Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Feb 2015

Enterprise Ireland - Financial Statement 2013

Mr. Martin Shanahan(CEO, IDA Ireland), and Ms Julie Sinnamon(CEO, Enterprise Ireland), called and examined.

Today we are to examine the 2013 financial statements of the IDA and Enterprise Ireland. Before we begin the meeting I ask members, witnesses and those in the Public Gallery to please turn off their mobile telephones as they interfere with the sound quality and transmission of the meeting.

I advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter to only a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given, and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 163 that a committee should also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Mr. Martin Shanahan, CEO of IDA Ireland, and I ask him to please introduce his officials.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Thank you, Chairman and the committee for the opportunity to present to it this morning. I am accompanied by Mr. Dermot Clohessy, executive director of the IDA, Ms Mary Buckley, divisional manager responsible for corporate affairs and regions, and Ms Regina Gannon, chief financial officer.

It is not Mr. Shanahan's first time before the PAC but it is his first time to appear in his current role.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Yes, it is the first time in this role.

I invite Ms Sinnamon to please introduce her officials.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Good morning, Chairman. I am joined by Mr. Niall O'Donnellan, head of investment services and policy, Mr. Kevin Sherry, head of international sales and partnering and Mr. Tom Hayes, head of regions and entrepreneurship.

This is Ms Sinnamon's first time before the committee.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

It is, Chairman.

Members should treat the witnesses kindly or test them as best they can. I invite the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Enterprise Ireland’s main objectives are to support sustainable economic growth, and to deliver regional development and employment in Ireland. In pursuit of those objectives, Enterprise Ireland provides direct financial support to companies in the form of development grants and equity investments. It also promotes research and development activity in Ireland by funding projects involving collaboration between industry and third level education institutions, and focused on realising the commercial potential of research.

Enterprise Ireland’s main source of income is in the form of Oireachtas grants paid out of the Vote for the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. In 2013, these totalled €279 million - down from €290 million in 2012. In addition, Enterprise Ireland administered grant funding amounting to €11.2 million on behalf of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Department of Education and Skills. It also generated €10.8 million in income from refunds of financial support, returns on its investments, rental of industrial property and professional fee income.

In 2013, Enterprise Ireland incurred expenditure of €263 million. This included €92 million on grant assistance for science and technology development, €51 million on company development grant assistance and indirect support, €35 million on grant funding to the county and city enterprise boards, business innovation centres and the Crafts Council of Ireland, and €81 million on administration costs, including a pay bill of around €58 million.

Enterprise Ireland holds a significant investment portfolio. At the end of 2013, its equity investment portfolio spanned more than 1,000 mainly unquoted companies, with a net book value of €152 million. It also had significant holdings managed through its seed and venture capital fund with a net book value of €118 million. Enterprise Ireland carries out annual impairment reviews on both equity investments and seed and venture capital funds.

The financial statements for 2013 received an unqualified opinion. Since the balance sheet date, the county and city enterprise boards have been dissolved and replaced with a network of local enterprise offices, based in local authorities. On the dissolution of the enterprise boards, their assets and liabilities were transferred to Enterprise Ireland. I plan to examine that transfer in the context of the audit of Enterprise Ireland’s financial statements for 2014.

The primary role of IDA Ireland is to attract foreign direct investment to Ireland, including encouraging already established foreign-owned companies to invest further here. It does that by promoting Ireland as an attractive location to potential investors, through the payment of grant aid in appropriate cases and through the development of industrial property which is readily available for use by potential investors.

The IDA received State grants of around €129 million in 2013. Its other income included profits on the disposal of assets, grant refunds and rental income. In 2013, the IDA incurred expenditure of €147 million, including €88 million in grants to enterprises in support of research and development activity, capital investment, employment and training, just under €32 million spent on pay, administration and general expenses, €9 million spent on marketing, consultancy, promotions and advertising and just under €5 million on expenses related to the property portfolio.

At the end of 2013, the IDA’s property portfolio had a net book value of approximately €100 million. The IDA revalues property based on reviews carried out internally or by independent valuers, as appropriate, where there are indications that the carrying amount may not be recoverable. The impairment charge in 2013 was €4.8 million.

The financial statements for 2013 received an unqualified opinion. However, my audit report drew attention to ongoing non-effective expenditure, amounting to €1.3 million in 2013. This relates to rent and associated costs of unoccupied office space in two buildings assigned in 2013 to the IDA from the former Forfás when it was dissolved. Most of this expense relates to Carrisbrook House in Ballsbridge, which has been largely unoccupied for many years. The committee has previously considered this matter when it examined Forfás financial statements.

I thank Mr. McCarthy. I invite Mr. Shanahan to make his opening statement.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I thank the committee for the opportunity to present to it this morning. I have already provided to the committee a detailed briefing note. In presenting the 2013 annual accounts I will make a few brief introductory remarks.

IDA Ireland, as the committee will know, is the Government agency responsible for attracting foreign direct investment, FDI, into Ireland. In 2013, the accounts under review this morning, we reported a positive year and this continued in 2014 with a growing number of greenfield investments, expansions and transformations by existing companies. At the end of 2013, the IDA client base in Ireland in terms of employment was 167,000 jobs and this had increased to 174,488 jobs at the end of 2014, the highest level in the history of IDA Ireland.

There were 164 investments won in 2013 and 197 investments won in 2014, an increase of 20% year-on-year. There was a notable rise in new name investment, with 88 new name investors in 2014, equating to a 13% increase on 2013. Among the leading investments secured during 2013 were Deutsche Bank, Twitter, eBay, Salesforce, Novartis, Vistakon, Facebook and Zurich. First time investments were secured from corporations across the portfolio including from Qualcomm, Airbnb, Tripadvisor, Regeneron, Huawei, and Alexion.

Among the leading investments secured during 2014 were Amazon, Bristol-Myers Squibb, BMS, Fidelity, LinkedIn, PayPal, Ericsson, SAP, Johnson & Johnson, West Pharmaceuticals and Adroll. There were job gains across most sectors but particularly in digital media and content, technology, international financial services, pharma and medical devices and business services.

IDA’s strategy, Horizon 2020, which covered the period 2010 to 2014, came to an end in December 2014. IDA exceeded the key jobs and investment targets set out under that strategy. For the five years of the strategy, IDA achieved a net increase in employment of 28,242, against a target of 25,000.

IDA achieved a gross increase in employment of 65,066 against a target of 62,000 over the same time period and this resulted in a total impact of 110,612 against a target of 105,000. This job performance took place against a particularly challenging European and global economic environment.

IDA is currently developing a new strategy for foreign direct investment and this will be formally announced over the coming weeks. The strategy will set out the organisation's targets for the next five years including how and where we intend to win the next wave of sophisticated investment for Ireland.

IDA is a key contributor to the Government's annual Action Plan for Jobs process and is responsible for the delivery of key actions therein.

Horizon 2020 set down ambitious regional economic development targets for the dispersal of investments in regions outside Dublin and Cork. While these have been challenging, 2014 saw a much-improved year for regional dispersal with 37% of investments going outside Dublin and Cork. That is the best performance over the last five years and up 30% on what was recorded in 2013.

Examples of regional announcements in 2013 include Regeneron, Cook, Vistakon and ACI in Limerick. There was also eBay and National Pen in Dundalk and Overstock in Sligo, among many others.

In 2014 there were announcements from Jazz Pharmaceuticals in Roscommon, Becton Dickinson in Drogheda, West Pharma in Waterford, Teleflex in Athlone and Clearstream Technologies in Enniscorthy again amongst others.

The committee may be aware that yesterday the Government announced a capital investment programme of €150 million over the next five years to underpin IDA's regional approach which will be announced as part of the organisation's overall strategy in the coming weeks. Specifically, nine new advanced technology buildings will be constructed over the next three years, commencing with Tralee, Castlebar and Sligo in 2015, followed by Athlone, Dundalk, Carlow, Limerick, Galway and Waterford over the following two years.

Foreign direct investment is an area which continued to perform during the economic crisis and Ireland has been very successful in attracting many of the world's most innovative and sophisticated companies to set up operations here.

FDI has a significant impact on the wider economy with €124.5 billion of exports from IDA clients in 2013, up 2% on 2012. Some 66% of corporation tax that is paid is paid by IDA client companies. IDA client companies spent €22.4 billion in the Irish economy in 2013, €8.5 billion of which is payroll. We estimate 10,000 jobs in construction in 2014 as a result of FDI activity around the country.

The improvement in Ireland's macroeconomic and fiscal situation now provides a positive backdrop for investment. IDA reinforces Ireland's positive message in boardrooms across the world.

Many aspects of competitiveness have improved over the last number of years and international surveys consistently place Ireland in the top half dozen locations for FDI and pro-business policies. For example, in the IMD World Competitiveness Yearbook 2014, Ireland's ranking has improved from 24th position in 2011 to 15th currently. In December 2013, Forbes named Ireland the best place in the world to do business. The IBM global location trends report places Ireland number one in terms of quality and value of foreign direct investment.

Sectors such as technology, pharma, medical devices and Internet investments have performed extremely strongly and will continue to be the core focus for IDA. Manufacturing and global business services have also performed strongly and Ireland is well positioned to benefit further from investment in these areas. We are, of course, looking at opportunities in other sectors and also where sectors converge - for example between medical devices and pharma, medical devices and technology and so on.

Our challenge now is to maintain those companies that we have attracted and to attract a new cohort of companies to Ireland.

Ireland's corporation tax offering was enhanced during 2014 with changes introduced as part of budget 2015. These changes position the country to sustain and win inward investment in the years ahead, and further strengthen what Ireland can offer overseas investors. Budget 2015 reaffirmed the commitment to the 12.5% corporation tax rate, while also dealing with the issue of our corporate tax residency rules. The changes to the Irish corporate tax residency rules provided that all Irish registered companies will also be Irish tax resident with effect from 1 January 2015 for new companies and from 1 January 2021 for existing companies. This change confirms Ireland's international reputation as a country with a stable, transparent and fair taxation regime by bringing clarity to how Ireland's tax rules interact with tax regimes that are present elsewhere.

A roadmap for Ireland's tax competitiveness was published which aims to position Ireland towards maintaining the most competitive taxation offering that conforms with good practice. In conjunction with the non-tax measures set out in the Government's recent policy statement on foreign direct investment in Ireland, this roadmap will provide the foundations for Ireland to maintain and expand its position as a thriving hub for FDI. IDA welcomes the new measures including a new best-in-class knowledge development box, a broadening of the research and development tax credit and an improved special assignee relief programme.

The Department of Finance public consultation process was launched in mid-January 2015 to gather views on how the proposed knowledge development box should operate. This consultation process should ensure maximum constructive input from the FDI sector.

On the 2013 accounts specifically, IDA Ireland's annual report and accounts for 2013 were signed off by the Comptroller and Auditor General on 24 June 2014. The Comptroller and Auditor General has already outlined that the total Oireachtas funding available to IDA Ireland in 2013 was €126 million.

IDA Ireland had an employment control framework number of 272 staff in 2013 and in 2014, and remained within this ceiling throughout both years. IDA also commenced recruitment in 2014 of a further 35 team members under the Action Plan for Jobs initiative, called Winning Abroad.

During 2013, IDA managed the integration of functions from Forfás and the integration of Shannon Development FDI portfolio.

Performance in 2013 and 2014 proved to be very strong overall, especially in the context of continued global uncertainty and reflects a concerted effort across the organisation focused on business generation, delivery and client service. The employment results for 2013 and 2014 clearly highlight the keen focus that must be maintained on national competitiveness and the transformation process within client companies in the Irish economy in order to maintain and grow jobs in Ireland. The immediate pipeline is encouraging, in so far as one can see ahead, across a range of sectors and business models, but we cannot, obviously, take this for granted.

Finally, I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the global IDA team for their dedication and commitment to attracting real investment and jobs to Ireland. Without them, the positive results and impact I have just discussed would not be possible. I would also like to thank the wider public and private sector support that IDA receives in support of its mandate on an ongoing basis.

I thank Mr. Shanahan. May we publish that statement?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Yes.

I have been asked by the broadcasting unit to request members and witnesses to take their mobile phones away from the microphones because they are apparently interfering with the transmission of the meeting and the sound quality.

I ask Ms Sinnamon for her opening statement.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

I thank the committee for the opportunity to present this morning. As the members of the committee have my opening statement, I will just make a few brief comments.

Enterprise Ireland helps companies throughout Ireland to start and scale, innovate and remain competitive on international markets, now and in the future. The manufacturing and internationally traded services companies that Enterprise Ireland works with are a vital source of employment in every county in Ireland and are spread across a wide range of sectors. Enterprise Ireland-supported companies now directly provide employment for 180,072 people, comprising 156,202 full-time and 23,870 part-time workers, and in total 300,000 plus people, directly and indirectly.

EI-supported companies created 18,033 new jobs in 2013. This resulted in a net increase of 5,442 in the number of people employed. Total exports exceeded previous records to reach €17.1 billion in 2013. The 2014 survey is being undertaken at present and is expected to show exports exceeding €18 billion in 2014.

In January 2015 we reported that Enterprise Ireland client companies created 19,705 new jobs in 2014. As a result they created 8,476 net new jobs - the highest net gain in the history of the agency.

This employment growth demonstrates the direct impact that increasing exports has had on jobs in Ireland. This employment growth demonstrates the direct impact that increasing exports has had on jobs in Ireland.

Enterprise Ireland's accounts for 2013 were signed off by the Comptroller and Auditor General on 27 June 2014. We support companies both directly through the provision of financial supports and services to our client support network and indirectly by helping to build the wider enterprise infrastructure, for example through our work on technology centres.

The past two years have seen record employment gains for Irish companies and the highest level of exports ever achieved. All our key indicators are suggesting that employment and export growth is set to continue and there is a strong pipeline of start-up and expansion projects coming through. Enterprise Ireland has the most ambitious targets for any three year period in the history of the agency, in terms of jobs, exports and start-ups.

The active support of the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation is vital to our ability to execute our strategy with Irish companies. EI works closely with a range of other Departments, such as the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, to support the growth of Ireland's enterprise sectors, particularly in the context of the Action Plan for Jobs. Similarly, the close collaboration of the agencies, including IDA Ireland, is critical to supporting enterprise in Ireland.

Our key focus areas for the coming term will be as follows - driving entrepreneurship and start-ups; scaling Irish enterprise across all sectors and stages of growth; developing Ireland's market-driven research and development capabilities; and accelerating regional enterprise development.

I thank Ms Sinnamon. May we publish the statement?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Yes.

I call Deputy Shane Ross.

I welcome both of the chief executives. It is their first time here and it is good to see them. I am not sure why they were asked in together, to be honest. That is one of the mysteries of the way the Civil Service works.

I will start with the chief executive of Enterprise Ireland. The story, which both people tell, is always a very good story about jobs created. Can Ms Sinnamon tell me what the number of jobs lost in client companies was for last year and the year before?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Is the Deputy asking about 2013 or 2014?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

The 2013 gross gains were 12,532 full-time and gross losses were 8,912 which gave a net full-time employment of 3,620.

Is that 2013?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Yes. In 2014, the losses were 7,659 and the gains were 14,873 which gave a net position of 7,214 and that is full-time.

That figure, to me, is quite alarming. I know it is always presented as net gains. Can Ms Sinnamon explain why so many jobs were lost in both years and in the previous years?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

There is always a churn. In fact, the losses for that year were the lowest losses we have seen for any period since 2000 so it has been declining. The losses were spread across all of the sectors. There was not any one particular sector that accounted for it. There was an ongoing churn of companies that are reducing employment and companies going in and out of business. Most of them are in smaller sized companies with small losses across a large number of companies.

Much of the work that we have done in order to stem that decrease in jobs over the period has been to work on lean manufacturing with the companies to try to improve their competitiveness to help them to grow their sales. We also work with them to grow their sales in export markets because there is going to be growth through growth in sales and competitiveness that they continue. We are not just focusing on the new jobs. We have a major focus in terms of working on the ongoing competitiveness of the existing base of companies to try to reduce that which is coming through in terms of a reduction in job losses. It is still a figure which is too high and that is why we are continuing to try to drive the competitiveness agenda.

That sort of figure increases EI's cost per job enormously.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Yes.

Are the job losses due to liquidations or redundancies? What is the main reason for this massive loss of jobs?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

It is largely due to small reductions across a large number of companies. We have about 6,000 companies in the portfolio. That means there is a large number of companies that are adding jobs on an annual basis and there is a large number that are decreasing jobs. There is a small number of liquidations. It is largely through one, two or five job reductions in companies.

What sector are the losses in?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

They are across all of the sectors - construction, food and across software and services. It has been quite evenly spread.

Is the cost per job going up still?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Yes.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

The way the cost per job is computed takes into account, on an annual basis, all of the inflows into Enterprise Ireland from shares that are disposed of and also grants that are repaid.

In the early 2000's there was a number of significant share disposals which brought in the net amount that was going out of the agency on an annual basis. Therefore, those have washed through the system reflecting in higher figures in more recent years.

Another thing which has driven the cost per job up in recent times is a restructure of a number of sectors, particularly the food sector. There was a beef and sheapmeat fund and a dairy investment fund. Those funds were really about restructuring those sectors. Between now and 2020 we will see substantial increases in those sectors. What we have been doing is putting in place significant capital investment programmes both to restructure the industries and also to build new capacity to handle the dairy sector, in particular, post-quotas coming off next month.

We have seen some significant capital investments which brings up the cost per job. We have also seen, in the early 2000s, net inflows from investments disposed of which brought down the cost per job. It is not really like for like but that is the way the figure is computed. Also, in the 2008-2010 period there was a significant recession and we spent a lot of funding helping companies to sustain jobs through the enterprise stabilisation fund and reoriented them into new overseas markets.

Did Enterprise Ireland pump an awful lot of money into companies into which it had already pumped money beforehand in order to rescue them?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

All of the enterprise stabilisation fund went into the existing portfolio of companies.

Was that unexpected?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

That was totally unexpected.

Enterprise Ireland bailed them out.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

It was an emergency fund which was put in place to keep those companies in place. It succeeded in doing so but it has impacted on the cost per job. It was not money that we expected to invest at the time when those companies originated. It was additional to what was proposed.

Enterprise Ireland bailed out companies it had already invested in otherwise they would have gone under.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

We were sustaining companies that were really under pressure.

How many of them would have gone under?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Many of those companies would have gone under without the funding.

Are they all surviving now?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Not all of them survived. We have done a lot of analysis looking at that portfolio of companies and their state of health. The funding had a very positive effect across the portfolio. Some of them did not survive but the bulk of them did and prospered.

What percentage of them went under?

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

It is in the order of 20% that would have gone under. We can give the Deputy some further detail on the matter. There was a Comptroller and Auditor General review of the programme two years ago. We can provide the Deputy with some data on that but it was in the order of about 20%. It was a significant success in terms of those companies surviving and some of them have come back with extra jobs, etc. Overall, it was a broad success. It was about sustaining the jobs through the crisis of 2008 to 2010.

Enterprise Ireland seems to give the cost per job, in the annual report, in six-year cycles. Is it six or seven-year cycles?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Six.

Why is it done in six-year cycles? The information does not give us a clear view of how EI did in 2013, for example. I know that the cost per job is at a record high now according to the annual report.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

The calculation of the cost per job is a process that was done previously within Forfás. It is done in the same way across all the agencies to ensure consistency in approach. It is at the highest level in 2007-13 for those reasons, taking into account the stabilisation period, the capital investment programmes to restructure the food sector and the lack of funding.

What was the cost per job in 2013 for one year?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

It was €12,962.

That was over a six-year period. What was it in 2013 alone?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

We do not have that figure here.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

We do not calculate it in that way. It is not we who calculate it, it is the strategic policy division of our parent Department, formerly Forfás.

That is gobbledygook to me. I do not mean to be rude.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

We do not calculate that annual figure. We have a seven-year trading figure.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

The agreed figure with the policy department is that this is the metric we actually cost. That is what is in our annual report. We can get Deputy Ross different figures. There is no difficulty in that.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Every investment project that goes to our board has a cost per job on a company by company basis.

What I am saying is that we have a figure of €12,962 over a six-year basis, which is a record high. It is obvious to me, looking at that, that the cost per job in 2013 must have been higher than that.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

The cost per job in 2013-----

It must have been higher than that. It has to be, to have put it up.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

It is the impact of the extra year but also the last year being taken off. It is actually the balance. The Deputy is quite right, it is the new year being added on and the old year being dropped off.

It is camouflaging-----

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

We can get some additional-----

It is camouflaging the real figures by burying it in the six-year situation. If we get the 2013 figure, it will be much higher than €12,962, will it not?

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

It will be somewhat higher. We can happily-----

Ms Julie Sinnamon

We computed for every single investment and every investment is made on the basis of benefit-cost for that specific case. We can submit that to the committee separately.

Perhaps it should also go in the annual report for the year before.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

The question is what the current cost per job is trying to capture. It is trying to capture the long-term impact of the jobs and the investment. That is why that figure is as it is. It is not an issue in terms of looking at it and seeing what it tells us on an annual basis. Of course it will fluctuate more on an annual basis.

Okay, but it will be well over €13,000 for 2013.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

I would expect it to be over €13,000

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

I would need to look at the numbers, but I would expect it to be.

It would be clearer if it was put that way, rather than burying it in six-year figures.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

I am happy to do the analysis.

There are 55 redundancies. Why is that?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

EI is in the process of concluding that voluntary leaving programme. We had the capacity to let up to 55 people go under it. We tried to protect skills across the organisation, so that we would not lose skills completely out of one area, which restricted the package to 55 people. To date, 47 people have been offered the package and they have accepted it, so 47 people will be going under it. As part of that, there was a resourcing plan approved by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to allow us to bring in new skills, which are critical for the new sectors of the future, and to re-skill the organisation.

Was the organisation overstaffed?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

We believe we can deliver on our objectives by bringing in new skills and by downsizing through these exits.

The organisation was overstaffed.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

I would not say we were overstaffed, but we needed new staffing with the right skill-set.

EI was still able to let 55 people go.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

We believe we can deliver on what we need to do with the net reduction in staff.

Could Ms Sinnamon take me through the investment in TVC Holdings?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Okay.

From memory, it says in the annual report that €39 million was invested and there was a loss of €18.664 million in 2013. In 2012 the figure was €25 million, with a loss of €9.9 million. Is that right? Some of that is obviously TVC Holdings, not all of it, maybe, but some of it. It was not clear from the 2013-2012 report what that was specifically, but those are pretty heavy losses.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

I will just put into context why we are in venture capital at all, which is important. In the early 1990s, Forbairt, which subsequently became Enterprise Ireland, started investing in venture capital. The purpose of investments in venture capital was to provide an ecosystem and a funding mechanism to support young, innovative companies. There was no functioning venture capital sector in Ireland at that stage. We have gone through a number of phases of investment in venture capital. Over the 1999-2013 period, we have disposed of those investments. If one takes the net position for the proceeds from our venture capital investment, we have got €93.7 million back into Enterprise Ireland. We have invested €55.1 million in those investments, which gives a profit overall on the total portfolio of venture capital based on disposals to date of €38.55 million.

What is that in terms of return on capital? It is easy to give a big figure.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

It is pretty high because it cost us €55 million and we made a profit of €38.55 million on that €55.1 million. I will turn to Trinity specifically as Deputy Ross asked the question. We invested in two funds for Trinity Venture Capital. We invested a total of €19.8 million. We agreed to invest €22.8 million and it was not all drawn down. Some €19.6 million was invested in Trinity. Over a period, we also got approximately €6.5 million back from Trinity and made a profit of €2.5 million on those initial deals.

When was that? When was the initial investment, 2000?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

We made the initial investment in 1997 and we got that back between then and 2007, prior to the company deciding it was going to go public. In 2007, Trinity approached us and indicated it wanted to float the company. We had to decide whether to remain with the company and float or, alternatively, find a way to carve out the EI bit of each of the investments it was involved in. A view was taken. We have a seed and venture capital committee that would be involved in making such a decision, along with our board. The decision was taken by the seed and venture capital committee, and subsequently endorsed and approved by the board, that it was a better option for the organisation to remain as an investor in the fund and be part of the public company. That was driven by the view that there would be more funding available for our client base in that circumstance and that we would take a bigger hit if we took our funding out on a bit-by-bit basis for each of those investments. The decision was taken to remain part of the public company. That takes us up to 2007. At that stage, we took a hit on our shares, in that there was a reduction in the value of our investment relative to the value of our shareholding in the public company.

Could Ms Sinnamon explain that?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

I shall explain that. I will give a specific figure on it. When we invested in the public company, our funds in the company were €16 million and the investment was revalued to €10.3 million. The write-down at the time of 2007 was €5.7 million. Subsequently, Trinity went public and the shares collapsed. In 2012, the shares were at the highest price they had been in four years and a decision was taken within EI. Trinity had made a couple of subsequent investments, one in UTV and one in Dalata Hotels, which were not core to what we were involved in and we decided because of the collapse in the share price and that it was now in the strongest position it had been in for four years to divest of the shares. Therefore, a further hit of €4.2 million was taken on those shares.

We had also made a profit of €2.5 million previously so there was a loss of €7.4 million on that Trinity deal. Despite that, overall there is a return of €38 million on the venture capital fund to date but that was a significant loss.

It was a very big investment for Enterprise Ireland.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

It would not be a very big investment relative to the types of investment we made in venture capital. It would be common for us to make investments in venture funds of €20 million. That is not an unusual amount. It was really invested as two venture funds which then went public so it is not core to the type of investment we would do in normal companies in Ireland.

The biggest investment that TVC holdings had was UTV. Was it not?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

I do not have a breakdown-----

It was, I can assure you. What was Enterprise Ireland doing investing so heavily in a company which was basically investing in UTV? Much of its core value was cash, as the witness is aware. Enterprise Ireland had a pile of money sitting there for a long time while it was investing in UTV as its biggest investment. It seems totally inappropriate.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

When Enterprise Ireland invests in venture capital funds, including many of the ones we currently invest in, we make it part of the agreement that they have to double our investment within the sectors or whatever activities are relevant to Enterprise Ireland. For example, some of the current venture funds in which Enterprise Ireland has invested invest in Ireland and outside Ireland. If we put in €10 million, we say that one has to invest at least €20 million in the Irish market. With Trinity and with funds that are investing within our core area and outside our core area, we would have had restrictions stating that one has to double its investment within the sectors in which Enterprise Ireland is interested. In fact, Trinity's original investments were very much within the core space in which Enterprise Ireland is involved in manufacturing and international trades, largely in the software and services side. Subsequent to the flotation, its investments in UTV and Dalata were outside our area. That was one of the key factors, coupled with the collapse in value of the company, that the view taken by the board at that stage in 2012 was to dispose of that shareholding.

I know the biggest investment deal was in UTV, certainly from 2008. Enterprise Ireland was sitting on this company and basically investing taxpayers' money in UTV.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Money is drawn down based on making investments and Enterprise Ireland insisted that its investment was doubled within the core areas in which it which it is investing. A fund puts its money into all of the projects but certainly the core investments were made in line with the investments into-----

The fortunes of taxpayers' money depended on the performance of UTV, because that was the biggest investment it had. It must have been, given the way the share prices were going to move, a very unsuitable investment for Enterprise Ireland to have. It probably diverted from its original purpose. Should Enterprise Ireland not have sold those shares a lot earlier once it was not fulfilling its mandate? It was there in cash and it was there in UTV and it had profits on things likes Dalata and a few other things like that. Basically, Enterprise Ireland was sitting there and it had millions of euro invested in a vehicle which was basically in cash in UTV. That is what it was and it took five years to get out of it.

Please check mobile phones.

It is not me.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

There were considerable discussions with the management to see whether there were investments that were focused on Enterprise Ireland's space, manufacturing international services. We did not have control over whether they would float or not; we were an investor and we could not control that. At the time we also had a view that this may be one way in which we were able to get larger amounts of money into our scaling companies. That was our logic at the time in terms of trying to see whether this was an opportunity. In the event, as the Deputy rightly points out, it did invest in companies but not in our space. We had several discussions in which we tried to encourage them to invest in our areas in the sectors in which we are particularly interested. That did not bear fruit and at that point we decided we had to exit. Particularly in the context of a very major financial crisis we felt we needed to have those discussions and pursue that direction.

It took over five years.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

Yes, it took a considerable amount of time.

It seems to be utterly inappropriate to invest in a company, depending on one's political view, which, in effect, operates outside the country. That seems wrong. Even if it happened by accident, presumably Enterprise Ireland should have got out much earlier.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

The issue for us was whether it was actually doubling our money and if we could get it to do that from the point of view of investing in our kind of companies as distinct from the broader amount of money which obviously comes from other investors. Its mandate allowed it to invest in other companies in other countries.

And it did not respond to Enterprise Ireland's overtures?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

If I may make two points, first, all of the venture capital funds in which Enterprise Ireland is involved have abilities to invest outside the State as well as within the State. We restrict the amount they have to invest to make sure it at least doubles the investment of the taxpayers' funding. That is not unusual. After the flotation of Trinity we did not put any funding in post that flotation. The share price plummeted and when we exited it was at the highest price the share price had been for the four years. There had been a massive drop, it recovered and Enterprise Ireland exited.

Share prices shot up after Enterprise Ireland sold as well.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

We know that subsequently.

Why did Enterprise Ireland sell at that time? Did it get advice?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

We took advice at the time and there was much discussion both within our investment portfolio committee which would be determining for any of our portfolio, when to sell, when not to sell, and also our board endorsed the decision that we should sell. It was obviously a major decision.

A bad decision.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

With hindsight-----

A bad decision to go in and a bad decision to go out.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

I am not sure. In regard to the decision to invest in Trinity on day one, Enterprise Ireland invested in a lot of companies at that time and good investment decisions were made. With hindsight, looking at venture capital funds in public markets there has not been great success. We would certainly be looking very closely in such a situation again.

Did Enterprise Ireland get outside, independent advice to sell?

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

Yes.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

Merrion Capital.

Okay. At what price did Enterprise Ireland sell? What price were the shares at the time?

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

Eighty-nine.

So they went up. Does Mr. Donnellan know what the discount was to net asset?

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

I can confirm that but I think it was around 30%.

That is a massive discount.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

That was the advice we got at the time. I have to confirm that figure for the Deputy.

To sell at a 30% discount is absolutely enormous.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

On net book value, that was the best price in four years. The professional advice we got was that was the best deal we could have got. In fact, the price had gone up a bit before we sold, after the advice we got. It was the best price in four years. If we had held on for another seven months we would have got a further uplift. However, at the time that was not anticipated. The main reason for that uplift was from the Dalata sale or IPO. In the professional advice we got at the time certainly that was not anticipated.

It is an extraordinary wide discount at which to sell.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

Again, I need to check precise figures------

A forced sale at a big discount such as that is-----

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

I need to check the precise figure. It was based on the professional advice we got at the time.

Afterwards, everything happened soon after Enterprise Ireland sold, I think I am right in saying.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

Six to seven months, if I understand rightly.

There was a significant capital distribution to shareholders. There was a special dividend. If Enterprise Ireland had held on for all of those - I am not blaming Enterprise Ireland, by the way, but this is the fact - it would have done a great deal better.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

As I understand it, we gained from the cash distribution. In terms of the equivalent value, the market had taken that into account. As for the uplift on the hotel IPO which had not been anticipated at that time we sold, obviously, we would have gained significantly from that. I understand, we would have gained significantly.

I am conscious of the time.

I am sorry, I want to come to IDA Ireland. I will only be a second. Could I ask a couple of questions of IDA Ireland? Would the Chairman prefer I come back in?

Yes. Deputy Ross has had 30 minutes.

I am sorry. That is fine.

I will allow Deputy Ross back in.

I welcome the representatives. I will give Ms Sinnamon a break and turn to Mr. Shanahan.

I want to ask Mr. Shanahan about our competitiveness and issues that derive from this building, what the Legislature is doing, how it affects our competitiveness and how he does his job, and our attractiveness or lack thereof when it comes to potential investors in the country.

It is a while ago now, but it was announced in the budget that the double Irish taxation scheme was to be ended, ultimately, at the end of 2020 and, for new entrants, this year. As Mr. Shanahan will be aware, it would require all companies registered here to be tax resident also. I will not go into the rights and wrongs of ending the double Irish. I presume that there were opinions given within IDA Ireland. I have a strong opinion on the ending of the double Irish. I do not agree with it, and I never have. It worries me when law makers in the United States are now talking about further legislation that needs to be enacted, such as the anti-inversion in Congress which would allow addresses to be changed if there was a takeover to allow a company to avail of a low-tax regime. Everybody thinks this is great, we are civically minded globally and it is a wonderful step forward, etc. I am not so sure this economy is in a place to be so generous with regard to giving up what Mr. John Sculley, former CEO of Apple, referred to as our "edge" when it comes to attracting businesses. I agree with him.

What I am asking Mr. Shanahan is how, from this point on, he will gauge what effect the ending of the double Irish will have on companies that potentially would be investors in this country. How will he find out how disastrous or otherwise this could be? What kind of a system of communication does he have in place with these companies and potential investors to ascertain the effect that something like this could have on the economy because, potentially, it could be quite damaging? I will ask Mr. Shanahan that first and maybe get into other competitiveness issues that arise.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I thank Deputy Deasy for those questions. To start with, I will comment on our overall competitiveness and tax, and, if there are other questions, on competitiveness.

Ireland's competitiveness has improved dramatically in the past number of years. It declined dramatically in the 2000s and it was more challenging to attract foreign direct investment as a result. Costs were too high. Resources were being supplied to areas which were unsustainable. Obviously, we know what the result of that was. Our competitiveness has now improved. I would say that, at all costs, we need to protect our competitiveness.

Our competitiveness is not just around taxation. There is probably, in the international debate and sometimes in the Irish debate, an undue emphasis on taxation in that competitiveness is about everything. It is about the costs, infrastructure, the availability of talent, the attractiveness of the locations to which we are trying to bring companies, etc. All of the international rankings, as I said in my opening statement, show that Ireland's competitiveness is improving. The difficulty with international rankings is that they typically lag and they are telling one something after the fact, and we need to be mindful and ensure that they continue to increase and that we stay there.

In relation to the changes that were made in the 2015 budget regarding tax, first, the changes to the residency rules that Deputy Deasy is referring to were not made in isolation. They were made in a context where other parts of our tax code were improved, particularly - I mentioned some of them in my opening statement in relation to the amortisation of intellectual property - in relation to SARP and, indeed, to personal taxation rates. Obviously, the budget also announced that the Government intended to introduce a knowledge development box. I would put all of those in the plus category of making Ireland more attractive to foreign direct investment.

In relation to the change to residency rules, I believe that over the long period that will also be a positive because it was something that was being used to point to Ireland, and causing damage to our international reputation. The change was well handled. We had engagement with our clients prior to the changes in the run up to the budget - obviously, nobody knows what the changes will be until budget day but we obviously plan for all eventualities. Once the budget was announced, we had engagement with our clients about it. I wrote to every client of IDA Ireland on the day the budget was announced. We followed that up with engagements through all of our executives on the ground in market, at corporate and in Ireland, and we also had a number of investment marketing missions directly after the budgetary process in order to speak to our clients directly in market.

There are a number of ways one gauges what the impact will be over time. First, one speaks to the clients and asks them what their response is, and for the most part that response has been positive. It is not universally positive, as Deputy Deasy would expect, but for the most part it has been positive.

It impacts on different IDA Ireland client companies in different ways. There is a small number who may have availed of structures. They now have to find an alternative to that structure. For those that are operating already, they have over six years in which to do that from the point it was announced. There are those who may have believed that the existence of such structures was doing damage to Ireland's reputation and was causing them a difficulty in terms of their investment in Ireland, and would have very much welcomed the changes. There are those for whom this has no bearing at all, which would be a large part of the portfolio, including emerging companies who are still in ramp-up stage and for whom tax does not feature. There is a whole-----

That is fair enough. I accept where Mr. Shanahan is coming from - that competitiveness has improved and it took a dip - and I take what he is saying with regard to these companies. My opinion is that in talking about tax avoidance, which, effectively, is what this scheme was, I am not bothered too much about what others think of our international reputation when it comes to attracting companies to our shores because other countries do other things to attract companies into their jurisdictions and have been doing so since the year dot. When one asks a CEO of a company about a tax avoidance scheme, which it has availed of and which brought it to this country in the first place in many respects, he or she may not verbalise the impact of this entirely.

Moreover, my personal experience has been that while it is something of which such people will avail and use to the full, they will not talk to a journalist and agree it absolutely was why they came here and why they are staying here. The ESRI carried out a pretty good study on this issue and the analysis it came up with, having surveyed the companies, was that had Ireland a European Union average rate of 22.5%, and the number of multinationals between the years 2005 and 2013 would have been 60, not 130. The ESRI considered four measures of Ireland's corporation taxation, namely, the policy rate, the mean effective average tax rate, EATR, the total tax rate and the cross-border EATR. Ultimately, the ESRI's analysis was that even were one to bring the rate down to 15% as opposed to 12.5%, some 20% of those companies that had been attracted here previously under the old regime would not have come. I do not state that we have a problem and am not getting into the rights and wrongs of it. I do not really care if commentators say it is wonderful, Ireland is very fair, it is good and so on. The potential impact here worries me because companies will not verbalise this, although they may do so behind closed doors to a certain extent. I believe we have a problem and if we identify a problem in the coming months with regard to potential investors, we need to do something about it.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I will respond on a couple of things. First, I had intended to say there are a number of ways. One way is to ask them. Second, one looks at what they do next and where they put their next investments. Moreover, one looks at where potential investors are putting their investments. As one of the more obvious items of evidence that this has not had a detrimental impact, I would point to the pipeline of investments since the budget was announced. I also note that even in advance of the budgetary announcement, there was a high degree of expectation among the international investment community that Ireland would do something in this area and still, we see very large investments coming through the pipeline.

I absolutely agree with the Deputy and equally and obviously, my only interest is in how we remain competitive. The statistics the Deputy used with regard to how tax has been an attractive and compelling reason for people to come to Ireland are absolutely correct. It also was right for the time. However, if our competitive advantage increasingly is being used against us and is causing other companies not to invest here, this may have been an issue. It is also more of a question of timing, in that a number of international processes are under way of which the committee would be aware, such as the base erosion and profit shifting, BEPS, project through the OECD or initiatives through the European Union and the United States. One point that is clear from all those processes is the thrust of them is that substance and tax liability will be ever more closely aligned. Ireland has set out a clear roadmap and has stated what it is going to do over the years ahead. This has given investors a lot of confidence and clarity, which is not evident in all countries. It has removed one of the structures that may be causing us a difficulty from a reputational perspective. I am not just talking about causing Ireland reputational difficulty but about causing difficulty to potential investors. The Minister reiterated on the day of the budget that our 12.5% rate was not up for discussion and one should remember that the more that these two things, substance and tax liability, become aligned, the more attractive the 12.5% rate becomes.

I take Mr. Shanahan's point about the pipeline and the volume within it increasing. However, to a certain extent this is conjecture and theory with regard to the impact this will have on the existing multinationals between now and 2020. We do not know yet.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

It is all a judgment and all we can do is what we do currently. We are engaged with companies every day of the week trying to work out what will differentiate Ireland. Increasingly, given the global changes I have outlined, tax will continue to be part of our competitive offering and we should make it as competitive as we can. For instance, in the context of introducing a knowledge development box, the Minister used the phrase that it will be best in class and aligned with international best practice. We should go to the very extremes in all of what we do to attract investment. However, we also need to do the other things that would give us even greater differentiation and more competitiveness in respect of the availability of talent - which is where all the actual differentiation will come in future - having the available infrastructure, having the property solutions and having attractive places in which to live and work. They are equally important and for a lot of the cohort of companies we are attracting, they want to know that they actually can do things in Ireland. They want to know that they can set up and they want to scale up quickly before they ever get to the point where they are talking about paying taxes.

That is fair enough. Mr. Shanahan has answered the question. IDA Ireland is obviously thinking about this in terms of communication with the companies involved.

On a similar theme, I have a concern about Ireland's economic position in respect of what happens within Leinster House and what is passed that potentially could affect our competitiveness. Within the next couple of months, collective bargaining legislation will be introduced in this House. It is probably good that none of my Labour Party colleagues are present.

They probably will hear about it.

It would not be the first time. I am unsure how wise it is to pass legislation that potentially will have an impact on, for example, a company from the United States. If such a company did not recognise a union - I acknowledge that mandatory union recognition is not being proposed - it certainly would allow a union to drag a company to the Labour Court. This is a position that has not existed since the Industrial Relations Act was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court back in 2007. The general feeling from people who deal with labour law is this probably is not necessary and that the existing laws are pretty robust when it comes to employer-employee relations and in negotiations in the matrix that is there already. Personally, I do not believe this is the right time for such legislation. When it comes to something like this, obviously the American Chamber of Commerce Ireland has been involved in negotiations and has an opinion. It believes - it is not alone in this belief - that in respect of dealing with the Government on this, the process has been good. Did IDA Ireland give an opinion on the timing of this legislation? Does it have an opinion with regard to legislation like this and on this legislation specifically, as well as on its timing? As we have just ended the double Irish, we do not really know what will happen. The last thing we should be doing is passing more legislation that could put a doubt in the mind of any investor from the United States about coming to Ireland. It is not rocket science. I believe the timing is bad and that we should hold off until this economy recovers to the point where consideration can be given to such legislation.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I thank the Deputy. At a high level, I should state, first, that anything the Houses do in respect of legislation should always have an eye to competitiveness. As people who market Ireland as a location for investment on a daily basis, the more positive things we have in our tool bag and the fewer negative things, the better. It is important to note that in respect of labour market flexibility, Ireland scores really highly on all international barometers. It is important to note - so that this is not taken out of context - that we really do well in this regard and I believe it is a tick in the favourable column for companies. In respect of the specific proposed legislation mentioned by the Deputy, my understanding of it is that it tries to strike a balance between protecting the competitiveness of Ireland as a location for multinationals and indigenous companies and protecting the rights of employees to engage in collective bargaining.

There has been significant engagement with both employers and employee representative groups during the course of developing the proposed legislation. The American Chamber of Commerce, AmCham, IBEC and the trade unions have all engaged with the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and bilaterally. The legislation continues the tradition of the voluntarist nature of collective bargaining while seeking to protect employees. It tries to seek this balance and if it succeeds, well and good. We have yet to see the drafts.

It comes back to finding out what the potential impact of this is. We need to keep an eye on it. If it is passed this year, we must be cognisant of the effect it might have on any multinational that might consider Ireland. This is just one of many issues.

It is more of a policy issue.

Yes, but the IDA will deal with companies that might potentially invest in Ireland. My concern is that we are lining up reasons for them not to come here, and doing so at the wrong time. It is not the IDA's fault but is done because of political agendas. I met groups that are involved in these negotiations and they are very clear that in their opinion it is not needed. Although the process has been good and they have been pleased with the Department and other people involved, everybody to whom I speak asks what we are doing. While the IDA and Enterprise Ireland are doing an amazing job, the legislation we pass must correlate what their work is about. There is a danger that we are putting impediments to investors where we should not be.

Yesterday, the IDA with Enterprise Ireland, announced a regional plan. In the past few weeks I have met Mr. Shanahan, the IDA chairman Mr. Frank Ryan and the new regional manager for the south east Anne-Marie Tierney-Le Roux. Mr. Ryan told me about a problem he immediately identified when he became chairman. One of the first things he asked for was data on the companies that had been offered regional aid incentives. He wanted to know which companies turned them down to move to larger urban areas as opposed to the regions. The list was extensive. Mr. Barry O'Leary also noted this during his tenure as chief executive of the IDA. He identified that no matter how much money we were throwing at these companies, it was not working and we needed to deal with it differently. We all know it. Since Mr. Shanahan has come to the job, I feel people are being listened to for the first time. The fact that there is a regional director for the south east is very significant for us. For 20 years, the south east, which has seen a 9% decline in jobs, was left without a regional director. Our area was dealt with from Cork, and it did not work. I appreciate the consideration Mr. Shanahan has given with this key appointment and I hope it will be worthwhile.

Last night, I spoke to the Minister, Deputy Bruton, about yesterday's announcement by the IDA and Enterprise Ireland. While it is positive that Waterford has been earmarked for an advanced factory in 2017, it is too far away for us. The advanced factory that is being completed now is great and I am hopeful that we will get a company into it soon. Over recent weeks I have engaged with the IDA and the Waterford county manager about putting together a proposal for an advanced factory in Dungarvan. Mr. Shanahan has the proposal. Now that the advanced factory in the city has been completed, we need one in the west of the county to service the area. It would cost little money. The facility is there in the old recycling plant in Dungarvan. Could Mr. Shanahan deal with the specific proposal? How will he deal with the local authorities on such issues over the coming year? While I have seen broad policy statements on area action plans, there is a need for more engagement with the local authorities as to what assets they have that could be renovated or refitted. In some cases, they are very ready to engage with the IDA.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Yesterday evening, we received a proposal from the county manager regarding the building the Deputy mentioned. I will not discuss individual properties and what we may or may not do with them. We are happy to engage with all county councils on property, and we do so constantly. We also engage with other arms of the State that hold property portfolios and with the private sector.

I understand. Now that the proposal has been made, what will the IDA do with it? What is the process?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

We will examine the proposal, as we do on an ongoing basis. We receive input from all quarters including public representatives, county councils and the private sector regarding building sites and other property solutions. We will come back to the county manager regarding the proposal he has put forward. My colleagues are familiar with the building in question and we will re-examine it to ensure we are up to date before determining what, if anything, can be done and in what timeframe. We continue to market the building, as we do other public and private sector properties in the area. As the Deputy pointed out, Waterford was in the first round of locations picked for building advanced technology buildings. IDA commenced the programme last year for the first time in many years and it started in Waterford and Athlone. The Waterford building has just been constructed and commissioned. We have had much interest in both the Waterford and Athlone buildings and I hope we will see some activity in this regard soon.

We must go out and market these things. All this investment is hard-won. Although there is property available around the country, some of it is not of a standard or in a location that is suitable for the types of investments we are trying to win. We chose the locations for the nine advanced technology buildings announced yesterday on the basis of critical mass of population, existing enterprise base or cluster and the availability of a talent pool. In all locations there is a third-level institute, typically an institute of technology and in one case a university. They are in locations where they are marketable. This is because property is a key differentiator and having these turn-key solutions available is very important because it often makes the difference between winning and not winning investment.

Have standards changed over the years? I am being told that while previously a green field was all that was needed in some cases, they are now demanding that a property be ready for them to move into and it must be arranged before they come, particularly if it is outside the main centres of Cork and Dublin where they are less likely to build.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

While it varies by sector and company, I would agree that we are more involved in providing property solutions than ever, particularly given the constraint on the private sector stepping forward to develop property solutions.

We have to work much harder to find appropriate solutions for our clients. This may involve acting as a connector and putting them in contact with the right people or acting as a broker. We market both public and private sector properties.

In regard to the process of engagement on regional development plans, the Government announced yesterday that regional enterprise action plans would be in place in six of the eight regional locations by July and the other two would follow shortly thereafter. The proposal is that either an Enterprise Ireland or an IDA senior manager will lead the development and co-ordination of each of those plans at local level. The individuals for each region have been appointed and we will now consult with local authorities, other arms of the State that have a regional presence and local representatives in order to assess what can be done in each region.

There were two arms to what was announced yesterday. One arm is the €150 million made available over a five year period for property solutions for the IDA. That relates both to the advanced technology buildings, but also to strategic sites and business and technology parks. The other arm relates to €100 million in competitive funding, which will be operated by colleagues in Enterprise Ireland. This will allow a bottom-up approach, where regions can bring forward ideas and pitch for competitive funding.

My last question is a technical one and relates to that €150 million. Taking the building in Dungarvan as an example, once the IDA has examined the building and dealt with it, is it possible to use that budget for the purpose of renovation or refitting?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

It is potentially possible, in the context of using the €150 million over the five years. However, there is less potential to use the allocation for this year, because we have already begun plans in anticipation of this.

Unless the local authority comes back and works out a deal in the meantime.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

As I have said, we will discuss the options with all regions and local authorities regarding what offers they have on board.

We cannot push it too far. Thank you.

Do not announce it just yet.

I welcome Mr. Martin Shanahan and Ms Julie Sinnamon and congratulate Ms Sinnamon on her appointment. I also acknowledge the role played by Barry O'Leary and Frank Ryan.

Deputy Ross is not here at the moment, but I am always amazed at how subjective his views are on Enterprise Ireland, not alone here but in his articles in the business section of the Sunday Independent. I am often disappointed immensely with his articles. The cost of jobs is based on many variables, but I believe many jobs are based on the potential turnover of €18 billion of many Enterprise Ireland based companies. We can look at the success of the bottom up approach in this regard. Will Ms Sinnamon explain the role of the service level agreement in regard to Enterprise Ireland and connectivity with local and small enterprise companies?

The issue of cross-Border development was raised. Amazement was expressed at the reference to the shareholding in Northern Ireland based companies, but I am aware from my experience there has been significant development and collaboration with InterTradeIreland and both Northern and Southern Ireland based companies. In my experience, this is par for the course.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

I will deal specifically with the cross-Border issue and will then ask Tom Hayes, our regional director, to talk about the service level agreement with the LEOs.

Enterprise Ireland works very closely with both InterTradeIreland and Invest Northern Ireland and we offer all of the leadership programmes we run for companies here to Northern Ireland companies. We meet a number of times a year with Invest Northern Ireland to discuss how we can work together to help companies on both sides of the Border. On programmes such as Horizon 2020, for example, we liaise with them in order to help them maximise the draw down of those funds. In the past two weeks, we had our second trade mission under the Invest Northern Ireland, UK Trade and Investment, UKTI, and Enterprise Ireland banner in the Gulf at the Arab Health Exhibition & Congress. All sides worked together on this. This co-operation is valued by companies both in the Republic and in Northern Ireland. Interestingly, Invest Northern Ireland recently tendered for one of its own development programmes, which was won by DCU which previously would have run programmes for us that Invest Northern Ireland clients win also. There is strong collaboration between both sides, to the benefit of companies on both sides of the Border.

In regard to the 161,000 people directly employed in these companies, we need to clarify that it is not just about the cost of a job, but also the added value that comes from that. There is a significant spin-off to other companies. It is important we get a clear message on the cost of a job and that we balance that with the economic benefit in other spin-off companies. It is important to clarify that.

In the context of investment, people say, "No problem, no business." There is always a risk with investment. Looking at the scale of research and investment, of high tech companies and of high potential start-up companies here, these have been very much the cornerstone of our fantastic success. Ireland would be entirely lost without work of the IDA and Enterprise Ireland in achieving that. Now that Deputy Ross has returned, I would like to comment on his subjective view of Enterprise Ireland. I know from my experience in the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, that in the context of the achievements in the area of cross-Border development, high potential start-up companies and truth of the saying "No problem, no business", there is always a certain element of loss. However, when we look at the overall result, the jobs created in every community, the LEOs and service level agreement, I believe Enterprise Ireland has done an outstanding job.

I have visited some of the high potential start-up companies. There is always a risk involved, but it is important to see young entrepreneurs and young business people encouraged and to take the quantitative risk, not alone here but also in Northern Ireland. Rather than be subjective about cross-Border investment, we should be objective. It is important for the economy of the whole island. We should make this message clear and also clarify that the cost of a job should not be counted entirely in terms of the cost for Enterprise Ireland, but attached to the overall turnover. In the retail sense, the cost of a job is based at retail, rather than cost. If we accept that in the case of Enterprise Ireland, we are getting very good value per cost.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Certainly. Total employment in 2014 was 180,072 - the highest employment in Irish enterprise.

We should divide that cost into the potential €18 billion retail and work it out as a percentage of turnover as against the cost of input. I believe we would see a considerable difference.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Yes. One of the specific issues with Irish companies is there is a massive spend in the economy. Take, for example, some of the recent investment in the food sector. There might be less than 100 jobs in the company we are supporting, but potentially there are 1,000 jobs in the wider economy through jobs on farms and through the value added services that feed into these. There is a high level of value added across the economy every time we invest in a company. I will now ask Mr. Tom Hayes to talk about the service level agreement.

That is very important from the point of view of investment in start-up companies and the incubation facilities in universities and ITs. In every constituency in the country, there is potential for the small acorn to grow. It is important there is a clear level service agreement from incubation of a idea and for how it will work.

Mr. Tom Hayes

On the local enterprise offices, the Government decided to dissolve the county and city enterprise boards and replace them with local enterprise offices.

It was a trying year in terms of the transformation from CEBs to local enterprise offices. Legislation had to be introduced to dissolve the boards of the CEBs.

The SLA framework was established. A significant amount of work was involved in terms of branding because a brand had to be developed. Finances were required because they had to integrate into the local authorities, and the same was required for IT systems. There were issues in terms of logistics because people had to move, and five or six are still waiting to move because they are locked into longer-terms leases or are in community enterprise centres which are more appropriate locations.

There was a national launch and each individual LEO was launched. We placed a major emphasis on staff training and development because change management meant people were operating in a very different environment. The functional competencies of the staff were also critical in areas like social media training, marketing, financial analysis, business development, understanding new business models and business dynamics. We also had to establish protocols. We now have protocols between the LEOs and a number of other agencies because it is a first stop shop to where anyone hoping to start a business goes. There are protocols with bodies such as Revenue, the Department of Social Protection, Microfinance Ireland and, as was mentioned, the community enterprise centres which are a significant resource around the country in terms of a property solution for anybody who wants to start a business.

The service level agreement involves a three year framework and we will review it in the second quarter of this year.

It is important to note the competitiveness in manufacturing. I refer to dairy products and the food harvest 2020 strategy. An announcement was made this week. Will a major change occur in manufacturing jobs? A number of years ago things were very much driven by hi-tech companies.

Mr. Tom Hayes

Some ten or 15 years ago there might have been a view that manufacturing in Ireland would not be the area to be in because we were not competitive, but we are now very familiar with many of the companies which are now bringing back production to Ireland that they had undertaken in central and eastern Europe or the Far East. There are many small production units. Those are the kind of people which are coming through the LEO network.

A €100 million development fund for enterprise has been announced. Will that be meaningful in every community?

Mr. Tom Hayes

It is to be hoped it will be meaningful in every county and town in Ireland. We will be starting with the community enterprise centres. They have been around for some time and we have invested €46 million in them. There are 117 of them up and running and over 1,200 companies, employing over 6,000 people, are engaged with and operate out of them. This provides an opportunity, not to provide more of the same, but to provide something quite enhanced. Deputy Deasy referred to remodification and re-engineering. It is an opportunity for local communities which work together and come forward. The programme will be part of that.

A second leg of that involves LEOs. There will be a competitive call for each of the LEOs. We want the best in class and for people to come forward to us in a competitive scheme which will involve solutions which can help to create jobs locally.

The third element will be a consequence of the consultation which will take place and has been mentioned. The spotlight will now be put on six regions up to July, with a further two to follow. Out of that will emerge ideas, initiatives and areas that we will be in a position to support.

I refer to the trade missions and the overseas offices we have. There is collaboration with Enterprise Ireland and the IDA. I ask Mr. Sherry to explain the collaboration that exists between Enterprise Ireland and the IDA on trade missions and working with diplomatic teams abroad.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I will ask Mr. Sherry or Ms Sinnamon to comment. There is very close co-operation between the IDA and Enterprise Ireland on all manner of things. We work very closely together across the board wherever it makes sense in terms of enterprise development. There is a very close working relationship when it comes to trade and investment missions wherever our objectives are aligned. Enterprise Ireland is involved in ensuring that Irish exporters can export overseas.

We are trying to attract investment. The locations for both are not always exactly aligned, but where it makes sense we operate joint trade and investment missions. Where it makes sense we have the Ireland house concept. Where there are embassies and consulates Enterprise Ireland and the IDA are co-located. An innovation in recent times has been the development of the export trade council which brings together all of the players around the table, including the private sector, to discuss how that operates. There are local market plans which the ambassador, together with our representatives in Enterprise Ireland and the IDA, develop each year. Ms Sinnamon or Mr. Sherry may wish to comment.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

I will ask Mr. Sherry to discuss collaboration on trade missions.

Mr. Kevin Sherry

As Mr. Shanahan has outlined, we collaborate very closely with the IDA. We run joint trade missions with it overseas to several locations, in Asia or the US. In November we ran a trade mission jointly in Ireland where 80 multinational and 150 Irish companies, focused on Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway, were brought together with multinational and indigenous supply companies in Ireland to help them collaborate more closely. This was done with a view to embedding those multinational companies in Ireland and for the Irish companies to win more business from the spend available from multinational companies.

We are also, as Mr. Sherry outlined, co-located with them wherever possible internationally and work hand-in-glove with them in terms of the networks we can leverage, as we do with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and other agencies where relevant. Bord Bia is one such example. Part of that process involves having a joint senior management team between IDA and Enterprise Ireland in place which drives that activity. It goes without saying that on the research side in Ireland, the drive on technology centres and collaboration on research are important areas.

Some of the multinational companies coming into Ireland do so by acquisition. They acquire Irish companies which they see as having leading-edge technology. The numbers are increasing and we recently conducted a review on the sector. Over half of the companies we transfer to the IDA on a regular basis are high potential start-up companies, where multinational companies have come into Ireland by acquiring a technology company they regard as best in class, not just in Ireland but globally. An example is a company called Biancamed which developed technology for sleep apnea. An Australian company called ResMed saw the technology and acquired it. It is now a new name multinational company in Ireland which is managed by the IDA, but it was a spin-out company from UCD.

I have a final comment. I compliment the staff of Enterprise Ireland and the IDA on the extraordinary job they do and reports they have furnished today.

I welcome the representatives from Enterprise Ireland and the IDA. I go back to an initial comment by Deputy John Perry at the start. It is only a comment to Ms Julie Sinnamon. I would certainly not want the message to go out from this committee that I had any difficulty with an investment of €13,000 to create a job that would restore somebody's dignity and give them a sense of wellbeing while removing them from the live register at a minimum recurring saving of €10,000 to €12,000 a year. It is important to point out that a State investment of €13,000, which was the figure Ms Sinnamon suggested, to create a job is value for money, especially if it gives the person back dignity of which he or she has been stripped.

I refer Mr. Martin Shanahan to the issue of competitiveness. Mr. Shanahan, a YouTube sensation, is very welcome to the committee. He handled himself very impressively and defended the Government's decision not to be a part of the United Kingdom very well on the Internet recently. I ask Mr. Shanahan for his general opinion on the following. A suggestion has been bandied about lately that an increase in employers' PRSI to 15.75% on incomes above €100,000 would be a good idea. What does Mr. Shanahan think of that? What does he think of the suggestion that an increase in capital gains tax would be a good idea in terms of competitiveness and selling Ireland's message overseas?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Those are both matters of policy and ultimately for the Government to decide. However, it is a clear-cut answer from my perspective. Anything that adds to the cost of employment is likely to have a detrimental impact on our ability to attract foreign direct investment and, indeed, on the capacity of enterprise to flourish in the State. If one increases employers' PRSI, one is adding to the cost of employment here. It is a policy decision ultimately. The Government has decided to cut the cake a particular way in terms of our tax profile and other jurisidictions do it in a slightly different way. Ultimately, one has to make the books balance. We all understand that, but things that add to the cost of employment are not good in terms of our ability to attract inward investment.

In Mr. Shanahan's experience of dealing with companies overseas, is it a fair assessment to say it would it be a hard sell to attract investment to Ireland on the back of an increase of employers' PRSI?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

One single change will not make or break things; it is the cumulative effect that matters. I am not in a position to say exactly what impact an increase in employers' PRSI would have on decisions, but I can tell the committee that the more one increases the cost of employment to employers in Ireland, the less likely we are to be able to attract investment. It is the cumulative effect of the entire package that we are talking about. Similarly, the more capital gains tax is increased in relation to productive assets, the less likely people are to invest. That goes without saying. One has to take it in its entirety. If one made that change and made another really positive change, that could help.

What could come in parallel with an increase in employers' PRSI that was really positive? The only positive thing that could go with that would be a cut in corporation tax. Is that not right?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

No, one could still concentrate on the personal taxation rate because employers are paying their employees an overall package. If one was to adjust employee's take home pay by narrowing the tax wedge, that would have an impact also.

In general, what Mr. Shanahan is saying on behalf of the IDA is that any additional tax burden on the creation of employment would be an impediment to his role and the creation of a better environment for people to come in here and do business.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

It has a negative impact.

How would Mr. Shanahan describe his relationship with the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I would like to think I have a pretty good relationship with the Department. We work very closely in the IDA with the Department. The Deputy may know that I was previously the chief executive of Forfás, which was integrated into the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. That meant that for the last two years as we went through the integration process in which I was heavily involved, I worked very closely with the Department. I was also a member of the management committee of the Department for the last number of years. Personally, I consider that I have a good relationship and the IDA has a very good relationship with the Department.

Going on from the vision in Horizon 2020 and beyond, how important is it from Mr. Shanahan's point of view in selling Ireland overseas that there is stability at home?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

It depends on what the Deputy means by stability at home.

I refer to political stability.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

What investors like is certainty and clarity. What they have seen in Ireland over many years and successive Governments is a stability around our enterprise policy, which has been outward looking and, in general, pro-business. That is what they will expect to continue to see. Given the negative geopolitical developments around the world, it has become even more important and is a selling point for Ireland.

Are negative geopolitical issues in other parts of the world positives for Ireland currently? Is Ireland cashing in on the back of them?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I would not describe it like that. Geopolitical instability in any part of the world is not good for trade or commerce.

No, but are their difficulties our opportunity?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

In the short term, investors make decisions based on what is happening around the world. One difficulty we have, as do all countries involved in trade and investment, is the high level of geopolitical instability. We see it on the borders of Europe at the moment and it is not good overall for the level of investment, trade and tourism.

Anecdotally, would Mr. Shanahan be anxious to take up an equivalent role in Greece?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I am not sure if the Deputy is suggesting that position is vacant or that I should be thinking about my position here.

No. In regard to the regional development strategy, the IDA announced yesterday the initial tranche of larger urban centres. There is a substantial tier of towns in the population category of 1,500 to 7,000 underneath that. Mr. Shanahan told Deputy John Deasy that he was open to suggestions from local authorities. Is he open to suggestions now or will authorities have to wait until 2017? Local authorities may have plans, sites and ideas with potential. I am thinking of my own county of Limerick which suffers from a particular issue. We have a large urban centre in Limerick city, which sucks all of the activity in but there is then a huge geographical area of small towns and villages with a rural hinterland. The attractiveness of Limerick and Dublin makes inward investment outside these cities very difficult.

I refer in particular to the IDA taking on the FDI role that Shannon Development previously had without taking on the land bank. There is an anomaly there and I am concerned that we will be losers yet again in terms of the €150 million provision. Local authorities may be coming to the IDA with the plans but the land is in the ownership of Shannon Development which is bound by statute to get the commercial value for it. Is that something the IDA will consider? This is an issue for the old Shannon Development region stretching from Birr to Tralee. I would like to see some progress being made to address it.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

The Deputy raises important points. I will comment on the regional approach in a moment but will refer first to the land bank and Shannon Development. As I said earlier in response to Deputy Deasy, we work with landowners and property owners in the public and private sector.

I have met with Shannon Development twice in the past three weeks. I am saying this to reassure the Deputy that we have a very good working relationship with it. A significant portion of those meetings would have been given over to a discussion of property. It obviously now has a commercial remit and we fully understand that but it also has a requirement to market its lands and to develop them for commercial purposes. Given that it holds that land bank-----

I have a feeling that our region is disadvantaged compared to other regions by virtue of how the land is owned. It is no slur on the airport. It must run its business and make a commercial return. However, if there is a site for sale in Mallow in County Cork versus one for sale in Newcastle West and one is considerably more expensive than the other, there is an obvious attractiveness regarding where one would go. There is a feeling that the way in which the transfer of the land asset was constructed may have left us at a disadvantage. If that is the case, working with Shannon, would IDA Ireland bring forward recommendations for changes?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

We will continue to work with it on the availability of its lands. I would say it is a very good working relationship. At the moment, I do not see that disadvantage.

In respect of the approach to regional development, the Deputy described a situation where a large urban centre attracts the investment. I am speaking from a foreign direct investment and IDA perspective. Enterprise Ireland has quite a different profile in that it is more regionally spread because it is bottom-up and concerns indigenous companies. That is and will continue to be an issue in respect of foreign direct investment. We have made huge strides in trying to achieve regional balance but it is a factor that the trend in foreign direct investment is for companies to increasingly make decisions to locate in large urban areas. That is the international trend, which we are trying to buck.

We have only one city of over one million people. Ireland is winning about three and a half times the amount of foreign direct investment that one might ordinarily expect if one went on the basis of our percentage GDP of the 28 EU member states so we are getting a lot of it and that is filtering out to all regions. We need to bear in mind that this is international competition. There are approximately 190 cities in China with over one million people. There are 36 cities in Europe with over one million people. There are about 50 metropolitan areas in the US which have over one million people. We are trying to market Ireland which, on the whole, has four million people and one city of international scale, which is Dublin. Our approach is then to market regions. For the most part, the regions have about half a million people on average and some of them have far fewer. That is to put it in context. Large urban centres are likely to continue being hubs and attractors of foreign direct investment. Obviously, we will make every effort to disperse further than that but they are our best attractor in the first instance from which we build out.

I thank the witnesses for coming in and giving of their time. I think they work very well together. I had the pleasure of meeting both sides at a recent event with the Minister in Athlone. It was great to see the heads of Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland and the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation in the one place working with like-minded people.

I will direct my question to IDA Ireland. I appreciate that when it is attracting the company, there is a complete package that must be put out there to attract a company to an area. It includes things like the advance availability of a suitable premises that would cover both office and manufacturing. Some places would have a third-level institution that would provide talented employees who are ready to go. Companies nowadays want to see a quality of life for their staff so what a town or city has to offer is very important.

There is a perception on the ground that IDA visits are very important, some towns are getting more of them than others and some towns are getting none. I am very fortunate in representing a constituency that has two counties and three very large towns, one of which I have to say from a parochial perspective is doing reasonably well. The other two towns do not seem to be getting the IDA visits people on the ground would like. What does an area or town need to do to get an IDA visit and what kind of money is invested by the IDA in a visit to attract people to the town to have a look at it?

In his presentation, Mr. Shanahan said that there were 148 job losses in the miscellaneous sector. Could he tell me what this sector is? I come from the midlands which has become a pharma hub. In his presentation, Mr. Shanahan said that there are fewer new jobs in the pharmaceutical sector. Why is there a lack of growth in this sector? It seems to be doing very well and the perception is that it is doing well but Mr. Shanahan says that there are fewer jobs in the pharmaceutical sector and less growth. What is the reason for this?

People think IDA visits are the most important thing and they forget about Enterprise Ireland, indigenous companies and jobs that are being provided. There is an obsession with getting an IDA visit and getting a factory into a town.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Deputy McFadden's analysis of what companies are looking for in terms of the availability of talent and quality of life is right. As I pointed out in my opening statement, we are at an all-time high in terms of the number of people employed in multinationals. The number of IDA site visits fluctuates but it is true to say that it has declined a little. There are a couple of reasons for this. First, site visits have probably become less important in a very connected age. Companies can do a huge amount from corporate head offices in the US, Europe or elsewhere. They can get to know an area and we can talk to them and show them a lot about an area and a particular building so the physical site visits the Deputy says there is a preoccupation with have become less important. They will become less important as we try to do more in the space of showing people what Ireland is like without them having to touch down here or having to repeatedly touch down.

People overlook the fact that a significant portion of our investment comes from existing companies who are growing their presence in Ireland either in the locations in which they are located or alternative locations. Zimmer, which already had a very strong base in Shannon, announced in the first few weeks of the year that it was opening up a 250-person operation in Oranmore. Obviously, the requirement for site visits where companies already have a good understanding of Ireland and an area declines. We present companies who are coming in for site visits with proposed itineraries and locations so we get a sense of what they are looking for and what might take their fancy. They ultimately decide where they would like to visit. It could be that they have some perception of a particular area, they know another company that is in the area or they have sold well to a particular area. That changes over time. Site visits are not the ultimate arbiter or even a good proxy of our performance if one looks at site visits relative to the investment and increases in employment.

The pharmaceutical sector has performed very well for Ireland over many years. Obviously the sector hit the patent cliff which resulted in it taking a pause as companies tried to figure out where they sat within that. Ireland has probably not been as heavily impacted by the patent cliff as was initially thought. We are seeing further investment in the bio-pharmaceutical sector, with Bristol-Meyers Squibb announcing a $900 million investment in Cruiserath in north Dublin, for example, after last year's budgetary announcement. We are also seeing a huge amount of mergers and acquisitions activity within the sector, as companies trade different elements of their businesses, merge or divest. Some of that still has to play out and we will then see what comes through on the next wave of development.

I will have to double-check to what the reference to "miscellaneous industry" relates, unless one of my colleagues knows. I will have to double-check which companies are being referred to, but clearly they are companies which we found difficult to categorise under any of the other headings.

I thank Mr. Shanahan for his responses and have one further question for him. As I said, I represent a two-county constituency which has three large towns. How can local councillors and I, as public representatives, get IDA Ireland to look at the other two towns and try to sell them better than they are being sold at the moment?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

There is actually a great opportunity now, based on what was announced yesterday, to develop regional plans. As I said earlier, either a senior manager from IDA Ireland or Enterprise Ireland will be charged with developing those plans, but both agencies will be involved in each region in the development of the plans. That will be about what we will do in each region, from a top-down perspective, but mainly it will be about trying to bring forward ideas from the regions themselves and the towns within them as to what they think they can do. That might involve a branding initiative, the development of a missing piece of infrastructure and so forth. For our part, we will help regions and towns identify what we believe are the most challenging areas in terms of attractiveness for foreign direct investment.

It would be very helpful from an IDA perspective for public representatives to talk up their areas and regions. That is hugely important because our clients can Google. They can Google the proceedings of these Houses and even the proceedings of this committee come up in Google searches-----

Do you Google, Mr. Shanahan?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I have had occasion to find use for Google, yes.

There are many public representatives who feel a bit like John the Baptist. They do not feel that anyone Googles anything they say. They have been talking for a long number of years about the IDA visiting their areas.

I completely agree with Mr. Shanahan that positivity follows positivity. It is very important that we talk up our areas and, for my part, I would like to talk up Longford and Mullingar today. I hope there is something Mr. Shanahan can do for me.

On a point of clarification, does Mr. Shanahan have a list of visits that would have been arranged in each of the different counties over recent years?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Yes, we have a-----

Can Mr. Shanahan tell me, for example, how many visits were made to Deputy McFadden's area or my area?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Yes.

Can we have that list?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

We can forward it to the committee.

The other issue related to visits and talking up one's area is that of the actual number of jobs created. I am saying this in the context of the initiative that was announced yesterday. That initiative was announced by the Government, so do I take it that it is Government policy or is it an initiative that was brought forward by the IDA and simply announced by the Government? Where did the idea come from?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I can speak to the IDA portion of what was announced yesterday. We developed a plan around the need for property investment over the five-year period. We believe that is necessary-----

What about regional investment?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Regional investment is an issue for Enterprise Ireland-----

That is different. Enterprise Ireland does a different part of this work.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

The proposal for €150 million which relates to IDA property was put forward by IDA Ireland.

IDA Ireland has listed nine new advanced technology buildings in different locations. Will Mr. Shanahan, by way of a submission to the committee, give us the criteria behind the selection of those areas and tell us what brought them across the line? I am looking at 2011, 2012 and 2013 in the context of jobs created and am bearing in mind that the IDA proposes to put one of the buildings in Carlow, which is in my constituency. In Carlow the IDA created 197 jobs in 2011, 132 in 2012, and 91 in 2013, but in the other part of that constituency, Kilkenny, the IDA created only one job in 2011, 125 in 2012 and 80 in 2013. I do not propose to go through every county but to read the data on a selection. In Laois the IDA created two jobs in 2011 and none in 2012 and 2013. In Limerick, which Deputy O'Donovan was speaking about, in spite of the question about the landbank there and how it will be dealt with, the IDA created 253 jobs in 2011, 556 in 2012 and 560 in 2013. I know that Dublin has a critical mass but when people outside of the capital look at these figures, in spite of the counties being talked up by their public representatives, they see 7,351 jobs were created in Dublin in 2011, 8,464 jobs in 2012 and 6,862 jobs in 2013. The public would suggest to us that our efforts, our political policies and the efforts of the IDA have, by and large, failed some of the regions or some of the counties within those regions.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

In the first instance, I can elucidate the criteria now if required or I can do so in a follow-up submission. Indeed, I think I set them out earlier for one of the Deputies. We look at places where we believe we may be able to win and attract investment. Such locations generally have an existing base of enterprise, whether that be IDA or Enterprise Ireland companies that act as a cluster, and a critical mass of population and a talent pool that we can draw on. Members will note that all of the areas that were identified yesterday have either an institute of technology or a university. We also look at the extent to which the private sector is stepping up in terms of providing these advance solutions. Clearly if they are doing so, then the IDA would not step into the area. Our preference is that the private sector steps up and provides these solutions.

Does Mr. Shanahan's reference to advance solutions mean buildings?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Yes.

I want to argue this out because there are many counties that have suitable buildings available. They have not been encouraged to provide even more buildings because they were not sure that they would secure tenants for them. I am particularly taken by the fact that Mr. Shanahan has said that the IDA would meet county councils and so forth. One such council wrote to the IDA on 10 October seeking a meeting but it still has not secured one.

I respect the job that the IDA does, by the way.

I am not in any way being critical of the overall approach, with the exception that the regions have suffered and that county councils have made every effort, with the support of their Oireachtas Members, to highlight the problems in some of these counties. By and large, they have not been successful. My political career started in 1979. I can remember when a then Fine Gael Deputy - a well-respected Deputy - was making the case that a great number of jobs were attracted to centres such as Dublin, Limerick, Cork and Waterford, and I can understand that. However, the regions have been making representations for a long time, leading delegations to meet Ministers of various political persuasions and, by and large, they have not been successful. I refer to what Deputy McFadden said this morning. The councils ask what they have to do to market their county and to make the IDA understand that they are attractive places in which to live. The information in the table shows a significant imbalance as to where these jobs go and how they are attracted here.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I do not dispute that there is an imbalance in terms of the regional profile of foreign direct investment. What I am trying to bring to the discussion is some of the reality about the extent to which the expectations can be met, no matter how hard IDA markets a particular area. In my response to Deputy O'Donovan, I was trying to put in context that a whole region will have a population base of 500,000 people, from within which we have to draw a talent pool. We are competing with numerous international mega-cities which have multiples of that. This is the reality of being out in the market and trying to attract companies. I will be honest with the Chairman by explaining that they are blind to county borders and blind to cities or towns. They want to know that they can achieve what they need to do in the area, which is to set up and attract the talent. To attract the talent, locations need to be attractive places in which to live and work and provide all of the other things, such as the infrastructure and public transport. That is the reality. It is not within our gift to move these investments around. They make the ultimate decision. What we can do and what we will do is to work with the local authorities. I am surprised to learn that a county council has written to us and has not received a response because it is normal practice in the IDA to respond to all sorts of correspondence, much of which comes from public representatives at local level. We will continue to work with local authorities and there will be a more structured forum now through the regional action plans.

I would still suggest that the regions are coming from a very low base. There is no doubt that the IDA is successful in attracting companies to come to the country. However, once the companies identify Ireland as a place in which to set up, what happens then and who influences that company? They may be influenced by the capital and so on, but others are not. I have been out in the marketplace and I understand the challenges. This is not meant as a political charge against this Government but looking at some of the factories that located in different places, one would almost believe that a constituency would need a Minister to get a visit or a factory. They may visit a number of counties. Politicians and Oireachtas Members, in particular, are often accused of not carrying enough weight even to get a visit. The criteria for arranging these visits and the background to the consideration of the visits needs to be explained in greater detail to the public at large in order that they understand that we are not sitting on our hands with regard to the counties we represent as national parliamentarians. We are not allowing it to be sucked into one centre because we want to see it divided fairly throughout the country, regardless of who represents the different counties or constituencies.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I can fully understand that and I can reassure the Chairman that, from our perspective, the IDA has, over the past five years, tried hard to address that regional imbalance which is improving at regional level. Of the 197 investments made last year, 88 came from our new name investments. The other investments are expansions or other types of investment from the existing portfolio which already have a presence. I gave Deputy McFadden an example of where a company decided to set up a second site in Ireland but such companies are more likely to expand in the location where they are based. From where I sit, the best approach to regional development is that we market regions and also the strong urban areas within those regions. We are not competing within Ireland or even within a region. We are competing with this project going to another European destination, remaining in the US because the US states have upped their game in terms of attractiveness, or going to a country in Asia.

The measurement by which the IDA always seems to be judged is the number of jobs created. Does the IDA set its own targets for that?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Targets as to the number of jobs and whether we set our targets?

Mr. Shanahan spoke about the Horizon 2020 targets. Are those his targets?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

They are the organisation's. We are currently going through the process by which the board of the organisation signs off on the strategy of the organisation with input from our parent Department and the Minister.

So the organisation sets its own targets and the Minister oversees it.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Yes, the Minister oversees it.

The IDA's target for jobs is set by the IDA, in effect.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

They are Government targets for jobs and they are contained in the Action Plan for Jobs and were set out recently. As part of that, the Government set out how much it is expecting from foreign direct investment. The board then sets a strategy and sets out the annual targets for the IDA.

Why does the IDA always exclusively measure itself by jobs targets? Would the tax brought into the country by client companies be a fair way of measuring performance, for example?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

It depends on the imperative, and the imperative for successive Governments has been to create employment for the citizens of the State. One could judge foreign direct investment in a number of ways, for example, based both on employment and on the number of investments, as we do. It could be judged on the value of those investments. I am not quite sure whether tax take is an accurate metric for foreign direct investment in that I have not seen it done anywhere else nor am I aware that it is done anywhere else. I have seen number and capital value of investments and employment used elsewhere.

The tax figures would be useful.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

They provide a sense of what our employment base is paying in corporate tax.

What do the client companies pay in corporate tax?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

It is currently 66% of the overall corporate tax rate.

How much is that?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I do not have the figure to hand but we can provide it to the Deputy. It is public information.

Is it 66% of the overall corporate tax?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Yes.

I would be grateful if Mr. Shanahan could provide me with that figure.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Yes, of course.

It is €4 billion.

Mr. Shanahan's position on corporate tax is a very strong one.

What would the benefit be to the Exchequer if corporate tax was raised by 1%? Does Mr. Shanahan have an estimate?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I do not have an estimate for that. The question may be more appropriately directed at the Department of Finance, which, I suspect, has that modelling available.

Am I correct that the 12.5% corporate tax rate is the big selling point abroad?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

No, that is incorrect. As I responded to Deputy Deasy earlier, it is part of the arsenal and I believe that there is probably too much emphasis on tax both internationally and sometimes nationally. For companies to operate here, they need to be able to set up and operate in a business environment that enables them to attract the talent they need. When I walk into boardrooms across the world, talent availability is the number one thing raised with us. A competitive tax regime is absolutely a help in attracting companies to Ireland and we should not be apologetic about that. We need a competitive tax regime to do it.

I get conflicting signals. I have different pictures from Mr. Shanahan and from the multinationals about that, but presumably that is understandable. I apologise I was not present when Deputy Deasy posed questions. The double Irish scenario and so on were touched on I am sure and the developments in the US where President Obama is examining the issue of multinationals, some of which are client companies of IDA Ireland, putting their money offshore and returning it to the US. Is IDA Ireland making efforts to lobby Congress to make sure Ireland is not disadvantaged if there is a change?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

We do not interfere with the tax decisions of other jurisdictions. We monitor them closely. I said in response to Deputy Deasy that a number of initiatives and developments are happening worldwide - base erosion and profit shifting under the OECD being one. There are initiatives at European level and there have been new announcements of proposals and developments in the US. The thrust of all of them is an increasing alignment between the tax liability of companies and substance. My belief is, as that progresses, it will be beneficial for Ireland because of our attractive corporate tax rate of 12.5%.

When Ireland's reputation was damaged by us being wrongly branded as a tax haven in a US Congress report, IDA Ireland made strong representations. Did officials not travel to the US?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I understand my predecessor communicated at the time our belief that this was not the case and we continue to communicate that we do not believe Ireland is a tax haven. If one looks at the objective analysis of this conducted by the OECD and others, it clearly shows that we are not.

I agree. It is absolutely correct that we are not. We may have some of the ingredients of a tax haven but we are not a tax haven in that sense. However, IDA Ireland rightly made representations to the US Congress and others that this is not the case. Presumably, if there are moves now that might disadvantage Ireland and discourage companies from locating here, IDA Ireland will make moves that are in the interest of the nation.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

At all times, we set out our position and where people have arrived at uninformed positions in respect of what do, we seek to educate them. On the other hand, the tax affairs of another jurisdiction are sovereign. We will not make those decisions. There is probably a line-----

Has IDA Ireland responded to President Obama's latest initiative?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

We have sought to understand what it might mean if it were to progress but-----

What could it mean?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

It probably would mean that the initiative would equalise tax rates somewhat given the way it is structured in order that the differentials between different jurisdictions are reduced. It is an attempt to take tax more and more out of the equation, which, as I said in response to Deputy Deasy, will probably increasingly happen over time anyway and we need to work on the other competitive advantages we have, which influence companies in making decisions. There are many proposals. The Deputy has referred to a specific set of proposals made by President Obama but there have been many proposals on tax reform in the US and other jurisdictions. We cannot respond to everything. People have opinions and they voice them but they have to go through a process and I do not know what the outcome will be in respect of the current set of proposals.

Is IDA Ireland examining them?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Of course.

What is Mr. Shanahan's initial reaction?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I believe they will equalise the tax advantage of different countries.

But what does that mean for Ireland?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

It means it will make the environment more competitive but that is what we do every day. We go out and we win investment in a competitive environment. Some of that competition comes because of the way tax rates are structured or because we do not have the critical mass of urban areas or all the talent we would like to have available. On the other hand, we win more investment than we could probably expect given the size of the country and on a metric such as our share of GDP among the EU28, we outperform other countries. We do so because we have a competitive tax offering currently and we need to continue to protect that and build on it. We have probably some of the best talent available worldwide. Ireland is an attractive place to live and work and we have attractive urban areas, even if they are not international cities of scale. That is what we compete on.

Are there tax advantages to induce people to come here other than the 12.5% corporation tax rate? The double Irish arrangement is being abolished. Are there other inducements? For instance, some multinationals can indulge in peculiar transactions involving patent royalties, intellectual property and so on, which reduce their profits here significantly. Would that make Ireland attractive to companies?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

We have a competitive tax code. There are structures around amortisation of intellectual property and there is a 25% tax credit in respect of research and development expenditure. Personal taxation rates come into play if someone intends to set up and operate a business here. The Minister for Finance announced in budget 2015 that a knowledge development box will be introduced, in which there will be significant interest, which will be attractive to some multinationals. Companies look at the entire package.

Is it fair to say some fairly artificial transactions are being transacted by some of IDA Ireland's client companies, which has reduced their profits?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

No, I would not say that but the Deputy might have knowledge that I am not aware of.

Does Mr. Shanahan think all their transactions are bona fide?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I have no reason to believe that they are not from where I sit. We do not have intimate knowledge of our clients' tax dealings. Other arms of the State are better versed in them but I have no direct knowledge of anything that is not bona fide.

Does IDA Ireland keep in touch with the Revenue about corporate taxation?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

We have engagement with Revenue but, from a policy perspective, we engage with the Department of Finance, which has responsibility for tax policy.

How did Frank Ryan come to be chairman of IDA Ireland?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

That is a question the Deputy would have to direct to the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation who-----

Does Mr. Shanahan not know?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

He was appointed by the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. Perhaps that is what the Deputy was asking.

Correct. Was there an interview process?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Again, the Deputy would have to ask the Minister.

Does Mr. Shanahan not know?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I do not know. There is no reason that the-----

Was Mr. Shanahan on the board at the time?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

-----chief executive-----

Was Mr. Shanahan on the board?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I was present at the board in an ex officio capacity.

I presume the board knows what procedure was used to appoint the chairman.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

It is a matter for the Minister, not the board.

So the board has no input whatsoever?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Not that I am aware of.

Did an interview take place?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Again, I have already answered that question. I do not know if there was an interview.

How are members of the board of IDA Ireland appointed?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I think I have just responded to that. The Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation appoints the chairman of IDA Ireland. That is my understanding.

Correct. However, I want to know if prospective board members are obliged to undergo any other process.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I respectfully suggest that is a question the Deputy will have to direct to the Minister and his Department.

This is ridiculous. Mr. Shanahan knows perfectly well what is the answer. Surely he is not trying to tell me that he, as chief executive, does not know what is the procedure for appointing board members.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I know how board members are appointed. However, I do not know how the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation deliberated in the context of appointing Frank Ryan. That is a matter about which the Deputy will have to ask the Minister.

Does Mr. Shanahan know if the positions were advertised? Did those who were appointed appear before any Oireachtas committees prior to taking up their positions?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I am not aware of whether they were advertised. My recollection is that the chairman appeared before an Oireachtas committee at the point when he was due to be appointed. I am not sure whether he did so before or after he was appointed but it was certainly around the time of his appointment.

Is it normal for prospective members to go before Oireachtas committees?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I am not sure that it is or that it was.

The Deputy should realise that this may not be a matter for Mr. Shanahan.

This matter relates to corporate governance and it is very important to know how things are done. It may not be a matter for Mr. Shanahan but I want to establish of what he is aware. He is a member of the board.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I am happy to respond to the Deputy and I think I have already done so. If he has another question, I would be happy to answer it.

Mr. Shanahan is a member of the board. The board should be aware of the exact nature of the procedure used to appoint the chairman. It would be crazy if the board was not aware of the position in that regard. It certainly should be aware of it. If the position is advertised, then the board should be aware of that fact as well. It is absurd to state that it is just a matter for the Minister and that the board does not know the position. It must know and it must be able to express an opinion. That is what happens in the context of most State agencies.

We could write to the Minister and address to him the questions the Deputy has just put to Mr. Shanahan.

I could also table a parliamentary question. It is very important that we know how corporate governance operates at the top of IDA Ireland and other semi-State bodies. This matter comes within both our remit and our brief. We should also be in a position to know how the chairperson of a State body is appointed. That is absolutely vital.

Was it not the case that the position Mr. Shanahan now holds was advertised?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Correct, it was advertised nationally and internationally.

Will Mr. Shanahan outline what happened? How many candidates applied for the position?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I am not privy to the number of candidates that were involved-----

I accept that.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

-----because I was part of the process. In terms of my understanding of the process, as a participant in it, the position was publicly advertised nationally and internationally. The competition relating to it was run by the Public Appointments Service. I believe IDA Ireland engaged with an international recruiter also. I cannot recall the name of the company involved but one of my colleagues may know. If it helps the Deputy, there was a three-stage interview process.

There is nothing personal about this. I put questions of this nature to everybody who comes before us. It is just that it is extremely important to know how these things are done.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

In so far as I can, I am happy to respond to the Deputy. I have already told him what I know in terms of my knowledge of the process in which I am involved and I also told him what I do and do not know with regard to the chairman's appointment. As he pointed out himself, the Deputy can seek further information on that matter through other means.

Yes, but it is also important for us to know how the board regards the appointment process and how much its members know about that process. It would be very wrong if these appointments were made without the board having any knowledge with regard to what happens. In fact, it would be absolutely absurd.

The annual report states that, in the context of transactions, directors must make disclosures if they have an interest in a matter. There was approximately €8 million worth of transactions involved in this regard. Will Mr. Shanahan provide details of the directors involved and of the companies with which they were involved? I am referring to instances where grants were provided to companies. The total amount involved - approximately €8 million - is disclosed, as is information regarding grants awarded and grants paid. For some reason, however, information is not provided in respect of the directors or the companies involved. I do not know why that is. Enterprise Ireland always produces information in this regard when we require it. Is Mr. Shanahan in a position to produce it?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I can certainly respond to the Deputy and the committee in writing on that matter. I do not have the details relating to it to hand. My understanding is that one of the reasons they are not included in the annual report - I will verify this for the Deputy - is that there would be company specifics involved and that might pose a difficulty from a commercial perspective. In the context of companies, we do not normally disclose commercial dealings. However, that is not the case with regard to individual board members who may have been conflicted. In so far as it does not create a commercial issue, we would obviously be delighted to provide the relevant information.

The report indicates that the transaction included three grant approvals totalling €8.7 million and three grant payments totalling €7.3 million. Deputy Ross is seeking details in that regard. Perhaps Mr. Shanahan will make it available to us.

I cannot see any reason that the full details should not be provided. It would be somewhat alarming if Mr. Shanahan was not prepared to provide such details. Enterprise Ireland has always produced full details when requested to do so. Perhaps Mr. Shanahan will-----

Mr. Martin Shanahan

We will follow up with the committee on that.

I thank Mr. Shanahan.

Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland had a joint office in Taiwan, a market of 24 million people. Now, however, neither organisation has any representation there. Some 16 other European countries have representation in Taiwan. Why was Enterprise Ireland's and IDA Ireland's representation withdrawn?

Mr. Kevin Sherry

Enterprise Ireland does not have an office in Taiwan. It has three offices in China in Shanghai, Beijing and Hong Kong. The office in Hong Kong has responsibility for Taiwan and we have what we term a "pathfinder" in that market, which is also the case with many other markets. Pathfinders are individuals who operate in a private capacity and who provide services, as required, to clients of Enterprise Ireland. The scale of the exports and client demand and interests involved would not warrant us having a office in Taiwan.

Why is it that 16 other European countries believe it is important to have offices in Taiwan? Those countries generate trade to and from Taiwan. They have an immediate market there in view of the fact that the population of Taiwan is 24 million. Taiwan has protocols and cross-Strait agreements with China. Everybody else deals with Taiwan. In fact, New Zealand, which is in direct competition with Ireland in the context of the food industry, recently concluded a huge deal with that country. However, we are not represented in Taiwan. Mr. Sherry may say that Enterprise Ireland has three offices in China. However, these do not serve the Taiwanese market in an adequate way. There is a European office in Taiwan which looks after the interests of the European Union in general. In order to be involved in a market, one needs to have a physical presence in it. Some 16 other European countries have such a physical presence in Taiwan. Ireland is ignoring a market of 24 million people. We celebrated the notion that the market in China has been opened to Irish beef.

The market in Taiwan is open to Irish beef. I know that is not Mr. Sherry's specific area. There are 200 Irish nationals in Taiwan and some of them are employed in some of the biggest American companies. They cannot understand why enterprise bodies are not tapping into their resources and neither can they understand why Enterprise Ireland ended its presence in Taiwan. Why do the enterprise bodies not have an office there when 16 other competitors have offices? It has nothing to do with a One China policy. We all recognise that, as does Taiwan, yet Enterprise Ireland does not get involved there. I have been asking the question of IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland for three or four years. Nobody can comprehend why this country, which pins all of its hopes on an export boom, if one likes, to take us out of the recession, would ignore 24 million people in the Taiwanese market.

Mr. Kevin Sherry

We do not ignore the market. We service it from Hong Kong. Our territory director visits there regularly. We have a pathfinder in place. We have 32 offices around the world. Wherever possible, we co-locate with either the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, through the consulate or embassy, or another agency. We obviously have to make decisions about where we locate the offices, which is primarily driven by a combination of factors. Those factors are, first, the market opportunity and the capability of Irish companies to service the market opportunity in particular sectors. The second is the client demand for that particular market. The third is, increasingly, what we have tried to focus on in terms of the development of our network, in that there has been a change in terms of the requirements of our clients from just a geographic presence to specific domain expertise. We referred previously to the specific expertise we require as a team and as an organisation to service the needs of our clients, which is more about the specific sector expertise. We spoke earlier about the pharmaceutical sector with IDA Ireland. Whether it is medical devices, telecommunications or other areas such as financial services, our clients are looking for us to have specific expertise in those particular areas - to have the Rolodex and the networks and to understand the market dynamics in those particular sectors in order that we can help them access the contacts in those markets, and also to work with them in helping them to develop market strategies where they can penetrate those markets.

The way we operate is that, increasingly, we have moved to having a network where the specialist expertise that we cannot put in every office is developed within certain offices in the region that can provide the expertise across the region. In parallel with that what we have done is build out our external network of pathfinders who effectively are trade consultants around the globe and we have expanded the network with people who have specific expertise that can assist our clients when required and that we would network them to those individuals. We constantly review our overseas office network and make decisions based on those criteria about where we should locate offices. In some cases that will result in us closing offices, which we have done. To give some examples of that, we have closed an office in Glasgow and Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia. We moved our office in India from Delhi to Mumbai. We have also opened other offices. We opened an office in Austin, Texas and in-----

I am sorry to cut across Mr. Sherry, but I know all that. My question is about Taiwan and a market of 24 million people. One can go there and be served New Zealand lamb and Scotch whisky but one would find it hard to get anything to do with Ireland. The complaint being made is that there is no presence. One cannot work a market unless there is someone in it. If I am not mistaken, there are 16 other European countries working that marketplace. How do the witnesses expect to get any share of the market, which is worth €500 million in exports and imports? How do the agencies hope to exploit the arrangements between Taiwan and China on the protocols and cross-trade agreements that are in place or in the protection of intellectual property rights? The view has been taken that it is quite safe to do it this way than by going directly to China. Another issue relates to the movement of Chinese factories into Vietnam and how they are being built. Yet, we have nobody in Taiwan.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

We have 32 offices overseas and, as Mr. Sherry said, we constantly review office location and opening and closing offices. The choice of offices is a response to clients’ needs. At any stage if we see that there is a need to open an office, as opposed to just dealing with it from another territory, and with trade consultants in place, we will then decide, as we have done recently, for example, in South Africa where we have now decided to put an office.

There was a presence in Taiwan and funding for it was stopped. The other 16 countries in Europe who are there do not understand why that was done. That is their view on it. I am getting the view of IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland today. I believe the agencies should fund an office in Taiwan because of the volume of goods and services being requested and being made and delivered from that location. There are 200 Irish people there who are connected to some of the biggest companies in Taiwan and, bar one, their expertise and knowledge of the market has never been exploited either. All of the effort is centred on China and the other Asian markets and Taiwan has been shoved to one side. I urge that the position would be reviewed. I have asked Ministers to review the matter previously. I was told that it has nothing to do with the One China policy. It is about a market of 24 million people. I see all the other offices there. It is difficult to see a market of 24 million people where we are not represented. The witnesses might say Taiwan is serviced from mainland China but that is no substitute for a greater effort in the marketplace.

I wish to speak on the same issue. I support the Chairman’s position. Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland had a representative office there a few years ago. The question is whether it is cost effective to have someone based in Taipei. Opportunities are presented by a market of 24 million people. Given the visa waiver programme, there are opportunities in Asia and the Chinese market. I put it to Ms Sinnamon that perhaps an outreach office could be considered if not a fully-fledged one, where a person is located as opposed to having someone go there occasionally. The Chairman has made the point very clearly. There is currently investment from the European office and the UK office, which I have seen myself. There is an opportunity for trade, especially in the context of Food Horizon 2020 with dairy products. The market is consolidated and is very much English speaking.

I concur with the Chairman's very clear opinion on it.

I compliment both organisations on their record results in 2014. They made a huge contribution to the overall well-being of the State in recent years when we were in deep recession. If it were not for the activities of the IDA and Enterprise Ireland, with regard to exports and bringing in new companies and investments it would have been far more difficult for us to have survived an extremely difficult period. The success of the IDA and Enterprise Ireland was one of the differences between us and other countries in programmes, such as Greece, Portugal and Spain.

With regard to the specific issue we are discussing, which the Chairman raised, 32 seems to be a very small number of offices for Enterprise Ireland to have abroad. It also looks strange that Enterprise Ireland will have 55 redundancies. The question of Ireland house, and the degree to which various State agencies co-operate in co-location, is a live issue. There is much to be desired. This would involve the IDA, Enterprise Ireland, Fáilte Ireland and the entire tourist industry, and Irish multinationals such as ESB International. Much more could be done to maximise having a type of Ireland house throughout the world. That Enterprise Ireland has only 32 offices when there are almost 200 countries in the world, not to talk about the number of these offices which are in the United States, means we are spread very thinly. The end result is that three quarters of IDA activity is in the United States, from where three quarters of investment has come. The figure for Europe is 19% and it is 8% from the rest of the world. How is this being addressed to get a better balance? There is no doubt the United States is an absolute phenomenon with regard to the quality, degree and quantity of inward investment, but it shows up the other side of the coin, whereby the rest of the world is poorly represented. We have rapidly-growing markets and companies in the far east and Latin America. I would like to get a response as to why the proportions remain the same.

I do not know whether this question has been asked, but do we market the entire island? To what degree is Northern Ireland engaged with Enterprise Ireland and the IDA in terms of marketing the island and inward investment?

A question was asked about attracting business from abroad to regional areas. Under the auspices of the European Union we created a huge necklace of regional colleges which became institutes of technology, including in Letterkenny, Sligo, Mayo, Galway, Kerry, Carlow and Waterford. Surely it should be easy to put together a cluster of skills from each of these, and include counties which do not have institutes of technology, to market the regions to companies abroad. The Chairman pointed out certain counties receive little or no inward investment. Surely they could be attached to an institute of education in the vicinity to create a skill cluster and talent pool which could be marketed.

Is the Irish education system responding adequately to talent requirements? We are very heavily into the IT and financial services sectors in which many of the skills involved are fairly advanced. Is the system sufficiently geared to respond to employment needs? What percentage of people are recruited from abroad to service new investment coming into the country?

How is ethical investment dealt with? Does the IDA have a specific approach to attract to Ireland companies it deems to be ethical which deal with the Third World and have a particular approach?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

The Deputy has asked many questions. I will begin by speaking about our resources and Mr. Sherry will speak about collaboration abroad and how we work effectively on this.

Over the past year we have recruited an additional 20 people to beef up our overseas network. The recruitment programme was approved approximately a year ago and it has been completed. More people are in the field working with Irish companies. As I stated, we have gone through a voluntary redundancy programme in Ireland. While more than 20 people are being recruited to work overseas, 47 people have agreed to exit under the voluntary programme in Ireland. We have approval from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to recruit an additional 21 staff. It is about reskilling the organisation, adding additional resources overseas and changing how we operate. We have also brought on board a large number of trade consultants - we call them pathfinders - in 55 countries. While we have 32 offices worldwide, we have trade consultants who help us in countries where we do not have offices. We constantly review whether we need an office, which is driven by companies responding to clients' needs and constantly examining what is happening in countries and whether we need to increase our resources.

With proper co-location one person could be in an office where other services are provided by the IDA, the ESB or Fáilte Ireland, so that Enterprise Ireland would not have to establish an office per se.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Mr. Sherry deals with this.

It is always very valuable to have a presence on the ground, rather than, for example, servicing Africa from Madrid or Turkey from Italy. In such cases one is not on the ground to actually know what is going on in a real fashion. Perhaps opportunities have been lost which could have been dealt with if there had been a full sharing of facilities.

Mr. Kevin Sherry

We have to make choices on where we locate our offices and that is kept under constant review. We have 32 offices overseas, 18 of which are co-located with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Typically more than one agency is co-located with Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in those locations, for example, IDA, Bord Bia, and in some cases Tourism Ireland. In the United Arab Emirates, the embassy is in Abu Dhabi but we are co-located with the visa office in Dubai. We recently opened an office in Perth and are co-located with the honorary consul. We are co-located with another agency in six other offices and in the remaining six locations there is no other agency as the embassy or consulate is located in the political capital. The Deputy would be well aware that in South Africa the embassy is located in Pretoria, which is the political capital and we are located in Johannesburg which is the commercial capital. On the east coast of Australia we are co-located in Sydney with the consulate, while the embassy is in Canberra. In locations where we do not have a physical presence ourselves as our chief executive, Ms Julie Sinnamon has said, we use a network of pathfinders. We work hand in glove with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

As the Deputy knows the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade has a much more extensive network in Africa. Last year Enterprise Ireland brought all the commercial counsellors together and set up a training programme for them. We work hand in glove with the commercial counsellors and get tremendous co-operation not just on trade missions but daily. Similarly, as I mentioned earlier, we work hand in hand with IDA on overseas trade missions and have access to networks.

We are able to leverage those networks. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade has a global Irish network programme and we operate with a subset of that, we have a global Irish contacts programme, which is a smaller grouping of the global Irish network who are committed to providing assistance to indigenous Irish companies by providing contacts and networks to get in the right doors overseas.

On the question of marketing the island of Ireland, we collaborate and work very closely with Invest NI in certain area. Ms Sinnamon mentioned the skills programmes, which Enterprise Ireland runs and Invest NI has companies that participate on these programmes. Earlier last month Ms Sinnamon together with representatives from Invest NI and UK Trade & Investment, UKTI, led a joint mission to United Arab Emirates on Arab health. We meet them on a very regular basis. We had a joint meeting with the UKTI team in Dublin last week. They are running a series of initiatives, in which we are involved and we can encourage Irish companies to participate in them. UKTI runs a programme called large opportunities programme, where they target a range of potential large construction opportunities across the globe. We have collaborated on a number of programmes where we believe there are specific opportunities for Irish companies.

Most recently we moved our office in Stockholm from what was a stand-alone office into co-locating with the embassy. Wherever we can co-locate we do.

Would the IDA reply to that question also?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I will ask my colleague Mr. Dermot Clohessy to elucidate on a few of my comments. As the Deputy pointed out approximately 70% of foreign direct investment comes from North America, 20% comes from Europe and 10% from growth markets. Foreign direct investment from the US has performed over many years and that market is currently experiencing extremely strong growth. That is encouraging and will be beneficial to us.

In the past number of years Europe has been flat but we would expect to see some growth in the level of investment emanating from Europe in the coming years. We would like to increase our market share in Europe. There is a need for investment of resources in offices and staff in growth markets but it will require a longer period to gain a return. We have to build the relationships. The Deputy will be keenly aware of the importance of government to government relationships in those markets as well as the commercial relationships underneath. We are starting to see some returns from both India and China but it will take time to ramp it up. Our ambition is to achieve a more balanced portfolio.

The institutes of technology, the then regional technical colleges, are key attractors. I referred to this in my response to Deputy Deasy and the Chairman. Part of the reason we market regions is that they had institutes of technology which can feed the region. The ITs are a significant asset in terms of achieving regional development. Will Mr. Clohessy add to what I have said?

Mr. Dermot Clohessy

I will address the overseas office network and the importance of ensuring we have a presence in the areas we believe can deliver for us. The decisions by IDA are evidence based on the opportunity for Ireland to win some of the business that comes from foreign direct investment from particular countries or regions. Consequently as Mr. Kevin Sherry has alluded to we keep an eye on the location of our offices to ascertain if they are in the right places. At a headline level it is based on an analysis of the data of their outward foreign direct investment into Europe and what Ireland can win. We keep that under review.

The IDA has 21 offices, seven of which are in North America, three are in Europe and 11 are located in the rest of the world. Our default principle is to co-locate with the embassy or other agencies, where that makes sense. Some 12 of the 21 offices are co-located with other agencies or embassies and nine are stand-alone offices for specific outbound foreign direct investment.

The Deputy asked about the marketing of the island of Ireland, obviously when IDA is marketing Ireland for foreign direct investment it focuses on what the whole of the island offers, the sub-supply base, third level infrastructure and the talent base. The client making a decision to locate in Ireland has a choice of jurisdiction.

Normally we would ask for a break, but I think we will keep going.

I will discipline myself. I apologise but I had other business in the Chamber.

Mr. Shanahan is something of a superstar. I saw him when he appeared on CNBC and I trust our American cousins now know we use the euro. I have to admire his grace during that extraordinarily strange interview. I congratulate both Mr. Shanahan and Ms Sinnamon on their appointments as chief executives.

In his opening remarks Mr. Shanahan said that many aspects of competitiveness have improved over the last number of years. Could he elaborate on that and specify to which elements he was referring?

I would like more detail or scoping from Mr. Shanahan and Ms Sinnamon on the all-Ireland potential. I appreciate there is a level of contact and collaboration so I am not asking about that but about the untapped potential. Could the witnesses express a view, if they have one, on a common corporate tax rate, should that occur in the Northern jurisdiction, and what impact it might have on inward investment?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

On competitiveness, the international rankings that track these matters show that Ireland’s competitiveness is improving year on year. The IMD or World Bank shows us progressing upward. The cost base is probably the most significant element feeding into that because the cost base in the early to mid-2000s was much higher as there was significant competition for resources, human, capital and everything else in the State when we were experiencing a property bubble. Our investment in research feeds into that, creating a talent pool. Labour market indices show we are improving. Our business environment and the ease of doing business are seen as extremely attractive and we improve on that annually. It is one of the main purposes of the action plan for jobs. We are moving up on that sub-index.

Excuse my ignorance but what does Mr. Shanahan mean by “ease of doing business”?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I mean how easy it is to set up a company here, to operate within the State, to get a utility connection, whether gas or electricity, to register a company, to employ people. It is all-encapsulating. Ireland is normally first or second on the indices for ease of doing business. Companies that come here experience a very welcoming environment. They do not find a lot of bureaucracy or unnecessary administrative overhead. They do not find that in Ireland, which does very well in that regard. They all understand that there has to be regulation.

When Mr. Shanahan says the cost base came down very significantly and talks about demand for human resources, I presume he means that wages came down significantly in that period. Is that what he is saying?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

No, that is not particularly what I am saying but is an element of it. The most obvious cost reduction is in property, the demand for and price of property. The cost of property for companies, whether Irish or international, or the rental demands, fell significantly. The unit wage cost has fallen in recent years. That does not necessarily mean that wages have fallen but it could mean they are not increasing relative to other countries. If they are flat here and increase elsewhere we become more competitive. In some cases there were wage reductions and the cost of employment fell over the period.

In other words, Mr. Shanahan would not be marketing this jurisdiction as a low wage economy. He would not regard that as one of the pull factors.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

We could not market Ireland as a low wage economy because there are economies which are much more competitive from a low wage perspective. We market Ireland on the basis of the value added. While our wages are higher we believe, and the evidence shows, that the employees add more value so we do not market Ireland as a low wage economy.

Mr. Shanahan probably knows that some recent Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, OECD, data revealed that this jurisdiction, just after the United States of America, had the highest level of low-paid employment. If the minimum wage were to increase would it make Mr. Shanahan's job more difficult in getting inward investment? In every budgetary cycle when people put forward their proposals there is an automatic assumption that if anything is done to remedy low wages or to make certain changes to the taxation code the automatic consequence would be that foreign direct investment, FDI, would fall off or disappear entirely, depending on who one listens to. If the minimum wage were to ratchet up by €1 or €2 an hour what implications would that have? Ms Sinnamon might comment on that too.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

I said earlier that items that add cost to employment make it more difficult to market FDI. This is a matter of scale. I cannot say what one thing will be the final straw. The detail is difficult. Items that add cost to employment or to employing somebody have a negative impact on investors and potential investment. Increases in wages, minimum or otherwise, of themselves are not a bad thing in the sense that the ambition of all economies and societies is for people to earn more and have a good standard of living but wage movement should be connected to productivity. Where we gain more productivity and the increases are justified that is great. Increases in themselves, not connected to productivity, are problematic because they make us less competitive and make it more difficult to attract FDI. The last time I considered the minimum wage, in my previous position, my recollection is that it impacts approximately 4% of the labour force. It sets a floor for other jobs up to a certain point within the labour market. Movements at that level do have an impact but it is impossible to say what exactly in isolation. It is a question of the overall package.

What about the North and the all-Ireland question?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

To add to what my colleague has already said, from an FDI perspective we are trying to attract FDI to this State but there are many assets available on an all-island basis. There is potential for us to market the island of Ireland in terms of the assets available, the universities, the labour force and so on.

Will that form part of the IDA’s thinking when it puts together its new FDI strategy?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Yes but our primary purpose is to attract FDI to this State.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

The issue of an all-island vision is close to my heart.

I can tell that by Ms Sinnamon’s accent.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

We have an extremely close working relationship with Invest Northern Ireland and Intertrade Ireland.

We would probably meet a couple of times a year, but those are formal meetings where we exchange information. The key interaction happens at the executive level. What we have in the Republic is critical mass in terms of running programmes to develop our companies. In the North, they do not have the group of companies with the critical mass to run the types of programmes that we run. All of our programmes for developing our client base in terms of leadership and management development are open to companies on both sides of the Border. Effectively, at one stage there were small numbers of companies participating. Those numbers have increased significantly and we share all of that information. It is a completely collaborative relationship between the two agencies.

I was saying earlier that, recently, Invest Northern Ireland did tender for a programme and it was granted to Dublin City University, DCU. That probably would not have happened before they started working with us, with the likes of DCU with their programme. There is a high level, and out of those programmes the companies form relationships and do business together.

One of the sectors where the highest growth is happening at present is food. Lakeland made an announcement last week that at least 50% of the milk from Monaghan and Lakeland is coming from north of the Border. The investment we are making in companies here is having a positive impact on the community in Northern Ireland and certainly that is important.

From a research and development perspective, we have been working very successfully and are probably exemplars in Europe on the seventh framework programme, FP7. We are now charged with responsibility for €1.25 billion targets for Horizon 2020. Colleagues here from Enterprise Ireland working on that agenda would be collaborating with Invest Northern Ireland in terms of sharing what we are doing and trying to collaborate cross-Border with a view to doing things together on that side. Again, there is a very open approach to it.

In terms of the international education side, that is an area where there is opportunity for us to do more. Through the UK Trade and Investment, UKTI, Invest Northern Ireland and Enterprise Ireland, EI, engagement, we are constantly working on a number of programmes. We had the Dubai visit last week, which was three groups of companies. The biggest event we run, every two years, is MedinIreland, where we bring in 300 or 400 buyers from overseas into Ireland to look at the very strong cluster of medtech early-stage companies that we have. This year, for the first time, Invest Northern Ireland clients will participate in that in the convention centre with our companies.

There is a very strong positive working relationship between the two sides. We do not see ourselves as competing against them. It is probably in many ways more one-way traffic. There is more to be gained from Northern Ireland collaborating with us. Yesterday, I was in touch with Invest Northern Ireland companies who are trying to access the North and asking them could they use their contacts to get companies here into Northern Ireland to do business. There is a very strong positive view.

On the issue of low wages, it has more impact in some sectors than others. In some of the lower-paid jobs within the food sector, it would be more of a problem than in some of the more high-tech areas where people are paid well beyond the minimum wage. One of the issues we are working on with all our companies - we are working with about 300 companies per annum - is the whole lean agenda, which is about trying to take costs out of the system and be more productive with whatever staff is there, to be able to get better productivity through the companies and be able then to deal with wage rates in that way. The whole lean agenda is very important in terms of addressing that issue.

Could I have a comment from both CEOs on corporate tax? They know there is now the possibility of the corporate tax rate north of the Border ratcheting down and perhaps to harmonise with the level in the South. Does either witness have a view as to whether that is a good idea or a bad idea? Would there positive spin-offs? I am picking the witnesses' brains.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

The whole corporate tax rate is very often seen in the Republic as something for multinationals. It is obviously important to the existing base of Irish companies. The change in the rate in Northern Ireland has less impact on us in that we are not trying to attract foreign direct investment into Ireland, so we are not in that competitive space.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

If the tax rates North and South were equalised, it would obviously change the competitive dynamic in the sense that investors would take that into account as they do many other things when they are deciding which location. I would hasten to add that our competition is not North or South, it is the entire globe. Multinationals have a lot of options in respect of their location.

Of course they do, and that is precisely my point. My view as a republican, as the witnesses will not be surprised to hear, is that the relationships ought to be collaborative and harmonised rather than competitive. It is nuts to have IDA Ireland and Invest NI out state-side or anywhere else competing for the same business. I know that is just the reality of how things may happen now, but that is why I raised the issue of the potential for wins all around. I thank the witnesses for those insights.

On the Enterprise Ireland accounts, communication and IT costs were €2.6 million in 2012 and €2.688 million in 2013. What does that figure cover?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

The IT systems and the telephone systems and all of those costs for the organisation.

Are there once-off costs in there, no?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

There is some capital expenditure in that, obviously for upgrading IT systems within the organisation.

So it runs at that type of money each year?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

I can give the Chair a breakdown of that figure if it would be useful.

Please. There are professional fees in there of €2.3 million, and it was €2.1 million in 2012. What professional fees? What does that cover?

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

That would be legal fees in the main, also financial assessment costs for some complex cases coming before us where we needed to get some outside help to understand it fully. The accounts----

Could we have a breakdown of that?

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

Of course.

Presumably, that all goes through the usual procurement channels.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

Yes, of course.

If you could let us have the type of companies you are dealing with and the value of the contracts, that would be helpful.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

Sure.

Then there are other operating expenses of €912,000 in 2012 and €641,000 in 2013. Could we have a breakdown of those? There is no breakdown here.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Okay.

In November 2014, it was reported that there was an issue - I am repeating what was reported then and I am not using this word myself - in respect of corruption and sexual harassment within the organisation. Enterprise Ireland, I think, asked for it to be investigated. Was that an outside company that investigated that?

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

The investigation is being led by our parent Department, an outside company has been involved and it is still ongoing.

What is the name of that company?

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

Capita is my understanding.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

Capita is the name of the company. I can get further details to the Chair.

You do not know the cost of that yet?

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

No, we do not. Obviously, the other aspects - there were some criminal allegations and the Garda is investigating that.

When are you likely to have a report on all of that?

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

My understanding is fairly shortly in both cases but the investigation is taking place outside the organisation.

You might keep us informed on the progress of that, please.

Mr. Niall O'Donnellan

Of course.

The merger of county enterprise boards, CEBs, and the local enterprise offices was not a great idea, in my opinion anyway. I thought the country enterprise boards were doing just fine and now they are going into county councils where there is not a great record in terms of commercial operations. I hope Enterprise Ireland will keep a close eye on them. Can you tell me the cost of the new arrangement? Was there a cost in terminating the CEBs and then a cost of setting up these local enterprise offices? Will you have direct responsibility for them?

Mr. Tom Hayes

We have a service level agreement with each local authority, as I mentioned earlier.

There is a three-year framework service level agreement that will be reviewed on an annual basis. That is about to be reviewed within the next number of months. The money to the LEOs will flow through Enterprise Ireland - the €30 million or so that will be there.

In terms of the question the Chairman asked about cost, it was actually quite minimal. In fact we would hope to have some savings because obviously there will be the integration with a number of the financial, IT systems and that. Enterprise Ireland did most of the work ourselves - our finance department, our HR people, our legal people and our IT services provided a lot of the supports to help the move from the stand-alone CEBs into the local authorities. By our reckoning, although we need to lock down these figures yet, we could be saving maybe somewhere in the region of €500,000 as a consequence of the move because obviously we will be running the one payroll, the one IT system, etc.

I ask Mr. Hayes to give us information on the CEBs and their leases if they vacated properties. Could he give us a report on the ones that were transferring straight to local authorities? Are they now using council offices? Are they retaining their own offices? What is the cost involved there? Were some of the staff contracts terminated? Just so that we can get a flavour of-----

Mr. Tom Hayes

I can give the Chairman a breakdown. I think there are six still to move and there are genuine reasons that they have not moved as yet. One or two would be in community enterprise centres and they would be an important part in terms of the critical mass of that particular centre or a lease has still to run. However, the vast majority, 25, have moved.

Who will audit the new LEOs?

Mr. Tom Hayes

It will be done by the local authorities.

We will hear very little of that so. I presume that is catered for in legislation. The new LEOs will not be audited by Enterprise Ireland; they will be audited by the local government audit team. Will they then give Enterprise Ireland a report every year?

Mr. Tom Hayes

Yes. In fact we are in the process of finalising how that will operate. There is a meeting on that over the next couple of weeks. There is a lot of system-----

I will give Mr. Hayes my view. Enterprise Ireland needs to ensure it has a clear line of sight on the audit conducted by the local government audit team so that it gets some sort of report on the money Enterprise Ireland has given to these local enterprise offices so that in turn the Comptroller and Auditor General can look at and we can examine it. It is all taxpayers' money.

I have a deep concern about the audit of local government and adding to it. I hear very little public debate about money and I see nothing other than occasional controversies throughout the country about how money was spent and they keep on telling us that is not within our remit. The taxpayer finds that hard to understand. I would hate to see another layer of money being given that cannot be dealt with in terms of audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General or by us. We will be relying heavily on Enterprise Ireland's reporting mechanism from each of those LEOs.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

The money will be going through the EI budget and therefore we will have to be accountable for it. We will be putting systems in place. The Chairman can take it that corporate governance is very much on our agenda in terms of ensuring that everything-----

The Department of Education and Skills gives money to the Higher Education Authority and so on, and it goes out from there. No one seems to trace it after that as accurately as one would like on behalf of the taxpayer. I hope Enterprise Ireland can set a model in place that could be followed by others where there is transparency right down to the spend of the taxpayers' money and that we can have a clear line of sight on that.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Okay.

Mr. Tom Hayes

I can assure the Chairman there is already a very robust system in place in terms of the evaluation. There is an Enterprise Ireland person on every single evaluation committee locally on each LEO. Projects above a certain amount come to a sub-committee of the board of Enterprise Ireland to ensure that the project or the support is policy-driven and driven on the basis of value for money as well. I take the point.

Good. Mr. Hayes should work them hard. The BDM scheme funds the CECs. Is that right?

Mr. Tom Hayes

Well-----

A new scheme is to be introduced and there is much consultation with Enterprise Ireland and the Department. Is that new scheme in place?

Mr. Tom Hayes

There was a scheme. To recap briefly on the CEC scheme, there were four schemes. Some 117 centres have been constructed and built around the country. As I said earlier, they house over 1,000 companies with 6,000 people employed there. Three years ago under the business development manager model, we supported 46 of those in a competitive call with a manager. The evidence suggests that those centres that had a manager performed extremely well. In fact, I have the figures in terms of how they have increased over the past couple of years. Many of those have now run out.

Under the regional enterprise strategy announced yesterday, it is now planned to launch over the next number of months a new programme, which will be a three-pronged programme of which one element will be the business development manager, recognising that they play a key role in helping, assisting and supporting the enterprise centre.

Is that announcement imminent because these BDM contracts were put in place in 2012? The contracts started to run out between 2012 and 2014. Now there is some urgency about this because there is a question mark over performance, future funding and all of that. How soon will they be told?

Mr. Tom Hayes

I would say we have slated it for the month of April or March-April.

Is that when some announcement will be made?

Mr. Tom Hayes

Yes.

A local organisation wrote to me about this and I know that other Members received the same thing.

Mr. Tom Hayes

We are very much in touch on this. This has been the grass roots up. This has been fed back to us from right around the country. Our people are in contact with the managers or in contact with the community enterprise centres right around the country.

I hope they will not be left waiting for too long.

Mr. Tom Hayes

We will not be waiting for too long. It is a very integral part of the announcement made yesterday.

I ask Mr. Shanahan and Ms Sinnamon to come back to us on Taiwan. I forgot to mention the number of students who travel from Taiwan to the UK. It is a huge business. A few of them end up here in Ireland and they are anxious to promote a student exchange between Ireland and Taiwan. In fact arrangements are already in place to allow that to happen. However, given even the spin-off from that, it is important for us to have a share of that market because one is not just sharing the market but sharing an experience of our culture and perhaps a friendship that will serve us in years to come. I would like to think that both organisations would consider a permanent presence in Taipei and that they will come back and let us know what progress has been made. Perhaps they might check out what I have just said about the presence of people from other European countries there without any problem from anyone and doing considerable business. It is hard to drink a Scotch whisky over there when one could have Jameson, but there is none on the market, so I am told - I do not drink.

The disbursement of Enterprise Ireland funds is very important given that local government is outside of the audit of Comptroller and Auditor General. The Chairman made a very good point about having a forensic audit trail for the local authorities. Regarding the €30 million budget, who determines the requirement for an increased allocation in light of the necessity for start-up companies in this very critical area which I feel should be increased?

Who will make the case to local government for an increased allocation in light of the results of the audit?

Mr. Tom Hayes

It is determined by demand. We have responded to demand from a number of counties over the past number of years when they had projects in the pipeline and when they had startups or even modest or small expansion. In those cases we were able to provide additional funding to them.

It is very important with regards to job creation. Could a warranted case be put in for funding based on exceptional need for a project that had a joint MOU?

Mr. Tom Hayes

I can tell the Deputy that the absolute obsession is jobs at the end of the day so if anybody has a project or activity, provided it falls within policy guidelines in terms of financial supports, it certainly will not be left wanting. In fact, under the new strategy now, each of the local authorities will have an opportunity to come forward with innovative ideas they may have in terms of job creation activities, whether it is in terms of building infrastructure locally or providing or further encouraging support to people to start a business. We will put a certain onus back on local authorities and the supports will be there then in return to help them to fund those businesses.

Deputy Ross raised a point about taxation and corporation tax, but what is the GDP benefit of IDA and Enterprise Ireland companies to the Irish economy?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

The spend in the local economy from Enterprise Ireland clients exceeds €20 billion per annum.

Is that in the Irish economy?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Yes, the Irish economy.

What would it be for the IDA?

Mr. Martin Shanahan

So in terms of spend in the Irish economy it is €22 billion, of which about €8.5 billion is wages and in addition there are exports from IDA client companies in the order of €126 billion.

So really the corporation tax is only one very small element of the income.

Mr. Martin Shanahan

Some 66% of corporation tax comes from IDA client companies but the overall impact is much greater because there is also the impact on employment.

I congratulate Frank Ryan on his appointment as chair of the IDA. I am aware of his extraordinary record in Enterprise Ireland. We are fortunate that he is available to serve as chairman of the IDA. I believe he will do very well.

Thank you, Ms Sinnamon and Mr. Shanahan, and all of your officials for coming here today. We had a good exchange. Do the members of the PAC agree to dispose of the 2013 financial statements of both the IDA and Enterprise Ireland? Agreed.

I also put members on notice about information that I have received which I intend to pass to the clerk because it concerns on one side very disturbing allegations of sexual abuse over 20 years and, on the other, of relevance to this committee, the significant ongoing costs relating to the investigation of those complaints. I will ask the clerk to review the file and determine what needs to be done with it. From a cost point of view the PAC will deal with that in due course.

The witnesses withdrew.
The committee adjourned at 2.25 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 26 February 2015.
Barr
Roinn