COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 18 Jul 2013

Chapter - 24 Supplementary Welfare Allowance

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue (Secretary General, Department of Social Protection) called and examined.

Chairman

Before we begin, I remind Members and witnesses to turn off their mobile telephones as they interfere with the sound quality and transmission of the meeting.

I advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are further directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, any person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Members are reminded of the provision within Standing Order 163 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. I welcome Ms Niamh O’Donoghue, Secretary General of the Department of Social Protection, and ask her to introduce her officials.

Ms Niamh O’Donoghue

I am accompanied by Mr. John Shannon, assistant principal, regional support unit.

On my left sit Ms Anne Vaughan, deputy secretary; Mr. Seán Reilly, principal officer in our accounts branch and finance unit; and Mr. John Conlon, assistant secretary for the finance unit.

Chairman

The witnesses are all very welcome. I now invite the Comptroller and Auditor General to introduce the 2011 annual report, chapter 24. The full text of the chapter can be found in the annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General or on the website of the Comptroller and Auditor General at www.audgen.gov.ie.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The supplementary welfare allowance scheme acts as a form of safety net within the welfare system. It is designed to provide speedy and flexible assistance to people who do not qualify for other scheme payments or who are awaiting decisions on claim applications under other income support schemes. Supplementary welfare was formerly administered by the community welfare Services division of the HSE on behalf of the Department of Social Protection. In October 2011, the community welfare staff transferred to the Department, which now has direct responsibility for scheme administration.

The assistance available consists of basic income support and a range of payments to cover certain living expenses that claimants may not be able to meet including urgent and exceptional needs payments. Rent supplement and mortgage interest supplement are also elements of supplementary welfare. Together with basic income support, these account for more than 80% of supplementary welfare expenditure. These are the three elements covered in the report before the committee today.

Each category of supplementary welfare examined has distinct target groups albeit with some overlaps. In effect, they are different schemes administered within a common organisation structure. Due to the different scheme risks and claimant profiles, the report recommended that the Department should treat them as separate schemes and that separate control policies should be developed for each.

Three out of every four claims for basic income support relate to people who are awaiting decisions on applications under primary schemes such as jobseeker's allowance or disability allowance. Expenditure on basic supplementary income support in 2011 was €169 million after recoupment of around €137 million from other schemes. The Department's policy is to check interim supplementary welfare claims weekly. The report recommended that an automated link should be established to trigger an immediate review of a claimant's basic supplementary income payment when a decision is made on an application under another scheme. This should ensure that when decisions are made about the primary scheme applications, appropriate action is also taken promptly on supplementary income support including any required recoupment of interim payments.

Rent supplement is an additional payment available under certain conditions to tenants in private rented accommodation who are in receipt of any social welfare or HSE payment or are on low incomes. It is not restricted to those on supplementary income support. Expenditure on rent supplement in 2011 was over €500 million. Almost 100,000 households were in receipt of support at end year. While rent supplement was originally intended as a short-term support, many recipients depend on the scheme over the medium to long term. At the end of 2011, more than half of the dependent households were in receipt of rent supplement for a year or more. The duration of claims may be understated because claimants who change address may in some cases be recorded as new claims. It would be preferable to measure the duration of claims based on length of household claim rather than length of tenancy. The Department sets maximum eligible rent rates for the scheme by reference to the location of the property and the composition of the claimant's household. In contrast, rents in the market are set by reference to property type. For risk management purposes, it was recommended that the Department develop its scheme management system to record and analyse expenditure by household composition and the type and location of accommodation rented.

A review carried out by the Department in 2011 estimated that the rent supplement scheme was funding about 40% of all households in the private rental sector. Analysis indicates that the maximum rent limits set by the Department have a significant influence on the rental market with evidence of many landlords using the rent supplement limits as benchmarks in setting rental prices in the respective areas. As a result, the Department has potential to influence the residential rental market to a significant degree. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government is also a significant market player through the rental accommodation scheme. The Department carries out reviews of the maximum rent limits about every 18 months. A review carried out at the end of 2011 resulted in reductions to the rent limits in almost all locations reflecting market decline in rents. I understand that another market-based review has recently been completed resulting in further adjustments to rent limits.

Controls are required to verify the accuracy of rental amounts paid by claimants because these determine the level of rent supplement that may be payable. Scheme guidelines require claimants to provide evidence of their tenancy and of the amount of rent being paid but the examination found that such evidence was not on file in 80% of sample cases examined. The Accounting Officer stated that additional staff training would be provided on the proper maintenance of records and that powers of enquiry have recently been granted to appropriate staff to request and oblige landlords to provide information in respect of rent supplement tenants.

The Department rarely refuses to pay rent supplement on the grounds that the accommodation is not to an acceptable standard. Staff administering the rent supplement scheme are not required to make a judgement on whether accommodation is of a suitable standard as they are not qualified to do so. Staff can refuse to pay rent supplement where the Department has been notified by a local authority that the relevant accommodation standards are not being complied with. If a notification relates to an existing claimant, the situation is discussed with the claimant and the Department staff attempt to act in the claimant's best interest. Home visits by staff provide evidence that the claimant is living at the address they have stated and can also be used to assess the standard of accommodation and its suitability for the claimant's needs. In two local offices visited, the examination team found very different approaches to the conduct of home visits. In the Bishop's Square office in Dublin, all 15 cases examined had a home visit at claim award stage. In contrast, the examination found that 14 of the 15 rent supplement claims examined in Galway had never been the subject of a home visit either when the claim was put into payment or at a later review stage.

The discrepancy between offices in the home visit rates is striking and may reflect different legacy approaches taken in HSE regions. Given the level of expenditure incurred and the vulnerability of many of those dependent on welfare assistance, it is important to ensure that accommodation of an acceptable standard is provided. For that reason, the report recommends that occasional home visits to rent supplement recipients should be undertaken. In cases where deficiencies in the standard of accommodation are evident, the Department staff should refer the accommodation to the relevant local authority for inspection. Results of such referrals should be monitored and taken into account in reviews of claims.

Mortgage interest supplement is paid to assist eligible households with the interest portion of their mortgage repayments. The number of claimants increased from around 3,700 in 2007 to 18,700 in 2011. Expenditure in 2011 was around €67 million. A review published by the Department in July 2010 confirmed that the overall objective of the mortgage interest supplement scheme remained valid but recommended a number of changes. Legislation enacted in June 2012 provided that applicants must have secured alternative payment arrangements with lenders for at least 12 months prior to applying for mortgage supplement. The Accounting Officer will be able to update the committee in respect of other changes to the scheme and their impact on eligibility and expenditure levels.

Chairman

I invite Ms O'Donoghue to make her opening statement.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I thank the Chairman for allowing me to make a brief opening statement. I understand that the committee wishes to examine the chapter on supplementary welfare allowance in the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report for 2011. As requested, I provided the committee with an update on the conclusions contained in this chapter.

In 2013, the Department will spend €20.243 billion on a wide range of schemes, services and administration. It is estimated that almost €718 million will be spent on supplementary welfare allowance schemes this year. The committee will be aware that there have been significant changes in the management and administration of the supplementary welfare allowance scheme within the last two years with the transfer of the community welfare service and some 1,000 staff from the HSE to the Department on 1 October 2011.

As chapter 24 of the Comptroller's annual report confirms, the total scheme expenditure on supplementary welfare allowance in 2011 was €911 million. As the committee will see from the material I have provided, the provisional outturn figure for the scheme for 2012 is €787 million. I and my staff in the Department are very aware of the responsibility we carry in ensuring the proper disbursement of Government funding.

Supplementary welfare allowance, SWA, is an important "safety net" within the overall welfare system. It is aimed at persons whose means are insufficient to meet their needs and those of their dependants. The main purpose of the scheme is to provide immediate and flexible assistance to persons in need who do not qualify for welfare payments under any other State scheme. This can take the form of basic income support, supplementary payments or exceptional needs payments in respect of certain living expenses a person may not currently be able to meet. Given the nature of the payments and that the people seeking payment may be in difficult situations, the Department can operate discretion, as set out in the legislation, regarding these payments.

The chapter focused on control within the overall scheme and covered the three main areas of basic income support, rent supplement and mortgage interest supplement. I will provide an update to the committee on each of these three areas.

Basic SWA or BASI, as it is known, may be payable to customers awaiting the outcome of a claim or an appeal for a primary social welfare payment. In 2011, expenditure on this scheme was €174 million in respect of more than 34,000 customers. Expenditure increased marginally to €179 million in 2012 in respect of 32,000 customers. The Department has introduced a number of measures which, when combined, reduce the recourse to BASI. This can be evidenced by a drop of more than 2,200 in the numbers on the scheme in the 12 months ending December 2012. The numbers on the scheme have continued to drop by almost a further 4,600 to a total of 27,800 in 2013.

One of the key measures is the new Intreo service, which is currently being rolled out across the Department's local offices on a phased basis. This new service integrates employment and income supports and provides for a streamlined and personalised service to clients in accessing job opportunities and availing of supports to enable them to get back to work at the earliest possible opportunity. The Intreo centres also include a single integrated decision-making team that integrates and streamlines the processes formerly undertaken by the different agencies, including the community welfare service, which has been amalgamated into the Department. The benefits of the integrated decisions process are already visible in terms of shorter decision times and in the reduced recourse to supplementary payments in the 28 offices where integrated decisions are now in operation. It will be extended to the remaining offices as quickly as possible this year.

Rent supplement provides short-term income support to eligible tenants living in private rented accommodation whose means are insufficient to meet their accommodation costs and who do not have accommodation available to them from any other source. Expenditure on this scheme in 2011 was €503 million in respect of almost 97,000 customers. There was a significant reduction of €80 million in the scheme in 2012 over that in 2011 yielding significant savings to the Exchequer while maintaining the demanded levels of service. This reduction can be attributed to a number of factors including a reduction of more than 9,000 customers, saving €25 million, an increase in the customers' minimum contribution they are obliged to pay, saving €35 million, and a reduction in the maximum rent limits available under the scheme, saving €20 million.

As the Department currently funds almost 30% of the private rented sector, it is essential that State support for rents are continually kept under review and reflect current market conditions in a balanced way. A review process is undertaken every 18 months to ensure value for money is achieved while, at the same time, ensuring people on rent supplement are not priced out of the market for private rented accommodation. The Department has recently completed the 2013 review with revised limits being put in place from 17 June 2013 up to December 2014. The recent review broadly reflects the new market trends with rises in counties Dublin and Galway and the majority of rural counties falling. In terms of policy, the aim is to transfer responsibility for the provision of rental assistance to persons with a long-term housing need from this Department to housing authorities using a new housing assistance payment, HAP, and to return rent supplement to its original objective, which is the provision of short-term income support to those who have become temporarily unemployed. Officials in the Department are working closely with those in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to give effect to this transfer.

Mortgage interest supplement provides short-term income support to eligible people who are unable to meet their mortgage interest repayments in respect of a house which is their sole place of residence. Expenditure on this scheme in 2011 was €68 million in respect of almost 19,000 customers. In 2012, expenditure on the scheme was reduced to €55 million which can be attributed to a number of factors, including an increase in the customers' minimum contribution and a reduction of more than 4,300 customers. The drop in customers can be attributed to a change in the eligibility criteria for the scheme. Budget 2012 provided for the curtailment of access to the mortgage interest supplement scheme for the first 12 months the person is involved in the mortgage arrears resolution process, MARP. This process acknowledges that it is in the interest of both the lender and the borrower to address financial difficulties as speedily and effectively as circumstances allow.

As a Department, we have restructured and transformed our organisation with colleagues from a number of different organisations, including the community welfare service, bringing their unique insights and experiences to the work of the new DSP organisation. Once again I would like to express my own gratitude to all the staff across the Department who work hard every day. These are changing and challenging times for us and, in particular, for our customers who depend on us. The role of the community welfare service and the objectives of the SWA scheme are compatible with the goals and objectives of the Department. My colleagues and I continue to strive to provide income support and employment and activation services support particularly to those most in need while continuing to ensure the controls in place minimise incidents of fraud and error.

Chairman

Can I publish Ms O'Donoghue's statement?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I welcome Ms O'Donoghue and her colleagues. I have a number of questions but I would like first to refer to the reduction in SWA payments from €911 million in 2011 to €718 million this year. She sounded that theme elsewhere in her contribution and it is evidenced in the figures. I would like to tease this out because it is evident that far from hardship being lifted from the population, increasingly, individuals and families are coming under significant financial strain. Will Ms O'Donoghue explain the reduction of €200 million under the SWA scheme in two years?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I need to go back a further two years to complete the picture. The economic downturn, which began in 2008, caused huge problems for, and placed huge demands on, the social welfare system across all its schemes and services. That peaked in 2010 and 2011. Many of the schemes we provide are demand-led and, therefore, if somebody meets the eligibility criteria, he or she qualifies for payment. It is not a question of the scheme being budget capped. The person who meets the eligibility criteria will receive the payment involved. In 2010 and 2011, because of process difficulties the Department experienced across a wide range of primary scheme areas, there was increased recourse to supplementary welfare payments. That demand not alone translated into claims on our primary schemes but also to claims for BASI payments while people awaited a decision on their primary payment.

The big change over the last couple of years, particularly this year, is that, as we have got our act together in regard to claim processing within the Department, this means there are speedier decisions, so people who are entitled to be paid the primary payment are now receiving it more quickly. As a consequence, they do not have to make a claim for supplementary welfare payment to bridge a gap while that decision is being made. That is the kind of big change that has happened.

In regard to rent supplement, particularly over the last year there have been changes in the contributions people have to make to rent supplement, and that has generated savings for the Exchequer. However, it has meant there has been more responsibility on the individual to contribute to their housing need. There has also been a significant movement in the last 18 months of people from rent supplement into the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, which has reduced the numbers there. From about the middle of 2012 onwards, there has been a stabilisation and a reduction of in jobseeker claims, but as the numbers on those payments has reduced, their entitlement to claim rent supplement has also reduced. That is accounted for by a number of different factors, including the fact there are fewer people in receipt of jobseeker's payments. It could be that people who had previously migrated into Ireland to work have now migrated back home, and they are not relying on either getting a welfare payment or rent supplement here.

That is the general picture. As I said, one would need to look at this over a four-year period to see how it peaked and has now begun to stabilise.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I can accept any of those scenarios, which are extremely plausible. Beyond this being plausible in a general sense, however, the Department has no means of tracking. Obviously, the Department's figures show quite a dramatic drop of over €200 million in supplementary welfare allowance over two years in times that are still extremely tough for people. From a systems point of view, does Ms O'Donoghue have any other information other than those general observations? Does she see what I am getting at?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes. As the Comptroller and Auditor General pointed out, supplementary welfare allowance is a broad brush that applies across a significant number of schemes, the big three being the three that are the subject of the report here. What we track is the number of applicants and recipients, and changes in the eligibility for the scheme also have an impact in terms of the expenditure levels. It is both the claimant numbers and the actual level of support that is being provided, one way or another, and whether that is made up through their increased contribution or whether it is that the eligibility criteria have tightened, as in the case of mortgage interest supplement, for example.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I am referring more to Ms O'Donoghue's sense or belief that "we have got our act together", as she put it, in respect of the primacy schemes, and that more efficient processes in regard to primary schemes had led to this drop. I know there has been some improvement in respect of some schemes. However, I am sure other Deputies might also verify that, increasingly, there is a view among the population that when a person makes an application for a payment, the first instinct of the system is to refuse, and the person is then into an appeals process. My own evidence, which is subjective and entirely unscientific, is that this is increasingly the case. Yet, Ms O'Donoghue said "we have got our act together" in terms of the primary schemes and, therefore, this has alleviated the spend.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I am happy to provide, through our statistics report, chapter and verse to support what I am saying here. I appreciate there may be a perception that there is a higher rate of disallowance now than there was, but that is not necessarily the case. Obviously, across a number of our schemes, a higher number of people are applying, so there might be more people not meeting the criteria because there is a greater number of applicants. There is no doubt, however, and we can absolutely show, that our ability to process primary claims speedily has a direct impact on recourse to BASI.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I would appreciate it if I could see those figures, for my own interest.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Certainly.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Ms O'Donoghue said the Intreo system is being rolled out in offices across the State. Will she provide more information on this? Where is Intreo located?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

The intention is that every social welfare local office will have an Intreo service centre. At the end of 2012, there were ten Intreo service offices in place. The target is to have another 33 offices in place by the end of 2013, with all remaining offices in place in 2014.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

What is the total figure for the number of remaining offices?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

It is about 63 local offices in total, so there would be about 20 more.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Ms O'Donoghue is probably aware that the Irish National Organisation for the Unemployed, INOU, has been quite critical of Intreo and the slowness of the roll-out of that system. The INOU will tell Ms O'Donoghue, as my own experience tells me, that very often jobseekers find a very disjointed, sometimes very confusing and sometimes misleading - I use the word advisedly - system when they present themselves. Is she aware of that?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I am certainly aware of criticisms made about the pace of delivery of Intreo services. However, I would make two distinctions. First, the Intreo service is about integrating the service provision. It is about bringing together the community welfare service, the employment services and the income support services, and being able to deal with somebody in a holistic way. There are elements of that service in terms of integrated decision making and customer profiling, and, certainly, we can take the first steps of activation even in advance of physical changes of infrastructure, and we are doing that - hence the reference to the 28 offices and the fact we will be rolling out the service elements of Intreo to all our local offices by the end of the year.

There is a longer lead-in time where we need to change the physical infrastructure. In some cases, we have to relocate staff, acquire new offices, close down certain offices and bring staff together in a new configuration to try to make sense of customer engagement. We are working very closely with the OPW to deliver that.

We work very closely with the INOU and talk to its representatives very regularly in regard to its experience with us. Certainly, the INOU would wish us to be able to progress more quickly but, generally, where we have the integrated service in place, there is very good feedback from the recipients of that service.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Ms O'Donoghue said the integrated decision model significantly reduces decision times.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

It does. It involves people who traditionally would have been involved in Department of Social Protection income support decision making but, critically, it now also involves somebody who has experience from the former community welfare service.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

What kind of a time improvement are we talking about?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

The Deputy can imagine a situation where, prior to the integration of services, the community welfare officers might be in a different office in a different part of the city. Somebody would come in to make a claim in the Department of Social Protection, complete their paperwork and give us the claim details. Having provided all of that, they might have had some expectation that they would get a decision within a couple of weeks from the Department. If they had immediate income need, they would have been told they had to go and see the community welfare officer, and they would get assessed there and then and get paid BASI, probably within a couple of days. Having the integrated decision teams in place in the Department more or less guarantees that the person will now have a decision within a day or two, certainly within a week.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

That is very interesting and, again, I would like to see the documentation, if possible. With regard to rent supplement, how does Ms O'Donoghue account for the lack of home visits which has been identified by the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

There are a number of different elements and the Comptroller and Auditor General has raised the issue of suitability and standards of accommodation. The community welfare service officers are not responsible for gauging or monitoring the quality of the accommodation because the tenancy agreement is effectively an agreement between the tenant and the landlord and is a private contract to which the Department is not party. Our view on home visits is that the person from the community welfare service or the social welfare inspector should have the opportunity to visit a premises where such a visit might be warranted. As in the response I provided already, we have taken legal powers to reinforce and extend the facility available to inspectors to visit accommodation, but it is more about ensuring the terms of the scheme are abided by rather than the quality of the accommodation. I am very conscious other State agencies are involved in this, such as the Private Residential Tenancies Board and the local authorities, and we work closely with them.

What was pointed out by the Comptroller and Auditor General were inconsistencies in practice throughout various regions. We have put together a working group in the Department comprising staff who were previously involved in the community welfare service with a view to looking at and trying to standardise practice where it is appropriate and issue guidelines to staff so there is clarity on what is expected of them in terms of dealing with claims.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I understand other agencies have duties and responsibilities and this does not fall solely at the Department's feet but, as Ms O'Donoghue pointed out, the Department funds a huge proportion of the private rented sector. Is the figure 30%?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is not appropriate, I am sure Ms O'Donoghue will agree, that the State should subsidise substandard accommodation, or in some cases slum accommodation, and I have seen this with my own eyes. Unfortunately until recently all of the State agencies and some local authorities stood off this issue. Whatever about giving good practice to the Department's people working in the area what about the bigger picture of knitting together the efforts of the various State agencies to ensure they are not shelling out considerable sums of money, for slums in some cases, to very dishonourable landlords?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Wherever there is a need for agencies to work together we are very amenable to this approach and we work very hard to work with other parties to deal with problems. There is no getting away from the responsibility of the local authorities. We have good communication links with local authorities, and where local authorities determine that accommodation is substandard we are given this information which informs our decision on whether rent supplement is granted.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I absolutely recognise the responsibilities of others and I do not have any expectation the Department would do this on its own, but nonetheless it is the paying agent with the money. I would like to hear something a little less passive in respect of this particular issue.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

The guidelines are about trying to illustrate some type of consistency among staff, including determining when a home visit might be necessary. Part of this requirement would be where we become aware of substandard accommodation we involve the local authority so the communication link is completed.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Outside of having communications between the agencies there is no dedicated focus or group of people which comes together in any type of formation to address collectively, albeit with local authorities in the driving seat, the issue of substandard and slum accommodation in which, believe you me, many people live.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

There is no formal group but we have an inter-agency approach on a case by case basis if particular issues arise.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

That is not great, is it? From an operational point of view, what does Ms O'Donoghue think of having a coherent inter-agency approach, not on a case by case basis, but in a focused way?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I absolutely recognise there is a problem if there is substandard accommodation, and this is not good enough for the person who must live in it and it is not good enough where the State is involved in paying. However I must be mindful of what our relationship is, which is providing an income support towards meeting a housing need for the individual rather than assessing the standard of accommodation. Absolutely we should, and do, play a full role if we are aware of accommodation not being of good standard and ensuring those who have the appropriate powers take action can do so. Where we are aware there is a problem we will not sanction payment of rent supplement. This is a moving feast because the purpose of rent supplement was supposed to be a very short-term income support.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

We know in many cases it is not.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I understand there should be developments on this, with a view to different arrangements being in place from 2014 onwards through the housing assistance programme, whereby the local authorities will be more front and centre in the engagement and verifying the standard of accommodation.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

My colleague is reminding me to speed things up, albeit very politely. It is not acceptable to have people literally living in kips with the State shelling out money and agencies with responsibilities looking the other way. Working on a case by case basis is all very well and good, but to address the issue in any significant way there needs to be a much tighter framework and consideration.

Ms O'Donoghue stated the Department reviews rent limits and is mindful of market conditions. Is the Department mindful of the fact many people - I do not have a figure - in receipt of this payment are topping up to an enormous extent to keep a roof over their heads? Ms O'Donoghue made the point the Department is not party to the contract between the tenant and the landlord and this is true, but in recent times it has written regularly to people telling them the threshold has dropped and they must negotiate the matter with the landlord. I accept the political and budgetary decisions are not the Department's, and the blame for them lies squarely at the Government's feet, but is Ms O'Donoghue aware of the hardship this causes for people in vulnerable situations who are sent off to negotiate again and again a downward reduction in their rent? It is entirely within the landlord's prerogative to say "No", which leaves the person concerned potentially homeless.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

The Deputy has raised a number of points. The primary interest of our service is with the individual at the centre of the service, and it is to protect the rights of this individual. If the rent limits are reduced, it is in line with the market at the prevailing time. Any suggestion somebody should renegotiate is in the context of the market conditions which prevail. Where this negotiation is not successful, as the Deputy mentioned, and the landlord refuses to reduce rent, our service will work closely with the tenant to secure alternative accommodation.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

This does not happen. I have dealt with such situations more times than I care to remember. The constituency I represent includes the inner city of Dublin and Cabra, and rental limits do not reflect the reality. I can speak about the place I represent and I can tell Ms O'Donoghue categorically the limits put people under enormous pressure and leave them with no option but to make up the shortfall.

What the Department takes back by way of a saving to the Exchequer a person on a low income is forced to find and shell out just to remain in his or her accommodation.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

We monitor situations to determine what happens after rent limits are reduced. The evidence available to us is that the majority of tenants have been able to renegotiate their rents.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Does Ms O'Donoghue mean everywhere in the inner city?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I am speaking on a national basis. I do not have specific details. Even in the recent rent limit review, different approaches were taken. In some instances, the rent limit increased to reflect the change in market circumstances. In others, it was reduced. Some of the areas to which the Deputy is referring-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Where did it increase?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

In County Dublin and Galway. We can provide the Deputy with exact details.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I am drawing the Secretary General's attention to a problem in the inner city. I am referring to Dublin 1, Dublin 3 and Dublin 7.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

All of the limits in Dublin increased reasonably substantially.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

What was the scale of the increase?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

The limit applicable to a couple or one-parent family with one child was €775 per month in 2012. From 17 June this year, that rate increased to €850 per month. Across the spectrum, the lowest increase was €20 for a couple sharing, whereas other increases were in the order of €45, €50 or, in some instances, €75.

The Deputy mentioned top-ups, which can arise in two circumstances. First, if someone is entitled to rent supplement but the primary scheme under which he or she receives a payment allows him or her to earn an income, an agreement is possible whereby the individual can stay in accommodation of a higher standard if he or she is in a position to make an adjustment to the rent supplement. That is perfectly legitimate. As the Deputy referenced and has been alleged to us, under-the-counter top-ups are being made in some instances. This is not within the confines of the scheme and forms part of the reason our inspectorate has additional powers to query rent information with landlords. It is also why we have data exchanges with the Private Residential Tenancies Board and the Revenue Commissioners, providing for a multi-agency approach to this potential problem.

Second, we will pay above the rent limit in certain instances. For example, if accommodation has been adapted for someone with a disability and the rent is higher, the community welfare officer has discretion to pay above the rent limit.

While limits are in place for the majority of tenancies, some exceptions are acceptable within the confines of the scheme. If there is evidence to suggest top-ups are happening outside the scheme, we would be interested in receiving that information.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

One would find it difficult to find accommodation for €850 per month in the postal codes to which I referred. Ms O'Donoghue could go online or read the Evening Herald and see this for herself. I accept that, in the final analysis, it is a political decision for the Government to recognise that people cannot spirit quality accommodation for themselves and their families out of nowhere on a shoestring. Asking them to negotiate to and fro with their landlords is an abuse of the people concerned.

I have a final point. Will Ms O'Donoghue discuss direct provision for asylum seekers? She will be aware of a case involving a woman who, having applied for supplementary welfare allowance, was unsuccessful. Her appeal was successful, yet the allowance was not paid to her. She went through the entire system and received damages as a result. Ms Emily Logan, the children's ombudsman, had much to say about this issue last week. Is Ms O'Donoghue in a position to reassure us that there are no other such cases? As the woman in question had arrived in the State prior to the 2009 legislation, she had an entitlement. It was refused and then granted but wilfully ignored. This raises a concern about the system, its decision-making structures, the culture of the organisation and the attitude of some but not all individuals within it.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

That case was referenced in the Ombudsman for Children's report. The sequence of events, including the failure to comply with the appeal's decision, happened before the service formally transferred to the Department in 2011. We have been trying to ensure greater consistency, bearing in mind that the community welfare services were operating out of more than 700 locations and numbered approximately 1,000 staff when we took them over. While respecting the discretion of community welfare officers to deal with the situations that presented, we wanted to bring to bear the Department's principles, values and experience in trying to ensure consistency and adherence to legislation and statutory entitlements. A great deal of work has been undertaken in terms of providing training supports, workshops and the development of guidelines in order that people can be clearer about their roles and responsibilities. Unfortunately, I cannot give the Deputy an absolute guarantee, but I am confident that we have taken many measures to try to ensure such issues do not arise again. If we become aware of any, we will do our best to resolve it as quickly as possible.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I did not raise the issue because I imagined for one second that the Secretary General could provide a blanket guarantee of human behaviour; I raised it because of the need for protocols and standards in respect of that discretionary, albeit necessary, element.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

We are keen that people understand the discretion relates to the assessment of the claim in the first instance. Where legal and appeals processes are in place, they should understand the relevant issues and that the discretion does not apply to the application of the appeals outcome, which was the case in this instance.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I thank Ms O'Donoghue and her staff for attending. In these situations we inevitably focus on the shortcomings, but we should recognise the importance of the Department's role in putting bread on so many people's tables around the country.

My first question is a general one on unemployed young people. To what extent are policies and programmes in place to encourage them in the direction of work?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

It is a multifaceted approach. There is far greater attention on this issue, particularly in the wake of the agreement on the youth guarantee and the Government's commitment to developing a plan for implementation of same by the end of this year.

There are a number of elements to this, of which one is that some of the primary payments have staggered rates and there is a sense that they can only be paid at the full rate if the individual participates. That was introduced a number of years ago specifically to provide a monetary incentive for people under 25 years to engage in training, a work placement or something along these lines. We work very closely with a number of other agencies. We work with FÁS in the provision of training and the Department of Education and Skills in accessing various education and training courses. We work with other providers such as community employment schemes to specifically target young people. There are a number of initiatives in place and the youth guarantee will bring a real focus to that age group as opposed to the entire cohort of the unemployed. There are various schemes in place, including education and work schemes and training measures, and they have all been increased in recent years, with additional places for young people.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I understand the youth guarantee is starting as a pilot project in Ballymun. What specific aspects will encourage people to move towards work, in being able to work or successfully compete for work?

Mr. Niamh O'Donoghue

The Commission decided to put out a call for pilot schemes in advance of the details of the youth guarantee being teased out and agreed to. We made a bid and secured approval for the project in Ballymun. Some of the experience gained in having an holistic focus on young people and seeing what we could do with the Ballymun initiative will inform our thinking on the national plan which we are required to develop by the end of this year. In other words, every member state has been asked to formulate specific plans for the youth guarantee and bring them to the European Union by the end of the year with a view to a full programme being rolled out from 2014 and 2015.

Deputy Robert Dowds

It is intended to roll out the programme elsewhere in the country.

Mr. Niamh O'Donoghue

As with any pilot scheme, we try to engage on a particular basis to see if there is a positive impact and learn from it. We can see if it is a question of replication or doing something else based on experience. I understand there will be approximately 90 young people involved per month in the Ballymun pilot scheme and the thrust is that we work with a range of groups in the area and in a joined-up fashion as much as we possibly can.

Deputy Robert Dowds

With regard to initiatives taken up to now, has there been a collation of evidence on the extent to which people have moved towards employment?

Mr. Niamh O'Donoghue

We must recognise that different schemes serve different purposes. The Deputy is aware that an evaluation was made of the JobBridge internship scheme which showed an extremely high rate of progression into employment.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Was it approximately 50%?

Mr. Niamh O'Donoghue

It was 61% within so many months of completion of the internship. That is a much more positive experience than can be seen across Europe, so much so that a number of other countries have asked for details of the scheme and are seeking to learn from our experience in that regard. There has been much analysis and reporting in recent years on progression rates under the community employment scheme, for example, and they do not necessarily recognise that the community employment scheme potentially satisfies a number of aspects. It absolutely provides a vehicle for people to receive training and gain experience to allow them to progress, but in other instances, it can satisfy a social or community need that may not necessarily have the aspiration of progression. We must recognise that there are a number of strands in that respect.

We are aware of and try to track or improve analysis of the continuing significant churn on the live register, with significant numbers coming on and off the register every month and year. People move for a variety of reasons, with approximately one third going back to employment, which might be short or long-term. In other cases, people move off the register in order to take up a training place or avail of an educational opportunity. Others move off the register in order to take an opportunity abroad, or they may sign off because they no longer meet conditions of the scheme. We certainly hope to try to improve our ability to report on the issue, but it is complicated. Given the degree of churn, it is very difficult to make absolute assessments of what does or does not work. We must try to do this over time and consider our experience, as well as what is happening internationally.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I agree with the comments made on the value of the community employment scheme, but those who pull our financial strings do not always appreciate this. Is there any evidence that they are beginning to appreciate the value of such schemes?

Mr. Niamh O'Donoghue

It is recognised and a new initiative is being taken with local authorities. This gateway programme is targeted at long-term unemployed persons becoming involved in the scheme. It is not in every instance that the person might necessarily progress to employment. We must try to satisfy a number of elements. For example, we must keep people as close to the labour market as possible and try to ensure they can access the appropriate skills or training that might enhance their ability to secure employment. We should also recognise that there are a number of people, particularly in vulnerable positions, who may never be able to work in a commercial market, where assistance and engagement are required. Support is needed for such cases.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I will turn to the question of rent supplement. Does Ms O'Donoghue agree that, in many cases, rent supplement puts people in a poverty trap? It is my impression that this is the case for many.

Mr. Niamh O'Donoghue

It is not so much the case that it is a poverty trap, but we are acutely aware of the disincentive effect of rent supplement in the case of a person looking to progress from unemployment to employment. There is conditionality attached to rent supplement. That is why the decision on the housing assistance payment will be different. In a sense, these are policy issues and the Government has clearly outlined policy in that direction. The expectation is to try to remove that disincentive to engagement by moving people to the housing assistance payment.

Deputy Robert Dowds

How far down the road is that movement? I have some experience of seeing the rental assistance scheme in operation.

Mr. Niamh O'Donoghue

Legislation is required and it will be brought to the Government and the Oireachtas by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government.

Deputy Robert Dowds

When will that happen?

Mr. Niamh O'Donoghue

I do not know. There is much ongoing work and my Department is heavily involved in trying to assist the framing of the issue because of our experience of the rent supplement scheme and creating the kind of structures that might make the housing assistance payment a viable solution for local authorities. The Deputy will see developments sooner rather than later, with the expectation that some of the process will be piloted in early 2014.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Councils are trying to set up long-term agreements with private landlords. Is Ms O'Donoghue aware that there are certain disadvantages because of the bureaucracy involved in the system? From anecdotal evidence in my constituency, this may prevent deals which would be to the long-term advantage of tenants.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I am not so aware; I would not be aware of it.

Deputy Robert Dowds

A number of private landlords operate through auctioneers and so on and there is an incentive for auctioneers not to encourage them in that direction. It is important that there be an awareness that it may be more difficult to set up long-term agreements.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

We can feed that information into the consideration of the group. We would not necessarily have had that information, but we can bring it to attention.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I just wanted to draw the matter to the Secretary General's attention. It was caused by a failure to provide enough council housing over the years. Does the Department monitor the number of rental properties available? We may get to a stage where there is an insufficient number of rental properties available for those on the housing list and there is not enough council housing being built. I am concerned about both matters, even though I know that the Government would like to invest more in this area.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

For the purposes of rent supplement, part of the information that feeds into the review is whether there are properties available within a particular geographical area at the limits about which we are talking. As it changes over time that information will feed into the review process.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I wish to return to an issue on which Deputy McDonald touched. I am concerned that there is insufficient examination of rental properties where State money is paid to cover the rent. I was glad to hear the Secretary General say there was some sort of review group. It is important that robust proposals result from the process because substandard housing is a serious problem. One or two estates in my constituency have been seriously dragged down. In one estate 70% of the houses are rented out and some of them are in an appalling state, but most of the tenants receive rent supplement. I am appalled that our money goes towards renting substandard properties. Can the Secretary General do anything more to alleviate my fears about the damage caused in renting substandard housing?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I understand the concerns of the Deputy and my answer might sound very bureaucratic. My Department is charged with trying to support an individual through the provision of income support. We are not responsible for standards of housing; other agencies have that responsibility. It behoves us to work as closely as possible with the agencies involved to ensure there is communication and synergy between the two. That means that if we become aware that accommodation is substandard, we take the appropriate action to make sure others are aware of it and there are health and safety or local authority inspections, as required.

Deputy Robert Dowds

The Secretary General has mentioned that councils have a responsibility in that regard.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I am not aware of it, but perhaps that is due to my ignorance. I suspect that the information would have come my way if was available. I am not aware of councillors taking an active role in that regard. Can the Department encourage them to do so?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

The RAS has councils operating in the private marketplace.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I accept that is a little different.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

The housing assistance payment will expand that activity considerably.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Yes.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Obviously, I cannot answer for what councils do, but, to the best of my knowledge, they have a programme of inspections. We will reflect the concerns raised by Deputies Dowds and McDonald back to our colleagues in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and see what we can do to work more closely.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I am seriously concerned about slums developing, even in relatively new housing estates, which is not good for anybody. Given that so much State money is being invested, it would be far better to ensure better outcomes. For example, there is a view that no more than 30% of houses in a private estate should be rented. We should try to maintain that proportion.

I have further queries. I have read the report and it seems that there were few rental agreements in place. Why? How can the matter be rectified?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

The Comptroller and Auditor General's audit found that a copy of the agreement was not kept on file in particular instances. That does not necessarily mean that the copy of the agreement was unavailable for consideration at the time.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Can we insist on the agreement being kept on file, given that State money is being used?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

The Comptroller and Auditor General has made this specific recommendation in this space. One of the things we have said is that there are a number of aspects where we need to have proof of tenancy and have it on file for further examination. Again, it is an item at which the working group has been looking and in terms of the training provided for the community welfare officers on the consistency of records, files and necessary documentation to be kept. We are having regard to the Comptroller and Auditor General's recommendation. One of the points to bear in mind is that it is ideal to have the tenancy agreement. However, it may not always be the tenancy agreement but something that gives us information of similar standard. We keep some documentary evidence on file. We take the matter seriously and it forms part of the working group's agenda.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Can the Department insist on this happening before tenancy is taken up?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

One of the things we did, on foot of our experience, was to redesign the claim form. Perhaps we referenced this in the documentation returned to the committee. The claim form requires the landlord to give us far greater information on the property than ever before. That goes a long way towards addressing some of the concerns expressed. We are conscious of the fact that we did not have that kind of information in every instance.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I shall return to the subject of substandard housing. Is it not possible to block arrangements involving substandard housing such as through withholding deposits?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

If a local authority advises us that accommodation is not of the appropriate standard, we will not agree to rent supplement being paid.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Okay. Therefore, I really need to put pressure on councils to do something about the matter.

Disruptive tenants are a problem. Social housing was never meant to be a long-term option and I know this it is not always done as successfully as either the county councils or I would like. There is a system in place to deal with anti-social tenants. In some instances involving private rented accommodation, it can be appallingly difficult to make progress in dealing with anti-social tenants. The lives of other residents who may be tenants or owner-occupiers can be made hell in certain instances. I can cite half a dozen cases where people in my constituency are going through hell. For example, there are serious drug dealers who are willing to endanger the lives of others. The other residents are terrified of protesting and believe they cannot use the PRTB's mechanism. This issue must be tackled.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

There is a difficulty with trying to enforce it through a scheme. The rent supplement scheme involves a contract between the Department and the individual, but the contract between the individual and the landlord is separate. Nobody wants to see a situation where the State subsidises somebody who is engaged in socially unacceptable behaviour.

Deputy Robert Dowds

It does happen.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

The tenancy agreement is between the landlord and the individual and there are a number of avenues available to landlords, whether through the PRTB, the Garda Síochána or the courts. Where a housing authority has provided housing to an individual and rent supplement is being paid, we are empowered to suspend or disqualify rent supplement. The best way of creating this as part of the agreement is when the longer term accommodation arrangements move into the new structure being put in place, the housing assistance payment, HAP.

Deputy Robert Dowds

With regard to rent ceilings, I was here for the interaction between Ms O'Donoghue and Deputy McDonald. It is an issue in my constituency but not to the same degree as in hers. Social welfare officers have drawn my attention to the inconsistency in some of the amounts payable. For example, a couple in my area are entitled to a higher level of rent subsidy than the equivalent of two single people. I forget the exact rate but there is some €100 in difference between what a couple receives as opposed to two single people. They drew that to my attention as being a problem for some people.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

As the Comptroller and Auditor General pointed out, the scheme is structured along particular lines. It is historic in terms of the segmentation. If there are issues, we can examine them. It has operated along these lines for some considerable time.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Can there be an examination of whether there are top-ups? It is a difficult matter to examine. Some work has been done on this and it has improved the situation but we should keep a close eye on whether levels of rent subsidy are appropriate around the country. One of my colleagues spoke about the difference between rent supplement in north Kildare and south Kildare and how levels need to be higher. The point has been taken on board to some degree but needs to be constantly watched because there are likely to be changes in that situation.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

A couple things can happen in that space. We started on the theme of how State agencies can operate in concert. A number of people have an interest in the area. We have an interest in terms of rent supplement, the PRTB has an interest in recording rents that are actually paid and the requirement on people to declare what is being paid to the PRTB, and the Revenue Commissioners have an interest in terms of what is being declared as income by the landlord. There are significant data exchanges between the three bodies at this stage and it allows us to identify inconsistencies in the information provided. In addition, we have taken powers and our inspectors have greater powers to visit landlords, even though our contracts are not with landlords, to verify the information in support of the rent agreement. We will be doing so and some of the visits have already taken place. We tend to use those resources in a targeted way. If there is information about a particular area where there is a problem, we will welcome it.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Can I provide Ms O'Donoghue with the name of a particular estate I would like her to examine? I do not want to say the name in the meeting.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

We can talk to the Deputy after the meeting. We will examine it.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I welcome Ms O'Donoghue. I have previously raised the issue of fraud. It is much easier to ensure money is not paid to people who are not entitled to it than trying to pull it back or reducing it and changing the criteria for people who are entitled to it. Is there a fraud project team set up with a person leading it?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

There are a number of dimensions to it. We have a control division within the Department, headed by a principal officer, and an assistant secretary has specific responsibility for national control policy.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I am talking specifically about fraud.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

It is to make sure payments are paid correctly or are not paid incorrectly, whether through fraud or in error. There are two dimensions to it.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Is there a specific person with no other responsibility other than to be a project leader on fraud?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

There is an inspectorate, the special investigations unit, SIU, headed by a principal officer, that is completely targeted at the detection of fraud. The person reports to the assistant secretary for control.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Is there a principal officer grade with overall responsibility?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes, with overall responsibility for the inspectors investigating serious fraud.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Who does this person report to?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

They report to the assistant secretary, who has responsibility for national control policy.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

How many assistant secretaries are in the Department?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

There are 13. Our structure has changed.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Does Ms O'Donoghue not consider fraud such a serious issue that it should be headed by someone at assistant secretary level?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

It is - the assistant secretary with control responsibility. Control is about combating fraud. The principal officer I am talking about has operational responsibility for the unit but the control policy is all about how we detect and deter fraud. The person has national responsibility but every assistant secretary with operational responsibility must give effect to the kind of control policy determined by the central unit.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I am looking for a crack unit that does nothing else but fraud.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

That is the SIU team.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Is that headed by a principal officer?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

How many people are in the team?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Ninety-one people.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Is that team based all over the country?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

In 2013 to date, how much has the team detected under the heading of fraud?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I do not have the figure but I am happy to make it available to the committee.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I think Ms O'Donoghue gave us the figure for 2012 on a previous occasion.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

The target for control savings for 2013 is €721 million.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

That is not all fraud.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

A proportion will be fraud. Of overpayments, an amount of 30-40% is attributed to fraud.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Is this a percentage of €700 million?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

No, there are two different matters. Control savings are payments that would have arisen had an intervention not occurred. An intervention stops something, such as the continuation of a claim or a claim being put in payment or matching information that changes what people are entitled to. Some of that is fraud, some is error and some is people not declaring changes in circumstances. They may have forgotten or deliberately omitted to do so. When we talk about control savings, we are not necessarily talking about attributing a specific amount to fraud.

We then have to look at the particular cases to see whether what gave rise to them was fraudulent or Department error.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Community welfare officers were transferred to the Department. They were being funded by the Department but they were employees of the HSE. How many of them have been transferred into fraud?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Every CWO has a control dimension to his or her work.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

We have had this discussion before.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Indeed.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I will give Ms O'Donoghue my perspective on this, which is very simple. We are dealing with this on the ground every day of the week. The vast majority of people getting social welfare payments go about it in the normal way. Many of them are struggling and are under an awful lot of pressure. However, there are abuses of the system. For example, 84,000 people were on rent supplement at the end of June this year. What is the average length of time a person is on rent supplement? Is it six months, a year, two years or three years?

The majority of people on rent supplement are totally above board but have fallen on difficult times. However, there is a very small cohort of people who crop up all the time - I am sure it is the same in every constituency - and they move from house to house. The landlords are as culpable as the tenants because they are renting dives and hovels. These people wreak havoc when they move into a neighbourhood. We cannot pull the rent supplement because it is not our role. We are making a payment to the tenant; we are only a conduit providing the funding to pay the rent. For the life of me, I cannot understand why the rent is not paid directly to the landlord, so he or she is held in some way accountable.

As Ms O'Donoghue is probably well aware, RAS has, by and large, worked for myriad reasons. Invariably, there are proper controls and the houses are of a very good standard. However, a small group causes untold havoc with the rent supplement scheme. The same names crop up all the time. It is unfair to the reputation of the scheme and to the people availing of it and it gives them a bad name. I have a major problem with that. For some reason, they appear to be able to abuse the scheme. I have no doubt this is nothing new to Ms O'Donoghue and she has heard it before but it appears to continue. One could pull rent supplement based on perhaps Garda reports and one could pay the rent supplement directly to the landlord. Something must be done. Is this new to Ms O'Donoghue?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

The scheme has grown beyond its objective, which was a short-term income support. Everybody recognises that it is in a space currently in which it was never intended to be. I welcome the Deputy's comments about the success of RAS, which provides further evidence that where accommodation needs are regulated and monitored, through the housing authorities, that is the appropriate way to deal with it.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

With due respect, many of these people will not get in under RAS because they will not pass the standards laid down under it. They stay on rent supplement in the long term. The scheme at that level is open to abuse.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

As I said earlier, the Government has very publicly stated that it wants to put in place the housing assistance payment to take over all of the longer-term rent supplement and to return rent supplement to its original intention. That inevitably will have to make changes to the rent supplement scheme. Some of the issues we have become alive to over the past number of years will have to feature in any consideration of that.

To correct the record, when the Deputy asked me earlier how many assistant secretaries there were in the Department, I could not remember, which is appalling. There are 13 members of the management board, which includes ten assistant secretaries.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I take Ms O'Donoghue's point about the principal officers. For the general public and for the vast majority of people who are claiming social welfare in the normal way, it does them a disservice. There is a perception that we have not got to grips with fraud. I would like to hear someone on the airwaves from the Department of Social Protection at assistant secretary level, who is heading up fraud, saying it is great if people are complying with the terms laid down.

However, side by side with the ordinary person who is on basic social welfare and who is barely getting by, there is an abuse of the system in various areas. Where people engage in anti-social behaviour and move from house to house, through rent supplement, and terrorise neighbours, that is an abuse of the system and it must be stopped. I would have thought the wherewithal was in Ms O'Donoghue's Department.

The CWOs do great work on the ground but they are curtailed in what they can do. I have brought this up before and I will do so again. When one gets a representation that there is a problem with a particular house, the occupant of which is in receipt of rent supplement, the Department could bring in the person and contact the landlord to ask what is going on. If the gardaí have been called, account could be taken of that and the rent supplement could be withdrawn until such time as the person agrees to normal standards of behaviour. I do not think that is too much to ask. Perhaps I am different from other colleagues, but I am hearing that it is an ongoing problem and that it never seems to go away. With a small amount of goodwill and effort by the Department at local level, in terms of the procedural rules, it would make a difference to the operation of the rent supplement scheme on the ground for a tiny cohort but it would have major positive ramifications for people living in those areas. Will Ms O'Donoghue look into that matter?

It is something about which I feel strongly because it comes up so often. Side by side with that is the extremely important matter of ensuring landlords are not letting houses under the rent supplement scheme which are hugely substandard. Once again, there is a commonality between the landlords and the tenants. The same landlords crop up as do the same tenants. It is just too frequent. If I ignored this issue I would not be doing my job as a public representative. Will Ms O'Donoghue look at putting-----

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

As I mentioned, one of the things is that there will be a lot of movement in this entire space because of the Government's requirement to create a housing assistance payment to move long-term beneficiaries into that. That inevitably means that we will have to look again at how we configure rent supplement-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

That will be under local authorities. It will not be the Department's responsibility.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

It will, but the point I am making is that the two systems will then operate side by side, with the rent supplement system returning to its original objective. In doing that, I think we need to look again at how we can take on board the restructuring of rent supplement in a way that might take some of the issues raised by the Deputy into consideration. We have to be aware that this will fundamentally alter the nature of the scheme.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

We need to look at the reality of what will happen when the 80,000 people who are on rent supplement are moved and differentiated. The good and normal people who are on that scheme will be moved on because it will be easy to accommodate them. The Department will be left with the cohort I am talking about. They will be left on the former rent supplement scheme unless the Department provides for certain controls, for example, by holding over or withdrawing the rent supplement. I accept that the Department does that on some occasions. When that happens, the tenant and the landlord should be pulled in and the Garda reports should be taken into account. People are perfectly entitled to stay on so long as they behave by normal standards, but that is not what is happening. Can I take it that the Department will look at that? The housing assistance payments scheme, which is a variation on the rental assistance scheme, will end up being taken over and looked after by the local authorities, rather than by the Department. I am talking about now. I would have thought that the Department, rather than saying there is nothing it can do about this matter, would have the wherewithal to issue a directive at local level to ensure it is taken seriously.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I would not like the impression to be created that we do not take this seriously. We do take it seriously, but we have to operate within the confines of the scheme.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The local community welfare officers take it very seriously.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I can assure the Deputy that everybody in the Department takes it seriously. It is not in our interests to be involved in anything that involves State money being applied in patently inappropriate circumstances.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Yes.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

However, we must have regard to what is the nature of the scheme.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Okay.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

If there are things we can do to change that, we can certainly look at them.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Great.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

The Deputy is quite correct when he says that the local authorities will be responsible for the housing assistance payment. They are in a better position than us to deal with housing provision in this space. The expectation is that we will continue to work very closely with the local authorities, regardless of whether the client is receiving rent supplement on a short-term basis or with the prospect of moving onto the housing assistance payment. We do not see ourselves as exiting from this space. We see ourselves as having a role to play. We will certainly be looking to have stronger links with the local authorities.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I have asked about the specifics of putting procedural controls in place at local level.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

We will certainly look to see what is possible within the confines of the scheme.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Okay. I appreciate that.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

As I have said, the dimensions of the scheme may change as the housing assistance payment comes on stream. We will look at the matter again in that space.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I appreciate that. I would like to ask a general question about the Department's commitments under the troika programme. What is the current position regarding the Department's implementation of the particular commitments that have been given? Ms O'Donoghue might give me a general overview of where that is at.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Obviously, there has been a programme of engagement with the troika since October or November of 2010. I think the Department has been engaged in quarterly meetings with the troika. We have serviced those meetings along with our colleagues from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, the Department of Finance and other Departments. There is a significant engagement by the Department every time the troika comes to visit. Three different areas are generally discussed as part of that. The first area of focus is the financial outlook for social welfare expenditure, which accounts for such a substantial element of Government expenditure. It involves an examination of whether what is actually happening on the ground mirrors what had been estimated or projected to happen. That process relates not only to social welfare expenditure, but also to PRSI income because that is the other side of the coin in terms of social welfare expenditure. The second area of focus tends to relate to activation measures and the commitments that were made in Pathways to Work. That process, which gives rise to a great deal of discussion of what might be possible, involves looking at trends in the live register and some of the issues I mentioned earlier in response to Deputy McDonald, such as the institutional reform that is required to bring the organisations and the services together in order to roll out the Intreo programme.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Yes.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Part of that requirement involves bringing together an integrated service and rolling it out in an holistic way to customers. That is part of the Government's agenda anyway. It is not just a matter of troika interest. It also involves engaging much more quickly with customers who need activation support and help and putting in place the kinds of resources and mechanisms that enable us to engage with customers as quickly as we can. Reference has been made to the question of whether the best way to make sure courses are designed to meet the demand we are seeing from our customers is to focus on community employment or to develop links with SOLAS and the educational training boards. All of that is in the activation space. There is a great deal of interest in that. There have been many detailed discussions about what we are positioned to do, what we are capable of doing, what our plans are and whether we are achieving the targets we have set out to achieve. The third area of focus tends to relate to the question of structural changes in the social welfare system. There has been a particular focus on payments to people of working age. Equally, there has been a focus on the housing assistance payment, which we have just been talking about, in light of its role and the role of rent supplement.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

When is that coming in? When does the Department expect that to be in?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

That is being led by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Okay.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I understand that legislation needs to be put in place. I think it is expected that the legislation in question will be brought to the Oireachtas before the end of this year, with a view to piloting arrangements being put in place early next year.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Yes.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I suppose those kinds of meetings normally last a number of hours over a number of days. They involve senior and top management from the Department. The Department's team is led by my colleague, Ms Vaughan, who is the deputy secretary. It is a serious piece of engagement. It is probably fair to say that every time we meet the troika, we have very robust discussions.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

No doubt.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

We are certainly called to account in terms of what we have committed to deliver. At the end of each visit, we tend to be given even more detailed targets relating to what the troika expects and the kind of progress it would like us to achieve over the period before the next visit. In general, it is fair to say that we have been able to acquit ourselves well in terms of arguing about what is being done and how it is being done. I refer to the changes that are being made. We have been able to demonstrate that a great deal of work is being done and attention is being paid in order to meet the agendas that have been set out. As I said, these are agendas that the Department and the Government would have been pursuing anyway because they make sense in an international context.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Has the troika set any specific targets for when it comes back for its next visit?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I am not sure that we have received the memorandum. It is an iterative process. The troika was here last week. I am not sure that we are aware of what might be involved when it next visits.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

How is the Department finding the roll-out of the JobsPlus scheme? How has it gone? Can Ms O'Donoghue give us an update on how it is going?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

As the Deputy is aware, it was launched in Waterford last week.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Yes.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

It has been active or live since 1 July. We have a few hundred. We know there is great interest in various efforts in areas throughout the country. As the Deputy is probably aware, we have employer engagement teams as part of the integrated service we now have in place. We have an employer engagement division. Specific people in each of our local divisions are responsible for engaging with employers. I will set out what we are doing at the moment in the context of the JobsPlus scheme. We are alerting employers to the availability of the scheme. We are encouraging dialogue about what the circumstances might be and what the reward is. We are certainly trying to ensure we hit the pilot target of 2,500 by the end of the year.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I wish to focus on the exceptional needs payments area of the supplementary welfare allowance. In 2012, a figure of €52.7 million was paid out for that. While that is a significant figure, it is important to note that it has dropped consistently since 2008, under almost every heading. This is good. On the general scheme, how is the money for exceptional and urgent needs paid out?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

It is paid out through the officers in the community welfare service, who operate either through our local office network or through clinics. What happens is that somebody presents and makes a claim. That claim is then processed and a payment made.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Is it the individual in the office, the officer, who gets to make that call?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes, because exceptional needs payments by their nature pertain to an exceptional event or expense with which somebody must deal. A degree of discretion is involved for the officer with regard to how that claim is validated and paid. We have done considerable work in this area since the community welfare service became part of the Department in 2011. A group of former community welfare officers looked at the range and scope of payments being made around the country and came up with guidelines for guiding principles to inform officers. However, it is critical to be aware that officers still have discretion.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Therefore, it is a kind of personal process. A person will come into the office, sit down face to face with the officer and go through the exceptional circumstances that require the payment. That officer will then, based on his or her judgment of the situation, make a call regarding payment.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes, depending on the nature of the reason the payment is required. If it is to meet a particular contingency or circumstance, some evidence may be required to support that. It all depends on the nature of the claim.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

How is the money then paid out. Is it paid by cheque or cash?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Currently, it is paid by cheque. However, the Department will move to different payment arrangements over the next number of years.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Will it move to electronic payments?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

What sort of a follow-up is there? When the cheque is given and the money is spent, are receipts provided to the Department?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

There is somebody here with me who is far better placed than me to talk about the process. If the Chairman allows, I will invite Mr. John Shannon, a former superintendent community welfare officer, to explain the process.

Mr. John Shannon

The decision will be made with the assistance of the guidelines on exceptional needs payments. Limits are also laid down in the guidelines. The Deputy asked about receipts. At the application stage, documentary evidence is provided with the application as to what is required. There might be two or three quotations for what is being applied for and a deposit is normally paid by the customer. The payment is then made to the customer or directly to the supplier, if the customer so wishes and signs a declaration to that effect.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Is Mr. Shannon saying the person seeking the exceptional needs payment is the customer?

Mr. John Shannon

Yes. The payment can be made to the customer, but it can also be paid to the supplier if the customer wishes.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Is the customer who receives the payment obliged to return and show proof of payment for whatever he or she requested the money for?

Mr. John Shannon

In some cases we ask that they drop in a receipt indicating they have made the payment, but not normally.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Is that a guideline - is it required or is it up to the officer in question to say he or she would like to see a receipt?

Mr. John Shannon

Yes, it would be up to the individual officer. If the payment was made directly to the supplier, that would be proof the payment went to the supplier. In some cases, some local community welfare officers might do a house visit subsequently to check an item was purchased and is in situ.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Is it at their discretion to do that?

Mr. John Shannon

Yes.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

In terms of an exceptional payment, if, for example, I needed to cycle to my job or to use a bike in performing my job and my bike was stolen and I did not have the means to buy another bike, would I be able to seek an exceptional payment for a bike because I needed it for work?

Mr. John Shannon

If the person had work, he or she would not be in a category that would be eligible to apply for an exceptional needs payment.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

What if it was part-time work?

Mr. John Shannon

Fine, if it was part-time work and the person was in receipt of a social protection payment also.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Yes, but that would be an example of something for which one could request a payment.

Mr. John Shannon

It would be very exceptional to provide assistance for a bicycle for going to work. We are generally talking about essential household items, etc. There is a list of items that are considered essential, but a bicycle would probably be considered a non-essential item.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Could the officer in that situation decide, based on the evidence of the story told or the situation? Perhaps the officer would know the person and decide it was an exceptional situation and that the person deserved to have the bike replaced.

Mr. John Shannon

Absolutely, yes.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Has Mr. Shannon the list of the items considered essential?

Mr. John Shannon

Yes, examples of the main reasons for making payments are for the purchase of household appliances, bedding, clothing and child-related items such as cots and prams. Payments are also made for household repairs and maintenance, funeral and burial expenses and confinement costs for attending hospital.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I have that list here and perhaps we will come back to it later. With regard to the payments made, is a record kept as to how much each individual officer authorises for payment over the course of a year?

Mr. John Shannon

Yes, it is recorded on the payment system and is recorded under the community office location and under the customer's PPS number. Therefore, one can see at a glance what the customer has received over the past number of years on the payment system.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

In terms of the detail of the level of expenditure, we are happy to provide to the committee the detail on the list of items and where they rank in terms of exceptional needs. I apologise if I have cut Mr. Shannon off in coming in to respond here. One advantage of the system is that because of the way this information is now being recorded, the community welfare officer or the person providing the service can assess a situation if somebody re-presents a case. We have a record on the system as to when payments were made. Therefore, if the person re-presents in a different office, the record is on the system and we know we have already made a payment.

Significant change has taken place since the scheme came to the Department and what we are talking about here is about the structures and controls we have put in place since 2011. Progress continues on that.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Can Ms O'Donoghue see, as a result of these improvements, how much individual officers allocate in payments? Can she get that breakdown also?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

There is a balance to be struck in regard to this and we must be careful about that. The entire purpose of a scheme like this is to allow an officer exercise discretion. However, within that, we must ensure that we continue to review and assess what is happening on the ground and whether there is consistency in the way in which that discretion is being applied. That should not be contradictory.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

So, the Department is monitoring to ensure that no officer is too much out of kilter in terms of how much is being allocated.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes. While all of the staff involved in administering the scheme operate out of local offices, we have a central policy unit in Sligo which constantly monitors expenditure and performance on the scheme across the country.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Does it monitor each office or each individual?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Each individual. One area of reform has received significant attention over recent years. When we got the group of community welfare officers to look at what was happening on the ground in regard to exceptional needs, it became clear there were very divergent practices, particularly with regard to paying people for first communion expenses. In some areas of the country there was no history or track record of exceptional needs payments being made for these, but in others modest or large payments were made. The group then came up with a view as to what might be appropriate and this was rolled out in 2012. This was changed again at the end of 2012 and now there is no specific provision for religious services. However, there is still discretion to make a payment for clothing. An officer can make a judgment in that regard, but within the guidelines that exist.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

The total being spent in this area in 2010 was just under €70,000 which dropped to just over €50,000 in 2012. That is a considerable drop. That has come from a mixture of the kind of work about which Ms O'Donoghue was talking, where officials look at different practices and investigate why they are happening, but is it also because of what the Department's fraud and detection unit has been doing also?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

There is obviously a heightened focus on control now that the community welfare service is part of the Department. We have three principal objectives. The first is to pay people what they are entitled to be paid; the second is to activate people of working age - if that is an appropriate verb to use - and the third is to apply controls in order that the right person receives the right amount of money. There is that tripartite focus across all of our activities.

By their very nature, exceptional needs payments occur by exception. They are demand-led and there is no budget cap. They are for unforeseen expenses and even the weather can have an impact, in terms of whether it is an urgent needs payment. During instances of flooding, it is precisely this service that was on the ground to provide immediate support for people who faced expenses in that regard.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Did any of these controls apply before 2011?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I am not saying that because the scheme was operated through a different organisation, namely, the HSE. As it is now part of the Department and the staff operating the scheme are part of it, the expertise, history and tradition of the Department, in terms of how it informs income support, are brought to bear on the scheme in a much closer way than would previously have been possible. We have standardised where it has proved possible to standardise. However, I am mindful of the fact that discretion has to be part of that service and that is held dear by those who traditionally worked in the service.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

That is absolutely fine if there are good controls in place to oversee how that discretion is being used, if such an idea is not contradictory.

I would like to run through the list of individual spending items in 2012. The first is new accommodation kit and I take it someone can apply for that only once.

Mr. John Shannon

That is correct. It is only paid when somebody is allocated local authority housing.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Is there a cap on it per person?

Mr. John Shannon

There is a list of caps per item. I can go through them, if the Deputy wishes.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Yes.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

We can supply the detail.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

That would be great, but I would like to see a few of the figures.

Mr. John Shannon

For example, there is a cap of €310 for a cooker, €140 for a fridge, €250 for a fridge freezer, depending on family size, €250 for a washing machine and so on.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

That is basic equipment that every household needs, but would it not already be in place when someone is moving into a local authority house?

Mr. John Shannon

No. There would not be a fridge or a cooker in local authority houses. There might be a range or some form of heating system, but white goods would not be provided in local authority housing.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Therefore, if Dublin City Council was to build housing, it would not kit them out like that.

Mr. John Shannon

No.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

If someone is moving into an existing-----

Mr. John Shannon

The previous tenants probably would have been the owners of the goods and taken them with them.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Therefore, each time that happens, a new tenant has to kit out a kitchen fully and so on.

Mr. John Shannon

These needs would be established through a house visit by the community welfare officer initially. If there are some goods already in the house, that is fine.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Would this be an example of an exceptional payment, where the officer would be almost obliged to make a visit prior to-----

Mr. John Shannon

Absolutely.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Household appliances are next on the list of exceptional payments. To what does this refer? If the microwave breaks down, do people receive a new one?

Mr. John Shannon

Household appliances would probably include utensils such as pots and pans, delph, cutlery and so on.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Would that be separate from the new accommodation kit?

Mr. John Shannon

Yes.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Moving to furniture-----

Mr. John Shannon

We would be talking about the kitchen table and chairs, bedding, a wardrobe, a chest of drawers and so on. It would all depend on family size and the number of dependants.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Are there different cap levels depending on family size?

Mr. John Shannon

Yes. If it is a family of two parents and two dependants, the payment will be for a double bed and two single beds, and so on.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Can Mr. Shannon provide me with some of the figures under this heading?

Mr. John Shannon

There is a cap of €120 for a kitchen table, €40 for each kitchen chair, €120 for single beds, €180 for double beds and €150 for a wardrobe.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

What clothing is covered by an exceptional payment if somebody is looking for adult clothing?

Mr. John Shannon

He or she could be applying for a payment for bedclothes because of a medical issue. The exceptional needs category covers an unforeseen expense that he or she cannot meet from his or her own resources. If it can be established that he or she can meet the expense from his or her own resources, then there is no contribution. However, the position changes if the community welfare officer is satisfied that he or she cannot meet the expense.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Apart from health issues, are there other examples of exceptional needs?

Mr. John Shannon

People could be moving into new council accommodation, depending on where they came from and what their issues are. We could have to cover items like bedding.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Does that come under the heading of adult clothing?

Mr. John Shannon

Clothing and bedding.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

The breakdown I have under the heading of clothing is for adult and child clothing.

Mr. John Shannon

If somebody's clothes were destroyed in a fire or a flood-----

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Would that be an exceptional or an urgent payment?

Mr. John Shannon

It would be an urgent payment if they were not in category, but it would be an exceptional payment if they were and if the person was in receipt of the social protection payment.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

If clothing is damaged by flooding and the person concerned is in receipt of a social welfare payment, he or she would apply under the exceptional payment heading.

Mr. John Shannon

Yes.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I now understand the distinction. Can applications be made for Confirmation or First Holy Communion dresses or similar clothing under the heading of child clothing?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

The point is that we have moved away from the varied practice across the country; instead, there is no separate provision for clothing related to a religious ceremony. There is a very limited amount of money - around €50 - for clothing for a child under a general provision. If it was an exceptional need, it might be applied for. However, it does have to be exceptional.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

If a person needed assistance to buy a First Holy Communion dress which was expensive, because it was an important occasion, that would be----

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

That would be considered by the officer.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

It is up to the officer to make the call. Again, Ms O'Donoghue is talking about the difference in the way officers were making that call in different areas.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

When we examined how the money was being spent, we discovered that there were different practices in different areas around the country. We have been trying to bring a standardised approach to it.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Is the Department achieving that standardisation?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Absolutely.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Under the heading of child-related expenses, we have pram or buggy and cot costs. Is there a cap on pram or buggy costs?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

There is a cap of €100 for a pram, buggy or cot. Where there are twins or two children, it is €150 for a double buggy.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Under general categories, we have travel costs at a figure of under €2 million. Can Ms O'Donoghue provide an example of an exceptional need under this heading?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Deputy McDonald spoke about people in direct provision accommodation. There are also people who because of medical needs might have to attend hospital or visit a relative in hospital. People who are in direct provision accommodation and who may be required to attend a medical appointment or attend hospital are assisted with their travel costs under that heading.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

The person might have to travel to Dublin for a certain reason.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Correct. It would also cover prison visits if a family member was in prison.

It is travel for those kinds of circumstances, as opposed to ongoing daily travel.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

The household budget is €176,000. I am not sure what that means. Is that where someone has budgeted poorly?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I am not sure what the Deputy is reading.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

It is a list from the annual statistical information reports, published by the Department. Under the heading, general, it lists other travel costs, insufficient means, heating, lost and stolen money and household budget, making up a total of €8.6 million.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

It is a discretionary scheme to provide funding for people who have unforeseen circumstances. They will by their nature be different in different localities.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I am curious about the household budget element.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I do not have the detail here. I will get it and send it to the Deputy.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

There is a line here which refers to "other" and the amount is just under €3 million. Could Ms O’Donoghue get some detail on what that involves too?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes. The kind of things listed there would be relatively common across the network, and other payments will arise on an exceptional basis which are once-off and are not comprehended in that list. I will get the detail.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Thank you. I would like to see it. I would also like to clarify the distinction between urgent needs payments and the exceptional payments. Are they to cover events such as flooding or fire?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes, they tend to arise where there is a particular disaster, for want of a better word, where somebody is not receiving a social welfare payment but is suddenly faced with a cost that he or she must cover immediately and perhaps does not have the means. In many instances those urgent needs payments would be recouped when somebody goes back to work or gets their insurance claim, or whatever the case may be.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Is there a system to follow that up, to ensure that when the insurance kicks in three or four months later the money comes back into the system?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

It is quite a low figure, €189,000 in 2012.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes, that is because many people have household insurance and so on and that kicks in.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Is that the figure that was paid out?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I think that is the gross figure.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Does that include the money that is recouped?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I am not sure whether it is net or gross. I will have to clarify that. I understand the point.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

It would be good to clarify that, to get a better sense of how many people access the fund.

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

I have just been told it is a gross figure.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Does that include all the money paid out before some was recouped?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Do we know yet what has been recouped?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Of that sum, no.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Does that mean that the actual amount paid out could be much lower?

Ms Niamh O'Donoghue

Yes, indeed.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

Thank you.

Chairman

Is it agreed to dispose of Vote 38 - Social Protection: Chapter 24 - Supplementary Welfare Allowance? Agreed.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 2.43 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 19 September 2013.