Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Oct 2010

Chapter 8: Public Procurement

Ms Clare McGrath (Chairman, Office of Public Works) called and examined.

We are considering the 2009 annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, chapter 8, on public procurement.

I welcome the witnesses. Before we commence I advise you that you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give to this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to do so you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against a person of either House, a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee should also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister or the merits of the objectives of such policy.

I welcome Ms Clare McGrath, chairman of the Office of Public Works and ask her to introduce her officials.

Ms Clare McGrath

With me is Mr. Vincent Campbell, the director of the national procurement service and his colleagues, Ms Eilis O'Connell and Mr. Martin Bourke, principal officers. The Department of Finance officials will introduce themselves.

I welcome the Department of Finance officials.

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

I am principal officer in the national public procurement policy unit and am accompanied by my colleagues, Mr. Billy Noone, who deals with general policy and supplies and services and Mr. Nicholas O'Loughlin, who deals with works.

Before I ask Mr. Buckley to introduce the proceedings I have a brief statement regarding the hearing we had last week. The Committee of Public Accounts met today to consider further action which needs to be taken to address the issues that have arisen in regard to the operation of the unofficial SIPTU account associated with the SKILL programme. In advance of its next meeting on this issue, the committee has agreed to seek the following: the report on the investigation being conducted by Mr. Turlough O'Sullivan on the SKILL programme; a copy of the internal audit report being prepared in the Department of Finance; a copy of the report which has been commissioned by SIPTU into the operation of the SIPTU national health and local authority levy fund account; a copy of the internal audit report being prepared in the HSE on the health services partnership forum; and information from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on the funding that was lodged into the account by the Department.

We also agreed today to write to all those who were involved in the steering group or who were named at last week's meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts under section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 to provide them with an opportunity to give evidence, if they so wish, to the committee, in particular. The committee will write to the following: Mr. Alan Smith, the now retired general manager of SKILL; the trustees of the SIPTU national health and local authorities levy fund account, Mr. Matt Merrigan and Mr. Jack Kelly; Mr. Bill Attlee, the chairman of the steering group; Mr. Tom Dowling, the now retired finance official who was on the SKILL group; and Mr. Frank Ahern, the former Department of Health and Children official who participated in a number of foreign study visits even though he had already retired from the Department.

To safeguard public funds, the committee also agreed to communicate with the Minister for Finance that, in its view, an immediate freeze should be placed on the funds in the SIPTU national health and local authority levy fund account, if that has not already been done, and that once the current investigations have been completed, all public funds in the SIPTU national health and local authority levy fund account should be returned to the Exchequer. As a follow-up, the committee demands that all payments made to public officials which breached public sector travel policy guidelines should be pursued, these officials should repay the State in respect of such expenditure, any consultancy payments to former officials from the SKILL programme should be reviewed to establish whether there was a breach of public sector pension abatement rules and, if that is the case, an appropriate repayment should be sought.

The view of the committee is that any abuse of State funds is inappropriate, to say the least, and there is a need to follow up on those who were responsible so that they repay the State, even where officials have since retired. The committee will get to the bottom of what has already been described as a slush fund which was under the control of senior union officials who worked in unison with senior public servants. All of this unorthodox activity was rubber-stamped by a steering group that was established to develop courses for lower paid workers in the health sector. What emerged at our meeting last week relating to breaches of controls, lavish expenditure on taxis and foreign travel, and breaches of public procurement rules and Civil Service employment law was truly shocking and those responsible for this will have to be held to account. Having said that, I ask Mr. Buckley to introduce today's business.

Mr. John Buckley

Today's business is public procurement and deals with our chapter in the 2009 report. Recent estimates suggest that procurement by public bodies of goods, services and construction works accounted for more than €16 billion of public expenditure in 2009. The scale of this spend makes it important that the State takes all available measures to position itself to achieve economies and good value for the expenditure. The report before the committee today looks at recent developments in public procurement.

Overall, the Department of Finance is responsible for developing public procurement policy and setting the broad strategic direction for procurement implementation. As part of that remit it was instrumental in establishing the National Procurement Service, NPS, in the Office of Public Works, OPW. That service is tasked with establishing national framework agreements for public procurement, providing public sector bodies with procurement advice and training and developing web-based e-procurement.

The examination found that the NPS was originally expected to build to a staff level of approximately 50 in the short term but its staffing is about half of that level. Sanction has been provided recently for the filling of a further 21 posts. With regard to its technology objectives, a planned upgrade of the e-tender system by the NPS has also been delayed. The service needs to become fully operational quickly if it is to have a significant impact on the cost of public procurement in the short term.

The NPS has undertaken some survey-based investigations which are designed to find out the areas which have the highest spend across public sector bodies and who the biggest suppliers are. This kind of data gathering and analysis is beginning to put it in a position where it can strategically target the significant categories of procurement for co-ordinated market intervention. One area which the NPS might consider in future is to prioritise its work and the development of framework agreements with the highest spend areas it is identifying in the course of its survey work.

When a new service such as the NPS is developed the performance improvement it is expected to achieve should be capable of being tracked. Accordingly, we have suggested that strategic objectives should be set for the NPS and that it should monitor and report publicly on its progress and performance against those objectives. Key performance measures should focus on achievement in areas such as price and cost reduction, consumption levels and the extent to which procurement facilitated by the NPS is availed of by public bodies that are within its remit.

The issue of non-competitive procurement is the second item in the report and deals with the non-competitive procurement of goods and services by Government bodies and has been reported upon in a number of previous reports. In general, there is an obligation on Government agencies to follow a competitive process which is carried out in an open, objective and transparent fashion. This is expected to yield the best value for public procurement.

Annual returns by Departments and offices for 2009 indicate that payments were made under at least 473 contracts that were concluded without competition. These contracts had a reported value of more than €69 million in 2009. This was a moderate reduction in both the number and value of non-competitive procurement payments reported in 2009 relative to the situation in 2008. The indications are, however, that the returns from the HSE, which are now included for the first time, were not complete for 2009 and that is one area which I will review in depth in the course of the coming audit.

Analysis of the returns found that the Irish Prison Service continues to have the highest reported level of contracts awarded without a competitive process, with expenditure of €22 million on 154 contracts in 2009. The Department of Finance is working with the Prison Service to reduce the extent to which it has recourse to non-competitive procurement. While the exception categories exist to cover valid administrative challenges, it is important to ensure recourse to them is valid. In particular, whenever extensions of contracts are proposed, there is a need to review the rationale formally and to document the related decisions to ensure they represent good value, they do not continue longer than is necessary and the administrative convenience of such arrangements does not outweigh the commitment to competitive procurement methods.

It is important that Departments and offices avoid identifying their needs by reference to branded products. Specifications should, where possible, be described in generic terms to encourage competition. While the results of many procurements may be the purchase of branded products or services, the procurement process should be characterised by efforts to minimise brand capture to ensure procurement decisions do not result in future streams of payments over which Departments and offices have little or no control. In this context, the report found that more than €17 million was reported to have been spent in 2009 on proprietary goods without a tendering competition.

I thank Mr. Buckley and invite Ms McGrath to make her opening statement.

Ms Clare McGrath

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the opportunity to make an opening statement on Chapter 8 of the Controller and Auditor General's annual report for 2009 on public procurement by central government. As is set out in the report, the value of the overall procurement spend for 2009 was €16.3 billion. Of this, €7 billion relates to capital works and €9.3 billion relates to goods and services, of which the central government spend is in the order of €2 billion.

As the committee will be aware, the National Procurement Service, NPS, was established in the Office of Public Works in early 2009 on foot of a Government decision. The NPS, along with all public sector procurers, is charged with ensuring best value and cost savings deriving from procurement. The NPS has a lead role in modernising procurement practices for goods and services across the public sector. Accordingly, I will restrict my comments to goods and services only. An aim of the NPS is to raise the level of professionalism among public service procurers. In approaching its work, the NPS is guided by the previous findings of this committee and the various writings of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Chapter 8 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report commences with an examination of the role and initiatives of the NPS in public procurement.

The NPS groups its work around three main strategic goals, namely, strategic sourcing; education, development and guidance; and e-procurement. During the past 12 months it has been involved in extensive activities to further each of these goals. I intend to deal with each of these in turn.

In regard to strategic sourcing, the NPS has identified the importance of professionally targeted purchasing based on the analysis of data, trends and Government policies across the public sector commensurate with what the Comptroller and Auditor General has been saying. Mindful of this, we have, for the first time in the public service, completed a major exercise to identify the top procurement spend categories across the entire service. This analysis gives the NPS and the wider public service a clear focus on categories of procurement that should be targeted for intervention. During the past year the NPS has launched major procurement campaigns in areas that could be best described as being among the most important "big ticket" items. These are areas of procurement that have a reach across the majority of the public service and, therefore, afford an opportunity for heightened levels of collaboration and also promise the possibility of maximum return on investment. These important areas would include energy, office supplies and equipment, vehicles, plant and equipment.

In setting out these targeted areas for procurement, it is important to raise an issue that has received some public comment in recent months, namely, the number of non-domestic suppliers winning public procurement contracts in Ireland. The European Commission released its statistic suggesting that 17% of contracts by number awarded in 2008 went to suppliers outside the jurisdiction. This statistic must come with a health warning, however, as it is based on incomplete data relating only to above threshold procurements where contract notices were published and the nationality of the winning tender was disclosed. When compared with the value, as opposed to the number, of contracts going to non-Irish companies in 2008, the figure amounts to less than 5% of the overall public spend on procurement. It should also be noted that the figures quoted by the Commission do not distinguish between companies in the UK and those based in Northern Ireland, so of the contracts going abroad, many may have stayed in the island of Ireland. The European Commission agrees that an alternative interpretation of its figures is that "about 95% of all procurement by value was from domestic suppliers." I think it appropriate to avail of this opportunity to set that record straight.

In the current economic climate everyone will be conscious of the plight of businesses, especially small and medium-sized enterprises, SMEs. We are aware that industries such as the print industry have been particularly badly affected by the downturn. The NPS is careful not to adopt a one-size-fits-all approach to procurement. Where possible and within national and EU law, the NPS will facilitate the breaking up of contracts into lots as well as encouraging collaboration between smaller SMEs. One particular example of initiatives in this area is where the NPS invited applications from print suppliers to be included on a panel from which public authorities could request tenders or quotations by way of less formal procedures for smaller contracts. We are in that space, as the Comptroller and Auditor General has said, in regard to framework contracts as well.

Without doubt the most significant development in the area of facilitating the SME sector has been the publication in August of circular No. 10 of 2010 from the Department of Finance. The NPS engaged with that Department in the preparation of this document which aims to address significant concerns the SMEs have in regard to access to public procurement opportunities. The new arrangements include greater open advertising of opportunities — the threshold isnow €25,000 in the area of goods and services; a reduced requirement for paperwork, accounts, etc. at the early stages of tendering; an instruction that suppliers are not to be charged for access to tender opportunities; an assurance that all criteria used would be appropriate and proportionate; and an instruction that insurance levels would be set at proportionate levels. It is important to note all of these actions are consistent with the recently published EU commissioned research on SME access to and participation in public procurement opportunities.

In regard to education, development and guidance, the importance of having a sufficiently knowledgeable and skilled cadre of public sector procurement purchasers is essential to the efficient and effective maintenance of the public service procurement environment. The NPS has embraced this challenge through a number of initiatives. These include the establishment of the first ever cross-sectoral education and development work group to identify specific training needs for procurement officials in the public service; the launching of a series of educational seminars on excellence in public procurement for buyers; and the launch of an accredited diploma programme for all NPS officials and the funding of attendance at the MBS in strategic procurement, a course which is taught in Dublin City University. Apart from formal training courses, the NPS has been very active in the area of providing guidance to Departments and Government offices which are either involved with or embarking on especially complex procurement projects.

The NPS is also very mindful of the need to ensure suppliers have access to a level of training and guidance because public procurement is complex. To date, in excess of 400 SMEs have benefited from workshops and presentations on public service procurement. This is ever growing and is changing constantly. We work in collaboration with InterTradeIreland, Enterprise Ireland and ISME. Owing to the reaction from those involved, it is planned to continue with this initiative into 2011.

Another area for streamlining processes is to reduce barriers to entry for suppliers and to mitigate legal risks on the part of the public service. We have undertaken with the Chief State Solicitor's office and the Attorney General a major initiative to standardise tender and contract documentation relating to procurement. These documents are out for observation and comment with various employer representative groups prior to roll-out across the public sector.

We have also moved to establish public service procurement networks. The NPS has recognised that before real progress can be made on the issue of public service-wide contracts, there needs to be a significantly increased level of communication and awareness between the key players within the public service. We are seeking to address this through the establishment of important networks and relationships. They include a procurement liaison officers' network representative for each of the 34 local authorities; a third level education procurement working group to identify areas for efficiencies and increased value for money in that sector; and a close working relationship with the Government contracts committee.

Recognising the necessity for the NPS to have access to the best of national and international advice on procurement and supply chain management, a procurement advisory group was established in 2010. To date the advisory group has met twice and has provided the NPS with valuable insights based on the members' experiences. I take this opportunity to acknowledge the generous support that each one of those members has given since the commencement of the group.

The NPS maintains the www.etenders.gov.ie website which is a critical part of the national infrastructure for public service procurement. This is where suppliers find out what is available for procurement. It is an extremely efficient site with some 4,300 public service buyers registered and a very significant 61,000 suppliers registered. A particular feature of the website is the level of transparency it affords suppliers who have an interest in public sector contracts by automatically e-mailing them alerts when tenders of interest are published. Those above the threshold of €25,000have come down so they will be on e-tender and suppliers will be aware of open tendering on these as well. While we are in the middle of the process of undertaking an upgrade of the site which is due for re-tender, there is no diminution in the service being provided. The Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned there has been a delay. We have had legal issues but there is no diminution in the service available on the e-tenders. It is scheduled for 2011, and it will also have significant enhancements and efficiencies for buyers and suppliers.

The Comptroller and Auditor General has noted in his report that from a public accountability viewpoint procurement must meet two criteria: to achieve value for money and to be conducted in an open, transparent and competitive way. We fully support this view. Through its efforts in central purchasing, organisation of collaborative arrangements and its initiatives to upskill buyers and suppliers, the National Procurement Service, NPS, aims to significantly increase the effectiveness of public procurement.

In all of our work we recognised the need to strike a balance between value for money for the taxpayer, the importance of a healthy and competitive supplier base, and the acknowledgment that many Government policies can be furthered through the public procurement process. We are very conscious that none of these issues are wholly mutually exclusive. In fact, sometimes objectives can appear to be in conflict. In approaching the market it is important that we give due consideration to all these tensions, and perhaps conflicts.

I thank my colleagues and counterparts throughout the public service for the assistance they have afforded my officials in the past year and look forward to their continued co-operation in the future. I thank the Chairman and the members for their attention and will do my best to answer any questions they may wish to raise on chapter 8.

Can we publish Ms McGrath's statement?

Ms Clare McGrath

Yes.

Before I call Deputy McGrath, there is one omission in Ms McGrath's statement and I will ask either Ms McGrath or the Department of Finance representatives about it. It concerns the question of professional fees and legal fees. I attempted to do an exercise recently on the amount of legal fees being paid by the State and I estimate that up to €0.5 billion has been spent in recent years on legal fees yet there is no mention of procurement or the OPW's responsibilities in that area.

Ms Clare McGrath

I might let the Department of Finance representatives come in on this, but I gave particular examples that we are dealing with immediately in the areas of the top categories of spend. We are dealing with office supplies, equipment plant and various things. Legal services is another category. We have not yet focused on that but we are involved. We have to undertake research under that heading with the Chief State Solicitor's office and the Attorney General. That is an area we would move into. It is not an area that would be disregarded but it is not immediately where our focus is now.

Despite the fact that up to €0.5 billion is spent on legal fees in recent years. Has the Department of Finance quantified that figure for us?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

I will explain a few points around legal fees. The issue of the procurement of any goods and services in the first instance is a matter for the contracting authority. It is the party entering into the contract — that department, office or agency — and its Accounting Officer or accountable person is the first person who has responsibility in that regard.

The role of the Department of Finance is in terms of policy and legislation in the area. On the legislative front, legal services are part of a group of services that, under European Union procurement law, are not subject to the normal rules of the procurement directives. In part this is a recognition of the fact that legal services is one of those types of services that are not necessarily fully amenable to cross-border trade between member states because each jurisdiction has its own legal services. A supplier in one member state, therefore, would not necessarily be able to provide services in another. That said, however, the EU——

I am not being impolite. My question was a simple one. Does the Department of Finance collect figures for legal fees through Departments? Irrespective of what European law states, can Ms Hanlon tell me that we are getting value for money for the amount we pay out?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

Going through the Book of Estimates to look for the procurement of legal services like legal counsel by various Departments, I have some figures on that. These are not figures that in the normal course of events the unit would have but they are available through looking through the Book of Estimates. For last year it was of the order of €115 million. A large part of that would be around criminal legal aid, civil legal aid, the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, and the Chief State Solicitor's office. That is a large amount of money by any stretch and the principles we have for public procurement and obtaining value for money apply across the board in regard to all procurement. They should be at the heart of every procurement.

There must be recognition of the circumstances of individual procurements. Through e-tenders one can see some instances where agencies seek tenders for legal services through competitive processes but as the chairman of the Office of Public Works, OPW, has said, it is not an area to which specific attention has yet been given in the improvement of the situation globally around the competitive tendering. It is important to note that in 2009, as part of the efficiency measures and the reduction of costs, there was a decision that the procurements of professional legal services would be reduced by 8% and that there would be an 8% reduction in fees paid by the State. That has been done. As the chairman has said, it is intended to head for a further initiative in engagement with the large procurers such as the Chief State Solicitor's office to see what can be done about engendering a higher degree of competition within the procurements.

Will Ms Hanlon give us the figures? She gave us a figure of €115 million for last year.

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

Of the order of, yes.

Is that central spending?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

Yes.

Does Ms Hanlon have figures for each Department and State agency?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

What I have are the figures that are in the Book of Estimates. I did a quick run through of the Book of Estimates to pick out the subheads that would have had procurement of legal services as a subhead such as, for instance, the Chief State Solicitor's office, the DPP's office——

We know those, but what about bodies like the Health Service Executive, HSE, and Departments?

A Member

NAMA.

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

NAMA does not have a Vote because it is funded through the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA, which has direct access, and it reports——

I ask Ms Hanlon to deal with the question I asked.

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

I do not have a comprehensive list for every instance of procurement, nor in the normal course would the procurement policy unit have full lists for any particular sector of the level of procurements. However, in terms of the initiative undertaken as one of the surveys to which the Comptroller and Auditor General referred, one of the surveys undertaken by the NPS on large levels of spending indicated some level across a broader constituency than that which is directly funded through the Book of Estimates.

Surely the Department of Finance has available the total spending by Departments and Government agencies on legal fees. Is the Department satisfied that proper procurement practices are being followed in dealing with those services and is there real competition in that regard?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

On the question of value for money being obtained, that is clearly set out in all of the guidance as being a decision and a call that is put at the local level of each procurer. Each agency, each Department——

Does the Department not have responsibility for ensuring that guidelines are complied with? Can Ms Hanlon tell us today that guidelines are being complied with in the allocating of legal services?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

We do not monitor the instances of each tendering opportunity.

Who does that?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

In terms of the accountability and reporting arrangements in place, in general, every single procurement — legal services no more than anything else — is done first of all through local management, through heads of Departments as Accounting Officers, through boards where there are board structures, through subcommittees of boards, which are set up in accordance with the code of practice——

Could Ms Hanlon do a simple exercise on that for the committee because there are huge sums buried in departmental Votes. I want Ms Hanlon, first, to isolate the amount of money being spent by each Department and State agency on legal fees; second, to ensure that procurement practices are being followed to the letter of the law, as outlined in the Department's guidelines, and to come back to us with a guarantee on that; and, three, to discuss with Departments whether there is real competition. Huge sums are being given out, as we heard Ms McGrath say earlier. There is no mention of this huge area of expenditure.

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

We will come back to the Chairman with a note on that. We are aware that the HSE, about which the Chairman specifically asked, is going to the market——

I just cited it as an example.

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

Yes. We are aware it is going to the market for the procurement of legal services and we would expect competition to be engendered through that.

Part of the enforcement mechanism and the accountability mechanism for the adherence to guidelines generally is, as I discussed, through the general reporting mechanisms, also through audit, both internal and external, with reports by the Comptroller and Auditor General to the Houses, and through the accountability mechanism of this committee.

As a general approach, as was explained in a letter from the Secretary General of the Department of Finance to the committee in March of last year, the Department is not in a position to police or oversee each individual contract.

Ms Hanlon might get assurances from Departments in that respect because we are talking about massive amounts. For example, one company, Arthur Cox, got approximately €10 million in the past two years for contracts for one project. That was for consultancies provided for State agencies on the banking crisis. That is only one simple example.

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

That is specific contract about which I am aware.

It is an example of the scale of expenditure about which we are talking and there was no mention of it today during the opening address or in the statement. Ms Hanlon cannot give us figures for Departments or agencies.

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

That particular procurement is a rather exceptional one. It is one that happens to be undertaken by my Department and therefore I have some knowledge of it, which would be atypical of projects because Department of Finance is not watching each procurement done by agencies.

I am astounded by the fact that nobody has a figure for us on this huge area of public expenditure on one service alone. The official from the Department of Finance cannot say to us today that she has a figure for this and she cannot tell us if proper procurement practice has been followed.

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

What we know, Chairman, is that we have guidelines in place and it is the responsibility of the procurers and their Accounting Officers to enforce those guidelines and to apply them.

In the case of FÁS, the Department has guidelines and these were not being followed either in regard to matters. There is not only a responsibility to issue guidelines but to make sure that they are policed and adhered to.

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

We will follow up on this and send a note to the committee.

I welcome the officials from the OPW and the Department of Finance and I thank Ms McGrath for her opening remarks.

In practical terms how has the National Procurement Service, NPS, gone about its work and what progress has it made to date on achieving savings on the big ticket items, to which Ms McGrath referred, on the procurement of common goods and services? She mentioned a number of them — energy, office supplies, equipment, vehicles and so forth. Can she give details of the total value of the contracts for those items entered into by the OPW?

Ms Clare McGrath

In terms of overall savings achieved, which is in conjunction with individual Departments on individual contracts, there has been a saving of €35 million to date. In terms of contracts we are placing, they fall under a number of different headings, and this relates to the first part of the Deputy's question. In the National Procurement Service, NPS, we analyse every category from the point of view of a number of different headings, the demand in terms of who is looking for the items, the market in terms of those who are out in the market and any Government policy.

We may have different strategies for different types of categories. If one takes an item that is relatively straightforward, involving low risk but high volume, such as office equipment which would have within it separate elements such as stationery, ICT consumables and certain equipment, we may break that into lots and we would consider what we would do in that respect. I am in the middle of tender process in this respect so I am not in a position yet to get responses. This is a case where one would immediately see a different in the unit prices of items, in terms of what we might have paid and the price we would now get from a tender. The saving achieved depends on what is then purchased, what is used by the purchaser in terms of items in the contract. What we can say is that this is the figure that was paid, for example, the unit price of a pen, and this is the price of it under the new rules. We would extrapolate from that the overall savings that would be made.

In other instances we are putting in place framework contracts, to which reference was made. In certain instances we have facilitated buyers in certain areas and, in that respect, we have said we want to run a competition, that we do not want to start right at the beginning and define everything. This has been done for us by the NPS. Electricity is an example of this. We have spent 12 months considering what is required by the industry, the regulator, buyers and in particular sectors. We have put in place framework contracts, which allow sector interests — perhaps the HSE, schools or local authorities — to run a competition within that for their own purposes. There are savings that are achieved in the ultimate price but they are also savings being achieved in efficiencies, which is very significant for us.

We no longer have over 300 procurement bodies individually procuring. They are using the benefits that are being leveraged by a central procurement body with its expertise to facilitate them in what they want to do. Procurement is not necessarily their core business but they need to procure things. They seek to leverage us.

I am not answering in the sense of giving the Deputy a sum but I can supply figures in particular instances where we can show unit price differences. I can come back to the committee with exact figures.

Can Ms McGrath give a sum for the total value of the contracts entered not under the new arrangements?

Ms Clare McGrath

We have placed contracts to a value of €21 million in 2010. We have put in place frameworks for other items——

From which contracts will flow.

Ms Clare McGrath

——for which contracts have yet to be placed.

How many framework contracts are in place and what areas of expenditure do they cover?

Ms Clare McGrath

There is an existing framework contract in place for stationery and office supplies but that is being replaced. We are also replacing the one computer consumables, paper, envelopes, janitorial supplies, personal protective equipment and the furniture contact. Some of those exist but we are replacing them. There are largely the framework contracts for the present. We will be moving into other areas where we will be looking at framework contracts. Before the end of 2010 we will have in place framework contracts for office and stationery supplies, consumables, photocopying supplies and we also have the natural gas framework, the electricity framework and the framework for State advertising.

The National Procurement Service subsumed the Government Supplies Agency, which was the central procurement agency for central government on these areas. We are now moving into a much wider buyer base, which covers local authorities, education and the HSE. They will now avail of all of these.

To clarify, there are framework contracts in place for the areas to which Ms McGrath referred, therefore, in practical terms, there is co-ordination for all local authorities, all State agencies that are within the remit of the OPW, and Departments if they are procuring any items within these framework contracts.

Ms Clare McGrath

Yes, largely before the end of this year.

Will it be in place?

Ms Clare McGrath

Yes, that is our aim.

To confirm what is currently in place, there was a pre-existing——

Ms Clare McGrath

The existing ones are largely frameworks in place for central Government. We are replacing those to include Departments and the wider public service. They will be available and it will be up to the local authority or other body in the wider public service to use them or not. They should use them and we hope they use them, but then it is a matter for the Accounting Officer in that area to determine their procurement method. However, we are saying these would be available to them.

A framework contract involves a panel of suppliers and there is a detailed process to arrive at that panel. How does one ensure that best value for money is achieved at the level of the individual contract?

Ms Clare McGrath

One runs mini-competitions within the panel. There might be instances where one might say the next supplier or whatever, but one would have more detail, particularly relating to pricing if one was doing such frameworks. Largely, however, mini-competitions will be run from within the framework and there will be rules governing that.

Would each Department and each local authority, for example, dip into the panel?

Ms Clare McGrath

Yes.

Is that more efficient than the NPS deciding that over the course of the year the wider State sector will require X number of toners for printers and getting a price for that?

Ms Clare McGrath

To be clear, the NPS will do all of it for central Government. There is no question about that. There will not be individual procurement in central Government. Outside central Government, we suggest that people come together and have collaboration across buyers to leverage the volume they require. Perhaps multiple local authorities could come together. They can do it individually or come together. We will advise and assist in doing the mini-competitions but what will have been provided for them is the up-front starting of procurement. The commencement of procurement, the difficulties and the legal frameworks and so forth will all have been eliminated. In other instances we suggest that we place the contract.

That is my question. Inevitably, the mini-competitions will involve smaller quantities of the goods or the service. Is one losing the benefits of bulk buying if each local authority and agency must go to the panel?

Ms Clare McGrath

There will be instances. This is just the factor of low risk, high volume commodities which are not complex. One could imagine some things in the health area, for example, having very complex specifications but with items such as office equipment and office supplies we suggest those contracts are availed of. They are drawdown contracts so when people are ordering, the price of the item has already been determined. We would have stationery and ICT consumables——

That would be a central contract.

Ms Clare McGrath

Yes.

What areas of expenditure will that cover?

Ms Clare McGrath

There will be, for example, individual drawdown contracts for stationery. Office equipment supplies will be to the value of €22 million. That is for the public service generally. We believe that to be the value, based on our analysis of what buyers are now involved in and getting the returns from everybody as to what is involved. In placing the contract they will draw from that and we will get the benefit of what the Deputy mentioned, the bulk.

Is that separate from the framework contract model?

Ms Clare McGrath

Yes.

How does the NPS decide on the areas of expenditure for which it will set up the framework contract model and for which areas it will manage it centrally through a contract?

Ms Clare McGrath

It is a multiple thing. This is where we analyse every category. We analyse the market, the buying potential and the suppliers. We also look at things such as risk with regard to what we procure. There are instances where the NPS will not have the specialist knowledge of the specification for a particular health equipment item. It does not necessarily make efficiency sense to have that within the NPS. That should stay sectoral, so it might be left at that level. In instances where there are common purchases and usages across the public sector and where there is low risk we should have drawdown contracts, as we do in the central Government area. With stationery and ICT consumables, why would they not be drawdown across a wider area than the Civil Service?

They would be within the €21 million that is currently in place. What target does the NPS anticipate reaching in terms of having central contracts in place rather than framework contracts? What level does it hope to negotiate centrally for the provision of goods and services?

Ms Clare McGrath

We are looking at the top 30 spending areas and are working our way through those to derive the maximum return from what we can do centrally. As we move through them we will analyse them individually and make determinations as to which should be drawdown and which should be frameworks. I would be pre-empting that now. I like to think that we could take advantage of the nature of the public service in terms of its bulk buying power to make most things fairly certain in terms of price. However, I must balance that with something I said at the outset. From whom am I buying? Will it be a single supplier? Is that what I am being asked? Mini-competitions and setting frameworks in place facilitates buyers and suppliers in having, possibly, regional panels for certain procurement types to facilitate greater access for SMEs to procurement. I would not like to prejudge the analysis of some of the categories yet.

Last year, overall, the State spent €9.3 billion on goods and services. To date the NPS has contracts in place for €21 million. The NPS must have an objective or know the overall figure it intends to have. I understand the figure is €300 million for the value of commonly procured goods and services.

Ms Clare McGrath

There are two energy markets — electricity, which is €230 million per annum, and natural gas, which is €56 million per annum. We are putting in place the framework contracts for that for the end of this year.

Should that not be procured under a central contract? Would the NPS not achieve better terms if it negotiated a deal on electricity and gas?

Ms Clare McGrath

There are factors that must be taken into account, such as with regard to the local HSE. My colleague, who has been directly involved in that, can speak on that.

Mr. Martin Bourke

A framework is being put in place for the supply of electricity and natural gas to the public service. Following advice from the energy regulator and the market, it was decided that the most appropriate way to supply the public service was to set up the framework and have mini-competitions by sector. The outcome will be a 12 month contract for the supply of electricity. We are advised that 12 months is the optimum because the industry cannot price beyond 12 months because of uncertainty in international markets, particularly in the gas market. That is a typical example of where we must go case by case on categories. Before that research was conducted some people might have suggested we have a two or three year contract but it is now decided to have a framework, and a sector by sector mini-competition. Those mini-competitions will have to be phased through the year because suppliers advise us, and the regulator confirms it, that if all the public sector demand is brought to the market in a single demand, it would distort the market. It will therefore most likely be a quarterly approach, starting at the end of this month with central Government possibly being followed thereafter by elements of local government and, after that, the third level education sector.

The overall spend is €230 million on electricity and €56 million on gas.

Mr. Martin Bourke

They are per annum figures. That is our best estimate based on data provided to us.

Is that for the wider public sector, central government, agencies and local government?

Mr. Martin Bourke

That is correct.

When is it hoped to have the two framework contracts in place?

Mr. Martin Bourke

It is possible that the framework agreements will be in place in six days because we are in a standstill period now. The market is aware that immediately afterwards there is a central government mini-competition to be launched which is broken into lots. There are five interested suppliers at the moment.

Of the €290 million bill for gas and electricity, how much is envisaged as a saving for the State as a result of those framework agreements being put in place?

Mr. Martin Bourke

There are two points in that regard. The market will dictate that when we receive responses. It is important to note that both of those are in a rising market, unlike a year and a half ago, because various charges are in place. Our best estimate currently is somewhere in the region of 5% but we hope the market will produce more than that.

So we are talking about approximately €15 million.

Mr. Martin Bourke

The market will——

Ms Clare McGrath

We might wish to say 20%, given that the market has to respond. It is in a particular position currently.

I wish to raise the value of goods and services being purchased with an individual value of more than €25,000 without a competitive tendering process. Over the past two years this has amounted to approximately €150 million. What work is being done to reduce that?

Ms Clare McGrath

Individual Accounting Officers will be allowed to answer directly on individual cases but we hope the National Procurement Service, NPS, in setting up framework and draw-down contracts would allow other bodies, for reasons that are allowed under Circular 40/2002, to use central contracts. There would then be compliance. There are instances where it is allowed to use single tendering but we like to think that might be minimised by use of framework contracts and also through education and training that will be ongoing with buyers. As I noted in my opening statement, we will advise and educate buyers on the need to have tendering and competition.

The culprits remain the same. They are the Irish Prison Service, the Garda Síochána and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, where the costs are very high. The Department of Justice and Law Reform is also there, with the costs I presume coming from legal fees. The cost is €150 million over the two years and there was no procurement or tendering whatever.

Ms Clare McGrath

All of those Departments are collaborating with the NPS to in particular instances to put in place tender competitions for certain elements of what has been reported by the Comptroller and Auditor General. They wish to reduce the cost.

So we will see a significant reduction in 2010 for the level of spend without any competition.

Ms Clare McGrath

I am hopeful that our intervention will assist them in achieving that goal.

I wish to ask about the bizarre issue of the famous history book that has cost €340,000 to date. I know some extra archival work has apparently been done as part of that. Where does the matter stand?

Ms Clare McGrath

I thank the Deputy for the opportunity to address the issue. The Comptroller and Auditor General stated in the report that in the year in question, the Office of Public Works has expended €341,714 on what was originally commissioned as a history. Our estimates are that to the year in question we have saved €391,000.

How is that worked out?

Ms Clare McGrath

I acknowledge that at the outset, on the commissioning of the project, we could have done more extensive scoping to determine the outputs required. The Office of Public Works archive is massive and touches every parish in the country, and in parts it extends for centuries. We had not documented it. Under the 1986 National Archives Act we are obliged to index and list our archives but we have not done so. The figure for doing that work, confirmed by the National Archives as being approximately five man-years, is of the order of €226,000. That is just one element. The historian would have had to research, assess and document that element before commencing.

That documentation has taken place, and it is significant to the OPW in its work. We have had the benefit of the historian's input. When we undertake works on historic properties, we have an international obligation under the Venice Charter to document the history of the building. We sourced that externally but we used in this period the work done in this case on a number of such occasions with regard to Kevin Street, Leinster House, the Irish Coast Guard and a number of projects. That work is of the order of €100,000, which would have otherwise been expended by us.

That also gives us an ongoing saving. Records, plans and drawings for historic properties were not accessible to us because we had not indexed them, and that has now been done. The material is retrievable not just for the staff of the Office of Public Works, which is important, but externally for archaeologists, engineers, historians and students. That is the other element of the issue, as we have indexed materials in the archives from 1848 to 1936 and 1936 to 1960.

The historian in this area reviewed approximately 150,000 files, 4,000 ledgers and 70,000 plans and sketches. Some 400,000 images were photographed, all of which have now been indexed. Some 3,000 journals were investigated. That is the nature and extent of the work, which has now been done. I accept the procurement question as we should have done more extensive scoping to determine that these were the outputs required. We carried out two reviews in the course of the work which confirmed that our approach was correct, although I accept the point made by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The Deputy has asked the question and we are moving to put all this information, including the finding aids, on-line. People who have a local interest will be able to search the OPW website, and it will indicate if we have material. People can then go to the National Archives to view it. At the beginning of next year we will publish a 90,000-word book, excluding illustrations, that considers St. Stephen's Green——

The historian has written that.

Ms Clare McGrath

Yes. We will finalise the reference history of the Office of Public Works in 2011.

How many books is he working on?

Ms Clare McGrath

There was a publication in this period on major figures within the OPW. It was done a number of years ago and is a relatively small publication. He is finalising the book on St. Stephen's Green, which spans 300 years and will have at least 90,000 words, excluding illustrations. That will be published at the beginning of next year. He also has a publication regarding the Coast Guard stations but we are looking to proceed to publish a volume giving us a sense of breadth in history. We will leave it to others to extrapolate further.

One book has been published, one will be published soon and there is another volume, which is the history.

Ms Clare McGrath

It will be a final volume that may not give the depth of a full scholarly interpretation. The Office of Public Works goes back to the 1670s. In our present guise the office dates from 1831 but there was a Surveyor General and other bodies going back to the 1670s. As an organisation, it was involved in incredible socioeconomic elements of the country such as bridges, roads, schools, airports, Garda stations. It is immense.

How much more will it cost to complete the work that the historian is doing for the OPW?

Ms Clare McGrath

The historian element will conclude in 2011. The amount remaining is approximately €39,000. I have it written here but I cannot exactly remember the figure.

Is that the amount yet to be paid?

Ms Clare McGrath

Yes, which would be the 2011.

That would bring the total to approximately €380,000.

Ms Clare McGrath

I beg Deputy McGrath's pardon, there is a 2010 figure as well. Sorry, I apologise.

Just to have clarity, I am sorry for labouring the point.

Ms Clare McGrath

The figure is an approximate €80,000, but that would be for 2010 and 2011.

On top of the €340,000, therefore the total is approximately €420,000.

Ms Clare McGrath

Yes.

Would Ms McGrath apportion a value to the publications and a value to the archival work, indexing work, etc.?

Ms Clare McGrath

If I take it simplistically, €391,000 has accrued on the work done. That value excludes the publications, but it would be wrong do that because he has been working on St. Stephen's Green and the publications.

Is it embarrassing for the National Procurement Service, NPS, to in a sense be presiding over a situation like this when it is setting the policy and the guidelines for everybody else? I accept it is a legacy issue. It is going back many years. Has it been regularised now in terms of defining the terms for doing the work relating archival and indexing, and then defining the terms for the completion of the text of the publications? Has all of that been regularised?

Ms Clare McGrath

We are appointing an editorial team as well, which will include the National Archive, which will oversee the process to ensure finality. Yes, one does not wish to be here before the committee with a procurement issue. I certainly do not want to be here in regard to my own service. I accept the procurement question. However, I believe the office has obtained value from what has been done.

I am not casting any aspersions on the gentleman in question or the work he has done.

Ms Clare McGrath

I am glad of that, I thank the Deputy.

It sounds like he has done a significant amount of work. I am raising the issue of the procurement.

At the same time, how does Ms McGrath know that the archiving work was complete and accurate when it was not in his original job description?

Ms Clare McGrath

The archive material is being used weekly.

How does Ms McGrath know it was accurate?

Ms Clare McGrath

It would be fair to say that the National Archive would concur that it is relatively complete.

It is a very bland statement, that there is an 8% reduction sought. The only matter that will require focus will be the figure for the 8% reduction fee, if that is achieved. However, my question, both to the Department of Finance and Ms McGrath, is whether there has been an 8% reduction in the work being done. It seems the objective is a fee reduction 8% but has the workload also decreased? If so, why that is the case?

The €16.3 billion is for a 12-month period, but it is a little unclear whether that is for the year ending at some stage in 2009 or for 2008. If it is for the calendar year 2008, what is the figure for the calendar year 2009? May I have a 12-month breakdown, year-on-year?

It was stated that there were 21 posts not filled. Is the OPW staffing level complete?

Ms Clare McGrath

No. We have sanction to complete it.

How many staff members does the Office require?

Ms Clare McGrath

Twenty-one.

Is the OPW 21 short?

Ms Clare McGrath

Yes, from what we originally set out.

What is Ms McGrath's programme to ensure that the Office gets up to the staffing level?

Ms Clare McGrath

We are working with the Department of Finance, which has sanctioned this, to achieved this and to commence with the Public Appointments Service to advertise. Certain of them will be coming in towards the beginning of next year. I will not say that it will go to the full complement in the next short while. It will be gradual.

Would it be fair to state that at the start of the second quarter the OPW should have the majority of the posts filled?

Ms Clare McGrath

I might aspire to that but I have to comply with figures in regard to my administrative budget and the managing of overall resources within the organisation.

The Department of Finance has sanctioned the posts. I can only assume that if it has sanctioned them, the OPW can hire these people. There are almost 0.5 million people unemployed. I am sure many possess the necessary skill sets. I am eager, if Ms McGrath's agency is there to save the State funding and if the Department of Finance has sanctioned the positions, that the posts be filled.

Ms Clare McGrath

Of course, we might be looking at redeployment from other organisations as well.

On Deputy D'Arcy's question, the 2009 figure is €16.3 billion.

Is that for 2009?

Ms Clare McGrath

For the full year.

Has Ms McGrath got the 2008 figure?

Ms Clare McGrath

The 2008 figure is €15.8 billion.

Has she a projection for 2010?

Ms Clare McGrath

No, that would be done individually. The NPS does not procure that volume. Some €7 billion of that is capital.

I am aware of that.

Ms Clare McGrath

It will be up to the procurement policies of individual Departments as to whether they wish to procure.

I would have thought that the Department of Finance would have had some projections for the likely numbers for 2010.

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

Those figures were undertaken last year as part of the Estimates campaign. At the time when the Estimates for 2010 were being finalised, they were the expected outturns for 2009 figures and there is not an analogous figure for 2010 that is to hand at present.

Does Ms Hanlon have an estimate?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

It would be of the order of the same figure. The Comptroller and Auditor General, in his analysis, indicated that it is of the order of €16 billion. The expectation, in terms of where figures are going generally, is that as money is becoming tighter we would not expect figures over the short term to be heading in an upward direction, both because of reduced expenditure and increased efficiencies within existing expenditures.

We are in the month of October and the Department should have figures for the first nine months.

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

I do not have the figures with me for that, but it would be in or around the same figures we have there. It is fair to say that the level that there is for 2009 is fairly indicative of the level for 2010. It is in the same ball park.

What about the cutbacks?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

As I stated, it is in the same ball park but would be heading south of the 2009 figure.

Can Ms Hanlon get those figures for us now?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

Certainly.

We would like to have them.

Ms McGrath mentioned plant and equipment in her statement. Am I correct in stating that the local authorities are not yet on board?

Ms Clare McGrath

I will ask Mr. Martin Bourke to answer.

Mr. Martin Bourke

The position in respect of plant and equipment is that the stage of analysis and research of the market has been reached. This is an area in which the local authority sector is extremely interested, particularly in light of its involvement with that market.

Should I take that as a "No"?

Mr. Martin Bourke

Is the Deputy asking if they are not on board?

Mr. Martin Bourke

They are on board in the context of assisting us with our research. It is a "Yes" in terms of their interest in this as a category in respect of which savings could actually be levered.

However, as of today they are not on board in the context of——

Mr. Martin Bourke

There is not an active competition in place. The precursor to any competition or tendering process is the carrying out of research and the establishment of a framework. They are very much on board in assisting us with that.

Deputy Michael McGrath referred to the Garda Síochána. Am I correct in stating that the Garda authorities are not yet quite on board?

Ms Clare McGrath

Yes.

What steps are being taken to ensure that the Garda Síochána comes on board? It is clear, from the data for 2008 and 2009, that there has been little improvement. I accept that our guests are still finding their feet in this area. However, I am of the impression that if a Government agency engages in a foot-dragging exercise, our guests are not moving rapidly or strongly enough to deal with this.

Ms Clare McGrath

In no way could I say that the Garda Síochána is engaged in any such exercise. We have been involved in procuring vehicles, uniforms and other supply items for the force. The Garda authorities are seeking to achieve certain goals not just in terms of the outcome of the contract, but also in the context of the efficiencies to be obtained by their not being obliged to procure supplies because there is a central body to do this for them. The Garda authorities are very much in that space. However, I take the Deputy's point. It will be the case that, in the context of having control over procurement at local level, they will want us to show form in terms of achieving economies and efficiencies. I accept that a collaborative network will have to be developed between ourselves and public bodies that are in this space.

While it is easy to count the number of toilet rolls or toner cartridges, legal services is a good example of an area in respect of which I do not know whether genuine competition exists. I will use the local authorities as the example in this regard. It is easy to come up with a figure of X number of euro per hour in respect of consultation. However, has any analysis been carried out in respect of legal advice provided to local authorities in the past two to three years? If such an analysis has been carried out, is it possible to indicate whether the providers of such legal services have changed at any point? Is a standard service provided by either the Department of Finance or the OPW? I am of the view that a cosy arrangement exists in respect of the provision of services for which the cost is not easy to quantify. As already stated, it is easy to count the number of toner cartridges or pens. It is more difficult, however, to quantify what is provided — outside of the hourly rate charged — in the context of legal services. Has an analysis been carried out or will one be carried out?

Ms Clare McGrath

That analysis has not been done yet. We do, however, have figures within the top 30 categories for the spend on services. This encompasses professional services, which would also contemplate legal services. We have not yet zoned in on any particular one.

Has the OPW identified the number of local authorities which have not changed their providers of legal services in the past five years? There are 34 local authorities. This means that if a tendering process has been carried out in each of the past five years, there have been 150 or more opportunities to change service providers during the past five years. If changes have not occurred, then there is no competition and the local authorities in question are not obtaining value for money. In addition, companies other than those awarded the contracts are not getting the opportunity to provide their services. Effectively, therefore, local authorities and the companies which provide them with legal services are in the perfect comfort zone. Nothing is being done about this. I get the impression from our guests from the OPW and the Department of Finance this is someone else's responsibility and that it is not their job to ensure that there is competition. If I am wrong on this, I stand open to correction.

Ms Clare McGrath

There is certainly one local authority which is entering the market in this regard. Every public procurer is minded to give effect to the guidelines, procurement strategies and policies that are set down by the Department of Finance. In his report the Comptroller and Auditor General refers to those who have not done this and they need to be dealt with. People are working to give effect to the rules — they have no reason to do otherwise — under which they are charged with achieving best value for the money they have been allocated.

There are particular procurement rules that surround legal services, which do not come within the directives. In ensuring that best value is achieved — this may be described differently for individual procurers——

That is my point. It is easy to count certain things but not others.

Ms Clare McGrath

Yes, it may be. However, we will be moving towards analysing what has been happening.

However, our guests have not yet done that.

Ms Clare McGrath

We have not done that yet. If the committee is indicating that we should prioritise this matter, then we will take that away from this meeting.

I am not stating that the focus should be placed solely on legal services. That was just the example I provided. If I could offer a further example, it would not be difficult to approach the HSE and inform it that it, and its precursors, have had the same legal advisers for the past decade. There appears to be a comfortable or cosy arrangement. In other words, those in the relevant sections in various public bodies know the people with whom they are dealing in the context of obtaining legal services. Open competitions may be held but if certain companies continually win those competitions — I accept that an analysis has not been carried out in this regard — then it is obvious that the Department of Finance's policy guidelines in this area are not being adhered to. I have formed the impression, from what the Department of Finance officials have stated, that responsibility for carrying out the analysis to which I refer lies elsewhere. The Department sets out policy and expects it to be implemented.

Ms Clare McGrath

I understand the HSE is intent on putting in place a framework for the health sector in respect of this matter.

Deputy D'Arcy has again highlighted a matter of concern. In light of the challenges we are going to face in the coming weeks in the context of the budget and the deficit, I am quite surprised that, in respect of an area to which overall expenditure of €16 billion to €17 billion applies, line-by-line scrutiny of procurement practices has not been carried out or that action has not been taken to ensure that the relevant guidelines and rules are being adhered to.

I am also surprised by the statement to the effect that the cost for procurement this year will be the same as that for last year. I would have thought that our guests would have engaged in a vigorous scrutiny of the procurement area in order to achieve better practices and greater efficiencies. Reducing the cost of procurement by even 10% would lead to a saving of over €1 billion. The committee is compiling a report on procurement — which is nearing completion — and the evidence given to it today will be contemplated within the final draft. The experts to whom we have spoken have indicated that a saving of 10% would be achievable if proper practices were followed. We were provided with various examples where such practices are not being adhered to. One of these relates to the Irish Prison Service and the fact that contracts were over from €3 billion to over €100 million. Just a 10% cut in costs would bring over €1 billion in savings, which would be of great help to the Government in reaching its targets.

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

The Chairman can rest assured that the Department of Finance is at the head of the queue in the context of ensuring that all of the opportunities for achieving savings and reductions in expenditure will be fully explored and brought to Government for policy decision in the coming weeks.

That is fine but our guests are not in a position to provide information on targets for this year. Nine months of the year are gone and they are not able to inform us whether the guidelines relating to the procurement of legal services are being followed. We highlighted one example in that regard which has not been dealt with by the OPW.

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

On the use of the guidelines relating to legal services and as the Comptroller and Auditor General points out in his report, the appropriate approach to procurement in general is that the best value is obtained through competition. Where a competition is not used, Departments are specifically required to apply a rigorous internal procedure and to forward annual reports relating to this directly to the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Department also receives copies of these reports. That report has been analysed by the Comptroller and Auditor General and is the subject of the second half of the chapter being examined by the committee today. In the analysis that the Comptroller and Auditor General provided, there is very useful analysis about the types of circumstances within which exceptional procedures are invoked to procure without competition.

On how many occasions have legal services changed following a tendering process? How many local authorities has the Department of Finance assessed in the past three years to ascertain whether they undertook an open competition for legal services?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

The Department has not carried out a review of the procurement of legal services nor had it been intimated that there was such a review. What we are doing is setting central guidelines. On the expenditure reduction initiative front, not the procurement front, we had in 2009 an 8% reduction in professional fees and that applied across professions. In a sense, the level of 8%——

Is Ms Hanlon satisfied the 8% reduction in fees does not correspond to an 8% reduction in work output?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

No, there is a difference and the Deputy is right. Departments were required to make an 8% reduction in the fees that they pay for legal services. There have generally been reductions in expenditure, in the amounts Departments have available to spend and they have to identify areas and prioritise or re-prioritise their expenditures. However, the scale of fees has been reduced. Legal services is only one of the professions to which that applied. It also applies to accountancy, architecture and so on.

And the veterinary service. I get the impression that analysis has not been conducted on genuine competition in certain areas either by the Department of Finance or the OPW. I apologise if I am wrong.

We received a letter from Ms Hanlon on 12 October giving us returns for the year ended December 2008 and the year ended December 2009. During 2008, 522 contracts worth €79 million were undertaken without a competitive process while in 2009 there were 447 contracts worth €64.9 million. She outlined the Departments. Among the biggest offenders was the Irish Prison Service at €22 million, to which I referred earlier. Do those figures include contracts related to legal services?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

There is one of which I am aware, which the Chairman raised earlier in the discussion, which is the one undertaken by my own Department. It was a procurement of more than €5.5 million for a number of contracts in 2009. That related to the procurement by my Department of the services of Arthur Cox in connection with the banking stabilisation measures. It was done in 2008 under conditions of extreme urgency and has been accounted for by the Accounting Officer in returns to the Comptroller and Auditor General. The 2008 circumstance was one of extreme urgency, as envisaged by the exceptional circumstances allowed under the procurement rules, and that contract was continued in 2009. The circumstances were that the need for the services continued as part of the banking stabilisation issue and the Department and the Accounting Officer felt that it was the most appropriate way to handle the matter, given their experience.

We accept there was an emergency but in all the figures provided by Ms Hanlon in correspondence, were legal fees reflected in them? If so, where are they? How much did they amount to across the board?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

If contracts were awarded without a competitive process, they should have been coming up in those figures. The figures I supplied to the committee are the returns that each Department and office makes to the Comptroller and Auditor General and that are copied to ourselves.

When Ms Hanlon receives the total number of contracts and the value of contracts that are proceeded with without going through proper procedures from Departments, do they itemise the type of contracts and the legal contracts entered into without tendering?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

What is supplied to the Comptroller and Auditor General and copied to ourselves is a brief explanation of the nature of the contract, an explanation of the nature of the circumstances which gave rise to it being procured without competition and the cost.

At the beginning of the meeting I asked for a breakdown Department by Department.

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

What we were talking about earlier in the meeting was the procurement of legal services in general but what we are now talking about is the procurement of legal services without competition.

There are two strands to this. Can Ms Hanlon give us information on contracts entered into without proper procurement?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

We can. The Chairman said "without proper procurement". It is in line with procurement guidelines; it is just the guidelines for very exceptional cases, the instances of procurement without competition.

I will rephrase that to "without a competitive process".

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

Certainly, no problem.

Is Ms Hanlon aware of which legal firm advises the HSE?

Ms Deirdre Hanlon

No, I am not personally.

With regard to the framework for the public sector, the process is moving towards local authorities and third level. I refer to the primary and secondary school sectors because surely enormous savings could be made. I acknowledge there are differences and patron bodies are in place but the State pays a capitation grant to schools. Funding is provided by the State and boards of management are doing their best in difficult circumstances with reduced capitation grants. The Department should establish whether it is possible to introduce a national procurement process for electricity and heating supplies for primary and secondary schools. I do not know whether that is doable but it should be looked into.

I am glad a quantity surveyor from the Department is present. I would like to raise a competition issue, which was brought to my attention in the context of the construction of schools and the procurement process undertaken by the Department of Education and Skills. There was an open tender process for the emergency construction of two schools. A company was awarded the contract and it subcontracted some of the works. It became clear early in the competitive tendering process that somebody would be burnt. While the State benefited because of the original competition, one individual went out business in connection with the subcontracting of the works. Those who got burned had provided services on the site, mainly in the locality. I have raised the issue of competitive practises in the Dáil. A company that wins a contract must honour it and not engage in the subletting of works to other private companies, as to do so indicates it is not possible for it to do the job for the price quoted. While the State may benefit under the original tender, it is unfair that suppliers at the other end of the scale end up getting burned. There should be in place a clause which states that the company that wins the original contract cannot sub-let works for completion on its behalf. Where this happens, it would be clear to a quantity surveyor that the works cannot be done for the price quoted by the company concerned and thus it should be disallowed from that competitive practice. It is particularly unfair when a company awarded a State contract goes out of business and as a result suppliers get burned. I can give the information I have to the delegation after the meeting if they so wish. This happened in relation to two schools in my town. As I stated earlier, I have raised this matter in the Dáil.

I do not suppose the National Procurement Service trips lightly off the tongue in general exchange between taxpayers. Obviously, however, it is very important given the sheer scale of services and goods procured on behalf of the State. In that context, does Ms McGrath believe the establishment of the NPS was a good idea?

Perhaps Deputy Rabbitte will rephrase his question.

Does Ms McGrath believe the NPS has produced efficiencies commensurate with expectation?

Ms Clare McGrath

The precursor to the NPS was the Government Supplies Agency which dealt with central procurement for Departments. An analysis by us of certain areas of that procurement, vis-à-vis procurement in the wider public service for the same goods and services, demonstrated that there was value to be obtained from aggregating procurement.

Have the figures since borne this out?

Ms Clare McGrath

We are currently placing contracts which we believe will do this. I can accept people want progress fast but to build to that we must put in place the proper framework and structures. During the course of this year we will be placing a number of contracts and putting in place a number of frameworks which we believe will derive those benefits.

I am not entirely clear what Ms McGrath is saying. I regret I need the Ladybird guide. What autonomy is retained by the individual agencies in doing their work? Is the OPW doing no more than supervising and monitoring them and prescribing good procedure? Does it do the procuring centrally?

Ms Clare McGrath

We might in certain instances, following analysis. The example I gave relates to low risk, high volume stationery office equipment and ICT consumables. We would place those contracts. Where an Accounting Officer, locally, chooses not to spend anything on procurement in order to have savings, we might then suggest how those funds could be used. They are not mandated to do as we suggest.

What does the OPW bring to the party? Could, for example, the Department of Finance oversee the supervision guidelines?

Ms Clare McGrath

We are not supervising; we are providing operational, purchasing, education and skills guidance and putting in place frameworks to allow others to do it. We bring together in one organisation the structures that will facilitate others.

Leaving aside the 8% diktat across the board, how do we know that performance this year is likely to result in real savings for the State as compared with the situation that obtained heretofore?

Ms Clare McGrath

There are two elements to that, the first of which is the €16.3 billion in terms of costs. We are currently putting in place contracts but we will not know until later whether anything will derive from them. The second element is efficiencies in organisations. They do not now have to put in place what are complex procedures to do the procurement process. We are assisting them in obtaining efficiencies in terms of the provision of centralised purchasing and procurement.

To show that one cannot win before this committee, perhaps Ms McGrath will respond to a claim frequently made by business, namely, that we are overly punctilious in terms of observance of EU guidelines in this area and that when compared with other members states, we do ourselves down in terms of the sourcing such services and goods domestically in this economy.

Ms Clare McGrath

I acknowledge the Deputy's comment. A recent EU report states that Ireland as a country, relative to its size and place within the other economies, is excellent at ensuring it is the source of contracts in other EU jurisdictions. To confirm that, I understand that in 2009, with the assistance of Enterprise Ireland, €209 million worth of public sector contracts in other jurisdictions were won by Irish companies. The EU is saying that Irish companies are winning a lot of business relative to their size in the EU.

We are obliged to advertise our contracts, once over a particular value, in the Official Journal of the EU.

I appreciate that. Let me give Ms McGrath a tangible example. I recently met with printers who claimed that examination papers could have been printed here. They also instanced to me that other contracts, had they been broken up or in respect of which had the type of ingenuity exercised in France been exercised here, could have been done here. Is there any basis to those claims?

Ms Clare McGrath

I am not aware that any Irish firm tendered for that contract. Individual contracts are analysed by the sector concerned. We will now be doing this work on their behalf and to see how best contracts can be placed. If there are times when contracts can be broken down into lots, we are not averse to doing so as long as we remain compliant with the rules. On the suggestion that we are punctilious, I said earlier that——

I said we are overly punctilious.

I had to look it up on the Internet using my iPhone.

Ms Clare McGrath

Some 95% of projects, by value, go to Irish firms. The EU Commission reported a figure of 17%. That was by number and it accepts that 95% of contracts are awarded here. We are, through the NPS, trying to balance the demand to obtain maximum value from the euro for the taxpayer with allowing SMEs to have the greatest possible access to tender and compete. It is a matter for SMEs vis-à-vis others with whom they will compete to win a contract.

I would like to return to the question of what business is done by the OPW and in what areas it prescribes guidelines for other agencies. Let us take the example of the Garda Síochána in respect of which difficulties discussed by this committee include the mothballing of cars for almost two years, the procurement of tyres and so on. We had a number of attendant explications for what happen, which I will not regurgitate now. What has changed in terms of Garda procurement since the NPS was established?

Ms Clare McGrath

The Government Supplies Agency, which has been subsumed into the OPW, would have and continues to do the procurement for the Garda Síochána.

Does it look after all of the requirements of the Garda Síochána?

Ms Clare McGrath

Not all. Like other sectors, the Garda may have specific requirements and may have the skills and expertise or access to bring to bear to ensure the proper scoping, definition and specifications for what they require, which may not be common to other public sector organisations.

One could hardly apply that definition to tyres for cars.

Ms Clare McGrath

No. I think in that space they have had a procurement competition for cars and ——

What has changed, since the national procurement service, NPS, was established, in respect of the Garda Síochána? We are talking about tyres now.

Ms Clare McGrath

I have a note referring to the tyres. The request for tender, RFT, was published in the journal in 2009 and the competition closed in 2010. Some ten companies put in a bid and all met the pre-qualifying stage and their tenders were evaluated. These were scored against the award criteria and the bid submitted by Goodyear-Dunlop for its brand proved to be the most economically advantageous tender. Following the notification of the successful and unsuccessful bidders, in accordance with EU and national legislation, earlier in the summer, contract discussions have concluded with the successful bidder and the contract is due to commence shortly.

May I ask Ms McGrath about start-up companies, young companies or individuals selling services to the State? These seem to be required to produce three years of tax returns and so on before they can apply.

Ms Clare McGrath

Under the auspices of the Department of Finance, Circular 10/10 was issued earlier this year to all public procurement agencies and that requirement is no longer the case, until a company gets through to the short-listing stage or is successful. At that stage the company must produce the documentation. This requirement was changed in order to ease the administrative burden that might attach to small to medium enterprises and start-up companies. I mentioned the various elements of that earlier.

We will not go back over that. Like Deputy McGrath, I do not want to reflect in any way on the saga of the history of the OPW, but however good this historian is at archival work, he is a bit slow at the writing, is he not? He is at it since 2002.

Ms Clare McGrath

The person concerned is not present and I would not like to be unfair. He has done exceptional work. His brief changed. I accept we changed that and asked him to do the archival work. The reason we undertook the review was to determine this was appropriate.

I heard Ms McGrath say all that to Deputy D'Arcy, but it is a concern in view of the fact that the OPW is to provide guidelines for procurement. When it took on the recruitment of a historian to write a history, it ended up giving him other duties. That does not inspire confidence, does it?

Ms Clare McGrath

I accept that the procurement on this does not conform at the outset with the scoping and definition. We ——

Is a historian nowadays the same as a professional archivist?

Ms Clare McGrath

I would not like to say that. The archival work has been done for us and the people at the National Archives are satisfied that what has been produced meets our requirement.

How come the OPW was not doing this work down the years?

Ms Clare McGrath

I take the point. However, I am satisfied that anything we are preparing to hand over since then is complete and that we are including the necessary indexation and listing of our materials for the National Archives.

To be clear, will we get a history of the OPW at the end of this process?

Ms Clare McGrath

From what I said earlier, the history ——

I know we will get the history of St. Stephen's Green and various other places, but will we get a history of the OPW?

Ms Clare McGrath

I accept now that a history of the OPW would be a multi volume work and that what we will have will be the facility to move into that space, but that we may let that be for others.

Let me have another go at this. According to the note we have from the Comptroller and Auditor General, the historian was recruited to write a history of the OPW, which, for all of the reasons Ms McGrath has explained, seems to be a meritorious enterprise. Is Ms McGrath now saying that at the end, whenever that is, we will have a volume of what might be a multi volume exercise to be completed subsequently or will we have a history of the OPW?

Ms Clare McGrath

No. We will have information leading to the direct extracts of the history of the OPW, but not in the sense of a scholarly work interpreting it from 1670.

Therefore, at the end of all this we will not have a history of the OPW.

Ms Clare McGrath

We will have elements relating to the work of the OPW.

I understand that, but the answer to the question is that although a person was recruited to write a history of the OPW, we will not have a history of it in as far as the man or woman on the street understands a history.

Ms Clare McGrath

We will have a published catalogue of all the documentation of the OPW.

Is that the same as a history of the OPW?

Ms Clare McGrath

It goes some way towards being the history of the OPW, yes.

To refresh our memories, what was the cost of the original tender?

Ms Clare McGrath

The original tender was approximately €78,000.

That has increased now to €340,000.

Ms Clare McGrath

I accept that what we started to procure in 2002 became something different. That was due to incorrect scoping of what was being sought. What we have got is to the value today of €391,000, work we would otherwise have had to do.

It is a misnomer to say that what has been undertaken is a history of the OPW. That was wrongly described ab initio.

Ms Clare McGrath

I accept that when we undertook the review of this project, it should have been redefined when the time was up. Under procurement, I would have been allowed to revise and look at the reasons for doing it. We should have redefined it then to being what it has actually produced.

Should it also have been put back out to tender? I assume it should.

Ms Clare McGrath

That would not have been possible given the work that was being done. Circular 40/2002 would apply in that regard.

We have enough on this. Are there any further questions? I will ask Mr. Buckley to wrap up.

Mr. John Buckley

The report we are dealing with today looks at the initial steps the OPW is taking to reduce the cost of public procurement and to base procurement on strategic planning and identify instances of non-competitive procurement. I am conscious that the Committee of Public Accounts is finalising a report on public procurement. From a wider perspective, we tend to think of procurement as direct procurement of goods and services, but it also comprises major capital investment projects, procurement under partnership arrangements and outsourcing of services like those raised in recent discussions here on training and driver testing. Procurement type arrangements are not always contract based. Some are grant funded, predominantly in the health sector. Much of this de facto procurement is based on grants. Many of our recent audit reports suggest there is a need in that instance to have more explicit service level agreements in those areas. The message I am trying to get across is that procurement is a much wider concept than the direct procurement of goods and services that we have been discussing. More generally, recent audit reports suggest that organisations need to ensure that procurement that is effected is in line with their own internal as well as the external rules. We have had a number of instances where this did not occur. I refer to their procurement in innovative areas such as technology, in particular, in areas such as REACH, where there have been a lot of failures. PPARS was mentioned. These need to be based on pilot studies which are designed to prove the concept before funds are committed to a major project. Small agencies involved in once-off capital projects and which are not accustomed to dealing with such projects may need to have access to some form of gateway process which perhaps the Office of Public Works could eventually provide. This gateway process could also be designed to provide a built-in challenge to what is being done. The OPW could assist them by providing expertise they do not have. In the case of the Prison Service we found a need to ensure that framework agreements do not last longer than they should and that access from the market and from contractors is not limited for too long a period. This is another lesson that has come out of our wider work.

Picking up on one other issue, the new partnership models need to be examined again. We have noticed that the affordability limit should be disclosed. There is a case for considering whether it should be disclosed to bidders. We will be dealing with this point when we examine the convention centre where one bid was twice the other bid, a case of €400 million as against €200 million. There needs to be some guidance for those submitting a bid to inform them of the size, shape and scope of project the State requires. In another such partnership arrangement we came to the conclusion that there is a need to think about how competitive tension can be maintained once the preferred tender has been selected because once a tender is accepted there are negotiations and the price moves again. It is a case of how to maintain that competitive tension to avoid the upward cost drift that can occur.

I raise these points just to emphasise that when the committee is finalising its report on public procurement, it needs to range over a wider set of issues than just the Prison Service and what we have heard today. I could ramble on but I will leave it at that for now.

I thank the witnesses. Is chapter eight is agreed? Agreed.

The subject for next week's meeting is the bank stabilisation measures and the reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General for 2008 and 2009.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 2.05 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 21 October 2010.
Barr
Roinn