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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 22 Jan 2015

Business of Committee

Are the minutes of the meeting of 18 December 2014 agreed? Agreed. Are there any matters arising from the minutes? No.

We will now deal with correspondence. No. 3A.1 is correspondence dated 18 December 2014 from Mr. Tom O'Mahony, Secretary General, Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, which is a follow-up to the committee meeting on 2 October 2014 with The Irish Sports Council, to be noted and published.

No. 3A.2 is correspondence dated 23 December 2013 from Ms Elaine Byrne, deputy registrar of credit unions at the Central Bank of Ireland. It is a follow-up to our meeting on 11 December, to be noted and published. No. 3A.3 is correspondence dated 27 November 2014 from Mr. John Pollock, National Paediatric Hospital Development Board, following up our meeting on 23 October 2014, to be noted and published. No. 3A.4 is correspondence dated 22 December 2014, which we referred to in our previous discussion, from the Revenue Commissioners on our meeting on 4 December 2014, to be noted and published. We might write to Mr. Ryan and ask the clerk to send either this letter or the appropriate parts of the letter where Ms Feehily responded and said she would be in touch.

I turn to individual correspondence. No. 3B.1 is correspondence dated 17 December 2014 from Mr. Brendan Ryan, CEO of the Courts Service - responses regarding expenses claims, to be noted and published. No. 3B.2 is correspondence dated 17 December 2014 from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills, re Gaelscoil an Ghoirt Alainn, to be noted and published. No. 3B.3 is correspondence dated 17 December 2014 from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General, Department of Education and Skills, re education provision in Rathkeale, County Limerick, to be noted and published. No. 3B.4 is correspondence dated 18 December 2014 from the Department of Justice and Equality re wards of court, to be noted. A draft report is being prepared for the wards of court. No. 3B.5 is correspondence dated 17 December 2014 from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General, Department of Education and Skills, re fee-charging schools, to be noted and a copy forwarded to Dr. Bríd McGrath. No. 3B.6 is correspondence dated 22 December 2014 from Mr. Jim Breslin, Secretary General, Department of Health, re NMBI annual accounts, to be noted and a copy forwarded to the individuals who raised the issue. No. 3B.7 is correspondence dated 22 December 2014 from Mr. Derek Moran, Secretary General, Department of Finance, re issues regarding resources in the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, to be noted and published. No. 3B.8 is correspondence dated 22 December 2014 from Mr. John Murphy, Secretary General, Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, re issues with payment of contractors at UCC, to be noted and published. This is a matter that was raised by Deputy John Deasy and we will come back to it when he returns. No. 3B.9 is correspondence dated 5 January 2015 from Ms. Audrey Naughton re local property tax and private management charges, to be noted and forwarded to the Department of Finance for a note on the issue. No. 3B.10 is correspondence dated 5 January 2015 from Mr. Tom Moran, Secretary General, Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, re cost to the State of case with Mr. John Fleury, to be noted. The Department has not addressed the issue of costs and I propose that the Accounting Officer be asked to get that information for the committee. That information is compiled by the Chief State Solicitor. Can we write directly to the Chief State Solicitor?

Clerk to the Committee

We can, yes.

We will do that as well as writing to the Secretary General. No. 3B.12 is correspondence dated 12 January 2015 from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General, Department of Education and Skills, re terms and conditions of employment in UCC, to be noted and a copy forwarded to Elizabeth Noonan. No. 3B.13 is correspondence dated 12 January 2015 from Mr. Brendan Ryan, CEO of the Courts Service, re wards of court, to be noted and a copy to be forwarded to Mr. Gerry Naughton. No. 3B.14 is correspondence dated 13 January 2015 from Mr. Jim O’Callaghan re the Irish Jewish Museum, to be noted and a copy to be forwarded to the OPW for a reply on the matters raised. Can we flag No. 3B.14 for an early reply to ensure we get a comprehensive response? It is an issue we have dealt with previously.

Clerk to the Committee

We have the OPW coming in very shortly.

No. 3B.15 is correspondence dated 15 January 2015 from Dr. Patricia Mulcahy, President of Carlow Institute of Technology, re merger with WIT, to be noted and published. This issue can also be dealt with at today's meeting.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There was also correspondence from the President of Waterford Institute of Technology.

Clerk to the Committee

It was No. 3B.11.

Is there any correspondence from the technological university of Dublin; the amalgamation of DIT, Blanchardstown IT and IT Tallaght? That seems to be the only one that is missing.

Clerk to the Committee

The reason there is correspondence from Waterford and Carlow is that their issue is stalled. Deputy Costello can certainly raise the other issue with the HEA when its representatives attend today. We did not have to write about it because there does not appear to be an issue.

Nos. 3C.1 to 3C.5, inclusive, are the opening statements and the briefing notes from the Department, the HEA and the National College of Art and Design, to be noted and published. Nos. 3C.6 to 3C.9, inclusive, are documents received from Arthur Cox Solicitors, Eames Solicitors and Mr. Gerry Ryan which were dealt with in the earlier session.

Nos. 4.1 to 4.19, inclusive, are reports, statements and accounts received since our meeting of 18 December 2014, and they are listed in the document circulated to members. The accounts are noted but a number of issues arise which may require further examination by the committee, including that of St. James's Hospital and the HSE and the extent to which unauthorised remuneration was paid, the rates involved and the steps being taken to end those payments. I suggest we write to the HSE on the report on top-ups which was to be completed last September, but which we have not received. We should write to the HSE to get the details of where that issue is at so that the committee can discuss it.

Is the HSE due to come before the committee?

It is due in April. The Comptroller and Auditor General might outline the position in respect of the special EU programme body. Is there a report due in this context on the North-South bodies?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There is a report which I have completed. I am working with my colleague in Northern Ireland and we are preparing parallel reports, which will be published together. They involve the way a grant paid through the special EU programme body was administered. There are concerns about that grant. We expect the reports to be published on 3 March 2015.

Can Mr. McCarthy comment in relation to FETAC and the €1.6 million cost to the State?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

FETAC no longer exists. It has been incorporated with a number of other awards bodies into a single body called Quality and Qualifications Authority of Ireland. When FETAC existed, it had a premises in the East Point Business Park which was rationalised when the amalgamation happened. As it had a lease that ran until 2017, FETAC was tied into the payment commitment. At the point where the bodies amalgamated, it sub-let the property but did not get the full value back. As such, under accounting standards, it was required to recognise at an earlier date the loss that will accrue over the four years to 2017 in its financial statements. This has resulted in the provision of €1.6 million in respect of the loss. FETAC had also made repairs and improvements to the property which it was depreciating over the life of the lease, but because it will no longer get the benefit of that, it must also accelerate the depreciation. That resulted in a further write-off of €750,000.

Is that on top of the €1.6 million?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes. The €1.6 million relates to the rent that will be paid in excess of the rent that will be taken in from the sub-tenant.

Did the Department of Education and Skills have oversight in that case?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The Department of Education and Skills is the oversight body for Quality and Qualifications Ireland.

There seem to be huge costs with regard to GMIT.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There was an incident of plagiarism, or an event with regard to examinations in the college. In the course of investigating it the college incurred a total cost of €436,000, of which €187,000 was incurred in the year of account ending 31 August 2013. The college disclosed the cost of the investigation in the financial statements for 2013.

We should get a note on it. Our work programme is on the screen. Next week we will deal with the Department of the Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, which accounts for the National Gallery of Ireland.

Clerk to the Committee

Yes, a number of issues arise there.

I have asked the clerk to make arrangements for a meeting to hear from the various individuals affected by the investigations of the special investigations unit with regard to costs. I suggest we arrange this meeting as soon as we can, perhaps on a day other than Thursday.

Clerk to the Committee

We have a free day on 19 February. We will certainly do it.

I suggest we do it earlier than this if we can, in late January or early February.

Clerk to the Committee

That is fine.

The Dublin Docklands Development Authority is conspicuous by its absence from the work programme. I indicated on a number of occasions that matters with regard to the disposal of property need to be queried and it would be great if it came before the committee at an early stage.

Clerk to the Committee

It is scheduled to come before the committee on 26 March. It has very few staff and is dependent on a consultant to produce its annual statements. The annual statements have not yet been published for 2013. They have been signed off. It is a timing issue. I have asked the Dublin Docklands Development Authority for a note on the issue raised by the Deputy with regard to the disposal of property and I will have it for next week's meeting.

When is the Comptroller and Auditor General's report due?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

In what regard?

The financial statements of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The 2013 financial statements have been signed. I have completed it. I am not sure whether it is with the Dublin Docklands Development Authority or the Department. They should be submitted to the Minister.

In Deputy Deasy's absence we dealt with correspondence on the payment of contractors. If Deputy Deasy wishes he can examine it and we can come back to it before the end of the meeting.

I thank the Chairman.

We also dealt with correspondence regarding the Irish Sports Council and an issue arising from the Millstreet events centre. The request was made by the committee before Christmas that intervention be made to try to resolve the issues. We received correspondence by courier prior to our last meeting in December but it did not resolve the matter. I will ask the clerk to write to the agency concerned with a request for a report, following which we can have an early separate meeting on the matter to determine the exposure to the State and how the agency intends to resolve it. It is an unresolved issue from the meeting and it is important that we hear it. We can have a separate meeting on it or we can meet before a scheduled meeting to get the up to date report on it.

Are we satisfied with the work programme?

I wish to ask the clerk whether he knows off the top of his head how many times the Department of Social Protection and the HSE come before the committee per year. Is it normally once or twice?

Clerk to the Committee

It depends on the number of chapters in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Normally the HSE comes before the committee at least twice a year and the Department of Social Protection generally comes before the committee once a year although it is a big spending Department.

That is my point. The Department of Social Protection spends approximately €20 billion. The amount has been reduced slightly in recent years. The Department of Health spend is probably approximately €13 billion. We must deal with every agency, and in some cases we deal with them once every two or three years. Some of the agencies do not see the inside of this room during the term of an Administration and I understand this. Is there a case to be made that the Department of Social Protection and the HSE should come before the committee more frequently considering the amount of money involved? The remit of the committee is to examine spend and value for money. The Department of Social Protection comes here only once a year. An argument can be made it should come before the committee more frequently. This is not to say it is doing anything wrong or spending money improperly, but based on the spend it is reasonable.

Clerk to the Committee

We can examine it.

In writing to the Office of the Chief State Solicitor we might ask when the proceedings against Mr. Shine in Donegal were initiated so we can determine when the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine instructed the Office of the Chief State Solicitor and when it took action. It is with regard to detail rather than an intervention.

Will the clerk respond to my question?

Clerk to the Committee

It is a matter entirely for the committee. Sometimes the issue with the Department of Social Protection is regularity, as the majority, or 99%, of the payments are fine. It is only when the Comptroller and Auditor General raises specific concerns about individual schemes that we are inclined to examine the issue. I will speak to the Chairman about it and we will see whether we can have a more regular schedule for the Department of Social Protection. Sometimes it is difficult when it comes before the committee because members want to raise a range of issues. It is very hard to compartmentalise and deal with one scheme.

Ultimately the question is for the Comptroller and Auditor General. Given its budget of €21 billion can he really deal with the Department of Social Protection in one meeting per year considering the complexity and variety of issues? I know what I deal with in my constituency offices. The problems people experience usually take up half a day because they are complex. Policy issues arise all the time with regard to how money is spent or not spent. An argument can be made that the Department should come before the committee more frequently.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I suggest the committee examines the programme and schedule issues to discuss with the Department. Rather than bringing in the Department of Social Protection to cover everything, the committee could identify some issues to be discussed with the Department. The meeting could focus on these and the committee could explain to the Department that it will be brought before the committee again to discuss the remainder of the issues. Accounting Officers coming before the committee for a meeting which has a completely broad canvas must prepare everything with regard to their business. They are able to deal with many issues, not exactly off the cuff but because they have general familiarity, but if the committee flags specific interests to an Accounting Officer it could lead to a more focused and effective meeting.

There is one other matter. The Committee of Public Accounts and its equivalent in Northern Ireland must meet some time in March in relation to a Comptroller and Auditor General's report, and the clerk to the committee is preparing the detail of that. When it is available, we will come back. The meeting will be held in Belfast.

As there is not any other business, is it agreed that our agenda for Thursday, 29 January 2015, will be to examine Vote 33 - Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Chapter 9 - Accounting for the National Gallery of Ireland Expenditure, and Financial Statements of the National Library of Ireland 2012 and 2013? Agreed.

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