COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 9 Mar 2017

Business of Committee

Chairman

We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, a permanent witness at the committee. He is accompanied by Ms Ruth Foley, deputy director of audit. Apologies have been received from Deputy Marc MacSharry.

The first item on the agenda is the minutes of the meeting of 2 March 2017. Are they agreed to? Agreed.

The next item is matters arising from the minutes. There are no special items that we will not deal with during the course of dealing with the agenda.

No. 3 is correspondence received since the last meeting. We will put it on the screen. In category A, No. 328A is a briefing document from the HSE for today's meeting. We shall note and publish it. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 329A is the opening statement from Mr. Tony O'Brien, director general of the HSE. We shall note and publish it. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Category B is correspondence received from Accounting Officers or Ministers, or both, as follow-ups on previous meetings. Nos. 300B (i-iii) and 331B are correspondence, dated 17 February 2017 and 8 March 2017, from Mr. Maurice Quinn, Secretary General, Department of Defence. The correspondence comprises a follow-up to his appearance before the committee on 26 January and a subsequent information request. It was held over from last week. Does any member wish to comment? The second letter came last night. It deals specifically with the maintenance cost of the Gulfstream IV aircraft. I suggest we hold it over because we have not had time to consider it. There is some conflicting information in the public arena on the issue. We will come back to these two items of correspondence.

Nos. 313B and 330B are correspondence, dated 22 February 2017 and 7 March 2017, from Mr. Noel Waters, Secretary General, Department of Justice and Equality, following up on his appearance before the committee on 2 February. This correspondence was also held over from the last meeting. It deals with various aspects of the restorative justice schemes. There is a note on how many staff have been saved by the new building development programme which I think comes under the prison programme. There is a note on PACE, as it is called. Can we note it? There is also information on the number of assaults on prison officers in 2016. We asked for that information and it has come in separately. It is the most recent letter to which I referred. Can we note these items of correspondence and move on? If members wish to read and use them according to their own perspectives, they may do so.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I asked a particular question about restorative justice.

Chairman

The Deputy has received her reply and is free to take and work with it once we have it published.

Category C is correspondence from private individuals or other correspondence. No. 320C is correspondence, dated 15 February 2017, received from an individual regarding fraud allegations made by Teagasc officials. The last committee received correspondence from this individual and subsequent replies from Teagasc. The secretariat is working on putting the information together and will circulate it among committee members for the next meeting. Can we agree to return to this topic at the next meeting? It was dealt with previously. We need to get the information given to the last Committee of Public Accounts. I received a registered letter from the individual concerned which I passed on to the secretariat this morning. We will come back to the general topic at next week's meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 321C is correspondence, dated 25 February 2017, from Connolly for Kids Hospital on the building of the national children's hospital. As no date has yet been set for that meeting, we can ask the spokesperson to send a written submission, as indicated in the correspondence. We have written to the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and the Department of Health about the estimates for the project and costs incurred to date, asking in addition how it arrived at the original estimates. Obviously, the Connolly for Kids Hospital group has contacted us. The first thing we will do is take a written submission. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will be coming back to the issue directly. I also believe the health committee may be considering it.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Yes, it is.

Chairman

We will be coming back to the issue.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

That is fair enough. Obviously, the argument in favour of a different location for the hospital is related but separate. It does not really concern us. I ask that we check with the health committee to ensure the expenditure to date, the projected expenditure, the estimates and the forecasts are absolutely, thoroughly and rigorously examined. The figures in the public domain indicate that it will be the most expensive children's hospital ever anywhere on the globe, which is absolutely shocking. In terms of our role, we know that there is that information or speculation; therefore, we have an obligation to investigate it and make sure we get some answers. We do not want to duplicate the work of another committee, but the health committee might take a slightly different slant on things than we might. Do we have a way of talking to it?

Deputy Alan Kelly

As a member of both committees, I can inform members that the health committee is dealing with this issue. Issues regarding decision-making that date back a long time will be discussed by it. The issue of costs will come into the debate, including projected costs, costs already committed to and predicted costs. From the health committee's perspective, it is a question of decision-making and the timelines involved. We ought to be careful to ensure both committees will not do more or less the same thing. I suggest the Chairman talk to the Chairman of the other committee or that the two clerks talk to each other about this, such that we could analyse projections and costs, while the other committee could analyse decision-making and policy.

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I entirely agree. Whatever way we do it, we need to make sure our piece of the work will be covered to ensure the issue will be rigorously examined because very large sums of public money are involved.

Chairman

Okay. We will arrange for communication between myself and the Chairman or the respective clerks to the committee, and we will send a note to the committee so that committee members will know while they are looking at it we will also be considering an aspect in order that we will not duplicate each other's work.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Exactly.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Agreed.

Chairman

I want to ensure everything is covered.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Super.

Chairman

I thank the members. That is good.

The next item is No. 322C, dated 25 February 2017, from an individual regarding the closure of Harold's Cross greyhound stadium. Are we bringing in Bord na gCon at some stage?

Deputy Alan Kelly

Yes. I wanted to raise this. I understand this will be topical after tonight's programme about which we all will be talking, as on many other occasions. Bord na gCon needs to be brought before the Committee of Public Accounts. We have spoken about this previously. We need to bring them really high up the line. I would ask, with the indulgence of the committee members, that when we are looking at schedule, we consider bringing them in at the earliest opportunity possible.

From the information that has been provided to many members of the committee - certainly, I have been provided with a considerable volume of information and I have spoken about this in the Dáil - it is an organisation that needs analysis, and quickly.

Chairman

Did the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine bring them in?

Deputy Alan Kelly

The Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine has spoken to them but there is a depth of analysis in relation to costs and spending that needs to be done by the Committee of Public Accounts, which would have a far wider remit.

Chairman

The Comptroller and Auditor General produced a report on Bord na gCon previously.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

We did. There were two aspects to it. One was the development of Limerick Stadium but at that stage, already there were difficulties around their financial position. Part of that report dealt with that and flagged up that they had a level of debt that might be difficult for them to sustain.

Deputy Alan Kelly

The key issue for some of us on the committee who went into the depths of this is that there is decision-making going on at present based on historical debt. How that debt was arrived at and the decision-making around that, and now the decision-making around the industry as a result of how they ended up with that debt, really needs thorough analysis. The result of it is that the industry, to be frank, is going down the toilet. It is an industry that is collapsing as we speak and it needs to be arrested.

Chairman

That is fine. A lot of taxpayers' money goes directly into the greyhound fund.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Absolutely.

Chairman

That is noted and agreed. We will put it on the work programme, which we will come to in a few minutes.

On correspondence, No. 323C (i and ii), dated 28 February, is from the HSE, in reply to information sought on Our Lady's Hospital, Cashel. Does Deputy Kelly wish to comment on this? We also will forward a copy to Deputy Mattie McGrath.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I read this in detail and I have a number of questions relating to the figures that have been provided. As a follow-up on that, I will prepare some questions to the HSE. I accept the bona fides of the HSE in what it sent us. However, the real issue here is not the figures. There are two issues. The first is the figures that have been quoted publicly in HSE forums versus the figures that are quoted here. This is the first time these figures have ever been quoted - I have never come across them. They do not correlate with what has been told to HSE forums, figures which have been publicly spoken about and received in the media. I will ask questions on that.

The second issue is more interesting. When the HSE in this response outlines the type of services that were being made available as a result of the capital expenditure, by and large, they do not exist. If the volume of capital spending is accurate - I cannot doubt the bona fides of what has been written here - why are the services, as a result of both capital expenditures of significant money, not in place? I visited this hospital with the current Minister and there was not a single patient there. Those services are not there or at least are not working to the level of which the capital expenditure would justify.

Chairman

Does Deputy Kelly want to-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I will follow up.

Chairman

We will come back to this. We will hold that correspondence. It is not relevant to the specific topic today for the HSE.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I presume at some point-----

Chairman

The HSE will be back.

Deputy Alan Kelly

We agreed - in fairness, a couple of Deputies, including Deputy Cullinane, were fairly strong on this too - we are to do a section here on capital spending-----

Chairman

Exactly, capital expenditure.

Deputy Alan Kelly

-----and they have written to us asking if we would want anything over €5 million because of their minor works. We need to make a decision on when we will do that too. We can deal with this issue as part of that.

Chairman

As part of our review of capital expenditure, that is good. We note that. We will return to it as part of our future work programme.

No. 324C (i and ii), dated 24 February, is from NAMA, following up on the sale of the Savarin portfolio in the Czech Republic. Can we agree to forward this to the original correspondent and note it? Agreed.

No. 325C, dated 24 February, from Deputy Niall Collins, relates to investigations into HR and financial irregularities in the University of Limerick. The committee notes this. As the university will be before the committee on 30 March, we will discuss this matter then. We will notify the University of Limerick that this issue will be specifically raised so that its representatives will have full answers for us when they arrive.

No. 326C (i and ii), dated 27 February, is from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment. We are awaiting a further response from the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government on this issue of salmon fishing. We will come back to that when we get the second reply.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Can I see that correspondence?

Chairman

This correspondence is from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment. We are awaiting the second reply from the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government. When we get the two replies, we will come back to that topic.

No. 327C (i and ii), dated 28 February, is from the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. This is a letter stating that a new witness protocol will be in place. We note that. This comes to every committee. The committee will ask as quickly as possible for a legal briefing on the Kerins case because it emanated from the previous Committee of Public Accounts. The parliamentary legal adviser is available to come in when required for a briefing.

Deputy David Cullinane

On that issue, there was a briefing note sent to an Teachta McDonald following that Kerins case from the legal team here. It would be important, even if it is in private session, that we are given a full briefing on it at some point, and also to take on board its implications. We have not done that formally, as a committee. At some point - if it could be in a private session, it might be more appropriate - we might consider doing that.

Chairman

Deputy Cullinane is quite right.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

On the private session, it might be appropriate to clarify whether a session is ever private in due course.

Chairman

It is a good point. It is a misnomer in this place.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Absolutely. It is an issue we should come back to. I agree it should be in private session but there is no such thing apparently.

Chairman

There is not.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

We might come back to that.

Chairman

That is a valid point. We stated if there are leaks as a result of yesterday's meeting, we will formally be raising-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

There were leaks fairly quickly.

Chairman

There were leaks within minutes from yesterday. We will come back to that after Tuesday next.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I want to talk to the Chairman as well about yesterday-----

Chairman

No. We will just stick-----

Deputy Josepha Madigan

-----but not right now.

Chairman

Okay. I will ask the secretariat to formally arrange that briefing with the Office of the Parliamentary Legal Adviser and to come back to us with a suitable time.

No. 332C, dated 8 March 2017, is from the HSE, regarding correspondence we received last week about staff of the former charity Console. This was received late yesterday evening. The issue here is, essentially, that there were persons working for Console who have not been paid their wages - I have not read the full details of the letter; Console has gone into liquidation, none of its debts and liabilities have been paid; and the HSE is saying that it is a section 39 agency agreement and the HSE is not legally liable for any liabilities of such organisations. That is technically legally correct. However, that is not good enough. I suggest we take this matter up directly with the Minister for Health. We cannot preside over a situation where the staff members who were working for Console do not get paid. It may not be the HSE's legal responsibility but somebody has to pay them. We will take that up directly with the Minister.

Deputy David Cullinane

Is there funding put aside for that purpose?

Chairman

I do not know.

Deputy David Cullinane

It was my understanding - I could be wrong - that there was funding put aside to pay wages.

Chairman

We will ask the Department of Health, which is the overall body.

Deputy David Cullinane

At the previous meeting, we agreed that we would ask them to respond with a breakdown of what happened following-----

Chairman

Who was to respond?

Deputy David Cullinane

For the HSE to give us a document on what happened when a new company got the contract, and how much is owed and why is it owed. We do not seem to have the full picture.

Chairman

On that we are agreed. Sometimes they will say they cannot give us that legally until the liquidation has been completed.

However, somebody has to pay the staff in the meantime and if it is not the HSE, we will have to raise the matter directly with the Minister for Health because the staff cannot be left out of pocket.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I agree with the Chairman. The staff of Console are being given the brush-off and are out of pocket. As they set out in the letter, they, like everyone else, have bills to pay and families to care for. They are in this position not least because of the failure of the Health Service Executive to monitor and control the section 39 agency in question, namely, Console. It is doubly unacceptable, therefore, that the HSE has taken the attitude described. What we need to figure out is how to get recourse for the staff in question because they cannot be left in a position where they are out of pocket for a couple of months. I do not know how the committee can achieve this if the HSE's argument is that Console is a section 39 agency and, as such, has nothing to do with it or the Department.

Chairman

We will raise the matter with the parent Department.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

We will probably have to be creative and persistent.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

As Deputy McDonald indicated, the committee asked for a breakdown of the staff. Moreover, some staff kept their jobs. How was the decision made to transfer and retain some staff? Responsibility for what occurred in Console lies with senior management of the organisation. It would be interesting to obtain a breakdown showing which personnel remained in employment when they were transferred to Pieta House and which staff did not retain their jobs. How was this decision reached?

Chairman

Members appear to be ad idem on this issue.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I do not propose to repeat the comments of previous speakers. Does the committee have any responsibilities in respect of the Charities Regulator given that the individual who we have been discussing is still active? It would be unconscionable if the same mistake were to be repeated.

Chairman

If someone sends a letter to the committee on the issue, we will follow it up.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

While I understand the reason the Health Service Executive is trying to wash its hands of its responsibility for the staff, the committee cannot abandon them. I echo everything other members have said on this issue.

Deputy Alan Kelly

The committee must find out what process was used in deciding which staff retained their jobs. Who knows how that worked out? It could be a case of putting one layer on top of another. Was favouritism shown? Given what occurred in Console, it would be frightening if this were allowed to happen. From the correspondence received, it is clear that a flag is being waved to highlight that something is happening here. We need to check out this issue. The timing will be very important.

Chairman

We will write directly to the liquidator, Health Service Executive and Minister for Health. We are all agreed that we will not let this issue go.

No. 4 is reports, statements and accounts received since our previous meeting. The first, No. 4.1, is the Health and Social Care Professionals Council 2015, which receives a clear audit opinion, except in respect of non-recognition of pension costs, which is a regular occurrence in public bodies.

No. 4.2 is the Pre-hospital Emergency Care Council, which receives a clear audit opinion, except in respect of pension costs. The council specifies and monitors standards in the delivery of pre-hospital treatment. Deputies are welcome to examine the accounts to find out more about the organisation.

No. 4.3 is the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, DDDA, cessation accounts, which receives a clear audit opinion for the 14-month period between 1 January 2015 and 29 February 2016. The accounts essentially deal with the wind-up of the DDDA.

No. 4.4 is the Grand Canal Harbour Management Company limited, which receives a clear audit opinion. We will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to comment on the accounts, which relate to 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2015. I do not see accounts for 2014 here.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The accounts for 2014 have already been submitted. There are two subsidiaries of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority and the 2014 accounts were submitted. When we were looking at the submission of accounts in the context of our special report, we identified that earlier financial statements had not been submitted to the committee. There are two companies so they were filing them with the Companies Office. The second one is Dublin Docklands Affordable Housing.

Chairman

Accounts for five years have been submitted for Dublin Docklands Affordable Housing.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The turnover in the year was nil.

Chairman

There was no activity. The Comptroller and Auditor General raises an interesting point. The committee asked that he provide a report on all the companies audited by his office in respect of the timeliness of the report. As he indicated, some of the companies audited by his office have subsidiaries which we did not ask him to examine. It is not good enough that the committee is informed of the position regarding the parent company if it has significant subsidiaries which have not been captured by our request to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Does the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General also audit the subsidiary companies?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes, that is the case but they would have been consolidated into the parent company so with the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, the transactions would have been consolidated in group accounts and the group accounts were submitted.

Chairman

In other words, the Comptroller and Auditor General consolidated unaudited subsidiary accounts.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No, they were all audited.

Chairman

Why were they not published?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

They were lodged with the Companies Office by the Dublin Docklands Development Authority but they were not sent to Parliament.

Chairman

Was the Dublin Docklands Development Authority required to submit the accounts of subsidiaries to the Oireachtas?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is required under section 11 of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Amendment) Act to submit them.

Chairman

It is required to submit them.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes.

Chairman

We will be conscious in future that other companies may also have subsidiaries. Do any other major organisations have similar groups of subsidiary companies?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes, there would be - Bord na gCon and Horse Racing Ireland.

Chairman

For all the racetracks.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes, but they have been submitting the accounts for all of those companies.

Chairman

Have they submitted them directly?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The accounts have been coming to the committee, which has noted them.

Chairman

We may ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to provide the committee with a schedule of all the subsidiaries of Bord na gCon, including the various racetracks, and their final accounts, if they have all been audited.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

They are all up to date for 2015.

Chairman

That is good. It would be useful to the committee to have the list.

No. 5 is the work programme. Representatives of the Health Service Executive will appear today to discuss specific issues only. We will then have three meetings on education, one each with the Department of Education and Skills, Higher Education Authority and universities of Limerick, Cork and Galway. On Thursday, 6 April, we will meet representatives of other third level institutions. These have yet to be confirmed but they will be institutes of technology. There is a gap on 13 April which we have not filled. The committee can consider one of three different issues on that date, namely, direct provision, Bord na gCon or the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, to be published today, on the redress scheme. As this report, which is a look-back on the entire scheme concluding with Caranua, will be published later, Mr. McCarthy cannot disclose its contents now.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It will be published by 11 a.m. and will be made available to the committee.

Chairman

It is a special report to which the committee will revert. Direct provision has been raised on a number of occasions and members also wish to deal with Bord na gCon. Given that members have been asking for a meeting to discuss direct provision for several months, perhaps we will discuss the specific chapter on direct provision in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on 13 April.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Is the meeting with representatives of third level institutions on 6 April confirmed or may we discuss another topic on that date?

Chairman

We have been in touch with all the institutions and it is now a matter of confirming times. However, after three meetings on third level institutions, the committee will want to move on to other topics. For this reason, we are proposing to condense the discussion on higher education to three meetings. They will be long days if various groups each appear for one or two hours.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is terrible to be asked to choose between the three issues referred to by the Chairman. The special report on the redress schemes is very important work, which is also highly topical given the turn of events around the Tuam mother and baby home and the need to re-examine the issue of mother and baby homes. Not only is this work very important, but it could also be very useful in dovetailing with other things that need to be done. That is not to argue against dealing with direct provision or Bord na gCon. There are only so many weeks in the year.

Chairman

I have no doubt we will get to all three issues.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

May I ask-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

There is no guarantee that we will be here next year.

Chairman

I am an optimist.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The report is being published today and we will need to examine what it contains, but I am anxious that it not drift and that we will schedule it.

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Could we pull the sheet down further? Obviously, the committee has undertaken a large volume of work on Project Eagle. It took up a great deal of our time. Is there any capacity to hold two meetings every second or third week?

Chairman

I am open to that. Does the Deputy mean on different days or split between the morning and afternoon?

Deputy Alan Kelly

The report on redress is coming out, for example, but I am not sure that we can deal with it in one week.

Chairman

Do members wish to hold a special meeting on the redress report on another day while we continue with other meetings?

Deputy Catherine Connolly

As someone who attends on a regular basis, I would have no difficulty with that, but it is impossible to keep this pace up and people have not attended other extra meetings. Theoretically, it is wonderful. In practice, it is difficult. Deputies are attending other meetings. We are running in and out. Let us be realistic. We have given it our all to produce the report on Project Eagle. The Chairman knows that more than anyone. Let us not decide to have second meetings when it is impossible and would take from other business. People do not attend. I have attended meetings where we needed to find quorums or the meetings were cancelled. While I respect what has been said, the reality on the ground is far from easy. We would have to give this level of commitment at two meetings. I am repeating myself and will not have made my point.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

It is difficult, given that we are all sitting on other committees, sometimes simultaneously. We must strike a balance between trying to be realistic, as Deputy Connolly stated, and trying to get through our workload.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I have no issue. I probably understand that more than anyone. This week, I was committed to six or seven meetings because I am on three committees. I am on a committee that usually sits at the same time as this one. However, there are topics that we would normally have got through by now but we have not been able to because of Project Eagle. Everyone is working hard, but we might be able to address the redress issue separately while getting on with our normal work programme. Otherwise, the issues of direct provision and Bord na gCon - I have been pushing on the latter for a long time - will not get onto our work programme for a considerable period.

Chairman

I notice in the schedule that there is a two-week gap between meetings over Easter. We will meet on 13 April and then 4 May. The Dáil will be off for that period, but there is nothing stopping us from having a Thursday meeting. The committee does not have to skip almost three weeks because of the Easter recess. We will certainly take Easter week or whatever it is. The dates in question are 20 and 27 April.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

That will certainly put it up to the committee.

Chairman

The meeting does not have to be on a Thursday if it is not a Dáil sitting week. I propose that we use one of those two weeks for a meeting, although obviously not Easter week.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Which week, then?

Chairman

The week of 27 April.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Just to make a point, 13 April is Holy Thursday and the following week is Easter Week, which is a bank holiday week. The week of 27 April would be a normal work week.

Chairman

We should schedule for-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

We do not have to have the meeting on a Thursday.

Chairman

We could hold it on a Wednesday.

Deputy Alan Kelly

If some members will not be present, we could hold it on the Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday.

Deputy David Cullinane

Are we prevented from sitting on a holy day?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Absolutely.

Chairman

Holy Thursday.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Holy Thursday is scheduled as a sitting day.

Chairman

The Dáil is closed the week after Easter, not the week of Holy Thursday. We should definitely have a meeting the week after that, though.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I suggest that the items listed for 4 and 11 May are not particularly time sensitive.

Chairman

We can shove them back.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

They could be deferred.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

We could reschedule.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There is nothing in terms of timing-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

May I make a suggestion?

Chairman

We will make progress.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I will try to be helpful. Could we examine the report when it is published today?

Chairman

It will be out today.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Deputy Connolly is right to caution that we should not bite off more than we can chew. We can assess the report and determine whether it is possible to reschedule.

Chairman

I do not want to reschedule the meetings that have been arranged with the universities.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Fine. There are three issues before us that we believe are important. The Comptroller and Auditor General has made the helpful suggestion that the 4 and 11 May meetings, while necessary, are not time sensitive. Is that correct?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Could we fit in the three issues and then revert to the other two?

Chairman

They might move back a week or two.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Possibly up to three weeks.

Chairman

For next week, we will ask for-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

A schedule that includes the three issues in question and pushes the other two back, given that they are not-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

What are the three?

Chairman

Direct provision,-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Direct provision is already scheduled for that day.

Chairman

It is not. It is on the list, but there is no date for it. We need a date for the direct provision chapter.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I put this in my diary. It was provisionally listed for April.

Chairman

It was definitely mentioned.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

For 13 April.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

That was discussed.

Chairman

But we did not sign off on the work programme. The three issues are direct provision, Bord na gCon and the special report on the redress scheme. Is that the right title?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

"Cost of Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress".

Chairman

We will ask the secretariat to provide at our meeting of Thursday week a revised work programme incorporating these three topics. Is that agreed? All three will be scheduled. If we must move the Revenue and Department of Finance meetings back a week or two, so be it. We will still get to them in the month of May. That is helpful. We will have a revised work schedule for our next meeting.

Sitting suspended at 9.47 a.m. and resumed at 9.50 a.m.