COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 7 Mar 2002

Vol. 4 No. 7

2000 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts.

Vote 25 - Environment and Local Government (Resumed).

Mr. Niall Callan (Secretary General at the Department of the Environment and Local Government), Mr. Mark Griffin (Principal Officer at the Department of the Environment and Local Government) and Mr. David Smith (Assistant Principal Officer at the Department of the Environment and Local Government) called and examined.

Chairman

Representatives of the Department of the Environment and Local Government last appeared before the committee on 13 November 2001. Witnesses should be made aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege and should be apprised as follows: members and witnesses' attention is drawn to the fact that, as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, grants certain rights to persons identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members shall not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 149 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I call on Mr. Callan to introduce his officials.

Mr. Callan

With me are Mr. David Smith from the finance division of the Department and Mr. Mark Griffin who is principal officer in the housing policy section of the housing division.

Chairman

We also have Mr. Stephen O'Neill from the Department of Finance. I call on Mr. Purcell to re-introduce the 2000 accounts.

Mr. Purcell

As I understand it, the committee is primarily concerned with two main issues under this Vote arising from previous meetings. At its meeting of 13 November 2001, the committee deferred consideration of Vote 25 pending the receipt of additional information on the Jeannie Johnston project, which members will recall involved the injection of Exchequer moneys from a number of different sources. The Department of the Environment and Local Government has an indirect interest in the project through its oversight of the finances of local authorities, in this case in particular Kerry County Council and Tralee Urban District Council, which gave substantial loan guarantees to the project. In the case of Kerry County Council, it had given a commitment to fund any operational losses that may be required to ensure the successful operation of the project for a period of ten years.

As the committee will be aware, it was initially part of the funding of local authorities to still provide it from central government in one form or another. I was concerned lest the ultimate liabilities might fall to be met by the Exchequer and in response to my inquiries on this matter, the Accounting Officer informed me that the Department had started to gather information from all local authorities in relation to their involvement in projects, which are sponsored by Departments and State agencies, with a view to formulating future departmental policy in this area.

The second issue relates to the operation of planning systems. Last December, representatives of An Bord Pleanála appeared before the committee for the first time when the concerns of the members were aired. Representatives of An Taisce also gave evidence to the committee at that meeting. As I recall, the committee was interested in hearing the Department's view on value for money aspects of the planning system. In that respect, I should again also mention that I am finalising a report on how well the appeals system is managed and on the evaluation of its effectiveness. I have recently received the views of the Department and An Bord Pleanála on the draft report and so I will be in a position to sign the final report within the next week or two.

As well as these two issues, the Accounting Officer has also supplied information to the committee in response to requests from members at the November meeting. They cover things like housing starts and development levies. That is as much as I can interpret from the deferment of the consideration of the Vote.

Chairman

Mr. Callan, do you wish to make some observations on what the Comptroller and Auditor General has said.

Mr. Callan

The issues mentioned by the Comptroller are to some extent open ones between us following our earlier discussions and the discussions the committee has had with the Accounting Officer for the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources in relation to the Jeannie Johnston and the chairman of An Bord Pleanála in relation to the planning system.

I had not thought to add to my earlier written statement that I provided to the committee on 13 November 2001. This covered the Jeannie Johnston project as seen from the perspective of my Department at that time. I can add a little to that by way of update in that the exposure of the Kerry local authorities, both Kerry County Council and Tralee Urban District Council to this project has risen slightly by about €100,000 on the estimate then made by the Attorney General of £3.6 million, I think it was. This is in token of the increased loan charges arising because of the lapse of time and because of a certain amount of further project management input provided so far without recompense by the local authorities to the project.

In addition we have been continuing our trawl of local authorities more generally to elicit information about the extent of guarantees and similar supports to projects of this kind. That is, projects being promoted in various local authority areas for the benefit of community, tourism, heritage and other purposes. In practical terms, we have now arrived at as complete a list of projects as we can generate at this stage, which are being supported by local authority guarantees and other means. That can be made available to the committee now, if it is of interest.

My general remarks as set out in a statement of 13 November to the committee in relation to this matter still obtain. On the one hand, the Oireachtas has consciously relaxed the ultra vires rule bearing on local authorities and assigned them a general competence to act in the interest of their communities. Action under these powers does not necessarily require direct sanction from my Department or from other central Departments. The exception would occur when resort to borrowing by a local authority is directly occasioned by the wish to support community based projects in a particular way. At least since 1960 and it will continue until the new local government legislation which we are introducing gradually at this time, there is a legal requirement that any local authority borrowing for any purpose, including overdraft, is subject to the sanction of the Minister for the Environment and Local Government or other appropriate Minister. However, direct borrowing by the Kerry local authority has neither been necessary nor sought in the case of the Jeanie Johnston project. Therefore, the matter did not come formally to my Department for approval.

The committee will be well aware that, for practical reasons, the Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources and his Department have, in practice, been exercising leadership on behalf of central Government in relation to the aftermath of the unhappy situation that developed around this project. The committee will know that following completion of the report of the focus group referred to in the earlier analysis of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the marine Vote, the Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources has been considering a way forward for the Jeanie Johnston project, and has brought the issues involved to the attention of Government. As already announced by the Minister, he now considers that a structured winding down of the Kerry County Council-led project is the only practical way to avoid the forced disposal of the Jeanie Johnston vessel and the winding up of the promoting company. The Minister is satisfied that the company should work urgently with Kerry County Council to identify a practical solution to the immediate financial crisis facing the project.

Meanwhile, the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources is working with all relevant stakeholders, including my Department, to support Kerry County Council and the company in this initiative. Active efforts involving the Kerry local authorities and a number of State Departments and agencies concerned are now reaching the end game of an attempt to work out a viable rescue plan for this project. My Department will co-operate in those initiatives and it will also co-operate in the post mortem which must take place to discover how this project got into the difficulties which have become so well publicised, and what lessons must be learned from a project management and credibility perspective to address similar projects in the future.

My Department, in the context of the wider powers now available to local authorities to support community-based initiatives, had some time ago urged caution on the issue of guarantees and on analysing the merits of investing in and supporting projects of this kind. The Department reiterated this advice to local authorities in mid-2001 and that is very much in the Department's mind in its discussions with the county managers' association. There is a new structure in the Department by which there are meetings under various divisional headings with the county managers' association. Depending on the solutions that are put in place to resolve the present impasse besetting the Jeanie Johnston project, my Department will then co-operate with the Department of Finance and other Departments in developing better guidelines for local authorities. The Department wishes in the future to become involved with projects enjoying multiple support such as the present one. That is what I want to say at the outset about the Jeanie Johnston. Obviously, there are other topics on which the Comptroller and Auditor General has touched on which I will briefly elaborate.

Chairman

It was decided at the start of the meeting that we are discussing tourism, sport and recreation on 26 March. Deputy Durkan referred to the Jeanie Johnston project and we did not close that subject. Despite having met the relevant organisations previously, we will be having a comprehensive discussion on 26 March on that issue, with all the players invited to the committee.

Deputy C. Lenihan

That is fine.

Deputy Durkan

We will leave it until then.

Deputy M. Ahern

I mention an item that will be of interest to every politician, especially with a general election coming up. Yesterday, or the day before, when people were canvassing in one of the towns in my constituency, Mallow, they were approached by a litter warden who told them that if they did not stop handing out literature, he would prosecute them. The matter was followed up with the urban council which said that under section 21 of the Litter Pollution Act, 1997, the warden was authorised to stop people from canvassing. Perhaps, we could have a note on that. I am sure it would be of interest to all Members in advance of the forthcoming election.

Mr. Callan

I will be pleased to do that. My recollection is that there has been some abatement of the litter pollution controls introduced by the Minister of the day in relation to general elections, and that this has become something of a convention. I do not have chapter and verse on it but I will be pleased to clarify that for the Deputy.

Deputy M. Ahern

Another item close to my heart, as well as being close to my house, is what is known as a material recovery facility. Such a facility is proposed for Rossmore in Carrigtwohill, County Cork. It will be on a four-acre covered over site. Rubbish will be brought from all parts of the county and sifted through at the site. Some of the rubbish will be re-usable, some will go into compost and some will be taken away again for landfill. Would funding come from Europe towards the construction of such a large facility? Does Mr. Callan's Department have any part to play in that or is it completely in the hands of the county council?

Mr. Callan

It is slightly delicate to relate this to one particular candidature in relation to grant assistance. However, in the context of a major new policy statement on recycling to be launched by the Minister shortly, details of a new and enhanced scheme of grant assistance for waste infrastructure, with particular reference to recovery infrastructure, will be announced. Money has already been earmarked for this in the national development plan. I am not certain whether European Regional Development Fund or other EU support is chalked up against that heading but it is in the NDP in any case, and there is some of that money in the Vote of the Department of the Environment and Local Government for the present year. The parameters of a new scheme will be announced very shortly.

Deputy M. Ahern

I will not mention anything about my friends in the corporation who sent it out into the county. What Mr. Callan is saying is that it is up to the county council to decide the position.

Mr. Callan

No, I was saying that my Department has some €24 million earmarked in its Vote this year for recycling grants. The Department has administered recycling grant schemes in the past but not on such a large scale. This has been envisaged since the present national development plan was launched two years ago but the details of the scheme which will be administered by my Department will be spelled out shortly. I do not have the administrative details, but if I did, it would not be appropriate for me to——

Deputy M. Ahern

They will be announced soon.

Mr. Callan

Yes.

Deputy C. Lenihan

I welcome Mr. Callan on his first appearance at the committee and apologise for detaining him.

Mr. Callan

It is my second appearance.

Deputy C. Lenihan

On the election issue, is the Department of the Environment and Local Government responsible for signs that appear outside polling stations on the day of a referendum? Is the matter co-ordinated?

Mr. Callan

Local sheriffs or officers appointed in each constituency have direct responsibility for such signs.

Deputy C. Lenihan

Does the Department issue instructions?

Mr. Callan

Yes.

Deputy C. Lenihan

What form do such guidelines take? I am worried, not about the result of this week's referendum, but about the poor turnout in certain areas. It appears that people living in suburbs find it difficult to establish the location of polling stations, which can lead to a lower turnout.

Deputy M. Ahern

Bring back politicians outside the gate.

Deputy C. Lenihan

People have busy lives and do not have much time to spare after they have attended to their duties at work and at home. It was quite difficult to spot polling stations yesterday, not because of a lack of posters, but because the words "polling station" were not visible and signage was inadequate. Signs similar to those sometimes put up by the Automobile Association of Ireland should be placed in visible locations to direct voters to polling stations. What are the precise guidelines?

Mr. Callan

I am not certain of the details of the guidelines, but I am aware, as I am sure all active politicians are, that regulations were introduced some years ago prohibiting the posting of election literature in the immediate vicinity of polling stations by interested parties. Apart from anything else, it is evident that polling stations look somewhat barer than was the case when there was no such prohibition. I will consult the——

Deputy C. Lenihan

What are the general guidelines? I strongly believe that polling stations should have a stronger visual impact. People are led to exhibitions by helpful AA signage which directs them to the correct location. People living in suburban areas want to vote, but they have limited time due to family, work and other responsibilities. This huge problem was very noticeable yesterday, as polling stations were not evident except to those of us whose business it is to know where they are. A system of advance notification should be in place, such as advertisements in local newspapers. If necessary, large signs should be erected in order that people cannot fail to know where polling stations are.

Mr. Callan

I sympathise with the Deputy's intention and will revisit the guidelines to see if they can be improved.

Deputy C. Lenihan

Some polling stations do not have the words "polling station" displayed. They may be displayed on the building, but not outside.

Mr. Callan

The idea of more widely dispersed advance signage could be slightly problematic, as there are many polling stations in densely populated areas. It may not be clear, from housing estate to housing estate, which is the relevant station.

Deputy C. Lenihan

Of course.

Mr. Callan

At least two schools are used in my area.

Deputy C. Lenihan

Can we look at the guidelines?

Mr. Callan

We will look at them.

Deputy C. Lenihan

Do you have the guidelines with you?

Mr. Callan

I do not have them.

Deputy C. Lenihan

Perhaps a copy could be sent to the committee.

Mr. Callan

They deal with many matters other than visibility, as all administrative details of electoral operations are included.

Deputy C. Lenihan

Is there an obligation to have a sign?

Mr. Callan

I am not absolutely sure. The thrust of certain initiatives taken some years ago was to take away some of the visual features associated with polling stations.

Deputy C. Lenihan

There must be a legal obligation in the guidelines to indicate somewhere on the building that it is a polling station.

Mr. Callan

I will look at that matter.

Deputy Dennehy

I have a number of questions, the first of which relates to Deputy Michael Ahern's point about material recovery facilities. To elaborate on his reference to Cork, there was a landfill on the Kinsale Road for about 36 years. For 30 years it was no more than a bog which was being filled with rubbish, in the old tradition. It was the most inappropriate spot in Cork city or county. Nowadays it would be the first site to be dismissed as a possible landfill. Bogs and waterways were the first places to be eliminated in the recent survey for a new site in County Cork. The Kinsale Road landfill, however, will be used for another 18 months. A commitment was made to people living in the area that, having suffered for 36 years, a material recovery facility would not be imposed on them and that £16 million would be spent on a public park there instead.

The Cork episode raised fears in relation to material recovery facilities which are, essentially, factories. Does the Department intend to educate the public about the difference between landfills and MRFs in order to deal with the resistance to them in many areas? RTE programmes and other means of education are biased in one way or another as those involved are interested in stopping or promoting material recovery. Is the Department considering initiating a process of education, including examples of how MRFs work in city centres in Norway and elsewhere? As three or four acres of land are needed for MRFs, 95% of them cannot be located in cities. It occurred to me during Deputy Ahern's contribution that education is needed in relation to material recovery facilities.

Deputy M. Ahern

People living in east Cork are aware of what is involved, but the big problem is the extra traffic that will be generated. I discussed MRFs with a man involved in landscaping and other environmental issues and he said there will be much smaller units in Europe within a couple of years. He argued that a massive facility, taking material from as far away as the border with counties Kerry and Limerick, places like Rockchapel and Charleville, may not be the best option in the long-term. Perhaps the matter will be examined and discussed with the county manager before a final decision is made on the scheme.

Deputy Dennehy

Deputy Ahern and I are coming from the same position on this matter. I know it was agreed between the city and county authorities that there would be a single MRF to cater for 350,000 tonnes of rubbish each year, but it did not represent good planning. The major task of collection and transport is the foremost of the two difficulties we face when disposing of refuse. Most people are aware that County Cork is 150 miles across. The suggestion, therefore, that material collected in Castletownbere or Bantry should be brought to the eastern side of the city to be recycled and sanitised and then transported a further 30 miles to Bottlehill seems wrong. I say that as an ordinary non-professional politician who serves the public. Deputy Ahern's argument is that three or four such facilities are needed, each capable of handling 100,000 tonnes of rubbish every year, one for each of the north, east and south of the county and one for the city.

Despite our best efforts to encourage recycling, mounds of rubbish grow as we become more affluent. Has the Department of the Environment and Local Government done anything to educate people about the difference between dumps, landfills and material recovery facilities? It is a critical aspect of this issue. The people who criticise us for not having material recovery facilities are also against incineration. They quote countries where incineration is standard and 80% or 90% of waste is burned. As we do not have incineration - long may that continue - we must have MRF. I agree with Deputy Michael Ahern, therefore, that the idea of transporting waste 100 miles appears crazy and we should treat it as close as possible to source. People in Cork city will be no more than 30 miles from the centre no matter where it is located. Travelling 100 miles in one direction and 30 miles back seems ludicrous.

Some of these decisions were made when MRF did not really mean anything to people. To most people at the time, it could have been a type of truck - I say that respectfully. They now know it means material recovery facility because it is quoted by engineers and others. There was insufficient knowledge about it when people visited Holland and elsewhere to look at these facilities. I wish to raise two other matters but first I would like to hear a response on this issue.

Chairman

Do you wish to raise them now?

Deputy Dennehy

As they are totally unrelated, I would like to get the question on refuse disposal out of the way first.

Mr. Callan

I thank Deputies Dennehy and Michael Ahern. The point about publicity and education is extremely well taken. In addition to some activity of this kind which we and individual local authorities had developed in the past, we have a particular ambition this year to develop a substantive programme of publicity and information in relation to waste management issues generally. In fact, a sum of £1 million or €1.27 million in the Department's Vote has been allocated for this purpose. As I do not believe it is fully earmarked yet in terms of the programmes being fully fleshed out, I will feed the Deputy's suggestion into the process. It is part of an effort which we believe is already overdue and which will continue beyond this year.

In terms of the new environment fund which will be resourced from the combined proceeds of the new levy on plastic bags and the new landfill levy to be introduced this year, the Minister has already made it clear that he intends to earmark a fair share of it for environmental publicity to ensure the public is educated about difficult issues, which the Deputy described, in the right way.

On the general issue of the correct scale, siting and logistics attaching to recovery activity and recovery industries, without appearing to distance myself too much from this, I must state that, in the first instance, these are matters to be thrashed out in the development of the county or regional waste management strategy. Considerations will be different in different regions and places and, possibly, in relation to different types of recycling. However, there is no doubt, as both Deputies stated, that the issue of transport is a sensitive one in relation to the location of major waste management facilities and proper account should be taken of it in the context of the planning permission process or, where applicable, the environmental impact assessment.

Deputy Dennehy

Administrators and, possibly, public representatives would prefer to try to put out one bush fire rather than four at one time and they have tended to choose the easy option of dealing with one rather than four groups of people. While I am not an expert on this, the amount of traffic generated, as correctly noted by Deputy Michael Ahern, in transporting 350 thousand tonnes of waste in one direction and returning with probably 60% of it in the other direction will require a huge number of heavy vehicles. We would need a very suitable location which we do not have. To put the shoe on the other foot, as I have said repeatedly, if somebody in another business sought permission to generate this kind of traffic, we in local authorities would refuse it in nine cases out of ten.

Another point, which relates to the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Rural Government, Deputy Molloy, is the question of the task force on special housing aid for the elderly. I declare my interest as company secretary of SHAFE which implements this scheme in Cork city and the surrounding 30 miles or thereabouts. I query the distribution of the funding and I will take the example of the Western Health Board and the Southern Health Board. The Southern Health Board, which caters for 503,000 people in Cork and Kerry, has been allocated £765,000 this year in voluntary housing aid for the elderly for carrying out repairs, whereas the Western Health Board's allocation is £1.47 million. I ask the witness to explain how these moneys are allocated. Is it on a pro rata or pro capita basis? This relates to page 182 of the document.

Mr. Callan

We had a helpful examination of this service recently by the Comptroller and a debate during the time of my predecessor. I do not think there is a mechanical key to allocation under this service any more than under many services which come within the Department's remit. Obviously, the funds available are finite and commitments also enter the equation. As we develop commitments to certain projects, we have to see them out, the result of which is that the pattern of allocation may not be completely transparent if taken on a single year basis. We made available nearly £9 million, or roughly €12 million, last year and a similar amount in the current year's budget, which we administer as equitably as possible in relation to the demands, scale, pace and merits of the various projects we receive from different parts of the country.

Deputy Dennehy

I have tried to rationalise this. The Southern Health Board is the second largest of the eight health boards. I thought perhaps it was related to the urban rural divide, but the Eastern Health Board, which is obviously totally urban, receives £1.3 million. In terms of geographical spread and population, Kerry probably has the most widely spread population in the country. I want the distribution of funding to be noted. There must be some rationale behind it. I have questioned it in the past because I do not believe the Southern Health Board is doing well under it.

I turn to the roads programme on page 171. I raised this issue with the National Roads Authority because it shares responsibility for the matter with the Department. Bearing in mind the carnage we experience year after year on the roads, is Mr. Callan satisfied that everybody is trying hard enough to do everything possible to stop it and improve the situation on the roads?

I specifically raised road forward warning signs and marking signs with the NRA. These are the large green ones, 45 of which have been smashed one way or another between Cork and Dublin. I noted a sign this morning half of which has been missing for three or four years. The signs in Cullahill, which were erected relatively recently at significant cost, are in tatters. The point I made to the NRA is that either it or the Department is responsible for design factors. Somebody decides, for example, that signs should be set back a certain distance from the public road. We have schedules laid out as to how things should be designed. Either the Department is incapable of designing signs that are safe from physical damage or it is not implementing the regime introduced for them. It is a manifestation of a lack of commitment to take proper care. I raised this 18 months ago and although I did not count the signs on my way here today, there has been no improvement. I can still read the majority of signs except where half of the signs is missing. I make the point to Mr. Callan that it indicates that there is a lack of ability in the NRA or the Department at the outset to design signs and a lack of initiative to repair or replace damaged signs. That is part of a general pattern of people taking things for granted and becoming careless.

In regard to the Road Transport Bill, 1998, one of my colleagues mentioned that very large amounts of money are being spent on traffic calming. It is incredible that dark grey concrete islands are being built which are hazards in themselves. The minimum I expected was that these islands would be fitted with reflective studs. Whether they are cast concrete or brick, this is easily done. No attempt is made to highlight these islands so another hazard is being created. I appreciate that if one is driving at 30 miles per hour, one should notice these islands but many of them are located on the outskirts of towns where people may not drive within the 30 mile per hour speed limit. The proof of my point can be observed in the number of beacons which lie smashed along roadways. My fear is that drivers will go over these pillars - as they obviously have, given that they have been damaged - and cause a more serious accident. We are not short of money, we are spending massive amounts of money on roads and this is a simple design aspect which could and should be resolved. The current situation displays negligence by the designers of these provisions. I have asked for a debate on this because these islands are being built everyday. I ask that Mr. Callan take immediate steps to highlight these pedestrian islands because they are jutting out into the roads and are highly dangerous. They are a manifestation of a bad approach to driving which we all display; we drive faster and some people use mobile phones while driving although I never do. Judge Mary Martin ruled that it seems to be legal to use mobile phones while driving but is there any legislation or control over the use of hand held mobile phones?

Chairman

I suggest that Mr. Callan takes a trip from Dublin to Cork so that drivers on that route can get an appreciation of these points.

Deputy Dennehy

He need not go any further than Monasterevin - there is half a sign there. The bottom half was in the ditch two years ago and has probably been sold by some of the people who pick these things up around the place.

Deputy Durkan

It has probably been recycled.

Deputy Dennehy

They are very expensive signs. I had a quotation of £100,000 to have one with a gantry erected on the south ring road in Cork. They do not come cheap. If we cannot design a safe road sign, what hope do we have of designing a road? I am not saying that in a nasty way but they are supposed to be engineers and we have bits dug up everywhere like the Kerry county boundary road which is being rebuilt. It seems we cannot design a set of forward-warning road signs. One will see the odd sign in every country that has been damaged by a protruding load on a truck but to see them in every town in Ireland means the Department or the NRA has not got it right.

Mr. Callan

I thank the Deputy for his observations. Without taking the trip that the Chairman has suggested, the valuable feedback he has given us as a customer of the national road network is something of which we should take account. Road safety has enjoyed increased priority in recent years and the benefits of intensified measures made under the various headings of enforcement, education and also engineering to try to reduce road deaths and serious injuries are, thankfully, visible. On the national road network, the NRA has a target under the Government strategy on road safety of completing low cost remedial works at 400 locations on the network over the five year period. They are well up to speed in implementing that target which will be met and possibly exceeded. The NRA has carried out a brief mid-term cost-benefit analysis of the benefits of certain area improvements and they are showing strong results. They are getting a much higher return than what would have been deemed satisfactory. I may be able to get that study and furnish it to the committee as a demonstration of the application and hard work which Deputy Dennehy described. It is not necessarily about spending hundreds of million of euros, it is about spending a few thousand in the right place, doing the right thing and sticking with it. In the past two years we have extended this approach to the non-national road network and are targeting the carrying out of minor improvement works at 152 locations this year at a cost of about €2.5 million.

I will bring the Deputy's concerns about the damage and neglect - if it is such - of important signs along the national road network to the attention of the NRA and see what is its response to his suggestions in terms of better design, maintenance and aftercare.

Chairman

The NRA will appear before the committee on 26 March.

Mr. Callan

I realise that, I had forgotten. It is good that has been arranged.

Chairman

I point that out for the benefit of the members.

Deputy Dennehy

I was chairman when I brought this to the attention of the chief executive of the NRA which was eight, nine or ten months ago. Perhaps coming from Mr. Callan, the NRA may take more notice in terms of interdepartmental co-operation.

Mr. Callan

I will bring that message to the chief executive in advance of his appearance here; he will be glad of the intelligence. Guidelines on traffic calming have been issued by the NRA recently in addition to the ongoing programmes of work. I will dig those out and make them available to Deputy Dennehy and I will see what they say in relation to design and reflectivity. If they do not address these matters which are an important part of the engineering dimension of our road safety programme, they can be taken up with the NRA.

On the prohibition of the use of hand held mobile phones while driving, the Government's position as stated in the safety strategy launched in 1998 is that the matter would be kept under review in light of developments in other countries and that, in the short-term, rather than moving towards an outright prohibition, we would insist on the development of publicity activity by the telecommunications industry to alert people to the responsible use of mobile phones while driving. A certain amount of publicity sponsored by the telecommunications industry has resulted.

As members know, Committee Stage of the Road Traffic Bill, 2001, is imminent. In that context, the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Molloy, has indicated he is seriously considering a regulatory prohibition on the use of hand held mobile phones and that he will decide on that issue before Report Stage. In the event of his deciding to regulate against this use of mobile phones, any offence arising under that new prohibition will count under the new system of penalty points. However, a decision has yet to be announced by the Minister of State.

Deputy Dennehy

I spoke out against the use of mobile phones while driving during the debate on the Bill but I wish to clarify my point. People may argue that drivers may eat ice-creams or smoke cigarettes while driving but there is a huge difference between the concentration level required for a telephone call and that required for these activities.

At one stage green markers, which were very helpful, were introduced on main roads indicating an upcoming turn-off to the left or right. They were yellow on the opposite side. In urban areas all footpaths should incorporate a reflective element for safety. All the steps being taken in terms of road safety are very welcome, but 400 people are still being killed every year. We are blasé, lazy and careless - I include myself in these remarks. Every year we talk about the problem but this number of people are killed. As a former industrial safety officer, I believe that every major happening should be fully analysed and treated as though a fatality had occurred. We tend to gloss over things. We may know who was involved in a crash but not look for the real reasons behind it. We all have a role to play and engineering works such as those mentioned by Mr. Callan, though of a minor nature, may have a huge benefit. A £1 billion highway is not needed, only a small amount of traffic calming. It is working, but we must not create extra hazards. That is what I am afraid we are doing in a number of cases.

Chairman

Deputy Durkan has been waiting patiently.

Deputy Durkan

I have many questions but unfortunately I must go into the House so I will cut them short. I do not wish to be personal but this Department would probably come out last or second last on a list of Departments in terms of division of services. I will give a classic example of this matter which really makes me angry. On the front page of one of yesterday's newspapers was a photograph of a dog whose name was allegedly on the voters' register.

Chairman

A boxer.

Deputy Durkan

Yes. This was deemed a great joke. However, to the people who were not on the register at all it was not a joke. It was a sad reflection on what has happened to the system. Stupid cynical exercises which portray the institutions of the State in an idiotic fashion should be discontinued as a matter of urgency. I do not care how or what steps are taken to achieve this. Some people travelled many miles to a polling station yesterday only to be refused a vote on the basis that they were not on the register although they had been on the register for the past 30 or 40 years. Yet a boxer dog who I am pretty sure did not register with the local authority had a vote.

The ultra vires rules were also mentioned earlier and I am aware of the changes in legislation. When a group or body begins to act ultra vires, the responsibility that should go with activities and actions is gone. The changes that have taken place are far from positive or helpful; in fact, the reverse is the case. The County Managers’ Association was also mentioned. Without any disrespect to county managers, the role of the local authority is being subverted. Local authority members have scant power. The local authority has become little more than a talking shop where grievances may be aired. Due to the centralised control system the members no longer have any power.

The Department of the Environment and Local Government now controls everything through the County Managers' Association. It may be said that this is not appropriate for this debate. However, it is a waste of public money to go through the kind of performances we are seeing at the moment. When the local authorities had no money and the Department had no money there was at least some semblance of democracy but this is now fast disappearing. Members know my views on the subject.

The issue of accident black spots is constantly being raised in this House, as it was when I was a local authority member. My colleague, Deputy Dennehy, has referred to road signs. I have never understood why there is major signage all over the country about accident black spots at which, if one checks, maybe 30 or 40 people have been killed. We spend a lot of time agonising over the carnage on the roads. It would easy to spend a little time and energy addressing the cause of the accidents at some of these black spots. The fact that they are there is a clear indication of failure of somebody, sometime, to address the issues for which he has responsibility. Once in my own constituency, 21 people were killed at one spot on a road where a simple remedial action could have addressed the issue. Eventually, it happened.

I will not talk about housing as I will just get upset. Obviously this area is being neglected. The National Roads Authority has taken over from local authorities in the implementation of major arterial routes and it also looks as though some agency is to take over from the local authorities in the area of housing. There is no doubt that the whole area of housing has fallen by the wayside, certainly in my constituency. There has been a complete failure to address the issue.

With every passing day, I find there are restrictions on the issues about which one may raise a question in the House. The usual story is that the Minister has no response. The Ceann Comhairle may say this but somebody somewhere must have responsibility. For example, at one of these meetings I happened to refer to the point raised by my colleague a few minutes ago about widening footpaths and narrowing roads to force traffic into bottlenecks as has happened between Aston Quay and Burgh Quay. I received three or four telephone calls and a letter the next day. A death-trap has been created because of the method used, but could I find out what it had cost, who authorised it or whence the funds came? No. At least two people have been killed in that location since the works were carried out.

I hate to be negative all the time but there are occasions when it is necessary to bring matters such as this to the attention of the people with direct responsibility for them. If I do not do so, someone else will. People did not have to search for polling stations ten years ago until someone decided that those red necks who hang around outside them at election time should be banished and things done like they are in more sophisticated societies. As a result, we will achieve the ultimate - people will not vote at all - and some commission will be established to ascertain the reason they no longer take an interest in the democratic process.

These points are the responsibility of the Department of the Environment and Local Government. I have raised them on countless occasions over the past ten years and they are still valid today.

Deputy Dennehy

Is there central monitoring of local authorities or is it up to each local authority to come up to its own standard? I berated Cork Corporation for the fact that people on its own housing transfer lists were still on the electoral registers at their old addresses seven years later. I drew to its attention the fact that one department was not speaking to the other. Are there any penalty points applied to local authorities with high levels of error?

Deputy Durkan

It is annoying that An Taisce is in receipt of limited funding from the Department of the Environment and Local Government, but is in a position to spend its time in a quasi-statutory capacity frustrating the wishes of people who live in rural areas for planning permission for their families. In a democracy we should have learned that people who live in rural areas wish to continue to live there and have a right to do so. The spatial and sustainable development plans have been put in place, both of which combine to give rise to a situation where a body, part statutory, part voluntary, appointed by the Department and approved by the Minister, has the right to guarantee itself 100% success in every situation in which it intervenes. In my constituency one individual made his name by throwing a dead sheep into the local authority offices. Now, he regularly visits the local authority representing a body which ensures people who live in rural areas cannot get planning permission to continue to live there. That is a conflict of interest, and, certainly, a waste of public money. The Department must cop on to the nonsense in many such situations where it tries to do a job to serve the public, but has another agency frustrating its objectives and those of the local authority. I am disappointed the Department ignores what is going on. An Bórd Pleanála seems to recognise that once a representative of An Taisce makes an objection to planning permission, it has a God given right to a positive response. An Taisce has done a great deal of good work that I would hate to see overturned by this kind of blackguardism.

Mr. Callan

We take every expression of criticism on shortcomings in the service by the Department seriously. I do not say that lightly. It is my objective to encourage a more positive view of what the Department is trying to do. Equally, I accept that we are not succeeding in all of the difficult tasks mandated to us as well as elected representatives would wish. I understand that situation and it is a challenge. We will try to do better.

The major thrust of the changes in local government structures in the past five years has been to recognise the position of county managers historically; the levers of power under the local government system were unduly weighted following 50 years of the operation of the county and city management Acts towards managers. Elected members need to have better support in the development and making of their policy contributions. To that end, we have put in place strategic policy committees at local authority level chaired in all cases by council members. We are dedicating more resources to elected members, including the payment of new representation allowances, and making an investment in the training of councillors. Changes of this kind will take time to show their value, but we are confident the directions we have set for the new reforms are worthwhile and we will work towards implementing them.

I agree that the nomenclature "accident black spot" is an admission of failure. We are now trying to address the problem in a more targeted and sophisticated way. I discussed some of the means involved with Deputy Dennehy. We have a programme on national and non-national networks of low cost engineering improvements that is showing significant benefits. The NRA is using a system of safety audits and checks on difficult stretches of existing roads while we have more sophisticated weather monitoring and ice detection systems in operation on stretches of new road that give better information to motorists. We must, however, do more. We must move away from the situation where it was good enough to say something was a problem and there it stood. I agree with the point which I will bring to the attention of those dealing with the road programmes.

A point was made in regard to a lack of information from the Department in reply to parliamentary questions. If I am not mistaken, we account for some 8% or 9% of all parliamentary questions answered. It is not a light workload. I hope we give good service to our Oireachtas customers in regard to the answers we provide. There are certain questions of competence and subsidiarity that arise from time to time and I hope they do not frustrate elected representatives in engaging in a real way with difficult issues.

I heard what has been said about the difficult situation near O'Connell Bridge. Our headquarters at the Custom House are not far away from the said location which we used to oversee from another building which we occupied for many years in O'Connell Bridge House.

Deputy Durkan

Are you aware of thetragedies that have occurred there?

Mr. Callan

We are well aware of the tragedies that have marked that spot. I understand new measures are being developed with a specialist accident management input by Dublin City Council. The Dublin Transportation Office was previously involved in the narrowing of the aperture onto Aston Quay with Dublin City Council some years ago. The situation is under review.

With regard to planning, I would like to answer for my Department's responsibilities in the area. I have listened to the criticism of An Bord Pleanála, essentially a quasi-judicial body involved in deciding on the merits of particular applications. It is not one which sets planning policies, assuch, and would not claim to be so. That taskis performed at local level by the relevant planning authority and at central level by my Department.

The Department has embarked on important work which is nearing finality in regard to the preparation of a national spatial strategy. I understand the points raised about rural housing which are very much part of the debate in regard to housing. It is a difficult issue. The scale of rural housing has increased in sympathy with economic growth. Many are finding that one-off rural housing is an effective and economical way of meeting their housing needs. We are far from wishing to deny that access to many people who wish to rely on it. On the other hand - as has been said - there cannot be an unfettered licence for every landowner who wishes to build houses in any way he or she pleases. That would not lead to an orderly situation, one which would in the medium or longer term enhance the quality of rural living. It would also place much greater burdens on public services such as water supply, which to some extent is already happening.

There are threats to the rural environment other than that posed by one-off rural housing which the planning system also has to address. We hope the forthcoming national spatial strategy will help to illuminate and address, in an approved way, some of these issues. Even if it does not come up with perfect answers or ones that suit everybody, at least it will advance the debate in a rational way.

Deputy Durkan

What worries me is that nowadays everything comes down to economics. It is more economical to house people in a certain fashion. The most economical way to house the entire population would be to build one major block and put everybody into it. There are several cities that have a far bigger population than this country. Some years ago An tAthair Micheál MacGréil referred to the little boxes in urban conurbations. There is also the question of quality of life and social costs. I will argue that matter with anybody at any time. I am not at all in favour of outlandish developments in the countryside, but there is an urgent need for the Department and all associated agencies to recognise that there is also a need to maintain the socio-economic structure of rural areas and not allow what happened in the United Kingdom to occur here.

Mr. Callan

All of these values properly contribute to the quality of the debate around these issues that has to be concluded in the next while. The planning system has always been about trade-offs and accommodations to some extent. The different needs of society encroach on each other and are not easily reconciled. In many respects planning is an attempt to deal with the different claims on the available land resources. I welcome the Deputy's comments on these issues.

Deputy Durkan

What about the voting dog?

Mr. Callan

We take seriously the points made regarding the electoral system. It is our objective to operate a first rate system in conjunction with the local authorities. Shortcomings such as this whenever they come to light will be taken very seriously.

Deputy Dennehy

Are there any national audits done with regard to the accuracy of the register? It seems to be becoming very slipshod. For years there was a reliance on the political parties to perform this task, but since the introduction of the rolling register they have backed off. Of 39 houses I visited in County Cork as part of a test there was an error rate of 50% in the electoral register. It was frightening for me because the houses were located in my locality, but that level of error would not be accepted by any organisation anywhere.

I am a member of Cork City Council and found that people transferred by that authority were on the new register. Even though they had been transferred by the organisation which held the relevant housing records, it did not manage to collate it with the franchise section. Does the Department keep any check on this area?

Mr. Callan

No. It has been an ongoing concern to improve the quality and accuracy of the register. We had statistical work carried out some time ago by the ESRI to help this process. We continue, with the local authorities, to refine the guidelines and develop new administrative mechanisms to try to improve the situation. The process will continue into the future. More recently the provisions in regard to the supplemental register have been relaxed whereby people can recover the situation, so to speak, up to quite a late stage. If through an earlier administrative error they were removed, they have a reasonable time within which to redress the problem. I hear the concerns expressed by Deputies Durkan and Dennehy to which I will try to respond as we take them seriously.

Deputy Dennehy

The day of the manual check by the local authority seems to be gone. I presume the franchise section was funded out of its own estimates and not supplemented by the Department. Increasing numbers of people are moving and more students are taking up temporary residence. However, even allowing for the number of mistakes, the situation is unreal. There would have been an outcry before now if we did not have the new register, because the error level is so high. It can be rectified. I called to a couple of dozen houses last night but most of the cases there involved young people coming on to the register. This matter was highlighted by the referendum because some people did not get cards. However, the level accepted by local authorities is not acceptable to me as a public representative and I have raised this with Cork Corporation.

Chairman

Much of the Department's advertising features the advice that people should register when they are 18 years of age. However, it is amazing how many people meet us and say that their child has turned 18, 19 or 20 but is not on the register. I have to ask these people if they asked their child to go on the register. There is an assumption on the part of many people that they should be automatically included, as if people are inspired to include them.

Deputy Dennehy is correct that this is a problem in urban areas because, quite often, even enthusiastic council officials operate by day. In urban areas, with many people working, there is nobody at home at that time. This leads to a patchy register of about eight or ten people on a housing estate that might have 30 houses, and the numbers are not in sequence. This problem requires some imagination on the part of the Department. The Department might get students to help it over the Easter holidays which are before the election.

The referendum was a warning notice to many people. Something may now be done but there is certainly a difficulty. In the past, political parties constantly updated their information but that is not found to the same extent now. Political parties simply cannot cope with the urban areas.

Mr. Callan

There are nearly three million names on the current register and that excludes those on the supplement. I should have said to Deputy Dennehy that the financing of this service is covered by the central fund and, ultimately, all the bills come back to the fund.

Deputy Dennehy

The Department is to give every political party a free mail shot as part of the legislation. I suggest, bearing in mind what the Chairman said, that households be contacted to confirm that family members are on the register. Some people are gone for 20 years, and more are not on it at all. I met a 23 year old lady last night who is not registered. I accept that this problem is the fault of those who do not register but the combination of these things is a problem, despite the money being spent in this area. I suggest a mail shot, as well as newspaper advertisements, perhaps for six months. Local authorities should allow their franchise officers to write to every household asking them whether the information provided is correct. It would only take half an hour's engineering to do this. Households could be asked if the correct people are registered.

Chairman

The Department could frank the letters as a reminder.

Deputy Dennehy

We would have to pay for that.

Mr. Callan

It is tempting to observe the potential in this area for e-government, and I believe that in some years we will have the benefit of that process. It is already the case with some local authorities that a person's position on the register can be checked on websites, and that will certainly tell a person if they are not on the register.

Deputy Dennehy

There was an infamous remark from one party to the effect that its supporters did not have e-mail.

Mr. Callan

We must progress in this direction and in a futuristic scenario, when the Reach project is fully fleshed out, citizens will be picked up in terms of their eligibility to vote when they reach the age of 18. We should move in that direction.

Deputy Dennehy

As an old fashioned practitioner, I respectfully suggest a mail shot. Instead of spending €0.5 million on newspaper advertisements, the Department might consider giving an equivalent amount to each local authority to do a mail shot. They may get responses in 90% of cases to tell them that their data is accurate.

I do not know how students are to be catered for. I am not exaggerating when I say that in the 39 houses I called to, I found one person registered at two of the houses but living in neither. There were four students in one house and five or six in the other. The error was compounded in that this guy was registered in two houses in a small estate of 39 houses because he owned the houses. Who did that? I presume that Cork County Council was the guilty party. However, in both of those houses, the students were not registered even though they were entitled to register. That is a small snapshot but it can be assumed that it is repeated, particularly throughout flatland.

There is a margin of error and some people who are not as honest as us could possibly use extra voting cards. That is a worry. I assure the committee that the level of error is running at a minimum of 5%. It is probably far higher in the places the Chairman mentioned. The Department should think about this problem. Public representatives have their own way of dealing with it but that involves a lot of foot-slogging. A mail shot is one solution but something should be done because this is wide open to manipulation. Anybody could pose as the gentleman in my example.

Chairman

The Department has a problem in the urban areas but the register is often accurate for rural boxes. There is a revenue inspector in my area who sends back an updated register to all politicians as well as to the council. That includes comprehensive data about who has passed on or who is to be deleted. It can be done.

I met a group last night which is involved in motor sport rallies. The group participates in about ten rallies per year; it gets a composite insurance policy to cover its drivers, but cannot get tax. There is a problem in that the group is dependent on the goodwill of local gardaí as regards stopping them for not having road tax on the rally cars. The group points out that there is an exception for the camping and caravan club which recognises its position. The motor sport group says that its members are prepared to tax their cars, but as the cars are only used ten days per year, there should be some mechanism in place. I wonder what mechanism is in place in the UK. There is a difficulty in that they can be stopped by gardaí if they are travelling from one stage of a rally to the next. I would like the matter to be investigated as my understanding is that the members have recognised composite insurance but cannot get road tax. Mr. Callan might look into that.

Mr. Callan

I will.

Chairman

My next point probably goes back to value for money matters. If the Department sanctions a large water scheme or a water scheme extension, does the Department monitor that scheme afterwards? There is a big waterworks scheme ongoing in Limerick city and, parallel with that, in County Limerick at the N69 and the Shannon estuary. I am not sure of the figures involved but the project can be quantified. It is at a place called Hegarty's Cross. It was brought to my attention when I met a group of people two weeks ago. They indicated that even though the water scheme has a guaranteed water flow, the water is stagnant. They cannot get a fire certificate from the council because they cannot get a connection to the water flowing outside their doors. Equally, many of those who anticipate connection have a problem with pollution of their wells. It is linked to a problem where a local community did not want water from Dromore Lake and the scheme seemed to stop in the middle of nowhere. I would like to know the cost involved. What will happen to the scheme? Is it true it is not working? Why can a place alongside it, Kilcornan community centre, not be connected to the water passing outside its door? I do not expect you to answer the question which I sprung on you, but when the people concerned told me about the problem I thought it was a crazy waste of millions of pounds to extend a water scheme, stop, and not have water flowing through it.

As you are aware - this is a question for the National Roads Authority at a later date - there has obviously been a scaling back of schemes for the present. On top of this there are many small schemes involving traffic calming measures on busy roads in places such as Abbeyfeale, Kildimo on the N69, Pallasgreen etc. for which Limerick County Council, like other county councils throughout the country, anticipated approval, all of which are on hold. I shall put this question to Mr. Tobin at a later date.

It would be appreciated if you would look into the issue of the motor rally to see what can be done and also if you could come back to me on the matter of the Shannon estuary extension to Hegarty's Cross. What is the ultimate cost? What will happen to the scheme? Is it true that no water flows through it?

Mr. Callan

I will certainly forward notes to the Chairman on all those issues.

Chairman

I am sorry if I was parochial, but I am very conscious of the issues involved.

Mr. Callan

Obviously, I cannot comment on the particular water scheme, but, in principle, it would always be a matter of concern for us if a major scheme, or any scheme for that matter, financed by the Department was not operating in accordance with specification. Certainly, our monitoring systems extend to validation. There is a serious case for going back to the contractor or consultant and addressing shortcomings in the design and-or construction of a scheme. That is done.

Chairman

I am not saying the county council was at fault in this case, but there was a problem in that people did not seem to want the water, even though the scheme went ahead. That was not necessarily their fault, but I would like to know the true position.

Mr. Callan

We will forward you a note on the specifics of the project.

Chairman

You mentioned in your response to the Comptroller and Auditor General that, following the Jeanie Johnston experience, you would ascertain from local authorities around the country whether there were any specific projects in which they were involved. You indicated you may give a list to members of the committee.

Mr. Callan

Yes. We will give it to the committee.

Chairman

Thank you. The Vote is noted. I thank Mr. Callan and his officials for the time they have given the committee.

The witnesses withdrew.

The Committee adjourned at 4.55 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 19 March 2002.