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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Jun 2014

Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin (Secretary General, Department of Health) and Mr. Tony O'Brien (Director General, Health Service Executive) called and examined.

I ask witnesses, those in the Visitors Gallery and committee members to ensure their mobile phones are switched off because they interfere with the sound transmission.

Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the provisions in Standing Order 163 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Dr. McLoughlin, Secretary General, Department of Health, and ask him to introduce his officials.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I am joined by Ms Fiona Prendergast, finance officer; Mr. Matthew Collins, principal officer with responsibility for assessing eligibility, and Mr. Paul Howard, parliamentary affairs unit.

I also welcome Mr. O'Brien from the HSE and ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I am joined by Mr. John Hennessy, national director for primary care services; Mr. Stephen Mulvany, chief financial officer; Ms Valerie Plant, assistant chief financial officer; and Mr. Paddy McDonald, assistant national director of finance.

I ask the representatives of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to introduce themselves.

Mr. Barry O'Brien

I am from the public expenditure section of the Department.

Mr. David Feeney

I am from the reform and delivery office in the Department.

I invite the Comptroller and Auditor General to introduce his report and the accounts.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Net expenditure of €239 million was incurred on the Vote for health in 2012. A saving of €86 million was achieved on the €326 million net expenditure provided for in the Estimate. The outturn was around 74% of the net amount provided. The outturn relative to budgeted expenditure amounts included a 43% underspend in the National Treatment Purchase Fund provision, a 41% underspend on hepatitis C and HIV compensation, a 20% saving in agency funding and a 52% underspend in the provision for inquiries, legal fees and settlements. The 2012 appropriation account for the HSE indicates that its gross expenditure for the year amounted to just under €14 billion. The outturn was marginally higher than the 2011 gross expenditure level but 7% below the HSE's peak expenditure in 2009. Appropriations in aid in 2012 amounted to €1.49 billion.

The outturn for the HSE's Vote for 2012 was close to the amount provided by Dáil Éireann in the Appropriation Act, resulting in a surrender of just under €23 million. However, this was achieved after provision of an additional €360 million by way of a Supplementary Estimate in December 2012. This represented an increase of 3% on the original overall Voted Exchequer provision for the year.

Estimates of Voted expenditure presented to Dáil Éireann for approval should reasonably accurately represent the amount expected to be spent on each of the related services. In effect, the Estimates serve both as annual budget allocations by Dáil Éireann for individual services and as cash limits which Departments and offices are not permitted to exceed. In each of the last five years the HSE has sought a Supplementary Estimate as a result of emerging budget overruns. This raises concerns about the effectiveness of its budget planning and budget management. Chapter 21 examines the budget outturn in 2012 by category of expenditure and income and the main factors that gave rise to the budget overruns.

Two thirds of the supplementary provision in 2012 was for increased spending on medical card and community services. The outturn for these services was €2.76 billion, €238 million or 9.5% above the original Estimate for the year.

The original budget for hospital and community services was exceeded by €147 million and there was a shortfall of over €100 million on the receipts side owing to the delay in the enactment of legislation to amend the basis for charging private patients and the failure to achieve targeted improvements in the timeliness of collection of payments for the treatment of private patients from the health insurance companies.

The Estimates for the HSE for 2012 do not appear to have taken sufficient account of the underlying cost drivers in some key expenditure areas. Budgeting for future periods is inevitably subject to error because of inherent uncertainty and factors that may be outside the budget holders' control. Nevertheless, as a general rule, Estimates presented to Dáil Éireann for Voted services should be underpinned by an analysis of relevant trends and realistic assumptions about likely outcomes for the budget period. Key budgeting assumptions should be stated. For example, the budgeted medical card expenditure should be based on the projected number of medical card holders in each category and the projected average annual cost for such card holders. These would be used as benchmark values in monitoring the outturns which should help to improve subsequent budgeting.

Chapter 22 which deals with eligibility for medical cards was previously considered by the committee at its meeting on 14 November 2013.

At the end of 2012 the scheme was helping in providing medical support for an estimated 43% of the population. The cost of the scheme in 2012 was €1.7 billion, accounting for approximately one euro in every eight spent by the HSE.

Eligibility for a medical card is, in the main, determined by a means test based on the applicant’s income and certain relevant household outgoings. The HSE also has discretion to award a medical card if not doing so would result in undue hardship. Medical cards have a fixed period of validity, normally three or four years. Subject to continuing eligibility, medical cards are renewed on expiration.

The examination identified shortcomings in the HSE’s application of controls in 8% of a sample of medical card applications approved in 2012. In 4% of cases medical cards had been approved in circumstances where the evidence on file suggested the applicant had not, in fact, satisfied the means test eligibility criteria. In the other 4% of cases no documentation or inadequate documentation of outgoings had been provided. Additional guidance and staff training, as well as a more formal process for supervisory review of medical card approvals, should ensure specified controls are applied.

Around 5% of new medical cards in 2012 were awarded on discretionary or hardship grounds, taking account of the individual’s economic and social circumstances and the level of illness and related costs. Our review of a sample of medical cards awarded on a discretionary basis found that in a majority of cases the medical cards had been awarded on the basis of significant expenditure in relation to medical costs. The audit found that, while letters from the GP provided details of the illnesses of household members, there had generally been no attempt to quantify the medical costs involved or otherwise provide evidence that these costs would cause financial hardship for the applicant or his or her family. In 2013 the HSE introduced a new form for completion by GPs which required the GP to specify the normal number of GP visits and the type of medication required. This should provide a better basis for identifying the medical costs burden on applicants.

In 2012 the HSE issued around 366,000 renewal notices to medical card holders whose cards were due to expire. Some 70% of cases involved self-assessment, with applicants being asked only to confirm that the relevant circumstances had not changed. In the remaining cases a full review of eligibility, comparable with an initial application, was conducted. This involved the production of original or copies of documentation. Across both groups, almost 11% of medical card holders had not responded to the renewal notice by May 2013 and their medical cards lapsed as a result. A further 1.9% of medical cards were not renewed because it was established that the medical card holder had died. Of the remainder, over 94% had their eligibility confirmed as before or had their medical card upgraded to a full medical card instead of their previous GP visit card. Some 1.7% had their eligibility reduced from a full medical card to a GP visit card, while 4% were deemed not to be eligible for either form of medical card.

During 2012 the HSE also reviewed around 40,000 medical cards where the card holders had not accessed medical services for periods of 12 months or more. Eligibility was removed in just under 40% of these cases. By definition, these cases had not recently resulted in payments for prescriptions or other items but capitation payments to their GPs would have been incurred. On the other hand, the cancellation of medical cards that are effectively unused would probably not yield high savings.

Overall, the available evidence suggests there is a material level of ineligibility in the medical card system. However, the financial implications of this ineligibility have not been reliably established. The HSE has not yet developed a reliable estimate of the underlying level of excess payments in the medical card system. I have recommended, therefore, that it initiate a cyclical programme of reviews of eligibility in respect of random samples of medical card holders. This would allow a reliable baseline estimate of the scale of excess payments to be identified. Tracking changes in the levels of excess payments year on year would allow the HSE to evaluate the effectiveness of its overall control strategy and identify the key drivers of excess payments.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I am here with my colleagues, Ms Fiona Prendergast and Mr. Matt Collins, to deal with the Appropriation Account and the 2012 annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General in respect of Vote 38 - Department of Health. The director general of the Health Service Executive, Mr. Tony O’Brien, will address Vote 39 and chapters 21 and 22 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report.

Let me set out in my opening statement the main points in the 2012 accounts as they pertain to Vote 38. Funding is allocated to the Department of Health under Vote 38. Through this Vote, funding is also allocated to bodies under the aegis of the Department such as the Mental Health Commission, the Food Safety Authority and the Health Information and Quality Authority. The 2012 provision – current and capital - for Vote 38 was almost €330 million, while the outturn was €244.5 million, a saving of over €85 million overall. The 2012 provision for current expenditure was €314 million, while the outturn was €237 million, a saving of €77 million. In 2012 some €70 million of this saving was used to offset the Supplementary Estimate requirement in Vote 39, Health Service Executive, thereby reducing the call on the Exchequer. The 2012 provision for capital expenditure was some €16 million, while the outturn was €7 million, a saving of €9 million. The majority of this saving was due to a delay in progressing the clinical research facility at Galway University Hospital. Of the 2012 provision for current expenditure, almost €130 million was provided for bodies under the aegis of the Department. Savings of some €42 million were made in this area, mainly due to the change in the remit of the National Treatment Purchase Fund.

The 2012 provision for the administration of the Department of Health was just over €32 million, while the outturn was just over €29 million, a saving of some €3 million or almost 10%. On the 2012 provision for compensation payments to people affected by hepatitis C and for statutory and non-statutory inquiries and legal fees, there was an underspend of just over €30 million. This can be attributed to the difficulty in determining when settlements will be made or paid but also simply to other legal costs not materialising when envisaged.

In 2014 there is a provision of €190 million for current expenditure and €16 million for capital expenditure under Vote 38. This is a reduction of 17% or €42 million on the 2013 provision and 38% or €124 million less than the 2012 provision. For information, the overall 2014 provision for the Health Service Executive is almost €13 billion. This comprises an Exchequer contribution of over €11.5 billion and appropriations-in-aid of just over €1.4 billion. The capital expenditure portion of the 2014 provision is €374 million.

There are a number of reasons for the reduction in budget provision in Vote 38. Obviously, like all Departments and Government agencies, further efficiency savings were required and these have been factored into the allocations to agencies under the aegis of the Department. Furthermore, the Department’s administrative budget provision has been reduced to take account of the Haddington Road agreement. The provision for legal costs and statutory inquiries has similarly been reduced, again taking account of the need for efficiencies and bearing in mind previous underspends.

In 2013 the purchasing functions of the National Treatment Purchase Fund were transferred to the special delivery unit in the Health Service Executive. Thus, the budget provision remaining in Vote 38 relates mainly to the administration of the office, pending consideration of its future role in the context of the structural reforms set out in Future Health - A Strategic Framework for Reform of the Health Service 2012 – 2015.

In addition to these changes, €22 million was transferred to the Health Service Executive for the drugs initiative as part of the 2014 Revised Estimates Volume. The funding will support around 220 drugs task force projects. Up to now, the HSE was a channel through which the Department allocated the funding, with separate reporting, accountability and monitoring arrangements. The allocations will continue to be based on drugs task force recommendations and will continue to focus on tackling the drug problem. The transfer of operational responsibility for funding the administration of drugs task force projects to the HSE is a key priority in the HSE's primary care division operational plan 2014.

As members will be aware, the Health Service Executive (Financial Matters) Bill 2013 is expected to be enacted before the summer recess. It provides for the disestablishment of the Health Service Executive Vote and the funding of the HSE from the Vote of the Minister for Health with effect from 1 January 2015. The Department is making preparations for this change, together with the Health Service Executive. The return of the Vote to the Office of the Minister for Health will enhance accountability and is one part of the reform of the health service, as set out in Future Health - A Strategic Framework for Reform of the Health Service 2012 – 2015.

In addition, I am pleased to advise members that a detailed business case for a new finance operating model, including the procurement of a new integrated financial management system, IFMS, for the wider health service has recently been submitted to my Department. The business case has been endorsed by the Department for further consideration by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. The project is a top priority for my Department and the Health Service Executive.

Finance reform is the highest non-clinical priority of the HSE. The health system is committed to introducing new financial management practices to improve efficiency and effectiveness and enable increased transparency across the health economy. This new model will fundamentally transform how financial management is delivered. The successful delivery of the reforms set out in Future Health is largely dependent on having robust financial systems, reporting and organisational design in place to meet future requirements, as current practices are not fit for purpose or sustainable in the merging landscape. I will be happy to take questions.

May we publish Dr. McLoughlin's statement?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

Yes.

I invite Mr. O'Brien to make his statement.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I thank the Chairman and members for the invitation to attend to discuss the 2012 annual report and Appropriation Accounts for Vote 39 and chapters 21 and 22. We submitted a range of information and documentation to the committee in advance of the meeting. I will, therefore, confine my opening remarks to a number of specific issues.

On the issue of financial performance, it is important to reiterate that each year in developing its approach to the annual service plan the Health Service Executive sets out the likely cost of running the services for the upcoming year and specifies foreseeable risks likely to increase costs in that year. It must be noted that the HSE does not control the process which leads to the final allocation of its budget. The amount allocated for HSE expenditure is decided, among other things, against a backdrop of national budgetary objectives and prevailing macroeconomic conditions. The final Estimate provision allocated to the HSE is, in effect, determined outside it following the conclusion of the Estimates process.

HSE net expenditure fell by €931 million or 6.8% between 2009 and 2012, with a further reduction in 2013, bringing the cumulative five year reduction to €1.066 billion or 7.8%. Despite considerable media and other commentary regarding HSE budget overruns, in the six years from 2008 to 2013, during which the HSE received €71.277 billion in a total net Vote, it received a net Supplementary Estimate of under €2 billion. Of this figure, €1.37 billion or 69% is related to Exchequer and other items not within the control of the HSE. A further €475 million or 35% is related to medical cards, drugs and other demand-led services provided by the Primary Care Reimbursement Service, PCRS. The remaining figure of €144 million or 10% is related to core service areas within the HSE's direct control and represents 0.2% of the aggregate net Vote for the period.

Members will be aware that expenditure in acute hospitals increased by €52 million or 1.3% between 2012 and 2013. It is important to note, however, that net expenditure in acute hospitals has fallen considerably in cumulative terms, by €515 million or 11.6% in the five year period 2009 to 2013. Despite this decline in expenditure, combined inpatient, day case and births activity has increased by around 15%, bed days used have reduced by around 10% and emergency department presentations have increased by approximately 6%. As outlined in written submissions for the most recent completed finance year, 2013, separate from Exchequer related and other items outside the control of the HSE, the position is that it delivered a €25 million surplus. This figure is made up of deficits on core services, primarily hospitals, and surpluses on capital and other services. In addition, there was a deficit of €96 million in PCRS expenditure, namely, medical cards, general practitioner fees, drugs and other demand-led schemes, for example, the dental treatment service scheme. This indicates a combined €71 million deficit in the areas within HSE control and the PCRS, which equates to 0.6% of the net original Vote.

I emphasise that there is full clarity on the components of the cost overrun in the Primary Care Reimbursement Service for 2012. This includes the residual €90 million referenced in the chapter. Line by line detail in this regard has been provided for the Comptroller and Auditor General. Accordingly, it is important to stress that there is no unexplained expenditure. All public funds were appropriately accounted for and the Health Service Executive has provided a full analysis of expenditure for the Comptroller and Auditor General in respect of 2012 and all previous years.

As the Secretary General noted, the finance reform programme is a key element of overall system reform in the health service. Following detailed work in recent months involving a wide range of health service staff involved in finance related activity, a new operating model for finance has been designed and agreed. A business case has been developed and submitted to the Department of Health for approval to procure a new integrated financial management system for the health service. Implementing a new financial operating model will provide the opportunity to transform the financial management of the health system and support the delivery of key elements of the reform agenda of Future Health, including introducing hospital groups and the money follows the patient principle. I consider this programme to be the single most important non-clinical priority of the health service for this year.

On section 38 agencies, members will be aware from the update provided in early March that work has been ongoing with all section 38 service providers to assist them in reaching compliance with Government pay policy. An internal review panel, comprising nominated members of the leadership team, has concluded the process of reviewing the business cases made for the continued payment of allowances. The panel's report has been furnished to the committee.

Agencies have been advised that it is their responsibility as the direct employer to implement the recommendations made. A period of up to three months to 1 July has been provided to allow each agency to make the necessary arrangements to cease the payment of all unapproved remuneration and ensure appropriate risk mitigation measures are put in place to deal with issues as they arise. On the completion of the compliance process, a final report, detailed by agency, will be provided for the committee in early July, at which time it is expected that all agencies will have demonstrated full compliance with Government pay policy.

I advise the committee that the interim administrator to the Central Remedial Clinic, Mr. John Cregan, has completed his work and I have received a report from him which I am considering. Once I have fully considered the findings and recommendations made in the report, I intend to issue it to the committee. It is hoped this will happen early next week. At this juncture, however, I can advise the committee that a new board has been appointed to govern the clinic and that a new chief executive officer has been appointed to manage the day-to-day affairs of the Central Remedial Clinic. Furthermore, service arrangement obligations have been met and there are no apparent obstacles to the Health Service Executive and the Central Remedial Clinic entering into similar arrangements for the foreseeable future. In addition, the CRC has sound financial systems in place. I thank Mr. Cregan for his work as interim administrator. I am certain that the new governance arrangements that have been put in place will secure and renew what is a very important service for the clients and their families.

With regard to section 39 agencies, as members are aware, these agencies are distinctly different from section 38 agencies as they are not directly bound by the Department of Health's consolidated salary scales. Notwithstanding this, it is important that all agencies in receipt of public funding have due regard to overall Government pay policy. The Health Service Executive's director of human resources wrote to the chief executive officers of the section 39 funded agencies on 10 December 2013 stressing the importance of each such organisation having due regard to overall Government pay policy in respect of the remuneration of their senior managers.

Since the introduction of the national standard governance framework for the non-statutory sector, the HSE has required all agencies covered by a service arrangement, both section 38 and section 39 agencies, to complete a template setting out details of the remuneration arrangements for senior managers who are defined as grade VIII and above or equivalents.

The exercise in respect of section 39 agencies has been undertaken in two phases. Phase 1 looked at the not-for-profit agencies which receive in excess of €5 million annually in grant assistance, of which there are 23, while phase 2 looked at those agencies which receive between €3 million and €5 million in grant assistance annually, of which there are 16. While this work is at an advanced stage, a number of the organisations in question have recently forwarded additional updated information on the pay arrangements, etc., that apply and which, I understand, have been provided for the committee. This information is being validated against the original information provided for the HSE and any necessary change will be incorporated in the HSE's final report on the validation exercise. The report, when finalised, will be available to the committee.

On the issue of medical cards, members will be aware of the Government's decision to develop an enhanced policy framework for medical card eligibility to take account of medical conditions, in addition to the undue hardship test. The HSE has established an expert panel to examine the range of conditions that should be brought into consideration. It acknowledges that this process may include the development of a new legislative framework for the operation of the medical cards scheme. While the task set for the expert group is an extremely complex one, it has been requested to furnish a report to me by September.

In the meantime, the HSE has suspended reviews for existing medical cards that had been granted on a discretionary basis and no further reviews of such cards will commence pending the outcome of the process to develop a new policy framework. Urgent measures are also being examined to provide for people with severe medical conditions who have recently lost medical cards. All other medical card reviews continue.

That concludes my opening statement.

I thank Mr. O'Brien. May we publish his statement?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Yes.

I welcome Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin and Mr. Tony O'Brien and their colleagues who are appearing before the committee. I acknowledge the work of health workers throughout the country and the importance of what they do for us and the efforts made to save money in these difficult times.

I will commence with the deficit. There was a deficit of €80.4 million at the end of March, of which the acute hospital sector accounted for €62.9 million. This contrasts with a deficit for the same period last year of €26.7 million. May I have an explanation for that? How does the HSE and the Department of Health expect it to pan out through the year, as there is a considerable difference, and what is being done to ensure the deficit does not get out of hand?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I will ask Mr. Stephen Mulvany to respond.

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

Clearly, as the director general has indicated, hospital expenditure has fallen in recent years. The reality is that it has not fallen by a sufficient amount to keep pace with the fall in the budget reduction. As the Deputy said, at the end of March it was €63 million over budget. Despite the fact that the HSE provided an additional budget of €50 million this year to hospitals and despite the efforts made to more closely link budgets to that underlying cost, sufficient resources were not available either this year or last year to provide them with an amount equal to their previous year's actual expenditure. The hospitals had a significant financial challenge this year and at the end of March they were €60 million over budget. Significant efforts are under way to bring that around. We should acknowledge the assistance of the-----

Like what, for example?

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

For example, the Haddington Road agreement gives us significant opportunities to reduce our costs and to do that safely. It is important to say that, as we put in the HSE service plan, we are seeking to ensure that our management of the safety and quality of services is put at least on a par with the management of our resource position. Each of those hospitals at local level, within its own management structure, is seeking to manage itself safely within the resources available to it and reduce its overall costs. In addition, the national division for hospitals is engaging, on a monthly basis, in performance management meetings to try to reduce that expenditure safely. The new national director for hospitals has sought additional cost containment plans from all hospitals in order to bring them towards break-even position. Those are due in this week. Separately, the director general has led a series of meetings with hospital board chairs, CEOs and clinical directors to give clear messages on the need for cost reductions with a view to bringing overall expenditure towards break-even before year ends. A significant effort is under way, bearing in mind that we have to look not only at the year-on-year position but at the position over the past five or six years.

During the past five or six years, hospital expenditure - while it has increased slightly, as the director general said, between 2012 and 2013 - has fallen by between 11% and 11.5%, but the issue is that the budget has fallen by more, and the reductions in expenditure are not keeping pace with that. In that period, productivity has effectively increased because more services are being provided. That the increases in productivity are not keeping pace with the falling resource is a constant struggle in continuing to provide safe services - which, we have been very clear in pointing out, is the number one priority. In terms of providing clear messages and clear direction around the prioritisation of issues to be managed and the hierarchy of accountability, all of these have been reiterated recently at the highest levels, and this will continue towards the year's end.

We are using every opportunity, including the benefits of the Haddington Road agreement, to get as close as possible to break-even in that sector, but it does represent 75% of our overall challenge. It is clear from our performance assurance report that there are examples of additional costs in the hospitals sector, such as in agency services - of which the vast bulk is clinical agency, and the vast bulk of that is medical agency - which are not indicative of a lack of cost control in terms of more doctors on the ground. It is indicative of price effect that the cost of agency services is going up and up. Overall, 95% of HSE payroll costs relate to directly employed staff; about 5% overall relate to agency staff and overtime. In hospitals that cost is higher, at closer to 10%, and it has increased. While we have dropped overtime in recent years, our agency costs are rising. Efforts are being made, particularly on the hospital side, in medical and other areas, to further reduce agency costs by looking at particular strategies after we have got the full benefit of the additional hours from the Haddington Road agreement. As many levers as we can apply are being applied to safely reduce that cost towards break-even.

Tied in with that is the €690 million target for savings this year. Is that realistic and to what extent has that been achieved so far?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Some of those savings are savings and some of them are targeted at core payments. Those which are set out in the service plan and in the Estimates would be achievable as a result of the increase in prescription fees or the effect of implementing reference pricing. Those things are delivering well. Essentially, 75% of that challenge is in hospitals and covers the areas Mr. Mulvany has referenced. Hospitals are dealing with increased pressure at the front door at the emergency end. They are dealing with challenges within the staffing space. The reason for the increased dependency on clinical agency services - and, therefore, the increased cost - is the twin challenge in some areas of attracting both consultant personnel and non-consultant personnel into permanent employment. Those areas in the hospitals which are dependent upon cost extraction are where we are most challenged.

The second area of recourse is that in the original €666 million there was a cost extraction from the Vote of €113 million which related to medical cards, of which €47 million was reversed by way of additional funding, but we have to fill the remaining gap from within our own resources, and that is also providing a challenge. Across the spectrum of the savings measure, some are working perfectly and others are much more challenging.

When that is juxtaposed against the overspend at the end of March, it is hard to tie those two together. Some of the hospitals had a greater overspend than others - for example, University Hospital Limerick had a significant amount, at 16%, whereas for St. Vincent's University Hospital it was only 6%. Can that be explained? Has the HSE conducted a specific examination of an individual hospital to see where savings might be made and also where extra money is required to be spent, particularly at the front line? I imagine such an examination would throw up useful information not only for that hospital but for hospitals in general. Has that type of comprehensive review been carried out for any hospital or for all hospitals? It strikes me that such an examination would indicate areas of waste and also areas where greater resources, presumably on the front line, would be required.

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

At different points in time, exercises such as that have been carried out for specific hospitals, either at the hospital's own volition or as part of an exercise. In recent years a significant exercise took place at Tallaght hospital to look at what had led to its deficit position and how that could be reversed. Over time, that deficit has largely been reversed. What the Deputy is referring to-----

If we take the Tallaght hospital example, what did it show in terms of where savings could be made and where extra funding was required?

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

I do not have the specific detail, but in reality it led to areas where the hospital could reduce cost and areas where additional funding was required, and that has been provided.

Can Mr. Mulvany not be specific? My suspicion as a lay person is that there is probably considerable room for savings on the administrative side and that there is probably a need for greater spending on some of the front-line services such as nursing.

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

My apologies. I introduced the example but I do not have all the specific details. However, I do know that the hospital in question reduced or practically eliminated all of its agency services last year. Dropping the agency services was a significant measure.

How did it manage to do that? Was it able to cover everything using regular staff?

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

It was through a combination of revised rosters, reviews of staffing arrangements and targeted recruitment. Again, we can provide the specific details if it is of assistance.

Obviously, we must be clear and focused on reducing administration costs to the absolute minimum essential. However, I caution against any simplistic assumptions that administration costs are in some way bad. We have significant challenges on the clinical side whereby we expect clinicians to carry out administrative duties. In some cases there is a need for targeted investment in administration. We may not have been especially good over the years in separating what is called administration from what people might understand as administration. Our administrative management costs include costs which other agencies would call professional and technical costs. We also include costs which relate very much to front-line administration staff. Let us suppose a person is on a mental health community team. The team secretary does all the reception work, answers the telephone to the public and ensures the staff get connected to the consultant, if necessary. That is an essential part of providing a mental health service in the community. The analogy applies to all our services and yet that is what is called administration. When most members of the public think of administration they think of back-office administration. For example, in the case of the primary care reimbursement service we can show that the cost of administering the entire system is approximately 1.2% of the budget it dispenses. Administration is an essential part of providing a health service.

Is Mr. Mulvany suggesting that the examination carried out on Tallaght hospital led to considerable efficiencies in how it was run and operated? Am I right in suggesting that?

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

It reduced costs and identified areas where additional resources were required. A similar examination of any hospital would bring the same result.

To what extent did the HSE try to spread that out across all the hospitals in the country and, if it did, why are there such differences between budget overspends in some hospitals over others?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Part of the explanation for the variability lies in the base position of the budget and its relationship with costs. Hospital budgets have developed over time in a way that is not entirely related to the demands hospitals face. There is still some residual impact on the way funds were allocated by health boards. I offer a good example. The North-Western Health Board was particularly strong in its community services but not so strong in its hospital services and its funding bias reflected that. When we did the moderate rebalancing that we carried out in 2013 in respect of hospital budgets it was necessary to make a significant adjustment in respect of Letterkenny and Sligo hospitals. Part of the story is that the underlying resource allocation is not demand-related. This is why the money-follows-the-patient initiative is so important because it will progressively enable the funding provided to hospitals to more closely relate to their demands and therefore to their costs.

Let us consider the Limerick group as an example. I imagine it is not a group that is overly burdened with administrative back-office functions. Much of the work is done externally now through health business shared services. It is probably a hospital that could do with more administrative staff rather than less, having regard to the impact on front-line services of clerks and so on who would fundamentally be able to change some of the workflow processes and skills mix. It would be unfortunate if the impression were gained that the hospital sector is administratively overly burdened. I reckon the reverse is probably true after the five or six years that they have been through.

Inevitably, I must ask Mr. O'Brien about top-up payments. I appreciate the comments that Mr. O'Brien made in his opening statement to the effect that he regards this as an important issue to be tackled and I am absolutely at one with him in that regard. To be clear, how many people are involved in these top-up payments? Are all the institutions involved section 38 institutions?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

They are all section 38 institutions, yes. There are 143 people involved.

I presume they are all on high salaries, without the top-ups.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

They are all above grade 8 and therefore they are all at the higher end of the salary threshold.

What of sort salary does grade 8 correspond to?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

It is approximately €80,000 or above.

They are all rather well-paid or seriously well-paid staff. How will the HSE's work on this pan out? Clearly, the situation must be resented by the staff in those institutions who are subject to the full rigours of Haddington Road and so on. It must be having a detrimental impact on the workings of those institutions because of bad feeling so on.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

We reported on the matter fully to the committee before Christmas following the initial presentation of the audit. There are 143 individuals involved. The fact that they are in receipt of an unauthorised payment is, in most cases, not their own doing. One must recognise that the responsibility lies with those who governed the institutions and who made the decisions to pay rather than the persons who accepted offers of employment at a rate that may have been above that which was approved by the HSE, the Department of Health or the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Naturally, it is fair to say that this will have been a difficult period for the individuals at the centre of the issue. I know that some have decided to leave the service and others have decided to reduce their pay in line with the approved pay.

Is Mr. O'Brien referring to those 143 people?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Yes. Some, as the committee members may have read in one of today's national newspapers, are asserting through their employers that they have a contractual entitlement to continue with the payment. In those cases, essentially, we have said to their employees that they must prove it. Obviously, if they can prove it, the matter will have to be discussed with the two relevant Departments. It is almost a non sequitur that if someone has a contractual entitlement, then he or she has a contractual entitlement, and we will have to work through what happens in those instances. There have been a wide variety of responses.

Are the top-up moneys actually coming from State coffers?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

In most instances the organisations maintain they are coming from privately generated income in the institutions concerned. That is a difficult issue because, if the institution is substantially funded from the public purse, it is difficult to be absolutely clear where the funds are coming from. Each of these cases is working its way through to a conclusion. In many instances the matter is already resolved. In other instances there are residual issues leading to straightforward resolution by the end of this month or, in some cases, to an examination of assertions of legal entitlement. These are coming to a conclusion as we speak.

I am keen for Mr. O'Brien to name some of the main institutions involved. I can probably guess many of them. Is there any way they could plead inability to pay on the grounds that the State is living beyond its means still, despite all the adjustments we have made?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Obviously, that will have to be examined on a case-by-case basis, based on the evidence put forward of the legal entitlement. We do not yet have any of that information and therefore it would be wrong to seek to prejudge it. Essentially, we are dealing with institutions in several cases which have asserted that there is a legal obligation to pay. At present we are asking them to show us the evidence. That evidence will be differentiated on a case-by-case basis. In some cases it may be solid and in other cases it may be not so solid. We will have to examine it on a case-by-case basis. It would be wrong for me to prejudge that until we have seen it.

I presume we are talking about some of the institutions that have been before the committee already, such as St. Vincent's University Hospital and the Central Remedial Clinic, although the CRC has probably changed at this stage.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

We describe the CRC as being in a special process in that it has gone through a very special process.

I appreciate that.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

St. Vincent's University Hospital, in fact, is the institution that famously told the committee it would swing around to compliance, and it is on the swing.

Are they still swinging towards compliance?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Very determinedly.

Is the determination on their part, the HSE’s part or on the part of both?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

At this point it is a mutual objective.

They are both in the revolving door.

Am I right in taking it that the majority of staff in those institutions are subject to the Haddington Road agreement?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

All public employees in section 38 institutions, which covers all of them, are subject to the Haddington Road agreement. To generalise, we found in the audit that the approved bit had been subject to the Haddington Road agreement, and in some cases so had the unapproved bit, but in other cases the unapproved bit had not been subject to the Haddington Road agreement.

Does that not give the HSE an angle, if some had been approved under the Haddington Road agreement?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

That presupposes that there is a basis for approving the extra bit. In some instances, of which I have a general knowledge, part of the case put forward is that they have now subjected the extra bit to the effective impact of the Haddington Road agreement in terms of the percentage reduction. These are variable. It is very live at the moment. We expect to bring it to a conclusion and to be able to provide this committee with a substantive and full report early in July. At that point the committee will have chapter and verse.

We will get the full picture then.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Yes.

I appreciate that. I thank Mr. O'Brien. While there have been some reductions in medical prices, it continues to be a source of amazement to the average man and woman that there is such a discrepancy between what people pay for drugs dispensed by pharmacists in Ireland and what they pay in the UK or Spain. Can Mr. O’Brien fill us in on the progress made in that regard? That would have a huge impact, given that the average medical card costs the State approximately €1,000 a year, three quarters of which is drugs rather than visits to the doctor. Any improvement would presumably make it much easier to meet budgetary targets.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I will pass that question to Mr. Hennessy but I would caution that the anticipated savings from those have already been extracted from the budget.

Mr. John Hennessy

The cost of drugs and medicines to the State under the primary care reimbursement service, PCRS, schemes -the medical card scheme and the drug refund scheme - runs to approximately €1.3 billion per annum. That is considerable expenditure. Arising from considerable controversy about the differences between drug prices in Ireland and other jurisdictions in recent years, an extensive medicines management programme has been put in place. The committee may already have been briefed on this. Over the past two years progress has been made in reducing the costs to the consumer and the State to quite a significant degree-----

Can Mr. Hennessy give us some figures on that?

Mr. John Hennessy

The agreement with the Irish Pharmaceutical Healthcare Association, IPHA, has made provision over a three year period for a reduction of approximately €400 million in cost.

What is the total?

Mr. John Hennessy

The annual expenditure is between €1.3 and €1.5 billion. The second significant measure was the legislation which provided for reference pricing. That has been happening in parallel with the IPHA agreement to reduce further the cost to the consumer and the Exchequer. The savings target for this year under reference pricing will amount to a further €50 million.

Why are medicines so expensive? People suspect that general practitioners, GPs, urge people to take particular brands. Does that have a bearing on the cost?

Mr. John Hennessy

I would say that it is a reasonably complex issue, one that has been tackled by the medicines management programme in the form of regular contact with GPs and the use of technology to remind GPs of the alternatives available through a pop-up message when prescribing, particularly to point out lower cost products that have a similar effect. Significant measures have been introduced. The degree to which prescribing patterns are influenced is arguable.

Can Mr. Hennessy examine that to establish the extent to which individual GPs are prescribing the cheaper alternative? I would not want them to do so in a way that would be detrimental to a person’s recovery.

Mr. John Hennessy

We can identify departures from what would be recommended prescribing patterns. We deal with them under two headings. The reference pricing approach for interchangeable products applies a direct control in that we are reimbursing only the lower cost product. If the GP continues to prescribe a branded product the Exchequer is not liable for the difference in cost. The second approach is aimed at GPs through Professor Barry's programme, which encourages doctors through better information on the recommended products, as opposed to the higher cost product. That is an extensive programme which involves meeting large groups of GPs to influence their prescribing patterns.

Is Mr. Hennessy saying that if a GP prescribes a more expensive item unnecessarily, the HSE will refuse to cough up the full cost? Who takes the hit there?

Mr. John Hennessy

That occurs where we are permitted to do that. The legislation passed in 2013 provides for the Irish Medicines Board to declare products as interchangeable and once that has been done we are empowered to set a reference price at the lower cost.

Who takes the hit if a GP continues to prescribe the more expensive item? Is it the patient or the chemist?

Mr. John Hennessy

Unless the GP can make a case for the continued prescription of the higher cost product for a particular reason, the patient takes the hit, if he or she wants to stay on the higher priced product.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Many of the branded producers have responded by reducing their prices too.

Mr. John Hennessy

That is the pattern we have seen over the past 18 months. The companies bring their prices down to the reference price.

How would that operate in the case of someone on a medical card? Surely in that case the State takes the hit?

Mr. John Hennessy

The medical card situation is different in that the patient is not directly incurring a cost for prescribed medicines other than the prescription charge provided for.

Therefore the State takes the hit.

Mr. John Hennessy

It is a benefit to the State because the reference pricing brings down the reimbursable price to the recommended product. It is not an extra hit or charge on the State. It is a saving. That is how we achieve our savings targets.

If a GP recommends a particular brand for a patient, which is not the cheapest brand but the patient is on a medical card, how does that not hit the taxpayer?

Mr. John Hennessy

That would happen perhaps in a very exceptional case in which a medical case was made for a different product than the reference price product and would represent a charge on the State.

Presumably, Mr. Hennessy will work on that issue. It seems to be an obvious area in which to reduce costs without an adverse effect on patients, which would be to everyone's benefit.

I have a question about the current position on discretionary medical cards and how they are being dealt with. I do not believe everyone should receive a discretionary medical card if they have a serious condition because some people can clearly afford to pay. Is there a need for a local input in that regard, which was the case in the past? If an administrator is dealing with an issue from afar, it is very difficult to fully appreciate the individual circumstances of any given person.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I refer to the Deputy's question about pricing. The savings this year from reference pricing are on target at about €50 million, which is a substantial benefit.

On the question of medical cards, including discretionary medical cards, to be clear, a person who wishes to apply for a discretionary medical card can still do so. Over 5,000 such medical cards have been issued this year and during the period of review and the suspension of reviews we have not suspended the scheme. Those who have particular needs arising from the cost of treating a medical condition are still eligible to apply and will be granted a medical card if they qualify.

To answer the Deputy's specific questions on eligibility, it is important that the scheme be accessible on a national basis without regional variations. While there are many negatives arising from the review process as it relates to discretionary medical cards, it has achieved one thing in that it has clearly surfaced that there were wide geographical inequalities in terms of who could and could not receive medical cards on a discretionary basis. That local variation meant that people who probably did not conform with the rules as they stood at the time were receiving medical cards in one area, whereas others in another area had to pass the strict test. I do not think that going back to that system is the right thing to do. There is a process in place to determine what medical conditions it might be appropriate to include in terms of eligibility in circumstances where it would not arise. As this is a process that will ultimately result in consideration by the Government, I would not want to prejudge it. We have established the expert group which will look at the medical conditions which could be included in addition to or in substitution for the undue hardship test. Our report is due for completion in September and will then be considered by the Government which will also be provided with information on the resource implications of each of these options. I do not think a return to the way medical cards were issued would solve the current problem.

Let me caution Mr. O'Brien in this regard. A list of conditions is fine to a degree, but some medical conditions, even if they appear similar, can vary so much. For example, we all fear cancer, but the problems for individual patients vary greatly according to the type of cancer involved.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

That is very much understood.

I welcome the delegation. To continue on the topical matter of discretionary medical cards, the review has been halted. However, will those who lost them have them returned?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

The answer to that question is "No." The Deputy will be aware that the matter is being considered by the Government.

How many have lost discretionary medical cards in the past six months?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Since 1 January 2014 we know that approximately 1,190 people have lost them.

How many are under appeal?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I understand they have completed the appeal process.

But the medical cards have still been removed.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Any person who is still involved in the appeals process or has had a review process commenced will retain his or her medical card until the process is completed. Any person for whom a definitive decision was made - there was a finding that he or she was ineligible in accordance with the rules as they applied at that time - has not had his or her medical card returned, but that issue is under active consideration and being discussed by the Government.

How many more reviews were due to take place at the time the cessation of reviews was announced?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

How many were due to take place?

Yes. Where were we in the process of reviewing all discretionary medical cards?

Mr. John Hennessy

The overall review programme for 2014 involved just short of 900,000 medical cards. Discretionary medical cards account for a much smaller subset of that number, but they will be included in the overall review programme.

How many discretionary medical card reviews were taking place? What is the actual figure?

Mr. John Hennessy

It is difficult to quantify because medical cards come up for review on the review date as printed on the medical card, just like a credit card. Approximately half of the total on the overall GMS register were scheduled for review in the course of 2014.

The review date is shown on the card.

Mr. John Hennessy

There is only one exception. In response to the earlier point made by the Comptroller and Auditor General on occasional random reviews-----

I am sure every public representative knows of people who were given a medical card in February which was up for review in March.

Mr. John Hennessy

That would occur only where they happened to be selected for random review.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

By its nature, a random review must be random. The only persons we seek to exclude are those subject to a targeted review. The only people subject to a targeted review are the over-70s where there has been a specific change in the eligibility criteria. There are approximately 350,000 persons in the over-70 age group, but because of the spousal issue the overall cohort is 376,000. Rather than seek to review all of these or even half of them, the information link with both Revenue and the Department of Social Protection was used to identify those who should be reviewed. Therefore, there are 65,000 in that category to be reviewed.

In that case, the HSE had a legitimate reason to ask for a review.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

We have a legitimate reason on every occasion.

I know that; I mean in the sense that the HSE believed the guidelines and information on income from the Department of Social Protection and Revenue showed that it was right to send a letter to the people concerned.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

We had an obligation to send the letters. The over-70s medical card is distinct from all other medical cards in that it is determined on the basis of gross income only. The only information we have is on gross income, whereas all other medical cards are issued based on the balance of income versus expenditure. Consequently, in the case of the over-70s we can see, based on simple information fields, whether a person has a gross weekly income in excess of €900 a week for a married couple or €500 a week for a single person. This can be used to trigger a review process. In all other cases the information required to determine eligibility in terms of undue hardship is far more complex and can only be obtained from the individual. Consequently, the review process essentially relates to a very large proportion of the population. As has been outlined in the reports, we are required to ensure a person remains eligible at all times, not just on a particular date or for a particular period of time.

I understand that, but a person over 70 years receiving a letter looking for all of this information can find it extremely threatening.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

A person over 70 years is only asked for one piece of information related to his or her income.

They are only asked once.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Yes.

The other significant concern expressed to public representatives relates to information being lost in the PCRS.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

The service deals with approximately 7.8 million pieces of correspondence per annum and my understanding is that the number of missed files is relatively small. Where such losses occur, they have a very significant impact on the individuals concerned, which is regretted. We have commissioned a review both in the context of the learning we can gain from the process we have been through in the past 18 months and also in preparation for any new arrangement that might be introduced as a result of a policy framework. The object is to establish how we can improve all of the processes in order to minimise the impact on clients engaging with the applications process. Part of the complexity in the system derives directly from the legislation. We are considering how measures we might take to simplify the process for individuals could be supported by changes that might be contemplated in legislation so as to make the overall eligibility determination process more simplified.

Does this involve a root and branch review of the PCRS, from the beginning of the process, when the application for a medical card is submitted, through to the point at which a decision is made on the application?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

In order to learn from recent experience, it is necessary to look at all the steps in the process. The review we are undertaking is essentially a process analysis. It also requires a consideration of the communications aspects and any other aspect which might improve the process. A particular consideration is whether potential improvements to processes by our staff would need to be facilitated by changes in legislation. If such changes are identified, we will be seeking to have them taken into consideration as part of any other process to change the 1970 Act.

There has been great reference in the media to an alleged case in which a parent was asked to prove their child still had Down's syndrome in order to retain a medical card that had been granted on a discretionary basis. Did that actually happen?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I preface my remarks by pointing out that we are talking about a real individual. I know from contact with the representative body to which the individual belongs that the constant public discussion of the issue is a source of distress for the person, to which I do not wish to add. I will say, however, that we do ask questions in order to establish whether an individual's circumstances have changed. A person certainly can have a lifelong medical condition - that is not in doubt - have other conditions, experience an exacerbation of an illness or find himself or herself in changed financial circumstances. The questions we ask are intended to elicit the totality of the picture that will enable the person to qualify. I understand, however, that this could be heard as, "Does your child still have a particular underlying condition?" where one believes the sole reason the child was granted a medical card was the presence of that condition.

Was the question that was alleged actually put to the person concerned?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

No, the question was asked in the way I phrased it. That is not to say, however, that we in any sense believe the individual has sought to misrepresent what they believe they heard. We absolutely accept the person's bona fides and are not seeking to add to their distress in any way.

Has the investigative process been changed?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

There are no reviews on the way of discretionary medical cards. Therefore, there is no process.

Is Mr. O'Brien saying there will not be such a misunderstanding in the future?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I cannot guarantee what people might perceive from the revised questions that will be asked in the future. Certainly, we are aware that in the case of medical cards issued on a discretionary basis, where there may have been an incorrect understanding that the mere existence of a medical condition was what earned or granted the medical card in the first place, a question like that could be perceived as asking whether someone still has the underlying medical condition. To the extent that we can change the language to ensure there is no such misunderstanding, we will do so.

The review of discretionary medical cards has now stopped. What is the position in reviewing what we might call "normal" medical cards?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

The reviews are ongoing.

However, in recent days a person contacted me to say he had been told that the review of his medical card was stalled until such time as the decision was taken on discretionary medical cards.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I cannot comment on an individual case. I can say the only reviews that have been paused, suspended or stalled - whatever word one uses to describe it - are those of medical cards issued on a discretionary basis. It could be that the individual to whom the Deputy referred actually has a discretionary medical card but does not realise it.

No, that is not the case.

On the issue of top-up payments, an article in a national newspaper this morning referred to the business case aspect. The HSE has met all of the agencies concerned to discuss this issue. Surely it should have emerged at these meetings that they intended to put forward the business case argument to defend the top-up payments?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

The committee has the report of the internal review panel. In the course of that review various cases were brought forward for the approval of various allowances or payments. Nobody made an argument for what is known as red circling or on the basis of a legal obligation to pay. Following the rejection of the individual business cases - in other words, the notion that this should be a permanently approved payment for the post in question - some of the agencies reverted to the position, in the light of that decision, that there was a legal problem.

About how many cases are we talking?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

In respect of eight persons - as opposed to eight organisations - there is legal advice and consideration of legal advice by the employing authority. In regard to 50 persons, there is a requirement for further information from the individuals concerned. In some of these cases the conclusion will be, having looked at the information, that there is no legal obligation. In other cases, evidence will be proffered. Essentially, we are saying it is very easy for an agency to claim it has an irrevocable legal obligation to an individual, but it is up to that agency to prove it to us.

What happens if an agency cannot prove it?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

If an agency cannot prove a legal obligation, it will be required to discontinue the payment.

And if it can prove it?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

That will have to be taken into consideration in the discussions we have with the relevant Departments.

What will happen then?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

It depends on the outcome of the discussion. We are dealing with a situation where persons or their employers are asserting that there are inalienable contractual entitlements. They either do or they do not.

To put it bluntly - if there are such entitlements, they will get away with it.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

If a person has an enforceable contractual entitlement, it will be necessary to consider whether there is any basis on which it can be overcome. If there is no such basis, logically, the individual will retain the benefit of the contractual entitlement. We do not yet have any basis on which to reach a conclusion on it because we have not seen the evidence.

Have the eight individuals to whom Mr. O'Brien referred come back and stated a firm belief there are contractual reasons their top-up payments cannot be discontinued?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Yes, or their employers have come back on their behalf.

It seems likely, from what Mr. O'Brien has said, that we cannot lay a finger on them.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

We are asking them to prove the legal obligation and nobody has yet provided that proof. Therefore, I would not reach the same conclusion as the Deputy at this stage. If someone has a legally enforceable contractual entitlement, it is not a matter for the HSE or anybody else to seek to reach a legal ruling on it. There is an appropriate place for it to be played out and it is not here.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Legal challenges are normally brought before the courts.

My concern is that despite the publicity surrounding this issue in the past 12 to 18 months, we seem to be moving very slowly to tackle it. Many of these agencies are standing over what they stated at the beginning.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

It is a careful process because it needs to be so. We should not forget, however, that there has been very significant change in a number of institutions as a result of this process and very substantial progress towards-----

However, in many cases, the agencies in question had to be dragged kicking and screaming.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

We are now dealing with the outliers. We will have to see what the evidence shows. That evidence will be carefully considered in combination with the Departments that have responsibility for approving or not approving any application made on foot of alleged evidence.

Does Mr. O'Brien have the report from the Central Remedial Clinic?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Yes.

When did he receive it?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I received it approximately 14 days ago.

Has Mr. O'Brien read it?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Yes.

Does he want to discuss it today?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

No.

When will we see it?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I anticipate providing it for the committee early next week. There has already been some discussion with the clerk about the process around it.

Has the Minister been made aware of its contents or is that part of the process?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

The Minister has not had sight of it. I assume he is aware that I have it

Is there any reason we have not yet received it?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

The report is to me and requires my careful consideration. During the past 14 days I have not had time to read very large reports because I have been busy with other matters.

Mr. O'Brien has mentioned that a new financial system is being putting in place. He indicated in his opening statement that the HSE did not have any hand, act or part in deciding the allocation it received at the beginning of the year. I assume this is a source of some frustration for him.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I would not say we do not have any hand, act or part in it. We certainly engage in significant discussions about it.

I was making the point that any public body, including the HSE, may carry out an exercise to decide what it needs to provide all services and deal with other pressures. There is an expectation that the State is in a position to provide that exact sum of money and that everything will be happy thereafter. That is not how it works.

The question on the financial system relates to our ability to produce timely, accurate financial data that will aid the process of budget management and help avoid issues of unauthorised payments through payroll. These are important but not entirely linked issues.

When is that supposed to begin?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

The business case has been transmitted, with the endorsement of the Department of Health, to our colleagues in the relevant section in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. There is a set process for evaluating a business case. We hope to go to market by the end of the third quarter or start of the fourth quarter this year but we cannot yet set this as a timetable as it is subject to the approval process. It is a process of testing to ensure the assumptions underpinning our business case are sound.

What would be the cost of the new system?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Over a ten year period the business case is for-----

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

Over a ten year period it is to cost €80 million.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

Over a ten year period it is to cost €80 million but I must say I am precluded from going into further detail as there are commercial considerations to deal with. This is only an indicative number.

Obviously the intention is to save many times that amount through the new financial system.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

We certainly believe it will add significantly to our ability to control expenditure in the health care system.

The cost is expected to be €80 million over ten years.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

At this stage we are talking about an unapproved business case. The market has not been tested and these are indicative costs that are in a range appropriate for the purpose of where the case is now.

How is the issue of medical cards for children under six years of age proceeding?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

Committee Stage is due next week. An enactment is required from the Oireachtas and a commencement date will then be determined by the Minister. It is the firm intention of both the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy White, and the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, to proceed this year in the timeframe they specified.

Will it be this year or this summer?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

It is obviously contingent on the Oireachtas but it is intended that it be this year. There must be dialogue with the Irish Medical Organisation, IMO.

What of the €37 million set aside? Will this be affected by the €23 million that probably will not be saved in medical cards?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

That allocation of €37 million is explicitly for children under six years of age.

And what of the €23 million relating to medical cards?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

It is currently on track.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Can I address the point made by the Accounting Officer on random reviews? It was stated that someone had been reviewed recently. It is only necessary to go back to a person who has been reviewed or had an application processed in the preceding three months if a defect is discovered in the paperwork. If it becomes apparent that not all documentation has been provided then additional information is required. For example, if information that is to be provided in a month's time is the same as that which has already been provided and found acceptable, the existing information can be taken as correct. That documentation will be placed with other correct documentation rather than in a pile for incorrect payments. There are nuances to this. In a random sample from a population of a couple of million, there could not be more than four or five such cases so I do not think random reviews present an insurmountable problem.

What does Dr. McLoughlin think of Mr. O'Brien's budget?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

Does the Chairman refer to the annual budget?

Is it not the case that the Department of Health negotiates the figures?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

The determination of expenditure is made by the Oireachtas and the Government. Mr. O'Brien and I engage in a dialogue with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Ministers at Estimates time. Ultimately the Government decides how much will be allocated for Votes 38 and 39.

I am asking what Dr. McLoughlin thinks. Is Mr. O'Brien allocated enough?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I am constrained because I cannot comment on Government decisions and policies.

I am not asking about policy. How much short is Mr. O'Brien's budget? I ask this with regard to the negotiations that have been engaged in with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. How much was requested and how much was received?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I am not in a position to give that information.

That means it will not be given.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I cannot do so.

I believe Dr. McLoughlin can do so because he negotiated the figure.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I did not negotiate the figure. The Estimates process involves the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and the Minister for Health. The Chairman's questions should be addressed to those Ministers.

No, I will not do so. I am here today as Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts. Dr. McLoughlin must have prepared a request relating to the funding because a Minister will only act on an outline of what he is told is required by the HSE to run its affairs. I will ask a different question. Are the figures for how much was requested and how much was received secrets? How much did Dr. McLoughlin request?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I am not in a position to answer that.

It is not that the question cannot be answered. Dr. McLoughlin simply will not answer it.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I am not in a position to answer. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and the Minister for Health engage in detailed discussions on Estimates and are supported in this by their officials. The ultimate decision rests with the political system and the Government.

I understand that because I have been a Member of these Houses since 1997 and have a reasonable idea how the system works, though every Thursday at this committee is an education for me as to how the system does not work. Did Dr. McLoughlin ask the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for a specific budget in order that the Minister could be informed? How much was requested?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

As I said, I am not in a position to answer that question.

Dr. McLoughlin can answer but will not.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I am not in a position to answer.

I am not surprised that Dr. McLoughlin will not answer. What does Mr. O'Brien think of this budget issue? Did Mr. O'Brien prepare figures for Dr. McLoughlin in order that he could fight the case on behalf of Mr. O'Brien and ensure sufficient funds were received? Obviously Mr. O'Brien prepared a budget.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

The Freedom of Information Act has already brought into the public domain submissions and correspondence between the HSE and the Department of Health. This material reflects our aspirations on overall funding having regard to our underlying deficit and challenges in the year ahead. I do not have the numbers in my head but will provide the relevant correspondence as it is already in the public domain.

We set out the risks around this year's funding in the service plan. These have been described well, but to be even-handed, we must recognise that the Government has a ceiling on public expenditure. It does not have the discretion it might wish for when allocating budgets to any Department or service, including the HSE.

My question does not relate to the decisions of the Government, which I understand. I want to know how the process works and Mr. O'Brien has clarified this matter. It is the case that the HSE prepares a budget plan taking known and unknown factors into account and arrives at a figure as a best estimate of its needs for the year.

Mr. O'Brien, in turn, then presents that to Mr. McLoughlin, who argues the case with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. The political end of it is the question of how much money we have and whether we can meet this figure, and then the final figure is reached. That generally is how it works, is it not?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

That, generally, is the process, yes.

See, Mr. McLoughlin, that was easy. I would say co-operation and courtesy are not bad things.

Can Mr. O'Brien tell me the cost of running the whole medical card examination - that section that was set up to implement the policy?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I can tell the Chairman that the administrative cost of running the entire PCRS operation is 1.9% of the approximately €2.4 billion budget. Sorry; the figure is 1.19%, which comes in at about €30 million for all of the administrative processes of all of the schemes, which includes all of the 80,000 transactions and 7,500 suppliers. It is not possible for me to isolate the figures and say that this is the specific cost of carrying out the review part as opposed the new issues part or the processing of payments. It is an inherent part of the total operation. The total cost is €30 million and it comes to 1.19% of a €2.4 billion expenditure.

You are chasing a figure of 4% in terms of the medical reviews and all of that.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

In terms of the general medical card, there is evidence to believe, based on all of the reviews that have taken place so far, that it is around 3% to 4% in terms of eligibility, whether that is random or across the general population.

What I was trying to establish is how much it costs to chase that 4%. If one were examining an aged debt, one would have to decide how much it would cost to chase that amount of money and it may be that perhaps it is not worth it. Did that type of analysis take place within the HSE? There is no point in asking Mr. McLoughlin that question because he will not tell me.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I will ask Mr. Hennessy to respond to the Chairman's question.

Mr. John Hennessy

The director general has pointed out that the running costs of around €30 million per annum work out at about 1.19% of the overall budget. That covers the medical card scheme, accounting for €1.8 billion of that overall budget, and approximately €600 million on other schemes such as the dental service, the ophthalmic service, the long term illness service and the drugs payment scheme, among a number of others. There are 12 schemes altogether being administered by the PCRS in its entirety, but the medical card scheme would be a significant part of that overall position.

In terms of the output of the review process, the overall picture would represent an impact of approximately 20% of the total number that are reviewed in any period of time. In a particular year, for instance, the number that would actually be refused on the basis of a means assessment is quite small, at somewhere between 4% and 6%, but the far bigger impact would be from the cards that are cancelled for other reasons, usually because people choose not to renew or reapply at that time, or they may have left the area. The impact in terms of the return on the investment of reviewing is quite significant. If we were not to do any reviews, we would run the risk of significant expenditure on cards that are not necessary or required.

You have examined it and taken the measurement, which is fine.

Mr. John Hennessy

Correct.

How much of that work is outsourced?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

There are there are two elements that are outsourced.

What is the cost involved?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I will pull up the relevant section as I have the information with me. There are two elements. One is the front-end data input. As has been discussed in the public domain, one part of front-end data entry, which does not relate to any decision-making process, is outsourced to a company in Dublin at a cost of €2.66 million for an 18-month period plus VAT, and then there is the flexible call centre. Do we have the call centre data?

Mr. John Hennessy

Yes. It is approximately €2 million per annum for the helpline call centre, which is manned by more than 100 call-takers, at the last count, who deal with 4,000 calls per day.

This is outsourced in Dublin, is it?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

It is in Waterford. One of the advantages is that although the recent handling volume has gone from approximately 20,000 calls per week to 40,000 calls per week, no doubt because of the significant public interest and controversy, it has been possible to maintain a high-quality service as a result of its being outsourced that would not have been possible, on a flexible basis, if it had not been outsourced.

I have one further question before I call Deputy O'Donnell. Deputy Connaughton made the point, with which I am in agreement, that a considerable amount of paperwork is lost in this process. Is that paperwork going to the data input section? Where is likely to be misplaced or lost in the system? Does it happen at some other stage?

Mr. John Hennessy

We are getting into interpretations of "lost". People send in information. The director general mentioned the 8 million pieces of correspondence that come in annually, so it is a significant operation. Understandably, people send in documentation today and ring up tomorrow to see if has arrived and, upon being told it has not, interpret that as meaning that the correspondence has been lost. It is not actually lost very often; usually, it is in the process of being opened or registered, the data is being entered, or the case is on the way to the deciding officer. Sometimes that can taken several days, or even a week or more.

Is that the data input section?

Mr. John Hennessy

It deals with the-----

Is that where the information goes, and then it is sent to us from there?

Mr. John Hennessy

Data entry deals with the very basic demographic data - correspondence received, putting in names, addresses and dates of birth, etc.-----

So it starts there.

Mr. John Hennessy

-----and then the correspondence moves along the production line to the decision-making process.

I call Deputy O'Donnell.

I welcome Mr. O'Brien, Mr. McLoughlin and their colleagues. I have three items I wish to raise. The first issue, about which I have put the HSE on alert, is the HIQA report on the accident and emergency department at University Hospital Limerick. The second issue is that of salary top-ups, and the third item is medical cards. In saying this I am not being personal, but there has been a good deal of talk about the process and so forth. I find it slightly ironic that we can read in an article in one of today's newspapers that 148 people are fighting over top-ups while people have been contacting us for the past six months about their medical cards, many of whom are elderly people who are petrified that they will lose their cards. I ask about the morality of this. I, as a public representative, do not think I have ever been as angry. Other people have come to us telling us that their medical cards have been pulled. They have gone to their local pharmacist or GP completely unaware that this has happened, and have been told in front of a crowded pharmacy, where they have probably shopped for the past 20 or 30 years, that their medical card has been pulled. That comes down to administration. I will return to this point, but I want to put it in context. The Chairman has also referred to this. We are talking about it in very abstract terms, but this is about real people's lives - about people losing their medical cards - and there must be questions about the process involved.

I want to move on to the top-ups. Much of this area has been covered. With regard to the range of the top-ups involved, what is the top top-up? Am I correct in saying there are 148 people involved?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

The number is 143.

What is the range of top-ups involved? What has this process taken so long? We dealt with the section 38 agency top-ups months ago. If my memory serves me correctly, the report was commenced in March 2013 and delivered by the executive's internal auditor in July 2013. It is now a year later. Why has this process taken so long? We represent the ordinary people following these proceedings. I do not view this as an academic exercise. I want answers. For me, this is very simple. Why has it taken so long and what is the range of top-ups involved? I find it interesting that in an article by Martin Wall, who is present in the gallery, in today's edition of The Irish Times, Barry O'Brien of the HSE indicated that if the organisations made cases and submitted the required documents he would engage with the Department of Health and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform on their behalf.

What about the medical cards of ordinary people? We speak on their behalf. I wish to deal with the issue quickly. Why is it taking so long and what is the range of top-ups involved?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

The range of the top-ups is as set out in the full report the committee has. I do not have it in front of me right now.

Are we just talking about section 38 organisations?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Yes.

Then we are talking about €3.2 billion and we are talking about another €900,000.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

It is €3.2 million, not billion.

Yes, it is €3.2 million and an additional €900,000. Have any of the cases been resolved?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Yes, a very good number of them have and a full report detailing the outcome on each will be made.

How many of the 143 cases are unresolved at this stage?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

From the current information available to me – this is a live situation – about 58 are still at issue.

That is 58 of the 143, which is approximately 40%. Why is it taking so long?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

In terms of the interval between July and when we published the report by way of provision to the committee, it was necessary for it to be discussed by the HSE board as it then was, which it was, and the board agreed to refer it to the Department of Health to request that there would be absolute clarity in terms of policy. As the report itself indicated, there were areas of ambiguity. There were a number of instances where people claimed to be in compliance with policy but information was gleaned from the record of the Dáil where the Minister of the day-----

If I could just put this in context, the HSE is sending out letters on medical card reviews to those aged over 70. The most recent tranche of letters required a response by 16 June. Today is 12 June which means that is in four days time. If the information is not received by the HSE by 16 June, the medical card will be cancelled by the end of the month. Side by side with that we have 58 people earning more than €80,000. They are well paid. They have not responded and 1 July looms. The situation has been ongoing for the past year. I lived in the world of deadlines. There appears to be one law for the ordinary Joe and another for a different cohort of society. I know the deliberations involved, but could Mr. O’Brien explain why it has taken so long? What are the stand-offs and key points?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I was attempting to explain. On the record of Dáil Éireann in 1996 the Minister of the day indicated that it was in order for section 38 bodies to pay additional sums from funds they obtained from sources other than the State. In a number of instances, that statement and other issues were referenced and it was necessary for us in the first instance to be able to proceed to gain a clear statement of current public pay policy. That was requested of the Department of Health. Staff in the Department engaged with colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, and on receipt of the statement of policy, the process of seeking to address those instances which were now clearly outside of the current policy began to be addressed.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

That was in October, last year. As a result of that, the report was furnished to those entities – I emphasise the entities rather than the individuals – together with the statement of policy with a requirement for them to respond. As Deputy O’Donnell will recall, when we came before the committee with the report, which I think was in November, we were at a stand-off with some organisations and we had full co-operation with others. The Deputy will be only too well aware, because of the role the committee itself has played, of the difficulties we had getting some organisations to engage. I acknowledge the active involvement and support of the committee in helping us to get the attention of some of the bodies concerned. In many of those bodies we have now seen definitive progress on some of the top-ups being ended and others that are in the process of being ended. In some instances – I was at pains to explain that when we provided the committee with the report – it is not the individuals who are at fault, it is the persons who purported to provide unapproved payments. Many of the individuals may have taken jobs having left jobs paid at close to or the same as the new topped up salary without any knowledge that they were being paid an unapproved part of their pay. There is a due process issue at stake.

Our human resources and internal audit sections have pursued this assiduously. People are working on the matter virtually continuously. However, we do not have the right to set aside a circumstance where an individual may have a legally binding contract. We are whittling down to the final few cases where that may be the case. The deadline is 1 July. Martin Wall speculated about the matter on radio this morning. There may be a necessity to engage in discussions about the legal framework and whether there are legal options available. We have not yet reached that point but it is a matter of a couple of weeks away. Barry O’Brien indicated in correspondence to each of the individuals that if they are claiming they have a legal right, or a legal obligation more particularly, to continue paying this, first of all they must prove it to the HSE. If they show sufficient cause the HSE will then engage in relation to that with the relevant Departments to seek to come to a view as to how we resolve the matter and move forward. The overall exercise has produced significant change, not just on this but in the totality of our relationship with the section 38 sector. I understand why Deputy O'Donnell would see a linkage and a connection between this matter and the other matter-----

It is not a case of seeing a link but I am making a comparison between how different groups are treated. We deal with people every day of the week. We are there to represent them. At the moment medical card reviews are causing major hardship and anxiety among a large cohort of the population.

Is Mr. O’Brien saying that if the organisations can prove the validity of the top-ups, the HSE will knock on the door of Dr. McLoughlin in the Department to say a top-up is required and to pay the top-ups?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

No, we will not. Let me make it really simple. If someone has a legally enforceable contractual entitlement-----

I would prefer it Mr. O’Brien were to make it clear rather than simple.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Let me make it clear. If someone can prove an enforceable, legal contractual entitlement to A, B or C, we will need to engage with the Departments that are responsible for determining public pay policy on how the two things interact with each other.

What view does the Department take on the issue?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

We think the HSE has acted prudently and correctly and we are awaiting its report on these matters. When the reports are given to my Department, we will work expeditiously with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to deal with whatever issues arise.

What view does Dr. McLoughlin take? If a case is made, will the Department agree to the top-ups being paid?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

Deputy O'Donnell will appreciate that I cannot deal with the hypothesis. I assure him that we will look very carefully and diligently at the reports we receive and we will engage with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform within the parameters of public pay policy.

Could I move on to the medical card issue? Much ground has been covered. I wish to speak from practical experience. I will deal with discretionary medical cards for those aged under and over 70 years. All reviews have ceased for those with medical cards aged under 70. Those in the appeals process will keep their cards but those who have lost their cards await the outcome of a Cabinet decision on the matter. Is that correct?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Mostly, what I would say is that we have paused reviews of discretionary cards irrespective of age. It is not a question of age.

Mr. O'Brien will appreciate that the majority of people aged over 70 did not get their cards on a discretionary basis, they got them on a means basis. I will deal with the anomaly. Am I correct on the general point relating to those aged under 70, that the HSE is awaiting a Government decision on the restoration of medical cards?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I would be concerned that another person not as knowledgeable as the Deputy might misinterpret what we are saying. It is not about whether they are under 70 because the vast majority of people with a medical card who are under 70 do not have a discretionary medical card, and they too will be reviewed. It is only discretionary cards.

Mr. O'Brien is awaiting a Government decision on the restoration of the discretionary medical cards in terms of policy.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

We are taking no steps at this stage to restore discretionary medical cards but we are aware it is a matter that is being discussed by Government.

We find the biggest issue with the over 70s is that they are a much older age group and the medical card is very important to them, and that is not to negate its importance to others. As a cohort they are getting letters about reviews and in terms of this month, if they do not have the information in by 16 June, their card will be withdrawn by the end of June. There is a human story to this issue. Furthermore, and I want clarification on this point, they were not entitled to apply for a discretionary card until their over 70s card was withdrawn. Am I correct in saying, based on my understanding as of yesterday, that a person over 70 who does not pass the means test for an over 70s card can now apply for a discretionary medical card and hold their over 70s medical card for the duration of their discretionary medical card application process?

Mr. John Hennessy

I will take that question. There is quite a distinction between the over 70s scheme for medical card cover and the normal medical card scheme under section 45 of the Health Act. There is a distinctly different qualification system. If someone is over 70 and they are under a particular gross income, they get a card with no other questions asked.

The discretionary medical card for those over 70 is based on gross income.

Mr. John Hennessy

Right.

If the medical card of a person under 70 comes up for review and the Health Service Executive decides that the person is no longer entitled to it based on their means, if they appeal that on discretionary grounds they hold their card for the duration of the appeal process.

Mr. John Hennessy

If they have already had one.

Correct, if they have one currently. I am someone who has a medical card. The HSE writes to me informing me it is reviewing my medical card. If I find that I can no longer hold it on means grounds, I can then apply on discretionary grounds and hold my medical card for the duration of the appeal period on discretionary grounds.

Mr. John Hennessy

The Deputy is painting a slightly different scenario.

Mr. John Hennessy

The protection available in the suspension that is under way is for people who recently held cards on discretion.

No. I am saying that if the HSE writes to someone under 70 stating it is reviewing their medical card, they return the information and the decision is that they are no longer able to hold the card on, say, means grounds, they can then appeal on discretionary medical basis but they will hold their medical card for the duration of that process.

Mr. John Hennessy

If the card they held originally was on the basis of discretion applied.

Whereas someone over 70 cannot apply for a discretionary medical card.

Mr. John Hennessy

They can of course.

They can only apply for it once their over 70s medical card has been withdrawn.

Mr. John Hennessy

No. That is not correct.

Mr. John Hennessy

There is not an age distinction in relation to the general scheme.

If someone has an over 70s medical card on means grounds-----

Mr. John Hennessy

Because there is a more generous means test for that.

I know that but if they fail the means grounds they can only apply for a discretionary card once their over 70s card has been withdrawn.

Mr. John Hennessy

Not so.

Is Mr. Hennessy telling me that they can apply for the discretionary card and they would hold their over 70s card for the duration of that appeal?

Mr. John Hennessy

I am telling the Deputy that there are quite likely to be people over 70 who currently have cards on discretion.

I am talking about that category.

Time, Deputy.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

We may be slightly misunderstanding each other and to try to resolve that I submitted there is no age limit on one's ability to apply.

It is a different point. Can I move on to Limerick Regional Hospital because it is an issue I put the witnesses on notice-----

Mr. John Hennessy

Can I make one reply to the earlier points about people being notified in the pharmacy that their medical card has been cut off? There is an important point to be made in terms of clarification there. What we have always tried to do is to strike a balance between control and customer service essentially, and sometimes that is not easy to achieve, but for people who are over 70, for instance, there is a notice issued of a review four months out from the review date. That is the first point of contact.

The letter does not state when the card will be withdrawn. Elderly people are getting letters saying they must reply within two or three months. In this case they must have the information back by 16 June. Many elderly people return it early and they get no letter of any description from the HSE stating that their card will be withdrawn.

Mr. John Hennessy

That is not actually correct. I will confirm to the Deputy offline the factual position.

I am dealing with them every day of the week. I know that.

Mr. John Hennessy

I dealt with one myself recently as well and I know personally that there is a clear return date to reply-----

I have to ask the Deputy to conclude.

On Limerick Regional Hospital, has Mr. O'Brien read the Health Information and Quality Authority report?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I have.

He is well aware, therefore, that the accident and emergency department in Limerick Regional Hospital is not fit for purpose and that the overcrowding is unacceptable. What is the delay in the new accident and emergency department being built? I understand from the main contractor, Sisk, that the shell of the accident and emergency department is built and ready for a fit-out. Sisk is about to move off site. It is already a year under construction. I understand that the tenders are only now in place to do the fit-out at the new accident and emergency department in Limerick Regional Hospital and that the contractors will not be in place until November. Why are the contractors not ready to roll on the fit-out today? Why was there not a parallel process? It appears to me that there is a six month delay in the contractors being appointed for the fit-out. Is there a problem with funding? My understanding is that there is no problem with funding; €20 million has been allocated already. We have a problem of major overcrowding in the accident and emergency department in Limerick Regional Hospital for the patients and the staff alike. I am sure Mr. O'Brien is well aware of that.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Indeed. The rationale for the approval to proceed with the fit-out was based on the urgent need to improve the quality of the infrastructure in the emergency department at Limerick accident and emergency department, but the sequencing by which that funding was approved led to the triggering of a procurement process. We have to go through that procurement process but I am advised by those that the procurement process is being done as expeditiously as it can be.

Why was it not done six months ago? There is an empty shell of a building that will be idle until November. Work should start on that now. Why is that not happening? Why was the procurement process not done earlier?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I will come back to the Deputy with a formal response but my understanding is that the interval period has been around the design and specification of the fit-out in order that it could then be procured. The original building is capable of being used for a number of purposes but it is now to be used as an emergency department, and that required proper spatial planning and specification in order that it could then be procured.

In terms of a project of that size and as a Deputy in Limerick, where this issue is of paramount importance, there will be an empty shell of a building until November. I believe that with proper planning the work could start now. I have looked at the building. I am not a builder but I can see clearly that the structure is ready for fit-out. Will Mr. O'Brien examine this issue to see how it can be expedited with a view to getting the new accident and emergency department up and running? Will Mr. O'Brien give me the date, based on his projections, on which the new accident and emergency department will be opened?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

The Deputy might bear with me for a second. I do not want to give him the wrong information. The target date is a completion in early 2016.

Early 2016. Are we talking-----

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Typically, early means quarter 1.

Will Mr. O'Brien look at it to see what can be done to expedite the project because that is 18 months from now? In terms of the overcrowding, we will go through two winters before that accident and emergency department is opened. Everything should be done to see how that project can be expedited.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Naturally, I am happy to do that.

My final question pertains to the chief executive officer of the hospital network, who I understand is leaving. What contract was in place, for how long was it and when was Mr. O'Brien aware the chief executive officer was leaving? I ask because obviously it is a period of great change.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I cannot discuss this with the Deputy because that relates to an individual. While I am aware of the general context in which the Deputy asks the question-----

It is in the public domain.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

What may or may not be in the public domain does not entitle me to discuss an individual's circumstances.

In that case, I will conclude by asking whether the mid-west, that is, University Hospital Limerick and the networks, retains the priority for the HSE at a corporate level that it always has had in respect of funding. Is there an issue with funding for the accident and emergency unit that is to be built? Is this the reason for the delay in the building and fit-out of the accident and emergency unit? Is there a delay in funding?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Not to my knowledge. The capital funding for that project is identified and allocated in the capital plan. The University of Limerick Hospitals group, like the six other groups, is a priority both in and of itself for the benefits it provides to the population it serves and as an integral part of the overall reform of the health system. The person to whom the Deputy has referred has done an excellent job. However, I simply am not comfortable discussing what she may or may not be doing career-wise without her being here or without her knowledge.

I am making a point on the future of the hospital network and whether it retains the focus and the priority of the HSE at corporate level-----

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Yes, it does.

-----because the fit-out of the accident and emergency unit is of paramount importance. There is gross overcrowding at present and this morning, there were 18 people on trolleys at Limerick Regional accident and emergency unit. It is a matter of the utmost priority for me as a Deputy in the constituency, as well as for both patients and staff alike. My concern is this overcrowding issue will not go away over the next 18 months and this is the reason the new accident and emergency unit is needed so desperately. My question is, really, what can be done to expedite this.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I have undertaken to examine whether there are any options to do that.

I ask Mr. O'Brien to furnish a report to Deputy O'Donnell. I will continue with the Limerick group and perhaps will ask a more general question of Dr. McLoughlin. Were Mr. O'Brien to decide, for example, that an assistant is needed in the aforementioned hospital group, who would clear that decision? Is it Dr. McLoughlin or is it Mr. O'Brien? Who has the authority in that regard?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

In the first instance, Mr. O'Brien has the ceiling that is agreed with the Department of Health and he has full discretion to operate within that. Normally speaking, however, if it was a replacement appointment, he would seek the approval of the Department and, depending on the circumstances, we would be obliged to seek the approval of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Let us say there was an assistant chief executive officer to be appointed to that group of hospitals to which Deputy O'Donnell has just referred and it is a new post. Can such a post to be filled without competition and without disclosing the salary?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

The answer to that is "No". The normal situation would be that the human resources people in the HSE would get in touch formally with the Department of Health and the issue of a full public competition would arise because it is a new post. There could only be an internal competition if, for example, the circumstances were that it was for a short term or on an interim basis or whatever, which was clear. However, the Chairman specified it was a new post and so normally that would have to go through the full rigours of approval.

In that case, is it a fact that an assistant chief executive officer, a new post, was appointed without competition and is in receipt of an undisclosed salary?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

The Chairman must direct that question to Mr. O'Brien.

Would the Secretary General not know, as Mr. O'Brien would have been obliged to ask him?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

If the Chairman gives me the details of the post, I will have it examined and will come back to him.

I just did.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

No, I would like to see the-----

Okay, Mr. O'Brien then.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Yes, I can answer the question. First, the post in question, the chief operating officer post, was advertised twice in open competition.

Which post?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

The chief operating officer post.

No, the assistant chief executive officer.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

It is the same post.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Yes. Assistant chief executive officer, chief operating officer. The post was advertised twice through public open competition and we were not able to fill it. As identified in the report of HIQA, the group is an important group at a critical stage of its development and has a number of challenges to overcome. One reason it was a forerunner in the group structure, one of the first two, was because of the enormity of the challenges it needed to overcome. The group chief executive officer, the interim board and I identified the necessity to strengthen the management team there. We have, for example, by open competition put in a financial officer there that it did not have before, as well as other posts. This particular post simply proved impossible to fill for a variety of reasons, as sometimes occurs. Consequently, on an interim basis, pending the rerunning of the competition, we used an agency-based approach. In other words, we brought in someone from an agency to fill the role. It is not by any means the most desirable way but the options available were to leave vacant a critical post in a highly challenged group of hospitals at a time of enormous improvements needing to be made. In consequence, it was agreed to fill the post on that basis, and so it is not an employee, it is a contractor.

Yes, it is a contract. Would that have required the approval of Dr. McLoughlin?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

No.

Therefore, am I correct in stating the HSE has filled the post of chief operating officer down there?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

It has been filled on a temporary basis. This was only because we had run two full processes and failed-----

I understand that. The HSE could not get anyone. Is that person provided by Starline Management Consulting Limited or is that person Starline?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I do not have available to hand the full details. Obviously they are available and I can provide the committee with a report on the matter. However, it is not an issue on which I have the details to hand.

Starline Management Consulting Limited-----

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I am not familiar with the details of that company.

-----has been paid €258,730 over a period from 5 March 2013 to 11 April 2014. My query is whether that payment is for one person? Is this one person that limited company?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I do not know whether that limited company is one person but the services are provided by a named individual.

Yes, but Mr. O'Brien, the payment of €258,730 in a single year to a limited company requires an explanation.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

While I am happy to provide the Chairman with an explanation, I cannot tell him anything about the organisation of the company on the basis of the information available to me here. I can tell him that in certain circumstances where we simply are not able to attract candidates to fill certain roles, we are left with two options. We can leave those roles vacant, with significant operational and clinical risk ensuing for the patients in a hospital group that, as we already know, has been subject to full and ongoing review by HIQA because of issues that have arisen there in the past, or we can take the only available options. I must tell the Chairman this is not an isolated issue. In many instances, the HSE is dependent on clinical consultants, who are paid per annum in excess of that amount, employed through agencies because at present that is the only way we can fill those roles.

But that amount of money is substantially greater than Mr. O'Brien's salary or Dr. McLoughlin's salary. Therefore, would Dr. McLoughlin not have known about that? Does he know anything about it?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I only know what I read in newspaper reports and what is in the public domain. Normally, my Department would not be involved in an operational issue like this. However, I agree we need a full explanation of it and I would be very happy-----

It is not a minor issue is it?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

There are some systemic issues here. We are having difficulty in recruiting people in the health system within the current parameters of public pay policy. My Department regularly makes business cases to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to point out the concerns we have. I do not have the specifics of the €258,730 but it does seem a large amount of money. I am sure Mr. O'Brien and I will be able to provide an appropriate response to the Chairman.

It is paid on invoice and apparently is paid monthly or for a number of months and amounts to that much money. Consequently, I seek a complete breakdown of the figure, who approved it, why it was approved, whether it relates to one person or a number of people and what exactly that public process produced in terms of the advertising for the job in question, if indeed that is what we are talking about. Mr. O'Brien will revert to the committee on that.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I will, but for the avoidance of doubt, the post was advertised twice through the Public Appointments Service in an open and transparent manner, in the way all senior public jobs are, and it was not possible to fill it.

In this instance, while the figure is as the Chairman quoted, it is important to stress that this is not an employee and, therefore, there are not on-costs attracting on top of that. They are not permanent. They are here entirely at our discretion. It is far from ideal but the alternative, in a real operational space that we exist in sometimes, is either we have to accept an inordinate and unacceptable risk to the quality and safety of our services or we have to take such steps as are available to us to plug those gaps. I would much prefer never to rely on any agency staff anywhere in the health system but the reality is that we do depend upon them, at times and in certain circumstances. I am happy to provide the Chairman with a full report.

Just to help Mr. O'Brien with his investigation into the matter, I am told that-----

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Just to be clear, I am not saying I am going to investigate it. I am saying I am going to provide the Chairman with a full report.

Why would Mr. O'Brien not investigate it?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Because there is nothing that requires investigation as such. That implies that there is something mysterious about this. This is an authorised procurement of a service.

I do not see anything mysterious about it but I would like Mr. O'Brien to investigate the view held locally that it was not advertised, that it was not sanctioned by Mr. O'Brien, that it is only one person, that it is €258,000 per annum and that a grade 8 salary in that region is approximately €80,000 per annum. Am I correct in saying that it would be a grade 8 position?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

It would not be a grade 8 position. This would at an assistant national director level, which is in excess-----

At what would that be?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

About €116,000 per annum.

As it stands, the HSE is over double that.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

The reason I am concerned about the word "investigate" is, while we may have a common understanding, I would not want there to be headlines appearing in local newspapers saying, "Director General of HSE Investigates". This is not that space. I do not need to investigate whether the post was advertised because I know that it was. I am happy to provide the Chairman with sufficient information to enable him to be as satisfied about that as I am, but that is why I am just concerned about the way words that we use here are sometimes portrayed differently in the outside world.

So Mr. O'Brien will investigate it.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

No. I will look into the matter so that I can provide the Chairman a full report.

For me, that is investigation.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I want to be clear. I am not investigating this matter.

Mr. O'Brien might investigate this then. How much does a locum cost? Let me put it a different way. Can a locum earn what a consultant would earn per annum in a three or four month period? Is that a possibility?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

A locum clinical consultant?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I do not think so, no.

Over a period of four years, 25 different locums have been in and out of Letterkenny hospital. It is probably the only hospital in Europe where there is one consultant in the haematology unit, where there are periods where the consultant was out sick and there was no consultant cover, and where the cost of all of this could have been dealt with better had they had the appropriate person appointed given that over a five year period the amount of work being done in the hospital tripled. What planning goes into something like that in the context of attempting to save money rather than use an agency to bring in locums, etc.? Is this a particular issue in Letterkenny?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I will ask my colleague, Mr. John Hennessy, to address the specifics. There is a general phenomenaon which relates to what are somewhat unfortunately referred to as geographically peripheral locations, that is to say, further away from the administrative centre of this country, that is, the east coast. It is a phenomenon reflected in other countries, such as Wales, that some of those hospitals can prove very difficult to attract a consultant post to, but Mr. Hennessy can speak to the specifics of Letterkenny.

Mr. John Hennessy

I have had some experience directly with Letterkenny in the past and I can tell the Chairman that Mr. O'Brien is correct that the isolation factor in Donegal and Letterkenny was proving a particularly difficult issue in terms of recruiting, particularly highly-skilled consultant staff for Letterkenny General. That was a problem that was recognised, certainly, two or more years ago. At that point, there was a reliance in Letterkenny on locum cover for approximately 12, or, at one point, even up to 14, consultant posts out of a hospital complement of about 60.

The problem there was that the normal recruitment approach in relation to consultant recruitment through the public appointments system was not addressing that or was not providing solutions, and a bespoke campaign was launched to address that about two years ago. I would not be up to date on it, but I know that, of the 14 or so posts that were targeted in that recruitment campaign, quite a significant number were filled permanently through that campaign. It was targeted not just on a local basis, but on a worldwide basis, to attract people with particular skill sets to Letterkenny and Donegal. An acknowledged problem was recognised over two to three years ago and a very direct approach was taken to address it; I know that there was significant success. As I say, I would not have the most immediate information on how that is progressing but I do know that a number of posts were appointed permanently in Letterkenny.

I ask the HSE to give me a written overview of that.

Returning to the budget, it was stated by the HSE that it is facing serious problems or significant financial challenges this year in relation to the budget. At this stage, by comparison, the HSE is three times over the deficit of last year. What is the forecast for the rest of the year? Has Dr. McLoughlin been informed?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

My Department has formed a view that, at current rates of expenditure, the HSE will be somewhere in the order of €500 million over. However, they are working on the forecast. That is an estimate at this point. Looking at what we call the cash-burn rate, the amount of cash that is being spent, that is the figure that is available.

Some €500 million?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

That is an estimate at this point of what their overrun would be likely to be.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Can I just clarify, if I may?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

A projection based on cash burn assumes that nothing changes. During the initial period, we were having what we regarded as insufficient delivery on Haddington Road and some other measures, and, consequently, we have a number of measures in place designed to ensure that cash-burn rate does not continue. While a straight line projection might get the committee to a place similar to the one that Dr. McLoughlin described, I would not want it to think that is our estimate of where we will land. We are still working on that. There are a number of variables. Significant efforts are being made to reduce the cash burn and, therefore, to reduce the likely outturn position, but we are not yet in a position to name the number.

Is Dr. McLoughlin happy with that?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I have indicated that I have got a projection. It is simply estimated at this point. I am aware of the initiatives that are being taken by the HSE. I am hopeful that they will do much better than that, but the Chairman asked me a straightforward question and I gave him the answer that was available to me and my Department.

Does Dr. McLoughlin have many meetings with Mr. O'Brien on such matters as the forecast, the budgets and how it is going?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

We have a formal meeting between the HSE management advisory committee, MAC, and the directorate every month and we review carefully and diligently the expenditures, and we report regularly to a Cabinet sub-committee on them.

I must put this scenario to Mr. O'Brien, who may correct me if I am wrong in these figures as I go along. It is a business. One part of the business is the acute hospital sector, which has overrun by €63 million. The medical card budget is approximately €9 million over budget. On drugs cost savings, the HSE was to save €124 million in 2012 and it has achieved €15 million. Am I correct so far?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Would the Chairman mind if we went over that drugs figure again?

Was the drugs figure in 2012 the €124 million that was mentioned?

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

Is the Chairman talking about the figures for the first quarter of 2014? I think he has gone back to 2012.

I am taking each issue separately.

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

On the first quarter, the primary care reimbursement service is more or less online. Overall at the end of the first quarter, our primary care division was about €9 million over. The biggest part of that concerns local schemes. However, the primary problem-----

Just €9 million over.

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

Overall. We will have to see what that will be by the year’s end.

I am just giving the picture now. Is €9 million the overall figure?

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

That is correct.

Am I correct that the HSE did not achieve the savings it wanted from the drugs cost savings scheme?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

In 2012?

Yes, or thereafter.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

It is on target now. The original intent, as set out in both the Estimates process and service plan for 2012, was for what we now refer to as the IPHA and APMI agreement to come into play in mid-2012. It did not. It came into play for the beginning of 2013 and it is now half way through its three-year term.

The savings were not achieved back then.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

No, but we are now achieving those savings. They were delayed but-----

Debt collection in terms of the hospitals and HSE has worsened.

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

Sorry, I believed the Chairman was building up the overall deficit.

These are different areas. I am just asking questions specific to the areas.

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

On debt collection, let us consider the period from the end of 2012 to the end of 2013, the last two completed years. Taking it that they are two components of the debt collection process – a piece on the HSE and the piece on the insurer side – the HSE has improved its measure of how quickly we are billing and collecting the debt, by about 7.5%. Unfortunately, the insurers have disimproved theirs by about 27 days, or 39%. It is important to say that if we are measuring this process against what we believe to be a process designed by the HSE for the efficient collection of the statutory charge, which is probably what we are regarding it as, that would be an incorrect measurement. This is not a process designed by the HSE and certainly not a process designed to collect the statutory charge efficiently. The HSE would be quite able to issue the statutory charge bill on the day of discharge or the day after. The insurers do not accept that charge until we provide them with a significant amount of additional information which is unrelated specifically to the statutory charge and its collection. This is a process designed to assist the private insurers to ensure they get sufficient information to allow them to pay the consultants who deliver services when they opt to go private in our public hospitals. It is not designed for the efficient collection of the statutory charge. We should not be measuring that concept. For the piece we control, we continue to improve our element. However, as we have often said, if we were able to issue our statutory charge on the day of discharge, as would be the norm in business, and it were paid within 30 days, it would make a very significant difference to the overall process.

Let me put that in business terms because we are working on the basis of a business. Consider the circumstances that would obtain if I issued an invoice on time, on the basis of my being very good at doing so, and it took 90 days to collect the money. Is that not similar?

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

It is not. In the Chairman's example, he provides a service and issues an invoice straight away. The service the statutory charge covers is effectively the overnight accommodation in the hospital. When one leaves the hospital, we have the capacity to issue the bill straight away but are prevented from doing so because the insurer will not accept it until we provide a whole lot of additional information largely unrelated to what the actual charge is seeking to collect. Then, once they receive it-----

What about the signing off by the consultants?

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

We cannot issue the bill until-----

Is that the signing off by the consultants?

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

Not solely. There is a whole series of documentation, including the signing off by consultants, that we must complete before we can issue the bill. Then the insurer goes through a process. We have a shared agenda with the insurers, that is, to be satisfied that people get a safe quality service at the lowest possible cost. However, over 95% of our bills are eventually paid by the insurer so we do not feel it is appropriate that they would hold our bill until every aspect of their more-or-less continually changing verification process, with which we do not have a problem, has gone through before paying. This is by no means a normal debtor’s collection process. As I said, if it were, it would be built-----

It is not working to its optimum.

Mr. Stephen Mulvany

It is doing what it was designed to do by those who designed it. It is not designed by the HSE to do what we are trying to do, that is, collect the statutory charge.

We will beg to differ on that. As Dr. McLoughlin said, the figure is running to €500 million this year. That is what he has been told.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

That is unless corrective action is taken.

Agency workers are now being used more than ever before. Is that correct? Are they costing more?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

In particular, in the non-consultant hospital doctor space.

And costing more?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

And costing more.

With regard to the absenteeism rate, the target was 3.5%. It is 4.7% now.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Which is an improvement on previous years. It is not incomparable with the figures for similar health systems in other jurisdictions.

Is the €619 million in savings mentioned related to the national service plan?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

That was mentioned earlier. The figure was previously €666 million and was revised to €619 million.

The €666 million has gone down.

On the section 38s, it is pretty clear from what Mr. O’Brien is telling us, in layman’s language, that we will end up with what he describes as red circles all over the place because the contractual arrangement between some of the agencies and their staff is in place or there will be sufficient evidence provided to cause HSE legal difficulty in pursuing this. That is probably the position. What Mr. O'Brien said this morning about what the Minister for Finance said in the Dáil in 1996 sort of gives them an opportunity to make the argument that the Minister said so. Would be fair to say that argument will be used?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

That argument has been used. I do not know whether it will be used in the context of this contractual entitlement. I do not believe many of the people involved would have been in post in 1996. However, that issue of ambiguity that was in place was absolutely clarified by the statement of policy from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department of Health in October 2013.

On section 38s, Mr. O'Brien probably would not have got so far with his investigation had it not been for the public uproar caused by the hearings we had here. Section 39s are in the same vein. Both section 38s and section 39s gave a clear indication to the public that the HSE had no handle on how either section was behaving in terms of accountability.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

As I said when I presented or discussed the original internal audit report, it is certainly clear that the arrangements could have been much tighter in the past. We are moving to a much tighter environment. All section-38 bodies and the bigger section-39 bodies - I will confine my remarks to section-38 bodies for this purpose - are now required to produce, as part of the submission of their annual accounts, a compliance certificate which covers many of the gaps that previously existed. This was suggested by the Comptroller and Auditor General at the meeting in question. I refer to a function that he would perform in relation to full public bodies that his staff audit. Their own auditors are now required not simply to audit with a view to ensuring the managerial pay is in conformity with the contract but also to ensuring it is in conformity with public policy. There will, in the future, be much more transparency. It is certainly true to say the work this committee undertook on some of the section-38 agencies has been very helpful to us in our process.

The HSE was almost negligent in terms of the past and compliance with sections 38 and 39.

That is why we are where we are at today. It has been a painstaking exercise that will probably yield little or nothing, apart from good governance for the future, compliance for as long as the red circle individuals exist in their employment and, thereafter, possibly a reduction in the salary to what is the norm by public service pay rates.

As regards section 39 bodies, we are not finished with either section yet, so God knows what is going to be uncovered. The CRC would never have been uncovered were it not for Deputy Ross questioning the accounts here and exposing what was eventually exposed across the charity sector. It showed the HSE had no handle on it whatsoever. I do not know what is in place now that can give us any comfort concerning section 38 and section 39 matters. We await the detailed report on both sections.

We have already discussed the Limerick issue and the cost of that, possibly just one individual, at €250,000. Mr. O'Brien says that this is posing huge difficulties across that sector in terms of the cost of filling those positions and the fact that no one was interested in the two public advertisement campaigns the HSE ran.

Then we have the cost over ten years of approximately €80 million for the accountancy reporting system. Who bears the cost of running the Department's parliamentary affairs division? Is it Dr. McLoughlin?

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

In terms of the Department of Health, the parliamentary affairs division consists of a principal officer and an assistant principal officer, with some clerical and administrative support. It is a very small unit.

Yes but how much does it cost to run it? They use paper, ink, time and telephones.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I will give the Chairman a specific number in due course. Taking the salary of a principal officer and an assistant principal officer, with some non-pay costs, it would be of the order of €200,000 plus.

Each hospital would be required to sign a service level agreement for 2013 on the understanding that expenditure for 2013 would have been managed within the available budget. Has all that been done?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

In terms of service level agreements, yes.

It says here that each hospital would be required to sign a service level agreement for 2013 on the understanding that the expenditure for 2013 would have to be managed within the available budget. I am asking whether that is being done. I understand that it is not.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

The signing or the managing within budget?

What is says here - that each hospital would be required to sign a service level agreement and to be managed within the available budget. That is not being done.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Every acute hospital is the subject of a signed service level agreement. That part is correct.

Each and every hospital?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Yes. They are either subject to a fresh agreement or a roll-over agreement.

Were they in place in 2013?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Each hospital, yes.

But they are not operating within their budget.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

No. That is a matter of record.

Yes, that is okay. As regards changes to hospital budgets in process, the HSE has adopted a new approach on developing budgets for individual hospitals. Budget allocations are now related to project spend. Mr. O'Brien is familiar with that paragraph.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Is the Chairman reading from chapter 21?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

Sorry. Did we change the budget process? Yes we did, but we could not go as far as we wanted because we did not have the funds to do so.

No, it is not being done.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

It is being done in part.

But it is not being done in full.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

No, not in full.

It is because of the budget. Generally speaking, we have dealt with all the other stuff. As I said to Mr. O'Brien, it is a business. On all the major fronts, in my opinion, you have failed. As a representative of the shareholders, I am sure if they were all here they would probably look at Dr. McLoughlin, because he negotiates the budget in-house before it gets political on the other side, and Mr. O'Brien and consider that both of them should resign. It seems to me that this is a sort of Groundhog Day in that we deal with the same issues every single time they come before us.

We had Cathal Magee here a number of years ago who said that the HSE was not fit for purpose. We have seen the same problems being debated here today. Half the population of the country are frightened out of their lives. Individual medical card holders and their families are unable to cope with costs or a system that has failed them.

People may call for the Minister to resign, which is political on that side and is a different argument. If I was acting for my shareholders, looking at the organisation, I would say that they are not fit for purpose and should go. All of these figures and projections point to that. Not only have they not reached their targets or exceeded them, but they are also employing people at a massive amount of money. At the same time, the public are looking on with utter disgust at how the medical card process has been managed.

People who rely on medical cards are turning up at their chemists, as Deputy O'Donnell has said, and are being told at that stage that they do not have a valid medical card. During the election campaign a man stopped me in the street in Kilkenny. He ran after me when I passed his house. He was caring for somebody in there who was terminally ill. Someone rang the GP to ask if that was right, even though the GP had filled out forms and sent messages about how urgent it was. Every time an elderly or sick person is asked for evidence of their condition, they are now being charged by the GP for that letter. GPs are now turning up at the doorsteps of elected public representatives and accusing us of insisting on the letters. In fact, however, Mr. O'Brien and Dr. McLoughlin are insisting on those letters for people who are sick or dying and relying on the system for their medical cards and their medication. Nobody seems to understand the pain that is being inflicted upon them. The letters that are sent out are not helpful. So many letters go out seeking the same information.

I want to confirm something for Dr. McLoughlin and Mr. O'Brien. I have had to put in a scanning system in my own office to scan the material that goes to the HSE for these unfortunate people who are waiting. That is because when the day arrives, and it seems to be inevitable that it will arrive, that the HSE requests the information again, I can scan it again to the HSE without extra cost.

Can I just make a point?

No, I am sorry, Deputy. Let me finish. I will let you in again.

I am concurring on that.

What is going on is shocking. This is not a political point which is for the House. It is an administrative point. In terms of administration, Dr. McLoughlin and Mr. O'Brien have failed the public. That is now a widely held view. That is what leads me to believe that the HSE is not fit for purpose.

The earlier part of this meeting was similar to the exchange Dr. McLoughlin had with Deputy Fleming, not wishing to go back there. Mr. O'Brien is willingly going to give us the information and details on that budget proposal because it was released under a freedom of information request. As a senior civil servant, Dr. McLoughlin has, not for the first time, shown a huge disrespect to this committee by attempting to stonewall me in my questions to him. They were straightforward questions.

The matters are available in the public domain since they were furnished under freedom of information. There is something lacking in the Department. In respect of the emphasis on the budget required to run the HSE, the message is not getting across. Regardless of how difficult times are, nobody wants to see senior citizens in the situation in which they now find themselves. When they reflect on the list I have just read out of inefficiencies, poor spending, poor value for money, failure to achieve goals, and Groundhog Day all over again, they will be further disgusted.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

I want to comment, which I do with great respect. The Chairman asked me to comment on a Government decision and to say whether the HSE got the correct budget. Government decided on the budget. We have been through an extraordinary international economic crisis at a financial level. I clarify that the recent reductions in expenditure per capita in Ireland are the highest experienced in any OECD country with the exception of Greece. I ask the committee to understand that as a civil servant, I am obliged to carry out the decisions of the Government and the Minister in these matters, as is Mr. O'Brien. We accept that we are in an extremely challenging environment and will do everything we can to take on board the constructive recommendations the Chairman and many members of the committee have made in respect of medical cards and other issues. However, Ireland's position in terms of public health expenditure has changed dramatically. We have lost €3 billion and 12,000 staff since 2008. We have been providing more services for less and reached a point where we will have to provide less for less. We have done everything we can.

I am precluded from getting into the political space, but I want the committee to understand that I have been diligent in every respect in terms of discharging my office, as has Mr. O'Brien. The health committee of the Cabinet is made aware of our concerns and those of our Ministers. Our Ministers have stated in public that there have been very significant reductions. At the same time, there have been dramatic improvements in productivity. We are working on Haddington Road and dealing with a variety of issues. We have seen significant reductions in cost - a macro number of €950 million from 2007 to 2013 in respect of drug costs - but there are significant challenges in reforming the health system. We are addressing that.

I want to recognise the contribution the committee made to section 38 and 39 bodies. However, I remind the committee respectfully that it was the Department of Health and its Minister who uncovered this following a HIQA report and sought the investigations. We are obliged to follow due process. We share the committee's concerns and will deal with the issues in a proper manner having regard to natural justice. We will get the very best result in respect of the top-ups and all our actions will, of course, be subject to audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General in due course.

In response to that and to clarify the record, I did not ask you anything about policy. I asked you what figure you had asked for in the context of the negotiations. Mr. O'Brien willingly gave that figure. I understand all of the other things. I do not need a lecture on where we are economically. We have all felt the pinch in relation to where we are. I am just asking for the information so that we can understand it. If Mr. O'Brien cannot run his show on what he is getting, perhaps there is a need for everyone to understand that he needs to get more.

There have been some changes in relation to the HSE and its management, but I cannot ignore all of what is here and all of what has been reported by the Comptroller and Auditor General year in and year out. These are the facts. This is what is happening. The HSE is engaging with medical card holders and treating them as it is while at the same time significant money is not being pursued with the same vigour elsewhere. There is a balance to be struck. I am not asking Dr. McLoughlin about policy. I am just anxious to get at the facts. That is what I want to get at. Mr. O'Brien has been helpful in giving those facts.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

To be fair to my colleagues, I want to be clear that what I am giving the Chairman is not what he asked Dr. McLoughlin for. I am giving him what he asked me for, which was the submission the HSE made. Dr. McLoughlin is the Secretary General who engages in an entirely different space from the policy space in which I engage. Giving the committee things which are subject to the Freedom of Information Act and amount to no more than the submissions we made to the Department is a relatively easy thing for me to do.

That is what we want.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I know, but Dr. McLoughlin's job is not exactly the same or as easy. He is engaged in a different part of the process.

I know that, but I will judge when I get the figures from you as to how successful Dr. McLoughlin is.

On the facts, how many medical cards have been withdrawn in total since the start of the year?

Mr. John Hennessy

The number of new cards issued this year is just under 50,000 and the number of cards which have been cancelled for various reasons amounts to 97,000. That is a reduction of just under 50,000.

Of the 97,000 cards, how many of those were discretionary cards?

Mr. John Hennessy

At total of 1,190.

What are the other 97,000? How many are for over 70s?

Mr. John Hennessy

The over 70s are not broken down on this.

They must be included in the 97,000.

Mr. John Hennessy

They are. Of the cards, 80,000 were withdrawn because people chose not to renew or did not follow up on correspondence. A further 5,953 were found to be related to deceased persons while 8,735 were refused and 2,763 were removed by general practitioners in the normal way. The 2,763 figure includes deceased patients as well. That comes to 97,000. To balance that out, 49,184 new cards were added in the same period, of which 5,478 were granted on a discretionary basis. The interesting pattern is the net reduction. For a period of approximately eight years, we saw a net month-on-month increase.

There is a net reduction of 47,000 cards.

Mr. John Hennessy

There is a pattern of reduction so far this year.

On the 80,000 cards withdrawn, surely the HSE's systems are sophisticated enough to give a breakdown between the under 70s and over 70s.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

There are probably very few over 70s. The Oireachtas voted through changes in the thresholds to come into effect this year, which triggered review processes which commenced in February. The reviews take three months and that has consequences for the impact. These are targeted reviews focused on approximately 65,000 of the population which are now coming to conclusion. In that context, the chances that there are many over 70s in the big figure is very small.

What was the total cost saving? What is the approximate cost of each medical card?

Mr. John Hennessy

It is difficult to quantify, but the average if one takes the 1.8 million cards is slightly in excess of €1,000.

Of the 97,000 cards which were withdrawn, how many were full medical cards and how many were GP-visit cards?

Mr. John Hennessy

I would need to come back to the Deputy on that.

Can we take it that the bulk of the 97,000 cards are full medical cards?

Mr. John Hennessy

Yes.

What was the total cost saving? Are we talking about the period to the end of May?

Mr. John Hennessy

It is to the end of April.

It does not take into account April and May then. What has been the total cost saving?

Mr. John Hennessy

I would have to do some arithmetic to quantify that for the Deputy, but I am sure we can get the information.

With due respect, the HSE must have that figure. It is an organisation with a budget of €13 billion. It must know. It is in the process of trying to save money.

Mr. John Hennessy

Our accounts for the end of April 2014 show a positive variance of the PCRS, which includes medical cards as the main contributor. We are approximately €5 million to the good at the end of April.

That is made up of many factors, in particular the cost reductions achieved in drug pricing. The Deputy may recall we spoke earlier about the IPHA agreement.

There is a target of €23 million.

Mr. John Hennessy

This year the target for drug cost reductions will come in at €28 million, plus €50 million if one includes-----

I am only really interested in the medical card targets.

Mr. John Hennessy

The prescription charges are there as well with targets to be achieved. Under medical cards and probity, there are two figures: €23 million under normal probity, which is being achieved and is on track, and €25 million for the over 70s change in the guidelines announced in the budget. We are on track to achieve our targets for 2014.

As I said earlier, we are trying always to get a balance between control and customer service. People are alerted by letter three months before a review of their medical card. In the case of the over 70s, they are alerted four months out. This is to give them notice their card is up for review, that they need to complete the forms and return them by a specified date. The forms are relatively straightforward and I invite anyone to take a look at them. I agree they are comprehensive but if one’s circumstances are straightforward, such as a pension income, one skips whole sections of the form and goes through to the signature part at the end.

Up to 70% of the cards that are reviewed are done so by self-assessment, as in one signs the form and returns it. The other 30% are full assessment. If a card is being withdrawn, one is notified by letter twice. People do not go into a pharmacy to be told their card is being withdrawn without having received two letters.

Mr. Hennessy is factually correct in that. Legally he is correct but in substance he is incorrect. What is happening with the over 70s is that they are sent a letter reminding them to return the information to the HSE before a due date. If their card is withdrawn, they get no letter. It is not on the letter sent out that their card will be withdrawn at the end of, say, June. I am sorry but I am not going to even argue the toss about that.

Mr. John Hennessy

I am not going to argue with the Deputy either.

You are wrong. Putting it out that the over 70s are informed their medical cards are withdrawn is factually inaccurate.

Mr. John Hennessy

Deputy-----

No, at the end of the day we are going around in circles. The substance of this is very simple. The public does not want a situation whereby medical cards are withdrawn. From now on, there will be very simple rules. No one gets their medical card withdrawn without being written to and told their card is being withdrawn. We are trying to be helpful here. I will not let an application form for a medical card go from my office to the HSE without it being scanned as I cannot take the risk of it being lost, which invariably happens. Many of these applicants are elderly and sick.

Why does the HSE have a system of review when only 4% of medical cards are withdrawn in the end? It should be the same as the rule with Revenue. One chases the people that owe money while leaving law-abiding citizens go about their business.

Mr. John Hennessy

To be fair, we are targeting our review process and liaising closely with the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Protection to inform that, which is proving quite successful.

What percentage of reviews lead to the loss of a medical card?

Mr. John Hennessy

I covered it earlier.

Mr. Hennessy said between 4% and 6%.

Mr. John Hennessy

That figure is for those refused.

It is very simple from my perspective.

Mr. Tony O'Brien

If Deputy O’Donnell would let Mr. Hennessy finish the answer.

Mr. John Hennessy

Can I give the Deputy the example of the over 70s group? There are 370,000 over 70s holding medical cards, the majority of that cohort of the population. The number of people selected for review in light of the budgetary changes to the guidelines this year was 60,000. This was done in liaison with the Revenue Commissioners in an attempt to target the acknowledged higher income households. The majority of the 370,000 holders have heard nothing from us and continue to use their cards as normal

That is 60,000 since the start of the year.

Mr. John Hennessy

That is 60,000 that have been selected for review on the basis of income change for 2014.

How many of these have been completed?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

About 20,000.

Mr. John Hennessy

The process only commenced in February when the rule changes kicked in.

When did the tender process for Limerick Regional Hospital get under way?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

As I have said, I will come back to the committee with details on that.

Would it be fair to say it is only just under way?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

I have to get back to the Deputy on that.

I welcome the witnesses. Having listened for the past several hours about medical cards, I appreciate and understand the percentages and the financial constraints under which we all are, as does everyone in the country. However, the harm that has been done by the review is frightening. I recently had the case of an 87 year old whose medical card was reviewed six months ago and was reviewed again recently. I appreciate Mr. Hennessy’s point that the forms are comprehensive but quite simple. They might be to us who look at forms every day of the week, but for someone over 80 living on their own, they instil fear. Every member agrees on this. While I welcome the fact the HSE will go back to the drawing board on this, there has to be a better way of communicating.

Has any of the HSE delegation spent 24 hours in an accident and emergency department in any one of our hospitals in the past six months, preferably at the busiest time, Monday night?

Mr. Tony O'Brien

No, not in the past six months.

Mr. John Hennessy

I have been in one with one of mine with a hurling injury but it was not for that long.

Can I respectfully suggest the heads of the Department and the HSE do that? It is an absolutely wonderful experience to find out how our accident and emergency departments are operating. I can assure them it will be an eye-opener. This is not about money but operations. The constraints under which staff are working and the bullying going on in our hospitals are nothing short of frightening.

The committee will pass on a letter it received today concerning the estates in Kilmainham. I understand up to 1,200 eye operations at Waterford Regional Hospital were moved to Cork. The hospital claims this amounts to a loss of revenue for it of up to €2.28 million. When an eye operation is carried out on a public patient in a private hospital, is there a top-up charge of €500? I do not expect the HSE to have the answer straight away but it can come back to us on that.

When Cathal Magee was questioned by the committee some time ago about section 38 agencies, he understood then there was an issue that would be approached in some way. That is just for the record, Dr. McLoughlin.

Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin

For the record Chairman, I was the chairman of the HSE and I requested Mr. Magee, following consultations with the Minister, to have an internal audit in this respect carried out.

There is one item I need to address before I leave the meeting. In September 2013, more than 1.8 million medical cards were in circulation, covering 43% of the population and representing an increase of 590,000 or 46% since the start of our economic crisis in 2008.

The reality of life is that the health service budgets across the system are under pressure. These budgets are determined not by me or the head of the HSE but by Government and Government was operating under extraordinarily serious constraints until the recent departure of the troika at the end of last year. We will learn from the experience we had today and the observations of the members but we have been through an extraordinarily difficult period and the budgets of the health system are squeezed to the bone. Ministers have made this clear in public. However, it is ultimately a matter for the political system to decide the level of funding it wishes to put into the health care system. It is not a matter for officials and I completely reject the contention that I or Mr. O'Brien have acted improperly. I have discharged my office with due diligence and I have discharged every single request that has been made of me by the Department of Health and its Minister.

Notwithstanding all the challenges we face, there have been significant improvements in the Irish health system and enhanced productivity that has been recognised. As Secretary General, I recognise the difficulties that staff on the ground have in extraordinarily difficult circumstances with increasing pressures. These include an ageing population, increasing chronicity, in other words, people having more complex issues, and increasing challenges in the context of the manpower area, which have been there for many years. We have initiated the Brian McGrath exercise where we are looking at career structures for non-consultant hospital doctors and consultants. The Minister will make significant announcements in due course that will deal with problems that have been part of the Irish health system since 2003. The reality of life is that we are in a challenging environment. I am asking the members of this committee to understand that those challenges are very significant and I will leave it at that.

We understand that those challenges are very significant. We are not questioning the policy or the political input in terms of budgets. We are questioning operational matters and the figures speak for themselves. The Comptroller and Auditor General's reports over the past few years speak for themselves. They are there for everyone to read. I strongly hold the view that I hold. I have not changed one iota and what Dr. McLoughlin has said to me today has not convinced me that he understands what is going on. The fact of the matter is that people around this table and other committees in this House have applauded and commented favourably on the work that is being done by the front-line services. In my opinion, those people on the front line are the band aid that holds the system together.

Is it agreed to dispose of Vote 38, Vote 39 and chapters 21 and 22 of the 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General? Agreed.

The witnesses withdrew.
The committee adjourned at 1.43 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 19 June 2014.
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