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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 13 Nov 2008

Chapter 5.1 — Deployment of Garda Vehicles.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy (Garda Commissioner) called and examined.

The committee is examining the 2007 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts, Vote 20 — Garda Síochána, Chapter 5.1 — Deployment of Garda Vehicles.

Witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. The attention of members and witnesses is drawn to the fact that, as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include: the right to give evidence; to produce or send documents to the committee; to appear before the committee either in person or through a representative; to make a written and oral submission; to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents; and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee. Persons invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may need to be made aware of these rights and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or of a Minister, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Mr. Fachtna Murphy, Garda Commissioner. Perhaps the Garda Commissioner would introduce his colleagues.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I appreciate the invitation to appear before the committee today, my first appearance before the committee in my capacity as Accounting Officer for the Garda Vote. In doing so I am delighted to be joined by Mr. John Leamy, chief administrative officer, Garda Síochána; Mr. Michael Culhane, director of finance, Garda Síochána, and Ms Sinead McSweeney, director of communications, Garda Síochána. I am also joined by Mr. Michael Flahive, assistant secretary, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Mr. Michael Kirrane, principal officer, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and two colleagues from the Department of Finance.

Who are those colleagues?

Mr. Paddy Barry

I am a principal officer in the sectoral policy division of the Department. I am accompanied by Mr. Cormac Carey, assistant principal officer in the same division.

You are all welcome. I will now ask Mr. Buckley to introduce Vote 20 — Garda Síochána and chapter 5.1 — Deployment of Garda Vehicles. The full text of the chapter can be found in the annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General or on the website of the Comptroller and Auditor General at www.audgen.gov.ie.

Mr. John Buckley

The Garda Síochána has set out its policing goals and modernisation initiatives in a statement of strategy. The latest statement covers the period 2007-09. In 2007, € 1.4 billion was spent through the Garda Vote. The vast bulk of this spend is on salaries and pensions. Just over €1 billion is spent on pay with extra remuneration accounting for €340 million of this. Pension costs in 2007 came to €230 million.

Chapter 5 of the annual report deals with the purchase of 1,379 vehicles in 2006, which involved acquiring around 60% of the Garda vehicle fleet in one year. In fact, 726 of these vehicles were delivered in the last two months of the year. Normally, acquisitions are made after analysis informed by the Garda fleet management system, but this round of purchasing was a radical departure from that practice.

The implications of the departure were that since fitting out is done by a contract firm that cannot readily increase its output, vehicles remained in storage for many months. In fact, some vehicles were not deployed for well over a year. While we are assured by the Garda authorities that the warranty does not begin to run until a vehicle is commissioned, it does depreciate to some extent with the passage of time. Since over half the fleet was acquired in a single time period the same proportion will ultimately fall to be replaced at the one time, which will again impact on attempts to normalise the replacement schedule until after 2011.

The cause of the accelerated acquisition pattern was simply the availability of money. As well as the €11.2 million originally provided, a further €17 million became available towards the end of the year. The fact that this money would have to be surrendered if it was not spent led to the drawdown of vehicles far beyond the capacity to deploy them. Some 941 of the vehicles acquired in 2006 were unassigned by year end and 308 remained unissued one year later, along with a further 145 vehicles purchased in 2007.

The apparent lesson from a public accountability point of view is that there is a need to align funding with a replacement schedule dictated by policing needs. It is important that the modernisation and change being pursued by the Garda Síochána would extend to good budget management, commitment control and ordering. From the perspective of the wider system, it would be useful if some carryover mechanism could be found for the spending envelopes in the area of vehicles. If this could be done it would help to ensure that procurement was timed to coincide closely with operational needs, while at the same time overall State treasury management would be optimised since the money would remain in central funds until they were utilised.

The Garda Síochána has commissioned a consultancy study to advise it on the best future mix of vehicles in the fleet. The Accounting Officer will be in a position to update the committee on the progress in that regard.

I now invite Commissioner Murphy to make his opening statement.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

The structure of the Garda Síochána comprises a central headquarters, national support units and geographical operational units organised into six regions, 25 divisions, 109 districts and 703 sub-districts. The strength of the Garda service on 31 December 2007 was 13,755 sworn members, inclusive of all ranks. The strength of the force as at 30 September 2008 was 14,284 sworn members, all ranks.

There were 2,635 civilians employed in various administrative, professional and technical posts as at 30 September 2008, compared to 1,979 civilians at the end of 2006. We have made significant progress to date in the recruitment of civilian staff at all levels and grades yielding new efficiencies and introducing new expertise throughout the Garda organisation. In that regard, we have recently employed an executive director of information technology and communications. We have also employed a number of analysts and a head of legal services, as well as a director of communications and a chief administrative officer, both of whom are here today.

In 2007, the overall budget for the Garda Vote was €1.437 billion, while the budget for 2008 is almost €1.578 billion, an increase of €141 million, or 9.8%, over the 2007 allocation. The Estimate provision for 2009 is €1.550 billion.

The most recent quarterly crime statistics showed that murders in 2008 were 25 down on last year, a decrease of 44%. Murders in 2007 had increased significantly over 2006 with 60 recorded in 2006 and 78 recorded for 2007. The figures also indicate at this point that earlier upward trends in offences such as theft and burglary are being reversed in the latter part of the year. This follows a number of targeted initiatives and operations in the course of the last six months.

It might be helpful to mention briefly some new initiatives and developments which have taken place in the interests of efficiency and accountability. The Garda Síochána has: introduced a performance and accountability framework; implemented a new management system for handling covert human intelligence sources, CHIS; established a crime training faculty; introduced extensive training programmes for senior investigating officers and crime scene investigators; appointed specially trained forensic collision investigators; appointed family liaison officers; introduced new, comprehensive treatment of persons in custody records and guidelines; expanded the mountain bike unit enabling us to introduce it into new areas right across the country; and, most importantly, has commenced work on re-energising our community policing model.

There are currently nine staff — four sworn and five civilian support staff — in the Garda internal audit section, which is headed by a professional accountant with extensive experience of internal audit within the public sector. I can provide the committee with a list of all audits undertaken by the Garda internal audit section for 2006, 2007 and to date in 2008, if it so wishes.

In accordance with section 44 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005, a statutory audit committee was established in 2006 with functions as per the Act. In accordance with good governance, I have formally agreed a detailed audit charter with the committee.

As regards the Garda fleet, I now wish to address briefly the issue raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General on the deployment of Garda vehicles. As the committee may be aware, a Supplementary Estimate passed in 2006 provided an additional €17 million for the transport subhead of the Garda Vote with the objectives of first, substantially improving the age profile of the Garda fleet; second, increasing the size of the fleet; and third, facilitating the expansion of the traffic corps. Inevitably, given the fact that these funds were not confirmed until the second half of 2006, the number of vehicles purchased was skewed towards the last quarter of that year.

In purchasing vehicles, the Garda Síochána avails of centrally negotiated Government Supplies Agency contracts. As such, we are obliged to purchase vehicles at contracted prices and consequently additional price reductions or discounts were not sought at this time.

The Ford Motor Company is the principal supplier of Garda vehicles and it adopts a policy of quoting the lowest price possible under its pricing mechanism to ensure that it wins as much of the State vehicle supply business as possible. It is clear from this that if we had sought additional discounts to reflect the increased volume of purchases in 2006, those discounts would not have been forthcoming. The size of the Garda fleet increased from 2,189 vehicles at the end of 2006 to 2,679 vehicles at present. In addition the number of vehicles under two years old has risen from 1,009 to 1,666 vehicles at present with the average age of the Garda fleet now standing at 2.4 years.

On the future in this regard, and of course I accept the views and advice of the Comptroller and Auditor General on this matter, a fleet profile and optimisation study for the Garda fleet is under way. Its aim is to determine the safest, most reliable and fuel efficient vehicles for the fleet. The findings and recommendations of the study will be available in mid-December 2008 and will enhance the capacity of the Garda Síochána to deliver a professional fleet management service as well as aligning the Garda Síochána to best practice in police fleet management.

At the previous Commissioner's appearance before the committee in February 2007 the subject of the outsourcing of the maintenance of the Garda fleet was discussed. The evaluation of tender proposals for this contract is currently ongoing and is almost complete.

I will stop there, Chairman. I and my team are available to take whatever questions you and the committee wish to raise.

May we publish your statement?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Yes.

The Commissioner stated that next year's estimated spend will be down to €1.55 billion. Since salaries will remain at least static, where does he see the necessary savings in the Garda budget being made?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

In line with Departments, I am taking on board the reductions that are required in terms of payroll and costs. One of the areas to be affected will be the area of overtime expenditure. This year the estimated provision was €107.9 million. The outturn will be something higher than that. It is likely that I will have in the region of €80 million available to me for overtime next year and in line with everybody else, I must prioritise how I spend that. As I have been doing through this year in talking to my people, and instructing and advising them, and getting my officials to go around the country, in terms of prudent management of the expenditure of overtime, I will be focussing on front-line policing and ensuring that the expenditure of the overtime budget will be applied accordingly.

In other words, Mr. Murphy is saying front-line policing will not be affected.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I do not intend that it will be. If I have to make hard decisions during the year, and I have already had to make some hard decisions on aligning the cutbacks in payroll costs, I will do so. It may well be that I will have to reduce, defer or slow down some projects which are not core projects in terms of where we are going in providing that front-line policing service. In an ideal world we would always like to do everything at the one time and bring everything along, but there is a priority rule which should apply and I will apply that towards front-line policing, targeting drugs — I have done so since I started as Commissioner and it is a big issue — targeting gangland crime, providing a community policing service and providing the policing that the country needs at this point in time.

Will covert operations be maintained or increased? That was one of the issues raised by a number of people in recent times. Is Mr. Murphy happy that covert operations will be maintained or even increased to deal with what we have seen in recent times?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I am glad that the Chairman has given me an opportunity to discuss that because some issues have been raised on covert policing. One may get the view that we do not engage in covert policing. As a police force I have people dealing in covert policing on a daily basis and we see some of the results. Some of the captures of firearms and drugs are clearly the result of that kind of covert policing.

I and my senior officials have been in discussion with the Minister and the senior officials of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on a new surveillance Bill. I am glad to see that the Minister is moving that on. It should provide another tool in our armoury.

In the meantime we will continue to engage in covert surveillance. I hope the surveillance Bill will provide the statutory support for introducing formally in the courts the evidence that will flow from that type of intrusive surveillance. I want to make that clear distinction. We are engaged in covert policing in a common law sense, and have been since the formation of the State, but what is happening now is that there is an initiative towards putting it on a statutory basis.

I thank Mr. Murphy.

I welcome Commissioner Murphy and his team and the officials from the Department of Finance.

The Chairman asked about overtime. Did the Commissioner state that the overtime budget for 2009 will be €80 million?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

That is what has been provided in our work.

In 2007, it was €138 million, between overtime and extra attendance. In the current climate, that is quite a drastic cutback.

The one issue often raised is Garda appearances at court and the resources taken up within the Court Service in bringing people to court. Is it possible to put a monetary amount on that? Is the area of how Garda resources are used for bringing people to court being looked at in terms of cost and in terms of procedures to reduce the number of gardaí who must go into court on any given day? Would the Commissioner have any idea how many gardaí would be in court on an average day?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

On the overtime spend for court attendance, some 10% of our overtime spend can be utilised for supporting people's attendance at court. On what I am doing about it, there are two sides to this coin. I must expose my probational gardaí to court attendance, particularly in their early stages of training when they are out on the street. There are aspects of court work to which it is essential young gardaí are exposed and I want to ensure that happens. In that regard, I would insist that each probational garda would attend in court for their first ten cases. For instance, in Dublin we have a court presenter system. I have had a working party looking at that with a view to spreading that to all of Dublin. There will be fewer members of the Garda Síochána in court when that system applies.

The law of the land requires attendance. It requires viva voce evidence. It is inevitable from time to time that members of the Garda Síochána would have to attend court.

In terms of managing it from a Garda perspective, my senior managers are always looking at ensuring that members of the Garda Síochána only spend the minimum amount of time in court and that when a member has given his or her evidence, he or she can be excused. We rely of course on prosecution and defence counsel to support us in that. There are times when that does not happen, that counsel — often defence counsel — insists on the gardaí being available to be called. Every opportunity, as far as I am concerned, is focussed towards reducing unnecessary expenditure in that regard.

The Commissioner stated that approximately 10% of the overtime budget can be utilised for supporting people's attendance at court. I asked how many gardaí would be in court on any given day. I accept that it is difficult to quantify. However, as regards Dublin, if the figure represents 10% of the overtime budget, does this mean that 5% of Garda resources would be devoted to court appearances on any given day?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It could well be in that area. However, there are other arrangements throughout the country where sergeants are deployed locally to co-ordinate court appearances. This is an issue that arises on a daily basis. My officials are working on it and I am hoping to extend the court presenter service that applies in respect of the inner city courts to all courts throughout Dublin. The latter should prove to be of assistance.

The Commissioner stated that approximately 2.600 civilians are employed with the Garda Síochána for administrative purposes. Are there plans to expand the use of civilians to carry out administrative tasks within the force in order to release gardaí from desk duties? The Commissioner has adopted a strong approach in respect of this matter and has tried to increase Garda visibility. Is there a move to release more gardaí from office work and deploy them on the streets? Is the policy in this regard, which has probably been more successful in some areas rather than others, set to continue?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It will continue within current budgetary constraints. My predecessors and I have pushed for more civilian support for many years. In the past two years we twice obtained Government sanction to increase the number of civilians employed by the Garda Síochána by 300. The ratio of civilian personnel to gardaí is approximately 1:7. I would like this to be reduced to approximately 1:3 or 1:4, which is the position in many other jurisdictions. However, I will be obliged to operate within the budgetary parameters that will apply in the coming years. I will focus on endeavouring to increase the level of civilian support.

A great deal has happened in recent years in the context of the changes that have occurred. Senior positions such as those of director of ICT, head of legal affairs, director of communications, chief administrative officer — a post held by Mr. Leamy who is present with me — and director of finance were civilianised. My core focus is to get gardaí out on the street and ensure they are visible in order that communities will be provided with the level of reassurance they require. As already stated, however, the decisions I make will be impacted upon by budgetary constraints.

Soon after I took over as Commissioner I established a working party chaired by the chief administrative officer, Mr. Leamy, to review opportunities for further civilianisation. I must be realistic and inform the Deputy that at present I am obliged to make difficult decisions in this regard. I am also being obliged to make such decisions in respect of the recruitment of new members of the Garda Síochána. In recent times we have been recruiting 1,100 sworn officers each year or 275 on each occasion on which there is an intake at Templemore. The intake this month — the fourth this year — was reduced to 100. I anticipate that this will continue to be the case, certainly for the coming year. Like everyone else, what we can do will be dictated by what happens to the economy.

I am pleased the Government has supported me by allowing me to continue with an intake of 100 recruits per quarter or 400 per year. There are 1,100 people in training, so the targets we would hope to reach by the end of 2012 — I accept that the date may be moved back — remain in place. We will, however, continue to recruit. I also hope to ensure that civilian recruitment remains ongoing. However, I will be obliged to make difficult decisions on foot of budgetary constraints.

Some 300 civilians were taken on in 2006 and another 300 were taken on in 2007. Were corresponding numbers of gardaí released on to the streets as a result of this? It is important that the force should continue to recruit staff in order that it might rejuvenate itself. There is a commitment in the programme for Government to increase the number of gardaí. Is it safe to say that if 300 civilians were taken on last year to carry out administrative work, then 300 gardaí were released from desk duty and deployed on the streets?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I cannot provide precise figures but I will indicate how the system works. We established a Garda information centre in Castlebar, at which up to 170 people are employed. This centre was set up on the basis that individual gardaí would not be obliged to return to Garda stations in order to input information into the PULSE system. We have provided gardaí on the streets with mobile phones and this enables them to contact the information centre in Castlebar. Some 99% of those employed at the centre are civilians and they are charged with inputting the details supplied by officers on the street into the PULSE system. This is a direct example of what we are doing to provide a visible Garda presence on the streets.

I have received positive feedback in recent times regarding Garda visibility on the streets. I accept that the number of officers serving with the force has increased and I would expect there to be increased visibility as a result. My job is to ensure that gardaí are deployed in the right areas, that is, the places where they presence is required most.

The Commissioner referred to recruitment. What is the position vis-à-vis retirement from the force?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Some 160 officers are due to retire this year. The projected retirement figure for 2009 will be 406. The figure for retirements in 2008 is so low because, as the committee is aware, a number of years ago the Government changed the maximum retirement age for gardaí, sergeants and inspectors from 57 to 60. The fallout from the measure is still being felt. With a projected intake of 400 next year and a projected retirement figure of 406, one will almost match the other. However, there are some 1,100 officers in training at present because up to now I have been recruiting 275 people each quarter. This will ensure that the number of sworn officers within An Garda Síochána will continue to increase.

Reference is made to travel and subsistence in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. The budget in this regard last year was €27 million but the outturn was €37.5 million. It is stated that two of the main reasons for this were events at Rossport and Operation Anvil. Will the Commissioner provide details of the specific costs relating to additional policing at Rossport and also indicate the level of resources deployed during the protests there?

If any of the Commissioner's colleagues wish to comment on these matters, they are free to do so at any time.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I will provide the overall figures and my colleagues can then contribute. The total expenditure for 2006, excluding salaries, on overtime allowances, travel and subsistence, and PRSI employer's contribution was €1.382 million. The equivalent expenditure in 2007 was €4.821 million and the total expenditure to date in 2008 is €1.695 million. Since 2005 the total spend in this area is €11.1 million.

Is that for Rossport?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Yes.

The Garda had to deploy additional resources in Rossport that were not planned when the protests kicked off. How many gardaí are deployed there and how many were deployed at the height of the protests? I am trying to picture the number of members who had to deal with the issue.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It is not active in Rossport currently but when the pipe-laying on land scheduled for 2009 commences again, up to 150 members could be required per day depending on the action of the protestors. On a few occasions there were national days of protest in Rossport and we had to deploy up to 250 gardaí, including units of the public order unit to deal with them.

That must be a massive strain on resources in other areas. When a national day of protest takes place in Rossport and an additional 250 gardaí must be deployed, are they brought in from Connacht or elsewhere? What knock-on effect has that?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

The responsibility for policing Rossport in the main rests with the assistant commissioner in charge of the western region but we have had to bring members from Dublin, Cork, Limerick and elsewhere on occasion. Naturally, that has an effect on the number policing the areas from where they are drawn but that is probably why considerable overtime expenditure has been incurred. We have had to deploy people on overtime to police Rossport. Up to the end of September 2008, approximately €11 million has been spent since issues arose there.

Over two and a half years.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Three years.

Up to 250 gardaí are deployed for a national day of protest and 150 on other days.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

On occasion but not when there is no protest. We do not leave people sitting there waiting for a protest.

I refer to Garda vehicles. I have a number of questions for the officials from the Department of Finance. According to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, a Supplementary Estimate for €17 million was passed in the final months of 2006. If the Garda did not spend the €28 million allocated to purchase vehicles, what is the position of the Department of Finance? Is it that the money has been allocated and the Garda must go back and seek the same allocation the following year? Is that correct?

Mr. Paddy Barry

We have an annual accounting system both on the expenditure side and on the tax side. That is correct.

However, the Comptroller and Auditor General stated in his opening contribution that there is no provision for a carry-over in such expenditure.

Mr. Paddy Barry

Garda road vehicles are classified as current expenditure. They fall within the current budget. There is some provision for carry-over in the capital budget but not for current expenditure.

According to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, more than 700 Garda vehicles were purchased but only one third of them were deployed in the following year. It is clear this was a Department of Finance issue as well as a Garda issue. If a Supplementary Estimate specific to the purchase of Garda vehicles is presented late in the year and the Garda can flag it to the Department that this will be a problem, both the Department and the Garda should be able to deal with it. Are plans being considered to rectify a situation like this?

Mr. Paddy Barry

The Commissioner has explained the operational implications of the fleet management policy of the Garda. In the course of the annual Estimates procedure, we engage with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and indirectly with the Garda Síochána on getting best value for money from expenditure on vehicles.

It is clear best value for money was not achieved in this instance.

Will this be changed? The Supplementary Estimate was not presented until 6 December 2006. Will this practice continue? Why has this practice not changed, as it puts an almost impossible burden on Departments to spend just before Christmas?

Mr. Paddy Barry

That is the nature of Government financial procedures. There are lessons to be learned from this experience and I am sure we will learn them.

Is the Department examining a change in procedures relating to the purchase of vehicles for the Garda or the Defence Forces and so on?

Mr. Paddy Barry

I assure the committee that when we receive proposals on the purchase of vehicles, we will learn from this experience in the course of the annual budgetary procedures.

The difficulties we have every week, no matter what agency or Department is before us, are with procurement and value for money. This sticks out like a sore thumb. I do not exonerate the Garda completely but the force has a serious issue if an additional €17 million is provided for the purchase of vehicles and it has only four months to do so. If this arose again, what could the Department do differently?

Mr. Paddy Barry

We could explore with the spending Department or constituent body, such as the Garda, its proposed way to spend the money.

Was the money allocated on a use it or lose it basis? Does that not encourage a year-end scramble to spend money at all costs because otherwise it is lost? What arrangement was there with——

Mr. Paddy Barry

I would not characterise it as use it or lose it. We have an annual cash budget. That is the system of Government accounting we have. It is part of the architecture within which public service managers plan and organise their expenditure. It is a matter for managers in various public service agencies to ensure they obtain value for the money they receive from the Exchequer. That system of accounting has been there since time immemorial.

However, in this case, neither the Department of Finance nor the Garda obtained value for money because the purchase of additional Garda vehicles took place speedily. I agree with the Chair that it looks to anyone who reads it that it was done on a" use it or lose it" spending basis. It has happened now. What will we do to change the system?

Mr. Paddy Barry

As the Garda Commissioner has explained, he has put working groups in place on the vehicle profile and is organising the outsourcing of fleet maintenance.

That is grand. I am talking about purchase. There is a value for money report here that goes back 13 years, to 1995. The procedures relating to procurement of these Garda vehicles did not follow the procedures in that 13 year old report. We did not learn lessons in 13 years — this goes for the Garda as well as the Department of Finance — but what would we do differently now? What would the Department of Finance and the Garda do differently if there was a Supplementary Estimate passed four months before the end of the year to purchase Garda vehicles or any other type of equipment that is non-capital expenditure? What would they do differently now?

Mr. Paddy Barry

It is obvious that the Department of Finance would want to have better information on the detailed replacement planning of the force before we would sign up to a Supplementary Estimate on something like this. We would certainly engage with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and with the Garda.

Therefore, there would be preplanning before the Estimate was passed. In this instance, then, are we saying there was not?

Mr. Paddy Barry

Ideally there should be, but in the nature of things that does not always happen.

Perhaps this question is for the Commissioner. Did the Garda look for the extra €17 million during the course of that year? Did the request come from the Garda to increase its budget for purchasing vehicles to €28 million?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It arose in the context of a supplementary budget. To pick up on what has been said by my Department of Finance colleague, what we are doing to ensure we are providing value for money arrangements is that we have put in place a fleet profile and optimisation study which will ensure we will have a structured system in place for the future so that we will not seek money in December of any given year for purchases. We are also outsourcing the maintenance of the Garda fleet.

Perversely, what happened then — I have taken over since as Commissioner — has provided me with opportunities. The average age of the fleet has reduced substantially. Therefore, in the difficult times we face — the Deputy asked how I would spend my budget next year — I will not have to expend as much money as I would normally have to on the purchase of new vehicles. This will be the case for a short period of time. Perversely, therefore, there has been some benefit from the situation.

I totally accept the Comptroller and Auditor General's view with regard to how the purchasing was handled. The arrangements we are putting in place will, I hope, ensure that the value for money guidelines are strictly adhered to.

Coming back to finance, there is something I do not understand. The man in the street knows that one does not buy a car in December 2006 because it is a year-old car one month later, resulting in a 20% to 25% depreciation. The cars that were bought in 2006 will be three years old next year. Why was the Garda not able to put the money provided into the following year's Estimate, a month later? We come across issues like this with regard to procurement week in and out in the public service. Our concern is so serious that we have to look at the issue specifically. I do not understand how the Garda could not have put the money in the following month's Estimate. The practical effect of that would have been that there would have been no mad scramble to spend and the cars bought would be a year younger and 25% more valuable.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report points out that most of the vehicles were registered in 2007. They were not registered in 2006. The storage and warranty were on them from the start. The costs incurred were for storage and warranty. The vehicles were registered the following year.

They were bought in 2006, although they may have been registered in 2007. Only one third of the 740 cars were used in that year.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I accept that.

This would tell us the cars were purchased because the money was there. While it is good to say this had some kind of positive impact, in a perverse way it seems they were bought without any proper planning for their use. I will not dwell on the issue, but the committee should make a strong recommendation that such a situation should not be repeated. I was glad to hear Mr. Barry say the Department of Finance will examine the situation.

We do not want to return to a situation like this in two year's time. We have an old value for money report, 13 years old, that is still valid and another study taking place now that will probably make the same recommendations, namely the need to adhere to the procedures. The Department of Finance needs to try to be flexible in some way. I know this is difficult on the accounting side, but it must be flexible with regard to planning purchases. This must happen and that must be part of the strong recommendation that comes from this committee.

On the deployment of Garda vehicles, is it not clear to Commissioner Murphy and Mr. Barry that the purchase of the additional vehicles was driven by the availability of funds? Is that not quite clear from the report?

Mr. Paddy Barry

We received a request from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, on behalf of the Garda Síochána, for these funds. The funds were sanctioned on the basis that the expenditure would be done in a value for money manner and that the Accounting Officer of the Garda Síochána and the Secretary General of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform would ensure this was done. As the Garda Commissioner has explained, in effect, there was a reasonable degree of value for money. The cost of storage was borne by the suppliers and the cars were registered in 2007, so that there was no loss of value because of the date of registration.

The Department of Finance operates under financial procedures on what is obviously a "use it or lose it" basis. Therefore, was the Garda not in the position that if it did not buy the vehicles, it would have no vehicles? The supplementary budget would have become extinct and the money would not have been available from 1 January.

Mr. Paddy Barry

If it had not bought the vehicles in 2006, that is correct. That is the accounting system we have.

Rather than put too much of a focus on the Garda vehicle position, does Mr. Barry accept a similar situation arises with regard to virtually every Department? A few weeks ago, we had similar questions with regard to the funds for the Abbey Theatre. Mr. Barry mentioned that Government financial procedures have been in existence since time immemorial. There is a saying used in law sometimes that "the law is an ass". Does Mr. Barry agree that the same could be said with regard to these financial procedures? They need to be changed on a general basis, not just for dealing with this specific issue.

Mr. Paddy Barry

When I said the procedures are there from time immemorial, I was not making a virtue of their antiquity. They serve the purpose of helping us to balance the budget on an annual basis. If current expenditure was to be committed over several years, we would have no guarantee that the taxes would flow in, as we know to our dismay currently. If we had made commitments two or three years ago that were predicated on liquid tax returns, we would be in an even more difficult situation. The annual budgeting procedures have a certain benefit and ensure a certain degree of discipline.

Does Mr. Barry not now accept that in some instances this imposes a ridiculous straitjacket resulting in effect in the taxpayer not getting best value for money?

Mr. Paddy Barry

I would accept there are lessons to be learned from this experience. As I have indicated it may have more horizontal application.

Would Mr. Barry accept that some years ago, the procedures on capital expenditure were changed because of this very difficulty, that those changes worked well and that now there is a compelling case for a change with regard to current expenditure, not opening the floodgates but at least taking account of best business procedure in spending the taxpayers' money?

Mr. Paddy Barry

Very different principles apply with regard to capital expenditure——

Mr. Paddy Barry

It is normally an investment in the economy.

Some people would regard the purchase of 784 vehicles as being a capital purchase.

Mr. Paddy Barry

It is a lot of money but it is actually classified as current expenditure in Government accounting and I am sure in private accounting also.

I ask Mr. Barry to pass on to his colleagues my view which I think is shared by all my colleagues here that this whole issue needs to be examined on a general basis. The Garda vehicles are just one example to come before the committee.

Mr. Paddy Barry

I will bring the views of the committee members to the attention of the Department.

Will the Commissioner say if all these vehicles have been fully deployed?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

This was a time when the Garda Síochána was under pressure to ensure that it could maintain the increase in the traffic corps. There were plenty of opportunities to use these vehicles and indeed the inspectorate subsequently made recommendations with respect to increasing the number of Garda vehicles throughout the country. The utilisation is maximum at the moment and in a perverse way it has provided me with opportunities because of the reduced age of the fleet. I repeat I fully accept the Comptroller and Auditor General's views on the way this matter was dealt with. I hope the optimisation study coupled with the outsourcing will ensure that from a Garda perspective it is managed in accordance with value for money guidelines.

Did the effect of the initial purchase in 2006 mean that there were fewer purchases in 2007 and 2008?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Yes.

Has the Commissioner any figures on that?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I will ask the director of finance to deal with that question.

Mr. Michael Culhane

A total of 336 cars were purchased in 2007 and to date 160 cars have been purchased in 2008.

Would this number be far fewer than the normal annual amount?

Mr. Michael Culhane

Yes.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I regret to say it will be less again in 2009.

The report states it was planned to deploy 124 vehicles in the first quarter of 2008. These are the vehicles purchased as a result of the Supplementary Estimate in 2006. The report states that it was planned to deploy the remaining 184 vehicles in the second quarter of 2008. When was the last car deployed in 2008?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I will ask the director of finance to reply.

Mr. Michael Culhane

The last cars were assigned by the end of June 2008. The 180 cars are assigned over time. I do not mean that 180 cars were assigned in June 2008——

In the second quarter, between March and June 2008?

Mr. Michael Culhane

Yes, in that period of time. They were assigned to various purposes over that period of time.

I wish to raise one other issue. Reference was made to certain procedures which precluded the Commissioner's predecessor from looking for further discount on such an additional bulk order. Is there some straitjacket in operation of which I am not aware? I would have thought that if one were in the market for an additional 700 or 800 vehicles coming up to Christmas, that one would be in a very strong position? The Commissioner is a west Cork man like myself and if he were going to the fair with that kind of money, he should be able to make a very good deal. Is there something in place which precluded a better deal being made?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I am sure that varies depending on the part of Ireland but I will get the facts from the director of finance who dealt with that issue of discount and helped me to respond to the Comptroller on that issue.

Mr. Michael Culhane

The Garda Síochána purchases cars through central negotiated contracts which have been negotiated by the Government Supplies Agency. When a tender is put into the market, indicative volumes are given and prices are quoted by the suppliers on that basis. However, as the Ford Motor Company is our principal supplier, we made contact with it and it has confirmed that in accordance with our international pricing practices, they quote the lowest price possible for State vehicle requirements in order to win the maximum share of that business. While it would appear that we should reasonably have expected an additional discount, Ford has confirmed in writing to us that it would not have been in a position to grant any additional discounts as its approach is to quote the minimum price possible in order to win the maximum amount of business.

Mr. Culhane mentioned that Ford's figure was based on indicative volumes which I presume would not have included this very substantial pre-Christmas order in 2006.

Mr. Michael Culhane

That is correct.

Would that not have been a basis for going back to them to indicate that this Christmas bonanza was available and to deal for better terms? Would that have been done directly by the Garda Síochána, by the Department or by the Government Supplies Agency? Who would be interfacing with the Ford Motor Company in finalising the deal?

Mr. Michael Culhane

The contract is negotiated by the Government Supplies Agency, which is the contract-awarding authority. From an operational point of view, the Garda Síochána interacts with Ford. We deal with them directly——

Is that on the basis of arrangements previously put in place by the Government Supplies Agency?

Mr. Michael Culhane

The tender is put in place as a result of public procurement procedures and as a result of those procedures we are not in a position to renegotiate the terms that have been quoted under those procedures. We are obliged to purchase at those prices. In this instance, Ford has confirmed to us that it has quoted the lowest price possible.

I am merely investigating to see if there is some lesson to be learned in the unlikely event of such a pre-Christmas bonanza being available. Is there something to be learned from the point of view of improving the procedures for dealing with companies like Ford where an unexpected major order is being placed?

Mr. Michael Culhane

I am sure there are opportunities in the case of such a large purchase to negotiate some more favourable discounts. The contracts had been negotiated based on indicative volumes and those prices were quoted on that basis. We would have had to re-tender the market and given the amount of time available, that would not have been possible. I emphasise the point again that we have confirmation from Ford that it has quoted the lowest possible price. It was not possible to explore whether we would have been in a position to achieve additional discounts.

It would say that, would it not?

Mr. Michael Culhane

Perhaps it would.

I ask Mr. Barry to note that in any general review, this issue should be looked at in a general sense.

Mr. Paddy Barry

Certainly.

To return to the general Garda Vote, are the numbers referred to the fully attested gardaí? I used to have regular jousts with the former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, when he attempted to include in his numbers people who were just in the door at Templemore. Are these fully-attested gardaí?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

The numbers I quoted gave the strength of the Garda service in terms of sworn officers. As of 31 December 2007 it was 13,755. The strength of the force in terms of sworn officers as of 30 September 2008 was 14,284 all ranks. That does not include the number of people we have in training. Because of the procedures we adopted to increase the strength of the force significantly up to 15,000, over the past few years at any given time we would have 1,100 people who could be classified as student gardaí in training because we were taking in four tranches of 275 per tranche over a year. That situation is pertaining right now except that it is going to be naturally reduced significantly over the next year because I will only be taking in 100 trainee gardaí in a given quarter, which is 400 in the year. The figure I have quoted is for sworn attested members of the Garda Síochána.

Once the present tranche of trainee gardaí is through the system and fully attested, the likelihood is for the foreseeable future that there will be approximately 400 recruits taken in each year.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Certainly, that is what is down for next year.

That will probably be even fewer than the number going out.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It should not really be. The trend has been approximately 400 people as the norm. It is like a run on the bank I suppose. The force was increased substantially in the early 1970s. In the early 2000s there were more people who had reached retirement eligibility, so to speak. More people could go. The pattern right through the 2000s so far has been a retirement stream of approximately 400. We have never had difficulty in recruiting and we have never had difficulties with large numbers retiring at one particular time. The estimated figures would mean that by the end of next year, taking into account the number of people projected as going to retire at 406 and the number of people in training, which will be 400 in the year, the force will reach approximately 14,950 by December 2009. It will reduce somewhat by December 2010. Our projections are that the force will be in the region of 14,670. Those are the projected figures so I do not envisage any great difficulties. That is because we have been able to get authority and sanction to take in 100 per tranche, per quarter, for the foreseeable future.

Under the heading of compensation for the estimate before us there is an outturn of €32 million, which is twice the original estimate. A breakdown is given between civil actions against the Garda, the Garda Síochána compensation scheme and claims arising from accidents involving Garda vehicles. The total paid under civil actions against the Garda went from approximately €2 million in 2006 to approximately €14 million in 2007. Was that Donegal-related or was there a particular reason for that very substantial jump in the amounts paid under the heading of civil actions against the Garda?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I shall ask the director of finance to deal with that.

Mr. Michael Culhane

Regarding the compensation, there were a number of civil cases settled in relation to Donegal in 2007. The Frank Shortt court order payments were €4.6 million. In the Frank Shortt family cases there were six instances. In 2007, there were a total of 102 cases which were categorised as Donegal cases. Some 73 cases have been settled and determined up to December 2007 at a total amount of €10.4 million of which approximately €8 million was paid out in 2007. Costs to date for 24 of the cases were €1.6 million of which €550,000 was paid out in 2007. Five cases were discontinued in 2008. Currently there are 24 cases on hand in relation to Donegal, which the Deputy mentioned specifically.

Is a figure included in the 2008 Estimates?

Mr. Michael Culhane

In so far as those cases have been settled they will be included in the 2008 Vote. I do not have the quantum of the settlements.

With regard to accidents involving Garda vehicles, are all of these claims dealt with by the State Claims Agency? Do I take it there is no insurance involved? Does the Garda carry its own insurance?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

The State indemnifies.

I ask the Deputy to ask a final question, as we want to move on.

I note Garda aircraft are valued at €12.8 million. What does that cover? What aircraft does the Garda have? Is this the Garda helicopter? Does it have more than one? Was the Garda involved in the recent knock-down sale of the Dauphin helicopters?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I will tell the Deputy what we have. I have learned some lessons. At the moment we have a fixed-wing Defender aircraft, which has been operational since 1997. We have two EC135 helicopters. One has been operational since 2003 and the other has been operational since 2007. On 11 November 2007 we decommissioned an AS355 N Twin Squirrel helicopter, which we have not yet sold.

I hope the Commissioner is looking for a good price for it. I will leave that in his hands.

The Garda has a number of strategic goals in the area of firearms and drugs. It is seeking a 5% increase in the number of seizures of drugs and has exceeded that by up to 27%. The Garda was seeking a reduction in incidents involving the use of firearms, but there has been a substantial increase instead. Deputy Deasy recently inquired about an unco-ordinated inconsistent approach in the licensing of firearms across the country. I am not sure if it is done on a divisional or district basis. Apparently it has led to an increase in the licensing of such handguns from approximately 300 to 1,800 in the past four years. There are great discrepancies across areas. In some instances it apparently involves not just air pistols but serious weaponry like Glock and Sig Sauer guns. Has the Garda Commissioner taken a grip of that issue?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I have a handle on it and my officials are working with Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform officials on dealing with that issue, which I consider a very serious issue. There are approximately 1,800 licensed handguns in this jurisdiction. The Deputy might recall that during the Troubles in Northern Ireland right from a Government decision in 1972, there was literally no licensing of any firearm in excess of .22 calibre. The issue about which the Deputy speaks is the licensing authority, which is essentially the local superintendent. The person who has absolute charge of licensing is the local superintendent, subject, of course, to the courts. The court decided that the Garda Commissioner of the day could not issue guidelines or directions to superintendents, and that every superintendent had to deal with each case on its own merits. When the Government order was lifted some years ago, opportunities arose for the licensing of handguns. Some 1,800 handguns are licensed at present. Superintendents have made objections in court in many cases. The courts have overturned that. Essentially, it seems to me that the calibre of the firearm was no longer an issue. The issue at stake was the suitability and character of the individual who was applying for the firearms licence. If Deputy Jim O'Keeffe applied for a licence, we could almost be guaranteed that he would be able to get a licence for a fairly significant firearm. That is the position we — the State — have been in. Perhaps Mr. Flahive will comment on this matter. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and his officials have been actively involved in putting together and enacting the legislation. As I understand it, the legislation is already on the Statute Book, but it has not been enacted. The Minister and his officials are putting together a regime that will give the Garda Commissioner the authority to issue guidelines and ensure consistency. Newspapers throughout the country have reported on the many cases which have been taken against individual superintendents, and the strong objections which have been made by the superintendents in such cases. I am striving for consistency within that regime throughout the country. It is an issue for us all.

Absolutely.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

On the one hand, we have to license Glock pistols, but on the other hand, we are seizing Glock pistols from criminals who are using them to kill people around the country. This issue is being addressed as a matter of urgency. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has spoken to me about it on many occasions. Along with his departmental officials, he is working hard in this respect.

It is a pretty horrific situation, especially in light of the present circumstances in which guns are being stolen and used for dreadful and heinous crimes. In light of court decisions, is primary or secondary legislation, such as regulation, needed to give the Garda the powers it needs?

The Deputy is getting into policy areas.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I am not in a position to comment on future legislation.

I am not trying to embarrass the Garda Commissioner in any way. I am merely trying to get the message out there. If something can be done by means of legislation, then that legislation has to be provided.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

As the Garda Commissioner, I am focused on that issue. The Minister, who is not present, is also focused on it. We have discussed it at length. There is an issue with the licensing of firearms. There have been some heartening signs from the courts. I do not want to go into the recent decision made by Mr. Justice Charlton, because High Court decisions can be and have been appealed to the Supreme Court. These matters are still before the courts. There have been some heartening signs from the courts of a change in attitude with respect to the licensing of deadly weapons.

I will leave it in the Garda Commissioner's hands.

When the Commissioner said he would give a licence to Deputy Jim O'Keeffe, I hope he meant to say he would give the same facility to Deputy Sheehan. That is the biggest concern I have.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I would have no problem with giving a licence to the Chairman.

Now that my name has been mentioned, perhaps I should mention that I may be the only member present with some experience in this regard. Some years ago, I took over the office of the late Jasper Travers Wolfe, who was the crown solicitor during the Troubles of the 1920s. When I searched his desk, which I occupied for a number of years, I found a .38 Smith & Wesson revolver in it. I went up to the local sergeant and asked him what in the name of God I should do with it. This happened a long time ago — at the height of the Troubles of more recent years. I handed it in. I have a record of it. The only gun I have ever had was one I briefly acquired by chance from Jasper Travers Wolfe.

I assume that the main concern of the Garda relates to unlicensed guns. What is the ratio of the use of unlicensed guns in crimes to the use of licensed guns, which have been stolen, in crimes?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I do not have that ratio. In 2007, the Garda seized approximately 860 firearms.

Were the firearms illegally held?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Yes. Seventy of the firearms were seized in the Limerick division alone. In 2006, we seized 80 illegally held firearms in the Limerick division. The rate of seizure to date this year is running roughly parallel to the figure for 2007. I do not have the exact figure. Firearms represent a big issue for the Garda as it enforces the law in this jurisdiction. I established the organised crime unit on a permanent footing earlier this year to deal with the firearms issues that threaten our society.

I will move on to the more mundane issue of traffic fines. In 2006, the outturn was €15.2 million. The estimate for traffic fines in 2007 was €17.5 million, but the Garda ended up with a windfall outturn of €27.5 million. How did the receipts from traffic fines increase so dramatically? What factors led to such a dramatic increase in the receipt figures to which I refer?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I take it that receipts are in line with the level of enforcement. As the Chairman knows, there has been a substantial increase in the strength of the Garda traffic corps since 2005, when the decision to increase it was made. It is obvious that there is a link between increased enforcement and increased receipts.

I will give my impression of the matter, for what it is worth. Citizens seem to think that the level of surveillance on major roads, on which the risk of accidents is not high, has increased. By contrast, they believe there is a total absence of surveillance on secondary roads, where many accidents occur. The impression among the public is that Garda activity in this area serves, at times, as a revenue-generating exercise. Patrols tend to be located just inside or outside the point at which speed limits increase or decrease. The effective work that needs to be done to prevent serious road accidents on secondary roads and country roads is not being done. It has been suggested that gardaí are being asked to meet certain targets as part of a revenue-generating exercise.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I do not like to disagree with the Chairman but I do not accept that. It is not the first time I have answered this question around this table. I do not have the figures cited by the Chairman to hand. The significant point I always make at the Joint Committee on Transport is that just 2% of detections for speeding are made on the roads — the main highways — to which the Chairman refers. If one examines the Garda website, one will see that we have flagged up, for everyone to see, a list of 700 blackspots or hotspots, whatever one wants to call them, which the force considers to be the most dangerous parts of this country's road network. We will monitor and review that as time goes by, naturally enough. We are saying to the public that these are the locations where the problems are and where one can expect to be detected if one speeds.

Speeding, like drink driving, is a major problem and the Garda is increasing enforcement in this respect. From my perspective, I do not use the detection of speeding offences as a revenue gathering exercise but to ensure fewer collisions and deaths occur on the roads and people comply with the legislation. I am glad to note that 35 fewer people have been killed so far this year than at this time last year. Last year 27 fewer people were killed on the roads than in the previous year. In real terms, this means 62 people, whoever they may be, are alive today who would not be if the trend in 2006 had continued.

It is not my policy or intention to have members engaged in a revenue gathering exercise, far from it. As far as I am concerned, they are engaged in enforcement with a view to reducing the number of deaths on the roads, preventing speeding and drink driving and ensuring people wear safety belts. In this regard, I am not making a political statement but stating where we are coming from.

A few years ago my predecessor appointed an assistant commissioner in charge of the traffic corps to emphasise that the enforcement and management of traffic was one of the Garda's six core objectives. While it is a huge commitment for me to put gardaí on the roads in such numbers, given the many demands in other areas, I consider the safety of the people on the roads of Ireland to be paramount.

I welcome the Commissioner and the other witnesses and thank the Commissioner for his presentation. I will discuss Garda performance in a number of other areas.

In his introductory remarks the Commissioner referred to murder rates. I have specific questions about gun murders and figures provided in the Dáil recently which showed there had been 157 gun murders in the past ten years. During this period proceedings were commenced in 52 cases and the number of convictions secured was 21. By any standard, this can only be described as a very poor performance. Even allowing for a three-year delay in processing cases and bringing them to court and the time taken to hear the cases and reach an outcome, one would expect the 51 murders which took place between 2003 and 2005 to have been dealt with in the past three years. However, the figures for convictions for the past three years show that in 2006, 2007 and 2008 no convictions were secured for gun murders. What are the main reasons for poor performance in this area? What are the principal obstacles preventing the Garda from securing a higher level of conviction?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

My figures suggest there were two convictions in 2006.

I am quoting the Official Report of the Dáil of 2 October. The figures provided were for the year to 30 September but perhaps there was something in October.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

My figures are from the PULSE system.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

There are difficulties in certain parts of Ireland where people are prepared to use firearms and shoot each other. The motives generally are connected to drugs, a major issue. In some parts of Ireland people who use firearms are motivated by hatred, revenge and a sense of getting even. I have no doubt that the value placed on life among a certain section of the community is less than it used to be. I would not go behind the door in saying we do not have difficulties in trying to seek convictions in relation to gun crime. There have been a number of cases in which it has been very hard to get evidence to bring them across the line in the courts.

One of the areas I am referring to is Limerick, which I visited on Tuesday. When I speak about Limerick this week, I have to again mention Shane Geoghegan and offer my sympathies to the family and friends of that young man. In Limerick, for instance, the return is good in terms of prosecutions, whereas it is not as good in other parts of Ireland. It is a question of getting the evidence. The legislation, for the most part, is in place. I am looking forward to the surveillance legislation progressing through the Dáil because it would give us an extra tool in ensuring the evidence we get from surveillance is admitted in court. Drugs, hatred, violence and a sense of revenge are all factors in the reason such crimes are being committed.

I accept that those are the principal factors but my question was related to the obstacles preventing the Garda from securing a better level of convictions.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

The Garda function is to investigate crimes, obtain evidence that will be admitted in court and put it before the Director of Public Prosecutions. In many of these cases it has not been possible to obtain that level of evidence. Intimidation, fear of giving evidence and many other issues of that nature are built in to that obstacle. However, I am glad to note that in a recent case in which there was a considerable level of intimidation and some 11 witnesses would not give evidence of the statements they had made originally a conviction was secured in the courts and the accused person received a heavy sentence. This is one of the obstacles facing us. We have to work within the rule of law to obtain evidence and put it before the courts.

What needs to be done to assist the Garda in obtaining evidence?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

On Tuesday I made an appeal for information and people to come forward. There are cases in which people have information and would be in a position to give evidence but, through fear or otherwise, are not prepared to do so. We need to work with the public. In Limerick, Finglas and other places we are working very hard on community policing, an important aspect of how we engage with the public. However, we need people to come forward. Where they can give information and evidence, we will do everything in our power to support them within the support service, so to speak, available to me.

I have heard a great deal of discussion that witness protection and security should be placed on a statutory footing. The reality about witness security is that it is a cultural issue to get someone to leave the area in which they have lived for 30 or 40 years and move to some other jurisdiction for the rest of his or her life. Whether the witness security programme is statutory or ad hoc, as is the case, it will have no bearing on the response of such persons to a request to enter the programme. I have ample funds to provide that level of security and support for witnesses. We have utilised the programme but, as the Deputy will appreciate, I am not in a position to give details because the programme is, by its nature, absolutely confidential. I urge anyone who has information and is in a position to assist to come forward and provide us with the information we need.

A plethora of laws has been introduced in recent years and most of the provisions the Garda Síochána sought are in place. I look forward to a DNA database in time and to the introduction of the surveillance legislation the Minister and his officials are pushing through the Dáil. At the end of the day it is a question of getting admissible evidence to put before the courts.

In that regard, many of us who represent areas with high levels of crime would be very slow to encourage people to come forward to give evidence.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I very much appreciate that.

That is the reality. It may be people's civic duty to give evidence, and our civic duty to encourage them, but with my hand on my heart, I find it very difficult to encourage people to come forward with evidence because of concerns for their safety and that of their families.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I very much appreciate that. I said that when I was in Limerick. I accept that is the case, but we must work together. The Garda Síochána comes from the community that we police and we must all work together to tackle what is, for the most part, a small core of people who are reckless, and often coked up to their heads when they commit crimes. We have to work together to ensure we can bring them to justice.

Unfortunately, we are also well aware of people who have put their heads above the parapet, even in a minor way by getting involved in the local community through residents' associations, who have been targeted and the forces of the State have not been in a position to protect them.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I appreciate that has happened but I do not think we can be defeatist.

We should not be defeatist but that is why I am asking the Commissioner what is required. It is not sufficient to say more people should come forward to give evidence because that is unlikely to happen to any great extent.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

What I am saying is that we cannot be defeatist and all of us must assure those communities. We will play our part. There may well be individual instances where a sufficient level of service was not offered but that has not been my experience and does not conform with my directions to the force and to my senior management.

Limerick has been highlighted. A regeneration programme is ongoing there in which the Garda Síochána is playing a lead role. Anybody down there can testify to that. I have increased the number of Garda members in Limerick in the past 18 months by 94. The total number of gardaí in Limerick is 625. A total of 80 gardaí was allocated to the troubled areas in the city. I do not wish to give away any operational details but, in addition, other units such as the ERU is in place. Searches took place this morning, and approximately 30 searches were carried out throughout the country regarding investigations. We will knock in doors and pull people out where that is appropriate within the rule of law. At the end of the day when my people go to court they must have evidence in accordance with the direction of the DPP. The Garda Síochána will not be found wanting. We will play our part.

I recall in 1996 when there was a high profile shooting I was asked to be the first chief bureau officer of the Criminal Assets Bureau. We put our shoulders to the wheel and did what was required. The Garda Síochána is doing its job, day in and day out. Members will be aware of recent seizures of guns and drugs in large quantities. One seizure was in the north city. Another recent prosecution related to the procurement of a substantial number of guns for Limerick. Thanks to an undercover operation, the Garda Síochána, working with the serious organised crime agency in the United Kingdom, successfully got the intelligence, carried out a covert operation and brought people before the court who have now been sentenced.

The response to crime must be a collective one for us all. I am not trying to pass the buck but we must get people to come forward and reassure them. Community leaders must be encouraged to reassure people also. We will play our part. Members should not forget we played our part in Limerick in terms of the full-time protection of a member of the public who was seriously injured. That resulted in the high-profile conviction of five individuals. Someone is being protected currently on the north side of Dublin. I will not give the details. Eight gardaí per day are involved in that case. We do that work wherever possible within the constraints of the money available to us.

We are paying the price now for the neglect of many areas in this country, not just by the Garda but by many other agencies also. I do not point the finger directly at the Garda. The situation was allowed to fester for a very long time and because of the numbers involved there is not the capacity to provide protection to all of those who require it.

What precisely is involved in terms of a witness identifying a culprit? Does it entail a face to face meeting between a witness and a culprit? Surely provisions could be made to avoid that happening.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Is the Deputy referring to identification?

Yes, identification parades.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

A working party is engaged to see what new systems we can devise.

Does it entail people coming face to face with criminals currently?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It can on occasion. However, there are many technological aids that can be utilised and we are working towards that. I read something on the matter recently.

We all know from watching television and films about two-way mirrors whereby a witness can look at an identify parade to pick out a culprit without being visible. Is that not possible here?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Most of the television programmes I have seen finished at the arrest stage. The cases never went to court.

Is that not possible here?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Is what not possible?

For a witness to identify somebody through a two-way mirror.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

We must go by the standard of proof that is required in the courts.

Is the Commissioner saying it is not possible? Is it possible in other jurisdictions?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

My people are looking at technologies that are being used in other jurisdictions currently and there may well be need for a change in legislation to support it.

That is precisely the type of thing I am asking about. That is clearly an obstacle to the Garda securing convictions. I am asking the Commissioner to tell us what are the obstacles and what is preventing the Garda from solving more murders.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I have told the Deputy that getting evidence is not solely based on an identification parade.

No, but that is one aspect.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Very little weight is accorded by the courts to visual identification. That is a reality. The Garda Síochána would not seek to go down just one plank, so to speak. We try to get evidence wherever that is possible. There is a whole raft of issues on which the public can be of assistance where we could get that kind of corroborative evidence on, for example, where weapons might be hidden. People see things when they are moving. It is not just a question of putting a hand on a person's shoulder.

I did not say it was just down to that but I asked the Commissioner about that specifically.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I have answered the Deputy.

I thank the Commissioner. I wish to move on to deal with the witness protection programme. What are the reasons for the delay in putting the witness protection programme on a statutory footing and what are the main advantages of that from the Garda's perspective?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

None. I have explained that already. This is a cultural issue. There is no advantage to putting the programme on a statutory footing, as opposed to the current ad hoc administrative system. At the end of the day we must get a person to give us significant evidence that will lead to a conviction in court. Ultimately, there must be evidence that they are prepared to enter a programme, which means they have to leave a place they may have lived in for 40 or 50 years and go to some other location for the rest of their lives, with the financial support that entails. I might be wrong but see no advantage in putting this on a statutory footing. I have the finances and resources to include people in the witness security programme. The difficulty is to get people to come forward and do what I have described. “None” is the answer to the Deputy’s question but I might be wrong.

The Commissioner referred in passing to gardaí on the beat being able to call the unit in Castlebar on their mobile telephones. The unit can take the details over the phone, thus saving the gardaí from having to return to the Garda station to type up their reports. What happens where there is no mobile phone reception? I lose reception while driving many national primary routes.

What other communications are there between gardaí working together, aside from mobile phones? Do they have their own radio control system? Does every garda on the beat have a radio or is there just one available for each car? Gardaí might feel isolated if they have not got a proper method of communicating with their colleagues at the other end of the street or town?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

We have all experienced some difficulty with mobile phone reception. Usually we have been able to move on to some place with a reception. The issue for us is really the larger issue of telecommunications systems and support services. As the Deputy is aware, the contract has been signed for the national digital radio system. A substantial sum has been ring-fenced by me in the budget this year to service the 2009 element of this project. The Tetra system will enhance our communications.

The issue I was explaining was that, to keep gardaí on the street, we provided them with mobile phones so they would not all return to the station and wait for one computer on to which to input their information. It is a question of ringing in the information. The people in Castlebar, who are all civilian employees, put the information on the system and thus keep the gardaí on the beat.

I am very happy with how civilianisation is working. Will the new communications contract that was signed mean each garda on the beat will have a unit with which to contact colleagues? It has been said to me on occasion that individual gardaí can become isolated? How long will it be before each garda can contact a colleague at the other end of a street or the far end of a town if he becomes separated in the course of his work?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

We have a time frame for delivery in that regard. It is intended to purchase at least 17,000 units so each member of the force will have one.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Not in 2009. The roll-out will begin in March 2009 and last until April 2010. We have a schedule and time frame.

It is approximately a year, which is good.

Will there be extra capacity in Templemore if the numbers change? What does the Commissioner hope to do in that respect? There is a big building programme in Templemore.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Given the acceleration in recruitment, from an intake of approximately 500 per year to approximately 1,100 per year, we had to put up a new building. We had to conduct some training in a hotel in Nenagh. This will not happen next year as we will do all the training in the college. One should bear in mind that there will be a throughput of 275 per quarter for the next nine months.

Much of what the Commissioner says concerns community support and people coming forward. The joint policing committees in the local authority areas can help in this respect because local representatives are involved. From the Commissioner's perspective, how many committees are in operation? There were pilot schemes in several counties. Most local authorities are in the process of establishing committees. While the committees will prove to be a good idea, I am worried about duplication. Some divisions had to be realigned with local authority boundaries to avoid duplication but there will probably still be duplication in counties with an urban policing committee and a county policing committee. I am worried the Garda will be tied up unnecessarily by having to make the same points to two different policing committees.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I have a few points on that. There were 29 pilot areas. As the Deputy knows, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, announced the extension of the joint policing committees to all 114 local authority areas. While the primary responsibility for rolling them out rests with the local authorities, I very much support the committees. The pilot schemes have worked very well. It is important for the Garda to work closely with the local authorities and the other stakeholders.

I would not like the committee proceedings simply to involve an examination of the Garda every time. I would like there to be co-ordinated, collective initiative. This will be the case. The committees will be rolled out over the coming months. The pilot scheme worked very well.

The Commissioner is happy with the pilot programmes.

On the chapter in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the deployment of the Garda vehicles, I always feel there are two sides to every story. The Comptroller and Auditor General states there was unnecessary expenditure in 2006 on vehicles that lay idle during 2007. On the other hand, if the Government had not spent the money at the end of 2006, it would have returned to the Department of Finance, by and large. It would have serviced the national debt and would have resulted in a saving of 3%. However, we got the cars that came into operation in 2007 at 2006 prices. Will the Comptroller and Auditor General state how much the prices would have increased between 2006 and 2007?

On the question of there being a saving or cost, one might reasonably argue there was a saving to the Exchequer in obtaining equipment at 2006 prices. The cars were purchased in advance, insured and stored and not registered until 2007. I did not see in the report the savings that would have accrued as a consequence. What are the details on this? They would be very relevant to the point we are making today?

The report claims the Garda states one would want to engage with the Government Supplies Agency to obtain a sliding scale of discounts. Apparently not being able to obtain a further discount was outside the Garda's control and was a matter for the Government Supplies Agency. It is the first time I have heard such a stark reference to the agency. I do not know who works for it, where it is based or its brief. We need to invite it before the committee very soon if it is responsible for a great deal of procurement.

We need to speak to the agency because everything we talk about concerns procurement. If its representatives signed the contracts for the Garda equipment, I would like to hear their side of the story.

Mr. John Buckley

The Government Supplies Agency operates a draw down contract and it covers more than the Garda Síochána. The contract in question, under which the vehicles were provided, would run until June 2007. Even if the procurement had been deferred until early 2007, it would have still have been at the same prices. The indicative size of the contract put out to the market was €8.5 million. In fact, €36.3 million worth of goods was made available under it. That gave rise to the concern that a discount could have been offered. However, the Commissioner has dealt with that matter.

The short answer to the Deputy's question is that I cannot see that there would have been any savings since it would have been covered by the same draw-down contract at the same level of indicative prices.

There would have been an increase between June 2007 prices and December 2007 prices.

Mr. John Buckley

I agree that if it had moved into the second half of the year——

Would prices have gone up?

Mr. John Buckley

I cannot guarantee that they would have but it would have been likely.

Does Mr. Buckley have the figures? I consider this to be a relevant point. Can the committee write to the Government Supplies Agency as a result of this meeting asking for details of its contract?

We will do so.

There might be another side to buying early in the year.

Depreciation is a factor. It was established that some of the cars were not put into use until June 2008.

They got them at the 2006 prices. I am putting the other side of the story which did not emerge today.

Under the heading of income received, €60,833 is allocated for the percentage charged to insurance companies for collecting insurance premia. What is this arrangement and what is the level of commission? Why is the Garda collecting insurance premia for insurance companies?

Many buy their car insurance over the telephone, propose to pay in instalments, receive the insurance disc but, in fact, only pay for one month. Many companies cancel the policies but the person still has the insurance disc. The arrangement is for the company to notify the Garda. As this must be a large list, what mechanism is in place for the Garda to follow up on these cancelled policies?

Mr. Michael Culhane

The sum of €60,833 in the appropriation accounts represents the commission received by the Garda for collecting premia, through deductions in the payroll system, on life insurance policies taken out by individual Garda staff.

It has nothing to do with collecting premia from members of the public.

Mr. Michael Culhane

Yes. It is the arrangement in place to collect insurance premia on behalf of insurance companies on policies Garda staff have taken out.

What is the arrangement in place in respect of cancelled car insurance policies? I imagine the numbers are vast.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

There have been discussions with the Irish Insurance Federation. It has undertaken to provide a database indicating instances where car insurance coverage has ceased. We are aware of people acquiring motor insurance cover by instalment, paying the first instalment and then cancelling it. Assistant Commissioner Eddie Rock of the Garda traffic corps has been discussing the issue directly with the Irish Insurance Federation to obtain the data.

A contract will shortly be signed for an automated vehicle number plate recognition system which will be deployed in 104 Garda vehicles. Once the Irish Insurance Federation gives us the database, the facility will be in place to detect non-insured cars. It will also assist in identifying suspect cars or those which are not taxed. Those with responsibility for the security of gated underground car parks are often bribed to store cars that are stolen in, say, May to be used in criminal operations in October. The number plate recognition system will also assist in combating this.

The Garda does a good job in very difficult circumstances.

What is the number of working days lost through absenteeism? What were the trends in 2006 and 2007? Does it impact on the overtime budget?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I regret I do not have the figures with me but will send them to the Deputy. From previous experience, the level of absenteeism in an Garda Síochána is on a par with that in the general public sector. It does impact on the allocation of resources. In a force of this size, there are personnel on long-term and short-term sick leave. We have embarked on a new occupational health strategy working with our chief medical officer and the chief administrative officer.

Is the cost of policing of events such as concerts and matches increasing? What levels of deployment are needed for various events? Does it erode the overtime budget?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

The total amount recovered for providing Garda services at events — bearing in mind it is now covered by the Garda Síochána Act 2005 as fees — was €3.954 million in 2006, €2.199 million in 2007 and €4.461 million to date in 2008. Why was the amount down substantially in 2007 as against 2006? Clearly, the substantial amount of money that we got from the organisers of the Ryder Cup, one of the biggest sporting events seen in this country in 2006, is the reason for the reduction. As may be seen, in 2008 we are pushing out the boat further in this regard, where appropriate, and endeavouring to get paid for the services we have to provide.

What is the level the Commissioner is talking about and can he give the committee an overview as to how it is approached? Perhaps he can give us an example. Does the Garda Síochána seek 100% recoupment, or what is the level?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

The Deputy is asking a very good question because I am endeavouring to achieve consistency among all the promoters throughout the country. At the moment each divisional officer is a project manager, so to speak, and engages with the promoter to agree a figure. The director of finance here is chairing a committee or working party to try to come up with a set of guidelines that will ensure consistency throughout the country.

Is it fair to say that at the moment it is below cost?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It is fair to say that we never recover the full cost. I must insert a caveat there because there are many social issues involved in all this.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

In many cases it is difficult to define where the public duty ends and the non-public liability starts. I would like to see it tied down in a formally structured manner so that I can ensure a consistency of approach throughout the country, bearing in mind the number of divisions and districts involved. We are working towards that objective.

We are probably in an era of increased public demonstrations and rallies in respect of various events. I have a general observation to make about a particular event I attended, which was a demonstration. The events master of ceremonies quoted the senior garda on site as stating that the number of demonstrators was 10,000. A cursory observation would have shown that was very wide of the mark. That was subsequently queried with the Garda press office, which formally issued a statement to the effect that the number was 4,000, significantly less than 10,000. However, the message had already gone out, with the backing of the local gardaí, that it was 10,000, which clearly was not the case. Perhaps that is something the Commissioner might look at as part of his structures and he may care to disseminate his views down the line. That is just an observation.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It is an observation as well that it would not be the first time the Garda Síochána was quoted incorrectly or blamed for something in that regard. However, the whole issue for us is to maintain public order. There are times when we have to facilitate peaceful protest. At the same time we must facilitate people going about their business. However, I take the Deputy's point. There are many cases where a Garda spokesman is not my authorised director of communications. That happens from time to time. I am sure it is built into the system and I accept it.

I welcome the Commissioner and his officials. I commend him and the Garda Síochána on the work of the Garda forums. I am a member of two at local level and they are working very well. Informally, members of the Garda Síochána did that type of work. However, it is good to have all the stakeholders together, particularly at Hallowe'en. The number of gardaí available at some very difficult fire scenes was impressive. The question of Hallowe'en is interesting because the new legislation was in place over the past year or two and the run-in seemed to be much quieter. Does the Commissioner believe this was because we provided him with the essential legislation that enabled gardaí to supervise in a better way that festival, as one might call it, which had caused distress in many urban areas?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I believe so and I thank the Deputy for his remarks. The fireworks issue is usually a big event. We have consistently engaged over a number of years in what we call Operation Tombola, where we endeavour to seize fireworks, some of which are imported into the State for this purpose. I believe there was a marked reduction this year — that is the perception of our people on the ground. Certainly, our focus was on the prevention of public disorder during Hallowe'en. Notwithstanding that, some of our members were injured and I regret that one female garda in Tipperary received an eye injury, although she is recovering well. I suppose these are the hazards of the job.

On that point, on subhead B, Vote 20, in relation to the equipment of the Garda Síochána, has every single garda, for example, got an anti-stab vest?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Yes.

They are completely equipped. My colleague asked the Commissioner about communications. Until very recently it was possible only to e-mail the superintendents in various Garda stations. If one wants to contact the community garda, is it possible now to e-mail an ordinary member of the force or will he or she have access to this technology? Previously ordinary gardaí did not have access to e-mail. Until very recently I was communications spokesman for the Labour Party.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I will ask the chief administrative officer to deal with that.

Mr. John Leamy

We are reviewing the use of e-mail within the organisation. We have two large pilot studies, in particular, on the use of e-mail, which are ongoing, and they are to be reviewed in the first quarter of 2009. One of the issues we must address during the course of next year is the expansion and development of our underground network, to allow the entire membership of the force to avail of electronic communication. We want, also, to develop a protocol in relation to the use of e-mail to provide for circumstances in which it may justifiably be used and to ensure there is follow up to e-mail communications. We are taking our time to ensure we address all these issues with a view to rolling out access to e-mail generally later in 2009 and into 2010.

Does Mr. Leamy agree it is an extraordinary anomaly, given that politicians are inundated with e-mails 24/7, particularly in recent weeks with the various groups that are upset over the budget and so on, that we cannot e-mail a station sergeant, duty officer or community garda?

Mr. John Leamy

I accept the Deputy's point and we are endeavouring to ensure that e-mails will be used in appropriate circumstances. The mailboxes will be manned so that when the e-mails arrive they receive appropriate attention. There are 600 members involved in the pilot area studies. We have made those types of facilities available to them so that sergeants, gardaí and superintendents have access to mailboxes, making e-mail addresses available to the public which they serve. We will see the position from that the degree of interaction flowing between the members and the public, ensuring we are providing the right service as we roll out e-mail as a facility across the country.

I have a brief point to make on the question my colleague, Deputy Shortall, asked about the outrageous gun murders and the fact that it is so difficult to get convictions. At the edge of my constituency, there were six such killings the year before last over a three month period as well as an appalling assassination about two months ago. A young man, with a baby's bottle in his hand, in the middle of the afternoon, on his way to pick up children from school, was cut down in cold blood. Does the Commissioner believe, as the former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Michael McDowell, did, that this type of savage gangland crime, which impinges greatly on certain communities, such as those in Limerick and ours on the northside of Dublin, is a threat to the State?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It is a serious social issue and has been for some time. Bear in mind that in the mid-1990s we had difficulties in this regard and a good many shootings, culminating, one might say, with the shooting of Ms Veronica Guerin. It is a serious issue and a major challenge for us in the Garda Síochána.

Sometimes the public believes it is analogous to the situation in the early 1970s to the late 1980s, perhaps, where there was armed conspiracy — that was seen as a threat to the actual functioning and even the existence of the State — which we combated with various strong measures. The impact on certain deprived areas would be similar to that, as a direct threat to the institutions of the society.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

There is no doubt that it is a very serious issue, but there are differences to what was going on in the early 1970s, such as where the threat was coming from and the organised nature of the organisations that were proscribed at the time. The gangs involved in the current threat are very fluid in their make up. They flit from one gang to another. Their motives are related to the drug business. The drug issue is a major one for us, which is why I have focused so much on it. If a car was broken into in Sackville Place today, or if there was a mugging on Grafton Street, invariably such crimes are attached to the illicit drug trade. In 1996, we carried out an examination of the crimes and the motives for these crimes, and we found that 62% of indictable crimes were related to drugs in some way. Therefore, the issue of drugs is a core issue.

We are making substantial inroads on the supply side for drugs. We are seizing drugs up and down the country day in day out. I have a central Garda national drug unit for dealing with that, and I have a drug unit in every division in the country. I see it as a major problem. People have spoken in recent days about warning individuals who do a line of cocaine that they are putting money into the coffers of gangsters who deal in drugs. Such gangsters have no concern about shooting someone who owes them €4000 to €5,000. However, it is not an insurmountable threat. We have increased the strength of the force to deal with this. We get people into the communities and we are seen to prevent gangsters going about their nefarious work. There is also a firm side to our policing, as evidenced by the 20 to 30 searches done this morning, when some doors were knocked in to deal with the people engaged in this type of criminality.

I want us to be calm in this situation. I want to go about what the force does best, which is policing. We can be very emotive about these things, and we have had periods like this in our history, but we must to ensure that the actions we take are appropriate.

Is the force on target to have the full complement in the traffic corps? Under the road safety strategy, we are now in the fourth quarter, so we should have 1,200 personnel available for traffic duties. There have been questions raised in the media about the Gatsocameras, and whether they are effective in certain conditions. We still do not seem to have got anywhere with the speed camera roll-out. Do the Commissioner’s members have the equipment that they need to do the job that must be done? Reducing fatalities to zero must be our objective.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

We are working towards our target of 1,200 personnel for the traffic corps. It is up around 1,000 at the moment, and there are interviews currently taking place with a view to putting more people into it. I hope we can achieve that target or come very close to it. The Deputy jumped from gangland crime and drug trafficking to road traffic enforcement, so there is a considerable strain on the allocation of resources. We are working towards that target.

I read in the newspapers that the speed cameras do not work in the rain, but I have been assured that is not the position. Together with the Minister, I launched eight new vans with technology like that in Gatso, but Gatso is no longer providing technical support for us, as another company is doing so. These eight new vans are designed to detect speeding, and one of the core aspects of the technology is that it has night-time capability. To the best of my knowledge, rain does not affect it.

There has been a bit of a hold up on the tender process, as the preferred bidder was identified but one of the unsuccessful bidders raised issues and legal advice has been sought. I understand the legal advice is to hand, but I cannot talk about it until the responses are given to those parties who raised issues. There is €10 million ring fenced in my budget for 2009 to develop the speed camera initiative, so we are moving upwards and onwards with that.

Does that mean the full scheme will not be implemented and will be delayed for about one year, as reported?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

The tender process is in place at the moment.

I know that, but will the implementation of the full scheme on the roads be delayed for more than a year as a result?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It will take some time, but I cannot say to the Chairman precisely when the final roll out will occur. The original amount envisaged came to more than €10 million, so I will have to work within that budget.

Who dealt with the procurement?

Mr. John Leamy

The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the director of finance dealt with it. It depends on the depth of the challenge and the issues arising from the legal advice we recently received.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

We must consider that advice and act appropriately.

The Garda Síochána did some wonderful work in the detection of drugs coming into west Cork. From reading the newspapers, it looks like the peninsulas and coves of west Cork are the ideal area for criminals to bring in drugs. Has the Commissioner any plans to police it in a more intensive way, with more manpower, to safeguard Ireland from becoming an international drug-trafficking area?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

The Deputy will appreciate that as there are people before the court, I cannot talk in detail about the recent seizure.

I am talking about the future. What will happen from now on?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Sometimes the past informs us for the future. Intelligence-led policing is a much touted subject, but it is a very important area when dealing with drug trafficking into Ireland. Drugs come into Ireland through many routes. We had two major events in west Cork.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

We recently got involved in the maritime analysis centre in Lisbon. I have a liaison officer there, as do Customs and Excise. We are working with our colleagues from the US and other European countries to monitor sea traffic. Our colleagues in the Naval Service play a big role in that. They were very successful in what they did in difficult circumstances recently. Intelligence is a key aspect in all this. I cannot put a garda in every inlet in west Cork, and even if I did, I doubt if he or she would be effective in achieving what needs to be done. The most recent seizure has been significant, following work with our European colleagues. Drugs come into Ireland through many routes other than west Cork, such as our ports, where they come from the sea through the Balkan route. The seizures that we have made, especially through our road transport facilities, have been significant and represent an indication of where the routes are.

Many questions have been asked today on the traffic corps. The brightest and best of the commissioner's staff are usually in the traffic corps, which leaves him with people who have less capacity to deal in other areas of crime. When I look at the young people in the traffic corps, I see they are bright and intelligent. Are 25% of staff in the traffic corps?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Yes.

How does the organisation screen those members going into the traffic corps? They have no experience on the streets, where crime is rampant because of the world in which we live. For traffic management and dealing with speeding or drunk drivers the brightest people are not needed, whereas it is always difficult to detect people committing crime on the street, where bright and intelligent people are needed.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

There is a challenge in getting the blend. Assistant Commissioner Rock, who is in charge of the traffic area, and I try to get a blend of experience in the traffic corps. We also operate a rotation policy. Just because one goes into the traffic corps does not mean one will be there forever. My people need to get experience in several facets of policing so a rotation policy is in place.

Does the Commissioner have a breakdown of the different nationalities of people who are convicted of traffic offences?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

No.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I am not sure. The Deputy will appreciate that our records treat everybody equally. I do not have figures readily to hand. I will check that for the Deputy but I am not sure in this regard because——

A lot has been said today——

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

While we all might have views in regard to non-compliance cultures and so on, we treat all our residents equally.

I understand. How many cars does the traffic corps have?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

We should have those figures. If we move on, I will get them for the Deputy.

I will ask some questions before I call Deputy Shortall. There was an underspend of €2.7 million in 2007 with regard to the CCTV town centre scheme. The Commissioner said that was due to extending the implementation time for the scheme. What did he mean by that? Are there difficulties? I saw this as a key element in dealing with inner city crime in particular. What was the delay, as I would interpret it, in the implementation of the scheme?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

While I will ask Mr. Culhane to deal with that, I see CCTV as a very important tool in our armoury.

Mr. Michael Culhane

Eleven schemes were authorised in 2007. The delay arose primarily from getting planning permissions, way leaves and so on, but those 11 schemes will be completed in the near future, although some will roll over from 2008 into 2009.

Is the problem with CCTV the issue of monitoring? Deputies on the ground have an ongoing and major problem with the monitoring of publicly funded CCTV schemes.

It is a valid question.

There is no funding for monitoring.

Is there a problem with monitoring of the cameras?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Not that I am aware of.

Many applications are shot down because the local community cannot provide permanent staff 24/7 to monitor the cameras. If one is lucky enough, such as at two sites in Coolock and Darndale in my constituency, to have local projects that specifically do this, it is fine, but if one is not lucky, it does not happen and cannot happen because we do not have the resources, apparently.

Mr. Michael Flahive

To address Deputy Broughan's point, my understanding is that where community CCTV schemes are grant-aided, the question of monitoring those schemes is a matter for the local community and the local authority. The question is not one for the Garda Síochána under the scheme as it applies.

We are all aware of that. Despite the promise of CCTV, it has been much less effective than we thought it would be. We seem to differ from other jurisdictions, for example, the UK, which pioneered CCTV — some would say too much so in that everybody is on CCTV practically all the time. There is no coherence between the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and there do not seem to be structures whereby we would have the kind of monitoring service we need. Many groups have failed to get past the training stage.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Deputy Edward O'Keeffe asked the total number of vehicles. At the end of 2007, 264 vehicles were allocated to traffic, although that number has probably increased at this stage.

Out of what total?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Out of a total of approximately 2,600.

Does every Garda station with a personnel presence have a car?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

No.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I do not see a need for every Garda station to have one because there are other arrangements. The inspectorate has been making recommendations to me to increase the number of vehicles in rural areas and for one-person stations in particular. That is why I said earlier that what happened in 2006 has assisted me in this regard. However, I cannot just give a car to every garda. We must prioritise and ensure we are making best use of resources. It is certainly a matter that is under review and there are arrangements in every district.

I do not fully support the American view that every patrol officer should be going around in a car. My people should be out on the beat and visible, getting information and talking to the community, as distinct from all officers being sent out in a vehicle.

I accept the point. How is the Garda bicycle unit progressing? I note there is a pilot project in my area.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

We have allocated in the region of 500 mountain bikes to gardaí throughout the country. Up to 1,200 gardaí are trained in the use of mountain bikes and 500 have been allocated.

Will they be available for detection and policing at night?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Yes.

It is wonderful that we will in future be able to detect those who have uninsured cars. Driving around in an uninsured car is murder and suicide. There should be a national policy rather than a selective system.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I agree.

Wherever the capital comes from, I encourage the Commissioner to move on this. It is an awful state of affairs and the results can be terrible.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I agree.

Well done on that.

My second question relates to Garda breaches of citizens' rights, which cost €3 million. There were 13 settlements totalling €460,000 and one court award of €12,500. The Dáil record refers to a settlement of €1.5 million which was given under the heading "Other". Deputy Pat Rabbitte raised the issue in the Dáil recently and said it should be referred to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Can the Commissioner or the Department throw light on that settlement of €1.5 million?

Mr. Michael Flahive

I cannot do so at present but I will certainly check that for the Chairman and give him the information very promptly.

It is more about the categorisation of this rather than anything else. Mr. Flahive might identify the settlement.

Gardaí on mountain bikes have operated in my constituency for a number of years. They have been extremely successful and were a great development within the force in terms of community policing.

I wish to pick up on some of the points to which the Commissioner referred. The first concerns firearms seizures and the fact that a large proportion of these are licensed guns that have been stolen. What are the legal obligations on a person who has a licensed firearm in terms of its storage? Has action been taken against anyone who failed to meet his or her obligations in that regard and who left such a firearm casually lying around to be stolen?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Yes. In many cases, superintendents have gone before the courts to revoke licences when adequate precautions clearly have not been taken. I read an incidents report every morning when I come to work and at times am appalled to read of cases in which four or five shotguns have been stolen from houses. People drive around to ascertain whether a gun dog is running around in front of a house and if so, they can assume there are shotguns or whatever in the house. If people are unable to look after firearms and do not take precautions that one would consider to be reasonable, my policy is to seek to have the courts address the issue.

Are such people committing an offence?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It constitutes good management.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Subject to someone advising me on the law, I am not aware that leaving firearms under the table or the bed constitutes a specific offence.

However, the Garda then can object to the renewal of the licence.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It arises in the context of the suitability of that individual to hold a licence.

Perhaps there is potential to do this on a greater scale because it appears to be an incredible lapse on the part of those who hold firearms.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

We continually give crime prevention advice nationwide in this regard. In this day and age, common sense dictates it is incumbent on anyone who has a legal firearm to take the necessary precautions. Many people do so and the clubs have great systems in place. That said, I have noticed that criminals easily can lay their hands on firearms, particularly in rural parts of Ireland. I refer to shotguns and that type of thing. To clarify, many such weapons are being imported as sweeteners with drugs and so on.

Are a majority of such firearms stolen or licensed? What is the breakdown?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Many of the shotguns used in crime are stolen licensed firearms. Most of the handguns recovered are guns that were procured by criminals for their criminal activity.

Earlier, in respect of the deployment of resources, Commissioner Murphy spoke of the number of gardaí who are held up in the courts and so on. A scheme was introduced a few years ago to allow gardaí to give evidence by representation or deposition. It was introduced as a pilot scheme in a few——

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

The court presenter programme.

Yes. I am surprised the programme has not been expanded. How many stations or districts operate that scheme? What is the difficulty in this regard? Have technical or legal difficulties arisen with it or is there resistance within the force?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

There is no resistance. As I noted earlier, we are considering how to extend it to all of the courts in Dublin.

Is progress in this regard not slow?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It is taking place. There are resource and training issues because this entails deploying under supervision sergeants and others who are trained to a great depth in court presentation. It certainly forms part of our future direction.

Presumably, it would be very cost effective in respect of the deployment of resources.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Yes, within reason. However, there always are two sides to every coin. As I explained to Deputy O'Brien earlier, I also need my people, particularly the young people——

To gain experience.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

——to go into court and gain experience, particularly in the early stages of their formation. There is no better place to gain experience of the proofs that are required for a criminal prosecution than when giving evidence in court.

I welcome the emphasis now being placed on community policing. As I noted earlier, we probably are paying a price because it had been regarded as being low-status in previous years and consequently I welcome the new focus on it. Commissioner Murphy stated in his introduction that he was re-energising the community Garda service. What precisely did he mean? Does he believe there is merit to giving additional recognition to gardaí who work in this service because many other high-profile units may be perceived to have a higher status? Is there a case for an intermediate grade between Garda and sergeant to give recognition to the importance of such work at community level and to encourage more gardaí into it?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

While I am loth to answer briefly, on the last aspect I do not see a case because all community gardaí are integrated within the structure of the force. I consider community policing to be a key aspect of policing. The re-energising to which I referred pertains to renewal and getting the gardaí talking to communities because neighbourhood policing and neighbourhood watch in a structured format has been in operation since 1984. The President very kindly came with me to Athlone approximately six weeks ago to launch the first conference on neighbourhood policing and her presence there gave it a new drive and focus.

This is about old concepts, as policing does not change over the years. While technology and other innovations help to change the manner of policing, we need to re-energise the old concepts. Moreover, we now are policing a much more diverse society. Approximately 22% of the inhabitants of one of my divisions in Dublin are not Irish nationals and I must cater for this. This pertains to re-energising the manner in which we go about so doing and the challenges it brings to us in respect of language and interpretation, while at the same time providing a service and getting the information from the community that is so important.

From my experience with gardaí over the years, entering the important area of community policing was not perceived as being a good career move by those who were ambitious to further their career. It was perceived at times as being almost a backwater and that even though one was doing important work, one was left to get on with it for years and did not progress up the ranks. Has this changed?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Yes, it has and I will provide an example. Roxborough Road in Limerick is an area in which I wish to develop community policing. I spoke to members earlier about the additional gardaí we have deployed to the city of Limerick and an inspector was specifically appointed to deal with community policing in Roxborough Road. When I visited Limerick on Tuesday, I spoke to that inspector. As many young gardaí have been sent to Limerick, we are getting young members out on the ground. The same position obtains in Finglas, where an inspector has been specifically allocated to community policing, and elsewhere.

With the best will in the world, there was a time when, if something happened, particularly in an area like that to which Deputy Broughan referred in which there were six murders within a short time in the north city, there was a great tendency to call on community policing resources and to pull them back into investigation mode. I do not wish to see this happening, if at all possible. While there will be emergencies when it is all hands on deck, I want the community policing stream to be specifically devoted to community policing. However, I do not simply want gardaí going around drinking cups of tea with people while trying to get information. There are two sides to community policing. There is the firm side——

I apologise for interrupting the Commissioner but I was referring to community gardaí who were doing a preventative job in areas with major social problems. Such gardaí were getting involved with the local football and soccer clubs, were organising summer events and were doing really important work——

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Such activities constitute core business.

They constitute core preventative work. However, I do not believe such work received the recognition it deserved over the years. The evidence is that it was not.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

That may be a perception and I appreciate——

I do not simply refer to deploying them when a problem arises. I mean deploying them when one is trying to prevent major problems arising from social deprivation.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

That is precisely what we are doing. We do not simply react to a situation. Community policing is not like that. Community policing means maintaining a presence all the time. With the best will in the world, someone who goes into community policing must stay for a certain length of time as he or she will not be able to develop the contacts otherwise. However, I want to finish my point that there are two sides to every——

I apologise for interrupting the Commissioner.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Not at all. There are two sides to community policing. There is the soft side, namely, prevention and the development of community links, but there is also the need for enforcement. I want my people to do this and to be seen to take action so that they will have credibility within the communities. When I referred to cups of tea, I did not want to denigrate activities. I only wanted to explain how there are two sides to the coin.

There is a bridge building element. Not only must gardaí be deployed, but young people must look to them as role models. The Commissioner referred to people's reluctance to come forward to provide information because of barriers between the Garda and the community, not only the fear of reprisals. Important work has been done in breaking down what was a traditional barrier.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I agree.

Preventive programmes have also been embarked on through sports and youth clubs.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It is key for my people to be involved in GAA and soccer clubs and elsewhere. The public must be able to identify with local gardaí. In this day of modern transport systems, some of my members travel long distances to work. It is a challenge for every European police force. We do not have the old local residency facility. Community policing will fill the gap and is as much a part of my plan as it was for my predecessor. However, it is a work in progress. The President supports us and attended the first conference. Volunteerism is the other side of the community coin and is important. I hope I have answered all of the questions.

I have some further questions, although they have been touched on. The Commissioner mentioned the increasing diversity in society and members of other nationalities entering the country. What success has the Garda had in recruiting non-Irish gardaí? Is it still viewed as an important plank in the recruitment process?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Very much so. To say that I am disappointed with the level of recruitment is an understatement. I would like to see greater numbers. Some 16 have been attested and 16 are in training. Some eight have been attested in the Garda reserve and 18 non-nationals are at various stages of training. These are the current staff figures. In my 2008 policing plan I was looking for a more substantial increase, but we are working on the issue and are trying to reach out to communities. We have received many applications, but the standard did not stand up.

In many areas, particularly in Dublin and elsewhere, there is great diversity. A diverse police force will lend itself to receiving more support for the Garda among the new Irish.

I have a question for the Department's officials on the penalty points arrangement with the North. What is the position on the 32 county transfer ability of penalty points for Northern and Southern drivers?

Mr. Michael Flahive

The Department of Transport is taking the lead. Discussions are under way, including at European level. I do not know whether I can supply more information, but I will supply the Deputy with an update on the current position.

It would be helpful. Will the clerk request the information? While I am not picking on Northern drivers, speeding on the M1, which runs through my constituency of Dublin North, is a major issue. The country faces a problem. If the Department of Transport is responsible, we will pursue that Department. It is an urgent issue, given the number of serious accidents involving Northern drivers in my area. Does the Garda have figures on Northern registered cars involved in road traffic offences in the Republic?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

I will revert to the Deputy.

Does the Commissioner see it as a problem?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Of course I do. I will give the committee an idea of what we are doing about it. As my colleague, Mr. Flahive, stated, the Department of Transport has the lead in terms of cross-Border policy issues. The traffic units of the North and South exchanged one superintendent each for eight weeks. In conjunction with the Northern authorities, Ms Kathleen O'Toole, the chief inspector, is concluding a review of our roads policing.

I cannot address the matter of harmonising enforcement legislation, as it pertains to the Department of Transport. However, it is a problem. The two regimes must harmonise more clearly in terms of enforcement.

I shall not detain the Commissioner much longer, but it is an important matter. If a speeder or dangerous driver from the North is stopped and given a ticket or warning and he or she is caught again, is there any facility whereby the offences can be linked in existing Garda systems? If someone speeds in the Republic, what can the Garda do?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

The Garda records the details, but it is a question of an inability to enforce the penalty. Mr. Flahive might be in a position to supply a note.

Mr. Michael Flahive

I will pursue the matter, as the Deputy's question on interoperability and applying penalties imposed in another jurisdiction is valid. As the issue has been discussed, I will provide the committee with an update.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

That does not in any way detract from what is occurring between the police forces, namely, information exchanges and joint checkpoints. If something occurs in the South, we provide the North with information and vice versa. As I understand it, the issue is one of enforcement or the collection of fines.

My final question is on foreign registered cars. Many people working in Ireland for a sustained period, perhaps permanently, leave their cars registered as Polish or so on. What is the Garda's position? Regarding citizens of other EU states living and working in Ireland, does the Garda regularly check whether their cars have been registered in the Republic?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

The import of vehicles is a matter for customs——

There is a serious gap. While I understand that it is a matter for customs——

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

——in regard to the cross-Border aspects of it.

I am referring to someone from another EU member state who lives and works in Ireland and drives a foreign registered car. Is the Garda conducting checks to ensure those people are not just visiting? What is the current position?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Absolutely. One of the challenges for the Garda is to deal with the types of driving licence and insurance that might apply. Two or three years ago when I was deputy commissioner in charge of operations, I attended a seminar on training and upskilling our people in this regard. It is a major challenge because everyone can speak English until detected for an offence by the Garda Síochána. There are interpretation issues and I reassure members that this is very much a part of our policing focus.

The left hand drive cars are a safety issue as well.

Mr. John Leamy

I know from experience in a previous career that it is a Revenue offence to have a car unregistered in the State. Revenue sets up many checkpoints to seize these cars and there are joint checkpoints with the Garda Síochána to seize as many cars as possible.

Does the Garda Síochána seize cars?

Mr. John Leamy

The customs service seizes cars on that basis.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

As a chief administration officer advised me, one of the areas of enforcement that applies is that we continue to set up checkpoints with a raft of agencies such as the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the customs service and Revenue. I have signed up to the multi-agency concept in dealing with these issues.

Regarding aircraft, does the Garda Síochána own aircraft or does it employ airplanes for surveillance? Does the Garda Síochána own helicopters and how successful is air surveillance?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

It is a vital part of policing. We own a fixed wing airplane and two EC 135 helicopters. We have decommissioned another helicopter but have not sold it yet. Surveillance is a part of policing. In Dublin every night one hears the sound of the helicopter. We use it for following stolen vehicles and suspicious vehicles. We use the downlink system on it to project manage protests, rallies, and major sporting events. If I did not have aerial support, it would diminish our capacity.

Does it extend to rural areas?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

Yes, when we can. I have plans for more aircraft but we must live with the economic reality.

Are they troublesome and do they create difficulties in respect of maintenance?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

We have maintenance arrangements. We do not have our own pilots, we utilise airforce personnel to fly the helicopters and have maintenance and power by the hour contracts with regard to the upkeep and maintenance of the helicopters.

Did the force receive advice from other forces when these helicopters were being procured?

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

We did a major amount of research into the matter. There are very few suppliers of these aircraft. There is experience available. The key aspect is the facilities we can put on the helicopters.

The reason I asked the question is because of difficulties we had with the Department of Defence and the Army in Chad. I am trying to get a comparison.

Mr. Fachtna Murphy

We have not sold a squirrel yet. We will be careful.

Mr. John Buckley

I did not finish off that question on whether it was cheaper to buy in 2006 rather than 2007. I explained that buying in the first half of 2007 was the same price because it came under the same contract. As an accountant, Deputy Fleming is aware of the concept of discounted cash flow. Under that, the time value of money must be taken into account. The time value of the money may outweigh any inflation that might have occurred in 2007. However, that is a debate better had over a pint.

The police force is at an intermediate stage of development in several areas, such as in its maintenance arrangements and the fleet optimisation study. We will follow up on these matters in future audits.

One of the lessons to be learned is that there is need for modern ordering systems. From looking at the Commissioner's statement of strategy, we know the force is moving in that direction but it is important that modern methods of deploying vehicles is part of that. Some sort of carry-over mechanism is needed. Public Financial Procedure is an administrative document and can be changed administratively. Already, such an arrangement applies to administrative budgets. There is also the capital envelopes idea.

The idea that vehicles are not capital was expressed. While they are not capital from the point of view of the State allocation system, any accountant will tell you that they are capital items on the balance sheet and are depreciated. We must recognise the accounting and physical realities in our financial procedures.

There is a dichotomy between what Mr. Buckley is saying and what the Department of Finance is saying about whether they are treated as capital or current expenditure. What is the position?

Mr. John Buckley

There are many situations in the State funding system where there are dichotomies and this is one. The subhead is classified as current for the purposes of Vote accounting. In reality, we must consider the way an accountant would view this, although I am not saying that accountants have a total purchase on reality. I do not want to get into another row with Deputy Fleming. Accountants consider this as capital because it confers a benefit over an extended period of time. The accounting cost incurred in any year may only be a portion of the outlay in year one. Buying a car, a building or any asset confers a benefit over a period of time. Therefore, it is capital. That is our way of looking at it. The Department of Finance has other rules from a funding point of view. We have identified many rules recently where there are countervailing pressures on decision makers.

We will wind up this meeting. It thank the Commissioner, his staff and the officials from the Departments of Finance and Justice, Equality and Law Reform for being so responsive to questions put. Vote 20 and Chapter 5.1 are noted. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Next week we will consider the Vote of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources as well as Chapter 8.1, the National Digital Research Centre.

The committee adjourned at 1.30 p.m. until 10. a.m on Thursday, 20 November 2008.
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