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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 15 Sep 2011

2009 Accounts of the Social Insurance Fund

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue (Secretary General, Department of Social Protection) called and examined.

Before we begin I remind Members and witnesses to turn off mobile telephones because they interfere with the transmission and sound quality of the recording.

I wish to advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House nor an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the provision in Standing Order 158 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Ms Niamh O'Donoghue, Secretary General of the Department of Social Protection. I understand this is her first appearance before the committee and wish her well on her recent appointment. I invite her now to introduce her officials.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

Thank you. On my right is Ms Siobhán Lawlor, principal officer in our accounts branch, and on her right is Mr. Brian Ó Raghallaigh, assistant secretary responsible for finance issues and the Department's lead liaison with the IMF-EU. On my left is Ms Anne Vaughan, deputy secretary with responsibility for control issues and policy and operations relating to people of working age, and on her left is Mr. Niall Barry, assistant secretary with responsibility for ICT, client identity services, client eligibility services and the General Register Office.

We also have a representative from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform

Mr. John Conlon

I am principal officer with responsibility for the social protection Vote.

I ask Mr. Buckley to introduce the Vote. The full text of chapters 31 to 35 inclusive can be found in the annuial report of the Comptroller and Auditor General or on the website of the Comptroller and Auditor General at www.audgen.gov.ie.

Mr. John Buckley

Approximately €21 billion was spent on social welfare in 2009. Most of this expenditure was administered through the Department of Social Protection, with some minor schemes being funded through other Departments. Within the Department of Social Protection, some €9.8 billion of expenditure was met from the Social Insurance Fund. The accounts of both the Vote and the fund have received clear certificates. However, there were two reservations reported in the audit opinions.

In the case of voted moneys, there is, based on historic fraud and error surveys, a material level of expenditure in excess of entitlement, which we estimated to be in the range of 2.4% to 4.4% of total expenditure. Chapter 22 of the report deals with this issue in more detail. In the case of the fund, the Department, despite commissioning an accounting module designed to produce reconciliations of its financial transactions with those processed by its bankers, required workarounds to deliver standard form reconciliations at year end. In addition, there was an absence of ongoing reconciliation in standard format during the course of the year.

Much of the focus of the chapters is on control activity which identifies cases where payments have been made in excess of entitlement. A distinction must be made between those cases the Department follows up for recovery and those it counts as an indicator of performance. The relationship between overpayments and savings is not a straightforward one, in that some overpayments do not arise out of control work and are not counted as savings while, on the other hand, some savings are based only on the avoidance of future recourse to the welfare system. In this context and to put numbers on it, from a performance perspective the Department claimed savings in approximately 68,300 cases and, from a follow-up point of view, recorded overpayments for recovery in 42,500 cases. With regard to recovery performance, in recent years approximately 9% to 13% of the recorded debt has been recovered. In the most recent year, approximately 46% of persons with debts listed for recovery were making payments by way of deduction from current entitlements or through cash payments.

The report contains the results of reviews in two areas of the Department's administration - non-contributory State pensions and one-parent family payments. In the case of non-contributory pensions, more than 1,500 pensioners that had estates or approximately one quarter of all cases terminated in the year due to the death of a pensioner were reviewed. One fifth of the cases reviewed resulted in the recording of overpayments, an average of €27,800 per case. This suggests a considerable level of payment in excess of entitlement for the non-contributory pension scheme. Because of the delay in recovery in these cases and the fact that it can be difficult to enforce full recovery in all cases in the context of probate proceedings, we suggested that a periodic re-declaration system for non-contributory pensions might be a useful control initiative.

The review of one-parent family cases noted that the scheme cost approximately €1.1 billion in 2009 and the planned transfer of administration from a central office in Sligo to local offices had occurred in 63% of the 90,000 cases. The chapter notes that a 2007 fraud and error survey found that the level of payment in excess of entitlement is approximately 7.3%. In other words, approximately one quarter of all claimants got more than the amount to which they were entitled. Electronic payments were found to give rise to increased risk. One office noted that some of these payments were being transmitted ultimately to foreign banks. This has led to the restriction of this type of payment method in new cases. The audit also found that substantiating documentation was not available in certain cases. Evidence in these cases is based on the recording of data on computer systems and certification by inspectors of having seen the original documents. Details of so-called liable relatives and the associated maintenance arrangements had been sent to a central recovery unit in 39% of the cases examined in one office, even though the details were to hand in two thirds of those cases. Approximately half of the identified relatives were making maintenance payments.

Overall, arising out of the audit work conducted, we concluded that the Department needs to conduct more frequent fraud and error surveys to get a fix on scheme risk and adjust its controls accordingly. Second, we stated that the Department needed to adjust its reconciliation module to automate the production of standard form bank reconciliations. These reconciliations are necessary to prove the accuracy and completeness of accounting records. In this respect, I acknowledge that the Department has put certain measures in place since early 2011. Their effectiveness will be reviewed in the course of upcoming audits. Third, we suggested that the Department consider a re-declaration process for means-tested pensions to confirm entitlement in an area where at least 5% of deceased pensioners turn out to be overpaid. I acknowledge that the Department has moved to develop a self-declaration review process.

I wish to point out that a distinction needs to be made between the legal position that overpayments are amounts which a deciding officer so classifies and the practical administrative necessity of determining the underlying level of irregular payment. My view is that properly structured fraud and error surveys based on random sampling are the best means of gauging the extent of payments in excess of entitlement at any particular time. I welcome the fact that the Department has drawn up a medium-term programme for fraud and error surveys across all major schemes. This is important because, in reality, it is only through follow-up surveys that the Department is positioned to show that the underlying level of irregularity has altered by virtue of control actions taken as a result of the first surveys done.

I invite Ms O'Donoghue to make her opening statement.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

My comments today address the expenditure incurred and accountable under Vote 38 and the account of the social insurance fund. In addressing the committee, I would like to remind the committee of the extraordinary environment which evolved in 2009, before commenting on the Department's financial accounts and the chapters included in the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report. I trust the committee has received the updated information on the recommendations made in these chapters and I will not repeat that information here.

By any standards, 2009 was an extraordinary year for the State's income support systems. The Government's programme of social welfare expenditure increased to almost €20.5 billion, an increase of more than 15.3% over the previous year. The levels of business activity during 2009 tell their own story in reflecting the very significant challenges posed for the Department. In particular, almost 1.4 million people were in receipt of a weekly social welfare payment which was paid in respect of just under 2.1 million beneficiaries.

During the course of 2009, some 626,000 new claims were registered for jobseekers' payments, and a further 493,000 people signed off from these payments, meaning that the churn in the live register was of the order of 1.12 million cases which had to be dealt with, a figure that is unsurpassed in the history of the Department. Despite the valiant efforts of staff, the number of claims pending in this area rose to an all time high of 78,500, or some 19% of the claim load, which at that stage stood at 467,000. To put this in context, as a result of the ongoing introduction of efficiencies and significant evidence of increased productivity since 2009, the number of jobseekers with claims pending has dropped to 35,000 or 7% of the claim load, which is still at an extraordinary high level of 526,000 as at end of August this year. While these average figures portray a reasonable story at macro level, I am very aware that for many individuals and families who were affected by unemployment, many of whom had never signed on before in their lives, the speed of response of the Department was considered to be less than satisfactory.

Some public commentary during that time focused on delays in processing payments for customers and the abilities of the Department in respect of the utilisation of modern technology. The Department's primary responsibility is to ensure that we deliver income support services on a weekly and monthly basis to our customers across a wide variety of schemes with varying eligibility requirements. The Department processes approximately 85 million payment transactions per year. Many of the schemes operated by the Department are supported by legacy stand-alone systems. The modernisation of systems must be developed with appropriate management of risk to the continuity of this core business.

Equally, in our development efforts, we are also charged with the objective of integrating our systems so that we can achieve a total customer view of our clients, with the objective of providing better service and ensuring better controls. This means that, of necessity, we must always balance the pace of our drive for modernisation with the need to ensure continued delivery of core services. I am happy to say that because of a significant intensification of effort in this area, very significant progress has been made in this regard over the past two years.

We have built on a new technical infrastructure which has already provided significant value to both clients and the Department in our pensions and child benefits area, and has considerably enhanced our control efforts. We have also introduced significant technology assisted improvements in our local offices. Within the coming months an additional number of our major schemes, including disability allowance and carers allowance, will be operated on this new IT platform and over the course of the next 12 months we will be rolling out significant advances in our local offices in support of linking jobseekers' payments and the activation agenda in a meaningful fashion. As this occurs, our clients and indeed committee members will see significant progress.

Since the current crisis arose, the staff of the Department have been making extraordinary efforts to cope with a diverse and increasing claim load, while also trying to deal sensitively with the customers presenting in our local offices or contacting us in other ways. They are deserving of great commendation for the work which has been done, while at the same time recognising that considerable improvement is still required.

I am aware that there is much public concern and media comment about potential for fraud in regard to social welfare expenditure. This concern is reflected in the very significant increase in the levels of suspected fraud reported to the Department in the past three years. During 2008 and 2009, in the face of the huge number of claims being received, we had no option but to devote significant resources at inspector level to the examination of claim entitlement at application stage. Preventing fraudulent or erroneous claims from going into payment in the first instance is a significant part of our overall control strategy. This meant, of necessity, that there was a reduction in focus on claim review during this period.

Having made significant progress in enhancing claim processing, we started to re-balance our activity in the claims review area in 2010 and 2011, with good results from the perspective of review activity and savings achieved. We are firmly of the view that effective customer service by the Department requires both speedy delivery of entitlements to eligible customers and a firm programme of tackling those who seek to claim payments to which they are not entitled. A programme of control seminars has recently been rolled out to staff involved in investigative and control activities in the Department, with a view to reinforcing the need for a robust control environment and the opportunities that now arise with the integration of the community welfare service and FÁS employment and community employment staff. Following a programme for Government commitment in this area, the Minister announced a new fraud initiative last Monday and I understand that copies have been sent to committee members.

I will turn now to address specifically the Chapters 32 to 35 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report. In the main, the recommendations made have been accepted and progress has been made in implementation. I would point out, however, that the report also contains detailed comments on my views about the purpose and intent of fraud and error surveys, and these are germane to the evidence base used to inform the Comptroller and Auditor General's conclusions on the regularity of social welfare payments. The fundamental functions of the fraud and error surveys undertaken are to identify risk in specific schemes, target resources towards the collation of evidence of fraud and inform improvements in the internal and external controls to be applied to welfare schemes. These objectives serve to mitigate exposure to incorrect payments and receipt of irregular payments. I am of the view, as set out in comments included in the relevant chapter, that the application of levels of fraud and error found in surveys concluded as far back as 2004 cannot reasonably be applied to current expenditure to measure welfare payment irregularity.

The Department's view is that payments can only be considered to be irregular when it can be shown - indeed proven - that a payment was received fraudulently or is conclusively shown to be paid in error by reason of customer or departmental error. Welfare payments must be made in accordance with social welfare legislation. This includes the requirement of the deciding officer to decide to stop a payment from a current date when evidence is not available to set up an overpayment in respect of a prior period.

The customer has the right to appeal an adverse decision. The Department must also recognise, process and support an underlying entitlement to any other scheme despite being disallowed for the one in question. To date, fraud and error surveys do not recognise these additional factors, which all contribute to determine the regularity or not of a welfare payment that is paid for the purpose for which the Oireachtas intended.

I must stress that the results of these fraud and error surveys are historic. They are findings which reflect the Department's control strategy and economic climate of the time. The Department has developed and progressed in the use of technology to match and share information where appropriate. Process improvements have been applied to remove the risk of error, which may arise through incorrect calculation in its simplest form, or automating checks through systematic practices. As a consequence, the levels of risk highlighted in fraud and error surveys that were estimated a number of years ago cannot be assumed to remain valid today in reflecting current levels of risk. Having said all that, however, I reiterate that the Department agrees with the Comptroller and Auditor General's comments on the usefulness of the fraud and error survey programme and has broadly accepted his recommendations on having a programme approach to the conduct of such surveys. The Department plans to consult further with his office in this regard, as outlined in the update.

Finally, I would like to make a brief reference to the very significant work programme currently being implemented by the Department, one in which I am sure the members of the committee will be interested. The objective is to develop a radically new approach to supporting people at risk of long-term unemployment into sustainable jobs and training. As part of this, the structure and operations of the Department are being reconfigured to integrate the employment and community employment services of FÁS and the community welfare service of the HSE. These two groups add an additional 2,000 staff to the Department.

The establishment of the national employment and entitlement service and the reconfiguration and integration of employment and benefits services is a key commitment under the terms of the memorandum of understanding with the EU-IMF-ECB. Its establishment was provided for in the programme for Government and builds on previous decisions by the Government. This transformation programme is bigger than any of our previous change programmes. We are moving into a more proactive model of income support and activation, which is clearly focused on progressing people to social and economic participation.

Progress has been good. The rural social scheme and community services programme transferred into the Department in mid-2010. Responsibility for the redundancy and insolvency scheme transferred to the Department at the start of the year and a new claim processing system for these claims will go live at the end of the month. The transfer of the community welfare service in October 2011 and the FÁS functions on 1 January 2011 is at an advanced stage.

These are difficult times for clients, staff and taxpayers. I would like to reassure the committee that every effort is being made to ensure best use of moneys provided by the Government and taxpayers to deliver good services promptly to legitimate beneficiaries, which means efficient payments, activation services and control of abuse.

Thank you. I now call on Deputy Ferris.

Before I begin, I join the Chairman in welcoming the witnesses here today and to thank them for the work they are carrying out in the Department of Social Protection. We all recognise that the Department has been at the coalface in dealing with the increased numbers of people who are struggling through these economic times. It is important to acknowledge that. We must also acknowledge the hard and innovative work the Minister, Deputy Joan Burton, is carrying out in the Department. I appreciate what she is doing.

There are two important issues I wish to raise, tackling the shadow economy and social welfare fraud and how the Department conducts its day-to-day business. The first of these, the shadow economy, probably receives more media coverage than anything else, but the other areas are equally important. There are a number of people who come to my clinics on a weekly basis to tell me about serious problems they have with the Department of Social Protection, and I would like to outline some of those. I am concerned that there is no streamlined approach to various benefits, including jobseeker's allowance, back to education allowance, internships and illness benefit. All Deputies here will know people who have been on illness benefit but are cut off automatically after a couple of years. One person came to me recently who was crippled with arthritis. She had been a contract cleaner, and when she appealed she was told to find another job. This person cannot do anything. In cases that I know of, people have applied for jobseeker's allowance and got onto FÁS courses, but when the new internship scheme was introduced, they were not allowed to apply because they were on FÁS courses. There are people who apply for the back to education allowance but do not qualify because they have been on jobseeker's allowance for less than a year.

I would understand if the money was coming from two separate Departments but it is not. Why are we stopping people from educating themselves when they have been on jobseeker's allowance for less than 12 months, instead of switching them automatically to the back to education allowance? Why is there so much paperwork to be done when people apply for the first time, as thousands are doing now, for jobseeker's allowance? They are told that if they are desperate to feed their families, as many of them are, they should see a community welfare officer, but even though the community welfare officer may be next door or across the road, they are asked for the same paperwork again. I understand that the community welfare officers and FÁS will partake in the scheme but this cannot happen fast enough. Are there plans to introduce more flexibility to the qualifying criteria for the schemes I have outlined, including a facility for people to transfer to the back to education allowance even when they have been on jobseeker's allowance for less than 12 months?

The vast majority of people claiming social welfare benefits are in genuine need. As far as I know, the figures for social welfare fraud are quite low, and I know the Department is doing a lot to deal with it. However, we must treat this issue with sensitivity. The vast majority of people claiming social welfare benefits are genuinely in need of help from the Department of Social Protection, and we must be sensitive towards those who are claiming incorrectly for one reason or another, whether it is through fraud or through a mistake on their own part or that of the Department. What is the extent of welfare fraud? Can the witnesses provide statistics on the number of claimants to whom payments were discontinued due to suspected fraud? What issues are being uncovered by inspectors? How many employers are facing prosecution for employing people who are also on welfare?

I would like answers to these two questions but I ask the witnesses to concentrate on the lack of flexibility within the Department.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

I will see what I can do to answer the questions raised by the Deputy. I should point out, however, that although I will happily explain the rationale behind the different schemes, their limitations and how they operate, changes to the schemes as they exist are policy matters and, as I am sure the Chairman will appreciate, I am not permitted to comment on these.

The Deputy mentioned the lack of a streamlined approach. There was a Government decision to confine illness benefit to two years' entitlement. There is an issue with this. The impact began to be seen in January of this year and we have seen a number of people falling off illness benefit from that point. There are a number of different options for people in that category. If it is the case that the underlying illness is of such severity that the person cannot work, there is the possibility of claiming invalidity pension if the person has a contributions history. On a means-tested basis, there is disability allowance. The contingency scheme, if the person does not qualify for any of the other schemes, is the supplementary welfare allowance scheme. Unfortunately, there will be people whose entitlement to claim under the insurance-related illness benefit scheme will end and who may not have an entitlement to claim under another scheme unless they meet one of the criteria or contingencies for which the schemes currently cater.

The Deputy mentioned the back to education allowance and access to the internship scheme. These programmes were put in place to tackle long-term participation on the live register and support the people who are unemployed the longest with a view to giving them the greatest assistance in regaining employment. There have been adjustments to the waiting times required to access those schemes. However, there is a balance to be struck between giving an entitlement to everybody and targeting our limited resources at those who are in greatest need. There have been changes in the qualifying conditions, but it is a policy matter for the Government to decide at what point it considers it appropriate to make those entitlements available. The Deputy will appreciate that I am not at liberty to comment on the particular policy.

With regard to the Deputy's questions on social welfare fraud, I will attempt to answer the hardest question first, that is, the percentage of welfare claims that are fraudulent. Unfortunately, there is no single answer to that question. The Deputy will appreciate that the Department operates about 50 different schemes and that the cohorts participating in these schemes differ in terms of their economic circumstances, age profile, demographic profile and environment. There are some schemes, in our experience, that are at greater risk of social welfare fraud than others. Notwithstanding the point made by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his introduction about the level of fraud with regard to non-contributory pensions, the view of the Department is that in the main, pension-type schemes have very low risks of fraud. Those with higher risks of fraud include jobseeker's assistance, potentially the one-parent family payment, and, potentially, disability or illness-related payments.

The types of fraud that emerge from the investigations and inspections we carry out fall under a number of headings. One of these is simultaneous working and claiming benefits beyond the level that might be allowed for within the scheme or beyond the rationale of the scheme. Another serious area of fraud is cohabitation among recipients of the one-parent family payment. Non-declaration of means is another issue, which brings us back to the observations of the Comptroller and Auditor General about non-contributory State pensions. Then there is the issue of residence; for example, some people who are required to be in this country in order to remain eligible for a scheme are found to be no longer in the country. Those are the main issues that give rise to fraud.

I have some statistics before me. We carried out about 350,000 reviews across all schemes to July this year, including about 1,000 employer inspections. In 2010, we brought 209 prosecutions, 209 criminal cases, nine civil cases and five employer cases and we also referred 132 cases to the Garda in respect of social welfare fraud.

I appreciate the response but I am keen to go back over a couple of things. I understand that the deputation cannot comment on policy and I appreciate that. However I call on them to bear in mind that there are now many people who, for the first time, are making applications and are seeking information on what they are entitled to because of the economic crisis but they have no clue how to proceed. Many of them are finding it difficult to ascertain what they are entitled to. They have no wish to be in queues. I am speaking as a Deputy on behalf of them. They believe that they are regarded as a PPS number and not as people. I do not lay any blame on the staff but this is what many people who come to me maintain. I realise the staff provide a great service for the most part and that they are under pressure.

Ms O'Donoghue mentioned what someone on illness benefit can apply for after two years. In the case to which I referred an application was made for invalidity and the person was informed that the application was refused because she could do something else. Clearly, this lady could not do something else.

I thank the deputation for the answers on the black economy but I wish to put some further questions. What is the Department learning from the prosecutions or cases referred to the Chief State Solicitor's office? What risk analysis has been undertaken on the various schemes? For example, what are the fraud and error surveys showing up? Are there specific sectors, for example, construction, taxis or catering, being targeted by the Department? What are the results from targeting particular sectors?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

What was not raised as a question but what has been mentioned several times by the committee now is the difficulty of applying and the engagement with the Department. I assure the committee that the staff of the Department is totally concerned about ensuring that people entitled to services of the Department access those services. However, in providing those services we have a duty to balance three different streams of activity, that is, between making the payment in the first instance, providing activation resources where they are appropriate and ensuring we adequately control or risk-manage the applications made to us.

We have made significant advances in the way we engage with customers who are making first-time claims to us, especially with jobseekers' claims. An appointment-based process underpins it. This means the queues that were experienced in the past are no longer a feature of the system. We are trialling an online claims process in one local office at the moment and based on that we will determine how it could potentially be rolled out to jobseekers' payments. However, the committee should bear in mind that, having regard to the three streams of activity, we must always physically see someone who is applying to assure ourselves about all of their circumstances and to verify the information given to us.

There was a question about learning from prosecutions. To bring a prosecution we are required to go through a serious level of investigation and this requires considerable resources. We must risk-manage our approach, manage our resources and target prosecutions based on targeting those people we believe are either repeat offenders or who commit fraud beyond a certain level. We operate a matrix whereby when we examine cases that we consider bringing to prosecution we examine several variables, apply weighting and then determine whether a case fits the circumstances. This is done on a case-by-case basis.

We appreciate and document the types of circumstances that give rise to particular types of fraud. This informs the type of controls and the follow up we put in place. The Comptroller and Auditor General referred to the fraud and error surveys that we carry out. In an ideal scenario we would carry out fraud and error surveys far more frequently than we have been in a position to do heretofore but they are particularly resource intensive and require a detailed examination of a caseload by an inspector. We are now examining different ways of tackling this issue. As the Comptroller and Auditor General recognised in his opening comments, the Department has outlined a medium-term plan for fraud and error surveys whereby we will carry out two surveys per year and in some instances on the basis of using a smaller sample from some of our smaller schemes we may go beyond that. We will review this as we move through the programme to ensure the frequency is useful in terms of the information it gives.

What we have learned from these surveys directly informs our control efforts and highlights some of the sectors to which Deputy Ferris referred. There is no doubt that certain sectors have a greater propensity or the possibility for fraud whether cash-based sectors or sectors amenable to casual employment in which people can move in and out and where there are smaller rather than larger entities. We target all of these. The fraud initiative document which the committee received earlier this week detailed some of the activity in respect of some of the sectors. We have also outlined some plans to target other sectors in the coming years. We do not do this in isolation. We tend to do it in co-operation with other agencies whether with the Revenue, the National Employment Rights Authority, NERA, or Customs and Excise. This focus on sectoral activity tends to be carried out in a rather preplanned way.

Like Deputy Ferris, I welcome the delegation. No other Department is under as much pressure as the Department of Social Protection given what has taken place in recent years. I compliment the staff on the job they are doing in the vast majority of cases. I understand they are at the coal-face on a daily basis but we must remember that the people they are facing have no wish to be there in the vast majority of cases and are at a stage in their lives that they probably never thought they would be. We should be mindful of the stress they are under.

I have some questions about the schemes and how they have been rolled out. The back to school allowance is topical. As of today, how many claims are outstanding for those seeking the back-to-school allowance?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

I will give Deputy Connaughton an answer to his question but I should explain that the Department automated the payment of back to school clothing and footwear allowance this year for the vast majority of families from whom we expected to receive claims. This meant payments to 127,000 households in respect of 250,000 children were fully automated and these were paid in June. There is a window for applications from 30 June to 30 September. It is fair to say that the number of applications significantly surpassed even our conservative estimates for what might be realised. As of the end of last week some 80,000 claims in addition to the 127,000 processed were received. In the early stages of that application window we were getting claims of the order of 3,000 per day. That has now gone down significantly. It went down to 1,500 at the beginning of August and now it is down to somewhere less than 1,000 per day. They are being processed at approximately 1,250 plus per day.

One complicating factor involves duplicate claims and claims with incomplete information on applications. We must return them to get more information from people. We are also getting a significant number of claims from people who do not meet the eligibility requirement for the scheme. The position with the 80,000 claims is that 43,500 claims have been processed; 32,000 have been paid; 5,300 have been refused; 5,200 have been returned because there was insufficient information; and the remaining 600 were duplicate claims. That leaves approximately 36,000 claims to be decided. As I said, we are deciding them at a rate of about 1,250 a day. I hope that answers the Deputy's question.

When does Ms O'Donoghue think the backlog of the remaining claimants will be cleared?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

We have put additional resources into the area and have increased resources on two occasions since. We are very conscious of the fact that schools have recommenced and a number of the applications we received only reached us since then. We are keeping Deputies up to speed on progress. It is very difficult to say when the backlog will be cleared as we are still receiving claims. The closing date is 30 September. We will have a clearer picture at that stage and I hope the figures involved will comprise a small residual amount.

I imagine the Department has seen an increase in applications over the past number of years. What can be done this September to make sure the same problem does not happen next summer? Unfortunately, the figures will probably increase or stay the same. Based on the response from the Department, I understand it has a very clear understanding of the level of hurt and frustration out there at the moment. We cannot stress the point too much. People want the backlog reduced as quickly as possible.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

We will immediately review the scheme, how we operated and how we processed it. We were somewhat naive in thinking that we offered a much better service this year by automating 127,000 claims which were paid directly in June, in advance of when people expected to receive payments last year. It is an historic feature of the scheme. We did not receive claims into September this year alone and have delays in processing. We will have to examine awareness of the scheme and the criteria involved in eligibility for it.

We will also have to determine what other solutions we can bring to bear in terms of issuing payments more quickly. We want to deliver the scheme to those who are eligible for it as quickly as possible, given that there is a very short window between submitting an application and children going back to school.

I thank Ms O'Donoghue. If someone visited a social welfare office today and wanted to claim jobseeker's allowance or a benefit, how long does an application take on average?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

There is a difference between the two schemes. If somebody is in receipt of jobseeker's benefit, he or she applies for it on the basis of a contribution history. We have made a significant investment. We have a website which has won many awards, in terms of trying to provide clear information to people on what they are entitled to and what they might access. We work with the Citizens Information Board to try to make sure that information is written in clear language and people understand what it is they have to do.

If a person arrives at an office and indicates to us that he or she wants to make an application for a particular scheme, he or she could download the form and complete it in advance. He or she will have made an appointment and, provided everything is in order, the application will be processed on the day of the appointment or very close to it.

The process is a little more complicated for jobseeker's assistance because it involves a means assessment. The length of time to process the claim is directly related to the amount of information a person brings with him or her and our ability to verify that as quickly as possible. In terms of average times across all of the different structures of schemes, the rate for jobseeker's assistance is approximately four weeks and two weeks for jobseeker's benefit.

That is an average for all cases. The anecdotal evidence I have is that the process takes a lot longer.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

It is an average but very significant numbers of claims would be made on the day of an appointment. There might be a delay between presentation in an office and an appointment of up to a week. Some cases are more complicated. I referred to jobseeker's benefit in terms of straightforward cases but some people might have mixed insurance histories or their insurance records might not be up to date and have to be checked out.

If someone has made an application and there is an issue with it which they appeal, on average how long does the appeals process take?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

The story is not as good for appeals, but significant progress has been made in the course of this year because we have put additional resources into the appeals office. The number of appeals coming for consideration across all scheme areas has mushroomed over the past number of years from an annual caseload of between 15,000 to 16,000 to several multiples of that. The difficulty with appeals is that a number of different factors and stages in the process have to take place.

When somebody makes an appeal in the first instance, it is referred back to the original scheme area to determine whether, in the event of new information being provided, a revised decision can be made without an appeal process having to take place. That accounts for a significant number of cases that have been dealt with. Such cases are changed by a revised decision because more information has been supplied in the appeal.

If the information and the file comes from the office to indicate there is no change to the decision a number of different factors have to be taken into account. If a medical-based scheme is involved, a medical review process might have to kick in and there is an opportunity for a second assessment before an appeal is heard. There are two ways in which appeals can be heard by appeals officers, summary appeal or oral hearing. The combination of factors that have to be taken into account will determine the length of time leading to an appeal.

It is fair to say that appeal waiting times are significant at the moment. It is one area on which we are working hard. We have allocated additional resources, streamlined processes and tried to move as many cases as possible to summary appeal rather than oral consideration. We have located appeals officers around the country to a greater extent to facilitate a more frequent hearing of appeals on a geographically convenient basis to our client base. It is something we are keeping under significant review.

On average, how long is the appeals process?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

The average time to process an appeal dealt with by summary decision in 2010 was 27.5 weeks but where an oral hearing was required it took 45.5 weeks. When we report on the figures for 2011 they will be significantly better because of the measures we have put in place.

They are numbers on a page but for someone waiting for an appeal it involves a huge amount of stress and frustration. I understand the Department is dealing with more applications with the same number of staff. However, a concerted effort will have to be made to reduce the figures as quickly as possible.

Are people in receipt of supplementary welfare, who are still waiting for a decision and whose applications are refused, told they will not receive jobseeker's benefit or allowance? Is it costing the Department a lot of money? It has paid a person a certain amount of money and has found he or she is not entitled to it.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

There are a number of different elements to the Deputy's question. He can be assured that we are taking every measure possible to reduce the time people have to wait for an appeals process to be brought to a conclusion. However, even with the best will in the world, because of the complicating factors I mentioned and issues of natural justice in terms of affording people an opportunity for an oral hearing, an appeals process will take longer than an ordinary claims process.

I do not have information on the number of appeals made by people in receipt of supplementary welfare allowance who subsequently lost their appeals to a primary payment but I will find the information and give it to the Deputy.

This is another added benefit of the integration of the community welfare service with the Department, in so far as there is greater sharing of information and greater joint operations. We have seen that whereas because of deficiencies in our claim processing times, a large number of people would have had to have recourse to basic payments from SWA pending a decision by the Department regarding jobseeker's allowance. I understand that number has halved in recent years because we have streamlined our processes for taking and dealing with claims in the first instance. There is much more co-operation on the ground and a lot more communication between the community welfare service and the staff in the local office as regards the status of these kind of claims that fall between the two.

I have a question about what was said earlier about money going into bank accounts in Europe or elsewhere. What action has been taken once the Department discovers a claim that should not have been made? What is the level of recourse available to the Department to reclaim the money or it is a case that nothing can be done?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

Absolutely not. I wish to be absolutely clear that if an overpayment is found and registered against an individual, the Department will take every step to recover that overpayment. Some of the difficulties for us regarding this recovery is that such a proportion of those people remain on a social welfare payment. We are limited by legislation in terms of the amount that can be recovered from people who remain on a welfare payment. Given that the level of supplementary welfare allowance was at the same level as basic payments, there was no facility for us to recoup money unless with the agreement of the individual. There is now a differentiation of €2 between supplementary welfare allowance and the basic rate of payment in the primary schemes. Therefore, in many instances the recovery rate is €2 per week. It is one of the issues we have highlighted in the control plan and we would be looking to change that legislation to allow us, again, on a case-by-case basis, the possibility of recouping more. We are aware of some international experience where the facility exists to go beyond a very minimal level of recoupment.

I refer as an example to a person flying back to this country to draw claims and then returning to wherever they come from. What power is available to the Department to pursue such an individual if he or she is resident in another country?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

We can stop the payment and we can seek to recover. EU agreements are in place regarding the payment of social welfare arrangements or insurance-based payments across EU nations. Equally, arrangements are in place to allow for recouping moneys or debts and we will be looking to use those in the case of individuals no longer resident in Ireland. If such an individual is resident in Ireland and is in the system, then we will do our best to try to recoup, whether at the current level or pending legislative approval, at a higher level where we regard this as appropriate. If such an individual is no longer in the welfare system, we will look at civil prosecution and if he or she is in employment, we will be looking at working with the other agencies of the State to see how the money can be recouped through those means.

I have a final question. The Department deals with those currently unemployed. What consultation or interlinking exists between the Department of Social Protection and other Departments, considering that the Department of Social Protection has more information about the unemployed than other Departments dealing with job creation? Is there a future role for such co-operation?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

I touched on this aspect when talking about the transformation programme, the setting up of the national employment and entitlements service which brings together databases from the FÁS employment services, from the HSE and from the Department. This gives us a wealth of information. Much data-sharing is happening between our Department and the Revenue Commissioners and other State organisations with regard to tracking activity. In my view, the national employment and entitlements service brings us into a new dimension of activity regarding employment, as opposed to unemployment. We will be looking to take advantage of any opportunities to make available the information we hold, whether to the Department of Education and Science and the training facilities, or to the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. We will be working closely with those Departments and their agencies and using the information and analysis of our database to help inform their policy considerations as well.

Following from Deputy Connaughton's question, what is the value of the debt which has been written off by the Department over the past three years?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

I do not have that figure to hand but I will seek to provide that information in a few moments.

As the Secretary General searches for that information, I will call Deputy O'Donnell.

I have a question about the issue of fraud. How many officers in the special investigation unit are assigned to investigate social welfare fraud? The genuine recipient of social welfare payment may experience delays in payment. The public perception is that a significant number of applications are being automatically appealed. The Secretary General referred to a reduction. I ask her to comment on the increase in the rate of appeals over the past 12 months. The majority of people in receipt of social welfare payments are genuine claimants. Up to now the community welfare officers were funded by the Department but they were based in health centres. These officers possess a wealth of information and in my view, they should be involved in investigation work. They know what is happening on the ground. The Secretary General stated that fewer people are going through the local community welfare officer office in order to claim supplementary welfare allowance on their primary claim. I ask for an indication of the numbers in the past 12 months. As public representatives we have noticed that we are referring a lot of people to the community welfare officer.

I refer to the attitude of the Department of Social Protection to the self-employed, a group which does not qualify for jobseeker's benefit. What procedures are in place for the community welfare officers to adjudicate on claimants who are self-employed? They do not have an automatic entitlement because they do not qualify for jobseeker's benefit and there are genuine cases. I ask the Secretary General to elaborate on how the Department proposes to deal with social welfare fraud. The procedures to tackle fraud are important. Are departmental officers based at airports and ports? The genuine applicants need to be processed more speedily and where social welfare fraud exists, it must be rooted out.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

I can now give the Chairman the figures about the write-off of debt in the first instance for the years 2008 and 2009. These figures are regarding over-payment debts. In 2009, some €11.57 million was written off, compared with a write-off of €4.86 million in 2008.

Why is there such a difference in the figures?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

A specific exercise was undertaken in 2009 to review the debt balance that existed on our over-payments system and to discover how much of this was recoverable, for instance, how much was attached to people who were deceased or who were patently in a situation whereby the Department would be unable to recover the debt. This is what informed the figure.

With regard to the prosecution of fraud cases, how many cases are taken by the Department? It has written off €11.5 million - that is an overall figure. How many fraud cases has the Department taken to court in recent years? It acts as a deterrent when people see cases being taken. How active is the Department in taking those cases?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

There is a range of activity that we take in relation to people who are found to have been fraudulent.

Specifically----

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

I did mention this. In 2010, we took 209 criminal cases, nine civil cases and five employer-related cases. We also referred 132 cases to the Garda in relation to identity fraud.

I call Deputy O'Donnell again.

The Secretary General may continue.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

Deputy O'Donnell asked about the number of staff we had working in relation to targeting fraud. We have 89 inspectors in our special investigations unit. This unit is primarily focused on fraud and its primary function is tackling fraud. In addition, we have an inspectorate of about 400 inspectors who have a general inspectorate role. As I said in my opening statement, part of our strategy at the moment is about refocusing their effort on claim review, which potentially then will give rise to greater investigation of high-risk cases and greater referral into the SIU remit. Due to deficiencies in our claim processing, that inspectorate was very engaged in claim processing in 2008 and 2009. In terms of-----

How many of the 89 are involved in mainstream work rather than investigative work?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

Sorry, Deputy, the 89 are completely and totally dedicated-----

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

The 400 are general inspectorate, who are involved in looking at claims that are made where means assessments are required, for example, or whether it is a case review of claims that are currently in payment. If one likes, the balance of their activity in the last couple of years - in 2008 and 2009 - would have been focused on the claim initiation stage. What we have been doing is refocusing their activity into the claims review stage and we will be pursuing that.

What I wish to get at here is very direct. How many people within the Department in the past year were directly engaged in dealing with social welfare fraud? I am talking about calling to places and putting in place controls so that applications of genuine claimants are processed in a more efficient way. I ask the Secretary General to distinguish between what the 89 do and what the 400 do.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

The 89 are fully engaged in what we call serious investigation. That would be specifically in targeting high-risk cases or cases where we feel there is a high risk, whether it is the sectoral activity I discussed with Deputy Anne Ferris earlier, whether it be in terms of targeting working particular groups even in terms of where people pick up their payments, the multi-agency vehicle checks that we feature in association with Revenue, whether it be the NERA operations in relation to looking at employments and visiting employers. That is 89 full time in, what I would consider, serious investigation work.

I would say that everybody involved in processing claims has a control dimension to their work. In other words, we have to ensure that people who are making claims to the Department meet the eligibility criteria. To the best of our ability we try to establish that before we put a claim in payment. The 400 general inspectors I spoke of have a role certainly in relation to employers inspections and have a role in relation to claim review to ensure that somebody continues to meet the criteria, but they also have a role in relation to whether it is verifying the information that somebody gives when they make a claim to us in the first instance.

I am quite happy with all that general stuff but I want to be specific. The general public has a perception that fraud is happening in certain areas and that requires the Department of Social Protection allocating specific resources to that area. Is there someone within the Department who has sole responsibility for fraud? Is there someone at a senior level in the Department dealing with it?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

One of the things we did in the course of 2010 was actually to nationalise our SIU activities under a principal officer so rather than having a regional dispersed unit, it is now a national unit with staff in all regions. It is headed by a principal officer reporting to an assistant secretary who has responsibility for control - both SIU and control. Obviously it is part of the responsibility of my colleague, Ms Anne Vaughan, as deputy secretary. It is an extremely important part of our activity as evidenced by the fact that we went on a road show with all staff involved in control and investigative work over the course of the past number of weeks to reinforce the kind of robust approach we want taken in relation to social welfare fraud.

Does the Department have officers in airports and ports? There is a perception that they represent a source of claims that may not be valid.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

We have officers working in the GNIB. We have officers working in CAB and we have joint investigation and joint operations with Revenue. Part of the focus of those operations would include the airports and ports.

Are there officers specifically in the ports investigating this for the Department?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

We do not have people located in the airport unless there is a specific operation project taking place out there.

There are not general controls. There are straightforward areas, which, if covered, would result in people having more confidence that the area of social welfare fraud was being addressed. Does the Department have any links with Revenue's system?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

We do not have that level. Data protection would not allow us to have that level, but we have very significant data exchanges with Revenue. We also have a very high-level operational group, which consists of members of the management boards of both organisations that meet on a regular basis to discuss opportunities and plan projects, and ensure that we are actually sharing information, intelligence and an understanding in terms of activities that actually are of interest to both organisations.

When will the CWOs come under the remit of the Department? I believe there are approximately 600 of them.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

There are about 800 CWOs. The entire staff, including support staff, is about 1,100. They are on secondment to the Department from 1 January this year. Our expectation is that they will be fully integrated into the Department from 1 October. The Deputy referred to the kind of experience, and the presence and intelligence of CWOs. We are genuinely very excited at the idea of being able to tap into that resource and to work with that resource in terms of control activity and activation activity. So we see a huge win for the Department in terms of having the people with the experience and information they have at our disposal.

Will the number of staff involved in investigations increase?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

We have established ambitious control targets for ourselves for next year. We certainly are looking within the Department to automate as much - if I could say - routine processing as we possibly can with a view to freeing up resources. Certainly we have identified the control agenda as a very significant piece that we need to give emphasis to, but at the same time we need also to build the activation agenda and to give resources to that. As I said at some stage, it is very much about balancing the three areas of our activity and trying to make sure they remain in balance.

Is the Secretary General confident the Department has sufficient personnel involved in the area of social welfare fraud?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

We will be keeping that under review but the numbers we have and the kinds of operations that we can undertake are also a function of the legislative powers that we have. The kinds of ways in which we focus our activity will be determined by the level of risk that we perceived there and the presence of other agencies and our ability to get information from those other agencies as well as being there ourselves. There are a number of different variables that we will take into account.

Is the Department of the view that it is tackling social welfare fraud in an efficient way?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

There is always room for improvement in that area. We take advice from, listen to and interact with our colleagues from a number of other countries with a view to achieving best practice and learning. People who are intent on defrauding the social welfare system will always do so. Regardless of what rigours one puts in place, there will always be such an element. What we want to ensure is that we have the capacity to follow up on everything we believe we should be following up. That is continually informed by the dynamic of our ongoing investigation, the fraud and error surveys, the intelligence we receive from other agencies and our presence on the ground.

The Deputy stated that there is a perception about the number of claims that potentially go to appeal. I wish, if I may, to provide some figures which give the lie to that comment. In 2010, we registered 2.5 million new claims across all schemes in the Department. I do not have a figure for the number of appeals made in 2010. However, in 2009, when 2.2 million claims were registered, some 32,432 appeals were made.

Does Ms O'Donoghue have an up-to-date figure for 2011?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

I beg the Deputy's pardon, I am looking at too many pieces of paper. In 2010, some 32,432 new appeals were received. That represents an increase of 25% on the number received in 2009.

Is there a figure available for the number of appeals registered to date in 2011?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

Not yet.

I listened to Ms O'Donoghue's comments regarding policy. I accept that there are constraints but in effect she is, after the Minister, the key policymaker when it comes to social welfare legislation. Those present at these meetings are also key policymakers. That is what we do in the Oireachtas. In the context of policy, Ms O'Donoghue referred in her opening statement to the Department's view on various matters. We should not fool ourselves. She is absolutely key when it comes to policy and to every item of legislation relating to the Department and the regulation to which this gives rise. That is the case.

I accept that constraints exist but what I will try to do is impart my experience in respect of what I am obliged to deal with on the ground and then ask her what is the experience of the social welfare officers within the Department. Perhaps she can provide us with a flavour of that experience. I wish to specify one particular group of people, namely, the self-employed. The example I refer to in this regard is that of an individual whose spouse is earning approximately €400 per week, who is self-employed - such individuals form a particular class within the social welfare system - and who applies for and is refused jobseeker's allowance. Many of the people in this situation have massive debts, they have mortgages to pay and a large number of them have run out of savings. As far as financial liability is concerned, these people are the worst off in this country. The new poor in Ireland are self-employed people. Many of them, from carpenters to junior doctors, have the skill sets we require but they are leaving the system entirely and emigrating.

As it stands, the social welfare system does not cater for these people. I have dealt with some individuals who have paid social insurance contributions for 35 or 40 years. When, for the first time, they ask for assistance from the State, they are shown the door. The system is not set up to act as a safety net for these people who have, after all, made payments into it. There has been a failure in this regard and there is a need to rebalance matters in the context of what the State provides for those who have worked all their lives and paid social insurance contributions. These individuals have created jobs during the past 20 years - they are the entrepreneurs and the "can-do" people. The system of social protection is failing these people badly.

These people come to my office or they deal with social welfare officers. The experience relating to the latter interaction is communicated up the line to Ms O'Donoghue via principal officers and assistant secretaries general and it is also brought to her attention by Deputies, Ministers, etc. That is how policy is formulated. I am going to ask Ms O'Donoghue whether she is of the view that the headline rates of social welfare should be cut. As already stated, I understand there are constraints which apply. However, I am obliged to relate to her what is happening and to highlight the kind of hardship people within the social welfare system are enduring and the lack of action being taken in respect of them. Ms O'Donoghue needs to know that but my guess is that she already does. I do not expect her to provide a response on the kind of policy the Department either has under review or is going to adopt in this regard. At the very least, however, she might provide information on the experience of social welfare officers when dealing with self-employed people in particular.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

Regarding the overarching issue the Deputy referred to, I wish to clarify that my role is to provide policy advice to the Minister. It is the role of the Minister and elected Members to determine policy. In the context of the self-employed, the Minister has expressed her concerns regarding some of the situations that have come to notice in the past number of years. This matter relates back to interaction, to the rates of payment of PRSI and the kind of benefits that are obtainable. It comes into very sharp focus for people in respect of accessing short-term benefits under an insurance scheme as opposed to long-term benefits such as pension rights, which are catered for.

The self-employed can apply for jobseeker's allowance. We experienced issues and there was considerable angst about what would be taken into account in the context of determining earnings from self-employment for the purposes of assessing whether people will qualify. The Department reacted, in a very pragmatic way, to concerns that had been expressed and issued clarifications to inspectors to the effect that simply because a person had a particular level of income last year, and, given that economic circumstances had changed, one could not presume that their level of expected income would be the same this year. There are circumstances where that can certainly be taken into account. Jobseeker's allowance is a means-assessed scheme. In the context of considering individual applicants and their spouses, there are limitations in respect of spousal income which must be taken into account.

The jobseeker's allowance rate for a couple is less than €320 per week. In other words, a couple with an income of €400 per week would not qualify for either jobseeker's allowance or supplementary welfare allowance.

My point is that the €400 per week to which Ms O'Donoghue refers is being wiped out by debt. The reality is that these people are burdened by massive debt. I accept that in some instances mistakes were made but the financial burden under which they find themselves is wiping our their incomes.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

What I am saying is that in accordance with the rules of the scheme, they do not qualify.

I understand that.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

As already stated, the Minister has expressed her concern. A commission to examine social welfare and taxation issues was established earlier this year. That is one of the areas which potentially might be considered by the commission with a view to examining the impact and providing advice.

Fair enough. These people have lost their jobs and are leaving the country in droves. They cannot even obtain retraining, or the back to education allowance. In some cases, they are prohibited from obtaining places on work placement programmes. The latter are State-sponsored training programmes. The people who are losing their jobs in droves are the very class of people within the social welfare system who are deprived of getting retraining. It is absurd. That must be corrected by the commission and within the Department. The people who are prepared to work and who have created jobs and wealth in this country cannot even get retrained by the State after paying into a social insurance fund. The Secretary General cannot comment on policy but I have spoken to my colleagues about this and the policymakers need to address this policy within the Department. A massive number of people with skill sets are leaving the country. I left in the 1980s and eight or nine close friends in secondary school also left, but only three of us came back. That is the trend we face - a generation leaving who will not return. The State is not doing a great deal in some cases to keep them in the country.

I have a second question. Waterford suffered another massive jobs loss recently with the closure of TalkTalk's operation there. Can one of the officials advise the status of the Department's interaction with the employees of that company and with the other Departments dealing with Skillnets and what system it has put in place to provide for those workers in Waterford?

Ms. Niamh O’Donoghue

I can advise the Deputy that the morning after the announcement made by TalkTalk the Department made contact with its HR department and, in the days immediately, following representatives from the Department and FÁS met the employer with a view to ensuring the setting up of a process to engage with individual employees as quickly as possible. We have set up a series of information sessions which are taking place this week and to which all employees are being invited. Staff representatives from the Department, the community welfare service, MABS and FÁS are attending to give those information sessions. Given the large number of staff, there will be a series of sessions. We will not be able to talk to 455 employees as a group. We are putting in place a particular process to streamline the way in which applications for unemployment or jobseeker's benefit can be received and processed. We will deal with them as a group rather than have each employee having to make his or her way through the system on his or her own. Unfortunately, it is an approach we have had a good deal of experience of with a number of large redundancies in recent years but it is one that has worked well and resulted in positive outcomes for people in terms of that interaction.

I thank the Secretary General for her presentation. Like other colleagues, I extend the very best wishes to her in her demanding role.

I want to focus on the social welfare fraud element. I have many questions and observations about various poverty traps and anomalies in the Department but I will leave those for a discussion with the Minister.

Some €21 billion a year is being allocated by the Dáil to the Department and by the very nature of social welfare fraud taking place, the money is not being spent on that for which we in the Dáil allocated it. I want to explore that through a few questions. One is the existence of PPS numbers and the fact that significantly more PPS numbers exist than the number of people who live in the country. It is easy to understand why politicians, the media and, most important, the taxpayers of Ireland are extremely concerned. Can the Secretary General advise how many PPS numbers are in existence in this country and how that number compares to the size of the population? An element of the disparity is related to the PPS numbers of deceased people not being deleted. How linked is the Department of Social Protection to other State agencies in that regard?

What lessons have been learned in the Department in regard to how the new public service identity card, announced by the Minister, will be rolled out compared to how the PPS numbers were rolled out?

Ms. Niamh O’Donoghue

In terms of the number of PPSNs on our database, the number is about 7.5 million and I quickly move to say that in itself is not a problem. It is not a match with the population currently resident in Ireland nor is it intended to be a match. The PPS number is a unique reference number for dealing with Government Departments and public bodies. Apart from it being used in the context of the social welfare system, the PPS number would be used in the context of employment and the payment of taxes. The 7.4 million records is the entire number of PPS numbers that have issued since 1979. It includes anybody who has died since 1979, anybody who has been resident in the State and has subsequently left the jurisdiction and anybody who may not have been resident in the State and who has benefited from, for instance, an Irish estate. I will explain that because it might seem strange. The PPSN is attached to contributions history for people working in the country. For example, during the economic good times many people came to work in Ireland and many people continue to come here to work on work permits who then leave and go elsewhere. Their contribution history must be retained for the purposes of determining their pension entitlements, particularly at EU level, because regard is had to pensionable employment in all states in terms of reckoning pension entitlements. In terms of the people who have died, their number is retained in regard to tracking estate information.

There are issues at the margins in regard to the data we have. We are engaged in an ongoing process of cleaning up that data. We talked earlier about the number of referrals for identity fraud. Some very significant cases have been profiled in the media in recent months in terms of the abuse of PPS numbers. It is a very small number of cases and the disparity between population size and the figure of 7.5 million should not of itself be a cause of concern.

In regard to the linkage with other agencies, the General Register Office, which is the State's record keeper of births, deaths and marriages, comes under the aegis of my Department. Therefore, we have full and automatic access to that information. This is one of the issues that has upped our game very considerably in control terms because we have automatic access to birth and death information. That has allowed us to reduce the level of overpayments in some schemes, even in terms of pension arrangements and things like that.

In terms of other agencies to which we link data, we have significant data exchanges with the Revenue Commissioners. We also have data exchanges with the education authorities, Private Residential Tenancies Board, the prisons authorities and the Probate Office. Through our client identity services, we support somewhere in the order of 80 State organisations in terms of validating identity and information and answering queries about identity or information.

The public service card is a project for which we commenced building the infrastructure in 2009 when we got the go-ahead for it - apologies, I thank Mr. Niall Barry for advising that we got that in early 2010. We started building the infrastructure and we are piloting the capturing of the data that will be required to put on the public service card in three centres at present. At the end of that pilot project we will be looking at rolling out the registration process across our network.

It will take some time because of the need for us to be extraordinarily careful about the registration process to assure to the best extent possible that we are capturing a correct identity when a person presents to us. The card is light years ahead of any identity form we have used previously in the Department. It contains many security features, notably a photograph and signature, that would cause alert if there were any attempts to tamper with it. The value of the card in terms of validating identity means we must be extraordinarily careful about how we issue it. We are being cautious. I make no apology for that. In the coming year we will look to roll it out in an increased volume but the roll-out of the new card to all of our customer base will be based on a multi-annual programme.

When we talk in politics and wider circles about paying out social welfare to people who do not live within the jurisdiction, there is often a focus on other European countries and perhaps Eastern Europe. The then Minister for Social Protection in 2009, Mary Hanafin, pointed to a cross-Border problem. To come back to population versus claims, she pointed out that there were more people claiming social welfare in Border towns than the total population recorded in those Border towns in the 2006 census. That is a startling fact for us to hear. Could Ms O'Donoghue clarify whether the then Minister was correct and if she was what action the Department has taken to stop cross-Border welfare fraud? Is it fair to say it exists?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

A number of issues arise. The committee previously engaged with the Minister and my predecessor in this area. In fairness to the Minister, she was making a general point and used an example to illustrate it.

On the specific town that became the focus of that report, the comparison between the population size of that town and the client base of the local social welfare office is not an appropriate comparison because the social welfare office services a much broader catchment area. There was not a particular issue with the client base of that local office.

In terms of looking at cross-Border fraud, I would point to a number of different issues. First, we have reorganised our regional boundaries within the Department to create a region that spans the entire Border to ensure we build expertise and share it with people who operate on the ground in that region. We changed our instructions on claims we receive where the client or customer has a previous address or employment in Northern Ireland. Now there is a different focus in terms of investigating and validating their entitlement in those circumstances.

The third prong we introduced is a multi-agency vehicle check that we predominantly focus on Border areas. In tandem with the Garda or customs authorities, we stop people coming to and going from local social welfare offices on signing days. That has been useful from a number of perspectives in terms of it acting as a deterrent and tracking and identifying people who are potentially gaining something to which they are not entitled.

On 20 July the Minister informed an Oireachtas committee that she was studying a system used in Australia referred to as bank scanning whereby the bank accounts of social welfare recipients could be monitored to see if there happens to be pools of cash in them. Has the Department advanced the exploration of that idea and is it planned to roll it out in this country?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

One of the things that had been signalled in the fraud initiative is that the Department wishes to look at changing some of the legislation under which we operate and, in terms of the pursuit of the control agenda, extending the powers available to us and bringing us into sectors in which we do not currently operate, and sharing information with other agencies which we are not currently able to access. That approach will the considered in the context of framing new legislation.

Many colleagues referred to the fact that the Department operates at the coalface. It is one of the Departments that operates in every single townland across the country. The cases we come across in our clinics are probably similar to those departmental staff come across in social welfare offices. What training and supports have been offered to staff who like ourselves are probably dealing with extremely difficult circumstances and are meeting people under extraordinary financial pressures, including mental health pressures? In every walk of life one hears various stories. There are always people who go above and beyond the call of duty and those who will let down the system. I would like to get a sense of the supports offered to staff by the Department to provide them with the set of skills they need in the current economic recession.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

There are two aspects to that. The Department has a well matured training unit and training policy on supporting staff. We run all sorts of courses from business to personal support courses. There is no doubt that when we are under increased pressure in terms of activity freeing up people to take on those training exercises becomes more difficult. Nevertheless, I have a deep interest in making sure we continue to resource and support staff. The change in focus of the Department's activities and the creation of the national employment and entitlements service mean there is a real opportunity for us to look at the spectrum of activity in which our staff will be expected to engage and to make sure they have the appropriate skills, training and confidence in their ability to take on that. We are carrying out a review of the training function at the moment to look at not alone where the training is delivered, but whether we can deliver it in a different way that might make it easier for people to attend training courses or to be released or to use technology when that is appropriate. We have had some good experience in that space but we are also looking at the idea of developing modular training programmes, building on the good experience we have had in our inspector training, for example, building case management skills within the Department and leveraging some of the skills and training experience of our colleagues in FÁS and the HSE. It is an open and active topic at the moment. It is incredibly important.

I thank the witnesses for their contributions so far. I have three questions on the strategy, Department of Social Protection, Fraud Initiative 2011-2013, which has just been published. I read it in some detail. It is a very good document. Overall the strategy is good. It touches on many of the points raised by colleagues. I wish to zone in on three figures contained in the strategy document that relate to work already done in trying to determine the level of missed payments that is taking place either due to fraud or error, both of which can trigger the issue.

My first question relates to a theme on which others have commented, namely, the nature of non-residency, where people who are not resident in the country are claiming payments and in some cases are not entitled to those payments. An amazing statistic is quoted on page 11 of the document relating to work completed to date. The special investigation on which Deputy O'Donnell commented indicated that thus far a total of 2,862 persons had home visits and were interviewed about their claims status. Out of those visits 308 claims were terminated, which is well in excess of 10% of the total visited. A saving accrued of €3.24 million. That is a saving of approximately €10,000 per claim. I would appreciate Ms O'Donoghue's comments on the issue in terms of the level of fraud that has been detected, the savings accrued by the taxpayer and what more can be done in that regard.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

I thank Deputy Donohoe for his comments on the document. One of the things I would like to stress about the particular project mentioned is that, as the Deputy indicated, it was a special investigations unit exercise. It was done in a targeted way and therefore the fact that the level of fraud detected among that group was so high cannot be taken as being representative of the population in general, or anything like it. This was a group where other risk based factors would have influenced their selection to be part of the cohort to be targeted by that group. In a sense, whether that be a mixture of local intelligence or in the mixture in terms of presence of claiming activity or whatever, that allowed us to form a group and target them for a specific home visit. It is high but I hope it gives some confidence that when we have information we will act on it in a way that delivers consequences.

In response to that and before I ask my second question, I should stress that means the other 90% of people were claiming their entitlements in the proper way, which is a point worth emphasising.

My second question relates to the information on the fraud involving the one parent family scheme. Page 19 of the report outlines a review project conducted in March 2011 in regard to a fraud plan for an area. A total of 270 one parent cases were reviewed and out of that number 67 were terminated, which is just under one quarter. The point I would stress is that the people who have been defrauded the most are the other three quarters who are depending on those payments and are very vulnerable at times. Nonetheless, that is an extremely high statistic and I want Ms O'Donoghue's reaction to the level of it and whether she believes that is reflective of a broader issue in regard to that payment.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

Again, I would make the point again that it was a targeted group where we had suspicions and considered that there was the distinct possibility that these people were fraudulently benefiting from the scheme. I do not believe the level of fraud represented in the report is indicative of the cohort or the entire claim base of one parent family payment recipients, by a long shot.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

No. We have a fraud and error survey under way in regard to that scheme and hopefully at some future date I will be able to give the Deputy more definitive information in regard to a random sample that has been considered for that purpose.

A point I would stress is that the report refers to fraud and error surveys that have taken place on other social welfare payments which indicate that in regard to between 1% and 5% of the payments there might be a difficulty as to how the payment is being made. I reacted to the 25% figure because it is so high. What I want to stress, and many other people have done this, is that the people getting those payments need them and the people who are defrauding them are a minority, but I am struck by that figure being so high. Even taking account of Ms O'Donoghue's response, which is fair, that the Department picked a cohort of people or a group regarding which there might have been concerns, it is still a very high figure.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

There are issues around the scheme in general anyway. It is not just a control issue about that particular scheme. It is a group about which there has been legislative change to allow for us to engage with that group in regard to activation in a more meaningful way than, say, the passive conditionality that had previously attached to the scheme. There are control issues and issues that we must respond to and deal with but we also need to be looking at supporting people in that circumstance in a different way.

Of course. My third question concerns the target of fraud for next year, which is €625 million. I understand that to date the Department has saved nearly €345 million in payments, which is a gigantic figure. Could we get to a point where a figure like €625 million might not be achievable because, to borrow an unfortunate phrase that may not be appropriate in this case, a lot of low hanging fruit could be cut down? If the Department gets to next year and it is starting over again, and I am struck by the feasibility of that target, is that something Ms O'Donoghue has confidence about delivering, given the amount of money already saved this year?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

It is an ambitious target but we need to have ambitious targets at which to aim. To avoid any confusion, the €625 million is about controlled savings which will arise when we have reviewed a case and decided that either the payments need to be reduced or ceased, in other words, the savings in terms of expenditure that would otherwise have been incurred had the person not been reviewed. There is a multiplier that is used and the Comptroller and Auditor General, in fairness, goes into detail about that in his report. Depending on whether the particular scheme is a short-term or long-term one, the multiplier used can be in the range of anything from 30 weeks to 130 weeks, and that is based on experience of how long claims will have remained in payment if there is not an intervention to control that. It is ambitious. It certainly puts us to the pin of our collar to try to do that but we would certainly hope that it will be achievable. It is expenditure over a period but obviously represents a real impact for the Exchequer as well.

I will conclude by making a minor observation regarding our use of language. I hate the term "activation" because in my experience the vast majority of people who are unemployed are anything but inactive. They are desperately trying to continue to be active and find some place to work. They frequently have energy levels that put me to shame. We might reflect on the use of such language. I am aware of the text book it comes from, Labour Market Activation Policies, but it is a bit Orwellian. Ms O'Donoghue does not have to respond to that.

I, too, wish Ms O'Donoghue the very best in her post, which undoubtedly will be challenging. As we are on the subject of the use of language, I have a problem with targets set for uncovering fraud. The target has to be that there is no fraudulent payment and that there is no error on the part of the Department, but I am having a difficulty conceptually accommodating the notion of Ms O'Donoghue saying we will put ourselves to the pin of our collar to root out this €625 million in fraud next year. I find that bizarre, to be honest. That is not a defence in respect of anybody who is drawing down one cent to which they are not entitled. Will Ms O'Donoghue indicate where the €625 million figure comes from and how it has been calculated? What does the special investigative unit cost? If the Department has staff dedicated to these activities, there is a cost associated with that. Could Ms O'Donoghue share that information with the committee?

I refer again to page 19 of the report, particularly in respect of the one parent family payment project. I do not believe it was intentional on the part of whoever penned this Department of Social Protection fraud initiative document to cast that particular cohort of claimants in a particularly poor light. However, the document does that. I would like Ms O'Donoghue to reiterate for the committee, if she can, that the figures reflected in the report are not representative of the broad base of claimants in that particular category. I raise that particularly with Ms O'Donoghue because when the talk gets going about fraud in the broad public discourse, there are two headline targets, first, the people on the dole, as it is called, and, second, single mothers in particular and those people parenting alone. Those are very unhelpful and inaccurate stereotypes. Could Ms O'Donoghue comment on that?

Page 424 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General deals with the contributory pension scheme. In the midst of references to overpayments, be they fraudulent or the result of error on the part of the Department, there is a reference to the underpayment of some claimants. Could Ms O'Donoghue give us some information on that? I raise this matter because, as other Deputies will know, I frequently come across in my work a wide cohort of people who have not had any engagement with the welfare system at any stage in their lives and who do not know their way around it. They have no concept as to what they are entitled to, precisely. Very often, they are not encouraged in their local welfare offices to establish their precise entitlements. Could we be given some information on that?

Page 426 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General refers to the jobseeker's allowance. Suspected fraud was identified in 3% of the cases examined, claimant error in 8.6% of the cases, and departmental error in 4.1% of cases. Could Ms O'Donoghue comment on the complexity of the work the Department undertakes in respect of overpayments? It is not simply a matter of seeking out the fraudulent claimants. In Ms O'Donoghue's initial statements, she made very helpful comments on her efforts to integrate IT and other elements in respect of departmental practices. Will she say a little more about that?

Let us consider the other pieces of work outlined, including the fraud and error survey plan. May 2011 was the period for considering one-parent family payments and September 2011 was the period pertaining to the jobseeker's benefit. What is the progress on these and at what point will data be arising from the surveys?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

There were a number of questions and I will try to deal with them all. With regard to the costs of the special investigation unit, I can certainly send the Deputy the precise cost. A ballpark figure would be less than €10 million per year in terms of the dedicated unit of 89 people.

I take the Deputy's point on the targets and on its being distasteful to talk about them; we should be looking for a rate of zero in terms of fraud and error. One of the things the targets allow us to do is to recognise the value of the work they have done in particular areas, whether it be by claim review or otherwise, and in terms of the results and outcomes of that review. It has a number of different functions. That does not mean one likes it any more. However, it is a measure for us in terms of work that is actually undertaken in regard to the claim review activity. It is very helpful for us to be able to measure that year on year.

The Deputy mentioned lone parents-----

I am sorry to cut across Ms O'Donoghue. We will agree to differ on the use of the term "target". However, how does she arrive at the figure of €625 million? How is it computed?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

It is an exact figure in so far as we must report on it but it is informed by our experience of activity we have engaged in previously. It is informed by our increased capacity to look at matters more efficiently or comprehensively than we would have done previously. It is also informed very significantly by the knowledge and intelligence available to the people who run and manage the schemes in terms of their feeling as to what might be appropriate, or in terms of a body of caseload to be reviewed and the potential for savings that might yield. There are a number of different factors feeding into it. It is not just a matter of sticking a finger into the air and thinking of the target. There is a base behind it that takes into account all the streams of information, knowledge, experience and intelligence.

Does it, therefore, tally with the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General for 2009? It strikes me that it is a larger figure and that it does not tally with experience.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

There are two different things going on. The control activity refers to reviews of claims that are purposely carried out. That caseload can be targeted and spread out depending on the nature of the scheme and the sectoral projects that are occurring, for example. Fraud and error surveys are carried out on a very statistically random sample so they would not necessarily be the same targets that would be the targets for control activity when one looks at the population in receipt of a particular benefit or the population at any given moment. The level of fraud, being a third factor, is such that some of the reviews will uncover fraud and some will uncover error, be it client error or departmental error. Similarly, some fraud and error surveys will uncover fraud and others will uncover error. Those cases must be considered right to the end, bearing in mind the kinds of qualifications I have mentioned.

We are not exactly looking at comparable figures if putting one against the other. Certainly, the view of the Comptroller and Auditor General is that if we were in a position to conduct more fraud and error surveys on a more frequent basis, it would allow us to have a consistent benchmark to consider. I agree but it is subject to the resource issue we face. It is a question of balancing it with all our other activities, including ongoing control and review activities that will have different results.

That leads me to the point made about the State pensions and people who had their payments increased. That could happen in a number of ways. I suspect that, in most cases, it happened because the means available to the people in question had changed. In other words, their disposable means had probably deteriorated and the compensating means-assessed payment had not increased. It was only when we became aware of the fact that the people's means had diminished that we were able to rectify the payment. The new process that is being put in place - the self-declaration, which is referred to in the update - should, I hope, address that in so far as we will be capturing that information on a more regular basis and be able to adjust payments to people if they are entitled to more than what they are being paid currently. We are certainly happy to make sure that gets rectified.

With regard to fraud and error surveys, the Deputy made reference to jobseeker's benefit. It will be towards the end of this year, October or November, before we will have clear indicators in this regard. A number of ongoing fraud and error surveys are about to come to an end or are about to start this year. We are actually trying to address some of the deficiencies related to time lags that would have been highlighted to us previously in terms of the conduct of fraud and error surveys.

The Deputy's final point was on the profiling of lone parents within the report. We certainly had no intention of highlighting any particular group. If one looks at all the examples stated in the report, one will note we focus on all the different client groups. Therefore, there is no attempt to try to stigmatise or focus solely on lone parents in terms of the project mentioned. On the Deputy's question, I will certainly repeat what I said earlier: these were projects targeted at people in respect of whom we had suspicions or intelligence, or in respect of whom we had sufficient evidence to allow us to interrogate in a meaningful way. These figures are not representative of the client base in its entirety. I would be horrified were the customers in that group to feel we were trying to stigmatise them. We work closely with groups representing lone parents and they in turn work closely with us to ensure we do our job properly.

I asked earlier about debt write-off but did not wish pursue the question by interrupting the Deputy who had the floor. The figure in 2009 was €11.5 million. What is the figure for 2010 and what is the expected figure for 2011?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

I do not know but I certainly can get this information and, if it would be helpful, I could provide a note in this regard to the Chairman.

The reason for my question is the Department refers in various parts of these reports to its systems such as its IT systems, its systems improvements and so on but yet there is this alarming figure of €11.5 million for 2009. As applications to the Department for benefit increase, it is quite likely that unless this issue is controlled this already significant figure will increase further. Other members have referred to their constituency work and in my constituency, I have been shocked by the number of people who are now emerging with letters from the Department indicating they have been overpaid. In one case, the amount was €75,000, in another it was €42,000 and in a third it was €25,000. Given this pertains to welfare benefit, in which payments are of a lower value, such overpayment occurred over a long time. It did not simply happen and was not a once-off event but happened each week for years. Moreover, in the aforementioned cases the overpayment was not uncovered by the Department as attention was drawn to them by information provided by the applicants for some other reason. Consequently, it was not the result of an investigation and did not pertain to any particular sector of applicants who are claiming benefit.

There appears to be a systems failure that allows this to happen, particularly when information is provided on other forms, as this concerns linking data between different Departments. For example, if one provides differential rent forms to a local authority for the purposes of making a claim to have one's rent paid, it would know whether one has a partner or is living with someone. However, this information does not appear to have been picked up by the Department. Has it been picked up or does the Department have a method to so do?

Ultimately, when one considers the Department's debt write-off for these years, the people concerned do not have €75,000 to give to it. In one case, the Department asked for a settlement of €500 per week, which is impossible. If this continues during the transition to a better IT system, a better system of accountability and the discovery of such errors, the Department will continue to experience difficulty with its debt, which will result in a greater debt write-off after some years. What is being done immediately about this issue and how is it being addressed by the Department? Is there a profile of the number of clients who owe such headline amounts of €75,000, €80,000 and so on? Alternatively, is the Department's debt made up of a huge number of much lower amounts?

Second, the figures suggest the amount paid out this year for supplementary welfare allowance will be €1.2 billion. How is payment of this allowance controlled? Local information received by members indicates this payment is at the discretion of local officers. As they are paying out €1.2 billion, what guidelines are in place? To what rules must they stick and what is the typical profile of the person who draws this money? My final question pertains to a subvention in 2010 to the social insurance fund. How much was that subvention and what is the projected figure for 2011?

Although I do not wish to delay Deputy McCarthy's contribution, I also seek two items of information. There appear to be huge delays with regard to the resolution of issues arising for applicants for domiciliary care allowance. Obviously this allowance pertains to families in difficulty or to a family member requiring such support. Despite the inclusion of reports from doctors and consultants with such applications, they fail or are sent for appeal or experience unacceptable delays. I make this point against the backdrop of my experience of being able to get information very easily from the Department. For example, its system of dealing with parliamentary questions and being forthcoming with information offers a lesson that could be learned by many other Departments. However, if this information is available after a parliamentary question is asked, why is it not available in the first place to a client who made an application for benefit and experienced difficulties? I ask because of the cost factor arising from having departmental staff deal with the volume of parliamentary questions that are tabled in this regard. The issue relates to clients of the Department who are members' constituents and for whom delays arise in presenting the information or dealing with the application.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

I will do my best to answer all these questions. While I have taken note of a number of different questions, the Chairman should come back to me if I do not answer them. As for overpayments, in the first instance I will share with the committee some headline information in respect of 2009. The highest single recovery in 2009 was €119,000, which pertained to an estate case. The highest write-off was of €77,000. It pertained to a widow's pension and there was no prospect of recovering it. I note that, as the average value of overpayments is approximately €1,500, the example of €75,000 cited by the Chairman certainly is not typical. The average value of estate overpayments is higher and is in the order of €29,000. Most cases that arise do so because people have been overpaid, for example, they take up employment and perhaps do not get paid in their employment for a week or two after starting and think erroneously it is legitimate for them to continue to receive payment from the State, even though they are in employment. Consequently, in such circumstances, there is a potential overpayment of a very short duration.

In my opening statement, I referred to the fact that, during 2008 and 2009 in particular, the focus of our general inspectorate certainly was on trying to assist in the processing of claims by assessing eligibility at claim initiation stage and this undoubtedly was at the expense of claim review processes. We have tried to rebalance this focus and seek to rebalance it further in the coming year. Overpayments obviously can arise in the circumstances I have described, whereby people take up employment and forget to tell us they have done so or if people's circumstances or means or those of their spouses have changed and they fail to tell us.

A number of different points arise. The Department has an obligation to try to ensure the rules governing eligibility are clear for those who apply. I believe we have made significant progress in this regard. We have worked with a number of different institutions to try to help us improve the comprehensibility of what can be highly complex and sophisticated underpinning legislation that governs entitlement in particular circumstances. We work with the Citizens' Information Board which has a particular expertise in terms of the language used in official documents, including forms, and helping us in that regard. If the Chairman's view is that we have more work to do, I will certainly take that on board. We will try to make things clear for people to understand with a view then to making it easy for them to tell us when their circumstances or entitlements have changed.

One initiative that we took in that area, for example, was to build a process where people could notify us online if they took up employment and wanted to sign off from the jobseeker's allowance. That had a significant effect for those who engaged with that process in terms of reducing the possibility of overpayment in those circumstances.

The Chairman touched on the information that is contained by other State agencies. There would certainly be value for us to be able to access information on tenancies held by local authorities. My latest understanding is that there is still not a common database in that area. Potentially we are dealing with something in the order of 50 plus housing authorities in trying to match information. It is not easy but we are in discussions about it with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. We have examined other sectors and we match information with the education sector and others, as I mentioned earlier. We seek to explore any opportunities we can to share information, specifically so that we can assure ourselves about the circumstances our customers have described to us. In future, hopefully we can share information provided to us with a view to making administration in other agencies easier. We think we have a role to play in addressing a customer issue of repeat information across the system.

Our expectation is that the expenditure on the supplementary welfare allowance will be about €1 billion in 2011 compared to just over €1 billion in 2010. That heading is made up of a number of different elements. Reliance on supplementary as a basic payment has reduced significantly over the last number of years. In reducing volume levels, a big and growing element is rent supplement, while further elements are the mortgage interest supplement as well as exceptional needs payments and humanitarian payments.

As regards the scheme rules that govern this, there are detailed guidelines for community welfare officers. Alongside those guidelines, however, community welfare officers have discretion in dealing with the personal circumstances of people who present. Deputy Deasy made the case earlier about a particular individual's set of circumstances. Potentially, the community welfare officer has discretion in that area to deal with the client, notwithstanding the fact that an individual may not be entitled to different payments on other grounds.

The Chairman also raised a question about the Exchequer subvention to the social insurance fund. In 2011, we expect it to be in the order of €1.7 billion. It was €1.85 billion in 2010. The fall is because PRSI receipts are higher in 2011 following the budget changes, including the abolition of earning ceilings and others. Therefore, even though both income and expenditure to the fund have been impacted upon, it has been in different ways because of the way in which the system operates.

It has just been clarified for me that rent supplement is falling. It was €516 million in 2010 and is expected to be less than €500 million in 2011.

Is the mortgage support going up or down?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

That is going up.

By how much? Does Ms O'Donoghue have figures?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

It has gone up from €65 million to €75 million.

There was a question about the domiciliary care allowance process.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

It is a lengthy process. It is taking somewhere in the order of eight weeks, on average, to process a claim for domiciliary care. This scheme moved from the health sector to my Department in 2009. One of the changes made at that point is that it moved from being a non-statutory scheme to a statutory one. A lot of work was done in preparation for us taking it on in order to try to inform the circumstances under which somebody might be entitled to the benefit, to stay in line with the intent of the Oireachtas in voting moneys and legislating for the scheme. Much expert opinion was sought. The primary eligibility for the scheme concerns the amount of care that somebody has to provide to a child. It is not reliant on the child's medical condition, although that is something that sometimes gets confused. It is our experience, both in terms of initial applications and the appeal process, that the more information we can get at claim application stage, the more we can allow our assessment process - both medical and administrative - to construct what level of care the child requires in order to carry out routine living. Some cases are very clear cut, while others are not, so the more information we can have in that regard the better. The scheme is not dependent on the child's medical condition or extent of disability; it is absolutely founded on the level of care the child needs in order to engage in normal living.

I will not labour the point but, generally speaking, the consultants' and other medical reports would clearly indicate the level of care that is required in extreme cases. I am surprised at the numbers that have failed. That is my point.

In dealing with officials in various branches, be they in Longford, Sligo or my own area of west Cork, I have always found them to be very helpful and patient. They are also good at passing on information and dealing with representations. Due to the economic downturn we regularly have many calls to contact departmental officials. I want to put on the record that there is a very good service from officials. They deserve that praise because all too often such people can come in for unnecessary criticism.

I wish to raise a couple of points, starting with the information released in March about the rate of child benefit paid from this country to children who are not resident here. In March, the figure was about 7,800 children covering some 5,000 families. I accept that because we are part of the EU we have no choice but to go along with that. However, there are huge anomalies in the difference between payments of some countries and the high rate of payment here. For example, the current child benefit rate in Estonia is €19.19. The Irish Government pays the difference between that and our own rate. Other rates are as follows: Cyprus €16, Slovenia €15, Poland €11 and Greece €7.91. Greece has benefited from a bailout, as Ireland has. A huge amount of money is involved.

The Minister was due to raise the issue at a meeting with Commissioner Andor in June. In 2010, it cost the State about €15.5 million. Has any progress been made in attempting to pay rates that either reflect the cost of living in the foreign country or are closer to average earnings there? There is a big anomaly which is costing the State a great deal of money.

Is there an element of fraud involved? How do we know, for example, that there would not be some fraudulent claims involved in that and what measures are in place to detect how genuine the cases are? What arrangements, for example, are in place between the State and the country where the children are living?

There is a scheme in operation in Australia where the department has access to bank accounts and can scan and monitor activity and if there is a spike or unusual activity, the bank would notify the department. I presume that would be one measure that would be useful in tackling social welfare fraud. We all will remember the individual who was living in Thailand and claiming for a variety of payments here. He was detected, went through the courts and will pay his dues in terms of criminal sanctions to the State. In that issue, is there any possibility of the Department having an arrangement with banks to detect, monitor and scan accounts?

We dealt with that question.

My apologies. I was late arriving. I was engaged in other aspects of parliamentary democracy this morning.

The Secretary General might give the same reply as she gave in my absence. In terms of the case in Thailand, would there be other cases like that coming down the track? That was obviously a high profile case.

Lastly, rent allowance accounts for a significant part of the social welfare budget. Obviously, a Department with a budget of €22 billion will come into the spotlight in the context of the current spending review. In terms of rent allowance, it makes little sense that the State stopped building social housing when it did. In a sense, it was privatised or socialised in many respects. It is a considerable financial burden on the State when there are so many houses lying idle around the country. Is there any policy initiative by the Department to enter into agreements with other State agencies? For example, have the Minister of State with responsibility for housing and the Minister discussed the possibility of shifting away from the considerable cost of renting in the private sector and in many cases subventing mortgages for landlords while there is significant available housing which makes no economic sense?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

The issue of payments being made in respect of children resident abroad has been considered a number of times at this and other committees. To put it in context, Deputy McCarthy is absolutely right. It is somewhere in the order of 7,000 families and €15 million expenditure, but one should bear in mind that child benefit is paid in respect of 1.2 million children. I do not deny that the expenditure is very significant, but as a proportion of child benefit it is less than 1% of expenditure.

On progress made, I am aware the Minister has spoken to the Commissioner. She has also spoken to a number of her colleagues at ministerial council level. She has reported, and has stated previously, that she has encountered some support or some sympathy among some other member countries. However, we cannot change what we do until the legislative base, the fundamental EU directive, changes. There is not yet a proposal in place to do that. That proposal would have to come from within and be agreed by the Council of Ministers. In as much as there may be support from some member states, I can assure the Deputy that there would be much resistance from other member states to changing that fundamental plank of cross-European social solidarity, for want of a better word.

We do not currently have the discretion. Notwithstanding the difficulties that have been so eloquently outlined, we do not have the discretion to change the rates of payment to pay persons in respect of children who are resident abroad but whose parent working here has an economic attachment to the workforce here. We have to treat them in the same way under EU law as we treat Irish persons working in Ireland. We cannot differentiate.

In terms of the verification processes, at claim application point we do engage with the authorities in the particular country to seek verification that, first, the children exist and, second, they are in the whole-time care of the parent who has remained in the country, or whatever other arrangement. In fact, that led to very considerable delays in some instances in terms of processing claims for child benefit in these circumstances because we were awaiting validation and we were not willing to put claims into payment until we had such validation.

On the continued engagement of the person in Ireland, we have a programme through certification on a periodic basis to make sure that the person is still here and that he or she is still engaged in the Irish economy justifying his or her entitlement to child benefit. That is part of our ongoing control activity. I have just received clarification that Deputy McCarthy had it right and I had it wrong. It involves 7,814 children and 4,900 families. My apologies for that.

On the bank activity, we are looking at a whole range of different things, as I mentioned earlier, with a view to seeing where can we get information that will help us. I would make two points about that. We would need legislative powers and it would be a matter for the Oireachtas to give us such powers if the Minister went to look for them. Second, and this is something that I did not mention earlier but which is extremely important, that would have to conform with all data protection legislation. That is something on which we are in constant communication with the Data Protection Commissioner in relation to the data we currently use and share. We must make sure that whatever we do does not infringe or affect any rights that might exist under that law.

On housing and interaction, the Department has a lot of interaction with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. It is that Department which has responsibility for housing. There is a Minister of State with that specific responsibility.

Certainly, we have had an objective in mind for many years. The rent supplement scheme was always intended to be a short-term scheme and people, when they have gone beyond a certain time on rent supplement, and if they have a continuing housing need and needed State support, should move into a different environment in terms of that housing being provided through housing policy rather than income support. There is a scheme in place called the RAS which is administered through the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and the local authorities. There have been very successful engagements over a number of years to move people from rent supplement into RAS. Probably, the progress, in terms of winding down the numbers on rent supplement, got a serious hit with the downturn in the economy and the numbers then finding themselves in need of rent supplement almost wiping out the progress that had been made in terms of transferral. We certainly would be very minded that we want to progress that.

When we look at the numbers of people who are in long-term receipt of rent supplement we would share concerns about whether that is the best or most appropriate way the State can support a housing need. We want to see people moving into RAS. Certainly, there has been much engagement. There is a working group that has been established, as I understand it, by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, on which my Department is represented, to see how best that can be progressed in the context of matters that must be arranged in that space and potential changes that we would have make in our system space to help support that activity. There is much engagement going on to try to drive that but it will not be something that we will be able to resolve immediately. It will take a bit of time for us to come to some sort of more effective arrangements in those regards.

On the fraud case and whether there are others, Deputy McCarthy will appreciate that we are engaged always in programmes of prosecution and it really would not be appropriate for me to talk about specific cases. We have ongoing prosecution activity and, because of the targeted nature and the risk-based nature of our SIU, we are being more successful in targeting people who pose greatest risk to the State.

I have one more question. On the appeals mechanism, there is generally a high rate of appeals that are successful where an application is made to the Department for a payment and it is refused for whatever reasons. On the rates of appeal, I do not have figures for those overturning the original decision by the Department but they were higher than one would expect or higher, at least, than I would expect in recent times. I ask for the information if it is available but, otherwise, perhaps we can get it on another occasion. What is the success rate for appeals in terms of the original departmental decision being overturned? When momentum gathers on policy developments or where a clear pattern becomes evident, is a review conducted of the criteria for the payment? Is there a linkage subsequent to the appeals process?

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

The Deputy raised two issues. In regard to the second, we have a decisions advisory office in the Department which is constantly reviewing the consistency of decision making across scheme areas. That process is informed by the experience of our appeals offices and there is regular dialogue on trends that may become apparent in regard to decisions that have not been made correctly. That dialogue informs the decisions advisory office and, if the need arises, will eventually feed into revised guidelines to deciding officers in terms of how schemes are implemented.

While I acknowledge we have a significant number of appeals, perhaps it would be helpful were I to clarify the issue by referring to figures from 2010. In 2010, some 28,000 appeals were finalised by the appeals office. Of those cases 25%, or almost 8,000 appeals, were successful because of revised decisions by deciding officers. I noted earlier that when an appeal is lodged it is accompanied by additional information that was not provided at the point of application. The appeal application will go back to the deciding officer or the scheme area to consider whether the decision remains valid in light of the new information or circumstances. In these 8,000 cases we were able to revise the decision without making use of the formal appeals process.

Approximately 17,500 decisions went into the appeals process, of which 5,500 were heard by way of oral appeal hearings and 12,000 by summary appeal hearings. In the case of oral appeals, approximately 45% resulted in a favourable outcome for clients but the figure for summary hearings was 18.9%. Overall, the outcome is favourable in respect of 42% of those who appealed to the Department but a significant proportion of these cases benefited from the provision of additional information which allowed for revised decisions. Where oral hearings were required to make a judgment on a complex situation, this allowed for a favourable decision.

The divide between oral and summary hearings is not arbitrary. It is decided on the basis of the clarity of information available to the appeals officer. If it is a clear case, the appeals officer will be able to make a decision but if it requires matters of fine judgment to be applied, an oral appeal will generally be heard.

The appeals office has produced a workflow chart which tracks the process through the outcomes and this can be made available to the committee if it would be helpful.

Does Mr. Buckley wish to comment further?

Mr. John Buckley

I have nothing to add to my opening remarks.

Does the committee agree to note Vote 38, Social and Family Affairs and 2009 accounts of the social insurance funds and to dispose of the following chapters: Chapter 31, expenditure on social welfare; Chapter 32, regularity of social welfare payments; Chapter 33, welfare overpayment debts; Chapter 34, non-contributory State pension; and Chapter 35, one-parent family payments? Agreed.

I thank the witnesses.

The witness withdrew.

Earlier in the meeting we went through the various statements that were submitted to the committee. I suggest that we deal with No. 4.28, Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, at some stage in terms of our work programme. Members can make other suggestions regarding their choice of priorities.

Next Thursday's meeting will examine the 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General Appropriation Accounts, Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners, Chapters 12 to 18, inclusive.

The committee adjourned at 13.15 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 22 September 2011.
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