COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 8 Mar 2001

Vol. 3 No. 6

1999 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts.

Vote 25 - Department of the Environment and Local Government (Resumed).

Mr. Jimmy Farrelly (Secretary General, Department of the Environment and Local Government) further examined.

Acting Chairman

Item 8 is the 1999 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts - Vote 25, resumed. We will also examine item 9, a report on value for money examination of the driver testing service, a report of the Department of the Environment and Local Government, resumed, and the report on value for money on special housing aid for the elderly. We will also deal with item 11, the Office of Public Works.

I welcome Mr. Farrelly, Secretary General, back again and ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Farrelly

I am accompanied by John Cullen, assistant secretary, local government; Ian Keating, finance officer; Tom Corcoran, assistant secretary, housing; Niall Callan, assistant secretary, roads; and Liam Dolan, principal officer, driver testing.

Acting Chairman

The correspondence from the Department has been circulated - details on the affordable housing scheme, the essential repairs grants scheme and the improvement works in lieu of local authority housing schemes - following concerns raised by the Chairman and Deputies McCormack and Guildea at the last meeting. We have correspondence from the Secretary General's Department enclosing details on the cost to date of the East Link and West Link, the receipts to the Exchequer from toll roads and details of toll road revenues. This information was requested by Deputy Durkan when the Secretary General last appeared.

I remind witnesses that they do not enjoy absolute privilege and the attention of members and witnesses is drawn to the fact that, as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. A list of those has been circulated to members. For the most part, these rights may only be exercised with the consent of the committee. Persons invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any person identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of these rights and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice. Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I now call the Comptroller and Auditor General to comment on paragraph 24.

Paragraph 24 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

The local government audit - LGA - service is responsible for the audit of the accounts of all local authorities. The LGA reports are submitted to the Department of the Environment and Local Government and to the local authorities and form part of the controls exercised by the Department in ensuring that procedures for the spending of public moneys are satisfactory. In 1999, local authorities received £577 million from the Vote and an additional £593 million from the local government fund. Copies of the audit reports are made available to me in my capacity as auditor of the Department. All LGA reports for the main local authorities for 1997 and 1998 with the exception of those for Wicklow County Council have been furnished to me.

In my previous reports I provided information relating to some of the matters on which the LGAs have critically commented in their reports on the audit of local authorities. I noted the following in my review of the 1998 reports:

In contrast to previous years, there were only a few instances where the LGAs found evidence that excess expenditure had been approved by the local authorities after it had occurred.

There was less criticism than in previous years regarding unsatisfactory collection yields on local authority service charges and housing rents and annuities.

The work of the internal auditors in local authorities is in some cases hindered by lack of resources or delayed appointments.

The situation with regard to deficits on capital account, referred to in earlier reports, continued into 1998 with many local authorities reporting specifically very large unfounded debit balances and other balances where it was unclear as to whether the deficits would be funded. Most capital projects are funded by the Department. The LGAs do not always indicate in their reports the precise breakdown between funded and unfunded balances, so the true extent of the unfunded amount is not always clear.

As is the case with other auditors of public bodies falling within the scope of the Prompt Payments Act, 1997, LGAs are required to report their opinion on whether local authorities have complied with the terms of the Act. Of the 38 prompt payments reports examined, seven had been qualified by the LGAs while critical comments had been made in seven others.

Mr. Purcell

The Vote was last considered on 16 January when unfortunately I was not able to be present. I have reviewed the transcript of that meeting. Three main items were examined by the committee, one of which was housing. It was indicated at that meeting that that would be the main focus of this resumed hearing. Issues relating to roads were also dealt with at that meeting. The position regarding the local government audit service was also referred to. I am not sure how the committee wants to take it from there but it indicated that housing would be the main focus of the resumed hearing on this matter.

Acting Chairman

On that point, the Chairman and a number of members raised specific issues and information has been circulated. The unfortunate situation today is that this meeting is clashing with the debate on the Finance Bill. A number of members, including the Chairman, are involved with it and it is posing a difficulty for us. We will try to re-examine the questions raised. The primary difficulty that arose on the last occasion was the issue of homelessness, with people being kept in bed and breakfast accommodation and hostels and many without accommodation walking the streets. There was a question of asking some local authorities for their side of the story and how they would deal with the matter but none of the local authorities has been pursued yet. Has Mr. Farrelly an up-date on the issue?

Mr. Farrelly

I have circulated a statement which deals with the issue to some extent. Extensive work is ongoing in relation to homelessness. An integrated strategy on homelessness was published by the Government in May 2000. The strategy is a new approach to the way in which services for the homeless are to be planned and delivered. It aims to provide an integrated response which is important in the case of dealing with the homeless from all the statutory and voluntary agencies involved in it. If we are to deal effectively with the homeless issue it is not a question of one Department or agency dealing with it, whether it is the Department of the Environment and Local Government, the Department of Health and Children, health authorities, voluntary bodies or whomsoever. The proposal is to provide services for the homeless on the basis of three-year action plans which are to be prepared and drawn up at city and county level. The plans will set out how accommodation, house settlement and welfare services are to be provided to homeless persons by all the agencies involved. The three-year action plan for the Dublin area was adopted by Dublin local authorities and other local authorities. The city authorities are in the process of finalising their plans.

Capital funding will be doubled from £20 million to £40 million over the next five years.

Voluntary bodies will continue to have capital funding available under the various programmes we run. Extra money is being provided and an extra £6 million per annum in current funding is available also to support the activities of these bodies. While I am not speaking directly for it, additional funds will be made available also by the Department of Health and Children to fund the necessary care and support services for homeless people.

Importantly, from the viewpoint of the committee, if we are to take this issue seriously, a comprehensive strategy on the prevention of homelessness is currently being developed and will be published shortly. This comprehensive strategy, which is currently being prepared by the Department of Health and Children, will also deal with the question of youth homelessness. I know that the problem of homeless children has been referred to in the Houses but a strategy on that is being prepared by the Department of Health and Children, which has responsibility for homeless people under the age of 18.

There is major activity in dealing with the homeless problem. In Dublin - I referred to this on the last occasion - a number of Dublin Corporation vehicles travel through the city at night offering to pick up homeless people and take them to hostels. By and large, the response to that offer can be limited on occasions. There might be a number of refusals. It may surprise some people but the de facto position is that in their tours around the city in recent times, the largest number of homeless people they encountered on the streets on any one night was 26. The most people who used the service on any night was eight. In other words, they were offering to bring these people to overnight accommodation but the maximum number on a particular night was 26. The maximum on any occasion on which the service was availed of was eight. There are a number of nights when nobody wants the service but at the same time it is an important development, especially in bad weather conditions such as frost, rain etc., which we experienced regularly this winter.

The homeless issue is rightly and appropriately being taken seriously. We are dealing with the most disadvantaged group of people and we have come a long way in terms of the strategies, policies, services and efforts being made to deal with the problem. In that regard, I commend the different agencies and voluntary bodies in particular which are doing great work in this area, including health authorities and the Department of Health and Children. It is accepted by all of us that to effectively deal with this problem unified action is required. I would be pleased to answer questions from the floor.

Acting Chairman

Before calling Deputy Bell, I want to ask one question. You say there will be an integrated approach to this issue but is there an interdepartmental approach to it? We are finding more and more that there is a need for an interdepartmental approach on issues. Up to now, people tended to confine themselves to their own responsibility. We need not just an integrated approach on paper but people working together.

Mr. Farrelly

There is a cross-departmental task force chaired by our Department.

Acting Chairman

That is excellent. I call Deputy Bell.

Deputy Bell

I am interested in what the Secretary General said about homeless people. He referred to 26 homeless people in the whole of Dublin city.

Mr. Farrelly

No, I did not say that. I said that when the corporation toured the streets at night looking for people who were sleeping rough on a particular night, the maximum number they came across was 26. To go back to the survey that was done on homelessness, there was an amended definition of "homeless" which includes people with no homes who sleep with relations or friends. What I am talking about here is people sleeping in doorways on the streets of Dublin.

Deputy Bell

There are 26 too many as far as I am concerned but the voluntary agencies are creating the impression, certainly publicly, that the number of homeless people, particularly in the main urban areas, is substantially more than 26. Is Mr. Farrelly satisfied that that is an accurate figure?

Mr. Farrelly

I would say 26 is the number at a particular time when the corporation travels through the city. I accept that there are more people, if counted over a period of time, who will be homeless on the streets. At the time the corporation circulated, however, a number of those people may have gone into hostels for the night, depending on the weather conditions. That is not to say these people are not homeless.

Deputy Bell

Will Mr. Farrelly outline the drill in terms of the inspectors who search for people who are homeless or sleeping rough, as he rightly calls it? What exactly do they do when they find 26 people on the streets? Do they leave them there or is there some methodology of dealing with that?

Mr. Farrelly

No, they offer them accommodation. They would offer to take the 26 people they come across to accommodation for the night.

Deputy Bell

For the night.

Mr. Farrelly

Just for the night.

Deputy Bell

What is the follow-up on that? They put them into a hostel and pay the cost of that but what happens the next night? Are they back on the streets again?

Mr. Farrelly

In general the people picked up in those circumstances are people who are slow to move into accommodation. The Deputy can take it that, by and large, they will move on to the streets the following morning. Those who take up this offer probably do so in circumstances where the conditions are such that they are prepared to accept help on that occasion.

Deputy Bell

It has been a particularly bad year for anyone who is sleeping rough.

Mr. Farrelly

I am not trying to minimise this problem.

Deputy Bell

I understand that.

Mr. Farrelly

There is a problem and the measures I have spelled out to deal with it are necessary. I am not trying to minimise the problem. I am just outlining the de facto position in terms of what these people found when they toured the streets of Dublin.

Deputy Bell

In a number of areas local authorities subvent voluntary organisations which provide accommodation for homeless people. Is there a policy in the Department in that regard? I know that some local authorities pay X amount out of the Estimates each year. Is that type of accommodation not available in Dublin, Cork and other cities?

Mr. Farrelly

We encourage voluntary bodies to do that because the experience of dealing with homeless people has shown that the support of voluntary bodies is needed. These are a category of people who are best dealt with by voluntary bodies in terms of the care and support they give them outside the more formal, regulatory, institutionalised type of systems. We encourage voluntary bodies to provide accommodation and we recoup up to 95% of the cost of that accommodation. As of now, capital funds are available to Dublin Corporation to provide two hostels - I referred to them earlier as wet type hostels - for people at the lower end of the homeless category. They could have alcohol or drug problems or whatever.

Deputy Bell

Those of us who have been involved in local authorities know that people who are homeless may not be sleeping on the side of the road, in cars or whatever. There is a problem with the lack of housing and the ever-growing numbers on waiting lists for local authority houses. I would like Mr. Farrelly to comment, from a policy point of view, on the fact that Dundalk local authority paid £3 million to provide emergency housing by buying 28 houses in the private sector. I understand the position is similar in Enniscorthy. I further understand, from a value for money point of view given the current cost of developing land and providing water, sewerage and other infrastructure, that it can be as cheap in some areas to buy houses in the private sector from private builders. I do not refer to second-hand houses being bought back by local authorities, but new houses in private estates being bought in bulk. Will Mr. Farrelly indicate if that is now official policy?

Mr. Farrelly

We are totally supportive of that approach. We refer to it as turn-key operations. A number of local authorities are successfully doing that now. They do a deal with a builder who has provided 20 new houses etc. As far as the Department is concerned, we encourage and totally support that policy. This comes back to the various difficulties that exist in current circumstances. One of these is the capacity constraints involved in getting builders who are occupied in building in the private sector to build for local authorities. Other difficulties are the time factor and the objection factor locally to the building of local authority houses. There is an attitude where people say that more local authority houses are needed and that more should be done, but when it comes to determining that they will be built in a certain location, one normally gets the "not in my backyard" factor.

This is an effort to broaden the possibilities for meeting social housing needs. We encourage them on two fronts. Although the Deputy said he was not referring to this situation, local authorities also buy existing houses. In the turn-key operation, local authorities do a deal with a builder who has developed houses. This is a necessary development if we are to up the scale of meeting social housing needs.

Deputy Bell

I am glad to hear that. Are county managers throughout the country aware that this is the Department's official policy?

Mr. Farrelly

They would be painfully aware because of our position on the provision of local authority social housing. I have no difficulty in saying that we are somewhat disappointed with the output figures for last year. We have had ongoing and regular discussions at ministerial level, my level and assistant secretary general level and county managers are well aware of it.

Deputy Bell

I asked the question because it is important that this matter is discussed publicly. If that is the Department's official policy and Mr. Farrelly is supportive of it, it is strange that the housing lists in almost every local authority area, particularly in the main urban areas, have substantially increased over recent years. There is a number of reasons for this, including the cost of new housing and the number of asylum seekers who are taking up accommodation that would usually be available. The policy should be made known to every local authority because over the past month I spoke to at least 12 members of local authorities who were unaware of it.

Mr. Farrelly

I can give the Deputy a categorical assurance that managements within local authorities are aware of it.

Deputy Bell

I take Mr. Farrelly's word on it.

Mr. Farrelly

As I said, the approach to dealing with the social housing problem cannot follow the traditional, historic lines of building huge local authority housing schemes. It requires a better social mix and not relying on a building programme alone. I am delighted the Deputy supports this type of operation. It also involves the voluntary sector in providing housing on an increasing scale.

Deputy Bell

The reason the matter is so dear to my heart is that over 20 years ago I went on a deputation with the mayor of Drogheda to the Custom House to the then Minister for Local Government, the late Jimmy Tully, who sanctioned that, but no private houses were bought in my constituency - I do not know the position in other constituencies - until recent months in Dundalk. The managers may have been aware of the policy, but they did not apply it.

Mr. Farrelly

It is happening on an increasing scale, but not to the extent I would like. We are doing everything possible to encourage it because if we are to increase the output of housing on the social side of the market, we must draw on every possibility. However, it will be subject to the same type of difficulties we are experiencing locally in relation to building local authority houses. When it comes to planning etc. there are increasing delays in relation to the provision of social housing.

Deputy Ardagh

Regarding the 26 homeless people, is there a reluctance on the part of some of them to go into a hostel or accept other accommodation?

Mr. Farrelly

Absolutely.

Deputy Ardagh

Do these homeless people have associated problems, such as psychological or drink problems?

Mr. Farrelly

Drink and drugs can be a problem. In that regard, our approach is that we provided capital funding to Dublin Corporation to buy two hostels that would give greater freedom to these people and they could come in and avail of the accommodation. They could possibly also get a greater element of support in a non-disciplined way. One cannot take those people into accommodation and attempt to set rules for dealing with them. It will not work and they will not avail of it if that is the situation.

Deputy Ardagh

Thankfully, it does not involve anybody here, but I can think of somebody who might have a good few drinks and bed down in a porchway. Is there any way that the local authority could emulate what the Simon Community does in this area by providing blankets or an improvement in the physical conditions of the people concerned? I appreciate one cannot forcibly bring a person to accommodation that anybody else thinks he or she requires. However, could a system be put in place regarding the physical facilities that are needed at particular locations? It is a difficult problem and there are no easy answers to it. However, perhaps there could be some innovative ways of dealing with it. I do not suggest the Department should have responsibility for it, but thought on it is needed. Are there any comments Mr. Farrelly can make in that regard?

Mr. Farrelly

We are totally supportive of the operations of organisations like the Simon Community and the Salvation Army. They do fantastic work which the public sector system, comprising local authorities, health boards etc., is incapable of doing. We fund the operations of the voluntary bodies to a certain extent. They give out sleeping bags and blankets. The difficulty is that they are hidden behind hedges during the day and they often disappear. There is problem because if it involves one's shop door way, one would not be too pleased about it. The voluntary bodies do great work in terms of giving out food, blankets and sleeping bags.

Deputy Ardagh

Costs are involved on a nightly basis, such as the cost of a sleeping bag, even if bought in bulk, but it is the type of cost we must bear. It is essential these people are not allowed stay in conditions where they could die of hypothermia or something similar, for example, where they have taken alcohol or drugs, and that the best physical conditions are provided for these people who are sick. Does Mr. Farrelly believe sufficient places exist for the homeless who wish to avail of places at night?

Mr. Farrelly

There is clearly a need for more. We are constantly getting more. There was one opened near Clonliffe Road in Drumcondra towards the beginning of this year. There is definitely a need for more and we are prepared to fund more. There is the difficulty, as always in society today - all of us might have to examine to some extent our consciences on it - that we are happy on a general basis to say we support this, but when a local authority tries to buy or get accommodation for an operation like this, it gets little support. They will certainly get no support in the area. Hence, that is where the voluntary bodies come in because they can be more successful at that type of operation and, hence, our attitude is to fund the voluntary bodies to a large extent in doing that and to encourage them to do it. There is another reason for the voluntary bodies as well. They are capable of giving the type of support in this situation which official systems often are not capable of doing

Deputy Ardagh

Twenty six is a very specific number of people who are homeless and sleeping rough. They would try to sleep rough in places where they would not come to public notice. This was the minimum number. That number could have doubled or quadrupled.

Mr. Farrelly

In fairness, and maybe I should have given further information to Deputy Bell as well, it was 26 who were found at that particular time. That is not to say there is not someone in the middle of the Phoenix Park or somewhere sleeping rough that no one can pick up. It is 26 out of what we estimate is a total figure of 200 in Dublin who are drifting in and out. They may be sleeping rough one night and not the next. It is that type of operation. It is 26 out of what we would see as a total of 200. Twenty six is a count on a particular night in accessible locations.

Deputy Ardagh

The figure Mr. Farrelly estimates of people who sleep rough is 200?

Mr. Farrelly

Two hundred drifting in and out. If one goes out every night, one will not see anything like 200, but if one counts over a number of weeks, three or four, for example, and one identifies people, one will probably count 200 which at some stage in that period of time are sleeping rough.

Deputy Ardagh

What is the basic core figure of the numbers sleeping rough at any one time?

Mr. Farrelly

It varies and the figure of 26 is for people in difficult situations sleeping rough who are picked up on the particular night. That is not to say there are not a few others who are not found. In fairness, the voluntary bodies are successful in identifying where people are sleeping rough and can reach them.

Deputy Ardagh

On the night the 26 bodies were seen and identified sleeping rough, was there an indication of the level of occupancy in the hostels that they would otherwise go into on that night?

Mr. Farrelly

I am afraid I do not have that information.

Deputy Ardagh

How many of those slept rough because they could not find accommodation?

Mr. Farrelly

This would be the hard core of people who sleep rough on the basis that, for whatever reasons, they do not find hostel accommodation acceptable. People who are homeless can be put into bed and breakfast accommodation as well. As against that, there is a core of people in more difficult circumstances who would be difficult to accommodate in bed and breakfast accommodation, but that is an option. Bed and breakfast accommodation has presented its difficulties in the past because very often it was a question of getting one's bed and breakfast and being expected to disappear then, whereas the policy now is to try to look for accommodation where there is not the obligation to move on.

Deputy Ardagh

What does the Department and Dublin Corporation in particular see as the goal to achieve for homelessness and people sleeping rough? I am not talking about an aspiration which is unattainable but something that is attainable.

Mr. Farrelly

In Dublin it is necessary to provide wet hostel accommodation which provides for people who may not be prepared to accept and go into the type of accommodation which is regulatory, has various rules and where one has to comply with various requirements. The idea was that we would provide £6 million and the hope was that two such hostels would be provided and that they would be supported by the voluntary bodies. The corporation has had difficulty in getting accommodation. While it might have gone after a certain type of accommodation, one cannot create a war in a local area by going in and buying. There has to be some element of acceptability.

Deputy Ardagh

There would also be the problem of staffing such a hostel.

Mr. Farrelly

The voluntary bodies would be supportive in that situation. The voluntary bodies are the people to focus on. That probably is becoming more difficult because, with the economy as it is, voluntary organisations are finding it increasingly difficult to continue. In fairness to people like the Salvation Army, there are people there who are continuously prepared to give of their time.

Deputy Ardagh

Is Mr. Farrelly prepared to finance sufficient beds in wet hostel accommodation to satisfy all the needs of the city and is there a financial problem in that regard?

Mr. Farrelly

Finances are not the problem. The finances are there, the problem is getting the accommodation.

Deputy Ardagh

The next issue with which I wish to deal is that of roads being dug up by telecommunications companies, the inconvenience caused to citizens and the cost to local authorities of managing the situation. Does Mr. Farrelly know if the Department has considered rating the ducting under the streets of Dublin? The land is owned by the local authority and that physical resource is being used by the telecommunications companies for ducting, which means it would have a net rental value in terms of rates. Has it been considered that the physical asset, the land under the city, is the basis for rates to be levied on these companies? The populace is dissatisfied with the cavalier approach of the companies to the destruction of pathways and roads, especially in Dublin.

Mr. Farrelly

Dublin Corporation currently operates under by-laws which attempt to control this aspect. The situation which exists is unsatisfactory. There is no point mincing my words in relation to the extent and regularity with which the streets of Dublin are being dug up. There are varying proposals to deal with the issue. First, the Department of Public Enterprise will bring forward legislation relating to the telecom sector. The intention is to deal with the question of road openings by that sector. There have been discussions between my Department and the Department of Public Enterprise on this issue. The expectation is that when the Bill is passed, there will be much tighter controls and much more onerous demands in terms of costs, funding and so on.

That brings me to another issue, that is, it is not just the telecom sector which is digging up the streets. Gas companies and various other companies are involved in this work. The public enterprise Bill is fairly advanced and when passed it is our intention, to the extent that it is necessary and where there is agreement on what should be done, to introduce a general requirement in relation to the digging up of streets.

On the valuation issue, the Valuation Bill is currently going through the House but it may be difficult to decide on the valuation factor.

Deputy Ardagh

British Telecom does this on telephone boxes, lamp posts and other facilities.

Mr. Farrelly

I do not think it does so in relation to road openings. However, I cannot say that with certainty. I take on board the point the Deputy is making, that is, these people are availing of a facility which to a large extent is free of charge, except for the cost to themselves of installation. To that extent, it seems reasonable, whether through a licensing system or whatever, that there would be a charge. We will give that aspect serious consideration.

Acting Chairman

I am reluctant to interrupt but we have two value for money reports. We set today aside for housing and we have deferred the driver test on two occasions, as well as the discussion on the elderly.

I have one or two questions on the housing issue. It is most disappointing to read in the submission that under the local authority housing programme only 3,200 units were built last year. I appreciate there were more than 5,000 starts in 2000, an increase of 3,800 on the 1999 figure. Nevertheless, the figure is disappointing. You expect a figure of 5,000 this year but can we home in on last year's output. The figure of 3,200 is very disappointing. At that stage, was the money available for the four year plan? Was there an impediment on going back to the Department? Have the new requirements under section 10 made a major impact on that outturn?

Mr. Farrelly

I agree 3,200 completions in 2000, which is not the final figure, is extremely disappointing. Money was not the problem. We met local authority managers on numerous occasions and the message we were given was to build the houses because money was not a problem. Funding was not a constraint.

On part 10 planning, this is a constraint. We have reached the stage where a considerable number of people do not want local authority housing in their area. This is the NIMBY factor. People are happy to be totally supportive of people in need of social housing until it impacts on themselves. One positive aspect of local authority housing - not to take away from the disappointing figure of 3,200 - is that 5,100 houses were under construction at the end of the year. The expectation for this year is that local authority housing completions will exceed 5,000, bearing in mind that 5,100 are under construction. We had discussions with managers at the end of the year when the full figures were not available and expressed our concerns. It is not a question of making excuses for the figure of 3,200. However, we could identify houses in certain areas that appeared to be finished but, unfortunately, they were not totally finished off and handed over. There were various reasons for this such as the wet weather in December. I will watch with interest the figures for the first quarter of this year.

The message has gone out to local authorities. We should not look at local authority housing in isolation because we are significantly building up the voluntary housing aspect, which looks positive.

Acting Chairman

Is Mr. Farrelly satisfied that this is finally taking off? We have talked about voluntary housing for generations.

Mr. Farrelly

I think it is taking off but we must up-date and review on a regular and ongoing basis the type of support and assistance being given to the voluntary bodies. This has been up-dated on a number of occasions recently and it has taken off. Our organisation is giving this aspect a fair in-house commitment.

Acting Chairman

Is Mr. Farrelly satisfied generally with local authority staff, including managers, architects, engineers and so on? Are they performing?

Mr. Farrelly

One must recognise the difficulties and limitations within which they operate. The difficulties on the local authority housing side are not fully appreciated throughout the system but there is opposition locally. There is difficulty in getting part 10 through and in getting contractors to tender for local authority housing. This brings me back to the points raised by members that we must find other ways of dealing with the turn-key operations whereby people buy privately built houses and so on. Of the 3,200 local authority houses last year, more than 900 of them were purchased as second-hand houses. That indicates the base from which we are coming.

Acting Chairman

Will Mr. Farrelly give a brief definition of affordable housing? Is this becoming a cliché? Are criteria laid down to cover what exactly is affordable housing?

Mr. Farrelly

The affordable housing scheme has been operating since the end of 1999. An income eligibility limit of £25,000 for a single person applies. The formula operated for joint income cases is complicated. One can qualify on two and a half times the main income plus once the secondary income.

Acting Chairman

What do we mean by affordable housing? Are we only evaluating people's income? Does affordable housing come within a certain price range?

Mr. Farrelly

No, it does not carry a price range. The income limit set determines the type of mortgage people can get. We are speaking of low cost private housing.

Deputy Ardagh

Does it not include land where sites are sold at a very reasonable price in comparison to other areas?

Mr. Farrelly

Yes, there is a site subsidy of up to £30,000 for Dublin and £25,000 for the rest of the country.

Acting Chairman

I was going to mention that. I must compliment Cork County Council on the magnificent work it is doing in this area. One could argue that land is more available to it than to the corporation. There is a huge demand for the work being done by Cork County Council. The question of subsidised sites cuts out the section 10 requirement and makes land available. This is an area which deserves more promotion. Nobody will object to someone buying a site though objections are being made to the buying of private houses. In cases where only 20 or 30 sites are available there are three times the number of people seeking them. I do not want to prolong this issue as we must deal with the value for money reports. We will note this Vote.