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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 9 Jul 2015

Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú (Secretary General, Department of Education and Skills) called and examined.

I remind members, witnesses and people in the Visitors Gallery to ensure their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting as they interfere with the sound quality and transmission of the meeting. I advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in regard to a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter to only a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House nor an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 163 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills, and invite him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

I am accompanied by Mr. Martin Hanevy, assistant secretary general with responsibility for the schools division, Ms Jill Fannin, assistant principal officer at the education and training board financial and administrative section, and Ms Marian Carr, assistant principal officer at the further education and training section.

I invite the official from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to introduce himself.

Mr. John Burke

My name is John Burke.

Mr. Ted Owens

I am accompanied by Ms Suzanne Mullins, assistant principal officer at Cork Education and Training Board.

I thank the witnesses. I invite Mr. McCarthy to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

County Cork Vocational Education Committee had annual expenditure of around €100 million and was responsible for a range of educational and training facilities. As the committee will be aware, County Cork VEC was dissolved with effect from 1 July 2013 and its functions transferred to Cork Education and Training Board. This committee received a large volume of correspondence over an extended period setting out a range of complaints and allegations about the operations of County Cork VEC, some with reference to incidents dating back to 2000. These included allegations about the operation of the Youthreach programme in Macroom and a range of legal disputes between the VEC and its employees. The audit of the financial statements of County Cork VEC for the 2011 and 2012 years of account were extended to examine the various alleged control weaknesses and financial losses. The focus of the additional work was primarily on establishing whether any of the alleged control weaknesses were evident in the operation of County Cork VEC in 2011 and 2012 and, if so, whether the VEC had suffered financial losses as a result.

Youthreach is a national programme of second-chance education and training directed primarily at unemployed early school leavers aged 15 to 20. County Cork VEC operated seven Youthreach centres. One of the centres, Macroom Youthreach, had an approved allocation for 30 students. While the Department of Education and Skills had specified eligibility criteria for Youthreach applicants, local co-ordinators had discretion to allow individuals who did not satisfy the normal criteria to participate in the programme. In such cases, the applicants’ files should clearly document the reason for their inclusion on the programme.

Between 2007 and 2012, payments totalling €114,000 were made to eight students participating in Macroom Youthreach who were subsequently deemed by the VEC to have been ineligible. Examination of the files of the eight students found a lack of documentary evidence for the reasons for their inclusion on the programme.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Although there were some residual control weaknesses and one case where a student continued on Youthreach until determined to be ineligible in 2012, we found that the controls over assessment of eligibility had generally operated as intended at Macroom Youthreach centre in the academic year 2011-12. We found no evidence of the weaknesses that had occurred in Macroom being replicated at other Youthreach centres when further samples of files were examined as part of the audit of County Cork VEC or other VECs. Nevertheless, I have recommended that the Department should review its guidelines in relation to Youthreach to clarify the limits of discretion available to co-ordinators to admit students to the programme on an exceptional basis, and how such exercise of discretion should be documented.

An internal audit report by the Vocational Support Services Unit, VSSU, completed in August 2010 identified a number of weaknesses regarding payments to staff at the Macroom Youthreach centre. It was estimated that the VEC paid for 1,070 tuition hours in the academic year 2009-10, estimated to cost €60,000, where teachers were not timetabled to teach. The VEC had also paid part-time teachers for an additional 500 non-teaching hours used for administrative work associated with the centre at an estimated cost of approximately €25,000 for the academic year 2009-10. Payments were made to two part-time staff without deduction of PAYE and PRSI. In addition, it appeared that two individuals in receipt of a student allowance were not attending training but were in fact employed to provide English language tuition. The audit of County Cork VEC's financial statements for 2011 and 2012 examined payments to staff, including in Macroom Youthreach, and no continuing issues of concern were noted.

The Vocational Educational Act 1930 requires a VEC to obtain sanction from the Minister prior to entering a lease. In 2012, an internal audit in the VEC raised concerns about two leases entered into without obtaining the required sanction and recommended that the VEC conduct a review. This identified six further leases where sanction had not been obtained as required. The position in relation to seven leased buildings has now been regularised by way of retrospective sanction granted by the Department between November 2012 and May 2014.

One of the unsanctioned leases related to a 15-year lease agreement for a building in Mallow entered into in 1996, with an option to purchase the building in 2011, at the end of the lease, for a nominal sum. When it was applying for grant funding of €1 million towards the construction cost of a crèche in the building in 2008, the VEC entered into a revised lease agreement. Grants for crèche facilities would not have been payable for investment in a building on a short lease. As a result, the term of the lease was extended to 2031, and the VEC became legally committed to additional lease payments of €431,700 as a result. Subsequently, further revised arrangements provided for the cessation of lease payments with effect from 1 January 2012 and the transfer of ownership of the building for a nominal sum, as provided for in the original lease. This removed the obligation on the VEC to make the extended lease payments.

In 2010, the VEC also entered into a 99-year lease, committing itself to costs of €20,000 a year over the term of the lease in the form of four annual scholarships. In return, the VEC secured the use of a site with an area of 0.9 ha adjacent to a marine outdoor education centre in Schull. No analysis was undertaken to compare the projected cost of the scholarships with the likely benefits. The lease arrangement was terminated in August 2013 by mutual agreement with the landowner. The incurred cost of the scholarships amounted to a total of €40,000, and the VEC had the use of the site for four years.

A number of other issues were also identified in relation to County Cork VEC. Between 2010 and 2013, legal settlements amounting to €111,600 were made by the VEC from its own funds. The VEC’s insurers made further settlements, amounting to €95,000, in respect of 23 cases and incurred legal costs of €120,000. In addition, legal costs incurred by the VEC amounted to €442,200 for the four years 2010 to 2013, significantly above the VEC sector average. A further case was settled by the ETB in 2014 and included compensation of €10,000 and arrears of salary for 11 years amounting to €168,000.

In 2002, the VEC accepted a gift of a boat called the Omar B and used it as part of a sailing training programme. The boat has been in dry dock storage since 2007, at a total cost of €10,700.

The VEC had a long-standing arrangement with a voluntary body providing services to people with disability whereby the VEC provided funding in lieu of teaching hours. The arrangement was in breach of departmental guidelines in relation to the operation of such arrangements. The funding provided was based on a specified number of training hours using VEC pay rates for an unqualified part-time teacher whereas the actual pay rates in operation in the voluntary organisation were significantly lower. The grant to the voluntary body in 2011 was just under €93,500. The Vocational Support Services Unit, VSSU, estimated that, if funding had been provided based on the cost of the teaching delivered, as required by the Department’s guidelines, the grant would have been lower by €49,000.

Finally, a tax audit of County Cork VEC by the Revenue Commissioners resulted in a settlement of €115,700 in June 2013. The settlement included a number of tax categories and related to tax periods as far back as 2003.

Some of the control issues outlined in correspondence about County Cork VEC were present in 2011 and 2012, while other matters had been corrected. The ETB has since taken action to regularise transactions or to terminate arrangements in order to address the remaining issues. The audit of the final financial statement of the VEC for the period to the end of June 2013 has been completed and no significant ongoing control lapses were identified.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

I thank the Chairman for allowing me to make this opening statement concerning the Comptroller and Auditor General’s special report on internal control in County Cork VEC. The education and training board sector has undergone unprecedented change in recent years. In 2013, the Education and Training Boards Act established 16 ETBs and the 33 vocational education committees were dissolved. As well as the establishment of the ETBs, major changes have also taken place in the co-ordination and funding of further education and training with the establishment of SOLAS in October 2013. Change is ongoing and will take a number of years to embed. The new ETBs continue to develop as single entities, adapting organisational structures and practices accordingly and developing their response to their new responsibility for training. While County Cork VEC has been dissolved, its functions were transferred to Cork ETB from 1 July 2013.

The Department welcomes the Comptroller and Auditor General’s special report on internal control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee. The report sets out what happened in relation to a number of failures of internal control and failures to follow proper procedures. The report also indicates that various concerns are either not apparent on examination of more recent accounts, the position has been regularised or actions have been taken to address the relevant issues. The issues in County Cork began to be brought to the attention of the Department by the then acting chief executive of the VEC in early 2011. The Department immediately began engaging with the VEC on the issues. The VEC kept the Department informed of developments at all stages and this engagement continued throughout the period of transition to the new ETB structure and the succession of the current chief executive in 2013.

The Department had concerns regarding both the overall range of issues coming to light and the individual issues. In carrying out their duties, all public servants, those involved in frontline delivery and those with management and oversight roles, must place a high priority on adherence to regulated procedures and to financial and governance accountability, as appropriate. While the Department was aware that the VEC was taking steps to identify the problems and, most importantly, to address them, it would have been preferred at times if this happened more quickly, even acknowledging that procedures must be followed carefully and can take some time to work through.

The details of the ETB’s response to the issues are more appropriate for Mr. Owens to outline. However, the Department’s view is that the VEC-ETB’s management response to the issues has, ultimately, been comprehensive.

The Department's understanding is that the resolution of matters has been achieved to the extent possible at this time and the Department will continue to work with Cork Education and Training Board, ETB, as necessary.

While there is only one specific recommendation in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report for the Department, which has been acted on, the scope of the report points to a need to ensure that robust governance and internal control mechanisms are in place in the ETB sector and beyond. The committee is aware that the Department has been actively strengthening its role in terms of governance and accountability oversight of institutions and bodies across the education sector. This process is ongoing and is an area to which we are strongly committed. The briefing document provided to the committee outlines some of the measures taken to emphasise and improve governance and reporting requirements in the ETB area in particular. These encompass: legislative change relating to the establishment of ETBs and SOLAS; the issuing of a range of departmental regulations that cover areas such as procurement, tax compliance, borrowing and reporting of losses; a revised code of practice for the sector that sets out clearly a framework for codes of conduct for board and staff members, financial controls in terms of risk management, the internal audit function, audit and finance committees and oversight and reporting requirements; revised terms of reference and steering structures relating to the internal audit service for ETBs; and a more cohesive approach to governance across the education sector that includes enhanced networking with key players involved in governance, audit and oversight.

I will be happy to address these in more detail as well as other queries that the committee might have.

I thank Mr. Ó Foghlú.

Mr. Ted Owens

Cork ETB welcomes the special report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on internal control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee 2011. Since its establishment in July 2013, Cork ETB has taken over the functions and operations of County Cork VEC, City of Cork VEC and FÁS. Cork ETB is a new organisation with responsibility for the organisation of a wide range of education and training services in Cork. It is responsible for all assets and liabilities of County Cork VEC.

The report highlights a number of serious control weaknesses and breaches in procedure in County Cork VEC's operations. Significant control weaknesses were identified in terms of student enrolment practices and payments to students and staff in Youthreach Macroom. Procedures were not followed when lease agreements were entered into. The statutory obligation to seek prior ministerial approval for these leases was not fulfilled. The report also refers to high legal costs and settlements between 2010 and 2013 and weaknesses that led to a Revenue audit and a significant tax settlement. The Comptroller and Auditor General found that the departmental guidelines were not followed in the allocation of co-operation hours to the St. Joseph’s Foundation and the costs incurred in connection with the Omar B sail training programme were also criticised.

As chief executive of Cork ETB, I am committed to ensuring that this new organisation delivers education and training in the Cork region in a compliant, efficient and competent manner. Cork ETB believes it is important to acknowledge that mistakes were made, rules were not adhered to and proper procedures were not followed in County Cork VEC. Lessons have been learned and action has been taken on the issues highlighted in the report. For example, Cork ETB has implemented new procedures for all Youthreach centres, has regularised the position in respect of the leases, has a new service-level agreement in place for the allocation and utilisation of co-operation hours, was one of the first ETBs to undertake a tendering process for legal services and understands that it must be fully compliant with all tax regulations. Stricter controls have been put in place to ensure that all tax regulations are complied with.

In the past two years, Cork ETB has thoroughly reviewed each of these issues and put systems in place to ensure the efficient, effective and compliant use of public funds. Cork ETB takes responsibility for addressing these failings and continues to strive to ensure that they do not happen in the new organisation. As chief executive, I assure the committee of my sincere commitment and that of my board members to maintaining the highest standards of performance and corporate governance in Cork ETB in the future.

I thank Mr. Owens. May we publish Mr. Ó Foghlú and Mr. Owens's statements?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

Yes.

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes.

I welcome the Secretary General, Mr. Owens and their officials to this meeting. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report lists nine main issues: ineligible students paid to participate in Youthreach; leases entered into without the requisite ministerial sanction; significant sums spent on legal fees; numerous complaints from teachers and others to the Committee of Public Accounts; the money lost by the VEC on a boat; how the VEC did not follow guidelines on granting early retirement; teachers being paid when they were not timetabled; staff payments not being subject to PAYE or PRSI; and the VEC's need to make a large tax settlement. This is a major indictment of bad management.

Since Mr. Owens took over the running of part of what was County Cork VEC following its amalgamation with the City of Cork VEC, one of many that occurred across the country, what he has found and what the Comptroller and Auditor General has reported to us is not what one would expect of a VEC. How many schools operate in County Cork? Will Mr. Owens comment on the anomalies that he has found in the VEC? Were they found in any other facility?

Mr. Ted Owens

In terms of the eligibility of students, we have admitted that there were control weaknesses. We have put that matter right. We agree that ministerial approval was needed for leases on property. We have regularised that situation. As to legal costs, we were one of the first ETBs to tender for legal services and we have a good commercial service in operation. Regarding the Omar B, there are no storage costs at this stage and the Omar B is not costing the ETB any longer.

As to Revenue settlements, we have tried everything to ensure that we are fully tax compliant. We have provided training for staff and reviewed our controls and procedures. I am confident that Cork ETB has taken steps to address the issues that were highlighted in the report.

What is the student base in the ETB's network?

Mr. Ted Owens

We have approximately 50,000 students in total. We have approximately 15,000 full-time post-primary students and 5,000 full-time post-leaving certificate students, with the remainder of the student population comprising people undertaking full-time courses in our training centre and under local training initiatives, what would formerly have been FÁS operations, and students involved in community education and adult literacy programmes. Besides further education and training and post-primary, we now have responsibility for some primary schools. Of our 50,000 students, approximately half are full-time students.

I have a question for the Secretary General, who had overall responsibility for the VEC sector. Did the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General come as a surprise to the Department, particularly the level of correspondence to this committee complaining about the VEC? This issue had been flagged as far back as 2000.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

We were not surprised by the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, but that is because the majority of the issues were already, if not in the public domain, then a matter of dialogue between us and what is now the ETB. However, we were surprised by the range of issues when they were brought to our attention. Their scale and the fact that they crossed various areas of VEC activity were of most concern.

Did the Department discuss these concerns with the two previous chief executive officers of County Cork Vocational Education Committee, Mr. O'Brien and Ms Russell, who were constantly fire-fighting, especially on the industrial relations front, including in court? Did the Department at any stage tell these officials to get their house in order?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

Both of the former CEOs of the VEC would have drawn some matters to our attention as we went along. The major issue identified in the report relates to the Macroom Youth Centre and it was the chief executive officer of Cork Vocational Education Committee, Ms Russell, who drew that to our attention initially. However, it was only when an internal audit report was put into the public domain as a result of correspondence sent to the Committee of Public Accounts and others that we saw the scale of the issues. We then sought to follow up on the range of those issues with the VEC.

Mr. Owens inherited a number of legacy issues, including court cases. I note the VEC is tendering for legal services. When one considers the scale of the legal fees paid, what is the position in this regard? Has Mr. Owens had an opportunity to deal with these inherited issues and, if so, how did he approach the issues of litigation, tax settlements and so forth? I will not go through the figures as the Comptroller and Auditor General highlighted the astronomical fees that were paid. How did the cases develop to the point that such a large retainer was paid to the legal firm in question?

Mr. Ted Owens

As I stated, we have tendered for legal services and we hope this will bring about a better commercial outcome. However, what I did when I was appointed was review the cases and engage with people, including people at the rights commissioner, Labour Court, High Court and Supreme Court levels. I engaged and met people because I believe that fresh perspective can help in these cases and I am glad to say that these cases have now been resolved to everybody's satisfaction. The legal costs and settlements, as the Deputy noted, were high and approximately 71% of the costs over that period were incurred in defending employment related cases. I am a great believer in trying to ensure that these cases do not go to court and I have tried to instil that culture in our human resources department. I am also a great believer in trying to use the State resolution measures to try to ensure disputes do not end up in costly litigation.

From reading the file, the level of litigation indicates the VEC was not a happy camp in which to work. The contentious human resource issues these cases raised and to which Mr. Owens referred suggest that not only was there a lack of controls in place in the VEC but there was little harmony in the system.

Mr. Ted Owens

County Cork VEC had approximately 2,400 employees over the period in question. It would be true to say that there were a very small number of cases but they were protracted and difficult and led to substantial legal costs.

Will the Secretary General respond from the point of view of what the Department has learned in respect of the reconfiguration of the vocational education committees? Does Mr. Ó Foghlú believe the level of observation, due diligence and controls, apart from the role of the Comptroller and Auditor General, will prevent circumstances similar to those that occurred in County Cork Vocational Education Committee from arising again? The role of taxpayers' money and the fact that this issue relates to the education of young people and students on the back-to-education scheme and Youthreach programmes means this is a major responsibility. The negative publicity surrounding this issue has certainly damaged Youthreach. Ineligible students benefitted from this scheme, which is beneficial in certain areas. Is the practice identified occurring anywhere else?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

We have learned a great deal from much of the analysis and the dialogue we had with the VEC. I refer to the issues that emerged in the public domain, the discussions of the Committee of Public Accounts on this matter and in recent years on other issues that arose in former vocational education committees and the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Arising from that, we have put in place a range of departmental regulations to cover areas such as procurement, tax compliance, borrowing and reporting. This ensures we issue regulations to the sector.

Furthermore and very importantly, a revised code of practice has been drawn up for the sector. The code has a number of different aspects, including a framework for codes of conduct for board and staff members, financial controls in terms of risk management, new arrangements for the internal audit function which differ significantly from previous arrangements, arrangements for audit and finance committees and general oversight and reporting requirements. We had a detailed engagement with the sector as a whole on developing this.

In terms of the specific issue of Youthreach, we updated our guidelines, having regard to what we have learned, and we have ensured that all vocational education committees, now known as education and training boards, are aware of the requirements in place for Youthreach programmes.

On the terms of contract for the employment of teachers and ancillary staff, is there a formal contract of engagement in place for new teachers? Is a timeframe in place with regard to the employment of teachers in the vocational education committees? How are terms and conditions, contract hours and timetables dealt with now?

Mr. Ted Owens

The Deputy is probably referring specifically to Youthreach in this case.

In general terms, how are contracts managed for teaching staff in respect of hours, timetables and salaries?

Mr. Ted Owens

There has never have been a problem in the second level sector in terms of contracting. All our teachers are contracted as per Department of Education and Skills regulation. This has never been an issue at post-primary level. It is true that an issue arose in Youthreach Macroom. When I inquired of the former executive of the County Cork VEC what had happened in that particular case where hours in excess of timetabled hours were worked, the co-ordinator responded that part-time teachers in Macroom were paid for attendance at staff meetings, substitution and attendance at in-service courses. This should not have happened. Once this was identified, Cork Education and Training Board and County Cork Vocational Education Committee ensured that the payment to teachers is reconciled to the timetables and made only for pre-approved hours. The co-ordinator submits these hours before the start of the year and our finance department will pay only for the pre-approved contracted hours.

I accept that Mr. Owens has only recently assumed the role of chief executive officer and I wish him well in his new role. It is very important, however, that these matters be discussed in light of the report produced by the Comptroller and Auditor General. I note that correspondence members received today is very critical of the former chief executives of County Cork VEC. While they may not have been entirely to blame, does Mr. Owens accept that their actions made the resolution of problems at the VEC much more difficult?

Mr. Ted Owens

As I stated, the former chief executive officers were faced with some difficult cases and dealt with those cases as they saw fit. I may have brought a fresh perspective to these particular instances. To ensure that legal costs did not continue to rise, I sought to bring about a resolution of these cases. I do not believe there are any major outstanding cases of staff dissatisfaction, cases for retrospective payments or human resources issues. While there will always be human resource issues in an organisation which has 3,800 employees, I believe, to use the words of the Deputy, we have a happy camp in Cork Education and Training Board.

There was a case involving the early retirement of a teacher based on a general practitioner's letter.

An investigator had been appointed to look into the case but once the teacher retired, the investigator was taken off the case.

Mr. Ted Owens

The retirement of the co-ordinator on grounds of ill-health was approved on the basis of a letter from the co-ordinator's GP. I acknowledge that best practice would be to use an independent medical assessor, and the Department has issued guidelines to that effect. The retirement was sanctioned by the acting CEO while the investigation was pending. Perhaps that is not best practice but the files indicate that the acting CEO acted legal advice as to the best course of action. The investigator interviewed all of the parties concerned except the co-ordinator, who went out on ill-health grounds and did not engage with the investigator. A decision had to be made on whether to bring the investigation to a halt, and it was eventually brought to a halt.

It had already cost €26,300. When did the investigation take place?

Mr. Ted Owens

It took place in 2011.

Were the investigator's initial findings brought to the attention of the Secretary General?

Mr. Ted Owens

The CEO at the time was concerned about the operations of Macroom Youthreach and therefore engaged an independent investigator and asked the internal audit unit to examine the case. The investigation continued over a period. A final report as such was not prepared but the CEO was presented with the documentary evidence gathered by the investigator. It was decided to call a halt, however, because the investigation was not going anywhere.

What happened to that document?

Mr. Ted Owens

The documents are in the possession of the VEC, which is now the education and training board. A final report was not prepared and all I can say is that in the new organisation all applications for retirement on ill-health grounds are dealt with in accordance with departmental guidelines.

Having received €26,500, the investigator's initial report must have been a substantial document and could have been of value to the Secretary General.

Mr. Ted Owens

I am not sure whether it was forwarded to the Secretary General at that stage. All I know is that a formal report was not prepared.

With regard to payments to students, €114,000 was paid to 28 students, of which €34,000 pertained to retained students. Why did the VEC retain the students until 2012 given that the internal audit report completed in 2010 raised questions about the students' eligibility? The length of time for which they were retained was up to 20%, whereas the national average is 3%.

Mr. Ted Owens

The students in Macroom were deemed ineligible not so much because they were not from the cohort of socially disadvantaged young people the programme sought to reach but because it was found in the investigation that the documentary evidence needed to justify their presence was not available. In some cases dates of birth and proofs of nationality were missing. Efforts were made to gather that information but the students were eventually let go. One student was retained for a considerably longer period. This student was from one of the EU accession states and the VEC was trying to investigate his eligibility. All I can say is that Cork ETB now has strict controls over enrolment policy to ensure that only bona fide students who can satisfy the requirements are enrolled on programmes.

What is the current percentage of students participating in Youthreach programmes for more than three years?

Mr. Ted Owens

I recently conducted a review which found that the figure is 9%, which is higher than the national average. We have introduced new guidelines and I have issued a directive that any student who wishes to remain on the programme for longer than two years requires my approval.

Has the Department reviewed its guidelines to clarify the limits on discretion?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

Many of the issues we are now discussing were identified in the internal auditor's report. That report was provided to us at the same time that it was provided to this committee and put into the public domain. It was an effective piece of work in terms of identifying the shortcomings in the organisation. The report was initially requested by the management of the VEC.

The Deputy asked Mr. Owens about two matters in particular, namely, the early retirement and the eligible learners. At the time when the early retirement occurred, the Department had set out procedures for teachers and special needs assistants employed in VECs but not for the other categories of staff. The VEC acted in the context of our guidelines and procedures but once we learned about the matter we immediately set out the procedures for other staff. The staff member who retired was not a teacher. In our comprehensive update of the Youthreach guidelines, we have addressed many of the issues discussed today, including the way in which Youthreach is managed, funded and staffed, as well as the recruitment and retention of learners and eligibility of non-EU nationals. We have put in place detailed requirements in respect of each of these areas.

Is Mr. Owens satisfied that all leases currently in place were appropriately sanctioned? Are any leased properties currently vacant or are there long-term leases which do not offer a return?

Mr. Ted Owens

A review was undertaken following the initial internal audit and retrospective sanction was obtained for the leases identified in the report. County Cork VEC initially examined its main centres of operation, which included Youthreach. We now have a register of all properties occupied by Cork ETB for the delivery of our services in order to ensure the assets are managed in a professional, co-ordinated and efficient manner which provides maximum value for money. We are trying to comply with the new property asset management delivery plan for better management of public property under the Government's public service reform programme. We have put in place stricter controls regarding the renting and leasing of facilities to ensure compliance with the Act. We currently occupy 137 properties from which we deliver our services. We own 81 of these properties and the remaining 56 are held under various lease agreements, including licences and even agreements to rent a local hall for two hours per week. We have notified the Department about every property we use and we are awaiting sanction for some of these properties.

Was it not highly embarrassing for the Department that it had to pay a tax settlement of €115,700?

That included €95,000, interest of €10,000 and penalties of €9,500. It covered a number of tax categories dating as far back as 2003. The amount of €86,000 was repaid to Revenue in January 2013 and the balance was repaid in June 2013. Has a Revenue audit been conducted since? Does that relate to PAYE and PRSI? Obviously, it is not VAT.

Mr. Ted Owens

It is everything; it is VAT, PAYE and PRSI - all Revenue settlements.

Are PAYE and PRSI not deducted at source from teachers' salaries? How could this have been done when those deductions are made through an automated system?

Mr. Ted Owens

What happened in Youthreach Macroom was that a small number of part-time teachers were not paid centrally like everybody else, which the Deputy pointed out. Obviously, there are systems in place and we would expect to be fully compliant in those particular areas. There was a breakdown of procedure in Macroom which resulted in some staff being paid from locally held bank accounts.

On the bank accounts, which was my next question, who funded those bank accounts?

Mr. Ted Owens

Regarding what happened in those particular instances, there are 22 schools in County Cork VEC and seven Youthreach centres. There are 29 various centres, some of those schools and Youthreach centres would have held local bank accounts. If teachers were collecting money for a trip abroad, for school books or uniforms, in some instances, there would have been locally held bank accounts. We have now done a review of all our centres and we are in the process of trying to ensure that there are not any locally held bank accounts. We are trying to close them down and we are encouraging people to make sure that all payments are made from head office and head office only. Some of that tax settlement would have resulted from locally held bank accounts where they paid referees.

In regard to the bank reconciliations of all these accounts and having regard to the volume of schools, who is the credit controller? Has the education and training board in the county a credit controller?

Mr. Ted Owens

We would have a credit controller. Our finance officer and our finance staff would be the credit controllers. The schools which had locally held bank accounts would also have had to report to their boards of management in those particular instances. The Department is anxious to ensure that no accounts of any sort are held at local level. We have issued instructions to that effect. For example, even if a school collects €4,000 or €5,00 for a trip to Spain or Italy, that money must be banked centrally, coded separately and paid out of that account. We are also introducing an electronic payment system in all our schools and centres. We are trying to cut out dealings in cash entirely.

Is there a petty cash box in most schools?

Mr. Ted Owens

We are trying to cut out the whole petty cash element. Some schools will say that there is always a need for some level of petty cash but we are introducing electronic payments systems for all payments in an effort to try to control even what happens at school level, so the level of petty cash given to schools is minimal.

How is the issue of procurement for the centres in the county dealt with? I refer to procurement of services for the education and training board's student population and staff, whether it be for catering facilities or the supply of materials for Youthreach programmes. How are they managed?

Mr. Ted Owens

That would be managed centrally. All payments must be done centrally. We have an electronic system. In all our schools and colleges, apart from small items, as the Deputy mentioned - for example, going out to the local shop to buy X, Y or Z - everything is done by electronic payment. We have an electronic payments system; no cheques are used in any of our schools and centres. Everything is done from head office. All payments and all procurement must go through head office. There are very tight guidelines in place to ensure that there is proper authorisation at various levels. All payments in Cork ETB are done centrally and by electronic means.

Where is the Omar B now?

Mr. Ted Owens

The boat is no longer in dry dock. It has been moved from dry dock and is at a marine berth in Baltimore Harbour.

Who owns it now?

Mr. Ted Owens

Cork ETB now owns the boat. It was donated many years ago.

It was an expensive boat.

Mr. Ted Owens

It was an expensive boat. It was given to us by a generous donor at the time. When the boat was received by Cork VEC a due diligence exercise was initially carried out and it put a group in place to consider whether it would be of use to the VEC. It was used for four years or more for the purpose for which it was given. However, boats can be expensive to maintain. That boat had a very strict safety and passenger licence. It was licensed to carry up to 12 passengers up to 12 miles offshore. I do not think that is necessary any more. We hope to use the boat.

We do a lot in this area in west Coast. We can forget sail training, because that will not be done unless everything can be put in place, but we hope to use the boat for boat maintenance repair courses we run. In the past FÁS ran some of those courses as did the VEC. We can use the boat for teaching deck handling skills. I can assure the Deputy that the boat will not cost a substantial amount of money. A cost of €150,000 was mentioned to put it right. That boat is an iconic vessel and there is awful lot of goodwill towards it. Between voluntary labour and donations from various groups, that boat might well sail again but not in the immediate future. As to putting it back in the water, we have been stringent on funding and we spent €2,500 to put it in the water. That is the type of money that was being paid to keep it in dry storage.

In 2008, it was stated it would take €150,000 to make it seaworthy.

Mr. Ted Owens

An independent assessment was done by a marine assessor who indicated that if that boat was to get the P6 passenger licence and to travel offshore, it would cost up to €150,000. There is no way that I would spend that kind of money on the boat but some work has been carried out on it. The boat will not go to sea. That kind of money will not be expended on it. In terms of any moneys that would be expended, I would be seeking prior approval from the Department. The boat is being used as a floating classroom. That is the plan for the moment as well as for the type of activity that I spoke about in terms boat maintenance and seafaring skills. Those are the types of activities that the VEC did, or the ETB now does, in west Cork.

I come from a coastal area and the population base is interested in training in managing seaworthy vessels and equally in improving such skills and education. The history of this boat is that it has been quite a while in dry dock. It needs a plan of action as, regrettably, it is not being utilised now and it is of benefit to nobody.

Mr. Ted Owens

That is a very important point - a plan of action is needed. As I said, with minimum expenditure that boat could be put back in the water. The easiest thing for me to say would be that we are going to scrap the boat. We were given the boat, which is an extremely valuable possession. I have no intention of spending big money on it, but it can be used for the type of activities that I have described.

I thank Mr. Owens.

I call Deputy Deasy.

I welcome Mr. Ó Foghlú, his officials and everyone else. I have a few separate questions.

The first concerns the Residential Institutions Redress Act and the current position on the properties that were promised to be handed over by the State. As of February of this year, I believe 44 properties were transferred. I think Mr. Ó Foghlú commented that there were 17 others that were actively being dealt with. Could he give us an idea very quickly as to where we are at?

It is not really related.

I understand that.

Mr. Ó Foghlú may give a brief reply only.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

I do not have the details.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

We can write to the committee with an update. I do not have the details with me. We have advanced our discussions significantly with the CSSO but I do not have the precise number in terms of updates, transfers and so on.

Have any other properties of which Mr. Ó Foghlú is aware been transferred since the start of the year?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

I am not aware of the detail on it because I do not have the briefing with me. We can write to update the committee.

That is fine. I just thought Mr. Ó Foghlú might have had the detail. He will probably know the answer to my second question. I mentioned earlier the potential amalgamation of the technological universities. We had spoken about this prior to the witnesses coming into the committee rooms. The publicised cost, between Dublin, Munster and the south east, has come to about €3 million. I refer to the costs of professional fees and pay associated with these processes. We have planned to ask Mr. Kelly to attend. There probably will be a time lag over the summer to allow the report to be issued. Basically, he will appear before the committee, potentially with the presidents of the Waterford Institute of Technology and Carlow Institute of Technology.

I know why there were some delays even though this was promised to be finalised in April of this year. It is now almost the middle of July. I know the Minister has the report but can Mr. Ó Foghlú give us some kind of timeline for the coming weeks? The delay has become an issue; that is the way I would put it to the witnesses considering what is resting on this.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

I am aware of the updated position on that. When I was here four weeks ago, the Deputy asked me a similar question. The issue has progressed. Since then, Mr. Kelly has completed his dialogue with the two institutions. He submitted a report to the Minister and, indeed, met and briefed her. This Minister's plan is now to consult her Cabinet colleges. Following that, she plans to meet the presidents and chairmen on the two institutions together. Following that, she would like to publish the report. Her plan is to do all of that in the next couple of weeks. Following the publication of the report, we will be able to talk about the plans for the next steps and so on. Until she has had the opportunity to have the dialogue with her Cabinet colleagues, I cannot talk in any detail about those. I am due back here in September with colleagues from the Higher Education Authority for the hearing we were possibly due to have today. There will be an opportunity at that higher education meeting to talk about the progress. I am not sure about Mr. Kelly's precise availability but I know he is on leave for the summer. I hope he will be available for that.

I want to go back to the agenda and the special report but Deputy Deasy has raised an issue concerning the next meeting we will have with the Department and the Higher Education Authority. Earlier in this meeting, we decided we would ask in the presidents of the various colleges concerned along with representatives from the Higher Education Authority and the Department. I want to make particular reference to Carlow Institute of Technology and the fact that we received quite a significant amount of redacted material from the Department and an answer to a parliamentary question I asked on 7 July that I find totally unsatisfactory. However, I intend to deal with that at the public hearing we have planned when all the players are before us, especially the presidents, Mr. Ó Foghlú and the HEA.

During today's meeting, we heard two opening statements, from Mr. Ó Foghlú and Mr. Owens. They reassure us about the future or about the period from now into the future. I was taken aback by the fact that neither one dealt in any detail with the past and the horrendous lack of governance in the VEC over a long period under the eye of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department of Education and Skills. I find it shocking, given the number of lives and families that have been destroyed by some of the actions taken by individuals who were involved in some of the controversies in the VEC over those years, that no reference was made to them. I would like to start from there.

The witness referred to the future system as being a well-organised, well-policed, regulated system. The past must have been the Wild West from what I can read, and there must have been a complete absence on the part of the two Departments that oversee or should have been overseeing the sector comprising the VECs.

Is it correct that the nameplate on the door was changed from VEC to ETB?

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes

Can Mr. Owens tell me what changes have taken place in relation to those who serve on the boards locally?

Mr. Ted Owens

In terms of those who serve on the board locally-----

Current boards by comparison with the VECs.

Mr. Ted Owens

I suppose there has not been a huge change.

They are all the same.

Mr. Ted Owens

There are slight changes.

Let me put it a different way. There is no major change. I see the names on these committees and the names that were on the committees. For me, the only thing that has changed is the title "VEC", which has been changed to "ETB". If those who were central to all of this ignored every letter from the Department, every muttering from within the system during these years of the Wild West, how can Mr. Owens expect them to change overnight the culture that they had all grown used to?

Mr. Ted Owens

The Chairman is correct when he says the composition of the board has not changed greatly on Cork ETB. There are eight county councillors, four city councillors, two staff members, two parent members and five people from various interest groups, such as business, learners-----

We know all that.

Mr. Ted Owens

That is the ETB itself. What the Department has done is issued a new code of governance for ETBs.

I just want Mr. Owens to answer one question, which he has more or less done. They have not changed that much.

Mr. Ted Owens

I suppose where they have changed most would be in respect of the audit committee, for example.

The ones we are talking about have not changed that much. Let us cut to the chase.

Mr. Ted Owens

The overall composition has not changed that much.

That is right. Let us not bluff the people who are listening in to us. It has not changed. Mr. Owens has not ever referred to the past. Let us see what happened in the past. What was happening on the audit committees during the years when all of this was going on? Who were the members of the audit committee? Was there an accountant on the audit committee? Had it access to proper human resource management information?

Mr. Ted Owens

The audit committees at the time would have comprised members of the VEC at the time.

Was there an accountant on the audit committee?

Mr. Ted Owens

Only by chance if, for example, there was account sitting on it. There would not have been an accountant in County Cork VEC, to the best of my knowledge.

Let us be straight. There was no accountant.

Mr. Ted Owens

There was not.

Did the individuals who served on the audit committees understand their responsibilities in terms of audit, human resource issues that might have arisen and responsibility to the Committee of Public Accounts? Have they any understanding that it was not just their domain and that it was actually taxpayers' money for which they were accountable up the chain?

Mr. Ted Owens

I can talk about the case of my own VEC, because I was the CEO of City of Cork VEC.

I am only interested in Cork here and now.

Mr. Ted Owens

I can talk about what I would have done in the City of Cork VEC.

I am not asking what you would have done. I am asking what was done.

Mr. Ted Owens

I was the CEO of City of Cork VEC at the time. I would have pointed out to the audit committee that this was a particularly important function and that they had a huge oversight role, not just in terms of finance but in terms of systems and procedures. However, this was a reserve function of the committee. It was for members to decide who was on the committee - it was not my function. I would have looked for people who had a finance background or knowledge in that area. I recently advertised for members of the audit committee because, in the new audit committees, there must be three external members. The Department has taken action in that regard.

That is a little bit too late, Mr. Owens. It is not the fact that a new ETB was put in place. It is the fact that the old VEC allowed this to go on. That is what is at issue in this report. Mr. Ó Foghlú was not in the Department at the time, but perhaps he can tell us what the role of the audit committee or the VEC was? Where did they report to?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

The audit committee at the time was a sub-committee of the VEC. It was not statutory but was established under the code of governance we established. The audit committee reported to the VEC and the VEC reported to us. The audit committee had an internal audit service, the VSSU, and this carried out quite an effective internal audit of Macroom Youthreach. The audit committee then considered that report.

When did the internal VSSU audit unit have full knowledge of the range of problems they faced as things went wrong down there in terms of staff, leases and all the other things outlined in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

The internal audit service is a service for the VEC, not for the Department.

I understand that.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

Its engagement was primarily with the VEC and we did not see the engagement between the VEC and its internal audit service. We have since changed that.

Mr. Owens, what was your engagement with the VSSU?

Mr. Ted Owens

I was not engaged with the VSSU in County Cork VEC, but when I was the CEO of the City of Cork VEC, the VSSU would have undertaken a number of audits every year. A central management group would decide what audits would be carried out and in what VECs or sections, such as the adult literacy service. The internal audit service was not internal to the city of Cork or to County Cork but was actually external in that sense. It would have decided to do a number of audits and would have reported the outcome to the chairperson of the audit committee. That committee would have considered the audits done by the VSSU.

Were all these issues reported to the chairperson of the audit committee?

Mr. Ted Owens

The chairperson of the audit committee is the person who would have got the-----

Were all these issues reported to the chairperson of the audit committee?

Mr. Ted Owens

Were all these issues in the internal audit reported in County Cork VEC-----

Were all these issues that we are discussing today, ranging from the leases to staff, etc., reported to the audit committee?

Mr. Ted Owens

From reading the file, I realise that this particular audit, which brought a lot of these things to the fore, was requested by the CEO when he had certain concerns about Macroom.

Who was the CEO?

Mr. Ted Owens

The CEO was Mr. Barry O'Brien. He had concerns. He asked the internal audit unit to look into it, and the internal audit unit, in this particular instance, reported to him.

He was suspicious about it or heard about it and conducted the audit. He received the report. Was that report then brought to the audit committee?

Mr. Ted Owens

It was.

So they were all informed.

Mr. Ted Owens

They were.

Was the Department of Education and Skills informed?

Mr. Ted Owens

The Department would not necessarily be informed. As far as I am aware, the VSSU audit report would have been sent to us initially. From reading the file, it seems that the Department would have been kept informed that there were issues and the acting CEO would have informed the Department accordingly.

What year was that, Mr. Owens?

Mr. Ted Owens

It was 2011.

In the run-up to 2011, the audit was being done, a report was being compiled and the Department was informed.

Mr. Ted Owens

The audit was requested in early 2010. The CEO would have been given the audit report in June 2010. I will have to check my dates.

It was August 2010. The report was issued by the CEO of the VEC. It took until June 2011 for the VSSU to provide a copy of the report to the chairperson of the audit committee. Then the Department was involved.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

We were informed in April 2011.

How many years did this go on for before the audit was requested in 2010, when the VSSU completed its report? Some of this dates back to 2003 and 2004.

Mr. Ted Owens

In Macroom, some of the issues would have been taking place from 2006 onwards.

How did all of that happen? There were obviously no checks and balances. Would you agree?

Mr. Ted Owens

There were not sufficient checks and balances.

Let us look at what happened when there were not sufficient checks and balances. The different issues you had with staff are referred to in the opening comments in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. They state that between 2010 and 2013, legal settlements amounting to €111,600 were made by the VEC from its own funds. What sort of own funds did the VEC have?

Mr. Ted Owens

The VEC gets a pay and a non-pay budget from the Department of Education and Skills.

This would have been taken from taxpayers' money from the Department of Education and Skills, given to the VEC and used to settle claims or make legal settlements.

Mr. Ted Owens

That would be the case.

If you were paying that towards legal settlements something was suffering. Someone was not getting the money. The money was not paid to you to make legal settlements. What was suffering?

Mr. Ted Owens

The budget to schools and centres was suffering.

The schools and centres did not get what they should have got. Did the legal settlements follow protracted legal challenges by staff? What were they about?

Mr. Ted Owens

Many of the settlements would have been covered by insurance. But-----

No, no, no. Some €111,600 in settlements was paid out by the VEC from its own funds.

Mr. Ted Owens

That is right.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The table is in section 4.2 of the report.

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes, I have that. That table is-----

Starting in 2010. The VEC had settlements of €500, €14,800, €3,000 and €93,000 in 2013 and the legal costs-----

Mr. Ted Owens

Can I-----

It was €178,000 in 2010.

Mr. Ted Owens

In 2010, the legal costs were €178,000.

What was that for?

Mr. Ted Owens

Fifty-five percent of it was for employment-related issues, 11% was for property issues and 34% was for other advices.

That was €178,000 in one year, and then in 2011 it was €49,700, in 2012 it was €156,200, and in 2013 it was €58,000.

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes. In 2011, of the €49,000, 72% was for employment-related cases, 15% was for property, 13% was for other advices-----

I do not want to get lost in statistics. Stick to the staff issues. Part of the €178,000 relates to staff issues.

Mr. Ted Owens

Fifty-five percent relates to employment issues.

That is out of the VEC's own funds and it was for legal costs.

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes.

What were the settlements in that regard?

Mr. Ted Owens

There was a settlement of €500 in 2010, for example. The largest settlement along that line is €93,000. Does the Chair want me to deal with that?

That is in 2010.

Mr. Ted Owens

No, that was actually in 2013.

I am asking about 2010. The €178,300 in legal costs must have related to a number of cases.

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes. The Chair has asked me about the €500 in 2010. That was a Rights Commissioner determination.

What were the other legal costs? Half of that legal cost related to staffing issues.

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes.

Was that just advice that the VEC got?

Mr. Ted Owens

It would have been, for example, the legal costs involved in representation as well as advice. To solicitors, barristers-----

My point is that if the VEC was paying the best part of €90,000 of that €178,000 for legal costs, was there a settlement alongside that? The VEC was paying for legal advice. Was it only getting legal advice, or was there a particular court case or cases in train? Were there out-of-court settlements with individuals?

Mr. Ted Owens

The settlements are on that table as well.

They amount to €500.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The point the Chairman is making is that-----

Mr. Ted Owens

Is it in that particular year?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

-----the costs would not necessarily be matched with the settlements in the year. Effectively, it is a receipts and payments situation, so as costs are incurred by the VEC, they would be paying them and they would be represented here, but the settlement might have been in 2011 or in 2013.

When were the settlements made and how much of a settlement was made as the VEC went along? If it was paying that, the total settlement in 2010 was €500, the next year it was €14,800, in 2012 it was €3,000 and in 2013 it was €93,000. Was the €93,000 in 2013 a single settlement?

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes.

One individual.

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes. It was for arrears of pay. That person took the County Cork VEC to the Labour Court. I had actually been in the position for a number of months when that settlement was made, so I can refer to that settlement. That person had won a Rights Commissioner case and gone to the Labour Court. I was informed when I took up the appointment that the Labour Court told County Cork VEC prior to my appointment that it was going to find in favour of this individual, that she was entitled to arrears of pay and that it was up to County Cork VEC - then Cork ETB, because that did not happen until October or November - to agree on what the settlement was. It was arrears of pay.

To one person.

Mr. Ted Owens

To one person, yes.

The VEC could not see that.

Mr. Ted Owens

I saw it. I entered into negotiations following a Labour Court recommendation

Fair play to Mr. Owens. The ones who were there before him obviously did not see it. They ran up massive legal costs and in the end they paid the individual concerned €93,300.

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes. I paid the individual.

It was not Mr. Owens who paid. It was the Irish people.

Mr. Ted Owens

The Irish people paid the individual, yes.

Mr. Owens saw the sense of it. It states in the code of practice from the Department of Finance that "where a legal dispute involving the institute arises, every effort should be made to mediate, arbitrate or otherwise before expensive legal costs are incurred". That principle was completely ignored.

Mr. Ted Owens

I try to live by that instruction.

I know Mr. Owens does, but the ones who were there before him did not. That is the point I am making. In how many settlements has a confidentiality clause been inserted?

Mr. Ted Owens

One of the first cases I became involved in related to an individual who had written extensively to the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Committee of Public Accounts, the Department and the VEC. I got involved in that case. Rather than go through the courts, it was agreed that we would use the State dispute resolution process, and that resolution was mediated with an Equality Tribunal officer.

After how many years?

Mr. Ted Owens

The person-----

We do not know the person. We just want to know-----

Mr. Ted Owens

Sorry. I would think maybe seven or eight years.

Is Mr. Owens saying the confidentiality clause was inserted in only one case?

Mr. Ted Owens

In that particular case, it was the mediator who decided it was standard in such cases to have a confidentiality clause.

Was that confidentiality clause inserted in the €93,000 settlement?

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes, it was.

It was. These were people who were employed by the VEC.

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes.

Would a clause have been inserted in those agreements stating that they should never seek employment from the VEC again?

Mr. Ted Owens

That was a different case. There was one case.

Why would that be put into it?

Mr. Ted Owens

That particular person had applied to County Cork VEC for numerous jobs. I mean numerous jobs.

There is nothing wrong with that.

Mr. Ted Owens

No, but every time the person was unsuccessful, the person went to some forum, be it the Rights Commissioner-----

There is nothing wrong with that.

Mr. Ted Owens

-----or the Equality Tribunal.

There is nothing wrong with that. That is what they are all there for.

Mr. Ted Owens

That is what they are all there for. They were unsuccessful in each case. I met that person when I was appointed as CEO. I sat down and listened to that person. That person also had a Supreme Court case pending and another case pending against Cork ETB. I used the opportunity in one of the cases to arrive at a settlement.

I will be quite honest with the Chairman. I wanted to try to ensure that once that settlement was reached, it was a full and final settlement. I did not want the person applying for any more jobs either because she had applied for a dozen and there was a huge amount of staff time and a huge amount in legal costs, to which the Chairman has referred. I tried to bring about a settlement the person was happy with and that I was happy with. I used the phrase which had been used in the Equality Tribunal case in this particular case as well. I wanted a fair and honourable solution, but I also wanted a resolution to the issue. I can take full responsibility for that because that happened in my time.

There was an issue about two PPS numbers for some other individual.

Mr. Ted Owens

That is right. It was actually the same individual.

Why were there two PPS numbers?

Mr. Ted Owens

Revenue had issued them inadvertently.

Had it anything to do with other payments?

Mr. Ted Owens

No.

Is Mr. Owens sure of that?

Mr. Ted Owens

I am, according to my investigations. I inquired because the person told me that had been the case. She spoke about inefficiency. She told me there were two PPS numbers and I inquired into it. Having checked out the situation, Revenue wrote stating it had inadvertently issued two different PPS numbers. I think it might have been as simple as letters JW at the end of it.

In any case, Revenue had issued two PPS numbers to this individual. County Cork VEC was paying out on the basis of a Revenue number. That would be the identifier, as such. That was a mistake by Revenue in this particular instance.

Was the individual in that case short-changed in any way in terms of salaries or hours?

Mr. Ted Owens

I do not believe so.

Was anything allocated to the second PPS number?

Mr. Ted Owens

Pardon?

There was nothing allocated to one of these PPS numbers.

Mr. Ted Owens

The PPS number was paid, so to speak.

One PPS number.

Mr. Ted Owens

No, there were two.

Only one was used in terms of the payment. Was there usage of, or a payment made to, two PPS numbers or to one?

Mr. Ted Owens

I do not know. All I know is that I was informed that there was inefficiency in this particular case, that the person had two different PPS numbers. I inquired as to whether County Cork VEC had made a mistake. I can check that out and write-----

I would like it checked out.

Mr. Ted Owens

As far as I am aware, this went back to 2005.

That is okay. Mr. Owens can go back to 2005. Cases run on for seven years. One case was settled for €93,000. I presume that is a single case. I am sure it involved a cost to that individual and that family. I am sure the cost of the trauma of facing a court and facing a battle with a State body was not easy. These are the aspects I get concerned about. That is why it is important the Department of Finance regulation or instruction be adhered to. I am glad that Mr. Owens adhered to it. I am pointing to the fact that this did not happen in the past and that it led to individuals' lives being ruined. That is a cost that the Comptroller and Auditor General cannot tot up, but it is a cost that I am aware of because I meet these people. I am absolutely horrified by a State agency doing so much damage to the lives of people. How many more cases are there that are not settled?

Mr. Ted Owens

I have engaged with all the cases of which I know and with which there were issues.

Are these ongoing cases?

Mr. Ted Owens

I do not believe there are any ongoing employment cases.

Ms Suzanne Mullins

Any ongoing employment cases are being dealt with as expeditiously as possible using the State machinery.

How many are there?

Ms Suzanne Mullins

I would have to check that out. There are not that many.

Is it one, two, six or ten? Is it in single digits or double digits?

Ms Suzanne Mullins

It would be in the single digits.

For how long were they going on?

Ms Suzanne Mullins

These would be all new cases since the formation of the ETB.

Since what date?

Ms Suzanne Mullins

They are all within the last six to eight months, or less.

Mr. Ted Owens

I was referring to the historic cases. I inquired if there were cases. There were a number of cases and they have been resolved. I dealt with the people and with their unions. I would be motivated by the concern the Chairman has expressed and I tried to bring those to a fair and equitable conclusion.

I am impressed with what Mr. Owens says. He is telling me that there are no historic cases - they have all been dealt with - and that there is a small number of current cases that date back to 2011.

Mr. Ted Owens

No, to after July 2013.

Are these all HR cases to do with employment of some kind or other?

Ms Suzanne Mullins

There are a number of personal injury cases as well.

As was said, the ETB is using the appropriate-----

Ms Suzanne Mullins

Yes.

Mr. Ted Owens

Not in the case of a personal injury claim.

Ms Suzanne Mullins

Not in the case of personal injury.

Mr. Ted Owens

Personal injury is where a person falls off a chair or cuts a finger. Unfortunately, there are accidents in the workplace.

Can we go back to the 23 cases settled and paid for by the VEC's insurance? A further 23 cases were settled and paid for by the VEC insurers at a cost of €95,000.

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes.

Is that a total of 23 and a total settlement of €95,000? Maybe the Comptroller and Auditor General would tell us. I refer to 23 cases, settlement of €95,000 and legal fees of €442,200.

Mr. Ted Owens

The first was in 2010 for €54,000. Some €35,616 was for a teacher who, unfortunately, severed a finger. Some €15,000 was for a teacher who brought a bullying and harassment claim and €4,102 was for a teacher and student-----

How much did the teacher get for the bullying and harassment claim?

Mr. Ted Owens

Some €15,000.

I missed a figure in the opening statement of €120,000.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The €120,000 is the legal costs incurred by the insurers.

Therefore, €442,200 was incurred by the VEC and then €120,000 in costs was incurred by the insurance company.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes.

How did the VEC pay the €442,000?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

That would have been paid on an ongoing basis to its-----

To the insurers.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

-----legal representatives.

Mr. Ted Owens

The legal costs were €442,000.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The insurers picked up the €120,000.

What about the insurance then?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Is that the cost of the insurance?

Yes. During those years, did the insurance hold at the same premium or did it go up, or was there a period when the VEC had no insurance?

Mr. Ted Owens

County Cork VEC would always have been insured by Irish public bodies. That is the body which would represent the county councils and local authorities and the vast majority of the VECs. I do not believe that there was any substantial increase over those years.

What would the insurance premium be?

Mr. Ted Owens

The insurance premium would have been approximately €300,000 a year.

Did that go up?

Mr. Ted Owens

There was no substantial increase.

In terms of that bullying and harassment case, did the VEC settle that for €15,000?

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes. That was in 2010.

It was settled. In other words, the person was correct, according to the findings, about being bullied and harassed.

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes.

In all that time, did anyone get sanctioned for any of this? Did anyone get fired? Did the person, for example, who was doing the bullying and harassing remain in place?

Mr. Ted Owens

To be quite honest, I do not have details of each case. However, there are grievance procedures and disciplinary procedures. First of all, in terms of whether anybody was fired, I do not believe anybody was fired in any particular instance.

Are they all still employed?

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes, they would be.

If they are within the employment age, they are all still there.

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes.

Those who did not apply the regulations, those who did not keep the books and those who were bullying and harassing, as proved in some of the cases, are still there and were not sanctioned.

Mr. Ted Owens

It may be that sanction was taken in particular instances.

The individuals are still there. They are still employed. They still kept their jobs.

Mr. Ted Owens

I would think so, yes.

What was happening in the VEC at this stage, on the committee? Was anyone on the committee raising issues in relation to what was emerging about all of these issues?

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes, there would have been. The chairperson of the audit committee certainly raised issues.

Who was that? Was it an accountant?

Mr. Ted Owens

It was Mr. Humphrey Deegan. At the time, he was a councillor. He was a committee member and chair of the audit committee.

Was the issue raised with Mr. Owens or the Department?

Mr. Ted Owens

I was not there. What happened with Councillor Humphrey Deegan was that he was chairperson of the audit committee but he felt he had to resign his post as chairperson of that committee because he was not happy with the way the internal audit report was being dealt with. He was subsequently voted off the audit committee by the members and after that, the VEC wrote to the Minister seeking his removal from the VEC.

Mr. Ted Owens

They felt that the VEC-----

He was telling the truth.

Mr. Ted Owens

You asked me why they did it, Chairman.

Did they feel he was telling the truth?

Mr. Ted Owens

No, they felt they were dealing with the issues - not to the satisfaction of Councillor Humphrey Deegan - and according to the VEC members at the time, they felt he was not acting in a professional manner.

Let us go back to that. In the context of the complaints he made to the audit committee – I did not realise he was chairman of the audit committee-----

Mr. Ted Owens

He was chair.

Did Mr. Owens look at the number of complaints he made, in hindsight?

Mr. Ted Owens

I did, yes.

Did he have a point? Was he accurate in relation to some of the issues?

Mr. Ted Owens

Basically, what Councillor Humphrey Deegan was looking for was that the weaknesses which were exposed in the internal audit report would be dealt with expeditiously.

And he was asked to leave.

Mr. Ted Owens

Initially, as I mentioned, he retired as chair. He was voted off the audit committee and, yes, he was asked-----

Let us put that in context. A person listening to this might feel it was a disgrace for him to be voted off the audit committee. However, the ones who should be disgraced are the ones who voted him off it, if, in fact, he was raising what Mr. Owens described as being the truth, or was highlighting the weaknesses in the audit report.

Mr. Ted Owens

I have spoken to audit committee members.

Mr. Ted Owens

I have also spoken to members of the executive in preparation for today, and I asked them why they took that particular course of action. They informed me that as far as they were concerned, they were dealing with the issues and they felt that perhaps Councillor Humphrey Deegan was acting unprofessionally. They claimed he was going to the press and radio and they felt there was an appropriate means by which the issues-----

He was exposing it.

Mr. Ted Owens

He was certainly exposing it.

Thank God for that. Otherwise, it would have still gone on. That is the issue at stake. Right through all of this, I see individuals and families being destroyed and reputations being destroyed, supported by State money, because that is what was going on. People were reaching out for the legal eagles to delay the process. Not only that, but we find that someone has been highlighting the issue, who in hindsight was proven to be correct, and he was voted off the board. I wonder how many of those people who voted him off the board are still on the board.

Mr. Ted Owens

Three former members of County Cork VEC are now members of Cork ETB.

Should someone have asked them why?

Mr. Ted Owens

I did ask them why.

If people do not cry stop in a situation like that, it just trundles on into a bigger problem. Now we have the same board in place. I do not cast any doubt over any of the members, but in terms of good governance, is there not a timeframe for length of service? If I am not mistaken, some of the board members I have looked at are on the board of CIT as well, and have been for a number of years, which means there is cross-over. Not alone is there cross-over, but there is also a cross-over from the time this was going on within the VEC to a time when there is a new nameplate on the door of the ETB. As I read good governance and practice, there is a timeframe for service. What we have seen is long service within the VEC, and when the new entity came in the individuals who had served for years were able to serve again because this is a new entity.

Mr. Ted Owens

Well-----

What does Mr. Ó Foghlú think of it?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

The membership of the education and training boards was a matter of detailed discussion in the Oireachtas. During that discussion, the then Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, amended the provisions of the Education and Training Boards Act to slightly expand the number of local authority members who could be nominated by local authorities onto the boards. It was a parliamentary decision to decide on the membership.

Was that not qualified thereafter, not by the then Minister, Deputy Quinn, but by a good governance policy? Are those people considered to be starting from the beginning again, as they go onto the board of the ETB, which is the legal entity?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

There is not a limit on the number of years a local authority member can serve on the ETB because they are nominated once every five years. That is a matter for the local authority to determine. The view is that it is like being a member of the local authority or a Member of Parliament, that it is not appropriate to limit the number of terms. That is the thinking behind the membership issue.

I know it is a policy issue but it does not work for me, not from what I see of the VEC, and certainly not from what I have seen here today. If Mr. Owens is to be supported in his good efforts, then the backdrop to that must be time limits and appropriate people being appointed with qualifications because they are handling taxpayers’ money.

Mr. Martin Hanevy

The internal audit committee, which the new legislation put on a statutory footing, allied to the changes in the code of governance, is a far more specialist committee.

Does Mr. Hanevy mean the audit committee?

Mr. Martin Hanevy

The audit committee as distinct from the board. As the Secretary General has explained, the board is derived from the legislation that was passed, but the-----

The critical thing here is that the good efforts of the likes of Mr. Owens are now supported by an audit committee, which is requested to have the appropriate professionals on it.

Mr. Martin Hanevy

Yes, and more important than that, we pressed through in the code of governance that there would be an external chair and that at least three of the six members must be external. There must be a blend. It does acknowledge that not everyone needs to be an accountant or have such expertise but the committee must have that skillset, but members can also have the man-on-the-street perspective.

That is fair enough.

Mr. Martin Hanevy

That is new. It replaces the old system of a sub-committee of the VEC being no different to any other sub-committee. We changed that in the legislation in the first instance by making it a mandatory committee. There was a mandatory finance committee and we added this one to it. The change was enacted in legislation. We further tried to improve the situation by introducing a code of governance and moving away from it being clearly members of the ETB to at least 50% external people, including the chair.

I welcome that. It is a good development.

Mr. Ted Owens

We have advertised in the press for external members and we have got a very good response in terms of expertise.

We are reflecting back on the past. Unfortunately, we are dealing with various settlements and legal costs. People fought the good fight and got to the end of it but they were not unscathed.

I have no doubt the money did not compensate for the condition of their health at the end of that process. Did anyone apologise to Humphrey Deegan?

Mr. Ted Owens

The first thing I did when I became CEO of the education and training board was to meet Mr. Humphrey Deegan, who was a councillor at the time. He came back onto the audit committee. He was on the first audit committee. I regret that Councillor Humphrey Deegan felt he had to resign. I regret that he was voted off the committee. The VECs had no statutory authority to try to remove Councillor Humphrey Deegan, and he was not removed because it could not be done. The Minister made that quite clear. I want to put that on record. I apologise to Councillor Humphrey Deegan and I am sorry about what transpired.

I thank Mr. Owens. With regard to the current audit committee, how long have these auditors been in place and where are they from? Are they from the Department or the VECs?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

The internal audit service is-----

How does it work?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

We have a small group of auditors employed by one of the education and training boards on an agency basis and an overall steering committee is appointed which oversees their work.

To where do they report?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

They report to the steering committee.

How many of them are in it?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

How many auditors?

Mr. Martin Hanevy

Three, and the City of Dublin ETB is independent.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

There are four.

There are four auditors in the country.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

This includes the director. City of Dublin Education and Training Board has its own service which we will integrate.

The four auditors meet separately in one of the ETB areas.

Mr. Martin Hanevy

They are hosted for employment purposes. When it was first established in 2000, it was in Cavan, which is now Cavan-Monaghan Education and Training Board.

That is where they are housed as it were.

Mr. Martin Hanevy

The steering committee is drawn from Education and Training Boards Ireland, which is the successor of the Irish Vocational Education Association, IVEA, departmental staff and a number of CEOs. The steering committee has also been changed. It is chaired by an external person who is an academic dealing with governance and audit matters. It is effectively a service to 16 ETBs to deliver an internal audit service.

The external person appointed is an academic.

Mr. Martin Hanevy

Yes, Pierce Kent.

Is he from the Department of Education and Skills?

Mr. Martin Hanevy

No.

He is completely outside?

Mr. Martin Hanevy

He is from the Smurfit Business School.

That person and three others now form the unit.

Mr. Martin Hanevy

No, sorry, he is the chairman of the steering committee. There is an appointed director, recruited through the Public Appointments System, who is the actual full-time official who manages it with the internal auditors.

These internal auditors report back to the steering committee.

Mr. Martin Hanevy

To the director, fundamentally. The steering committee is the management, but it does not have an actual executive role in the internal audit. It has independence.

Who are they?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

The steering committee? It is chaired by Pierce Kent, who is a corporate governance specialist and a senior fellow with the master of accounting programme in UCD. There are three nominees of the chief executives of ETBs, two of whom are chief executives of ETBs and one is a chief operations officer. There are three ETBI nominees - one is a chartered accountant, one is a finance officer in an institute of technology and another is a member of an ETB. The chief executive of the ETB where the vocational support services unit is based is also a member. There are two Department nominees and there will be a SOLAS nominee but we do have that person yet.

Have there been any reports back from the auditors?

Mr. Martin Hanevy

Under the new system, yes.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

We only see a summary of the report. What happens is an internal audit report is undertaken. It goes to the chair of the internal audit committee in the ETB and the chief executive and then a short statement of opinion is sent to the Department of Education and Skills. As far as I understand, we have seen three since the unit was established and the new arrangement was put in place.

Does the Department think they are doing okay?

Mr. Martin Hanevy

There is a further requirement if anything material is raised. If there is an opinion any material matter about internal controls has arisen, we must be informed.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

We think we have established a robust framework. It is in the early stages of implementation. We are in discussions with the chair of the steering committee, who wants to expand the resources for it and we are in discussions with him about this. It has the potential to work very well but we want to assure ourselves once it has been operating for a while that it operates effectively. We are very hopeful this is the case but obviously we have to-----

If one of them, three of them or whoever is in Dublin were to come forward with very serious allegations or allegations of any kind or suggestions, I presume that at this stage we have learned from the past and that there would be protection from the Department for those auditors, and from the unit itself, as they do their work so it would not be as it was in the past, whereby they would feel victimised and intimidated should they begin to raise issues. I am making the point only because of what happened in the past. I am not saying anything is going on now. I just want to know for their comfort and for my understanding of it at least that they have the protection of legislation, the Department will uphold that legislation and they will not be treated in any way other than the proper way regardless of what they raise with the unit or the Department.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

Under the protected disclosures legislation, all of the ETBs must ensure they have arrangements in place and they are not allowed to deal inappropriately with anybody who makes a disclosure. The person must be protected. The staff operating in the audit service have to be appropriately protected as employees of Cavan-Monaghan ETB.

The boat we are speaking about was given on condition it would be used for training. Is this correct?

Mr. Ted Owens

For disadvantaged young people.

Is that boat in a safe condition at present with regard to its structure and being on the water?

Mr. Ted Owens

On the water, yes, but not with regard to sailing.

So the licences it had are no longer there?

Mr. Ted Owens

No.

They are gone?

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes.

How much will it take for the boat to be brought up to an appropriate standard which the original owner might like to see and that might be proper in terms of its use and its further use? Has this been costed?

Mr. Ted Owens

It was costed by an independent maritime assessor at €150,000 in 2008-----

Sorry, could you repeat that?

Mr. Ted Owens

It was costed in 2008 by an independent marine assessor and he determined it could cost up to €150,000 for it to get the required passenger licence to travel 12 miles offshore and carry 12 passengers. I do not have any intention of spending that kind of money, but some voluntary work has been done on the boat by people who are extremely interested in the marine. The vessel is known in sail training circles. It is not my intention that the boat will sail again if anything like the costs which have been determined must be incurred. That is the worst-case scenario and I am investigating the situation.

Will Mr. Owens give us a report on it?

Mr. Ted Owens

I will.

I intend to finish the meeting before 5.30 p.m. but I must take a break for ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 4.40 p.m. and resumed at 4.50 p.m.

Today we received correspondence which members did not get a chance to examine, but I wish to raise it because it is in today's correspondence pack. It came from an individual who has had a long-standing battle with County Cork VEC. He cites various issues in respect of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. We have dealt with some of these, but I glanced down through it to determine if there are any other matters. On page 11 of the report it states that there were 29 or 26 legal cases between 2010 and 2013. However, he says that following his inquiries with the Department of Education and Skills on the number of legal cases in 2011, Joan Russell, acting CEO, on 24 February said that it was in the process of dealing with 11 current cases and had recently concluded five cases. It raises the issue of the difference in the number of cases. Perhaps you would clarify that for us and report back to the committee.

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes.

I do not expect you to go into it now.

There are other issues in the report relating to ongoing correspondence being sent to the now ETB and not being responded to by an individual. Is there outstanding correspondence to the ETB that has to be replied to querying various issues?

Mr. Ted Owens

Not that I am aware of. As I said, we have 3,800 employees. People write to us-----

But not many of them write to Mr. Owens.

Mr. Ted Owens

No, but we try to engage with and respond to anybody who writes to us. I do not know anybody at this stage who feels that he or she is not being dealt with expeditiously.

I will bring that to the attention of Mr. Owens. I have the details here. I do not know whether he has seen correspondence from Mr. Hugh Rance.

Mr. Ted Owens

Today is it?

We got it today.

Mr. Ted Owens

Mr. Rance has not written to me since the settlement of his case. I have had no involvement with Mr. Rance. He was on a career break for a year. I think he was travelling abroad.

Okay, so Mr. Owens has not spoken to him.

Mr. Ted Owens

No.

To be fair about this, we will pass on the information and ask for a comprehensive response to all the issues raised because a significant number of issues have been raised and they are relevant to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. I dealt with the human cost earlier, which he deals with here, and then further investigation and recommendations are suggested. I would like to seek a response from the Department of Education and Skills and Mr. Owens regarding the queries raised. Second, in respect of the outstanding correspondence, I will deal with that separately. We will pass on to Mr. Owens.

Mr. Ted Owens

Okay, thanks.

Are in camera meetings part of the normal procedures of the new ETB? Does it hold many in camera meetings?

Mr. Ted Owens

We have not held any in camera meetings since the ETB was established.

During this difficult, challenging period, many in camera meetings were held, for which there is no minute, and they were not open to the public. Does Mr. Owens feel that could have been intimidating for the people involved?

Mr. Ted Owens

There were a number of in camera meetings. I realise there were. We have not held any in camera meetings. There would have been a minute of all those meetings but in camera in this instance meant that members of the public or members of the press would have been asked to leave. The only time we might have had an in camera meeting, we might have had asked people to leave for five minutes, for example, when we were discussing a section 29 appeal, which is an appeal by a student against a decision to expel or a decision to refuse to enrol.

Have the former chief executive officers been appointed to other boards? What are they doing now?

Mr. Ted Owens

The chief executive officer between 1996 and 2010 has retired. When the ETB was formed, the former acting chief executive officer reverted to her former position, education officer. Some time later, I was contacted by Education and Training Boards Ireland to know if I would be prepared to second the education officer to work on a project called, Instructional Leadership, which is a programme to improve teaching and learning in the classroom. Ms Russell had been spearheading that particular project. She is now working full-time with ETBI, following approval by the Department of Education and Skills, on the Instructional Leadership programme and the EDISON programme, which is a European programme that aims to develop entrepreneurial education.

Is that a full-time job?

Mr. Ted Owens

Yes.

With regard to the mileage expenses and so on of former chief executive officers, what did Mr. Owens find in his investigation?

Mr. Ted Owens

It is not something that I looked into specifically but I know what my own expenses were per year and I noted, because it was in the financial accounts, that Ms Russell would have been receiving more mileage than I would have been receiving but, in fairness, Cork county is a big county compared to my previous area of operations, Cork city, so I did not think there was anything unusual in Ms Russell's expenses.

How much would they have been approximately?

Mr. Ted Owens

That would have been approximately €10,000 to €12,000 a year.

Was it not a higher figure?

Mr. Ted Owens

No. I would have to check but I did note it. I was responsible for the signing off of the 2012 accounts for the county and it is something that is reported in those V15s. I noticed that Ms Russell's expenses were in the region of €10,000 to €12,000 a year.

Clearly, when one considers the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, the inaction by the Department and the implementation of the new structure, Mr. Owens has a critical job. The backbone of the economy is workers and their education. We have people returning to lifelong learning and with all the important qualifications that are required, the management structure within the ETB has a critical job dealing with 3,800 staff. Is the board one of Cork's largest employers?

Mr. Ted Owens

We would be. Half of those people are full-time while the other half is part-time but we have 3,800 employees and, therefore, we are a big operation.

Mr. Owens has a difficult job today as he retrospectively reconciles issues from 2011-12 that did not happen under this watch. The message for the Department is the first call of duty should not be to a legal adviser because mediation is important. Legal eagles are expensive. Would Mr. Owens recommend a mediation service in future?

Mr. Ted Owens

Certainly. It would always be my first choice to try to sort the problem first of all face to face with the person's union and, after that, use the State's mediation services.

There are 16 different authorities now. Is that correct, Mr. Ó Foghlú?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

That is right.

This is just one under the spotlight today. There has been a massive reconfiguration with the other 16 bodies having been taken in charge. There were credit controllers and principal officers in each county. There was one each in counties Leitrim, Sligo, Donegal and Mayo, for example. How was that square rounded?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

We have established a programme office to manage the change process with the ETBs. We have a series of different types of engagement with them. I lead a meeting of senior officials of the Department with all 16 CEOs and the chief executive officer of the ETBI every three months or so. We have established a programme board with nominees from the Department, SOLAS, and the ETB sector to manage the programme of change and we have a steering committee of senior officials in the Department to manage the programme of change.

The programme of change is wide-ranging and includes the establishment of shared services. We are advancing with a shared service payroll at present. We are still scoping out the possibility of a shared service for financial services, which would be very important in terms of enhancing the financial services. We will probably make a call on the business case for that within the next two months or so. We have also been working through the staffing of the organisations. In most cases, there is an amalgamation of two units and sometimes three. There actually are three single standing vocational education committees, VECs, that became education and training boards, ETBs, but, in addition, there is a transfer of training staff from the former FÁS, so there is a lot of change going on in this regard. Clearly, there are efficiencies the ETBs can have through being a single organisation rather than a number of former organisations and it is a matter for the chief executive officer to manage this. We have prioritised the filling of critical vacancies and have allowed for acting up education officers to be put in place. We are now looking at putting in place a principal officer cadre within them and at having an approach to that. We are in discussions with the sector about that at present.

Is it not the case that the capitation grant per student is considerably higher from the Department to the ETBs, or former VECs, when compared with religious schools? What is the difference? Is the difference not considerable?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

In the first instance, the difference between the voluntary secondary schools and the ETB second-level schools is that the first €330 of teachers' pay is actually paid for by the school. The Minister has given a commitment that if, or when, we return to increasing capitation rates, the first call on any increase in capitation rates would be to enable the schools not to be obliged to fund that €330 themselves. A number of years ago, before the difficult financial circumstances, we actually had offered to pay that directly but the voluntary secondary schools liked the independence of paying some of their teaching staff. That position has changed and they want us to pay it, so we are looking at that. In addition, work was done previously that showed some disparity between the funding of the three sectors, namely, the ETB sector, the voluntary sector and the community schools sector-----

It is important to know, if one considers the funding from the State to Education and Training Boards Ireland, ETBI, compared with the two other sectors. If one takes a single student, what is the difference?

Mr. Martin Hanevy

Perhaps I will go back a bit historically. As the Secretary General has noted, work and analysis were carried out that established a gap.

Is this not a major gap?

Mr. Martin Hanevy

It was at the time, but there was a closing of that gap. This was done during the good years, if one wishes to call them that, when capitation grants were being increased and a greater increase was given over a series of years-----

The greater increase was given to-----

Mr. Martin Hanevy

-----to the voluntary secondary schools, in particular.

Yes, but the VEC schools were getting €100-plus more than the-----

Mr. Martin Hanevy

No. It became known as the policy of equalisation-----

Mr. Martin Hanevy

-----and an advance was made in that regard but then the downturn came and we were cutting capitation grants, so the model that had enabled the gap to be closed disappeared unless one was to reduce the budgets of the ETBs to give to others, which the Minister decided not to do. There are differences between the sectors. The State carries the insurance costs of the community and comprehensive schools but, as members heard earlier, it is a charge in the case of the ETBs. As this still is a live issue, as the Secretary General has stated, there is a first step we have agreed with the voluntary secondary schools that must be taken in regard to that pay disparity piece. However, in looking at this, I have some reservations about the original analysis on whether it properly divorced out the school piece of the ETBs' business from their adult education and whatever else and that it may have factored in costs, so there is a piece there. The way in which the moratorium applied probably has been more severe on the ETBs and the community and comprehensive schools in respect of their caretakers and secretaries because they were in posts, whereas the voluntary secondary schools continued to have their grant for that.

Mr. Martin Hanevy

This is a live policy issue and the Minister has signalled that it is something to be dealt with as the resources are available to do it.

The reason I raise this point is that proportionately, more money and funding goes to the ETBI schools, at a considerably higher level per student, than to the other two authorities within the school sector.

Mr. Martin Hanevy

I think the disparity would be bigger between the voluntary secondary schools. There is not as big a gap between both the community and comprehensive schools.

No.

My final point pertains to the role of Mr. Owens in Cork. It is an important point on the recommendation of a school building programme and the role of investment by the Department in this regard. I am familiar with this issue from experience arising from another application. What role has Mr. Owens with regard to his recommendation pertaining to the disbursement of building funds? What is his critical role as the Accounting Officer, as effectively he is the Accounting Officer in Cork, as to what school he nominates for departmental funding? How is that developed?

Mr. Ted Owens

In terms of buildings and capital funds-----

Mr. Ted Owens

-----we have quite a large capital investment programme. Approximately €75 million of capital funds over the next five years has been provided to provide new schools in Cork. In some cases, one has a situation in which the Department will look after the actual building project but in recent years, it has been the policy of the Department of Education and Skills to try to devolve projects out to schools. In that particular instance, we are responsible from site purchase to the completion and consequently, there are heavy responsibilities in that regard.

On that point on the devolved authority, I refer to the devolved authority Mr. Owens now has. Many people do not understand this point when it comes to the authority he has and I refer to the devolved authority within the other 16 jurisdictions as to what to prioritise. How is the ranking done in this regard? Who sits on that board with the devolved authority?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

The decision on which major projects to advance is a decision of the Department and of the Minister and we have that in our five-year capital plan. The current five-year capital plan is very focused on demographic growth and the Minister plans a renewed capital plan for the next five years for the autumn, once the Government has in place an overall five-year capital investment programme. The decisions on what goes on that are a matter for the Department. I refer to the decisions on the mode of delivery, whether it is by public private partnerships, PPP, or is traditional whereby a design team is engaged by a school board of management, albeit in connection with the Department, whether it is arranged by or devolved to an ETB. The National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, also has done some traditional buildings for us, as have the local authorities and the Office of Public Works. There is a difference between the decision to go ahead and the decision on the manner of delivery. The ETB has no decision-making role with regard to what major school buildings are chosen.

Even with the devolved authority and the €75 million building programme that will be there-----

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

The Department decides on which school building-----

Would it be on the recommendation of the-----

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

We actually even have moved past that because we have been obliged to focus on demographics. We undertook an exercise to establish where the demographic demand was across the country and we decided on the school buildings. Consequently, we do not seek recommendations from ETBs in that regard. They may be contacting us seeking, but it is not based on recommendations and we are going through that process again to feed into the next five-year plan.

To conclude, and I thank the Chairman, the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General affords a good opportunity. Unfortunately, for anybody from the outside who looked at that report and the nine major issues, bad management and incompetence were evident in all the different chapters of that report.

As the Chairman said, it is very important for the future that it is not just a name change. People do not want to find that when we reconfigure different bodies we reappoint the same people to different boards. People want action, straight talk and results. Clearly, from the point of view of coming before this committee again, I have no doubt that when the Comptroller and Auditor General has time to do a study on the reconfiguration of the 16 bodies he will look at the duplication of jobs, the people who were CEOs and where a new CEO is appointed for a reconfigured area. How were they made redundant or what happened to their jobs?

Mr. Martin Hanevy

We were required under the Croke Park agreement to have a redeployment scheme. Of the 33 at the time a number of them were acting people, because we had not been filling them on a permanent basis for some years. They just returned to whatever they were. We had an excess. We had to reach agreement with SIPTU on that. To some degree, what we delivered was akin almost to a CAO system where they gave the order of their preferences of where they wanted to be, and their seniority determined it. We still have a number but we had an obligation to have them employed, so we have a number who are doing particular tasks.

Has the ETBI any service level agreements signed with any other State entity for a service to be delivered by the ETBI, such as SOLAS? What service level agreements have been signed with regard to the operation of the ETBI schools? Are they in-house services?

Mr. Martin Hanevy

SOLAS determines all that goes to further education.

Has that service level agreement been signed with the Secretary General of the Department?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

I do not fully understand the question but the ETBs are funded in two ways. We would provide the direct funding for the second level schooling and, indeed, the small bit of primary schooling in the ETBs. That is basically the teachers' salaries, the capitation and so forth. We also fund the head office activities. The further education and training parts are now formally the responsibility of SOLAS. We fund the teachers for the PLCs, which is part of further education because they are treated like second level teachers.

Is there a service level agreement signed with SOLAS?

Mr. Ted Owens

I believe I can answer that. ETBs have been required by SOLAS to sign a memorandum of understanding in terms of funding, which is a funding mechanism between SOLAS and the ETBs. That is still the subject of some discussions but it is very near to conclusion.

Would it be possible to forward a copy of the service level agreement to the Chairman? The service level agreement is quite a revealing document. Does it not deal with the positions and the ranking of staff as well?

Mr. Ted Owens

No, it would not deal with the ranking of staff. It is an agreement which indicates basically the responsibilities of each ETB to spend the money which is given to us by SOLAS for the purposes for which it is given.

From the Comptroller and Auditor General's point of view, that service level agreement is a different source of funding from the ETBI's. Is that correct?

Mr. Ted Owens

We receive funding from the Department directly and we receive funding from SOLAS separately.

Will the Comptroller and Auditor General be carrying out an audit on the SOLAS aspect of funding?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Certainly, we carry out the audit of SOLAS and one of the things that we would be concerned to see is that where funds are transferred between agencies there would be clear understanding and agreement on what they are for and how it is to be reported back to the funder.

Chairman, I am glad I raised that point. This is a new service level agreement. Getting agreement is a contentious issue. It is a new stream of funding and it is a new mechanism of training and qualification. It will be a replacement for Youthreach in many ways because it is dealing with the apprenticeship area. Is that correct?

Mr. Ted Owens

The Deputy is correct that it will deal with apprenticeships. It will deal with all funding outside of mainstream second level funding. It is all further education and training funding, with the exception that the Secretary General has mentioned in terms of the remuneration of staff. All funding for further education and training purposes will now emanate from SOLAS rather than directly from the Department of Education and Skills.

The reason I am making this point is that there are fundamental changes with the ETBI and the mindset regarding funding. It is a fundamental shift in the level of apprenticeship, given the necessities and the skills demand. With regard to the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts, it is an entirely new way of operation for the boards. It is not business as usual.

Mr. Ted Owens

I agree with Deputy Perry. This is a huge change.

Mr. Owens talks about the board he has appointed. Will there be a SOLAS representative on his board?

Mr. Ted Owens

There will not be a SOLAS representative on our board. SOLAS is a body which has a statutory function to plan, co-ordinate and fund further education and training in Ireland. We are the providers at local level.

Is it correct that there are 31 centres around the country?

Mr. Ted Owens

There are not 31 centres around the country. There are 33 VECs. There is a shortfall in the number of training centres, so in five ETBs there is no training centre at present. However, negotiations are ongoing on how the training provision can be provided in those particular ETBs, even though there is no training centre.

Where there are training centres, or even where services would be contracted out, would the witnesses not think it would be advisable to have a member of that SOLAS body - the manager or somebody who is co-ordinating those apprenticeships - on the new board?

Mr. Martin Hanevy

I will answer that. The board is determined by the legislation. The legislation provides for 12 members that come from the county council, two parents, two people elected by the staff of the ETB and then there are five people who are co-opted. What is new and different in this legislation compared to the previous legislation is that the Minister determines a number of bodies who can nominate to each, such as bodies like IBEC to reflect what the Deputy is talking about fundamentally. The game change that has to go on here in training, apprenticeship and whatever else is for the board to have that type of input. That is being provided for in how it can select. It goes to what the Chairman was saying earlier. It is a partial change. It is not a change in the elected members coming from the local county council but it is a different way of doing the co-option.

Deputy Perry, it is probably something we can look at in the context of the recommendation.

I am glad the Comptroller and Auditor General is involved with regard to the SOLAS input into the new management and structure. The meeting today has given a huge vista regarding what not to do in the future. That is why I am putting down a clear marker in that regard. I have no doubt that Mr. Owens is doing a comprehensive job taking over that difficult situation in Cork. Equally, he has an immense responsibility to ensure an example of the best management skills and integration of key management opportunities that the Department is recommending now. For the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Secretary General of the Department it is important that this change is managed correctly.

This is a non-money issue but it was reported back on 29 October 2012 that there was a case taken under the Sex Offenders Act 2001. I presume that, arising from that, all the appropriate safeguards have been put in place relative to the legislation.

Mr. Ted Owens

That is correct.

I also presume that issue has been dealt with.

Mr. Ted Owens

That issue has been dealt with and there is proper Garda vetting of all employees.

I mentioned earlier that somebody had written to the committee. I will clarify that. Apparently, Mr. Frank Fox, of the Department of Education and Skills, has the spreadsheet in respect of the queries that have been raised.

It has been pointed out that some of these are legal matters but they are not raised or considered to be of issue legally in terms of the person who raised them. Will Mr. Owens check and determine the current position in order to let us know? Perhaps somebody in the Department of Education and Skills can assist him. Deputy Perry raised the issue of expenses and the figure I have seen is €27,000 in one year. Will the witness provide clarification on that? That is the best way to do it.

Mr. Ted Owens

I will send the expenses paid to Ms Russell in the past five years for travel.

That is fine.

Mr. Ted Owens

I assure the Chairman they are nothing like €27,000 per annum.

It has been mentioned. We say these things in a committee and it is often a worthwhile vehicle for the witnesses to put out their information and correct an issue.

Mr. Ted Owens

This is a matter of public record, as published in the V15s every year. We will send in Ms Russell's travel expenses.

The Evening Echo reported that €438,960 was paid for member expenses on education and training boards. I presume that is a national figure. Somebody might inquire into that and let us have details. It is reported in the local media.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

For County Cork VEC, for the six month period of January to June, the V15 is showing €25,386. In the previous year, the payment was €54,362. That was travel and subsistence to members for VEC meetings. That is just Cork county.

Is the other figure a national figure?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I would imagine it is possibly.

Mr. Martin Hanevy

For information, until the change in the local elections, the initial composition of the new board involved the members from the city as well as the members from the county. There was a significant number of members in the period until the new board was changed after the elections.

Mr. Ted Owens

That figure would also include expenses paid at a daily rate, such as those for interview boards. In fairness, County Cork is a large county, running from Mitchelstown to Allihies. The expenses would have been higher than they would have been in the city.

The Committee of Public Accounts would certainly be interested in a breakdown of the figure currently being reported of €438,960. Were new terms of reference issued to the audit unit?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

It is part of the new steering committee arrangements.

Will those terms of reference limit the work of the auditors? Does it change in any way the range of work that can be carried out by the auditors?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

It is not intended to limit but it is intended to ensure effective work. It is not intended in any negative way but it is intended to be in line with best practice and ensure the auditors can undertake effective work.

So the range of their work will not be interfered with?

Mr. Martin Hanevy

An audit plan is designed at the start of the year and the director is mandated to deliver on that. He would assign the work, depending on the location. Critically, the process is then over to the team.

As he signs over the work to them and they carry out the work, is the range of the work that they are able to undertake as auditors scaled down or restricted? Are they prevented in any way from doing their work as they did it before?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

That is not the intention. Absolutely not.

Will that be made clear to the auditors?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

We have done so. I met with the chairman in preparation for this meeting and we have had discussions about the effective operation. We have made it clear that they will undertake whatever audits they deem appropriate.

Will the witness ensure that message goes down the line? It would be very important, arising from today's hearing.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

An example in the terms of reference is scope and independence, which indicates that the scope of internal audit extends to all activities carried out by the education and training board, regardless of how they are funded or regulated.

May we have a copy of that?

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

Absolutely.

I thank the witnesses for attending. There are a number of issues that I have not touched but I will try to detail them with the clerk and send them to Mr. Ó Foghlú and Mr. Owens to get comprehensive answers to each of the issues yet to be addressed. I thank Mr. Owens for being so frank with his replies and his efforts in the normal course of life to resolve the matters that must be resolved.

The witnesses withdrew.
The committee adjourned at 5.35.p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 24 September 2015.
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