COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 1 Feb 2007

Chapter 3.1 — Garda Vehicles.

Mr. Noel Conroy (Commissioner of the Garda Síochána) and Mr. Seán Aylward (Secretary General, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform) called and examined.

Chairman

I welcome everyone to the meeting to discuss the 2005 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts, Vote 20 — Garda Síochána, Chapter 3.1, maintenance of Garda vehicles.

Witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. Their attention and that of members is drawn to the fact that, as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include: the right to give evidence; the right to produce and send documents to the committee; the right to appear before the committee, either in person or through a representative; the right to make a written or oral submission; the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents; and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee. Persons invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any person identified in the course of proceedings who is not present may have to be made aware of them and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings, if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation I should remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 156 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome the Commissioner and invite him to introduce his colleagues, followed by Mr. Aylward.

Commissioner Noel Conroy

Thank you. On my right is Chief Superintendent, Jim Jeffers, on my left, Michael Culhane, director of finance, and Brendan Foy, formerly of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and now with the Garda.

Mr. Seán Aylward

Thank you. To my right is Eugene Banks, principal officer, and to my left, John Lohan, principal officer.

Mr. Fred Foster

I am principal officer, sectoral policy division, at the Department of Finance.

Chairman

I ask Mr. Purcell to introduce Vote 20 and chapter 3.1 which reads:

3.1 Maintenance of Garda Vehicles

Outsourcing of Garda Vehicle Maintenance

A consultant's report on Transport Maintenance and Procurement Compliance in An Garda Síochána delivered in July 2002 recommended, inter alia, that An Garda Síochána “outsource the entire maintenance activity including management of the fleet, the contracts and costs, quality service performance management and compliance management to a national service provider or consortium.”

This recommendation was reiterated in the final report of the Garda Strategic Management Initiative Implementation Steering Group in February 2004. The thrust of these recommendations was that better value for money would be achieved through organising vehicle maintenance in this way.

During the course of audit in Spring 2006, I noted that the repair and maintenance of the Garda fleet, apart from vehicles maintained at the Garda transport garage, was arranged at District level and that this work was generally carried out by main dealers in each District. Competitive tendering did not take place for this maintenance work.

I asked the Accounting Officer why the key recommendation regarding the outsourcing of vehicle maintenance had not yet been implemented.

The Accounting Officer informed me that following the reports on Garda Transport in 2002, the understanding was that a contract for the outsourcing of the maintenance of the entire fleet with the exception of some security vehicles would be put in place sometime in 2003. In light of the complexity of outsourcing the Garda fleet of over 2,000 vehicles, as evidenced by the experience of other Police Forces, it was necessary to engage in lengthy discussions involving the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the consultants who had prepared the report and An Garda Síochána.

Following the consultant's report a process to draft a Request for Tender (RFT) commenced. Due to the ongoing discussions and a variety of technical reasons the RFT was not finalised within the planned timeframe. When all the factors had been considered it was decided that the project would be outsourced using a two-stage process. A pre-qualifying request for information was issued to the market and the responses were currently being evaluated and a RFT would be issued to the qualifying companies shortly.

This project was due to be completed this year and was being undertaken with the expert assistance of consultants.

He added that as the priority of the remaining small cohort of garage staff was to keep the Garda fleet in a roadworthy condition and ensure its maximum operational availability, staff were not available to organise or supervise a maintenance contract.

Maintenance Arrangements

I asked the Accounting Officer if he was satisfied that the arrangements to source vehicle maintenance with local main dealers without competitive tendering was conducive to getting value for money particularly in the Dublin area where there are a number of main dealers for the marques used by the Gardaí. In this regard, I noted that payments in the range €200,000 to €420,000 had been made to some dealers/maintenance firms in the Dublin area in the two years 2004 – 2005.

The Accounting Officer stated that for the vast number of Districts outside of Dublin and possibly Cork, there was no alternative to using the local main dealer. In the absence of a national contract whereby costs for servicing could be negotiated centrally, the local dealer would know that he was the only one capable of preserving the warranty and ensuring the safety of Garda members and the public. Otherwise vehicles would be absent from their Districts for long periods involving consequential costs in terms of fuel and time.

He noted that due to the wide geographic spread and the requirement to minimize downtime of Garda vehicles the nearest approved/or main dealers were utilized at a local level. He stated however, that as the average age of vehicle in the fleet was under 4 years, the majority was under warranty at any time and for this reason, it was considered essential that main dealers aligned to the particular manufacturers were used to preserve these warranties. This was the reason main dealers were used for scheduled maintenance and in order to ensure that members of An Garda Síochána could carry out their duties in safety and with confidence.

Investigation into Alleged Irregularities

In the course of audit, I became aware that an investigation was underway to establish the facts surrounding allegations of irregularity involving a main dealer in Dublin engaged to maintain some of the Garda fleet.

The Accounting Officer informed me that, in February 2006, the Garda Internal Audit Section conducted a preliminary examination of possible irregularities in the servicing and maintenance of a number of Garda vehicles by a contractor. This examination raised suspicions of improper procedures that may or may not amount to criminal behaviour, including

Overcharging for labour

Charging for parts not used

Using non genuine parts

Causing loss

Withholding warranty entitlements.

He said that in the course of the preliminary examination no evidence of criminal behaviour by members of An Garda Síochána or civilian support staff allocated to the Garda Transport Section came to light. In addition, no breaches of discipline in respect of members of An Garda Síochána had been identified to date. As a result of the Garda Internal Audit Section examination, the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation was requested to carry out a full criminal investigation into the matter. This investigation was ongoing.

Mr. John Purcell

Thank you, Chairman. On Vote 20, the net outturn for the year was just under €1.14 billion. Most of the expenditure under this Vote is on pay and pensions. In the year, pay accounted for nearly €800 million of that total. The sum for pensions was €215 million. The composition of the pay figure is interesting because approximately €550 million is spent on basic pay and the remaining €250 million or so forms part of the total remuneration of the Garda Síochána and is represented by overtime and the myriad of allowances payable in addition to basic pay. Overtime came in at €79 million for the year. The main allowances, those which are generally payable, are for rent, at €44 million, for night duty at €37 million and for Sunday working also approximately €37 million. The rest of the Vote is self-explanatory.

While the appropriation account has been prepared by Mr. Aylward, the Accounting Officer for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and signed by him on 31 March 2006, the Garda Commissioner became the Accounting Officer for the Vote by virtue of section 43 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005 when that section was activated by an order made by the Minister on 14 July 2006. The Act also provides for the establishment of an audit committee in line with best practice in the public and private sectors. The audit committee, together with the internal audit service, is intended to assist the Commissioner in his role as Accounting Officer. A senior member of my staff has attended a recent meeting of the audit committee.

In regard to Chapter 3.1, expenditure on the maintenance of the Garda fleet, excluding fuel, was in the region of €5.5 million in 2006. The chapter draws attention to the considerable delay in implementing recommendations designed to achieve better value for money in this area. The Garda fleet comprises approximately 2,200 vehicles, 1,600 of which are cars. The balance is made up of vans, motorcycles, minibuses, some 4x4s and a few trucks.

Historically, arrangements for the maintenance and repair of vehicles depended on whether they were based in Dublin or elsewhere in the country. The Dublin-based vehicles were maintained in the Garda transport garage in the Phoenix Park while work on those based outside Dublin was arranged at district level with local garages. It has long been recognised that the work carried out at the headquarters garage was much more expensive than work done commercially. I pointed this out in one of my first value for money reports in 1995 and suggested that an independent fleet management function accountable to Garda management would help to improve matters. Several subsequent studies were undertaken but no major programme of change was implemented in the transport section resulting from these studies in the following years, up to 2001 when consultants were brought in to examine the position.

In the next year they reported that potential annual savings of between €1.6 million and €2.5 million were achievable through outsourcing the maintenance of vehicles which were being maintained in the headquarters garage, through better management of the arrangements at commercial garages and through outsourcing the administration work to a fleet management organisation. These recommendations were endorsed in February 2004 by the Garda strategic management initiative implementation steering group. While there has been a significant shift in recent years to having most Dublin-based vehicles maintained at main dealers in the Dublin area rather than at the headquarters garage where activity is being scaled down, progress has been slow in implementing the recommendation on outsourcing the fleet management function and related activities. A request for information document for the provision of maintenance, repair and management services was issued in April 2006 with the intention of pre-qualifying suitable companies to provide the services for a period of three to five years. As a result of that exercise five companies qualified to bid for the business. A request for tenders is in the final stages of preparation and I understand that it is hoped to have it ready to issue to the five companies within the next month or so.

Pending these developments I had concerns that the current arrangements for sourcing vehicle maintenance with local main dealers in the Dublin area without competitive tendering was not conducive to getting value for money, particularly for those marques of vehicles most used by the Garda. They include Ford, Toyota and Opel for which there would be a choice of dealer in the area. At the time of my report, the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation was undertaking a full criminal investigation into possible irregularities in the servicing and maintenance of several Garda vehicles by a main dealer in the Dublin area. I understand that the investigation is not yet complete but the Commissioner will be able to enlighten the committee further on that.

Chairman

Will the Commissioner present his opening statement please?

Commissioner Conroy

The function of Accounting Officer for the Garda Síochána was transferred to me on 14 July 2006 in accordance with section 43 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005.

The structure of the Garda Síochána comprises a central headquarters, national support units and geographical operational units organised into six regions, 25 divisions, 109 districts and 703 sub-districts. That means that I have 703 stations. The strength of the Garda service on 31 December 2006 was 12,954 sworn members, inclusive of all ranks. In addition, there are 1,979 civilians employed in various administrative, professional and technical posts.

The phased increase in the strength of the Garda Síochána has led to a combined strength of both attested gardaí and trainees of 14,080 at the end of 2006. As part of the accelerated recruitment campaign, 1,125 students were inducted to the Garda College during 2005; 1,114 commenced training in 2006 and a further intake of 1,100 is planned in 2007 at a rate of 275 in each quarter.

In December 2006 the Government announced an extension of the accelerated recruitment campaign with a new target strength of 15,000 members. In support of this the Minister made regulations extending the retirement age from 57 to 60 for members of garda, sergeant and inspector ranks. Public confidence in the Garda Síochána, public safety in our communities and public accountability by the Garda Síochána are the performance benchmarks against which our policing strategy will be measured and justified.

In 2005 the overall budget for the Garda Vote, including a supplementary estimate of €31.7 million, amounted to €1.142 billion. In 2006 the Garda budget reached €1.275 billion while the 2007 budget is €1.41 billion. An appropriate level of funding is the key to ensuring the criminal justice system works effectively in tackling crime and public disorder. This funding facilities the continuation of a successful anti-crime measures targeted towards the prevention and detention of serious crime such as organised drug crime, racketeering and other criminal activities that give rise to serious community concerns.

In November 1997 the Government accepted in principle the recommendations set out in the report of the steering group on the efficiency and effectiveness of the Garda Síochána, which resulted from a review conducted within the framework of the strategic management initiative across the public service. The report contained many recommendations requiring the comprehensive development of issues relating to the organisation, operations, financing, performance and accountability of the Garda Síochána, including the future management of Garda transport maintenance operations, the processes for managing procurement compliance and the organisational structure and roles and responsibilities for the management of Garda transport activities.

The report recommended, inter alia, that the Garda Síochána should outsource the entire vehicle maintenance activity to a national service provider or consortium. A request for information, RFI, was issued on 16 May 2006 with the help of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Six companies applied and five were looked upon as being able to provide such a service. We are receiving assistance from experts in the field in preparing a request for tender, RFT, for these five companies and we will subsequently enter into a contract for the fleet. The 1,300 new vehicles purchased in 2006 will have a major impact on the Garda fleet profile, as approximately 80% of the fleet will now be under warranty and this has to be factored into the RFT to reflect the enhanced warranty and age profile of the fleet.

The investigation into alleged irregularities, involving a main dealer engaged to maintain a part of the Garda fleet referred to in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, is being conducted by the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation. Several statements have been taken on the servicing of the fleet and evidence is being gathered. It is a detailed investigation and it is hoped a file will go to the DPP for his consideration.

I will endeavour to respond to the committee's queries on these issues and the 2005 appropriation accounts for the Garda Vote.

Chairman

Thank you, Commissioner Conroy. May we publish your statement?

Commissioner Conroy

Yes.

Deputy Ardagh

I welcome Commissioner Conroy to his first meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts in his role as Accounting Officer of the Garda. I wish him success in this role.

What is the remuneration of the highest paid garda including overtime, rent allowance, night allowance and Sunday money?

In south Dublin, the Garda use of bicycles is tremendously effective allowing gardaí to get from place to place quickly. It allows them to stop on a regular basis to talk with young people and others while Garda cars cannot stop so easily. How many bicycles does the Garda have? There is, however, a question about the provision of bicycles. I believe more need to be out in situ, particularly in the Dublin area. Communities want to feel community policing is being done in an effective and transparent way. Are they as effective as I believe they are? Will more Garda bikes be rolled out?

Commissioner Conroy

In response to the first question on the average earning on overtime——

Deputy Ardagh

No, I asked about the highest.

Commissioner Conroy

In 2005, the highest amount of overtime earned by a garda was €45,058.

Deputy Ardagh

Did that include rent and night allowances?

Commissioner Conroy

No, that was just overtime.

Deputy Ardagh

Where was that garda based?

Commissioner Conroy

He was based in Dublin 24.

Deputy Ardagh

What is the average rent and night allowances and Sunday time on top of that?

Mr. Michael Culhane

Those allowances are fixed. I do not have the figures for the highest earner.

Deputy Ardagh

I asked for the total remuneration of the highest paid garda, including overtime, rent allowance, night allowance and Sunday money.

Mr. Culhane

I will have to come back with that information as I do not have it on hand.

Chairman

Mr. Culhane can send that to the committee in writing.

Deputy Ardagh

What is the average overtime payment?

Commissioner Conroy

In 2005 the highest earner in overtime in the rank of sergeant was €42,552.

Deputy Ardagh

I was asking for the average figure. The Commissioner said he had the figures for that.

Commissioner Conroy

The average overtime payment for the rank of garda is €5,917; for the rank of sergeant it is €8,665.

Deputy Ardagh

Overtime makes up €79 million of the €200 million of the total extra remuneration. To get a feel for the figures, it is necessary that the committee knows the highest amounts being paid for the other allowances. Are they significantly higher than what is paid for overtime?

Commissioner Conroy

Yes, in some cases that would be so, depending on a garda's length of service. The salary for a garda with three years service would be lower than that of a garda with five years service. All those matters will have to be taken into consideration when supplying that information.

Deputy Ardagh

Perhaps the Commissioner might address the question of the bicycles and their effectiveness.

Commissioner Conroy

We are continually increasing the number of bicycles and see that they are very beneficial, particularly in public order situations. They can enter parks in various parts of the city and larger towns across Ireland where we have had problems. Among our members, they are a very popular means of transport when it comes to dealing with problems. They are well equipped, with radios and the various capabilities to detain an individual, allowing gardaí to source transport if they wish a detained person to be taken to the Garda station.

Deputy Ardagh

How much does a fully equipped bicycle cost?

Commissioner Conroy

It is €500 for a bicycle, but fully equipped it would be €2,000.

Deputy Ardagh

I was told the other day that is was more difficult to get a bicycle into a Garda station than a car. This might be anecdotal, but the gardaí obviously want the bicycles, feeling that they would be more effective on them. However, there is great difficulty getting them. Will the Garda roll out more? If so, how many?

Commissioner Conroy

We currently have approximately 160, and they are being rolled out all the time. As we look at various settings, particularly towns——

Deputy Ardagh

Has the Commissioner any numbers in that regard? How many does the Garda aspire to have by the end of this year?

Commissioner Conroy

We hope to have approximately 200 pedal cycles.

Deputy Ardagh

An increase of 40? I ask the Commissioner to increase that further.

Commissioner Conroy

I am very conscious of what is required, but I have to pay attention to value for money. Looking at the demands on the service, we must ask ourselves how we deal with them. There are situations where we need motorcycles or patrol cars. For instance, the patrol cars are going 24 hours a day, and we must have them available, particularly in the city, but also in rural Ireland.

Deputy Ardagh

I thank the Commissioner.

Deputy Burton

I am pleased to meet the Commissioner once again.

Perhaps I might ask him about community policing. I understand that the overall number of gardaí allocated thereto is approximately 400 or 500. In a highly populated area such as Dublin 15, numbers of community gardaí over the past ten years have varied between approximately 17 and, occasionally, when there has been a crime wave, 20 or 23. Regarding the force's strategic management, is it the Commissioner's policy to promote and value community policing?

When it comes to the anti-social behaviour of which my colleague spoke earlier, if gardaí are based entirely in squad cars and drive into an area, they sometimes get the wrong people, resulting in a great deal of bad feeling among younger teenagers and so on. There is also no continuing link between the gardaí and the community. In my area, we have from time to time had very dedicated community policing officers, whom we have been delighted to have. However, one barely gets to know them before they are gone because they have been allocated to something more important.

The Commissioner will know that Dublin west has specific problems of serious criminal gang activity, anti-social behaviour, guns and, in particular, drugs. Does the Commissioner understand that people sometimes feel that the criminals enjoy immunity or impunity and that, if they do not regularly see gardaí on their neighbourhood streets, they feel that those criminals have control? To an extent, some estates have been abandoned by the Garda.

When one has community police, the vast bulk are remarkably effective. However, they do not stay. The Patten reforms in the North dealt with the PSNI. Would the Commissioner consider the reforms that it and forces elsewhere in the world have implemented? Community policing is accorded a high level of significance for promotion and qualifications, and community policemen are allocated for two to three years rather than only one or two months.

Commissioner Conroy

Chairman and Deputy, I am a strong supporter of community policing and getting uniformed members of the Garda Síochána onto the streets. I have made that case to the Secretary General of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform regarding clerical backup, and I am glad to say that we will be getting approximately 350 clerical support staff. The intention is that uniformed people currently in administrative positions will be replaced by such clerical assistants.

My aim is to increase the number of gardaí active in community policing, which is a great source of comfort to residents, as the Deputy pointed out. Second, it is a great source of information regarding criminal activity in various areas. Information on most serious crimes detected comes from gardaí involved in community policing. They may not be the individuals that carry out the arrests or the investigation, but they are our support people for serious crime.

I also hope that with increased numbers joining the organisation, we will see ever more uniformed people on the streets, not only in Dublin West but throughout the country. We have made great inroads when it comes to ensuring that, when officers go out from headquarters, they take uniformed superintendents and chief superintendents out on the beat to meet people. That is being strongly encouraged throughout the organisation, and it will be seen increasingly as we get more people.

Given the new Garda Síochána Act 2005, which deals with joint policing committees, I hope that the various issues outlined by the Deputy regarding problems with public order situations on estates will be addressed. I do not want to say that we as a police force can solve the various problems on such estates. Many other people must also be involved to bring solutions to problem areas. There are many fine people in various communities working extremely hard to ensure that peace and tranquility prevail. Where the people, the gardaí and other agencies work together, we find that we have very few complaints. However, from time to time those involved in community policing move on.

Deputy Burton

From time to time? It happens all the time. They last only two or three months, and then they are gone.

Commissioner Conroy

That should not happen.

Deputy Burton

One goes for meetings with them, and it is great to meet them, but then they are gone.

Commissioner Conroy

I am very disappointed.

Deputy Burton

That is my experience, and I am sure that it is shared by the other members.

Commissioner Conroy

I should be very disappointed in that event because when the chief superintendents select people for community policing, it is expected that they will serve for a period of at least two years. I should be very disappointed if after two months somebody who has been trained to do community policing is suddenly moved. However, I accept that people who are involved in drug units, etc., come from areas such as that because they have been very successful in obtaining information as regards what is going on in these areas. They know the people who are causing the problems in the area and gain a good deal of investigative experience from their work in community policing and that does effect change. However, if matters are as the Deputy says, I have no difficulty in looking at Dublin west in particular. If they are being moved every two months I will take that on board and review the position.

Chairman

There has been a lack of continuity. Sometimes, when pressure builds up within a Garda division, people are moved to the particular pressure point. The employment of community gardaí seems to be low down the priority list when it comes to dealing with wider problems in the area. The Commissioner is saying, in effect, that the policy position is ideal if they could be left in place for two years, and perhaps he might emphasise that.

Commissioner Conroy

Yes, I will raise this with all the assistant commissioners to ensure that the spirit of their employment is put in place.

Deputy Burton

With regard to the Estimate for superannuation, which is fairly significant, from a management viewpoint has the Commissioner concerns about the more experienced senior members of the force who are retiring before their full service is completed? Does he have figures regarding senior gardaí, of inspector rank and above, who are leaving before the necessary date for retirement?

Commissioner Conroy

Last year, approximately 400 members retired from the organisation. That was down somewhat on the previous year when it was in the region of 450. As I said earlier, the Minister has changed the age in respect of retirement, from 57 to 60 in respect of garda, sergeant and inspector ranks. It is too early to say that this will mean any major change for us, but we are very conscious of the need to look at different systems to deal with individuals who have special experience, particularly as regards the whole area of incidents in control rooms and areas such as that. This may well be something we shall have to review, in terms of bringing such individuals back from retirement to deal with situations such as that.

Deputy Burton

Is the Commissioner concerned that very often the private security industry, or aspects of it, could be potentially far more lucrative and attractive for experienced senior officers, once they have served the requisite amount of time? Are there any retention strategies in place aimed at keeping more senior and experienced gardaí?

Commissioner Conroy

It has been a problem where experienced people have been lost, particularly in the investigative area, and they have gone to the private sector. However, as the Deputy probably knows, a member of the Garda Síochána, after 30 years service and having reached the age of 50, is entitled to retire. Certain people go early from time to time, while we should have liked them to remain and indeed, have worked to try and keep them. This is true particularly in Dublin west, with which the Deputy is familiar where I tried that with one individual, who decided otherwise, however, and left. He had been working 12 to 14 hours a day. I suppose that ultimately the stress of the job got to him.

Deputy Burton

Given the level of gangland crime, murder, mayhem, guns and drugs in certain areas, in parts of Limerick city, for instance, parts of Dublin west and other urban areas, does the loss of these experienced gardaí in terms of their investigative, team skills and so forth not mean it is quite difficult to build up replacement teams?

Commissioner Conroy

Our training staff, particularly in Templemore and also our external training people continue to try to maintain a cadre of people to take over from those individuals. We know for a fact that so many gardaí will retire every year on reaching the age limit. In other words we must have planned for that. However, the occasion will occur where someone will decide to leave much earlier and we have to try to make up the void. There are many training programmes. Throughout the country, for instance, it is intended to introduce trained investigators at detective inspector level, and this is about to happen. In the Dublin metropolitan area we do not have the same problems that exist in country divisions in so far as local chief superintendents will not have that capacity. We are working in all those areas.

Deputy Burton

As an adjunct to that, before the Secretary General comes in, the Commissioner had planned, I understand, to have trained investigators as regards crashes.

Commissioner Conroy

Yes, that is correct.

Deputy Burton

Were they to be from the ranks of the Garda or civilian experts? One was to be appointed per county, with perhaps a few more in the Dublin areas. Did that happen? I understand that with modern vehicles sometimes the traditional evidence as regards crashes which presented in the past, is no longer available. Therefore highly trained investigators are needed. Can the Commissioner say if that happened?

Commissioner Conroy

Yes, we continue to train forensic collision investigators. We have also purchased new technology and hopefully will be in a position to give scientific readings as regards impact, speed and related areas. It is intended that every division in the country will have a trained collision investigator who will, in time, be able to use the equipment that has been purchased.

Deputy Burton

How many are there at present?

Commissioner Conroy

There are at least five or six in Dublin. I cannot give the Deputy the precise number, but I can write to the Chairman on this, if that is all right.

Mr. Aylward

I will be brief because the Commissioner is the Accounting Officer here. As a supplement, I want to indicate some of the co-operation we have had, to help the Commissioner on issues such as retention and deployment. On retention, the Public Service Superannuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2004 changed the retirement regulations affecting the Garda. Many people who work in uniformed services around the world operate on the principle of "Max out and get out", which means maximum benefits and then retirement. This is particularly true of organisations where there is a wide pyramid base and people can only advance so far, career-wise. That is a reality of uniformed services.

Hitherto, up to 1 April 2004, a garda could maximise his pension entitlements and get out at age 50, provided he or she had 30 years service. The rules were changed then, and that meant that from April 2004 anyone who joined the Garda could not maximise his or her entitlements until age 55, but would be allowed to remain in the force until age 60. There was a large cohort of people, of course, who had joined long before that time and would be coming into the zone for retirement. The rules were permanently changed on 26 December, I believe, to allow people in that cohort to continue to serve until age 60, if they wished.

Chairman

Are the allowances pensionable?

Mr. Aylward

There is a mix of pensionable and non-pensionable allowances. We have everything from an Aran Islands allowance, which is pensionable, to the rent allowance, which is pensionable as well as being a major allowance category. There is a Minister's drivers' pool allowance, which is pensionable and which replaced overtime for that cohort. Allowances are a significant component of a garda's salary mix but they reflect the unsocial hours and other responsibilities that would not be the normal experience of public servants.

I wish to support the Garda Commissioner in respect of putting more boots on the streets and more visible uniforms in communities, which the public wants. It is important to record changes that took place in the past 18 months. One was the opening in Castlebar with the co-operation of the Departments of Finance and Agriculture and Food of a PULSE centre, to which the Commissioner has referred on many occasions. We are close to having 130 civilian civil servants working there around the clock, many of whom work with the Department of Agriculture and Food sending out cheques for headage payments and so forth. That 24-hour service to the Garda is now nationwide. The Commissioner can discuss it further.

We have equipped gardaí with mobile phones with an autodial to that centre. Instead of returning to the Garda station to record an incident — a burglary or otherwise — he or she calls it in to the centre, which operates 24-7. The incident is recorded and the garda can continue with his or her duty on the streets. This is a major reform and a significant development in that it saves patrol gardaí between a third and a quarter of their time. Instead of having to go back to their station, they can continue to serve the public.

A further point is that while we had an embargo on additional civilian appointments in the Garda since 1989, except with the special permission of Government, that embargo was dropped or significantly amended on 19 December when the Commissioner and I procured, through the Tánaiste, a Government decision changing the cap on the number of civilians the Commissioner could have under his control and increasing the number by 300. There were also vacancies in the Dublin area, which, again with the co-operation of the Department of Finance, we have been allowed to fill — I understand between 50 and 70 staff will fill slots in the Dublin area, including at Garda headquarters. Some 300 more staff will begin work before the end of March, all of whom will aid and support the Garda so gardaí can do the job on the streets. That information may be useful to the committee.

Deputy Burton

The report on civilianisation in the Garda Síochána goes back to February 2001. Is Mr. Aylward suggesting it took the Department ten years to get to the point of employing civilians to support gardaí in terms of releasing them for other duties? When that report was first published in 2001, I thought we were talking about several hundred civilian staff, certainly more than 350. Progress has been extraordinarily slow.

Mr. Aylward

One of the difficulties related to the negotiations was that Garda posts, by agreement with the unions, could only be civilianised when the members holding them retired, so it was a very slow trickle. We have all moved on. The Garda associations can speak for themselves but they have of late been vehement, trenchant and insistent in demanding that we release their members to do the work for which they were recruited and trained. Their insistence, as Senator Maurice Hayes noted in a recent report, results from the strong public demand for gardaí at the coal face.

There has been a culture change and, reflecting that and the insistence of the Commissioner that he wants the civilians employed, we have all worked together to change the picture and to move it on. I will not detain the committee with repetition but I have described the initiatives we have taken, some of which are quite new and having dramatic results in terms of increased Garda availability. This is reflected in our expenditure figures and projections. We still lag behind most western European democracies in the split between civilian staff, including expert civilian staff, and uniformed staff but we have made dramatic strides in the past 18 months to help to redress that balance.

Deputy J. Higgins

The outturn in 2005 was €794 million in wages and, if I understood the Comptroller and Auditor General correctly, €250 million of that figure was overtime.

Chairman

Some €250 million was other than basic salary. It includes allowances. The figure for overtime was €79 million.

Deputy J. Higgins

Does the Commissioner have a breakdown according to the roles that the gardaí who were paid that overtime played in 2005? For example, would he have a breakdown with regard to the amount of overtime that was assigned for community gardaí on the beat as opposed to gardaí on other duties?

Commissioner Conroy

Unfortunately, I do not have that information. Much of the overtime, particularly in 2005, was paid to members appearing in court when they would otherwise have been on a day off, night duty or some other duty. I understand the Deputy's question with regard to expenditure as far as community policing is concerned. At present we deal with it as follows. Some 30% of the overtime is spent on crime investigation, 10% to 25% is spent on court duty, 15% to 25% is spent on security duties and the rest is spent on major events and road safety.

With regard to the present expenditure on overtime, a special budget is available to the deputy commissioner. The chief superintendents in the various divisions may be having problems with regard to a high incidence of crime. A chief superintendent will put forward his case, outline the strategy of how he intends to deal with the criminal activity in a particular area and put in a request for funding. That funding is awarded on the basis of the strategy to be rolled out by the chief superintendent, whether it is for community policing, armed response or patrolling in a particular area. The deputy commissioner in question would expect results from the particular operation. That is what happens at present. However, I cannot give the Deputy details of the specifics on community policing.

Deputy J. Higgins

There is a perception in many communities, particularly working class communities, that they may wait a very long time for a garda to answer a call due to a shortage of personnel, Garda cars or otherwise, but that for other set pieces there is no shortage of gardaí. The Garda can pile hundreds of gardaí into Rossport, for example, in a completely over-the-top response in a local community. On Mayday 2004, which will rest in my mind for a long time, Dublin was like a police state. There was a completely over-the-top and unnecessary response, with hundreds of gardaí everywhere. The feeling out there is that there is no shortage of gardaí for such operations or for escorting dignitaries and all the rest, but when it comes to working class communities which need community gardaí, there is a shortage.

Commissioner Conroy

On that score, the allocation of personnel to any division is not based on class or creed, or the make-up of any division. It is based on population, criminal activity and crime reporting, which are all taken into consideration. From time to time, we would be very keen to increase the number of gardaí on community policing duty. It is very important we do so because it is a uniformed presence.

With regard to visiting dignitaries, of course we wish to ensure, on behalf of the people, the safety of such dignitaries. They should be protected to the highest standards just as if any of our dignitaries were to travel to another country, we would expect the other police force or service to ensure they were respected and dealt with accordingly.

I know Rossport extremely well and would like to see peace and tranquility in respect of any protests that might take place. Officers there have spoken to people as often as possible to try to bring about a situation in which the numbers of gardaí deployed in County Mayo can be greatly reduced. I would prefer them to be deployed in problem areas instead of having them in Rossport, where, regardless of whether one likes it, people are entitled to go to work and to protest. As such, we must ensure that people can go to work.

Deputy J. Higgins

On that issue, one day in Rossport a group of Independent Deputies and I held a press conference and a public meeting. We had two members of the Commissioner's force in our faces and videotaping us. While I wrote to the Commissioner in this regard, I did not receive a response. It must be unprecedented in this State that Garda members now believe they can infringe on a political meeting in this manner. I assure the Commissioner that such behaviour angers people. It is not a proper use of Garda resources.

Commissioner Conroy

As I stated, I would prefer not to have any gardaí deployed there. I would rather have them used in areas in which I know the people want us to be engaged. Ultimately however, allegations and counter-allegations are being made. I regret it if the Deputy feels discommoded in any way by the actions of the gardaí there. However, it is a question of protecting all individuals involved. Complaints procedures exist and it is only fair to all involved in a protest, be they gardaí or the public, that in the event of an inquiry, the best evidence should be available to whatever agency investigates the complaint against the gardaí, or vice versa.

Deputy J. Higgins

I will move on. However, were the Taoiseach to hold a press conference near Rossport, the Commissioner would not have two Garda videos in his face.

Commissioner Conroy

I cannot comment on that.

Deputy J. Higgins

I want to move on. While the estimate for the witness security programme was €1.13 million, the outturn was €600,000, or half that sum. Why was this?

Commissioner Conroy

In the first instance, one must consider the situation. Who are the people with information? Who can give evidence to support a prosecution? A panel decides on such issues. It examines the evidence that a witness can provide and must then ascertain whether the witness wishes to enter the programme. At present, the Garda is providing 24-hour protection to quite a number of people, to keep them alive. While we would prefer if they entered the programme, they decide the issue. If a member of the public provides us with excellent information in respect of a crime and intends to come forward to give evidence, we must ensure the citizen in question is entitled to be protected, to deal with those who have committed serious criminal offences. Of course we try to get them to enter the programme in such situations. However, this is a consensual matter. The finances are available and undoubtedly, in the event that they were insufficient, I would be able to seek further financing from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Deputy J. Higgins

This a time in which, unfortunately, callous gunmen are inflicting havoc in certain areas and situations. The programme is a mechanism that the Commissioner hopes will be effective in cutting down on such havoc, or in bringing them to justice. However, does this suggest it is not working? Is that a fair assumption?

Commissioner Conroy

While I can understand the Deputy's point, as I have already stated, people in areas with high criminal activity have come forward. They have made very important statements regarding what they have seen and heard and are part of the prosecution process. Naturally, the benefits of the witness security programme have been outlined to them and we tried to encourage them to think about it seriously. Some entered it for a day and went away to a location. Quite clearly however, they were unhappy to be away from their families and simply returned to the area in question. We now provide them with 24-hour cover. While this is highly intensive in terms of man-hours from my perspective, our organisation has an obligation to ensure that such people can give their evidence freely in court. It is up to us to protect them.

Deputy J. Higgins

There is a figure of €12.8 million in respect of equipment. Can the Commissioner provide a general outline as to the kind of equipment this encompasses? Was a water cannon bought in 2005, or has the Garda purchased water cannon? Have any of the bicycles been stolen?

Commissioner Conroy

If they have been stolen, I have not been told about it. I doubt if any of our bicycles have been stolen.

No, we have not bought a water cannon. In the past, we have borrowed a water cannon from the PSNI. The management staff and I, as Commissioner, do not envisage a need for a water cannon at present. However, if matters were to change and such equipment provided a means to bring peace and tranquillity to a situation that arose on a regular basis, I would consider it. At present however, the gardaí who work with the community generally do so well. When one considers the number of isolated incidents in which large numbers of gardaí were required, they have handled matters reasonably well. There have of course been hiccups from time to time.

Deputy J. Higgins

I am glad the Garda has not purchased such equipment because the temptation to use one was too great for Garda members on May Day 2004, when a water cannon was completely unnecessarily used at Ashtown.

Deputy Fleming

The Commissioner is welcome before the committee in his first appearance as Accounting Officer. As for the water cannon that the Garda borrows from the PSNI, am I correct in stating that it contains a heater to remove the chill from the water to prevent it from giving a fright or a shock to those who are at the receiving end?

Commissioner Conroy

To comply with human rights legislation, that must be the case.

Deputy Fleming

Absolutely.

Commissioner Conroy

It is heated water.

Deputy Fleming

I am pleased the PSNI and the Garda are so considerate of the people who block the streets on such parades, that they spray them with warm, rather than cold, water.

Chairman

Deputy Higgins must bring his shampoo with him to the next protest.

Deputy Fleming

As reference is being made to the water cannon, it is important to explain its full facilities. I would not like people to believe the Garda was using it in a cold-hearted manner.

While I do not wish to dwell overly on the May Day march, I can think of an incident last year on O'Connell Street that gave rise to accusations that the Garda did not have sufficient people deployed. I understand the aircraft was not put in place quickly enough on that day. I sympathise with the Commissioner, in that he has a difficult job. On one day he may be accused of having too many police, while on the following day, he is accused of the opposite. All members understand how rapidly such events can be organised by texts. One might encounter a situation in which no one is on the street, as all are in the pub when suddenly, one is faced with a large crowd of people with devilment in mind. The Commissioner is to be sympathised with. The Garda Síochána is doing a reasonable job in respect of these difficult situations. We understand it is not possible for it to get it right all the time.

That aside, I compliment the Garda Síochána on its very high visibility on the roads in recent months, which has made a contribution. I know there are qualms about it in rural areas in respect of random breath tests on the morning after. Like most Members of the Oireachtas and members of the public, I have been subject to these random breath tests on the road in recent months, which is a good thing. The majority of the public, who want to be protected on the roads, take comfort from the fact that the Garda is looking after it. I know there are difficulties for some people in some areas, but the silent majority fully supports what the Garda is doing in this regard.

In recent times, I have also noticed that when a major accident occurs, possibly including a fatality, a far more comprehensive approach is taken to the Garda closing off roads. I live on the edge of a national primary route and if an accident occurs on such a route, the Garda will close it off for hours or a day if necessary to carry out a full investigation. This to be welcomed because an increasing amount of litigation is taking place. How does this fit into the coroner's inquest in respect of the cause of death? I understand such an inquest can take months and the coroner would be in receipt of information. Does this information come immediately to the Garda or must it wait until it is released by the coroner? This might be evidence of alcohol or drugs in the person or driver's system. I understand there is no quick free flow exchange of information between the Garda Síochána, the Road Safety Authority and the National Roads Authority. Could Commissioner Conroy explain the sequence of events in respect of this?

Commissioner Conroy

In respect of accidents, I know closing roads for a day generally causes many problems for the public, members of whom have a fixed time to get from A to B and are trying to get to work. Suddenly, an accident occurs at 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. and they may hear on the radio the next day that the road is closed and traffic is being diverted. What we are trying to achieve on that front is that when the new equipment, some of which has been bought, is available to and introduced by us throughout the country, there will be a huge reduction in the time during which a road will be closed. It is a must because of the amount of traffic on the road nowadays. If one puts a diversion in place, one can cause major problems for motorists. We must try to change all that and will do so once the new equipment is introduced.

In respect of inquests and the toxicology report, the pathologist carries out the post mortem on behalf of the coroner in whose area the individual died or was killed. The toxicology report goes to the coroner who may, for reasons that he or she may know, inform us before the inquest is held that this was the reading in respect of alcohol or any other type of drug in the blood. This does happen and, sometimes, it comes as a surprise at the inquest to discover the amount of alcohol in the blood of an individual. On the other hand, when people go to the scene of an accident and one sees the circumstances of it and is in close proximity to the individual who is possibly injured or dead, one quickly ascertains that alcohol is involved. Even the Garda reports would indicate this in an investigation file and the taking of statements. The garda must try to establish where the individual came from. Did he or she come from a pub? This goes into the entire investigation for the coroner's court. As the Deputy is aware, that court and inquiry will be changed under new legislation that has been introduced. It is to be hoped this will make people more comfortable hearing more evidence in that court than maybe was heard heretofore.

Deputy Fleming

I am pleased to see the Garda Síochána received €3 million from the banks in respect of cash escorts. I also noticed in the account that there was an estimate for €1.5 million for Garda aircraft, with a supplementary estimate of €2.2 million during the course of the year. Did the Garda Síochána buy new aircraft during the year? What does it have in terms of aircraft?

Commissioner Conroy

At present, we have fixed wing helicopters, a prop engine, a twin engine and a defender. We have two helicopters, one of which is a 355N and is about to be replaced by a new Eurocopter 135. We have a 135 helicopter so we should have a new helicopter towards the end of March and will more than likely dispose of the first helicopter we got over ten years ago.

Deputy Fleming

How many fixed-wing aircraft does the Garda Síochána have?

Commissioner Conroy

One.

Deputy Fleming

How old is it?

Commissioner Conroy

It is ten years old, but we do not need the services of the fixed wing helicopter as much as we do the other helicopter.

Deputy Fleming

Does the Garda use it for cash escorts?

Commissioner Conroy

Yes. We also use it for other duties.

Deputy Fleming

Do the banks pay a contribution to that aircraft for their cash escorts?

Commissioner Conroy

They do not make a contribution for the helicopters. The levy on the banks is made yearly. For example, it has risen to €4.25 million this year.

Deputy Fleming

I suggest they should possibly be billed for the aircraft as well. It is no secret that I live on the N7. For the past 20 years, at 10.15 a.m. every Thursday, the fixed wing aircraft comes along with the money heading off to the Commissioner's constituency and other places. The banks should be able to contribute to the upkeep of this aircraft.

The report states that the Garda Síochána receives €2.7 million for services rendered by gardaí. I presume this is for sporting organisations and concerts?

Commissioner Conroy

Yes.

Deputy Fleming

Has the Commissioner some details on this? If not, he can forward them to us.

Commissioner Conroy

If it is acceptable to the Chairman, I will send the details in writing.

Deputy Fleming

Is it for inside the grounds or outside on a public street?

Commissioner Conroy

It is for inside the grounds as far as sporting events are concerned. In respect of concerts, we tend to charge for a certain amount on the outside because the problem would not exist if a profit-making concert were not under way inside. In recent times, for example, with the Ryder Cup, we got most of the money from the organisation and charged it for the entire policing operation.

Deputy Fleming

That is fine. Will the Commissioner send information on this in writing to the committee?

Commissioner Conroy

Yes.

Deputy Fleming

One figure in the accounts which intrigued me is a figure of €92,619, which is a percentage charged to insurance companies for collecting insurance premiums. Why would the Garda Síochána collect insurance premiums for private car insurance companies? Am I reading this correctly?

Commissioner Conroy

Perhaps I am wrong, but my interpretation is that we investigate traffic collisions, as was pointed out earlier. Insurance companies, in trying to reach settlements, apply to us for copies of statements and reports so we charge for that.

Deputy Fleming

I understand the Garda Síochána charges for that as well. On page 123 in the appropriation accounts, it notes the percentage charge to insurance companies for collection of insurance premiums.

Chairman

Mr. Aylward and Mr. Purcell will clarify matters.

Mr. Aylward

I am subject to correction on this, but I think this concerns the deduction at source schemes possessed by insurance companies. I believe the Comptroller and Auditor General is nodding. I should explain that as a facility to public servants and other employees, they can sign mandate forms and have premiums they are paying——

Deputy Fleming

This just concerns members of the Garda Síochána?

Mr. Aylward

Precisely.

Deputy Fleming

It does not involve collecting from the public.

Mr. Aylward

No. The Commissioner is correct in that certain reports are furnished by the Garda Síochána to insurance companies in respect of investigating accidents for which a charge is levied. However, this specific entry is a very technical one. In respect of the shared financial services centre which operates in Killarney for the Garda Síochána and other services in the justice family, being good clerks, we charge the insurance companies for the benefit of us stopping that money and forwarding it to them. It is a piece of good governance and cost recovery by the public service because the insurers are gaining from the efficiency of our remitting that money to them.

Deputy Fleming

Now that we are discussing car insurance, I understand that there is a legal mechanism in place whereby an insurance company can cancel a policy during the course of a year. If a person paid by direct debit for the first month and then paid no more, the company can notify the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government that the policy has been cancelled, which notifies the Garda Síochána in turn. The Garda would be aware that the insurance for a car with an insurance disk has expired.

How many notices does the Garda receive from the Department and what is the mechanism for following up on them? If Commissioner Conroy does not have all of the details, perhaps he could revert to the committee. The number of cars in question is considerable.

Commissioner Conroy

Unfortunately, I do not have the information, but I will try to get it and revert to the committee.

Deputy Fleming

Is my understanding of the situation correct?

Commissioner Conroy

Yes, but I am not in a position to provide numbers.

Deputy Deasy

I want to approach the Commissioner from a different direction. When he spoke of the relationship between the Garda and agencies that deal with people in communities, he gave the impression that it was almost seamless. As it pertains to young children and the HSE, senior officers in my constituency and impartial observers have a different opinion, namely, that the relationship has broken down.

The force does a good deal of good work and I have a high regard for gardaí in my constituency. The budget is €1.1 billion, which will rise in all probability, but there is a failing in how the Garda deals with young children and the identification of children who will end up in the criminal justice system. In the past two or three years, the committee has discussed the cost of dealing with a young offender, €80,000 or €90,000 on average. The preventative measures taken in the community and pertaining to different agencies are not up to scratch. Beyond the good work done by community gardaí, the relationship has broken down.

Commissioner Conroy

The Deputy will know that we are a 24-7, 12 months per year organisation. Other organisations do not operate on this basis. From time to time, we experience problems in Dublin, for example, in cases of young people from dysfunctional families becoming involved in incidents or sleeping rough. We must intervene in such situations. Due to the time of the morning or night in question, the other services are unavailable.

Much work has been done to try to alleviate these problems in Dublin city centre in particular and the situation has improved, but I cannot answer for the other divisions. It may be a problem in other cities. I will take the issue on board and try to talk to the gardaí in question.

Deputy Deasy

Yes. Senior officers tell me that from 5 p.m. on Friday, the Garda is responsible for those children. The Garda's remit is catching people and locking them up. While I cannot speak for officers, they would like someone to express to the HSE and the Government that there is a serious problem, that is, they are left holding the can every weekend.

I agree with the Commissioner because the officers with whom I speak say that the Garda are responsible for the children, particularly on bank holidays. As there is a gap, the Garda has become reactive, but more preventative measures should be taken with other agencies. Those children will end up in the criminal justice system and cost the State millions of euro. In a town such as the one from which I come, which has 8,000 or 9,000 people, preventing a few people from entering the criminal justice system could mean a crime rate reduction of 20% or 30%.

The Garda is spending a great deal of money and its job is becoming more difficult, as crime has become more varied and drug crime is out of control, but we cannot lose sight of the fact that it must spend time, money and effort on thwarting children from ending up in the criminal justice system. The Garda has put in place measures such as community forums and has made efforts in terms of community policing, but there is a gap. Senior levels in the Garda should articulate that their organisation is left dealing with the problem and that the Government should take responsibility in a holistic fashion.

Commissioner Conroy

I will take the matter up with the HSE and relay the Deputy's comments in the hope of improving the situation throughout the country. That is as much as I can do now.

Deputy Deasy

I thank the Commissioner. A year ago, I asked him about a third Garda station in Waterford, but he told me to hold off for a year. What is the possibility of having a station in the ward 3 area? The matter rises continually, but the answer I have always received is that the Garda does not want to set up a third station and, instead, wants to free gardaí to patrol. From listening to Mr. Aylward, gardaí will be freed up thanks to rapid civilianisation. Can we expect more thought being given to a third station in Waterford?

Commissioner Conroy

I must be honest. Opening stations eats up manpower. I have met delegations from different parts of the country. For example, we reduced the opening hours of a station in a particular division from throughout the night to 10 p.m. because it was not a district headquarters. When we met local representatives at Phoenix Park, we pointed out the benefits to the community of having a garda with a walkie-talkie on the street instead of inside a station, namely, being contactable and having a preventative role.

Convincing people can be difficult. The people who visited us did so because others approached them and made a strong statement to the effect that closing a station would cause problems in the town. When I communicated with the representatives after three months, they stated that they were happy with the situation because the garda was visible on the street.

I am not a strong supporter of opening stations because it removes manpower from the community, but I will ask the assistant commissioner to examine the region in question to determine whether there is any need. I am in favour of one-stop-shops combining a number of agencies that support neighbourhoods. If people have problems with any part of Government business, legislation or policing, they could attend area meetings at fixed times on a day or two every week. Any of those problems could be examined holistically. I will revert to the Assistant Commissioner, who will examine the matter with the local chief superintendent.

Deputy Deasy

The system to which Mr. Aylward refers is working very well. Why did it take six years to lift the embargo on civilianisation?

Mr. Aylward

It is a Government issue and, while I do not seek to speak for Mr. Foster, there was a problem with the explosion of numbers in the public service. Some containment was needed but this happened at the wrong point in the cycle with regard to the development of the Garda Síochána. As policy makers the emphasis was to recruit more gardaí. Whenever we sought to abrogate the Government policy on public service numbers we sought uniformed gardaí to expand the service. We reached a point where this was causing pain to the Garda Síochána as an organisation, which was struggling to provide support services. Gardaí were pulled off the street to do that, which was unacceptable to both the Garda Commissioner and I. It required a policy change. Any policy such as that is a crude mechanism but we are now moving in tandem with the Department and the Garda Síochána to redress this balance.

Deputy Deasy

Mr. Aylward mentioned the unions.

Mr. Aylward

We will create visible change as a consequence of the Government decision.

Chairman

Can Mr. Foster provide the context for the decision?

Mr. Foster

The Secretary General provided a reasonable summary. There were other issues of equal pay and union related issues.

Deputy Deasy

My Aylward mentioned something about the unions blocking this move.

Mr. Aylward

I do not suggest unions blocked anything. An agreement that civilianisation would take place was made with the unions in 2001. A number of designated Garda posts that could be civilianised were identified. The agreement at the time was that these would only be replaced when the gardaí retired or moved on. That was too slow but a sea change in attitude has taken place, both in the Garda Síochána and in Ireland. Gardaí wish to work with the people and we are facilitating the Garda Síochána in moving the eminent resources, those blue uniforms, to the front line.

Chairman

Commissioner, I support Deputy Deasy's point about co-operation between the Garda Síochána and the HSE. There is no suggestion that the difficulty arises from the actions of the Garda Síochána. Garda management should be more proactive in stating the difficulty. Witnesses are familiar with the situation in Moyross. Some 40 State agencies and voluntary organisations assist the people there. On a bank holiday weekend the schools are closed, the social workers have left and the volunteers who live outside the area have gone home. From 5 p.m. on Friday evening until Tuesday morning responsibility devolves to the Garda Síochána and the clergy. Nobody else is operating. There is difficulty with children getting into trouble when schools are closed on bank holiday weekends. The Commissioner would reinforce what many people are stating if he made a statement on the matter.

Commissioner Conroy

I will do that.

Deputy McGuinness

I wish to refer to matters already covered. Given the profitability of the banks, they should pay as much as possible towards the costs of security for banks transporting money around the country. I realise that the State must make some contribution to security but we must seek increases in the contribution made by banks.

I agree with the Chairman and Deputy Burton regarding community policing. It has proved a major success and most Deputies compliment gardaí in their efforts. New initiatives are being undertaken but we must see those interacting with the community serving longer than the current duration, which can be as short as two months. Gardaí can be transferred just after building up relations in the community. It is understandable that gardaí are transferred to areas of greater priority but two years is a good idea for a minimum duration. I ask the Garda Commissioner to enforce this within his organisation.

Regarding the leasing of vehicles, was leasing the full fleet considered? Was including servicing and replacement considered, resulting in a single deal with one company? The additional risks of accident, because of the tasks undertaken, would have to be considered. Making the whole service arrangement and the replacement of vehicles the responsibility of one company should have been done a long time ago. It is disappointing that this process has been under way since 2002 and is still not completed. Significant losses have occurred because of the lack of an efficient, competitive arrangement. Was this considered and is the arrangement I suggest workable?

Commissioner Conroy

Other countries have schemes regarding the purchase and leasing of vehicles, due to an inability to access funds to buy new vehicles. In Ireland, the Exchequer provides funding to purchase vehicles. If one was to examine the revenue needed to purchase the vehicle, use it and sell it, a major loss to taxpayers would not be incurred. Revenue on vehicles is such that if this was removed from the equation, the vehicles were very cheap. This is one of the major indicators that the way in which we do business at present is correct.

Mr. Purcell

I support what the Commissioner has stated. The level of use means that the vehicles would have no residual value at the end of the lease period. It was examined as part of at least one study carried out and this was the conclusion.

Deputy McGuinness

I understand from previous discussions with Deputy Ardagh that the file on fraud investigation will go to the DPP. I presume the principals of the company are available to co-operate with the DPP and the Garda.

Commissioner Conroy

Yes, in so far as we interviewed a number of the people concerned. Some company employees have moved on. The motor company is still under the same ownership. However, internal problems exist as well as those we have with the servicing of the vehicles.

Deputy McGuinness

Will those who have moved on be available to the investigating team?

Commissioner Conroy

The investigators will chase up those individuals.

Deputy McGuinness

Has an audit of properties in the ownership or being used by the Garda Síochána been undertaken? Many stations throughout the country are no longer in use. The "green man" button put in place is now defunct and buildings are not in use and no longer manned. Has a value been placed on those buildings or has the OPW been requested to dispose of them? Has an audit been taken of rural areas which experienced an increase in population and where a need exists to review the Garda presence?

Commissioner Conroy

Yes. If the Chairman has no objection, I will ask Chief Superintendent Jeffers to deal with this issue because it is his area of speciality.

Chief Superintendent James Jeffers

We are aware of quite a few stations which we consider below par and have gone beyond repair and maintenance. We work closely with the OPW on this matter. The Atkins report identified more than 200 stations which needed immediate attention. An equity exchange programme was recommended regarding those particular stations but it was not taken up by the market. Further plans are now in place and it is hoped to go to the market again and possibly the EU to build replacement stations and dispose of current stations to fund them.

Deputy McGuinness

I thank the chief superintendent for the information. My question relates to stations which are out of service and were replaced by the green man machine which is also no longer in use. A number of stations throughout the country have no Garda presence. Has an audit been conducted of those properties which are identified as Garda stations but where no activity takes place? Perhaps a garda calls for an hour a day. It is not efficient to keep them on the books.

Commissioner Conroy

We have 703 Garda stations. If we could get support from the community on closing down Garda stations I would have no difficult in making such recommendations to the Minister, particularly if one examines the Garda Síochána Act 2005. As far as I am aware, a garda is designated to be stationed at every Garda station we have. However, from time to time local officers will utilise a garda from a station at district headquarters. As the Deputy pointed out, if this happens the garda will call to the station only now and again. Does Deputy McGuinness have a particular station in mind? If people from a particular area were to state they should not have a Garda station, I would have no difficulty in getting local officers to examine it, report it and deal with it on a case-by-case basis.

Deputy McGuinness

The point I am making is that buildings throughout the country which served as old Garda barracks are no longer in use. I do not request the closure of barracks. I ask that the almost vacant buildings used for only one hour a day be examined. To take the Commissioner up on the other point, greater presence should be provided in a more efficient building. Other State agencies delivering services should be worked with to provide a garda presence in a modern building.

In a domestic situation, it is like one person living in a four-bedroomed house. Is it better to sell that house and buy suitable accommodation but retain an active presence within the community? Better presence could be had through the use of facilities whereby other Government agencies deliver and which the Commissioner spoke about in his reply to Deputy Deasy. This would raise the money to provide the community service required. That is all I ask.

Barracks were closed when the population of rural Ireland was on the decrease. Urban centres are growing rapidly throughout the country demanding schools and other new facilities. The Garda station exists in the old form which I described. Like all urban communities, they are losing the battle against drug barons. I will use Kilkenny as an example. The use of heroin and cocaine has escalated beyond belief. The bikes are working. We need a Garda presence on the street to interact with people, particularly with marginalised communities affected.

In Kilkenny the barracks is occupied and active but the service has grown out of the building. It has no room to properly store evidence and is problematic in the context of health and safety for employees. It also has no room for the growing numbers of gardaí, which I recognise. Chief Superintendent Jeffers answered such barracks could be sold and then an agreement entered into on a private greenfield site. I encourage this route.

Commissioner Conroy

We had meetings with the OPW on buildings in a state of disrepair. The premise was to go to the marketplace and possibly go through an exchange process whereby a construction company would provide a particular type of unit for the existing building. Many of our buildings have large grounds and are valuable. However, to spend public money on some of those stations would cost taxpayers a large amount. We have agreed that construction companies will see benefits in a particular site and provide us with a properly kitted-out unit. The OPW is working on it.

Deputy McGuinness

I encourage the Commissioner down that route in Kilkenny where an issue must be addressed.

I have one other question. The day would not be complete if I did not ask about Operation Trace. The last time Commissioner Conroy was before the committee I asked him about the cost. He provided me with a written answer that the cost of Operation Trace is in excess of €1 million. I constantly lobby for an improvement in the training of gardaí in searching and the development of that area.

Does the Commissioner see any merit in the Garda or the Department working with the private sector to provide ongoing up-to-date information on missing persons to the public through leaflet drops or, as is done in America, milk cartons? I am aware that a website has been established and appreciate that €1 million has been spent on Operation Trace but there is no public presence with regard to the search for missing people.

On behalf of families who have missing relatives, I appeal to the Garda to be more proactive in terms of profiling these cases with the public and, perhaps, to find within its budget the money needed to reconstruct the search for Jo JoDullard. People believe such cases are low on the pecking order of Garda activities and I would like to see that change. A case could be made for allowing private enterprise to support the Garda's activities in publicising missing persons investigations, if for no other reason than to demonstrate to the public the Garda's concern. Possibly, the public should be informed of the cost of training gardaí in New York or the UK in searching for missing people.

Commissioner Conroy

As was already noted, our staff have undergone training with different services in the United States and England. We have the best available information technology programmes and we liaise with Interpol, Europol and Bramshill on special programmes to ensure we are equipped to the best standards in Europe. I agree, however, that it is awful when we cannot provide answers to people who have missing relatives. We have also used "Crimecall" on several occasions, as well as Crimestoppers, which ensures that anybody with information can receive a reward if they so wish.

Leaflet drops have been carried out on several occasions and we support any measure that brings information. There are people who have answers on missing people in Ireland but the question of how we get those individuals to provide the vital information we need is difficult to answer. Whenever suspects with a modus operandi which might fit into the equation are identified, they are investigated and their whereabouts on particular dates are checked. With regard to one investigation, for example, we have identified an individual we cannot rule out. We continue to work on the case and hope the individual concerned will give us a better explanation than he has heretofore given.

Deputy McGuinness

I encourage the Commissioner to profile certain cases publicly. I have seen such profiling by Crimestoppers or through leaflet drops but it is not done regularly nor are cases constantly raised with the public. If the Garda engaged with the public through, for example, a reconstruction of the disappearance of Jo Jo Dullard, it might prick the conscience of somebody who possesses information. I do not think enough is being done to profile cases or to create that awareness on an ongoing basis.

Chairman

The Commissioner will recall that the Comptroller and Auditor General prepared a value for money report on the penalty points programme, an issue on which this committee was somewhat critical. Can the Commissioner update us on the effectiveness of the programme?

Commissioner Conroy

The programme is working very well in so far as most of the collection of fines has been outsourced. Post offices collect fines and send the money to a company in Dublin which, in turn, communicates with an office in Cork and the penalty points are then issued to the appropriate individual. Some 70% of those who are detected pay their fines and receive penalty points.

Problems arise with regard to leased cars, such as where a company has leased a number of cars. Legislation clearly indicates that if an individual responds within 28 days, he or she can pay a lower monetary penalty. The subsequent deadline is 56 days and the penalty increases accordingly. If, however, the car involved was not driven by its registered owner and where the driver is identified, the timeframe shifts. As far as the Garda is concerned, we are reasonably happy with the current situation.

Chairman

Has the accuracy of camera imagery improved or does the failure rate remain high?

Commissioner Conroy

We are definitely improving our cameras and, as the Chairman is aware, we are outsourcing them to a private company. We are working very hard on that matter and hope the request for tender will be issued shortly.

Chairman

Will that involve fixed or hand-held cameras?

Commissioner Conroy

It will involve both fixed and hand-held cameras.

Chairman

Does the Garda possess infra-red hand-held cameras which can detect speeding in the dark or are operations daylight only?

Commissioner Conroy

Most of the cameras installed in the GATSO vehicles are designed for daytime use.

Chairman

Will the fixed cameras be usable during night-time conditions?

Chief Superintendent Jeffers

A replace programme has been undertaken with regard to the GATSO cameras we have in stock and night visibility has been improved in every new GATSO camera we receive. The technology provides a certain capability with regard to detection at night.

Chairman

What progress has been made on installing fixed cameras on the roads? Have many been installed already and what is the plan for rolling them out?

Commissioner Conroy

Surveys have been carried out within divisions on where fixed cameras should be installed but use will also be made of vehicles in which camera equipment is installed. That forms part of the request for tender.

Chairman

Does the Commissioner mean that, instead of a hand-held camera, the equipment will be built into a vehicle?

Commissioner Conroy

Yes, our intention is to be able to move the camera to critical collision areas to detect and, hopefully, reduce the number of collisions.

Chairman

In the same report, the committee made a recommendation that information gathered from accidents, especially toxicology and Garda reports, should be accessible because it would seem to laypeople that any programme of road safety could be improved by being able to establish the causes of accidents. When we last examined the issue, the causes of accidents could not be established because the Garda reports and the coroner's toxicology reports were confidential. We recommended that this change and that the reports be made available to respected academics to carry out research into the issue and inform policy makers on the cause of accidents. Has there been any progress on that?

Commissioner Conroy

We work hand in hand with the Road Safety Authority and try to ensure it receives information collected at the scene of an accident. The investigator, having collected information at the scene, completes a prescribed form on returning to the station. That is passed on to the Road Safety Authority and it, in turn, imparts its specialist knowledge to us. We incorporate what we learn in this way into our enforcement policy, particularly in the fields of speeding and drink driving.

Chairman

What about the toxicology reports? Does the Garda Síochána have access to them?

Commissioner Conroy

I cannot answer that but will find out and provide a written answer to the committee.

Chairman

It is surely possible to look at the latest 100 fatal accidents and be able to say that, in the opinion of the coroner and the Garda Síochána, 20 arose because of speeding, 40 because of excess alcohol and five because of bad road conditions. That data, however, does not seem to be available to policy makers or the Road Safety Authority, as we recommended it be. I am looking for an update.

There is a view, supported only by anecdotal evidence, that late night accidents involving young people result more from drug-taking than excessive alcohol. Is any test for drug-taking available or is a test only performed at post-mortem, after a fatality has occurred?

Commissioner Conroy

We have taken several prosecutions in this area. Investigators will observe an individual's driving for clear evidence of drugs and, if appropriate, take the individual concerned to the station. If the intoxilyser in the station does not show an individual to be above the limit for alcohol we generally carry out a blood test. The sample of blood or urine is then sent to the State Laboratory. Our actions are based on intelligence in the possession of the local garda.

Chairman

Does the Garda Síochána test for drugs other than alcohol, or arrest people under suspicion to prevent accidents?

Commissioner Conroy

It does not.

Chairman

I do not want to enter into the debate on random breath testing in rural Ireland but there is a view that young men tear across the countryside up to their ears in cocaine, at the same time as a man, in the classic case, comes home from a pub having had three pints and is tested. I agree with random breath testing and believe it has already been effective but there is a problem, in certain parts of the country more than others, with people fuelled on drugs who seem to have the freedom of the countryside.

Commissioner Conroy

I would not say they have the freedom of the countryside. Our operations are based on intelligence. Local gardaí would know who the local drug-takers were and if they drove cars it would be a matter for the chief superintendent and the superintendent to devise a strategy to deal with it. They see to it that gardaí follow a car to see if an individual is misbehaving on the road. When they arrest a person they do so for breaches of drink driving laws or for having taken drugs. If they do not test positive on the alkaliser in the station a blood sample is taken. They can also inform the State Laboratory as to what drug they suspect an individual to have taken. It is a long process but there have been a number of prosecutions and it is intelligence-driven work.

Chairman

Fair enough. I share Deputy McGuinness's view that drugs are rampant in every community. Respectable working people take drugs and drive. I do not refer to the occasional junkie who is reputed an addict in the community but to a widespread practice across the community, particularly among the young.

Commissioner Conroy

That is the case throughout America and Europe. Drug-traffickers will always follow money and, unfortunately that is what has happened in this jurisdiction, as well as the UK, Holland and other countries.

Chairman

I saw a report in the Irish Examiner on a survey by a polling agency of public confidence levels in the Garda Síochána, which was very complimentary. I am sure the Commissioner is familiar with it. In the sample, 44% of respondents in Limerick said they were afraid to go out at night for a walk, while 20% said they were afraid to go out during the day. I do not think the situation is very different in other parts of the country where there are similar problems. In a very detailed and professional study, that was very complimentary to gardaí in the high levels of public confidence it found, this fact came out as incidental data. Is there any possibility of extra gardaí? I know this is a constant request but they are just not there. It would take 100 extra gardaí to make any impression on my district at the moment.

Commissioner Conroy

Before I came to the meeting this morning I asked the assistant commissioner to review the situation in Limerick. It was not prompted by this meeting but by a conversation I had at another meeting recently. I asked the assistant commissioner, who is based in Cork but has responsibility for Limerick, to tell me his exact requirements because we are transferring several people from another location as probationers for three months and I want to ensure we send some of them into problem areas.

Chairman

Thank you. Is there any possibility of substations, or out-offices, of the Criminal Assets Bureau being placed in other cities? Is there any possibility that there will be a section in Dublin dedicated to crime?

Commissioner Conroy

Every division has asset profilers who were trained with the Criminal Assets Bureau to ascertain information and point out individuals the CAB should home in on. The Criminal Assets Bureau wants specific intelligence on individuals and I see no difficulties in an unemployed person who has a brand new expensive BMW having to explain how he or she got hold of it. The intelligence must be built up to a level where it can be handed over to the Criminal Assets Bureau and we depend on local people to do that. It is then investigated and, no matter what part of the country it takes place in, it will be followed up.

Chairman

The Commissioner indicated to Deputy Burton that his policy was to appoint detective superintendents to all Garda districts.

Commissioner Conroy

The policy is to appoint detective inspectors to all Garda divisions. Limerick, by the way, is getting a detective superintendent, because of the workload.

Chairman

When can we expect the appointment?

Commissioner Conroy

It will happen in the next four weeks.

Chairman

Can Chief Superintendent Jeffers answer the question on Henry Street Garda station?

Chief Superintendent Jeffers

We are still working on Henry Street Garda station with the Office of Public Works. A site is under consideration at the moment for a new station but removing personnel from Henry Street is a considerable move and considerable expense is associated with it. Alternatives are being examined but I understand we are currently looking seriously at a site not too far from that location. We are hopeful about the matter but it is still under consideration.

Chairman

Will you write to me about that?

Chief Superintendent Jeffers

Yes.

Deputy Curran

I wish to take up a point on a line of questioning from the Chairman relating to testing drivers for drug use. We all know of the breathalyser equipment available for alcohol testing but is a similar roadside device available for random testing for drug use?

Commissioner Conroy

Different systems have been tested in the UK, but to my knowledge there is no equipment at this moment that could assist definitively in testing for drugs that may be consumed by an individual driving a car. That is the reason we have taken the road I explained earlier.

Deputy Curran

Would equipment indicate certain, but not all, types of drugs? Is that consistent with the term "will not assist definitively"?

Commissioner Conroy

Yes, but to comply with legislation, a garda must form an opinion that a person has consumed drugs. Generally speaking, when observations are made by a member of the Garda Síochána on intoxication not caused by alcohol, it is very difficult to form an opinion that an individual has consumed a particular drug.

Deputy Curran

I ask the commissioner to put aside the legislation for the moment. This echoes the debate we would have had some years ago about random breath testing. Would a device such as this not have a role to play at least as a deterrent? My understanding is the device would detect a considerable amount of common drugs, although not necessarily every type. I take the commissioner's point on it not detecting drug presence definitively.

To elaborate the point made by the Chairman, when we speak about road fatalities we subsequently know the percentages of people found with alcohol and other drugs, so we know it as a quantifiable issue. Is there a specific place for equipment such as this to be used, if not to definitively detect all cases, to at least use as a deterrent or to detect at an early stage a considerable proportion of drugs that may have been consumed?

Commissioner Conroy

Some police forces carry out roadside checks from time to time where a driver would voluntarily give samples of saliva. Those samples would be analysed to see if there is a percentage of persons driving having consumed illicit drugs. We have not gone down that road but I would have no difficulty in considering or performing such action. I will take the matter up with the director of traffic and let him explore it to see what results would come from it.

Deputy Curran

The Commissioner might keep us informed on that over time.

Last year was a very bad year with regard to serious crime and murders and yet Operation Anvil, in particular, had a considerable amount of success with various notable and large drug seizures. It is often stated that drug seizures only represent approximately 10% of the drugs in use here. Operation Anvil recovered approximately 600 firearms, although I am open to correction on the figures. That is more than one firearm for every day of Operation Anvil, but how many firearms are out there? Are any international standards being considered?

Commissioner Conroy

The terrain of firearms has changed in recent years, particularly in tandem with the importation of drugs. Firearms are very cheap in eastern Europe and members may have read that consignments of illegal drugs are coming into the country accompanied by firearms. It is a major problem when considering the crime problems particularly in Dublin, although Limerick has also experienced gangland shootings.

As we become more successful in tackling illegal drugs, it will tilt the scale in a different direction. Those individuals involved in the trafficking of drugs begin to look at each other with suspicion, and that suspicion will unfortunately lead to fatalities from time to time.

We had 66 cases of homicide last year compared to 63 in 2005, with quite a number involving gang members shooting each other. Nevertheless we are conscious of the problems and we have put many preventative programmes into those communities where we had such problems. Although we do not meet success on all occasions, many people are alive today because of the preventative programmes that continue to be put in place.

Deputy Curran

I acknowledge that and I know of such cases. Is the volume of firearms here growing month on month?

Commissioner Conroy

I cannot state with certainty that the volume is growing but we are finding new modus operandi in the importation of firearms. Our people out there gathering intelligence are reporting that type of information to us and it is difficult to counteract such operations. During the week several handguns were located in the Swords area.

Deputy Curran

The commissioner suggested part of the reason for the problem is that firearms are cheap coming from Eastern Europe. Are there operations between the Garda and police forces in those countries to tackle the problem at source?

Commissioner Conroy

We have several liaison officers in a number of European countries, although not in eastern European countries. On a regular basis we must supplement those people in some of those countries because of the source of illicit drugs coming into the country. We have investigators in other countries working with police forces.

Members may have read from time to time where bodies of Irish people have been found in other countries, and some others are still missing in other countries. There is no doubt that all this hinges on involvement in the illicit drug trade.

Deputy Curran

I have two more lines of questioning. The year-end review had Garda wages, salaries and allowances close on €800 million. Although I do not want to get into the figure — a substantial amount — what proportion of Garda man hours are spent on court duties? To expand a previous point about increased civilianisation; is there a role in this regard for engaging more solicitors to free up additional Garda time at the court end in particular?

Commissioner Conroy

In the Dublin metropolitan region recently we have involved sergeants in the courts as presenting officers. We will expand this as time goes on. These sergeants would collect several charge sheets every morning, along with reports on the arrest and detention of an individual. The arresting garda in such a situation does not have to go to court. The sergeant may well deal with 30, 40 or 50 cases in the courts. He would present and give evidence through the documents made out by the arresting garda. Evidence of the arrest is presented and the individual concerned would turn up in court and respond to his name being called. If it is a minor offence and it is admitted it can be dealt with straight away. If it is a reasonably serious crime and the individual is entitled to free legal aid — it is a matter for the judge to deal with these issues — it may go back for a date. At that stage, because the individual may contest the evidence, the arresting garda will complete the investigation and then, depending on the case, engage the prosecuting solicitor.

Deputy Curran

On that point, the Commissioner mentioned a sergeant dealing with minor cases. Is this being done only in the Dublin metropolitan area?

Commissioner Conroy

Yes, because in the country regions an inspector or superintendent goes into the court to deal with matters. The situation is similar in Cork city and the workload for inspectors and superintendents going to court in some cities is quite heavy. A significant number of hours is spent examining situations before going to court.

Chairman

I now invite Mr. Purcell to conclude.

Mr. Purcell

I will steer clear of operational matters. Regarding Deputy Curran's last point on the desirability of sergeants presenting evidence, there is a court presenter allowance which was quite modest in 2005 but may have risen since. We mentioned the Aran Islands allowance so I felt we should allude to this for the sake of completeness.

On the collection of fines, we are following up on earlier reports and have received information from the Garda and the Department in this regard. I expect that the overall report will be available in the next month or two.

A note given to the committee in May 2006 during the preparation of the report of the Committee of Public Accounts is relevant to the Chairman's point on the validity of camera images. In 2005, in the pilot areas, 108,331 images were captured, of which 49,996 did not result in the issue of a fixed charge notice, primarily because the vehicle was registered outside the State or the number plate could not be distinguished by the cameras in use due to weather conditions or the use of illegal or damaged number plates. It is also stated in that communication that the system was extended to the whole country in February 2006.

In 2005 a total of 5% of the pay bill went on civilians, that is, approximately, €40 million out of a total of €800 million.

I said I would stay away from operational matters but I, personally, see bicycles as very effective, particularly at a local level. The commissioner said there are about 160 of these in use as part of the community policing policy and the intention, pardon the pun, is to roll out many more, including a few hundred being stored in Santry. An evaluation of the effectiveness of the use of bicycles as part of the community policing programme could be worthwhile. I have a legitimate interest in this regard because one of my functions is to examine the systems put in place by the organisations I audit to evaluate the effectiveness of their operations.

To return to the subject matter of the chapter in the report, I understand things go slowly and I would not try to under estimate the difficulties in effecting change in any large organisation but the timeframe in this case goes back as far as the mid 1990s when the need for change was clear. We are now in the latter part of the 2000s and all the necessary changes have not been made. That is not to say there has been no change. As I said in my opening remarks, activities in the garage have been wound down to allow concentration on core activities that will always be necessary for specialised work, security work and so on. It seemed to me the potential value for money that was identified some time ago had not been realised, though I do not under estimate the difficulty in resolving the outstanding matters.

Chairman

May we note Vote 20 and dispose of Chapter 3.1? Agreed. Is there any other business? No.

The witnesses withdrew.

Chairman

The agenda for our next meeting on Thursday, 8 February 2007 is as follows: 2005 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts, Houses of the Oireachtas Commission accounts 2005 and minutes of the Minister for Finance.

The committee adjourned at 13.45 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 8 February 2007.