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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 6 Apr 2017

National University of Ireland Galway: Financial Statement 2013-2014

Dr. James Browne (President, National University of Ireland Galway) called and examined.

We will continue our discussion on issues relating to third-level education. In the sessions this morning, we met representatives from the Waterford Institute of Technology, Dublin Institute of Technology and the Grangegorman Development Agency to discuss their financial statements. In this session, we will deal with the financial statements of the National University of Ireland Galway. From there, we are joined by Dr. James Browne, president, Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain, an runaí, Ms Mary Dooley, bursar, and Mr. Keith Warnock, capital projects adviser. From the Department of Education and Skills we are joined by Mr. Christy Mannion and from the Higher Education Authority by Dr. Graham Love, Mr. Damien Kilgannon and Ms Jennifer Gygax.

I remind members, witnesses and those in the Gallery to please turn off their mobile phones. I wish to advise that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of that evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I will call first on Ms Drinan from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General to make a brief opening statement.

Ms Colette Drinan

The financial statements before the committee in this session relate to NUI Galway's financial year ending on 30 September 2014. In that year, the university recognised income totalling €269 million and realised an overall surplus of nearly €2.8 million. Academic fees, totalling over €101 million, represented the university's largest category of income – nearly €37 million of that figure was received directly from the HEA. As is evident from the graphic in the presentation on the screen, in addition, recurrent State grant funding totalled €46 million, and State funding for pensions amounting to €44 million was also recognised. Grants in support of the university’s research activity totalled €53 million. The university’s total expenditure in 2013 to 14 was €266 million, with pay and pensions accounting for more than two thirds of that figure. A detailed analysis of the university's operating expenses, totalling nearly €70 million, is provided in note 7 of the accounts.

The Comptroller and Auditor General’s audit opinion in respect of the financial statements was unqualified. However, a number of matters were raised in his audit report. These include a standard note for the university sector on the reasoning behind the recognition of a deferred pension funding asset and the committee will recall that the Comptroller and Auditor General outlined the background to that issue in his opening comments during the meeting with the HEA last week.

The university’s statement of accounting policies notes that the results of Galway University Foundation Limited have not been consolidated with those of the university group, on the basis that the foundation is not controlled by the university. The foundation’s main purpose is to engage in fund-raising activities for the purposes of the furtherance of education and research carried out by the university. The financial statements recognise an amount of €17.5 million due from the foundation to the university at 30 September 2014 in respect of capital projects that were completed in 2011. The audit report also draws attention to the fact that the foundation had net assets of nearly €58 million at the end June 2014, which indicates further substantial funding expected to become available to the university.

The audit certificate also draws attention to instances of procurement non-compliance noted in the course of audit, with payments totalling just over €1 million made by the university to eight suppliers during 2013-14 in respect of goods and services that were not subject to competitive public procurement.

The recent special report on financial reporting in the public sector identified NUI Galway as one of two universities that had not completed their financial reporting for either 2012-13 or 2013-14 by the end of 2015. The audits for both of those years have since been certified - in April 2016 and November 2016, respectively. While some progress has been made in bringing the timeline forward on the 2014-15 audit for NUI Galway, it is the least advanced audit in the university sector for that period.

I thank Ms Drinan and call on Dr. James Browne to make his opening statement.

Dr. James Browne

I should introduce my colleague, Mr. John Gill, who is joining us. I thank the committee for the opportunity to respond to the questions it raises. We are happy to do so. I have sent a document on behalf of the university which deals with most of the issues as comprehensively as we can.

Someone's mobile phone is buzzing. It is not sufficient to switch telephones to silent mode because when e-mails are received it interferes with the recording system.

Dr. James Browne

Sorry.

There is no problem. I ask the witnesses to sort it out.

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

It is sensitive equipment.

Dr. James Browne

As I was going to say, we have sent in a comprehensive report on the issues that were raised by the committee and I hope it will meet its requirements. I will give a very short presentation initially and then we will take questions as they arise. I thank members for the opportunity to discuss the 2013-14 financial statements. I am here in my capacity as president of the university and chief financial officer. My colleagues have been introduced so I will not introduce them again.

In general, I believe NUI Galway has made very significant progress in recent years. We have been enabled to become leaders and to welcome leaders in teaching and research from all over the world. NUI Galway has continued to rise in the world recognised rankings, QS and Times Higher Education and is now ranked in the top 2% of universities in the world. We are also recognised in the top 200 most international universities in the world. I believe that is a significant achievement in the last number of years of austerity in the country and the third level sector.

Our research is recognised internationally, with significant success in recent times, particularly in acquiring EU funding where we are national leaders in terms of our ability to attract funding from the European Union Horizon programme. We are committed to being a top-ranked and research-led university and our students and graduates want and deserve no less.

Like other Irish universities, NUI Galway has faced many challenges, with increased numbers of students, lower staff numbers, changes in funding models and overall reductions in support available to the university. On funding, the sector and NUI Galway welcome the recommendations of the Cassells group on higher education funding. Those recommendations are being considered by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Skills and we welcome that. We understand that there are challenges involved in implementing these recommendations. However, we are acutely aware that they now need to be addressed and we wish to impress on the committee the importance of addressing that issue in due course.

However, today's business, the financial accounts of 2013-14, is somewhat different and we are here to provide the committee with material to address concerns it has raised, specifically regarding three issues, namely, the relationship with Galway University Foundation, non-compliance with procurement and the delay in production of accounts. I will take members through each of these very briefly. The details are in the submission.

The mission of Galway University Foundation is to advance the strategic priorities and academic objectives of NUI Galway. Its primary function is to generate financial support for our programmes and activities and it plays a vital part in the university's development. The foundation does not receive funding from the university or the State for its fundraising activities. The expansion of our campus in recent years by 40% in terms of square meterage would not have been possible without the foundation's support. Let me be clear about that and acknowledge the tremendous support of private donors and of the foundation in helping the university to achieve its goals. It is important to note that all the projects in question, which cost €300 million, have been completed without any debt on the State or university. That is in great measure due to the support of the foundation, which is able to leverage public money with and through private money. The foundation is absolutely critical for the university and its future. My experience would suggest that that is the case.

Turning to procurement, the university's policy is very clear. We wish to encourage best practice, establish policy and procedures, provide training and advice, monitor compliance and co-ordinate procurement, both locally and in collaboration, where appropriate, with national partners. In recent years, the university has devolved procurement activities and established what we term decentralised centres of excellence in procurement in the university in major areas such as buildings and estates, information systems and also library services. This has been a significant success for the university. We welcomed the establishment of the Office of Government Procurement and we certainly support its development. The transition to this centralised national approach has not been without challenges and we respect that. However, we acknowledge that significant progress has been made and we believe that the office is now working well with the university.

The third issue raised by the committee was the delay in the accounts. Let me explain very briefly. The university produces two formats of annual financial statements each year - the so-called HEA funding statements and GAAP format financial statements. Both are audited by KPMG. The GAAP accounts are audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The university adheres to long-established audit timelines. In September 2013, the university undertook a detailed review of the appropriateness of its accounting treatment due to a highly technical issue. This led to delays in the presentation of the financial statements to the university's governing authority. This had knock-on effects on the provision of subsequent financial statements. We can talk about the detail of that later on if members wish.

That is my opening statement. I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it. I and my colleagues are very happy to provide further clarification, if necessary.

I thank Dr. Browne. Before I call Deputy Catherine Connolly, the witnesses from the National University of Ireland Galway are the third group of witnesses to appear before the committee. They were preceded by representatives from Waterford Institute of Technology and Dublin Institute of Technology. The witnesses may have heard me express great displeasure at being presented with accounts covering the period 2013-14. The committee takes the view that it is not acceptable for third level institutions to present accounts from such a long time ago. Members were almost of the opinion this morning that the committee was wasting its time discussing such old accounts. In any event, given the importance of the issues to be discussed, we proceeded with our deliberations.

As I indicated to the representatives of the other institutions, the committee is insisting that the financial accounts for the financial year ending in the summer of 2016 be completed by the end of June 2017 and be ready for audit on 1 July. We are also asking that the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General have the accounts audited before the committee resumes its meetings in September 2017. We are asking third level institutions to have their accounts ready approximately 12 months after the end of the financial year, not within three, four or five months. It is outrageous that accounts from two or three years ago are being presented to the committee. We are not doing our duty in discussing issues dating back three or four years. We also want the Department and the Higher Education Authority to insist that financial statements are presented in the manner we have proposed. We do not understand how organisations can obtain funding in the annual Estimates process when they have not presented their accounts for the previous year or even two years. Dr. Browne gets my point.

Dr. James Browne

Absolutely.

The institutions must provide whatever resources are necessary to achieve this. It is all well and good witnesses telling us how wonderful their institutions are doing but we do not have any information for the past three years. We can only believe what we see in audits.

Dr. James Browne

If I can make one brief response, I completely accept the Chairman's valid criticism. We and the Comptroller and Auditor General must work together to deliver on those issues. There are particular circumstances here which the committee may wish to go into. They do not excuse everything but they certainly offer some level of-----

We understand that and we are making the point that the university has a few months to sort out the issue for the future.

Dr. James Browne

Point taken.

Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe arís. Tá beagáinín dul chun cinn déanta maidir le comhionannas inscne, buíochas le Dia. There is a little improvement in gender representation since this morning, which is to be welcomed. I welcome Dr. Browne and his colleagues. They will have noted the comment from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General that NUIG is bottom of the class, so to speak, in terms of its accounts and that has been accepted. Will Dr. Browne explain the reason for this?

Dr. James Browne

I might ask my colleague, Ms Mary Dooley, to explain why.

Ms Mary Dooley

We want to make it clear that, under the Universities Act 1997, we are required to produce our accounts for the previous year to the end of the previous September. So for the last 15 or 20 years, I have presented a set of accounts to the údarás in March of the following year, which is within six months. Not only are they the accounts that I would have produced-----

For the midlanders who do not understand, what údarás is Ms Dooley talking about?

Ms Mary Dooley

We call our governing authority Údarás na hOllscoile. I produce a set of completed accounts for our governing authority by March of every year, within six months of the year end. It is important to note that this set of accounts is not just the one that I present but that the auditors appointed by the governing authority have audited and cleared those accounts before they are presented to the governing authority. We meet the six-month requirement for production of accounts.

As I acknowledge the Comptroller and Auditor General has said, and we are of the same view, the timing of clearing the audits and making them available to the Committee of Public Accounts and so on is unacceptable to the university and obviously unacceptable to this committee and to the Comptroller and Auditor General. I would like to put on record that the university regrets any actions on our part that may have contributed to those delays. One or two of the years, as has been said and is in the report, were quite delayed. As the president has said, we are committed to working with the Comptroller and Auditor General's office to bring that right back within the timelines that he has now laid down by order.

Does Ms Dooley foresee any difficulties in complying in the future, from now on?

Ms Mary Dooley

I do not.

Great. So we can rely on that and we will have no issue with time delay next year.

Ms Mary Dooley

I would just say that there are two bodies involved in the audit of any organisation. Those are the organisation and its staff, and also the auditor and staff of the auditing body. I refer the Deputy to the Comptroller and Auditor General's recently published report, which I thought was excellent, frank and honest, about the various challenges that all public bodies and public auditors encounter in getting certified sets of accounts to the Committee of Public Accounts.

After all of that, is Ms Dooley happy that there will be no delay when she is back before us this time next year?

Ms Mary Dooley

I am happy that the university and I will do everything in our power to respond to the Comptroller and Auditor General's needs.

Non-compliance in procurement has been put in context and it seems small in the context of the overall spend. However, there are a number and it is quite a substantial sum. I understand that a committee has been put in place. Is that right?

Dr. James Browne

Maybe I should start-----

Let me ask the question. Is there a committee in place to maximise compliance with procurement? Does that report back to a management team? If so, what report has been given to the management team and what is the rate of compliance?

Dr. James Browne

The simple answer is "Yes".

Good. Yes to everything?

Dr. James Browne

Yes to everything.

What is the rate of compliance?

Dr. James Browne

I do not have the figure in front of me but I would say that it is 95% or 96%. I need to explain something, if I may. In the university, we have hundreds of budget holders - up to 1,000 of them. Some of these budgets are very small and some are quite large. We have to try to ensure compliance right across those budget holders. Some are very small research accounts. Some are huge budgets associated with computer services, libraries or buildings. In the last few years, the university has tried to create centres of excellence in procurement. The major procurement organisations in the university - estates, information services and systems, ISS, and the library - have been trained to follow procurement practice. We have also talked to all the individual departments, schools at the university and academic units which are purchasing-----

Can I just stop the president there? I understand that. I have read the briefing document. It is quite substantial and comprehensive. Following on from that, my question is on the compliance committee. Specifically, has the compliance committee reported to the management committee? If so, when and what was the result? I have read the document and all these measures-----

Dr. James Browne

Sure.

-----have been put in as a result of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report highlighting the issues. I will not use my time for that. Tell me the compliance rate.

Dr. James Browne

I do not have figures to hand and nor does the university do a calculation every year on compliance for procurement.

Dr. James Browne

I tried to explain the reason earlier. If there are hundreds or maybe 1,000 budget holders, it is very difficult to assess every single procurement and make sure the rules were followed. We issue the guidelines, we follow them and our procurement office follows them in so far as it possibly can but it is very difficult to ensure that every single procurement is compliant. An individual academic might buy a piece of research equipment. It is difficult to be certain that he or she has followed the rules exactly. We have done all that we can with training and having people who understand it in the main organisations and to support people. It is very difficult to ensure absolute compliance. It is the reality of a decentralised, democratic, flat-structured organisation.

I am not looking for absolute perfection. I am simply asking. Is there a committee to monitor compliance?

Dr. James Browne

The university management team.

Good. Has that reported back? Is the management team monitoring compliance?

Dr. James Browne

The procurement office reports to the management team of the university and it keeps us informed of developments in procurement.

When did it report as a result of these new proceedings?

Dr. James Browne

The procurement office reports regularly. I could not say exactly when it reports. I can find that out.

Maybe Ms Dooley could say.

Ms Mary Dooley

The Deputy may be referring to the internal audit service we instituted some years ago. It specifically monitors compliance with procurement. That reports on an annual basis. I have forgotten the date on which it reports.

So Ms Dooley will be able to come back and say that, either this year or last year, a report was given and the compliance rate is in that report.

Ms Mary Dooley

No, I am sorry. If I might just say, what the president has referred to is that we do significant levels of testing. That is the only way that we can judge compliance.

Ms Mary Dooley

Sampling. So, for example, our internal audit service does a standard sampling. We have a special service provided to us that we have procured to do a special sampling on procurement. The Comptroller and Auditor General samples procurement. We have our own external auditors. The auditors to the governing authority sample procurement. We are audited by every research body in the country and internationally, and every individual research contract is audited when we send in a cost statement. All of those auditors look at procurement issues. I cannot say that we are 90% compliant or 99% compliant. We monitor breaches of compliance. The sampling looks for breaches of compliance and we address them when we see them.

The university does not have other huge breaches. I will come back to Ms Drinan from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General and ask her to comment on what has been said. I am going to deal with the foundation and then I am going to go back to staffing. On the foundation, the witnesses have clearly stated that they do not have control of it but the foundation has control of itself. The Comptroller and Auditor General has said that has been pointed out and so the accounts should not be consolidated. How long has the foundation been in existence?

Dr. James Browne

From memory, 15 or 16 years perhaps. Since 1999.

Since 1999. Its purpose-----

Dr. James Browne

Its purposes-----

-----is a mixture, is it not? Is it right to say that it is education, research and capital?

Dr. James Browne

It has charitable status. Its purpose is to raise money in support of the university.

Is its primary purpose to raise money?

Dr. James Browne

In support of the university.

It raises money in support of the university. What in particular in the university does it support?

Dr. James Browne

Up to now, I would say the majority of funds it has raised have been directed towards capital. The university had a major capital deficit. This was something that I was very conscious of when I became president of the university. We instituted a major programme of development. We have spent €300 million on that programme in the past ten years. The foundation sought and won significant funding to back that programme. It also supports other activity, but the great bulk of its work up to now-----

Dr. James Browne

-----has been there. I should also, to be frank, say that is now changing, because the capital programme has been completed, in inverted commas. The orientation in the future is likely to be towards support of students and research.

When it was set up, was it set up specifically for capital projects?

Dr. James Browne

It was set up in support of the university and its needs.

So it could be interpreted according to the needs? Is that right?

Dr. James Browne

Absolutely, yes.

On that foundation, how many members of the university are there?

Dr. James Browne

On the foundation board, there are two out of 12.

Two out of 12. What is the gender breakdown of the two out of the 12?

Dr. James Browne

Right now, there are two males from the university on it. In the past, there would have been a female and a male.

Two males at the moment out of 12.

Dr. James Browne

From the university, out of 12.

What of the other ten then?

Dr. James Browne

I would have to think. From memory, there is a mix.

Ms Mary Dooley

Two max, I would say.

Dr. James Browne

There are more now. I would have to check that for the Deputy. If I had to guess, I would say four. I would have to check that because we have gone through some change recently.

It is important so.

Dr. James Browne

I agree.

Approximately four out of 12. It handles quite a substantial amount of money. What is the reserve that it holds now?

Dr. James Browne

I would have to check that again. It is a private organisation. My estimate is something of the order of €40 million. I have to be very careful of this because the word "reserve" suggests some level of discretion and that is not the case.

Okay. I went to college. I am here to just ask questions and elicit information. I would think that college is an environment that should ask questions. I have a difficulty when I hear it is a private organisation. It is a charitable organisation.

Dr. James Browne

Correct.

Okay. Therefore, I presume Dr. Browne has absolutely no difficult in sharing maximum information about that.

Dr. James Browne

None at all.

Dr. James Browne

Just to be clear, the accounts of the foundation are publicly available.

I have them in front of me. Has Dr. Browne any difficulty with the Comptroller and Auditor General looking at those every year?

Dr. James Browne

I understand the Comptroller and Auditor General has no authority to look at those.

That is not my question. My question was has Dr. Browne any difficulty or would the foundation have? Dr. Browne is on it.

Dr. James Browne

Excuse me, I need to be careful. I am here as chief financial officer of the university.

I will give Dr. Browne ample time. I do not wish to be unfair. I am asking two questions. Does Dr. Browne, as a member of the foundation and president of NUIG, have any problem with the Comptroller and Auditor General looking at the foundation accounts? My second question is, would the foundation have a problem?

Dr. James Browne

I cannot answer that question by saying, "yes" or "no". It is not possible to do that. I need to explain what my response is. Can I do that?

Dr. James Browne

I need a few moments to do this. University foundations, in my view, need to be separate from the university and there is a very good reason for that. I am talking about my experience here. There is no law in this regard. The experience that I have had in the university in the past ten years or so - I have spent, I would say, 15 years on the foundation board - has been that donors like to deal with independent foundations. One may well ask the question, why is that the case? That is the case internationally and it is the case in this country. I can give the committee, and I am happy to talk to the Comptroller and Auditor General, examples of individual donors who have done that. In fact, on our reserves - that is the reason I mentioned that the reserves are not as big as they appear in the accounts - there is some money in that foundation which is for a third party, through a donor.

What does that mean?

Dr. James Browne

Just what it says, a third party.

Sorry, I do not understand what that means. What does Dr. Browne mean, "for a third party"?

Dr. James Browne

Maybe I should finish what I was saying and then I will come back to that. My point is that foundations need to be at arm's length from the university in order to deal with donors and also, very importantly, to provide reassurance to donors that the purpose for which their donation is intended is being realised. The foundation acts effectively as a guardian of the donor's funds. The donor gives funds to the foundation in anticipation of funding a certain project or certain activity. When the donor is satisfied that project is complete or that activity is under way, then the foundation, as guardian, releases those funds to the university. The university, of course, goes ahead with the project in the expectation of donor funds being released. That, to my mind, is best practice. That, in my experience, is best practice in foundations. That, to me, is why it is so important to separate the foundation from the university. I think that is the reality of what happens around the world where foundation and philanthropy is well developed. Philanthropy in Ireland is not well developed.

I will interrupt the president there, if he does not mind, because I have a limited time to ask questions. I know the president's opinion because he gave a briefing document. He reiterated it today. Now I am asking the president questions. That is all I am doing here, really. In his response, Dr. Browne states in his opinion it is important that it is independent.

Dr. James Browne

Correct.

I am not asking for it not to be independent. I am trying to elicit information on the management of it, the interplay with the university and whether Dr. Browne would have any objection, first, as president, that the Comptroller and Auditor General would look at the accounts and, separately, as a director of the foundation.

Dr. James Browne

The Deputy has asked a direct question and my answer is that I would. I believe the foundation needs to be independent. The foundation is audited and works through the Companies Registration Office. It works through the charities board. It works to the highest standards. Its accounts are transparent.

What is the difficulty?

Dr. James Browne

My view, which the Deputy has asked for and which I will give her, is, and my experience suggests, that it is best to be independent.

What would be negative about an office with the standard and calibre of the staff in the Comptroller and Auditor General's office doing that?

Dr. James Browne

There is nothing negative. The Comptroller and Auditor General does a fabulous job, a tremendously professional job. I have no issue with that at all.

I am not commenting on the Comptroller and Auditor General. I am asking Dr. Browne what would be the downside for the foundation of its accounts being looked at by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Dr. James Browne

I have tried to explain - I repeat again - my belief is the two need to be independent.

Absolutely, I heard that. But what would be the difficulty? How would the independence of the foundation be damaged or affected?

Dr. James Browne

I believe it would be. I can only offer the Deputy my opinion.

Could Dr. Browne give any reasons?

Dr. James Browne

I believe it would be affected. I believe that in the public scrutiny of that type of an organisation which is essentially a private organisation, the Comptroller and Auditor General has no role with regard to the accounts of the foundation.

Would public scrutiny be a bad thing?

Dr. James Browne

The public scrutiny is achieved through the Charities Act and through the Companies Registration Office.

In relation to the reserves, would Ms Dooley be up to date about what money is there in the foundation as we speak?

Ms Mary Dooley

The Deputy has them before her - the accounts of the foundation which I took from the Companies Registration Office. The accounts to June 2016 show reserves of €52 million.

Some €52 million.

Dr. James Browne

Can I clarify that for the Deputy? Not all of that is due to the university. I am happy to discuss that with the Comptroller and Auditor General privately, if he so wishes. There is a third party involvement in that, which is completely above board and legitimate but which I would prefer not to discuss in public here.

I have only a certain length of time and Dr. Browne can talk me down. I do not mind. I will not argue with Dr. Browne if he disagrees with me but this is an open and accountable process. I am asking questions. Dr. Browne can answer them. I have asked Ms Dooley and she has given me the figure. I missed it again. I am just tired.

Ms Mary Dooley

I am sorry. The figure, at June 2016, is €52 million. I might just add, in addition to what the president has said, that the foundation gives the university money after the university has incurred the expenditure. That is to protect the donors. That is the US model. The foundation was built on the US model and so on. The capital money coming over to the university included in that figure is significant.

It goes after the project is completed.

Ms Mary Dooley

Yes.

NUIG builds different projects-----

Ms Mary Dooley

Yes, I suppose.

-----such as the engineering block and all of the other good blocks that have been build, and then it comes back.

Ms Mary Dooley

Absolutely.

One of the university's briefing documents states 40% of that has come from the foundation.

Dr. James Browne

Of certain projects, yes.

Two persons from the university, including Dr. Browne, who has very high status, sit on the foundation.

Dr. James Browne

Yes.

Is there no conflict of interest at all? That is not subject to public scrutiny. Would it not be good that it would be looked at by the Comptroller and Auditor General? Does Dr. Browne report back to the university then? Is his allegiance to the foundation?

Dr. James Browne

I am a director of the foundation board and I am required, as a director, to act in the interests of the company.

Absolutely, that is what I thought. We all, in different capacities, have sat on companies. One's allegiance is to the company. How does Dr. Browne marry that with his allegiance as president of NUIG?

Dr. James Browne

Because, frankly speaking, the company is only in existence to support the university. It is essential, in fact, that there be overlap in that sense because if the university is not able to communicate to the foundation board what its needs are, it is difficult to see how the foundation could help the university.

Okay. In relation to the foundation, how many people are employed?

Dr. James Browne

I believe nine.

Are they men or women?

Dr. James Browne

From memory, I think there are three men. I am just thinking off the top of my head. My belief is that there are three men and six women, but I may be wrong.

Three men and six women.

Dr. James Browne

That is my belief. I do not have that information in my hand. It is my best estimate. I may be wrong.

When did Dr. Browne last attend a meeting of the foundation?

Dr. James Browne

Its a foundation board. I attended about a month ago.

What was the breakdown? Dr. Browne gave me the breakdown of that.

Dr. James Browne

The Deputy asked me about the staff.

And these are the employees.

Dr. James Browne

I said there are nine employees.

Do those nine employees work from the university?

Dr. James Browne

No. They are employed through the foundation. It is a separate organisation.

Where do they work from?

Dr. James Browne

They work from a facility in the university.

They work from the university.

Dr. James Browne

They work from a facility in the university.

What does that mean?

Dr. James Browne

Just what it says. There is a building in the university which is considered to be the foundation building and they work in that. They are not university employees, if that is what the Deputy is getting at.

I did not ask Dr. Browne that. I asked him did they work from the university, "yes" or "no".

Dr. James Browne

They work in a facility in the university, a separate facility in the university.

Who owns that facility?

Dr. James Browne

The university does.

So they work from the university?

Dr. James Browne

If the Deputy chooses to use those words, yes.

Could the witness help me a little? Is my questioning over the top?

It is not.

Do they work for the university or not?

Dr. James Browne

They are in the grounds of the university.

Do they pay rent to the university?

Dr. James Browne

They do not.

Dr. James Browne

Because it is in the university's interests to maximise the contribution they make to the university. If we impose costs on a foundation of that nature, that would come from the income of the foundation and therefore detract from the income of the university.

Nine people work there. They work from the college. The foundation does not pay anything to the college. The university facilitates them in every way with issues such as back-up and administration-----

Dr. James Browne

No, we do not. It is an independent organisation. Payroll, accounts, HR and so on are done within the foundation.

Have any of the nine employees also been employed by the university?

Dr. James Browne

No.

Has any former vice president of the university come back to work? Are there any former university employees among that group of nine people employed by the foundation?

Dr. James Browne

I do not know off the top of my head. People have moved between the two but I do not know what the situation is at the moment.

Could the witness clarify that? How do they move between the two? Do they resign?

Dr. James Browne

They may apply for a job.

Do they have to resign from NUI Galway?

Dr. James Browne

Of course, yes. These questions are very detailed. Please excuse me if it is taking me a little bit of time to answer them. The foundation may advertise a post and a university employee may apply for it. In the same way, the university may advertise a post and a foundation employee may apply for it. He or she would get the job or not get the job in the normal way.

What sum is outstanding from the foundation to the university for capital projects?

Dr. James Browne

In the past two years, the university has drawn down just under €20 million from the foundation. The university's major outstanding item is the research funding. The university has recently completed a batch of three buildings - a sciences building, the Hardiman library and a clinical translation research facility. My colleague, the adviser on capital projects, is working with the accounts office to go through the fine details of the costs of those buildings. When that is completed, we will draw a further €20 million approximately from the foundation.

Is there €17.5 million still due from 2011?

Dr. James Browne

The practice of the university has changed in recent times.

I asked Dr. Browne a question: is there €17.5 million due to the university from the foundation since 2011?

Dr. James Browne

No. If I might explain, in 2013 the university decided to recognise on its accounts charges for the foundation which had been recognised prior to that through an exchange of letters. Most of that money has now been drawn down.

Could the witness repeat that?

Dr. James Browne

The university decided, in 2013, to recognise in its accounts funding due from the foundation. That has now been drawn down. Prior to that, we did not recognise the funding in the accounts.

When was it drawn down?

Dr. James Browne

As I have said, in the past two years just over €20 million has been drawn down.

So there is nothing outstanding from the foundation at the moment?

Dr. James Browne

There is money outstanding. We have not quite worked out the detail of how it will be paid or over what period. The Comptroller and Auditor General has advised us to put processes in place to ensure that the process for drawing down from the foundation is sound. In the past six months, the university has agreed a procedure with the foundation for drawing down funding.

Dr. James Browne

Any notion that the foundation is not funding the university in accordance with its aims is mistaken.

I did not come here with an agenda.

Dr. James Browne

I appreciate that.

I did not come here with any pre-conceived ideas. It is very difficult for me when that is being said or implied. I am simply asking questions. At the very least, the public deserves that. I am entitled to ask questions about a foundation which is responsible for between €57 million and €67 million, depending on which set of accounts one looks at. My life would be much easier if I did not ask questions. Would the witness accept that?

Dr. James Browne

Absolutely. I am sorry. I did not mean to imply otherwise.

Let us go back to what has been put in place as a result of the Comptroller and Auditor General's comments. What has been put in place and why was it not in place before? There was a formal procedure put in place for the transfer of funds from the foundation.

Dr. James Browne

That is correct. I am happy to share that with the committee if-----

Why did it take so long for that to be put in place? Why was it not done until the Comptroller and Auditor General made those comments?

Dr. James Browne

We had a procedure in place which was not formally documented. The Comptroller and Auditor General can speak for himself. However, my understanding is that he was concerned that there was not a formal, documented procedure. We have now documented the procedure. The Comptroller and Auditor General's advice was good advice and we have taken it.

What are the current procedures for soliciting funds?

Dr. James Browne

For soliciting funds from donors?

Dr. James Browne

This will take a few moments to explain but I am happy to do it. The foundation talks to the university. I encourage my colleagues in the foundation, such as the chief executive officer, to speak directly to the deans of the colleges, the heads of the research units, the registrar's office and colleagues across the institution and get a sense of what the university needs. They must recognise that philanthropy is most successful when donors are offered opportunities to engage with the university in areas which are of interest to them personally and, very importantly, are at the margin of excellence. That process is constantly engaged in. The chief executive of the foundation gets a sense of what the university needs. A meeting with the management team is then organised by my office and we work through a set of projects which I and the accounting team believe are in the interests of the university. He then creates a basket of opportunities and solicits funds with his colleagues for those projects.

A basket of opportunities.

Dr. James Browne

I missed the last comment. I am sorry.

A basket of opportunities.

Dr. James Browne

A basket of projects. That is the language that we use. I am sorry if it is unusual. We identify a set of opportunities which we call a "basket". We then seek out potential donors to support those projects.

What is the staffing level of the college?

Dr. James Browne

Of the university?

I call it the college. The witness will be able to tell my age from that habit.

Dr. James Browne

There are approximately 3,000.

There are 3,000 staff.

Dr. James Browne

Sorry, I will just speak here. There are approximately 1,700 full-time equivalent employees, FTEs. When I mentioned a figure of 3,000, I was including many part-time employees.

There are 1,700 full-time employees?

Dr. James Browne

No, there are 1,700 full-time equivalent staff. Ms Dooley has the relevant data so perhaps she should answer the Deputy's question.

Ms Mary Dooley

In December 2008, there were a total of 2,100 staff at the university.

That is for 2008. What about December 2016?

Ms Mary Dooley

We had 1,670 full-time core staff of the university in 2008. That dropped to 1,493 in September 2016. That was due to the employment control frameworks and so on.

What number of staff were employed at the university in December 2016?

Ms Mary Dooley

A total of 2,116 staff are employed in the university.

How many of those are part-time employees?

Dr. James Browne

We can supply that information to the Deputy.

Do the witnesses not have it now?

Dr. James Browne

I do not have it in front of me. I appreciate that these are valid questions but I did not expect them to be asked.

It is part of ensuring value for money which is the aim of the Committee of Public Accounts. How many staff are employed in part-time jobs through agencies, consultants or recruitment firms?

Dr. James Browne

There is a very small number of people employed through agencies. Speaking from memory, we use a single agency to provide short-term cover in the area of administration. I can supply the committee with further information by way of letter.

There is just one agency used?

Dr. James Browne

I believe so but I would have to check. Perhaps my colleague, Mr. Gill, would know.

Mr. John Gill

We went through a procurement process and appointed an agency that provides us with part-time staff.

Is there definitely only one agency?

Mr. John Gill

There is one agency which provides us with primary staff. There is another agency which we use in the event of the primary agency not being able to provide us with staff.

So there is one primary agency and one default agency?

Mr. John Gill

Yes.

How many staff are procured through the agency?

Mr. John Gill

The equivalent of approximately 50 full-time support staff.

They are not actually full-time, though.

Mr. John Gill

No. If people are looking for backfill positions, they may take people on in part-time roles.

What does "backfill" mean?

Mr. John Gill

If someone takes leave of absence for maternity or any other reason, they may be backfilled. The person who is on leave is replaced on a temporary basis until they return.

Do I take it that the vast majority of staff in UCG are permanent and full-time?

Dr. James Browne

There are significant numbers of research staff and they are on contract.

Are there assistant teacher jobs in the college?

Dr. James Browne

I do not recognise that title. There are certainly part-time staff on the academic side.

Does the role of assistant lecturer exist?

Dr. James Browne

I do not believe we have an assistant grade. We have part-time assistants.

What does that mean?

Dr. James Browne

Every academic unit has a part-time assistants budget.

Is this for lecturing?

Dr. James Browne

It is in support of the academic mission. It could be lecturing, tutorials, running laboratories or anything associated with the academic programme.

Does Dr. Browne have a breakdown of the gender balance of those jobs?

Dr. James Browne

I do not have it now but I can provide it.

What is the situation as regards gender? Galway does not have a very good reputation in this area, to put it mildly. Does Dr. Browne agree with that?

Dr. James Browne

Like all third level institutions and society in general, the university has a challenge in that space.

I do not accept that answer. I have looked at the HEA report and it is in the university's interest to have gender equality.

Dr. James Browne

Absolutely.

That has not been achieved in Galway.

Dr. James Browne

That is correct.

There was one very public case and there are five pending cases.

Dr. James Browne

Does the Deputy want me to address that here?

I am not mentioning anybody-----

Dr. James Browne

I will not do so, either.

It is in the public domain, however, that there are five cases. At what stage is that issue?

Dr. James Browne

I will need a few minutes to explain. The university has a process for promotions to senior lecturer. On the fourth run of that system in 2008-09, the result was terrible, in that we promoted 16 people of which one was female. Prior to that, the results had been more balanced and there had not been a cause for great concern. When the result came out, the university was very concerned, as it should be, and it brought in experts to look at the promotion process, who revised it completely. The next scheme was not until 2013-14 as there had been a ban on promotions in universities brought about by the austerity measures. The processes in this round were very different. The same basic principles applied, such as academic peer reviews by colleagues and rankings on the basis of academic output, but there were a number of important differences arising from the advice of gender experts. One difference was a tremendous level of granularity in the assessment of candidates.

Dr. James Browne

Granularity. The process requires us to assess an academic on his or her teaching, research and contribution. We took each of the three areas on the advice of external experts and defined what we meant by research excellence across a set of measures. For example, we might look at the number of PhDs supervised, the income generated, where appropriate, or papers published, books published, citations generated and a whole series of metrics. We then did the same with teaching and contribution. Such granularity forces people to provide evidence for their decisions.

The second big change was, for the first time in this country, a gender quota, which we introduced in 2013-14. We insisted that the outcome would be that at least 30% of colleagues being promoted were female. Some six months after the process was completed, the Equality Tribunal made a judgment about an application by an individual who had been assessed and failed in the 2008-09 round. The tribunal required us to promote the individual who brought that case.

That case predated all the changes the university brought in.

Dr. James Browne

The judgment postdated the changes. I think it was in November of that year.

The action was taken before the changes.

Dr. James Browne

Correct. May I continue?

I have given Dr. Browne five minutes already.

Dr. James Browne

I would be happy to give further information as required. If the Deputy wants to talk about it in private-----

I wish to discuss things in public but I do not know how long the Chairman will give me.

I will give the Deputy further latitude.

Dr. James Browne

One individual won her case and the university promoted her. At that point, five other individuals who had competed in the 2013-14 round made cases based on the 2008-09 round. They chose, as was their right, to take us to the High Court. I regret that and one of them has since withdrawn the case, meaning there are four female colleagues with cases in the High Court. I appreciate the tremendous stress they are under but I would have preferred it if they had taken us through our own procedures. They chose not to, and that is their right. It is difficult for the university but the university and I have no choice. When High Court proceedings are lodged, we must answer them. Neither I nor the university have the authority to promote anybody without due process.

Is Dr. Browne happy with the culture of gender inequality that was pervasive at UCG?

Dr. James Browne

I am happy that the university is doing everything in its power to address what is a societal question.

Was he happy with the pervasive nature of gender inequality in NUIG?

Dr. James Browne

I have one regret, which is that after the 2008-09 promotions round, I made a mistake in assuming that the issue was fundamentally about promotions, when the issue was much wider. I did not appreciate that then but I appreciate it now, as does the sector. We tried to fix the promotion system and I believe we did that in the 2013-14 round but we are now trying to fix the bigger issue. We brought in a task force and this made a set of recommendations which were absolutely in line with those of our colleagues in the HEA, who brought in a task force after our own. I am quite proud of that, and of the fact that the university has tackled the issue head-on. I believe we are going to solve it.

Has Dr. Browne seen the report on the Athena SWAN culture survey? I do not believe NUIG has ever received the Athena SWAN award.

Dr. James Browne

We have not.

Hopefully the university is working towards it and I know Dr. Love will come back shortly on that.

Dr. James Browne

We have an application going in at the end of April.

The money is determined. Has Dr. Browne read the comments from the vast majority of people who were surveyed, some 1,000 people?

Dr. James Browne

I am not sure to what paper the Deputy is referring.

I am referring to the report on the Athena SWAN culture survey carried out on Galway university.

Dr. James Browne

What is the date of the report?

Funnily enough, there is no date on it. As part of the consultation process for an Athena SWAN university bronze award submission, the self-assessment team conducted a survey of 964 staff. Is Dr. Browne familiar with it?

Dr. James Browne

I am, but I have not read it in the past 12 months.

Dr. Browne should read it.

Dr. James Browne

I read it when it appeared but I have not done so recently.

I apologise. I thought he said he had not read it.

Dr. James Browne

I did not read it recently.

Dr. Browne should re-read it because the majority of responses were critical of the workplace culture in the university.

Dr. James Browne

I agree.

Dr. Browne agrees.

Dr. James Browne

Yes, I know that to be the case.

When I started in college I was hugely proud of the university. In the past number of years, I have been totally embarrassed by it. I can pick any quote from the report. The vast majority of the 964 staff, which is almost 50% of the staff, were critical.

Dr. James Browne

Yes. The Deputy is referring to a report which was done about 15 months ago.

There is no year on it.

Dr. James Browne

I will have to check.

It has to be recent enough.

Dr. James Browne

It was done in advance of the submission to Athena SWAN last year which failed. It is about 15 months ago. I have no choice but to accept the evidence that is before my eyes. It is correct that the university has an issue with gender equality, as all universities have.

I agree with Dr. Browne.

Dr. James Browne

I am quite happy to start off by trying to fix it on the basis of knowing where we stand.

There is more gender representation at the table than there was this morning but I am afraid NUIG comes out at the bottom of the league on gender equality.

Dr. James Browne

It is correct. I am not proud of it.

I thank the Chairman. He was very patient.

I am happy to do that. Does Deputy Cullinane have any questions?

I have questions on three themes. I am not sure what time I have. Do I have five minutes on each theme?

The Chairman might give me a holler after five minutes. I welcome Dr. Browne and his team. NUI Galway is one of my favourite universities although I did not study there. Before I ask any questions, I will direct a comment at the Chairman. I do not say this so much in response to Dr. Browne's responses, although there has been an element of it. As members of the Committee of Public Accounts we need to be very clear with witnesses that we have a job of work to do. There is a tetchiness to some of the responses which I feel is unnecessary. We have genuine questions to ask. There has been some of that this morning and it was carried outside the committee room by a president of an institute. It is not appropriate. We have to do our job without fear or favour. We have questions to ask which we will put. I, for one, will not be put off by asking what I believe are appropriate questions. I sensed a bit of tetchiness although not as bad from-----

Dr. James Browne

I am sorry if I gave that impression.

It may not have been-----

Dr. James Browne

I am a robust individual but I am happy to answer any questions the Deputy asks.

My frustration was not with Dr. Browne at all.

Dr. James Browne

I am sorry.

I just want to make that point.

Dr. James Browne

It is a fair point.

We will certainly make it to others who come in as well.

My first theme and set of questions comes back to the foundation. It is perfectly reasonable to have different opinions. It is perfectly reasonable for somebody to say there should be a complete separation in terms of governance between a university and a foundation. It is also reasonable for someone to say it should be closer and to give reasons for it. What I have noticed over the course of the appearances of the institutes before the committee is the existence of a number of a different organisations or bodies that have a relationship with an institute. We have it in Waterford for example with Diverse Campus Services, although obviously it was different. It was not under the governance of the institute. We had a discussion on spin-out companies and we are being told they are private companies but they are co-located in institutes. Where an institute is a shareholder we have a responsibility to ask questions about it.

Dr. James Browne

Absolutely.

Equally, there is a dynamic or synergy between a foundation and an institute. Dr. Browne said in response to one of the questions from Teachta Connolly, which is why I wrote it down, that the university recognised funding due to the foundation in its accounts.

Dr. James Browne

It was to the university from the foundation.

Yes, exactly. There is a synergy there.

Dr. James Browne

Yes.

Where there is a synergy, we should have an opportunity to be able to evaluate whether there are proper governance structures in place and so on. In response to questions from Teachta Connolly, Dr. Browne drew a distinction because he said it was a charity.

Dr. James Browne

It is a formal charity under the Charities Act.

Dr. Browne then said he would not be entirely satisfied with public scrutiny - as in our role and that of the Comptroller and Auditor General - because it is a charity and there is already oversight of charities. Is that characterisation fair or unfair?

Dr. James Browne

It is neither fair nor unfair. It is slightly mistaken. My belief is-----

Will Dr. Browne give me his view then?

Dr. James Browne

I will. My belief is it is essential that foundations are separate from universities, for reasons I have explained. My second point is that the charities commission oversees what the foundation does and does it very well. At the university, the foundation works completely in accordance with it. Charitable status is not easily acquired. It is a very onerous responsibility to register as a charity. The responsibilities are onerous and they are well maintained. My third point is that, as I understand it, the Comptroller and Auditor General is responsible for public money. There is no public money in the university foundation in Galway. Therefore, the Comptroller and Auditor General has no role in that regard.

Dr. Browne has made that point and that is his view. I do not believe there is sufficient oversight of charities in this State. We have had a history of a large number of charities which have had to come before the Committee of Public Accounts. The HSE has had to come before the Committee of Public Accounts. There was an absolutely appalling lack of governance and controls. That is not to say it is rampant or evident in every charity but we should not suggest that because we have sufficient levels of oversight in the charity sector we should be satisfied. I am not satisfied. While there is no public funding, as Dr. Browne put it, because it is funding that comes from individuals, where there is a very close synergy and where money is transferred from a foundation to an institution, there is a need for a re-examination of the current structures. That is all I am saying. It is my view and Dr. Browne can hold an entirely different view.

Dr. James Browne

May I offer a comment? The Deputy is right about the past. There was not sufficient oversight but that has changed a lot in the past two years. Anybody who is involved with a charity knows that. There has been tremendous oversight in recent years. There has been tremendous change. In my view it is a welcome change. I am satisfied that if Galway foundation was to be looked at from that perspective it would come out very clean. There has been a big change in the past couple of years in that regard. The Deputy is certainly right about the past.

If that is the case, I welcome it but unfortunately we have a lot of work on our desk which says something else. I appreciate it is a different sector and I appreciate there are different types of charities and different levels of governance so I accept that. I do not believe Dr. Browne's responses are unreasonable. I understand his logic-----

Dr. James Browne

I appreciate that.

-----but I have a different view. As much as possible where there are relationships between entities that have very close synergies with institutes of technology and universities, we need to look at the governance structures between them. We have already made a request to the Comptroller and Auditor General to look at some of that. I will come to a different issue later which will be my third topic but before I move off the foundation issue, I want to deal with the issue of casualisation of labour and some of the issues that were raised by Teachta Connolly. Dr. Browne understands the term, "casualisation".

Dr. James Browne

Yes.

The question was answered earlier. There are just over 2,000 staff in the institute. Is that correct?

Dr. James Browne

In the university, I think the number is larger than that. The figure the Deputy quoted is 2,000. The number of whole-time equivalents is 2,000.

That is the number of full-time equivalents. What is the average number of hours a week that staff work? If one divides the number of staff into the full-time equivalent positions based on whatever the average number of hours is for a normal worker, what is the average number of hours worked by staff at the university?

Dr. James Browne

I appreciate the question but I do not think the answer would help the Deputy even if I could give it because there is a range of staff in the university. There are support staff-----

I will be the judge of whether it is helpful or not.

Dr. James Browne

Let me try to give the information.

I am asking if Dr. Browne can give the average first and then we will explore-----

Dr. James Browne

I certainly cannot give the Deputy the average. Perhaps Mr. Gill might-----

Dr. Browne could give me a rough estimation and furnish me with the exact figure later. Does he have a rough estimation?

Mr. John Gill

There are different categories. We have what we call support service staff who work a normal working day five days a week. Some of them work part time and some work full time. There are people who, for family reasons, prefer to work a part-time role and other people are happy to work full time. That is a range within what we call the support service staff. We then have academics on full-time contracts teaching and researching.

Then we have people who have part-time teaching hours with us. Some of them come from industry to lecture on some of the courses. Some of them have part-time hours with us as part of their normal work.

I understand the distinction between all of those different roles but I would still like if Mr. Gill had even a rough estimation as to what the average hours for the total staff complement in the university would be.

If it would help the Deputy I will answer that for him. If the university has 1,493 full-time equivalents, FTEs, we multiply that by 39 hours as the normal working week, and divide it by 2,116, which is the number on the payroll, and the answer is 27.5 hours per week.

Would that be-----

That is an average and it does not take account of everything.

Dr. James Browne

I am very impressed by the Chairman's facility with numbers, if he does not mind me saying so.

It was a simple question and that is the simple answer. There is more behind it.

Dr. James Browne

It is an answer but I do not think the average means an awful lot. There is such a range of activity. That is what we are trying to say. I really am very impressed, though.

You are at the Committee of Public Accounts.

Dr. James Browne

Go raibh maith agat.

What is the cost of temporary administration staff at the university for 2015?

Mr. John Gill

I do not have an estimate with me, I am sorry. I will have to provide it later.

According to these figures which were given to me, which the witnesses may confirm or not, the costs of temporary administration staff at the university have risen from €980,346 in 2013 to €2,166,697 in 2015. Based on my calculations - although I do not have the same calculator as the Chairman - that is a 220% increase in two years. Would that be accurate information?

Mr. John Gill

I do not have that detail.

Could it be verified for us?

Mr. John Gill

We will verify it, yes.

Dr. James Browne

Just to say that this arises primarily from cover for people who opt to go part-time. That is where it arises from frequently.

Would Dr. Browne agree that there has been a growth in casualisation in recent years in the university?

Dr. James Browne

It is not a question I can answer easily. Research contracts are defined as contracts. If the university gets a grant from Science Foundation Ireland for a post-doc for three years, that individual has a three-year contract. We have no choice but to give the individual a three year contract.

Dr. Browne said earlier that he understands the term casualisation-----

Dr. James Browne

I do not agree that there has been a growth in casualisation. That is not casualisation, no - it is contract staff.

Could Dr. Browne furnish the committee with a report on casualisation within the university from 2008 up to the present day?

Dr. James Browne

Absolutely.

That would be helpful. When we have the figures, we can decide if there is an issue.

Dr. Browne might explain precisely what he understands by casualisation when he is writing it.

Dr. James Browne

That might be useful. The committee might give us a heads-up on what it wants in detail.

The committee members will inform the clerk to confirm that.

Dr. James Browne

That is no problem. There is no policy in the university of trying to casualise labour, let us be clear about that. In a university environment, staff are the critical resource. There is no policy to casualise anybody.

We will wait until we get the accurate figures in that report and we will see then. I want to move on to research and intellectual property, IP, commercialisation. The witnesses may not be aware that I have raised this with several presidents-----

Dr. James Browne

I heard this, yes.

-----who have been in from other institutions. Can Dr. Browne first explain to me how NUI Galway commercialises its IP?

Dr. James Browne

The university has a long history in this space. We were the first university in the country to have incubator units, going back to 1973. With the support of what was then the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards, IIRS, the university then created an incubator unit on the campus. We are very proud of that.

The university has significant research activity, funded primarily by third parties, including State third parties. That activity creates intellectual property. The university has policies with regard to the exploitation of that intellectual property. It has policies with regard to conflict of interests and all or any conflicts arising from intellectual property.

In terms of the exploitation of IP, the university incurs the cost of patenting intellectual property with the support of Enterprise Ireland. Exploitation can arise in a number of ways. One way is where a company, an external organisation, decides it wishes to purchase IP from the university. If that happens, the proceeds are shared within the university. We have a table which shows the precise break-out of those shares, which I can pass to the Deputy if he is interested. The money is shared between the university centrally, the school to which the individual belongs, and the individual who acquired the IP. That is all set out in our procedures. That is one way of exploiting it.

A second possibility is that an individual in the university who has created intellectual property which has been patented may wish to exploit it through a start-up company. The university supports that, with the support of Enterprise Ireland generally or with the support of other similar organisations, and the university takes a share in the company. The individual will also have a share in the company, which then proceeds to do its business. The reality is that, over time, the university's share is diluted as further investments go in. If and when the enterprise is successful, if it is sold, the university then acquires the value of its shares.

I understand that from all of the other presidents who were in.

Dr. James Browne

Just to be clear, the last point is that in some instances, an individual who has created intellectual property may not wish to be involved in the start-up company himself or herself. In that case, a start-up company may exist in which the university has a share, while the individual will not have a share by his or her own choice but will take some royalty from the licence that the company will buy from the university for the technology. Those are the three examples.

Who in the institution would protect the interests of the institution?

Dr. James Browne

We have a technology transfer office, which conforms to the national guidelines in this regard. There are national norms and expectations.

Where does the technology transfer office report back to?

Dr. James Browne

It reports to the vice-president of research, who reports to me.

Would there be a commercialisation committee in place in the university?

Dr. James Browne

There is a committee within the technology transfer office, which looks at the possibility of commercialisation.

Does the head of research sit on that committee?

Dr. James Browne

Possibly he does, I cannot tell the Deputy off the top of my head.

And the financial controller? Is it the same across-----

Dr. James Browne

He does not sit on the committee but there would be access to financial acumen there.

So again, here is a different arrangement in place. It is different from some of the other institutions. There are variances in how the interests of the institutions are protected. There are different processes in place, as I see it. That is not to say there is anything wrong.

How many spin-outs would there have been in NUI Galway since Dr. Browne was president?

Dr. James Browne

I have that data somewhere here I think, if the members would give me a moment to find it.

While Dr. Browne is searching, would it be fair to say that the institution would take something of a risk, or rather that it would invest in many spin-out companies?

Dr. James Browne

No, by and large we do not invest.

The university takes a shareholding.

Dr. James Browne

We take a shareholding, yes.

What I mean is that these companies would avail of the resources of the institution.

Dr. James Browne

If they do, they pay for them.

Okay. My point is that some of them would be successful and some would not. That is the nature of it.

Dr. James Browne

Absolutely. The majority will be unsuccessful, frankly. Let us be honest. That is normal.

It is reasonable, then, to expect that the institutions would have the strongest shareholding possible, so that there is a return to the institution from those companies which are successful. Would that be fair?

Dr. James Browne

The university seeks an appropriate investment ----- sorry, an appropriate shareholding. We do not make an investment. We seek an appropriate shareholding in the context of the fact that the university sponsored the research that gave rise to the intellectual property.

Does Dr. Browne personally hold a shareholding in any spin-out company?

Dr. James Browne

No, I do not.

Has he ever held a shareholding?

Dr. James Browne

Years ago I did, yes, if the Deputy is asking me directly.

But he does not-----

Dr. James Browne

I do not have anything. If the Deputy is asking me a direct question I will give him a direct answer. Yes, I was involved in a spin-out from my research 15 years ago. It was sold and I acquired a small amount of money for it.

What was your position in the university at that time?

Dr. James Browne

I was a professor of engineering.

I do not need to know the name, but is the person who holds the office of head of research and innovation in the institution also a vice president?

Dr. James Browne

The person who leads research is the vice president, yes.

Does that person have a shareholding in any spin-out companies?

Dr. James Browne

The honest answer is that I do not know but I can find out for the Deputy.

Dr. Browne does not know.

Dr. James Browne

No, I do not know.

If the vice president had a shareholding in multiple companies, would that surprise Dr. Browne?

Dr. James Browne

It certainly would, yes.

Why would that surprise him?

Dr. James Browne

It would be very difficult to have a shareholding in multiple companies. As it happens, our vice president is a bio-scientist-----

Why would it be very difficult?

Dr. James Browne

The only reason one would have a shareholding in such a company is because one is bringing something scientific to it and it is very difficult-----

If the institution's head of research was a shareholder in four spin-out companies, would that be of concern?

Dr. James Browne

It would be a concern if I did not know it, if he had not gone through the appropriate-----

If Dr. Browne did know?

Dr. James Browne

If he did not go through the appropriate procedures, it would be of concern to me.

The commercialisation and technology transfer policy of one institute refers to a commercialisation committee. The commercialisation committee members include the head of research and innovation, the financial controller and a third person. The policy holds that members of the commercialisation committee who are or who could reasonably be perceived to be in a conflict of interest situation with respect to any matter before the committee should excuse themselves from all involvement with the committee on such matters.

Dr. James Browne

Absolutely.

It goes on to say that any individual who is related to, reports to or is a business partner of someone who would be considered to have a conflict of interest would also have a conflict of interest. Let us say we have a situation - we do not know if it is the case in Dr. Browne's institution - where the head of research was a shareholder in three or four spin-out companies. Further, the people with whom he has a shareholding, namely, his business partners also have shareholdings in different companies. There are possibly up to a dozen companies involved in total. Does Dr. Browne think it would be possible for that person to sit on the commercialisation committee and to have the commercialisation office or the technology transfer office report back to him?

Dr. James Browne

I can only comment in a general sense. I cannot comment on what other institutions do but I can tell the Deputy that I would consider it to be fundamentally-----

I am asking about the process, not any individual-----

Dr. James Browne

Any individual who is involved in a spin-out or a start-up company would have to make that known to any part of the organisation which makes decisions on it. He or she would have to declare a conflict of interest and that is what would happen. That is what would be expected.

Dr. Browne would understand-----

Dr. James Browne

He or she should not be involved in the process.

I am not suggesting but Dr. Browne is being evasive. He is answering the questions very fairly, with respect. I am trying to be fair to the individuals involved. I want to make sure that in every single higher education institution in this State we have robust systems in place to protect that institution.

Dr. James Browne

I respect that.

I also want to make sure that, as far as possible, we have an arm's-length separation between people who have executive, governance and management roles and people who are in the innovation space, in terms of spin-outs and commercialising them for personal gain and for the gain of others. Such activity creates jobs and so on but if there is personal gain involved, there is an obvious conflict.

Dr. James Browne

Absolutely.

It may involve multiple companies and the shareholders in those companies, that is, business partners, may have shareholdings in other companies. If the person involved is the owner of policy and sits on a commercialisation committee-----

Dr. James Browne

That is unacceptable.

Unacceptable. Dr. Browne would say that is unacceptable-----

Dr. James Browne

I have to say, frankly speaking, the principles the Deputy enunciates are clear to me and are practised in NUI Galway. I can think of examples, as we speak, of situations where individuals have been involved in businesses-----

It would be unacceptable, in Dr. Browne's view-----

Dr. James Browne

-----and they have declared a conflict of interest and have absented themselves completely from all discussions. That is what I would expect.

Can Dr. Browne understand my concern if what I described was actually the case? What I have described would be a matrix of conflicts of interest. It would almost be impossible to disentangle oneself from up to a dozen companies in which one or one's business partners had a share holding. How could one effectively do one's job in the first instance? Would the job of head of research and vice president be well paid?

Dr. James Browne

Yes. It would command a professorial salary.

It is a very well paid job. It would also be a very demanding job.

Dr. James Browne

I agree.

One's attention should be 100% on the job for which one is getting paid.

Dr. James Browne

Absolutely, yes.

Before we move off this issue, I wish to put something to Dr. Love. We had a discussion earlier about an independent or external examination or review of one institute. We have just heard from another higher education president who has given his view on the matter. He used the word "unacceptable". I have been raising very similar concerns and I need to know before I leave here today that the concerns I have raised, which are genuine, reasonable and are in the best interests of all institutions, will be addressed.

If nothing else comes of this, we must at least tighten up on the relationship between people in management and governance roles and spin-out companies. However, we cannot just examine whether there was compliance with rules within an institute. There must also be a thorough examination of the differences and variations between the institutes. We must examine whether it is appropriate for heads of research and presidents of institutes to have shareholdings in companies in which they have an obvious role and where everyone accepts there is a conflict and whether it is possible to manage those conflicts. In that context, I have concerns.

Dr. Love has expressed his view but it does not tally with my world view. I want be sure that the external review will have very strong terms of reference and will examine all of these issues. The review cannot just focus on whether a policy was adhered to but also on whether the policy itself is appropriate. It must assess whether there is sufficient arm's-length separation between people who hold very senior posts in educational institutions and people who have a connection with spin-out companies. That is very important but I am not sure, from what I have heard this morning, that the external review is the best possible way to do that. I fear that it could be a desktop examination of somebody else's work, which is not appropriate.

Dr. Graham Love

We only got the request for an external review yesterday so we have not had a chance to define the terms of reference yet. However, we would be very happy to share the terms of reference with the committee before we even kick off the review. That review is for one specific institute. The broader review that we are thinking of conducting and which we flagged last week would look across several institutes to see if there is variation in practice, as suggested by the Deputy, if practice is in accordance with the principles of the intellectual property protocol and if policy is being implemented in accordance with those principles. We have already said that we will deliver on that.

I have made the Chairman aware of comments - which I will not make public, to be fair to the person involved - that were made to me by an individual or a witness who gave evidence here this morning. We need to be able to do our job without fear or favour. We do so diligently, fairly and without prejudice at all times and we need to be able to do that job. Sometimes it can be very difficult when one is asking questions about an institution in one's own area but that is our job and function. I would hope that the Chairman will give protection to members of this committee to allow us to do that job.

I have two quick questions for Dr. Browne. In his opening statement, he said something that is news to me. He said that the university produces two formats of annual financial statements each year, the HEA funding statements which are audited by KPMG, and the general accepted accounting principles, GAAP, statements, which are audited by KPMG and the Comptroller and Auditor General. Why are there two audits?

Ms Mary Dooley

I can answer that. There are two sets of accounts that are talked of here, not so much-----

Financial statements.

Ms Mary Dooley

Yes, there are two sets of financial statements. The first is the traditional financial statement that has been around for 20 or 30 years. That talks purely to the core activities of the university itself, namely, its teaching and research mission. The GAAP accounts, as the Chairman knows, are consolidated accounts. Things like student residences and other commercial and subsidiary companies are incorporated into the GAAP accounts. The GAAP accounts are presented in line with GAAP accounting standards whereas the HEA-----

The generally accepted accounting standards. I still do not understand, and Ms Dooley will have to explain, why KPMG is auditing the same set of accounts as the Comptroller and Auditor General. I do not get it.

Ms Mary Dooley

The governing authority, under its remit, is responsible for all of the activities of the university and the governing authority, I understand, in its own right, wishes to be advised by auditors that everything that is going on - financially, on campus and so on - is independently tested and that it gets a report. The role of the auditor is to report to the governing authority that everything is in order, that the accounts give a true and fair view.

I understand that. Why is the Comptroller and Auditor General's account not adequate for that purpose?

Ms Mary Dooley

As I understand it, the Comptroller and Auditor General's role is to report to this committee or to the Oireachtas and that he is focused on everything that the Oireachtas or PAC believes in terms of regulation.

I might ask the witness to come back to us. I do not think we have encountered this before. It has not emerged before that there are two sets of audited accounts. We will move on. I see on page 20, note 7 refers to external auditors €106,000 and internal audit €104,000. Is the internal audit function provided by KPMG?

Dr. James Browne

Is the Chairman reading the 2013-2014 accounts?

Yes. Does that external audit cover both the Comptroller and Auditor General and KPMG? I am sorry I have never heard of these two sets of auditors before.

Dr. James Browne

Did the Chairman say page 20?

Yes, the €106,000. What is the internal audit function? Is that sub-contracted?

Ms Mary Dooley

The internal audit function includes two staff members and a separate firm, not KPMG, another firm that comes in to do-----

Does that external audit fee cover both KPMG and the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Ms Mary Dooley

Yes. I am not 100% sure but I would think that it does.

Is it just historical that the university wants its own private sector audit?

Ms Mary Dooley

I think there is a real governance need for the governing authority to receive an independent report in relation to-----

In the note immediately below that, the majority of the university's activities are not liable for corporation tax. The corporation taxation charge in the period in respect of the trading activities administered through subsidiary companies amounted to €59,000. The university paid a corporation tax of €59,000 on income from subsidiaries. I would not expect the witnesses to have the list there but can they supply the list of the subsidiaries from which it received the income?

Ms Mary Dooley

It is in the set of accounts that was on the screen a few moments ago, the list of subsidiaries.

Which of them generated the surplus?

Ms Mary Dooley

The student residences and conferencing activity. Tionól Teo. is the conferencing activity and Atalia the student residences. To my knowledge they are the only two-----

That make a surplus------

Ms Mary Dooley

-----that are taxed.

Dr. James Browne

They are subject to corporation tax.

I am concerned when the university refers to the HEA funded statements and the other accounts for the Comptroller and Auditor General as if there are two sets of accounts. I have to draw the witnesses' attention to page 34. I have never seen this before. These are the university's accounts, not my accounts, I stress. It is on page 34 under the heading reconciliation of the deficit surplus between the two different sets of accounts.

Dr. James Browne

Yes.

That is what it states in simple English. One set of accounts goes to the HEA showing a loss of €1.742 million. At the bottom of the page the accounts that the Comptroller and Auditor General gets show a surplus of €2.843 million. I am utterly at a loss. I see the figures explaining the movement of €3 million or €4 million but I get concerned when I hear of one set of accounts going to the HEA showing losses of €1.7 million and the accounts that come to us are a different set showing a surplus of €2.843 million. I am absolutely bamboozled.

Ms Mary Dooley

I might just attempt to answer very quickly. The accounting rules under which what we call the HEA format of accounts is drawn up are different to the GAAP accounting rules. The main difference is, and the Chairman can see it there in three of the major figures, the first two are capital grant amortisation and reversal of capital project funding. We are taking €20 million------

Ms Dooley need not go through the differences.

Ms Mary Dooley

It is about the treatment of capital expenditure.

The last time we met an organisation with two sets of accounts, one going to one State body and a second going to another, was Console. It went bust. I am not comparing but when an organisation comes in here saying it has two sets of accounts for the same financial year, it sends all sorts of weird messages. Do the witnesses not see that page? Is the HEA aware that the sets of accounts it gets apparently are not the sets the Comptroller and Auditor General gets?

Dr. Graham Love

I want to be very clear on this - that is why I asked to come in earlier. Going back to the earlier point, which relates to this one, we have recommended that the single set of Comptroller and Auditor General accounts is the set of accounts used by the university. It also relates to the timeliness issue that was discussed earlier today and last week with the Comptroller and Auditor General to save time and progress that.

Does every third level institution have a set of accounts for the HEA and a different set for the-----

Dr. Graham Love

We certainly want the set of accounts to explain the Exchequer funding is there and we track that according to the HEA demands that are consistent with the Comptroller and Auditor General.

I am going to ask for the help of the Comptroller and Auditor General's office here. Are we now finding that every third level institution we have been dealing with - this has not been clear to the PAC for years - has two sets of accounts, one going to the HEA and a different set going to the Comptroller and Auditor General? Is the Comptroller and Auditor General happy working on one set at university level while we are looking at a different set here? The difference between them is a deficit in the accounts going to the HEA of €1.7 million and the accounts coming to the Comptroller and Auditor General showing a surplus of €2.843 million. That is a difference of €4.5 million between the two sets of accounts. I know the university is saying it is treated as capital expenditure but the witnesses must appreciate from the public point of view that it is utterly confusing. We have to get to the bottom of this and I will be asking for a comment on where we take it from there.

Ms Colette Drinan

Under the Universities Act 1997, the Comptroller and Auditor General is appointed the auditor of the universities and those audits are GAAP accounts. We audit a GAAP account.

Will Miss Drinan spell out that word? I understand it.

Ms Colette Drinan

It is generally accepted accounting principles, GAAP. The HEA separately requires universities, and this impacts only on universities now, to submit a funding statement. We have never audited that. We do not look at it. The HEA required it to be audited so the practice was for the universities to have commercial auditors to carry out that audit. The practice also, as mentioned by the bursar, was for the governing bodies to have commercial auditors to audit GAAP accounts for the governing bodies. That continues in all universities bar one where we carry out that role. I believe the HEA has recently changed the requirement for the funding statement to be audited.

The witnesses need to help us out here. We are now, at whatever time it is on a Thursday evening after 4 p.m., stumbling on the fact that all these august bodies have two separate sets of accounts showing fundamentally different bottom lines, a difference of €4 million between the two sets. We will want a report. I will ask the HEA or the Department of Education and Skills to produce this report with the Comptroller and Auditor General. We want to see the list of universities, the surplus in the accounts produced by the Comptroller and Auditor General, and the surplus or deficit produced. How many universities are affected by this?

Dr. James Browne

Seven.

We want a report on what is happening because we do not get it.

Ms Colette Drinan

I know in the committee's work programme it will examine the special report on financial reporting in the public sector. There is a section in that report which details the position with regard to universities and the situation with commercial auditors. That is down for examination by the committee.

Is the information I just asked for specifically in the report?

Ms Colette Drinan

No. The report deals with-----

Who can produce that?

Dr. Graham Love

We will follow up in respect of that.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee - who was here - is our head of system funding but as we had an international panel in, I had to let him go. The committee is benefitting from my three-week start and ignorance, for which I apologise.

No, do not apologise.

Dr. Graham Love

We will get it to the committee immediately.

Dr. Love can understand that we could have been concluding a report talking about one set of accounts and the accounts used by the HEA for funding purposes could differ by millions. Dr. Love gets my point. I am surprised by what has happened. I am not saying any of them are wrong but different financial assumptions are being used in the different sets of accounts.

Dr. Graham Love

I do not believe they are wrong but we will ferret out the explanation and furnish it with haste.

Did anyone else indicate?

I apologise for not being here for the opening statements. I was detained at something else. My question concerns intellectual property and commercialisation. I am not directing my question at Dr. Browne personally but he is an experienced person and I want him to help me understand the sequence of events. In circumstances where an academic like Dr. Browne leads research and arrives at an innovation or something of novelty with value that is subsequently commercialised and results in a spin-out, I understand how the academic institution acquires a stake in that company. That is entirely logical. What I want to understand is how the individual researcher or academic acquires a stake in that entity.

Dr. James Browne

Deputy McDonald is talking specifically about spin-offs?

Dr. Browne needs to talk as though he is talking to a novice because I want this for the purposes of the committee record. Could Dr. Browne walk us through how that happens?

Dr. James Browne

We are talking specifically about a start-up company?

Dr. James Browne

An individual academic is leading a research project or part of a research project, intellectual property is created and if the university believes the intellectual property is worth patenting, which is always a question, it then patents it. It incurs expenses in doing so. The university now has patented intellectual property that is effectively owned by the university and the individual who created it. If the individual wishes to create a start-up on the basis of that, in general - it depends on the circumstances because money is required for a start-up - the university allows the individual to do that, subject to all disclosures in terms of any conflicts of interest he or she may have with the institution. The university looks for a portion of that enterprise to protect its interests in the intellectual property. The enterprise is then set up. In general, that proportion might be of the order of 10% to 20%.

For the institution?

Dr. James Browne

For the institution. Very rarely does an individual do this on their own. An individual may have external support to often bring money to the table. I am talking about an example of how these might work. The university takes a share, the individual takes a share and, in general, a number of other individuals who are generally outside the institution - people who have, frankly, deep pockets-----

-----will bring money to the table.

Dr. James Browne

Correct. A company is established and the company is then partly owned by the university.

Again, I am not questioning anyone's research expertise. There is no doubt that research leaders bring something specific and special to the table so I am not trying to cast doubt in that regard. That said, research is carried out by teams and it would be very unusual for some Einstein brainiac to hit on something on their own.

Dr. James Browne

I completely agree.

I am sure it has happened but it is unusual.

Dr. James Browne

It is, I agree.

What I am trying to figure out is the methodology or framework relating to an individual who is paid, tenured, financed, supported and facilitated by taxpayers' and public moneys, although not exclusively so.

Dr. James Browne

In general, the individual would have won a research grant from a third party. Sometimes he or she might have led on his or her own but generally would have been part of a team. The intellectual property would be created by the individuals, all of whom would share in that by agreement and the university would recognise either the individual or the team that created it. It would be for the individual or the team to come forward to the university and seek protection for a defined piece of intellectual property.

I understand that. When somebody innovates, there is no issue around a person rightfully staking a claim to what comes from that. I am trying to understand if there is a set formula or protocol. How does one disentangle that and figure out who gets what?

Dr. James Browne

The individuals determine that themselves. If it is a team effort, its members determine who contributed what to the intellectual property, so they know themselves and tell the university that a piece of intellectual property is owned by, for the sake of argument, three colleagues, one of whom owns 50% while the other two own 20% and 30%, respectively. The team comes to the university with that statement. We do not make a judgment there. The university then decides whether the intellectual property is worth patenting. It then incurs the cost of patenting it if it thinks it is worth it. The patent is then available for exploitation.

Forgive me if Dr. Browne referred to this earlier but we heard about a procedure around intellectual property and its commercialisation relating to a different institution. I assume that the National University of Ireland, Galway, NUIG, has written protocols.

Dr. James Browne

Absolutely.

How does NUIG record on a case-by-case basis how those proportions are figured out as regards who gets what and who has what stake? All of that is-----

Dr. James Browne

All of that is recorded.

The intellectual property is created, those involved stake their claim and new money is put on the table because investors will become involved so that has an implication for the university's stake and, presumably, for the individuals

Dr. James Browne

Absolutely. There are often multiple rounds of new money. Over time, the company grows and the university's stake gets smaller.

In circumstances where the spin-off is sold off and disposed of and where cash comes upfront, that is really where who gets what and what stake somebody has really come into focus.

Dr. James Browne

I have examples where it has happened. The company has been created by an individual or individuals, has been through a round of funding, the individuals' share and the university's share have been diluted, the company is then sold, revenue is realised from that and the university gets its portion consistent with its share.

Is Dr. Browne satisfied that NUIG has received its fair share?

Dr. James Browne

NUI Galway has received its fair share. I am satisfied we have procedures in place. There is a complication here. Let us be frank and honest about it. Intellectual property is created in a situation where the individual who creates it is almost certainly essential to its exploitation. In a university, it would be lovely if we could say to somebody "you bought that IP, you now leave the stage" and the intellectual property can be transferred across the room to somebody else. That cannot happen because, by and large, the individual who created the intellectual property is almost always essential to its exploitation - not always but almost always. That does create an issue for the institution.

Of course, it does.

Dr. James Browne

I believe that given the state of the economy in this country, particularly in the west of Ireland, we have a responsibility as an institution. We have shown that we have delivered on this. We have managed that conflict and tension well where we have created enterprises that have created jobs for the west of Ireland and we have done it in a very transparent and open way. I am perfectly satisfied that we do that well.

I wish to reassure Dr. Browne that the reason I am pursuing this line of questioning on this topic is because I share that view.

Dr. James Browne

I appreciate that.

It is why I am anxious that we get a look under the bonnet. Dr. Browne has given me his position on this for which I thank him. Is he equally satisfied that NUIG has avoided a scenario where these spin-offs have become a cash cow or a big personal opportunity for the individual, as opposed to being an opportunity for the institution? Let me paint the picture. This is a laywoman's view. I understand that the researcher has a research grant but they are also surrounded by others who assist them, not least postgraduate students-----

Dr. James Browne

And administration and everything, yes.

All of that is paid for and the taxpayer has skin in the game.

Dr. James Browne

That skin in the game is captured through the university share in the company.

I would be very troubled if it was to become apparent that on the balance of things, all of that resulted in a big opportunity for an individual, whose contribution I am not questioning, as opposed to a payback for the institution.

Dr. James Browne

I can only speak from my own experience. I can tell the committee that, from my experience, I am personally satisfied with what is happening in Galway in that regard.

It is robust. Is that right?

Dr. James Browne

Absolutely, I have no doubt about it. I would be perfectly happy to share any information with the Comptroller and Auditor General about those matters on a private basis, because it is private information.

We have made a request of the Comptroller and Auditor General to carry out an investigation in this area.

Dr. James Browne

I am happy to do that.

My final point is on whistleblowers. In May 2014, Seán Ó Foghlú told us that he had told the colleges to sort out whistleblowing matters prior to July 2014. We passed the protected disclosures legislation, which was rather novel. I want Dr. Browne to briefly outline his experience of protected disclosures and how they have been managed. Did Dr. Browne sort out any whistleblower or protected disclosure issues, as instructed by Mr. Ó Foghlú in May 2014?

Dr. James Browne

I gather Deputy McDonald is referring to a particular example. My colleague will be able to deal with that.

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

Yes, back in October 2012 what we believe to have been an anonymous e-mail was sent to a number of individuals, including members of this august body. It was signed by a person. We believe the signature to be a pseudonym or nom de plume. It was sent to the HEA and other agencies as well. It got quite a spread of communication. Subsequently, the HEA made contact with us. Obviously, it rang alarm bells. The HEA asked us to report to the authority on the matter. Deputy McDonald is probably aware of the assertions made in that protected disclosure. I can refer to them briefly.

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

They include: the use of an incorrect procurement model to obtain the best value for money; the duplication of effort in administration across the university; failure to streamline processes to acquire maximum efficiency with the resources available; and, generally, a lack of effort in obtaining value for money on behalf of hard-pressed taxpayers. These were quite general and not specific.

It was also the case that this person or persons referred to a procurement report that was in gestation at the time. An early first draft of it had been made by a company that we had procured to look at our systems from the point of view of efficiency and to see whether, from a systems point of view, they could be made more straightforward in such a way as to lead to efficiencies, including value for money. I will not name the company but it is in the documentation before the committee. We are unsure how it happened but it seems clear from the correspondence from the whistleblower that the whistleblower obtained that early draft. The early draft contained a number of inaccuracies, subsequently shown to be and proven to be inaccuracies. Obviously, that formed part of the report the university made to the HEA. The report was also shared with the Department of Education and Skills. Further information was sought from the Department after October 2012. I understand that the Secretary General discussed the issue before the Committee of Public Accounts at one stage.

The upshot of the consideration of the university report by the HEA and the Department was that they were satisfied there was nothing of substantive concern at issue.

Can the HEA and the Department confirm that is the case?

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

Yes, they did.

I am asking them to do so.

Dr. Graham Love

That is correct.

What protocols or procedures does the college have for whistleblowers or protected disclosures? Is there a confidential recipient?

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

We have a comprehensive policy. We titled it: A Whistleblowing Policy. I would be glad to make it available to the committee. It is comprehensive. It sets out-----

When did that come into effect?

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

It came into effect around the time that this process started, because we took the view that it was needed.

That means it was in 2014. Is that correct?

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

That is correct. Before that-----

Dr. James Browne

I can assure Deputy McDonald that I have to hand the document entitled Whistleblowing dated 31 October 2014 and approved by the university management team.

Have any protected disclosures been made since that was instituted?

Dr. James Browne

Yes.

Dr. James Browne

One.

How has that been dealt with?

Dr. James Browne

It was dealt with completely through the HEA.

Did it relate to anything that we should be made aware of? Was there any impropriety?

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

There were a number of allegations in respect of procurement. The disclosure raised an issue about procurement. The whistleblower was correct in terms of a minor break in our procurement rules. The university accepted this, the HEA accepted it and so did the whistleblower. That is my understanding. Perhaps the HEA representatives will need to confirm that.

I will ask the HEA to comment. Was it an employee of the university?

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

Yes.

Is the person still an employee of the university?

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

Yes.

Dr. Graham Love

I wish to follow through on that. I have consulted my notes. I believe it was forwarded to NUI Galway for response. This followed a review of the university's response and a meeting between my predecessor and the discloser. The HEA responded to all parties in May 2016. The HEA noted that a satisfactory review of the allegations had been conducted by NUI Galway. Subject to some points of clarification, the authority considered the issue to be dealt with and considered the matters to be primarily the concern of the university and its governance structures.

The NUI Galway Vision 2020 document states that the university has invested €400 million in new buildings since 2006. However, in the NUI Galway statement today, the figure is €300 million.

Dr. James Browne

That is for the past ten years. A number of projects were not completed. I can remember one in particular because it is so personal to me. At one stage, we had a plan for a president's residence. That was never followed through. Other projects cost less than anticipated. Some have not been completed.

I know. This is my question. In the Vision 2020 document, the university suggests that it has invested €400 million since 2006. In the opening statement today, however, the figure used was €300 million. Did I miss a year or something?

Dr. James Browne

I would have to check the details but I know how much we have actually spent in the past ten years because I have the figure in front of me. A vision would set out a strategy to expect to spend so much.

NUI Galway has been investing €400 million in new buildings, laboratories and so on.

Ms Mary Dooley

I might be able to answer that. We might be looking at two different sets of figures. They may relate to two different sets of timelines. I know that from the mid 1990s up to 2015-----

The document I have before me specifically refers to 2006. The opening statement from the deputation refers to the past ten years, which brings us back to 2007. Therefore, between 2006 and 2007 there is a difference of €100 million. Is that correct?

Dr. James Browne

The strategic plan sets out a vision.

I know that. I have only a few minutes. Can the deputation explain the difference? One document states that, since 2006, the university has been investing €400 million in new buildings. However, the opening statement indicates that in the past ten years it has invested €300 million.

Mr. Keith Warnock

I can come in on that. The statement says that in the nine years to 30 September 2016, spending was approximately €300 million. Deputy Connolly is quite right. Earlier versions might have said €400 million. They are both round numbers. We are not in the business of specifying to the euro how much was spent.

There is €100 million in the difference.

Mr. Keith Warnock

Obviously, it depends on the exact starting point. In any event, significant investment was going on from 2005, 2006, 2007 and so on.

I want to come back to the issue of part-time employment. I know the deputation will come back to us on this point. The cost of agency staff has risen. Is that correct? The figure was over €2 million and an increase of up to €2 million has been mentioned. Is that correct?

Mr. Keith Warnock

Yes.

It would be concerning if the university was using agency staff to that level. Moreover, the university has the default agency that it must come back to. Again, the deputation said that this was to fill in when someone is out. Will the deputation clarify all of that when it comes back to us?

Mr. John Gill

Absolutely, we will clarify all those questions.

That is lovely. Will the deputation clarify the percentage of women who are taking up these temporary, part-time and replacement jobs, particularly in light of the problem and in the context of UCG's issue with gender inequality? We are being told about precarious employment. I am merely putting this forward. It is the same down here; we are being swamped with information from people who know far more about this than we do. We can see that gender inequality is still a major issue and that precarious employment, part-time work, etc., predominantly relate to females.

It is late. I am putting that to the representatives of NUIG. That is what we are being told. They can say "Yes" or "No" to me, or they can say, "We don't know and we will come back".

Dr. James Browne

We will provide the information to the committee.

Do the witnesses know at this stage?

Mr. John Gill

When we look at some of the temporary contracts, for example, we have made some changes in our internal procedures. For example, historically maternity leave was covered at 0.5 and if one took maternity leave, one was covered on a part-time basis. We have changed that so that one is covered on a full-time basis. Rather than covering it at 0.5, it is covered at 1.0.

I appreciate that.

Mr. John Gill

That puts up the cost. That is one of the things that contributes to the cost, but we will certainly break down the numbers. We will provide the committee with the numbers and we will break it down.

Given the history around gender equality, I would expect NUIG to put all these jobs in context to see if it is making progress in having fewer women in precarious employment and better gender balance. I would expect the witnesses to know that because it has had report after report. As it is attempting to get the Athena SWAN recognition, it is very important that we would have that information so that the public and the people working in NUIG can make up their minds.

I seek clarification on the foundation. On the NUIG annual report and consolidated financial statement, the Comptroller and Auditor General pointed out that the foundation had accumulated reserves of €57.6 million, which will ultimately be passed on to the university. At 30 September 2014, the university's financial statement recognised €17.5 million as being due from the foundation from 2011. I asked about that already and Dr. Browne said that €17.5 has since been paid.

Dr. James Browne

I said to the Deputy that the foundation has paid over to the institution €20 million in the past two years. I would have to look at what payment was made against each precise element in that. I am not saying exactly to match the figures, but I am saying that the university has received €20 million or so in the past two years and will be in the process of receiving the remainder in the next two or three years.

This is a very specific point. In 2014, some €17.5 million was outstanding at that stage from 2011. Has that €17.5 million been paid?

Dr. James Browne

I will have to check the exact figures line by line. That refers to a group of projects that were complete at that point. I can absolutely assure the Deputy that every penny the foundation earns for the university will be paid over to it, but I will check that for her.

Assurances are one thing; the Comptroller and Auditor General showing us that money is outstanding from 2011 is another thing. I do not want assurance. I want to be told if it has been paid over. When was that specific €17.5 million paid over? Has the €67.5 million from the 2014 accounts also come to the university or is the Comptroller and Auditor General-----

Dr. James Browne

First, two figures are overlapping. Second, as I said to the Deputy, in the past two years, of the order of €20 million has been paid over. We have now put in place a process and we are working with the foundation to agree-----

I understand that, but the money is owed. I know it is a charity but it is coming from the foundation for projects. This was 2014, which is three years later. How does NUIG manage without money? It does projects and then the money comes, and it does not take the money that is due.

Ms Mary Dooley

I am not sure where the Deputy is referring to regarding those numbers.

I can state precisely.

It is on page 9 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, that €17.5 million which NUIG has taken in as due from the foundation at the year-end was made up of specific projects and specific figures. The witnesses have the list. I ask them to give us a report on what made up that figure, how much was received, the date it was received and if any of it is still outstanding. That is it. I know that is very basic.

Actually the Comptroller and Auditor General said it had been outstanding for three years at that point.

Ms Mary Dooley

Could I just make a point? The €67 million, if it is the same €67 million-----

It is €57.6 million.

Ms Mary Dooley

Sorry €57 million. The foundation has committed €67 million in capital money to the university. Some 50% of that money has already been paid to the university, received by the university, banked and so on. We referred before to the fact that the foundation will only pay us - that is its rule or policy - once projects have been completed and we have expended the money. As the president has said, a major project has come to completion in the past year or two. The retention moneys and so on and the final balancing of the contract with the contractor has not been done.

I did not ask about-----

Ms Mary Dooley

So it is coming.

I did not ask about anything recent. I asked about what is here in this paragraph. In 2014, it had been due since 2011.

I mentioned agency staff. There is a belief on the ground that consultants are being used to an excessive degree in NUIG. Private consultants are being brought in for different things, including the law faculty. I have gleaned this from the local newspaper. The witnesses should tell me if I am wrong. The university has confirmed that the school of law has spent almost €180,000 on one consultancy firm for 22 months work. It is all set out in the local newspaper. Is that unusual? What was that for?

Dr. James Browne

It was unusual. Let me just think for a moment; I do not have these things off the top of my head. The school of law was in the process of acquiring a senior administrator following the retirement of a prior holder of that post. As I understand it, the school of law hired an individual to take on a role and that individual's contract was extended. I am talking from memory here so I need to be very careful. Maybe I should not do this, but let me have a go at it in the interest of helping out the Deputy. My belief is that the contract was extended. It was payment to an individual for work service she provided to the school of law over a two-year period.

I am reading from a paper.

Dr. James Browne

I think I know what the Deputy is talking about.

I hope Dr. Browne does. Some €180,000 for 22 months' work was paid to a private company, Results Through People Limited, for professional services.

Dr. James Browne

It was an individual who took on a role for a 22-month period.

Dr. James Browne

I would have to check the figures, but if that is what the Deputy is saying, I am not contradicting her.

That is another thing to check.

I will finish up on the gender issue. Does NUIG have part-time teaching assistant posts?

Dr. James Browne

There are people who work as part-time teachers, yes.

That is okay because I asked another institute and it did not have any. NUIG has a part-time teaching assistant. Is that what it is called?

Dr. James Browne

I am sorry. I am not trying to be difficult here, but we do not advertise a job as a part-time teaching assistant. We occasionally have need for part-time people to support our programmes. Those people are sometimes post-doctoral students or sometimes retired employees of companies. They come in and do something for us. We pay them as part-time assistants.

It is simply "Yes" or "No". As I have said already, we have been inundated with discontent regarding the gender issue. Is there a role or a position called a "part-time teaching assistant"?

Dr. James Browne

I do not believe so.

Dr. James Browne

That is not to say there are not people who take on part-time assistant roles. There is a difference. I am at a loss to explain this.

There are teaching roles, but some of them work part-time.

Dr. James Browne

Correct. That is basically it. I guess that is the way to put it.

I am not sure what the frustration is about.

Dr. James Browne

If there is a suggestion - maybe I am being presumptuous here - that somehow we are trying to substitute full-time with part-time teachers, that is not the case.

I have no suggestion.

Dr. James Browne

I appreciate that.

I would be reassured if Dr. Browne was not so jumpy about it and told us. He should have figures here given the scandal that existed with gender inequality. I did not want to use that word but what has gone on in NUIG with gender inequality is an absolute scandal. That is my opinion.

Dr. James Browne

The Deputy is entitled to it.

I resisted saying it. I would have preferred if Dr. Browne had said, "Yes, we accept that. We put our hands up. There has been a case. There are five other cases. I do not know how many. We're learning from that. This is what we've done." I do not know what NUIG is paying agency staff. I do not know how many part-time positions there are and I do not know how many women are in those part-time positions. I am simply asking questions.

Dr. James Browne

Sure.

Are there lecturer positions that do not include research? Are lecturers employed strictly as lecturers who do not carry out research?

Dr. James Browne

The university has a policy of research-led teaching. We absolutely try to ensure that every member of staff, who is a lecturer or professor, is involved in teaching. Yes, absolutely, we try to ensure that.

Are the positions research focused and every lecturer has a responsibility in terms of research?

Dr. James Browne

Sorry, no.

Dr. James Browne

That is not correct.

Dr. James Browne

We have two types of lecturers-----

Dr. James Browne

-----just to be frank about it.

That is what I asked Dr. Browne.

Dr. James Browne

I am sorry. I did not understand the question then and I am sorry.

Dr. James Browne

We have two types of lecturers. We have lecturers who have the normal academic contract-----

Dr. James Browne

-----the same as every other university and have an expectation in terms of teaching, research and contribution.

Dr. James Browne

We have also, in Galway, created a post. It used to be called a university teacher.

Dr. James Browne

It is now called lecturer contract A. That contract A is primarily a teaching contract, not exclusively a teaching contract. Yes.

Thank you. Is there no research involved? Is it primarily teaching?

Dr. James Browne

If I can explain?

Dr. James Browne

I realise it is a subtle point but it is an important one. The individual who is a lecturer on contract A has a high teaching load, is required to be up to date with his or her discipline in terms of research but is not required to actively contribute to the research literature.

Yes, not actively required. I thank Dr. Browne.

Dr. James Browne

No, that is not absolutely right. He or she may do research but is not required to.

I thank Dr. Browne.

Dr. James Browne

Yes.

How many women are in those positions?

Dr. James Browne

I do not have the figures in front of me. Maybe Mr. Gill knows. There are, I think, 60 people who are contract A, from memory.

Dr. James Browne

To begin, the history of it is interesting. They emerged originally from language assistants in the arts college.

Dr. James Browne

I could not tell the Deputy the breakdown.

The breakdown is important.

Dr. James Browne

I do not have it in front of me here but I am happy to provide it.

That is okay and I thank Dr. Browne. Research comes with a premium, does it not? That is what the university is all about - research. Then there is a group who are not really doing research, which happens to be dominated by females.

Dr. James Browne

That is an unfair presentation of the facts.

Listen, Dr. Browne. I have been more than fair and simply asked a question. I prefaced my final comment by saying that if the majority of those posts are held by women then they obviously would be at a disadvantage if the university puts a heavy emphasis on research.

Dr. James Browne

I believe that is mistaken and if I am given the chance I shall explain why. Yes, it is true that there are two types of lecturer on what we call contract A and contract B.

Dr. James Browne

Yes, it is true that a minority of staff are contract A.

Dr. James Browne

It is true that they are primarily teaching posts.

Dr. James Browne

There is a requirement for them to be research-up to date rather than research-active. It is also true that they are paid on the same scale as, from want of a better word, contract B - the normal. They have the same opportunity for promotion using different criteria.

Dr. James Browne

We have done that. We have a senior lecturer scheme out of which an individual, who is a lecturer on contract A, can apply. He or she will be treated to a different set of criteria because the contract against which that person is being assessed is primarily a teaching contract.

Our expectation is, and let me be clear about this, the university has committed to creating professorial positions for people in that grade. We have an absolute parallel. We have the same salary scales, parallel promotion opportunities to senior lecturer level and criteria which are appropriate to the post.

Will Dr. Browne forward the figure to me?

Dr. James Browne

I will of course, yes.

Dr. Browne attended a committee here in a different capacity. My query relates to page 42 of the university's vision for 2020. At the Irish committee Dr. Browne said that a bilingual campus was simply an aspiration. Again, there are money implications for that. As he will know, Gaillimh le Gaeilge has published a very good document on the value of the Irish language in Galway to the economy. I am bad on figures but I am sure Dr. Browne can tell me the correct figure. I think the Irish language is worth over €100 million. Last Tuesday, and it is fair that I say so and I have not misquoted him, Dr. Browne said bilingualism is simply an aspiration.

Dr. James Browne

No, I am sorry. The Deputy is not quite correct in what she has said. Let me, please, explain.

Dr. James Browne

I believe the discussion was as Gaeilge.

Dr. James Browne

It was also quite late in the evening.

Dr. James Browne

Let us be clear. It was after two and a half hours of, frankly, a very challenging session on this topic. What I said, and I am happy to repeat it in the sense that I believe it to be the case-----

Dr. James Browne

We were described as an exemplary bilingual campus. Let me be quite clear that I do not believe that either Galway city or the university is an exemplary bilingual environment. Let me please explain.

Dr. James Browne

Exemplary to me suggests that we have reached the highest standards - that we are an exemplar. I believe we are aspiring to be, and I am completely and personally committed to that aspiration. We have a sprioc, mar a deirtear as Gaeilge. We have a vision to be an exemplary bilingual campus. We are working towards it but I believe it would be a mistake, if I may say so-----

Dr. James Browne

May I finish, please? I believe it would be a mistake if I say so to pretend that right now Galway city is bilingual-----

I just quoted what Dr. Browne said.

Dr. James Browne

-----or the university is an exemplar campus. It certainly aspires to be and nobody is more supportive of that than I am. Go raibh míle maith agat.

Dr. Browne, sorry.

Dr. James Browne

Yes.

I asked Dr. Browne a question on Tuesday and I am asking him again.

Dr. James Browne

Yes.

I understood that Galway university was a bilingual campus and Dr. Browne clearly replied that no, that was an aspiration.

Dr. James Browne

I am sorry. I said it was not an exemplary bilingual campus.

Dr. James Browne

And that I believe to be the case.

Dr. James Browne

"Exemplary" to me suggests an exemplar, i.e. top. We have a long way to go to that.

I shall ask my last question through the Chair. I do not have the word for exemplary in Irish.

Dr. James Browne

It is eiseamláireach.

I know what eiseamláireach is. Go raibh míle maith agaibh. I did not use it. I did not have it in that context. Chuir mé ceist an raibh an ollscoil mar champas dhátheangach. Tháinig an finné isteach agus dúirt sé níl agus gur aspiration é.

Dr. James Browne

Duirt mé go raibh mé cinnte go mba ceart go mbeadh an ollscoil dátheangach.

Dr. James Browne

Tá mé i ndáiríre faoin sprioc sin, ach is sprioc é.

That was not my question. Dr. Browne said it was an aspiration.

Dr. James Browne

I said an exemplary bilingual campus was aspirational. There is quite a difference.

I shall finish by quoting from the university's 2020 vision and language document. It reads: "We are committed through our Scéim Teanga to the development of an exemplary bilingual campus".

Dr. James Browne

Absolutely.

The document continues "and to making an active offer of service through Irish". This is the second scéim teanga. Am I right to say that the document refers to the second scéim teanga?

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

Yes.

Dr. James Browne

I believe the Deputy is right, yes. Note the notion that we are committed to "the development of".

Dr. Browne, honestly. I shall ask my questions through the Chair. I referred to the second scéim teanga by the university. In the first scéim teanga the university committed to a bilingual campus. Does the Chairman think he can find out how much progress was made between that language scheme to this one that is now in place? Clearly, it is not an aspiration but an objective-----

Dr. James Browne

I wonder, Chair-----

Under statute the university is obliged to bring in a language scheme. It is obliged to comply with the statute under the Official Languages Act. The policy document states that the university will have a bilingual campus.

Dr. James Browne

Maybe my colleague might answer.

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

Chair, if I might just make a comment and, hopefully, it might add some light.

Just answer, please. It would be helpful.

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

We could get very fanciful in our semantics here.

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

The reality is-----

I asked a specific question. It is an objective in the language Act.

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

Yes.

The university has included the objective in its scheme.

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

Yes.

How much of the objective has been achieved? When will the university achieve the rest of it?

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

Yes. I am seven years as chairman in Galway. I come from the north east in terms of past employments. I can assure the committee, by any objective standard, that NUI Galway does have a bilingual campus at the moment. In my opinion, it is exemplary.

Has Mr. Ó Conluain said it does?

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

Excuse me. Can I just finish, please?

Did Mr. Ó Conluain say it does?

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

Yes.

I will allow Mr. Ó Conluain to finish. Did Mr. Ó Conluain say the university has a bilingual campus?

Mr. Gearóid Ó Conluain

The aim of the university to have a bilingual campus, which is creditable and which is exemplary, is both a current reality and a continuing aspiration. The two can survive in the same context.

We are on the top of a pin. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

I call Deputy McDonald, finally.

Sprioc eile atá i gceist agamsa. The language thing is very important for children who are educated through Irish.

Dr. James Browne

Absolutely, yes.

I wan to ask without reopening the whole gender issue. Can the delegation map out its staff, academic and otherwise, at all levels? Can we have the figures of where mná na hÉireann feature in sprioc na hOllscoile at the moment?

Dr. James Browne

Absolutely, yes.

Please bear with me for 20 seconds. On behalf of the Committee of Public Accounts I thank all of our witnesses from NUIG, the HEA, the Department of Education and Skills and the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Before we go I want the assistance of Members for a moment because I want to clarify a piece of committee business. Members are all familiar with the situation where our parliamentary assistants or secretarial assistants can have access to documents on our behalf. I have put in a request for a researcher. As he is technically a researcher upstairs I am told I have to get approval from the committee to allow him to get the documents. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The witnesses withdrew.
The committee adjourned at 4.50 p.m. until 9 a.m. on Thursday, 13 April 2017.
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