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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 9 Dec 2021

Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment

Mr. John McKeon(Secretary General, Department of Social Protection) called and examined.

Apologies have been received from Deputy Sherlock. Deputy Devlin has advised that he will be delayed, as has the Chairman, Deputy Stanley. I welcome everyone to the meeting. Due to the current situation regarding Covid-19, only the clerk, support staff and I are in the committee room. Members of the committee are attending remotely from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit. The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee.

This morning, we will be engaging with officials from the Department of Social Protection to examine the 2020 appropriation account for Vote 37 - Social Protection, and the Social Insurance Fund. From the Comptroller and Auditor General's 2020 report on the accounts of the public services, we will be examining chapter 9, on the regularity of social welfare payments; chapter 10, on the management of social welfare appeals; and chapter 11, regarding controls over the Covid-19 pandemic unemployment payment, PUP.

Following last week’s engagement with the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, we also requested an update on the implementation of recommendations contained in chapter 20 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the accounts of the public services from 2017, which concerned PRSI contributions, as well as an update on the implementation of a recommendation of the last Committee of Public Accounts arising from its examination of that chapter. I thank the Secretary General for providing that information at short notice, as well as the information provided in relation to a parliamentary question tabled by me concerning expenditure by the Department in recent years on lighting and heating.

We are joined by the following officials from the Department of Social Protection: Mr. John McKeon, Secretary General; Mr. Ciarán Lawler, assistant secretary for finance; Mr. John Conlon, assistant secretary for control; Ms Joan Gordon, chief appeals officer; and Ms Philomena McShane, chief accountant. We are also joined remotely by Ms Jasmina Behan, principal officer, and Ms Ivana McGarr, assistant principal in the social protection Vote section of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. They are all very welcome.

I ask members and witnesses to mute themselves when not contributing so we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

Before we begin, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. However, one of today’s witnesses is giving evidence remotely from a place outside of the parliamentary precincts, and as such may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present does. The witness has been advised that they may think it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter.

Witnesses should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. To assist the Broadcasting Unit and the Debates Office, I ask members to direct their questions to a specific witness. If the question has not been directed to a specific witness, I ask each witness to state their name the first time they contribute.

I now call on the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

As members will be aware, the Department of Social Protection operates a wide range of income support, welfare and labour activation schemes. Expenditure on the schemes is divided between two accounts: the appropriation account for Vote 37, and the account of the Social Insurance Fund. The Vote account is funded mainly through direct Exchequer issues, while the Social Insurance Fund is funded mainly from pay related social Insurance contributions.

The Department’s overall expenditure on scheme payments in 2020 totalled nearly €30 billion. This represented an increase of 48% on 2019 scheme expenditure, and included just over €9 billion incurred in 2020 across three new Covid-19 related schemes: the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, scheme; the temporary wage subsidy scheme, TWSS; and the employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS. The Department’s expenditure on administration of the schemes amounted to a further €635 million.

At the end of 2019, the accumulated reserves in the Social Insurance Fund were €3.9 billion. During 2020, receipts into the fund totalled €11.4 billion, while expenditure totalled €14.8 billion. The result was a deficit for the year of €3.5 billion, and the accumulated reserves had fallen to €453 million at the end of 2020. I gave a clear audit opinion on the accounts of both the Vote and the Social Insurance Fund for 2020. However, I drew attention in my report on the Vote account to a material level of non-compliance with procurement rules as disclosed in the statement on internal financial control.

I will now turn to chapter 9: regularity of social welfare payments. For a variety of reasons, some welfare recipients may be paid amounts to which they are not entitled, or that exceed their entitlements. These are classified as "irregular payments". The Department conducts periodic control surveys of scheme payments to understand the level and causes of the excess payments that occur. The results of the surveys point to a material incidence of payments in excess of entitlements under many welfare schemes. As has been the case for several years, I have drawn attention to this in both audit certificates.

Chapter 10 covers management of social welfare appeals. When a person is refused a social welfare payment by the Department, he or she can, in most cases, appeal the decision to the social welfare appeals office. Overall, the rate of appeal of the Department’s decisions on applicants’ claims is low. In 2020, appeals lodged represented around 1.3% of the approximately two million decisions that were made in respect of claims for income support and other benefits. However, the rate of appeal varies between schemes. For example, more than 40% of the appeals received in 2020 related to just two schemes: disability allowance and carer’s allowance. In 2020, just under 26,000 appeal decisions were finalised. In more than half of the finalised cases, the appeals were successful from the perspective of the claimant.

As part of the examination, we analysed a sample of successful appeals in respect of three schemes, to identify why they succeeded. This indicated that in 70% of the cases examined, material new evidence had been supplied as part of the appeal. We found in the majority of these cases that the additional information provided at appeal augmented information provided at the original application stage, and that the appeals might have been avoided if the additional information had been provided or elicited earlier.

Chapter 11 examines controls over the Covid-19 PUP scheme. As members will be aware, the scheme was devised and implemented in a very short period, at the same time as the Department had to adopt significantly restricted work practices. I am happy to acknowledge that delivery of the scheme on such a scale and in such a short time represented a major achievement. Given the volume of claims that were expected, and the potential loss of staff due to Covid-19, the Department implemented reduced take-on controls over PUP scheme claims when compared to other income support schemes, and recognised at the outset that the risk of overpayments would be higher than normal. The Department deemed this to be necessary and appropriate, and in the public interest. I do not disagree with that assessment. However, the examination found that there was scope subsequently for the Department to make more timely use of opportunities to confirm eligibility for ongoing PUP payments. The examination reviewed a random sample of claims from employees on the basis they were out of work due to Covid restrictions. Such employee claimants accounted for 80% of the scheme expenditure in 2020. We found evidence in records available to the Department that more than 9% of the claims reviewed were not eligible for the payments received on the dates tested. This suggests there may have been a material level of irregular payments of employee claimants under the PUP scheme. However, more extensive testing would be required to reach a precise estimate of the level of excess payment for the scheme.

The examination also reviewed a random sample of self-employed PUP claims. We found that it was not possible to conclude on the eligibility of these claimants, due to the absence of evidence about the level of loss of business turnover due to Covid-19.

I thank Mr. McCarthy for his presentation. Before I call Mr. McKeon, it is important to note that the committee very much appreciates that some of what we will examine today will have happened due to the pandemic. That is the introduction of the PUP scheme at very short notice. The amount of work and effort that went into getting the scheme up and running very quickly was a significant factor in avoiding distress for many people. I thank the officials in the Department for the huge effort. I acknowledge the point made by the Comptroller and Auditor General that this was a major achievement.

I invite Mr. McKeon to make his opening statement.

Mr. John McKeon

I thank the committee for inviting me here today to discuss the appropriation account for Vote 37, and chapter 9 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor for the year ending 2020 relating to the regularity of welfare payments, chapter 10 relating to appeals and chapter 11 on the PUP. I also understand that the committee would like to review the accounts of the Social Insurance Fund and I will be pleased to respond to any questions that members may have on these accounts.

I am joined today by Ms Joan Gordon, chief appeals officer, Mr. Ciarán Lawler, assistant secretary with responsibility for finance, Ms Philomena McShane, the Department’s chief accountant, and Mr. John Conlon, assistant secretary with responsibility for control policy. I may, with the Vice Chairman's permission, rely on assistance from my colleagues in addressing some of the questions that members may raise. I am particularly mindful of the notice given by the Vice Chairman at the beginning of this meeting. I am a witness outside the curtilage, and I am self-isolating at the moment.

I arranged for an advance copy of this statement together with briefing material on the accounts and the chapters under review, the annual report of the Department, the annual statistics report and other relevant information to be provided to the committee secretariat. I hope that members found this material to be of use.

I would like to commence by breaking precedent. Normally, Accounting Officers conclude their statements at this meeting by acknowledging the work of their staff. I hope that members will agree that, in the context of the 21 months just past, it is appropriate to place my appreciation and my pride in the Department’s staff to the forefront of my comments. The committee may think that this is due to the unprecedented response to Covid-19 crisis, and it is true that the measures taken to flatten the curve in the health domain resulted in an unprecedented peak in demand for income supports and other welfare services. Over the period, the Department has built not just one but two new IT systems to process approximately 1.8 million claims for the PUP, equivalent to approximately nine years' worth of jobseeker's claims.

The Department’s staff processed more than 212,000 claims for the special Covid-19 illness payment, introduced a new enterprise support grant, implemented new flexible arrangements for rent supplement, rolled out online and telephone-based services for the General Register Office, GRO, appeals, medical assessments and employment services and developed new IT functionality to provide attributed or full social insurance contributions to people who were laid off during the Covid pandemic. We also implemented a new protocol for victims of domestic abuse. All of this was Covid-related and I could go on. The Department has now distributed or funded some €17.4 billion in expenditure on Covid-related supports. Just as we thought we were making progress in transitioning back to normal operations, staff again worked over the past weekend to put a new PUP scheme in place and are already processing claims into payment for next week.

However, the past 21 months have not all been about Covid-19. Having made substantial improvements in processing performance across most of our schemes and in the appeals service over the previous year, we were determined to protect these improvements. In fact, across most scheme areas, processing performance continued to improve as more online options were implemented and staff adapted to new processes and to working remotely from the office. To take just one example, carer's allowance claims, which took on average 14 weeks to process in 2019, are now being processed in about four weeks.

In parallel, staff of the Department rolled out new services including the benefit payment for 65-year-olds. They developed new services and expanded others as part of the pathways to work strategy, established and supported the work of the Pensions Commission and enhanced our IT security and energy management capabilities. Again, I could go on.

The efforts of staff have been recognised in a number of independent awards for customer communications and for professionalism in procurement. In addition, in a world where cybersecurity and energy management are key concerns, the Department has also, over the past year, been awarded International Organization for Standardization, ISO, certification for information systems security management and for energy management conservation. Ours is among the first Civil Service Departments to achieve these certifications.

I will say no more on this subject except for two things. First, it is not uncommon to hear and see bandwagon criticism of the civil and public service as being cosseted, of not being innovative, of being inefficient or of lacking customer focus. It may be a vain hope, but I hope that the evidence, not just in my Department but across the public service over the pandemic period, will help dispel these lazy caricatures. Second, I am hugely proud to be associated with the work of the Department’s staff and the 350 other public servants who worked with us on occasions over the past period. I say "associated" because it is not my work but theirs and I hope the committee will join me in acknowledging that work and offering a heartfelt appreciation.

The committee will note, from the 2020 accounts, that total expenditure on Vote 37 services and administration, before appropriations-in-aid, amounted to €16.5 billion. This was €5.6 billion higher than 2019 Vote expenditure of €10.9 billion. Out of this increase, €5.4 billion related to expenditure on Covid income and employer supports. Excluding this expenditure, the additional expenditure represented a small increase of 1.9% compared with 2019 spending. If Covid-related expenditure is excluded from the comparisons, the expenditure for the year amounted to €11.1 billion, an increase of €200 million or 1.9% compared with 2019.

Expenditure on Social Insurance Fund services amounted to €14.1 billion. This was an increase of €4.1 billion on the 2019 outturn. Again, if Covid-related expenditure is excluded, the adjusted figures for 2020 show expenditure of €10.4 billion, an increase of €400 million or 3.7%. Combined expenditure of €30.5 billion across the spending period represents approximately 15% of modified gross national income for the year.

It is clear that there are a number of key drivers of this change, with €265 million additional expenditure related to pensions, of which demographics account for €218 million and €47 million is related to pension budget measures. Similarly, illness and invalidity payments increased by €263 million. As previously discussed at this committee, these demographic trends are likely to continue with significant implications for expenditure. This issue was at the heart of the deliberations of the Pensions Commission and members will be aware the commission has made a number of proposals both with regard to mitigating the cost impact and generating the necessary revenue to fund the inevitable increases in expenditure. These proposals are now being considered by the Government and have also been referred to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection, Rural and Community Development and the Islands and the Commission on Taxation and Welfare. Taking account of inputs from these bodies, it is expected that the Government will provide its response by the end of March 2022.

Chapter 9 of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report is concerned with control over welfare payments. Chapter 11 is specifically concerned with control of the PUP. Chapter 9 makes no recommendations but chapter 11 makes a number of recommendations with respect to PUP payments.

I have said at this committee before that one of the challenges faced by the Department is to strike a balance between, on the one hand, designing and managing large-scale service processes that are reliable, efficient and effective for the overwhelming majority of people who use our services and, on the other, implementing controls and checks to assure payment and service integrity. However, we are mindful in doing this that our primary purpose is to support people who need support and that we cannot pursue the elimination of error or fraud at the cost of unreasonably denying entitlement to service or frustrating access to that entitlement. This is always a key consideration and never more so than when implementing the PUP.

Given the volume of claims to be processed, the level of public anxiety arising from the truly dystopian images we witnessed in other countries, the need to ensure people who lost employment due to Government-mandated measures were supported and the imperative to buttress public acceptance of those measures, I believe it was correct, when designing PUP within an incredibly short time period, to accept a higher level of risk and to favour prompt processing over very tight control. That is not to say that there was no control. In fact, there was a range of take-on and in-payment controls and while they may not have been as extensive as for normal jobseeker payments, their impact is reflected in the fact that about 500,000 of the claims processed were not awarded. In addition, in-payment control reviews are associated with about a further 143,000 claim closures.

It is also notable that although the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report identifies control improvements that could be made, the gross level of overpayment estimated based on a sample of claims reviewed was 9.4%. In making this estimate the report notes the Department’s observation that the figure is arguably inflated by the inclusion in the sample of periods when there was a high level of churn on the scheme. Excluding these periods, the estimated overpayment level would be about 6%, a figure consistent with data from the work we have since concluded in awarding accredited social insurance contributions. These estimated figures need to be seen in the context where overpayment levels in welfare administrations, not just in Ireland but around the world, tend to average between 3% and 5%, with high churn schemes such as jobseeker payments having somewhat higher rates.

It would have been untenable to impose the normal level of control checks and frustrate prompt access to payments during the period of a global pandemic in order to achieve a marginal percentage reduction in overpayment levels. It is also to be borne in mind that the Department can and will in the coming months review claims paid and, for example, using data matching with Revenue records, identify and pursue recovery of overpayments made. Any overpayments made will of course be followed up in a reasonable and proportionate manner. Having said this, I accept that the level of overpayment is material and that it is always possible to do better. I accept the recommendations in the report are appropriate. We have accepted them and I can confirm they are being actioned.

Chapter 10 reviews the approach to management of appeals and contains a number of recommendations. By way of background, the appeals services, headed by the chief appeals officer, although part of the Department, has statutory independence in the performance of its functions. Each year it receives and processes about 23,000 appeals, representing about 1.4% of all claims. As part of the appeals process, it forwards all appeals received to the Department providing the Department with an opportunity to review the decision made based on the appeal submissions of the appellant. Typically, about 20% of appeals result in revised decisions being made by the Department. The balance fall to be determined by an appeals officer.

Overall, taking Department reviews and appeals decisions together, over 50% of appeals, or about 0.7% of first instance decisions, result in a favourable outcome for the appellant. It is important in saying this to point out that the success rate varies by scheme and, generally speaking, the schemes with higher success rates tend to be schemes that rely on medical evidence as to a person’s capacity for work or requirement for care. While not the only factor at play, it is often the case that appellants submit additional medical information that was not available to the Department. In order to address this issue, the Department has worked with advocacy groups to revise its application forms and new disability allowance and invalidity forms will be launched in the first half of 2022.

In terms of processing performance, the appeals process can be quasi-judicial in nature, with all parties to an appeal being provided with the opportunity to submit information and state their case. This necessarily results in a lengthy process. Nevertheless, increases in the number of appeals officers in recent years are now bearing some fruit and appeals processing times have improved. The approach to considering appeals and in particular to interaction between the appeals office and the Department to reduce transaction times is also being reviewed. It is hoped that this, together with the implementation of a new IT system starting in 2022, will lead to further improvements. In addition, in order to improve overall management capacity within the office, including quality assurance recommended by the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Minister is bringing forward legislation in the forthcoming Social Welfare Bill to enable the appointment of more than one deputy chief appeals officer.

I understand committee members have expressed an interest in discussing issues related to false self-employment and the contracting of public employment services. Both of these topics were the subject of detailed discussion at this and other committees in recent years, including in response to reports presented by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The issue of false self-employment was also the subject of a recent report by the Joint Committee on Social Protection, Rural and Community Development and the Islands. In order to assist the committee, I have provided additional material in response to questions submitted to the Department last week. Rather than go into these matters further in this opening statement, I will be pleased to respond to any questions members may have.

I will conclude, as I have previously, by saying that we, as a Department, although we try to do our best, are not perfect and we do not always get things right. We pride ourselves on being, and hope we are, open to challenge, criticism and suggestions for improvements. The process today plays an important role in reminding us of our purpose and helping us to identify areas for improvement and learn from our mistakes. It is through such a process that we hope to improve. I and my colleagues will be pleased to take any questions members may have.

The lead questioner for the committee today is Deputy McAuliffe, who will have 15 minutes. The next speaker will be Deputy Munster, who, along with all other members, will have ten minutes. I will allow members in for a second round if time allows.

I say "Good morning" to Mr. McKeon and the other witnesses. In the context of the Department processing the best part of 700,000 or 800,000 PUP applications in five weeks and Mr. McKeon's attending this meeting while being somewhat unwell, some people might say I should go a little easy on him. We appreciate him being here. I know he was feeling unwell. There are three areas I wish to cover. They can be divided into questions relating to what is a very unusual period and the PUP, and those that might be asked in a normal period.

I will focus first on non-compliant procurement. I refer to the list of 92 contracts provided to the committee. Almost all of those fall into what we might call the provision of local employment service contracts. Many public representatives and members of the public will be quite surprised to learn that household names in their local constituency that provide valuable local employment services are considered by the Comptroller and Auditor General to have non-compliant procurement. I suspect that is not a reflection on any of the services those organisations provide but, rather, the procurement process. I ask Mr. McKeon to address why the Comptroller and Auditor General considers those contracts to be non-compliant.

Mr. John McKeon

Certainly. As a Department, we value local employment services. I am very aware of and sensitive to the uncertainty the local employment services are currently experiencing. The situation arises on foot of legal advice the Department received several years ago from the Office of the Chief State Solicitor. That advice was subsequently confirmed by the Attorney General. We did query it. Senator Higgins previously provided material and we had that material queried as well. The clear and unambiguous legal advice is that the process that commenced more than 25 years ago of awarding annual contracts without a competitive procurement process is not compliant with EU procurement rules. In spite of what some people may think, that is not necessarily advice that we particularly welcomed, but it is the advice we received and we have to respect it and act on it. As Accounting Officer, I have to make sure I act on it because my statutory function is to try to ensure our procurement is legal. That is the background to it. I do not want to make too big a deal out of this but, even leaving aside the legal advice, renewing or rolling over contracts for 25 years without any kind of competitive process is not exactly good governance. You do get into the classic governance principle in respect of relationships. The Minister put her position on this issue on the record very clearly in the Dáil last week. Even apart from the legal advice, it is probably something we might have had to consider anyway.

Has the Department considered the legal advice that many in the sector have made available and which indicates that, under EU procurement rules, it might be possible not to tender out these services?

Mr. John McKeon

Absolutely. We have not seen the detailed legal advice obtained by the Irish Local Development Network, ILDN, which I think is the entity to which the Deputy is referring. It is a valuable advocacy group and representative body. We have not seen the detailed legal advice but we have seen a summary. It reflects what Senator Higgins previously brought to our attention, and that certainly was discussed with the legal advisers. The view is that the situation is clear. There are a couple of points I wish to make on it. I do not want to get into the detail of what I understand it to be, partly because I am outside the curtilage of Leinster House. Just because a service is social in nature does not mean it is not also of financial or economic interest. Those are the two streams within the EU procurement rules. In a situation where there are other providers available in the market - this is not just the Irish market; it is the EU market - that could provide similar services, then the services have to be tendered. Effectively, that is the situation. We did consider that advice but there is no way of getting around this, as far as we can see. That is certainly the advice of the Attorney General.

Mr. McKeon and I may differ on that. Does he accept that although the tendering process may be required, decisions on the number of lots, to move the service from a local employment service to a regional employment service or in respect of the terms of that contract, such as whether walk-ins will be permitted, are decisions of the Department? I do not wish to discuss the contract, but does Mr. McKeon agree that the conditions of any new contract are decisions of the Department and that, in directing it to have compliant procurement, the Comptroller and Auditor General is not instructing the Department in any way in respect of the issues I have mentioned, such as lot sizes, the number of lots and the conditions of the contracts?

Mr. John McKeon

I will come to that. Although I do not wish to speak for the Comptroller and Auditor General, I think it is fair to say that he is not directing us; he is observing that the procurement to date is not compliant. It is a matter then for the Department to respond on that.

As regards the tender design, part of the process we took when we first became aware several years ago of the obligation to tender these documents was to take a deliberate and careful approach to how we go about it. We commissioned Indecon to prepare two reports on local employment services and jobs clubs. We then commissioned the Institute of Economic Studies and Social Finance International to carry out another study. They have all come to the conclusion, for good reasons, that there is an opportunity in the procurement to deliver a more integrated service. That is what it is really about. It is in the interests of jobseekers. At the moment, across the various job club and local employment services, we have approximately 66 different providers. We also have JobPath providers and our own service. It is a bit of a confused landscape for jobseekers. The advice we got clearly in all those reports was to try to bring it together and integrate it. The other advice we got that the different services such as ourselves as Intreo, JobPath, the local employment services and job clubs are all broadly involved across different cohorts of jobseekers. The advice we got was to try to focus each different service provision on particular cohorts. That kind of advice meant that we had to change things.

Regardless of-----

Mr. John McKeon

I do not wish to get into the issue of lots directly but the one point I will make is that the lots - we have yet to finalise them - do not have to translate into a single provider in each lot or area. I will give an example. In Donegal, which, as the Deputy is aware, is one of the four regions where we tried it out and are taking the lessons from that, the Donegal and Inishowen providers came together to put in a collaborative bid. A similar situation pertained in Sligo and Leitrim. Although it is one lot where there were previously two providers, the two providers are still involved in Donegal and in Sligo and Leitrim. That can continue.

What we are trying to do within particular geographic areas is to make sure there is congruity. That does not necessarily mean the bodies within those areas are-----

I accept that. The difficulty many people in the sector and many people committed to the principle of partnership see is that as we continue to treat each of these policy tools and their administration as services, it restricts the ability of local communities to come together in partnership to respond to local needs. Mr. McKeon said this is a contract that goes back 25 years. Communities like mine in Ballymun and Finglas and many others had pockets of disadvantage and still have, and many of the partnerships were established to bring agencies together to move away from a national focus to allow a local response. The difficulty with the SICAP being tendered as a contract, the local employment services being tendered as a single contract and the Tús scheme and community employment scheme being more under the control of the Department is that they make sense if we were replying to the Comptroller and Auditor General and analysing this as an accounting exercise but they remove the local focus. For example, if there was a significant job loss in Dublin Port, the local employment service that covers the north inner city would be equipped to handle that and to put in place local solutions. Equally, the same would apply if there was a significant drop in employment, as happened in Ballymun in 2010 and 2011 where we did not have many of the new unemployed that many of the other services had but rather had people who had been successfully placed in employment who then returned to the services and those people required a different response from, for example, people in Glasnevin and Drumcondra who might have been experiencing unemployment for the first time. If we move from a local to regional approach we remove the local focus and the ability of local communities to respond. This is about bringing all the stakeholders in an area together. Many people are asking whether the Department is committed to the principle of partnership in the way it would have championed it in the mid-1990s.

Mr. John McKeon

In response to a few of those points, I would make the point I just made. The Indecon report and the study carried out by the Institute of Economic Studies and Social Finance Foundation recommended that it be done in 15 lots. One of my colleagues might correct me if I am wrong on that as I do not have the papers in front of me. We are going with considerably more than that. We have not finalised it but it will be considerably more than that. It will be a regional approach but not regional in the sense of it being at that level because we have taken on board the feedback.

The existing providers, which are sitting tenants, so to speak, are well positioned. There is no reason they cannot get together, as they did in counties Donegal, Sligo and Leitrim, and be successful in this process and when they are successful they will be on the ground and can respond locally. I take on board the Deputy’s point about when something happens. The loss of jobs for the Debenhams workers was another case in point last year. The Department often takes the lead and organises in such cases. If the Deputy were to speak to SIPTU officials, they would be very positive about the way the Department engaged and worked not only with its staff but with local employment service and other service providers. The Department will continue to co-ordinate and support in that respect.

On the Deputy’s question on the Department championing partnership, we like partnership but we have to operate within the rules. The rules are that we have to procure this in a way that is open, transparent and competitive.

To be fair, I want to move on to another area. I will finish by making this point. In the past, the State made a decision to make sure the rules focused on the local community. I ask Mr. McKeon to ensure the Department continues to do that in the way it implements the solutions to comply with the procurement process and the others reasons for which it is implementing this.

The Deputy has two minutes remaining.

I wish to move on to the issue of PUP payments. I do not want to dwell on it because extraordinary work was done over that period. I thought it was worth bringing to the committee’s attention, and there may be follow-up questions on this, the results of the testing sample for the PUP period. Some 411 claims were processed, of which 329 were employees and 82 were self-employed. While the irregular payments made to employees was approximately 9%, which is a little but not substantially higher than the irregular payments under other schemes, it is interesting it was not possible for the 82% or 100% of those who were self-employed to identify whether they were eligible. In short time Mr. McKeon has available to respond to me and other speakers, will he outline why the measures adopted in August were not adopted earlier and whether that was even possible? Why did the Department not make better use of the data made available by the Revenue Commissioners?

Mr. John McKeon

Briefly, real-time data information is made available in respect of employees by the Revenue Commissioners and I will return to that point. That data information is not available for the self-employed. We are only now getting in the self-employed returns for 2020; we only got them in November. We will go back and review all self-employed claims against those records to identify overpayments. We have approximately 200 staff who are currently engaged on maintaining the PUP. The detail may be online but a great deal of manual processing is involved. As the scheme transitions, we will keep those staff in place and they will be involved in a control project to identify overpayments that happen. We will follow up on those and pay particular attention to the self- employed group.

Regarding the employee group, there were some difficulties at the start of the process using the real-time look-up information facility in the way it was suggested, which is the way we are using it now. The first issue was that IT system we developed, which we did in four days, did not have direct links to Revenue, which it could not have had. We subsequently rebuilt it on our core platforms and that took a period of time. The second issue was that the real-time look-up agreement we had with Revenue prior to the pandemic was a single case by case look-up facility for data minimisation reasons. An officer had to manually type in a PPSN and get feedback on it. There was no mass or batch look-up facility. We had to put in place a new data sharing agreement with Revenue. The third constraint with our getting to grips with it was that it was a relatively new system at that stage. The terms and conditions for being eligible for the PUP was that a person had to be unemployed in the week prior to 13 March as the scheme was rolled out. When employers submit returns even with the real-time information facility, let me put it this way, they are not necessarily 100% accurate.

Mr. McKeon might wrap up his comments in response.

Mr. John McKeon

It will only take me a few seconds to respond to this last element. Employers pay people in advance, in arrears, weekly, fortnightly or monthly and having submitted returns they then submit corrections. Relying on those and for an employer to deny people a PUP payment where there may have been a data issue with the real-time look-up information would have been problematic. We have ironed out all these matters and we now do that now in real time. We not only do that when awarding claims we also do weekly checks.

Before I call Deputy Munster, I have a priority question I wish to ask and I had expected the Chairman, Deputy Stanley, to be here. Could a member of the committee come to the committee room and take the Chair?

I am happy to do that.

I thank Deputy McAuliffe for that. I call Deputy Munster and she has ten minutes.

I want to touch, first, on the issue of bogus self-employment. Where there is doubt or conflict, am I correct that responsibility would fall to the Department to determine if an individual is an employee or self-employed?

Mr. John McKeon

Kind of. Three groups or bodies are responsible for determining employment status for different purposes. We determine it in respect of social insurance. The Revenue Commissioners determine it in respect of whether somebody is a schedule E taxpayer or a self-employed taxpayer. The Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, determines it in the case of employment and unemployment rights. Linked to that, as the legislation currently is, we each have to decide in our own areas. Neither I nor my staff can decide on behalf of the WRC or on behalf of the Revenue and that can be where the confusion lies.

I thank Mr. McKeon for that response. Was it his Department that classified the courier sector or was it Revenue?

Mr. John McKeon

I do not think either of us classified any sector as one thing or another-----

The representatives from Revenue stated it does not classify anyone. They said that is the Department's job.

Mr. John McKeon

I do not think that is actually what Revenue said. To be clear, we do not classify a sector as one thing or another. Each case, and each worker, is assessed on its own merits. Even if we take the courier sector, because I understand there is some-----

I will come back to that in a moment. The courier deal arose following the consideration of a single case by the Department. Is that correct?

Mr. John McKeon

There was no courier deal.

I am talking about the deal that was done with Revenue, following on from the courier sector having been classified as self-employed.

Mr. John McKeon

I cannot speak for Revenue and I am not aware that is the case for Revenue either. Speaking for my Department-----

It arose from a single case.

Mr. John McKeon

-----there was no classification of one sector or entire groups of workers as being one thing or another. Every case is treated on its individual circumstances.

In February 2021, representatives from the Revenue Commissioners told the Committee of Public Accounts that all couriers are deemed to be self-employed by way a single precedent first used by the Department of Social Protection, dating from the 1990s. They clearly said it came from Mr. McKeon's Department. Were they wrong?

Mr. John McKeon

I cannot speak for the Revenue Commissioners. What I can say in regard to my Department, and maybe this will clear up some confusion on this-----

I apologise but my time is limited. Mr. McKeon stated the deal did not arise following the consideration of a single case by the Department. Did the Department have any further role in the broad classification of the courier sector, or any sector, based on a single case as enacted by Revenue?

Mr. John McKeon

No, there is a code of conduct-----

Mr. John McKeon

I think this is important.

I apologise. Does Mr. McKeon's Department carry out test cases?

Mr. John McKeon

No. If the Deputy will let me answer-----

Mr. John McKeon

I think it is important I answer because the Deputy is asking me-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe took the Chair.

I apologise but I asked Mr. McKeon a question. I asked whether his Department carries out test cases and his response was "No". This issue has been addressed in several Dáil replies. The Minister for Social Protection has stated a number of test cases were considered and that the chief appeals officer had advised a number of test cases were considered in the 1990s. In 2016, the then Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Varadkar, stated, “A number of test cases in relation to the Electricity Supply Board (ESB) Contract Meter Readers were investigated by Scope in recent years.” In January 2019, the Social Welfare Appeals Office stated, “On occasion over the years an approach of having 'test cases' has been taken ... by the Social Welfare Appeals Office.” In 2000, the then Secretary General of the then Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs stated that in order to resolve the matter, a number of representative test cases had been selected. Mr. McKeon, however, has said that is not true.

Mr. John McKeon

If the Deputy will let me explain that-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Munster, we might allow the witness-----

(Interruptions).

My question was very direct-----

Mr. John McKeon

The Deputy has not let me give an answer.

Deputy Munster might allow Mr. McKeon to respond to the question.

Mr. John McKeon

First, we have to define a test case, so let me do that, if I may. A suggestion has been made the Department took a test case with regard to a particular sector and, on the basis of that test case, then determined that everybody in a sector fell within a particular category. As I said, we did not do that. What the Department did - this is going back to the 1990s, long before my time - was to have a look at a number of cases to try to determine what criteria could be used, applying the common law handed down by the courts, to classify somebody as employed or self-employed. It came up with five tests, which are to do with mutuality of obligation, integration, ability to control, enterprise tests and so on, and those tests are now applied to every case individually. If the Deputy wants to say we took a test case to establish the criteria, then that is what we did, but those criteria are applied individually to each worker.

The chief appeals officer can probably comment on this. On rare occasions, particularly in the appeals space, if all the employees and an employer agree to have a group of workers who are in a similar position with the same employer, evaluated based on taking a sample, that may happen, but it is very rare. All the individual workers have to agree, the employer has to agree and each worker gets a separate, independent determination, which he or she can then appeal. That is not the same as people saying one can do a test case and what comes out of that case determines all subsequent cases. That is not what happens.

Can Mr. McKeon give other examples, such as in media or construction, where one Scope determination has given rise to the classification of a sector, as was the case with the courier sector?

Mr. John McKeon

No, I cannot but that has not happened with the courier sector. That is wrong. It has not happened with the courier sector.

Is Mr. McKeon saying the courier sector as a group is not classed as self-employed?

Mr. John McKeon

No, each person who comes looking for a determination gets his or her determination based on his or her own merits. To give an example, my Department has staff who work as couriers because they bring documents back and forth around our offices. They are employees of the Department; they are not self-employed. The staff of some of the big courier companies, such as An Post, are not self-employed. It is nonsense to suggest everybody who works in the courier industry is classified as self-employed. It is just nonsense.

Mr. McKeon is saying couriers are not deemed to be self-employed.

Mr. John McKeon

Some are and some are not.

Is it legal to deem a group of workers as self-employed? For example, could all journalists in Ireland be deemed self-employed tomorrow?

Mr. John McKeon

I do not understand the question. I am not trying to be difficult-----

In the courier sector, the majority of them are deemed to be self-employed. Revenue has confirmed that. It set out the four criteria used to class them as self-employed. Is that classification not correct?

Mr. John McKeon

As I said, I cannot speak for Revenue. If I understand the Deputy's question, she is saying Revenue uses criteria to make a judgment. I suspect that is the case but that is not to say the judgment in each case is the same.

At no stage did the Department carry out a test case on which basis Revenue deemed couriers, in the 1997 deal, to be self-employed. Is that correct?

The Deputy has one minute remaining.

Mr. John McKeon

I cannot speak for Revenue. All I can say is what I have said about our Department-----

I am sure Mr. McKeon will have looked over the Official Report of the meeting of last week. The representatives from Revenue stated the decision was down to Mr. McKeon's Department.

Mr. John McKeon

I am not sure that is what they actually said-----

It is what they said.

Mr. John McKeon

The Deputy should probably take that up again with Revenue. In terms of social insurance classification, we treat every case on its own merits. We apply criteria agreed by the trade unions and the employers as part of the code of conduct for determination of employment or self-employment, in line with the partnership agreements in the early 2000s. They are the five factors I spoke about. Each case is determined based on those factors and each individual gets an individual assessment based on those factors. That is our practice.

Mr. McKeon is-----

I thank Mr. McKeon and Deputy Munster. We move now to Deputy Hourigan.

Do I not have one further minute?

I did notify the Deputy when she had one minute left, although it was in the middle of an exchange between her and Mr. McKeon.

Okay, I will come back in later.

I welcome the witnesses and thank Mr. McKeon for attending even though he is not feeling well. I thank them also for the huge body of information they sent to the committee, which contains a large volume of data. My first question relates to the applications and appeals process for more complex applications, such as the disability allowance and the carer's allowance. I have to say, this brick of information has defeated me somewhat. I can see the table of appeals but not the figure for how many applications, such as for the disability allowance, were received in the past 12 months, for example. What is the most recent figure for that?

Mr. John McKeon

I might ask the chief appeals officer to speak on that. I am trying to think off the top of my head what the number of applications on the disability allowance would be each year. One of my colleagues might be able to come in and help me there. I am away from the office so I cannot check.

That is fine. I believe from last year that it was somewhere in the region of 20,000 applications.

Mr. John McKeon

We currently have approximately 150,000 or thereabouts people in receipt of disability allowance. I think from memory that we get approximately 20,000 applications per year. Do not quote me on that but maybe the chief appeals officer who deals with the process, which I believe is what the Deputy is most interested in, can come in.

Ms Joan Gordon

I thank the Deputy. Some 55% of all appeals received relate to illness, caring and the disability schemes. In terms of receipts, I think the Deputy is interested in disability allowance and domiciliary care allowance. To date in 2021, we have received 4,597 disability allowance appeals. The equivalent for 2020 was 6,661.

I am sorry; I do not mean to cut Ms Gordon off. She is referring to appeals, however.

Ms Joan Gordon

Yes.

I have the table of appeals in front of me. I am asking for the number of original applications and not the number of people who have appealed. I presume the figure for original applications is somewhere around that 20,000 figure. Is it correct that would that be the average for that kind of time period?

Ms Joan Gordon

I am afraid I do not have the numbers in terms of the original decisions. These are the appeal receipts.

Exactly. I suppose this comes to the nub of the issue I want to ask about. I would be very appreciative if somebody could perhaps furnish me with that number afterwards.

Let us work on the basis that it is vaguely similar year-on-year and we are dealing with a number that is in and around 20,000, and we have an appeals process, let us say, in the disability allowance of between 6,000 and 7,000 on average. What would the rate for success be in terms of having a revised appeal in the disability allowance, for example?

Ms Joan Gordon

In general, the schemes with the highest success rates for the appellant are those schemes relating to illness, disability or care. That is to be expected given the nature of the questions that are to be determined, which by definition require a high level of judgment, for example, on the impact of the disability and the appellant's capacity to engage in work.

Would it be fair to say that it is in the region of 50%, for example?

Ms Joan Gordon

It is a little higher actually. It is probably approximately 60%.

I realise that Ms Gordon is the appeals expert but in the first instance when somebody puts in his or her application, that goes to a staff member in the Department who is not an appeals officer. Is that correct?

Ms Joan Gordon

That is correct.

Then that person might get a formal refusal and then come to Ms Gordon with an appeal.

Ms Joan Gordon

Yes. There are a number of options at that point open to a person who gets a negative decision. They can ask the Department to conduct a review and they can submit an appeal. They can actually pursue both of those courses of action at the same time.

Okay. Do we know as a percentage how many people are refused? Let us say, there are approximately 20,000 applications. If there is a 50% refusal rate, that is 10,000 people. Therefore, there is a shortfall of 3,000 people who do not appeal. Would it be fair to say that figure is in the ballpark?

Ms Joan Gordon

I am stepping out of my zone here but in terms of the percentage of appeals, the Department makes approximately 2 million decisions, 85% of which are successful. A percentage will come to us on appeal. There will, therefore, be a cohort of people who do not either pursue an appeal or a review and they accept the decision.

Okay. I thank the Department very much for the case studies in the briefing it sent us. The case studies are very helpful but what stood out to me in many of the case studies was the simple fact that people did not supply the correct information or enough information. Would that be fair to say?

Mr. John McKeon

I think that is the case. Routinely at the appeal stage, and again I am going to speak about the appeal process, appellants submit additional evidence that they have not provided to the Department. There is probably some anecdotal evidence that appellants feel the need to hold back some medical evidence, or any evidence, for the appeal process in order to have something at the appeal stage. Both the Department and I, in my role with the decisions advisory office, will work with the advocacy groups to ensure that people submit the information.

I looked back at previous appearances of the Department before the Committee of Public Accounts and I know that is something that has been raised with it before. In terms of the cost to the Department, has it done any kind of review on the unit costing of the service that an appeals officer provides as opposed to an ordinary staff member who is reviewing an application? Is the issue that there simply is not enough information? As somebody who has gone through the process of applying for carer's allowance, to get a refusal would, I can imagine, be quite distressing. If the issue is simply that there is not enough information, is there a cost to the Department insofar as moving it up a grade to the appeals process rather than the original staff member saying that the Department needs more information from a person?

Mr. John McKeon

Perhaps I will come in on that. To go back to the Deputy's earlier question, I have managed to check the number of applications on the disability allowance. Last year, 21,000 claims for disability allowance were registered. Therefore, approximately 4,000 appeals, approximately one fifth of them, were registered. Of that-----

I am sorry. Of the 21,000 applications, how many were refused?

Mr. John McKeon

I do not have that information in front of me but we can get it and we will send it to the Deputy. Of the 21,000 claims that were received and processed, we subsequently got 4,000 appeals or thereabouts. That is approximately one fifth of those cases. Roughly 60% of those are passed on appeal and, in most cases, on review. To get to the Deputy's point, we are looking at 60% of 20%. Therefore, we are looking at roughly 12%. That is, therefore, an overhead in roughly around 12% of the cases. Many of those would have been done by the same staff member in the Department. The difference is that an appeals officer is generally an assistant principal grade and our deciding officers are generally clerical officer or executive officer grade. There is, therefore, a cost differential if I can put it in those terms.

I might interrupt Mr. McKeon. Deputy Hourigan should note that we have one minute remaining.

I thank the Acting Chairman. Mr. McKeon can go ahead.

Mr. John McKeon

There is, therefore, a great differential but when cases come in for appeal, as we said in our opening statement, it is a quasi-judicial process. The staff who look at them are familiar with the law. They are very highly trained on the law and how the law applies to scheme criteria. On medical schemes, for example, it is a subjective judgment on what constitutes a significant level of care or what constitutes a significant incapacity-----

I take that point and I know Mr. McKeon said 12% but I would say that rate of appeal success is significant. I know some of the case studies the Department gave us were quite complex around the interaction with different jurisdictions or the UK or whatever. Where the issue is simply insufficient information, it seems that a review of the unit costing of the appeals process as opposed to simply asking people for more information instead of refusing their application would perhaps be better value for money.

Mr. John McKeon

I will just answer that question if I may, Acting Chairman. I think there are a couple of issues.

We are out of time, Mr. McKeon.

Mr. John McKeon

This will only take a moment. One of the issues is that generally speaking when people fall ill or they have a care requirement, and this is something we are considering, they submit a claim because the date from which they will be paid is the date of the claim.

Even while they are awaiting a report from a consultant or doctor, the advice that advocacy groups give them is to get the claim in first. For this exact reason in disability and carer's allowance schemes we also allow people to come back and ask for a review of the decision instead of going to the appeals office. It is dealt with in order that people are given that opportunity. That is what I think drives this behaviour.

I thank Mr. McKeon and all of the officials for the work they have done over the past 18 months. It has been an extremely difficult time for everyone. I thank them for the supports provided on very short notice. I want to touch on the issue the Acting Chair, Deputy McAuliffe, raised about local employment services procurement. One of the concerns raised by some of the people working in the area is that someone working in the service for more than 20 years might be on a high salary scale while another group tendering might have people with two or three years' experience who would be on a lower pay grade. How will this be dealt with when processing applications? Will Mr. McKeon outline what are the consequences for not following the legal advice? What penalties can be imposed if we do not follow the legal advice about going through the tendering process? Has the Department engaged, and what level of engagement has there been, with the local employment schemes over recent months on this issue?

Mr. John McKeon

There has been quite extensive engagement on this with local employment services dating back to 2018 and 2019. When we received the advice we did not rush into it. We took a very slow and deliberate approach. There were three separate independent consultant reports. In all cases the consultants engaged with local employment services. The Department has had 140 separate engagements with the sector over this period, including meetings with every chief executive of every local employment service and every job club and dealings with unions. There has been quite a lot of engagement and I will detail some of it. All of the CEOs of the local development companies were briefed in 2018 on what we were doing and what had to happen. In 2019, Indecon briefed all of the local employment services and job clubs together with the Department. All of the local employment services and job clubs were visited by the Department individually in 2019. The Institute of Employment Studies consulted with all of them in 2020. The Minister and the Department meet representatives of the Irish Local Development Network regularly. With regard to the trade unions, we have had six meetings with them going back as far as 2019. On 9 November, we held a detailed briefing session on the outcome of the first phase of the tender and sought feedback on the design of the next phase. There has been quite extensive consultation. I know one of the issues, and this is not just with regard to local employment services, is that sometimes people say we were there but we did not listen to them. There is a limit to what we can change as a consequence. We have listened and we try to take on board all of the feedback we can, to the extent that we can within the law.

With regard to the Deputy's question on what would happen if we did not do it, the Government cannot knowingly break the law. I will put it that way. Once we know it we cannot unknow it. The Government could not knowingly break the law. The Government is meant to stand up and apply the law. I do not think that is an option. We would be open to suit by other potential providers. The European Commission could take enforcement proceedings of its own volition. There would be quite serious consequences.

With regard to the point made on the various pay rates, various providers and various costs, after careful deliberation we have taken an approach in our tender that the marks for price are as low as we can make them. Normally, and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform can confirm this, the marks awarded in any tender process for price are typically 40% or even higher in some cases. In the tenders we issued in the four phases where we did the first phase recruitment, price accounted for 25%. Service quality and, in particular, community and social connections accounted for the remaining 75%. A lot of the marks are awarded to recognise exactly the point the Deputy has made on the value of experience in social connections. We prize the marks towards these. Many of the providers have been described as moving towards a profit-based model. Other providers that are entitled to compete will compete, and if they get through the process they will be awarded fairly. If we think about it logically, if some providers have to add a profit margin on top of their costs while others do not so there is some equalisation there. We cannot release the report of the Institute of Employment Studies in full because it gives us its views on what appropriate costs would be. We have set a minimum price, which is very rare, below which any tender is not accepted.

I want to move on to another issue, which is social welfare appeals and disability regarding people who have worked and who have been self-employed. There is a particular case I want to highlight as an issue. A person has been diagnosed with MS and can no longer work. I have been dealing with the Department on this case for more than 12 months. The issue is that the person has a mortgage of €1,000 a month. In order for this to be paid the person has let out rooms. All of the rent is going towards the mortgage but the Department is treating it as income. The person is now in receipt of €50 per week. Everyone knows MS is not an easy condition to manage. I am surprised by the way the Department is assessing it and not taking into account the mortgage. This person would not qualify for a local authority house. If the person sells the house and goes on the market to rent it would cost €1,200 to €1,400 a month. The person has been very careful about managing these affairs but the Department is taking the rent for the letting of rooms as an income. People who are working and earning €50,000 a year and earning €14,000 from letting rooms would not be taxed on it. We have gone to the other extreme in dealing with social welfare.

Mr. John McKeon

I ask the Deputy to send me the details directly. I am not familiar with this particular case. If the Deputy sends me the details directly I assure him we will look into it. We are bound by the legislation and maybe this is an issue.

If the regulation is penalising someone who has a genuine case is it not time to change the regulation?

Mr. John McKeon

That is what I am saying. If the Deputy sends me the details the Department's deciding officers and the appeals officer will have a look at it. This is set out in primary legislation and Ms Gordon might confirm if this is the case.

We are now in different times and this is a genuine case where a person has been diagnosed with something about which they can do nothing. The only way of making sure there is a roof over their head is to get an income to pay the mortgage on the house.

Mr. John McKeon

I accept with the Deputy is saying. If the Deputy sends me the details we will have a look at it. I have personal knowledge of the impact of multiple sclerosis and I hear what the Deputy is saying. If the individual's case is within the current law there is nothing we can do. The supplementary welfare allowance scheme is also available. I ask the Deputy to send me the details and we will have a look at it.

Community employment schemes are now complaining that a sufficient number of people are not being referred to them. What action is being taken by the Department to deal with this issue?

Mr. John McKeon

At present there are approximately 80 to 100 vacancies on community employment schemes. Referrals were impacted by the pandemic. We have extended the duration for which current participants can stay on the scheme until next year to try to manage this issue.

The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, and Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, are personally engaged with this and I expect proposals to deal with it fairly shortly. One slightly disappointing thing I encourage employment organisations to look at is that they only accept one in five, on average, of the people we refer to them. That is an issue we have to look at as well. The majority of the people we refer to the Tús organisations, by comparison, are taken into their schemes. Community employment schemes tend to be a bit more selective, for whatever reason.

Deputy Catherine Murphy resumed the Chair.

I thank the witnesses for attending. I thank staff in the Department of Social Protection, in particular, for all of the work they have done in processing the huge number of claims in recent years. I have also had the chance to observe over time the responsiveness of the Department on day-to-day issues. It is set apart from every other Department, in my experience as a Deputy. I get a response and a representation number and matters are followed up without the need to issue a reminder. The Department is exceptionally responsive and I thank all of the staff, through Mr. McKeon. Being able to get back to people is very much appreciated. That is my experience. I thank him again for coming in as I know he has not been well.

The PUP was an extraordinary piece of work. Mr. McKeon spoke about the different information systems that have been built up. This week, the system has been reopened. For people who have been able to apply, it has been a great system, but I will go into some of the concerns about fraud. What are Mr. McKeon's concerns about the scale of potentially fraudulent PUP claims? What is the Department doing to prevent that this time around? What are Mr. McKeon's thoughts about people who have made a PUP claim and did not have a PRSI background with the Department? We have some other questions on the eligibility of the self-employed. How easy was it to distinguish how and whether somebody was self-employed? One of the great successes of the PUP is how well it worked. One of the concerns people have is how it may have been manipulated by some.

Mr. John McKeon

I will pass the Deputy's thanks on to the staff in terms of her engagement with them. Talking about fraud is always difficult. We do not subscribe, as I said previously, to the skiver or striver stuff in some of the red-top newspapers from time to time.

Mr. John McKeon

I know from previous engagements that the Deputy does not subscribe to it either. However, I want to say that for our observers because we are about to discuss fraud which can get the headlines. In reality, the overwhelming majority of people who use this are absolutely entitled to payment and it is a valid payment. We must always balance trying to control against fraud and overpayments due to our own error against not frustrating people's entitlement. It will never be got right. Especially with the pandemic unemployment payment, if that balance had to be tipped one way or the other, our judgment was to tip it towards the presumption of honesty rather than dishonesty. That is how we would generally try to operate anyway.

In terms of the level of incorrect payment, if I could call it that, our own estimate, which may change, is that it is approximately 6%. This information was not available to the Comptroller and Auditor General when his team was in but the Deputy will be aware the Government took a decision to give full contributions, rather than credited contributions, to people who were in receipt of the pandemic unemployment payment. We have done an exercise, using the Revenue records and our own records, of matching when people were on PUP and when they were in employment and then filling in the gaps. From that, it looks like the figure is approximately 6%.

The question is how much of that is fraud and how much of it is for some other reason. When the pandemic unemployment payment was introduced, there was no social insurance conditionality to it. We spoke to the Minister at the time, and the Deputy may remember there were certain sectors of the economy which were very concerned that they were excluded, such as those in the informal economy who would normally go to our community welfare service but because of social distancing, restrictions and so on, they could not have access to that in the normal way.

Sex workers would be one such group. There were religious confraternities as well, across Christian and non-Christian faiths, such as mendicant orders which would not have been social insurance contributors and suddenly had no weekly collection and were on their uppers. In those situations, our choice was to tell them they should not be travelling and our offices were closed or to give them the payment. A decision was taken to give them the payment and then subsequently go back over it. There were those kind of cases, which are not fraud. They may be irregular payments but they are not fraud.

The other issue the Deputy was raised was self-employment. Self-employment is a difficulty because the returns are made annually and when they are made they are made on a whole-year basis. The Revenue returns are, therefore, for the entire year, rather than week by week throughout the year. We are setting up a project to do this, as recommended by the Comptroller and Auditor General. We have to look and compare the income of the people who declared themselves as self-employed for the 2019 year and for the 2020 year and make an assessment as to which of those it looks as though their income was sustained, even though they were claiming the PUP and go back and review each of those cases on an individual basis. That is what we intend to do.

That was part of the difficulty with trying to establish that in terms of people in the informal economy, such as taxi drivers and others who were working in a self-employed capacity but not necessarily every week and did not have the same visibility of their work as others, being assessed differently. Will Mr. McKeon tell us about the analysis that will be done? When will it be done?

Mr. John McKeon

We have started the planning on it. We have a particular pandemic unemployment payment control board, which is headed by our deputy secretary. Planning is well under way. We would have intended to start in January, except the pandemic unemployment payment has been reintroduced. As I mentioned, the Department has some 200 staff managing that scheme for us. If the scheme were to unwind and transition out of payment at the end of January or into February, as planned, those staff would then be directed to this activity. That may still be the case but it will be dependent on developments between now and then.

I will ask about the group of people described in the informal economy coming to attention and being able to try to provide them supports. Can we identify that group as potentially needing support in the future? How would we do that, having become aware of them and having had a formal contact with the Department? What does Mr. McKeon envisage that this body of learning will mean later?

Mr. John McKeon

In the normal situation, there are groups we would help with the supplementary welfare allowance scheme and in such a situation, we have the processing capacity to do it that way. In the context of the pandemic, that processing capacity or capability was not there. We will probably still rely on a supplementary welfare allowance scheme for those cases.

How does the Social Welfare Appeals Office maintain appropriate operational independence? What safeguards does it have? The office seems to be quite intertwined with the Department. The chief appeals officer sits on the management board. What is Mr. McKeon's comfort around how operationally independent it is?

Mr. John McKeon

I will say something and then I will ask the chief appeals officer to contribute. Many of the deciding officers in the Department think it is far too independent. The office exercises its independence. It is a statutory function. On the couple of occasions cases have gone to court, the courts have always commented positively on its independence. I will ask the chief appeals officer to say something on that.

Ms Joan Gordon

The independence of the office is paramount to us and it has been observed and nurtured closely over many years. There is no sustained or concerted criticism relating to the independence of the office, me or the appeals officers and we are required to carry out our statutory functions independently. Having a relationship with the Department and my being on the management board does not tarnish that independence.

The fact we have a relationship and that I am on the management board does not tarnish that independence. As the Secretary General has said, there are many in the Department who think we are far too independent. If evidence was needed, it is to be found in the high number of successful appeals. For example, at the end of October-----

I appreciate that but we have also heard about the complex reasons that might be so, particularly with regard to carers and disability. I note the Comptroller and Auditor General has commented on the oral hearings and written procedures and the level of discretion available in that regard. As I understand it, oral hearings are held essentially at the discretion of the appeals officer. There is no written policy I am aware of as to why they should be called. It is just left up to the appeals officer. That is not the sort of procedure that gives confidence in the independence of a structure to those on the outside. Has the Department carried out any analysis of how and when oral hearings are carried out? Has it done anything since the publication of the Comptroller and Auditor General's analysis?

Ms Joan Gordon

Under legislation, the holding of oral hearings is left to the discretion of the appeals officer. We have conferences, and had more in the past when it was possible for us to meet in person, at which we discuss issues regarding when an oral hearing might be required. It is difficult to set out broad guidelines but we have now put some up on our website. These oral hearings are usually held where there are unresolved conflicts in the evidence, some dispute as to the facts or differing opinions, whether medical opinions or other professional opinions, which require teasing out. I am not sure this matter impinges on our independence. We have not been challenged and there has been no evidence of a lack of independence. I am confident we are independent and that we carry out our functions independently, as we and the deciding officers in the Department are required to under the legislation.

That is fine but there is no harm in being questioned about it by the Comptroller and Auditor General or the Committee of Public Accounts.

Ms Joan Gordon

Absolutely, there is not.

It is always possible to improve as an institution. There is discretion available to judges of the Circuit Court, the High Court and the District Court but there are still processes, court rules, sentencing guidelines and so on. I am sure Ms Gordon does not feel it is inappropriate for her to be questioned about these matters.

Ms Joan Gordon

Absolutely not. I fully welcome such questioning. As I have said, we have put information on the circumstances that usually result in an oral hearing being held up on our website. There was some material there already. The Supreme Court has commented on when such hearings are required. We have updated that. I have absolutely no difficulty with that.

Yes, the Deputy is a bit over time. We will let her back in if time allows. We will now take a short break.

Sitting suspended at 11.03 a.m. and resumed at 11.15 a.m.
Deputy John McGuinness took the Chair.

I thank the Chair for letting me in because I am heading for Leaders' Questions shortly. I wish everybody a good morning and thank them for attending. I will concentrate on the Department's decision to introduce Pathways to Work 2021-2025. This will, in effect, abolish local employment services so that we can be in line with EU procurement regulations. I have had extensive engagement with local employment services, which have helped thousands of people find gainful employment since the 1990s. They are basically left with two choices. They can either tender to be part of the future arrangements or they can choose not to tender. There are a number of factors involved in making those choices. The new scheme, Pathways to Work, sets impossible timelines. Even though the Minister tells me there was extensive engagement with stakeholders in developing the document, if the local employment services that currently deliver these programmes, which have local knowledge and experience, say the timelines are impossible, I have to question how they came about. They say they cannot provide the service within their budget because the whole service is front-loaded. That makes it financially unsustainable for the existing local employment services to tender. This means all of their staff will be made redundant. I presume the Secretary General has heard the term "stuck between a rock and a hard place". That is where the employees in the local employment services, LESs, find themselves.

The new scheme allows for a maximum of 438 clients per year for the entire county of Wexford. Some 1,350 people availed of the services of the LES in the county in the last year. That does not include walk-ins. The Department's proposal is to reduce that number by 900. That is very concerning. How was that figure arrived at?

Where will the LES workers find themselves in the case of redundancy? How does the Department propose to deal with their future? Will they be made redundant or employed by the successful tenderer? Will there be a transfer of undertakings and so on for existing employees of the LESs?

Mr. John McKeon

I will mention a couple of things. With regard to the timelines, there has been extensive consultation. I will not go back into that because I am conscious of time but this has been in the offing for quite a few years now.

The Deputy is right. The existing providers of local employment services will have a choice as to whether to tender. I hope they all will and that they will collaborate in doing so. They are the sitting tenants and are well positioned. There may be competition from other providers and it will be an open and fair competition but the existing providers are well positioned. With regard to the evidence for this, as I have said, the approach we took was to start tendering in four areas where there was not currently a local employment service. In two out of the three areas for which they tendered, the partnerships, the local development companies, were successful, so I believe they can succeed.

We will be giving an extended tender period to enable all providers to put together a good tender response and to enable them to figure out collaboration locally.

The numbers who will be referred to the service are ultimately determined by the number of people who are unemployed. There is no set number. I am not sure where the number of 438 came from. It may be from one of the consultant's reports. I do not have the papers in front of me.

When one looks at how this is structured and divvy it out that is what the figure boils down to and we have looked at it extensively. The figure may vary from county to county but certainly that is per employee how it has been worked out and I will explain. Approximately there is a caseload currently of 150 with nine guidance officers and their workload currently is 1,350 and under the new scheme they have worked it out to be 438. Yes, it would be different for each county.

Mr. John McKeon

We have not published the tender yet so we have not set out numbers. The numbers that will be referred, and we will give it and part of the tender will be a guaranteed minimum referral level which will be set at a rate so that it will make the service sustainable. We will not be looking for people to commit.

The Deputy mentioned the upfront payment. We are in this model and 90% of the payments will be paid when people are referred and the personal progression plan is registered. So it will be an upfront payment, predominantly, at 90%. We will also, as part of the model, be frontloading payments to support cashflow. We have taken those feedbacks and we will be doing that. I honestly believe that they will be in a good position.

Is there a maximum referral?

Mr. John McKeon

No. Let me put it this way. People think that there are difficulties. I jotted down the numbers during the break. We have currently 256,000 people in receipt of income supports around the State. We have about 300,000 people on the employment wage subsidy scheme some of whom, unfortunately, will end up. Of the 256,000, about 170,000 of those are long-term unemployed. At a caseload for long-term unemployed, which is internationally recognised, of about 125:1, we probably need about 1,300 employment advisers. Between ourselves, the local employment services and JobPath at the moment we have about 1,000. There is more than enough work to go around. Under the Pathways to Work strategy, the Government has committed to extending the offer of employment services to lone parents on a voluntary basis, to people with disabilities and to qualified adults. There is more than enough work to go around. I do not think the volume of referrals will be a problem honestly.

As I understand it, from what Mr. McKeon has said, no; but if there is a cut-off point and a maximum level then clearly, yes. That does financially determine how a tender would work.

Mr. McKeon has said that the tender has not been issued yet. Is he telling me that, for instance, Wexford Local Development Local Employment Service, WLDLES, will not have seen a tender?

Mr. John McKeon

They will have seen the tender that issued for Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, Longford, Westmeath and Laois-Offaly.

Is it not going to be the same?

Mr. John McKeon

We are making some changes to it based on feedback.

When can we see those changes?

Mr. John McKeon

We expect to finalise them in the next week or two. For procurement reasons, they will be visible when we publish the tender.

Can I presume that Mr. McKeon is aware that an Oireachtas committee, on the same day that the Department decided to move forward, said that the LES should be left in place and was doing a good job?

Mr. John McKeon

I am aware of that, Deputy. Again, my statutory responsibility as Accounting Officer is to advise the Minister on the governance and legal obligations and that is what I have to do.

I appreciate that. I must go to the Dáil Chamber to discuss, during Leaders' Questions, what we call a home care support package. Again, somebody in the Department decided that they would give 1.5 million extra hours towards the home care support package. That is brilliant except when one gets a letter to say that one has been granted the home care support package but there is a line that says the service cannot be delivered. That is my concern here. The Department has engaged with the stakeholders but I am very concerned that it appears to be a box ticking exercise because it will not be delivered.

Mr. John McKeon

I can assure the Deputy that we are doing everything that we can within the law. If she saw the consultant's report, which most people have at this stage, there is a recommendation, for example, that the performance element would be 25% and not 10%, that the pricing under tender would be higher and that there would be far fewer regions. We have actually moved as far as we can.

How much time have I left?

Twenty seconds.

We may have to come back to a matter.

I will let the Deputy back in a second time if time allows.

Can Mr. McKeon tell us what the proposal is in terms of redundancies should the applicants in the LES not be the successful tenders?

Mr. John McKeon

What we would hope, and I can say what the position is in the areas where the job clubs have not been part of the tender consortium that won, the providers that have won those areas have offered the existing staff employment on the same terms and conditions that are currently employed and that is what we would be looking to achieve.

If employees decide not to take that up, I cannot say that there will be or there will not be redundancies. A lot of the providers - I would hope that they would get through - if they do not get though have other activities. They or their staff are not entirely reliant----

Deputy Verona Murphy: So the Department-----

Mr. John McKeon: They may decide to offer redundancy to their staff and that would be a matter for the providers to determine.

Is Mr. McKeon saying that effectively there will be a transfer of undertakings, with the same terms and conditions?

Mr. John McKeon

That is one of the things we are looking at at the moment within procurement rules and if that will apply. That is one of the reasons why we have not yet finalised the tender. I can say that the providers who were successful in the first phase have offered the existing staff the same terms and conditions of employment and engaged with the unions about that.

I may come back in again if I get back from Leaders' Questions.

I call Deputy Matt Carthy who has ten minutes.

I apologise for not being here for my earlier slot as I had to attend oral questions in the Dáil. I thank Mr. McKeon and his colleagues for being here.

I have a brief question on the public services card. I note that at the time the Data Protection Commission published its renowned report that the cost up until 2019 were declared as being €67.8 million within the ten years existence of the card. However, the recent cost benefit analysis of the project sets the cost at €98.4 million. Is there a reason for the substantial jump of over €30 million?

Mr. John McKeon

There are a couple of factors. It is not quite like with like and I will explain that. The first is the 2019 figure, which was previously used, was I think up to that point June 2019 as opposed to full year 2019 so there is a time gap.

The second issue, the figure that was previously given was the net cost to the Government, excluding VAT, because the Government pays VAT to itself. For the purpose of the cost benefit analysis a conservative approach was taken of factoring in the VAT as a cost even though, from a Government perspective, it is not actually a cost.

The third element is that the cost, which was published in the cost benefit analysis, also included the online myGov.ie service. It was not just a public services card. It was the combined public services card and the myGov.ie service.

So for that €98.4 million cost, which Mr. McKeon has said is a conservative figure to make sure that everything is incorporated, what date would that be attributable to now?

Mr. John McKeon

I will have to check and I can come back to him on it. I think it is up to the end of 2019.

Is it just up to the end of 2019?

Mr. John McKeon

I think so but I will have to come back on that.

Mr. McKeon might come back on that and on the annual cost for 2020 and perhaps 2021 seeing as we are in its latter stage.

According to the decision made by the Data Protection Commission, the card is illegal when made compulsory for accessing non-welfare services. This matter is being challenged through the courts so I will not say anything that will prejudice the case. In the event that the Data Protection Commissioner's decision was upheld, would an additional cost be attributable to the Department to destroy the associated records?

Mr. John McKeon

I do not want to say anything about the court case while it is still going on. It would obviously depend. Any action that requires the destruction of records will obviously have a cost but we will see what comes out.

Would there be a substantial cost? I am asking as someone who would not fully understand-----

Mr. John McKeon

It depends on the outcome and on what is required. One of the difficulties will be that we currently have approximately 3.5 million users currently of the public service card, most of whom use it for welfare and other purposes. Trying to distinguish those who are only using it for purposes other than welfare might be quite difficult.

I am sure we can come back to that and I will look forward to receiving a written response to that later.

I wish to return to the issue of local employment services. Deputy Verona Murphy mentioned the report of a committee. In fact two committees of this House, the Committee of Public Accounts and the Joint Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands have launched reports which have recommended the retention of job clubs and of the local employment services model. The Dáil, by unanimous resolution last week, also adopted such a resolution. Is it the Department’s position that it is rejecting all of those outcomes?

Mr. John McKeon

It is not open to the Department to ignore the law; I will put it that way. The law is pretty clear on this as I am advised.

If the law has been so clear, how have we been operating a system since the mid to late 1990s? Is Mr. Keon essentially saying we were operating illegally?

Mr. John McKeon

The EU procurement directive came in in 2014. The issue arose when the Social Inclusion and Community Activation Programme, SICAP, was tendered for in 2014, as the Deputy may recall. Shortly after that, the Chief State Solicitor’s office identified that the services that we were providing for local employment services and job clubs seemed to meet the criteria that they should be tendered for as well. We had an engagement with the Chief State Solicitor’s office at that stage and subsequently with the Attorney General’s office, which confirmed that position. We then set about a process of rectifying the situation which involved two and a half to three years of consultations before we went ahead.

Mr. McKeon referred to the EU regulation of 2014. Did the Chief State Solicitor’s office contact the Department out of the blue or how did that engagement take place? Who contacted who?

Mr. John McKeon

I cannot be sure, Deputy, as I was not engaged in it myself at the time. My understanding is that arising from the SICAP, which involves many of the same companies, this came to the attention of the Chief State Solicitor’s office.

Does Mr. McKeon not know who brought it to the attention of the Chief State Solicitor’s office?

Mr. John McKeon

It would have been investigating at the time, I suspect, and it would certainly have come to its attention as it was giving advice on SICAP and would have looked into the type of services being provided, which are very similar.

When mentioning SICAP, it might be useful to point out that the Department paid a lot of attention to the debate last week and one of the things that struck me about it was that many of the exact same concerns were expressed in June 2014 in a similar Dáil Private Members’ motion which was introduced by Deputy Ó Cuív at the time. Many of the concerns expressed then about the consequences and the inability of partnership companies, and so on, to engage and what that would mean for them, were exactly the same ones that are being expressed now. I hope that this will give comfort to the firms involved that the fears they had about SICAP turned out to be largely unfounded.

Dealing with this specific issue, the Attorney General has provided legal advice that essentially says that the current model is illegal. Is that correct?

Mr. John McKeon

Yes, we need to go to procurement.

Does that advice say that we need to go to procurement on a regional basis as opposed to the largely county structure that is currently in place?

Mr. John McKeon

The structure that is currently in place is not quite a county one. Leaving that aside, the decision to go for regional structures was that when we got the advice about going to tender, we had to look at what we were going to tender for. We engaged a number of consultancy firms to have a look at this. They came up with the proposal. I mentioned to one of the Deputy’s colleagues, which the Deputy may have missed out on earlier on, that in respect of the local employment schemes, LES, and the job clubs, between them we have currently 66 different locations around the country. As the Deputy can see it is not entirely-----

I accept that point and I prefaced that question by-----

Mr. John McKeon

The service is quite fragmented.

-----saying “largely”. I am conscious of the weight that was being put on this legal advice. It is fair to say that the legal advice did not stipulate the geographical basis or otherwise of the tendering process. That was an internal decision by the Department.

Mr. John McKeon

That is absolutely fair and the Deputy is correct in saying that. The way we are doing this is informed, as I said to some of the Deputy’s colleagues earlier, by trying to come up with an administrative structure which gives transparency and aligns the services in geographic areas that make sense, rather than having 26 LES and 40 job clubs in particular areas and------

On the directive-----

Mr. John McKeon

It is integrated. If I may finish on this. One of the big issues that came out in the consultancy was that the customer journey between the LES, the job clubs, Intreo and ourselves was not very well integrated. One then has to have a look at how one allocates.

The other point I made to some of the Deputy’s colleagues earlier is that we have not finalised the lot sizes. The consultants either recommended 15 or 17. It will be more than that but equally, and as a Border Deputy he will be familiar with this, it does not mean that the existing service providers have to change their own geographic focus. What has happened, for example, in Donegal and in Sligo-Leitrim is that the various job clubs providers in those areas got together and put in a collaborative bid and I hope that other providers would do the same as well.

Has Mr. McKeon’s Department returned at all to the Attorney General to point out that the EU directive he cited also states that a member state is not obliged to “contract out...the provision of services that they wish to provide themselves or to organise by means other than public contracts”. It would seem to me and according to some legal opinion that has been sought that that would negate against the need for-----

The Deputy’s time is up.

-----a tendering process, in this instance.

Mr. John McKeon

We have, Deputy. This point was first raised by Senator Alice Mary Higgins a number of years ago when this was first mooted. Certainly, at that time, we raised all of those issues and comprehensive consideration was being given to it. Unfortunately, from the perspective of the local employment services and the job clubs, the advice is that it applies here. One of the issues is-----

Just to clarify, has that particular article been referred to the Attorney General for an opinion?

Mr. John McKeon

Absolutely, Deputy. The Chief State Solicitor’s office has looked at it and the Attorney General has concurred with its advice.

Is that on this specific article?

Mr. John McKeon

We are not contracting out these services for the first time. The provision the Deputy referred to is if the Department, for example, decided that it was going to contract out its payment function, which is an internally provided service. The local employment services and job clubs are already contracted out.

We are over time.

I have to say that is not the view. Can I just ask, a number of services are offered and provided to the Department-----

I will let the Deputy back in later for a second time.

Has it sought legal advice from the Chief State Solicitor’s office in respect of all of its schemes?

Deputy, we are over time.

Mr. John McKeon

These are the only schemes or contracted services and I would have to check that point, to be sure. I am not aware of other of our services that are not actually tendered for. The community employment services and Tús are, for example, in a different situation because in those situations the client is still paid directly by the Department, although it is channelled through the community employment, CE, supervisors and the sponsors. We have not, therefore, sought advice on those schemes and we do not intend to.

I thank Mr. McKeon.

I now call Deputy Dillon who has ten minutes.

I welcome our guests and compliment them on the fantastic service they given to the Government over the past 21 months. The Department has certainly delivered. I commend Mr. McKeon who outlined in his opening statement on the manner in which it has built two IT systems. This has shown the level of delivery within the system and other Government Departments - the HSE comes to mind - might learn from Mr. McKeon’s Department in respect of implementation of IT systems.

The area I want to focus on first is the Department's compliance and anti-fraud strategy. Would the Department consider returning responsibility for all PUP and jobseeker payments to the post office network? We have a crazy situation at present regarding the viability of the post office network, especially in rural Ireland. At a recent meeting, An Post was looking for clarity on this matter. Surely, if someone has to present in person as opposed to having money paid into his or her bank account this would, in theory, help to combat fraud. During the pandemic, we have heard stories of people being abroad and claiming PUP. We have also heard that moving payments back to the post office network is something the postmasters have called for. It is a move that I would support, particularly for many rural communities. I would like to hear Mr. McKeon's thoughts on this.

Mr. John McKeon

The Department's policy is that jobseeker payments are, in general, collected at post offices. We deviated from that during the pandemic, mainly for social distancing reasons, to give the jobseekers that option because people were being told to stay at home and not travel. Quite often, because jobseekers are paid on Thursday mornings, we see long queues outside the post offices. I have seen that outside my own local post office. We did not think that would make sense so we gave them the option of having their payment made directly to their bank accounts. We will review this as we come out of the pandemic, with a view, potentially, to reverting to payment in-person at the post office. I know that the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, is looking at that very closely. Whether we will be able to do it in respect of people who are currently on the payment and it is being paid into their bank accounts or for new applicants only is an open question. I can assure Deputies that these things are being examined at the moment. On foot of having responsibility for rural, community development and the islands, the Minister is particularly conscious of the role of post offices in rural communities. This is something that is being actively considered.

We have had an interdepartmental report on the viability of the post office network. I would ask that this matter be addressed in a speedy manner. I have reviewed the Department's documents in terms of its compliance. The strategy outlines four key pillars, namely, prevent, detect, deter and account. As PUP is reopening, will the Department now be asking applicants to present to Intreo offices to confirm their identity? Is that something the Department proposes to do over the next couple of weeks?

Mr. John McKeon

Certainly. We have already started that process, taking the learnings from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. As is normal with other jobseekers, we will ask people to present to their local Intreo centres to certify their ongoing entitlement. We did this remotely in 2020 and thus far in 2021. On the assumption that the situation with the pandemic is stabilising and, hopefully, improving, we will ask people to present at offices to sign and also to engage with job advisers, job coaches and so on.

At what stage did the Department start using Revenue's real-time information system in respect of the PUP scheme?

Mr. John McKeon

We were always using it to a certain extent but, as I explained earlier, our initial data-sharing agreement with the Revenue Commissioners was on a case-by-case basis, single individual by single individual. Since we got the second ICT system built and put the data sharing agreement in place we have been using it much more regularly. We have been using it much more regularly since the summer of this year, but at the moment all claims of PUP are being checked against the real-time look-up system and all claims that are in payment that are being checked against it on a weekly basis.

Am I correct that the Department intends to use it for non-pandemic related schemes into the future?

Mr. John McKeon

Yes. We will be looking at extending it. I explained some of the difficulties in terms of reconciling different payment frequencies in that some people are paid in advance, others are paid in arrears and so on. We are getting to grips with all of that now. One of the issues which people may not have noticed the Government has asked us to consider, which is in the pathways to work strategy, is that we move jobseeker payments onto a working family payment type model. Rather that having the casual system which we have at the moment, which some people will be familiar with is about days on work and days off work, we would use the Revenue real-time system to give us information on a person's earnings, which we would then top-up. A person with no earnings would get the full payment, a person with some earnings might get a reduced payment and so on. It is a bit like the working family payment, which, at the moment, is only available to families. That is something we are looking at, but it is not without its challenges. That would be a good way to use it, I think.

The Department of Social Protection is one of the largest Departments and has more than 6,000 staff. What percentage of its staff have been working remotely for the past 21 months and what impact has that had on service delivery?

Mr. John McKeon

At any point, approximately half of our staff are working remotely. Some of them would be working remotely on a full-time basis. In other offices, we have staff rotating in and out under the so-called hybrid or blended working model. At one level, it has not had an impact. As I said earlier, we have managed to protect and improve service performance on claim processing and so on. At another level, we would generally have hotlines for Deputies in all of our scheme areas. In one of our scheme areas, the performance has slipped a little because that has to be staffed physically in the office. As we have only a limited number of staff in the office, we have been prioritising customer calls. There have been some impacts, but I do not think they have been significant.

In terms of the Department's offices, is there regional spread throughout Ireland, does Mr. McKeon think remote working will become the norm and, if so, what impact might that have on the Department within the public sector?

Mr. John McKeon

We have been very positively disposed towards remote working. In effect, we have had a real-life trial for the past 21 months and it has shown that it works. At a Civil Service level, there is engagement between the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the unions about how we might structure that on a more formal basis. In terms of our staff locations, we are regionally structured in terms of the Intreo centres, which are grouped into eight regions. We also have the biggest distribution of staff of any Department in terms of our headquarters function. Our largest headquarters office is in Sligo, where there are 600 staff. There are approximately 450 staff in Longford, 200-plus in Carrick-on-Shannon and between Buncrana and Letterkenny, there are approximately 400 staff as well. Although our headquarters is formally in Áras Mhic Dhiarmada in Store Street, most of our headquarters staff are based outside of Dublin in the regions.

That is good to hear. I ask Mr. McKeon not to forget Mayo.

Mr. John McKeon

We have an office in Achill.

The Deputy has 30 seconds remaining.

Community employment is a major issue in rural communities. Mr. McKeon previously mentioned some difficulty in terms of referrals. What steps are being taken to address this? Community employment is an important scheme for many of the communities with which I have constant engagement. Is there a plan in place to mitigate the issue that has been highlighted to the Department in recent months?

Mr. John McKeon

The Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, and the Minister are actively engaged on that matter at the moment. There are some proposals under consideration. It is a policy issue. I do not want to say much more than that it is actively under consideration. I mentioned earlier that there is one thing that disappoints me a little, something we have to get to the heart of, that is, that the community employment schemes, compared with the Tús schemes, tend to reject more of the people we refer. That is something we need to understand. I am not saying that it is wrong, but we need to understand why it is the case.

I welcome the witnesses. I do not have a host of issues to raise but it is important to acknowledge that, since the outset of the pandemic, their Department has been under a heavier burden than most. Many people appreciate that work, as do I as a public representative. Suffice it to say, though, we have questions to ask. The gross expenditure from the Social Insurance Fund was in excess of €17.3 billion in 2020.

We will be looking at precarious circumstances in the year ahead thanks to Covid-19, which might have an impact on many employees across the country. Will Mr. McKeon guide us through the Department's work in trying to get ready financially for the challenges that we may have to overcome in the coming months? How is the Department planning to be in a position financially to deal with challenges that may arise from new variants and further lockdowns and restrictions? The cruel lesson we have learned over the past two or three months is that the Covid-19 pandemic is far from gone and we may face additional hurdles in the coming months.

Mr. John McKeon

I might ask my colleague, Mr. Lawler, to speak in a moment. He is head of our finance function and can probably give the committee more details than I.

In terms of our finances, we are a demand-led Department. People have entitlements to payments and services under the law if they experience certain contingencies, for example, unemployment, disability, etc. If extra financing is required that is not provided for in the Estimates, the Department will typically bring forward a Supplementary Estimate because it is not an option not to pay people.

The Deputy asked a question relating to Covid-19, its variants and so on. The Government takes decisions, as it did recently to reopen the PUP, based on the situation and the Department always stands ready to deliver on the Government's decisions. The Covid illness scheme is still in place. This recognises the impact of the current infection rate even if the impact of Covid is not as severe on people because of vaccines. For example, I am self-isolating at the moment and can still work. Last week, we received approximately 8,000 claims for the Covid illness payment. Once people are certified, they get the payment.

Regarding the general financial situation, does Mr. Lawler wish to discuss this year's Supplementary Estimate and the Estimate for next year?

I apologise for interrupting but I am a little time restricted and might revert to that question for a reply during the additional round of questions.

My next question is on the matter of suspected fraud. We are aware from the details provided to us that this accounted for approximately €18 million in 2019. The pandemic has naturally increased the amount of support that people have needed and it was correct for the Government to provide as many supports as possible. In terms of fraud over the past 18 months, what details is Mr. McKeon able to provide us regarding people who were in receipt of financial support from the Department when they should not have been? An issue has been flagged with me by people a number of times and it would be no harm for Mr. McKeon to put the matter to bed today. It has to do with people leaving the country who were in receipt of the PUP and other payments. Has Mr. McKeon detailed information on this matter? It would be no harm to get an insight into it. We have all heard of cases of people who were in receipt of payments when they should not have been. I would like some clarity on the position.

Mr. John McKeon

The Deputy referred to the level of fraud. Last year, the Department reported €99 million in overpayments, of which approximately €20 million related to fraud. To put that in context, it was a year with in or around €30 billion in payments. In the year to date, we are estimating that there has been €102 million in overpayments, of which €16 million relates to fraud. I do not want to overstate the level of fraud. So far, we have raised debts of between €20 million and €25 million in terms of the PUP and have recovered €10 million to €11 million of that. We have yet to implement some of the measures that we indicated we would and that the Comptroller and Auditor General referred to whereby we would review all of the claims and payments and try to match instances where people were working while also claiming PUP. Many of those instances would be genuine and not fraudulent. One of the issues that we as a Department need to face is that, under the law, people are meant to sign off a payment the first day they return to work. Often, though, they do not get their first pay cheques for four weeks. In the past, they may have sought the supplementary welfare allowance for that period. In such situations where there is a detected level of fraud because people are working and claiming, we must net off the amount they would have got from the supplementary welfare payment. This is something to be aware of.

I am afraid that we do not have figures on the international dimension. To a certain extent, it is a case of us not knowing what we do not know. We are not aware of a large amount of it, although it has undoubtedly happened. We took some control measures last year that resulted in approximately 9,000 claims – Mr. Conlon might correct me on that if I am wrong – being stopped where we identified that people were abroad. We have some data analytics. I do not want to describe them because I do not want to provide a rogue’s charter, but in many cases we have ways and means of detecting whether a payment is going abroad.

I am sorry to interrupt but I do not have the luxury of time. Mr. McKeon referred to 9,000 cases. Was there a strong mixture of multiple reasons for stopping those claims? I suppose there were some people moving to other jurisdictions to live or did it have more to do with holidays? Will Mr. McKeon give us an insight into the figure of 9,000 cases?

Mr. John McKeon

I will revert with a written note because I am working from home and do not have all of my papers in front of me. I might reserve the right to correct myself with a written note, if that is okay.

That is fine. Mr. McKeon might be able to clarify the other issues as well.

Mr. John McKeon

From recollection, most of those cases involved people leaving the State. They were not on holidays. In many cases, they had been working in the State and then decided to return to their home countries for the period of the pandemic.

In full receipt of the PUP.

Mr. John McKeon

They sought to be but we detected it.

The 9,000 were not all in receipt of the payment. Some were seeking it but were ineligible.

Mr. John McKeon

Or we caught them fairly quickly after they got their payments.

That is interesting. We in politics have a habit of bashing civil servants on many issues but it has to be acknowledged that the Department has done a considerable amount of work to help many people who were badly in need during the pandemic. It has not been easy and there were many teething issues as well as problems that we still have to overcome. Generally speaking, the Department has had to undertake a major task. The increase in its budget has been eye-watering but that was a necessary response to the situation in which we found ourselves.

Mr. McKeon might provide me with a detailed note on the cases of fraud. It would be no harm for me to have a look at the issue because it has been raised with me multiple times and having transparency would be important.

I will address my remarks to Mr. McKeon. He is not getting to share the burden with the other witnesses even though doing so would have been beneficial this morning.

I wish to discuss the reply about energy use. Mr. McKeon acknowledged an increase in expenditure on energy which was reflected in the reply to the parliamentary question I tabled. I want to go through some of the reasons that accounted for it. Mr. McKeon said there was a significant increase in gas and electricity prices. The cost increased between 2019 and 2021. However, 2020 was quite different in that prices plummeted in that year. While that might be the case in 2021, there was a fluctuation but some of that fluctuation was also downwards. I accept some of the points Mr. McKeon made about shift working, the extra accommodation the Department required and some of the other reasons. He also stated that the Department met the target reduction between 2009 and 2020, which I acknowledge.

Mr. McKeon stated:

Even though 50% of staff worked onsite, remote access was required to facilitate the remaining staff working off site. For security and other reasons, a remote access protocol was used which required desktop PCs to be maintained in a powered on position (remote PCs were simply used as a screen rather than having access to data and systems directly). The Department is currently rolling out secure laptops to staff to eliminate this requirement.

Would that be a clear demonstration of a risk or a weakness? I know that blended working was very much accelerated by the arrival of Covid. The fact that that is being done now, would that have been on the risk register, for example? We saw the cyberattack on the HSE in 2021.

Mr. John McKeon

We were concerned when we were sending staff home with PCs and other devices that we did not want the capability of local copies of data in people's homes. So, the protocol we put in place was a particular form of remote access where all the data are still in the Department's premises and, as the Deputy described it, the local PC in the person's home is just literally a screen. No data transfer between the machine in the office and the machine at home. That was the protocol we set up. We have since got the secure laptops which will do away with the need to keep the-----

How many secure laptops are required? How many have been rolled out to date?

Mr. John McKeon

We have bought 4,000.

Was that the number required?

Mr. John McKeon

That is the number required, yes.

Are they in place now or are they being distributed on an incremental basis?

Mr. John McKeon

They are mainly in place. There are still some to be distributed. The Department takes information security incredibly seriously. I think we were probably the first Department to get information security, cybersecurity, accreditation from the ISO. We had a number of very serious cyberattacks during the year which we successfully repelled. They did not make the news because we take it so seriously. That was the approach we took. The approach of using that remote access protocol was, to use one of the terms of the moment, an abundance of caution. The risk was actually probably very low in truth, but we do not tolerate, to the extent we can, any risk around access to data.

I want to get in some other questions. The Department will no longer have a requirement to have desktops powered on.

Mr. John McKeon

No.

Therefore, that will not be continuing.

I have two other questions. Mr. McKeon spoke about the services that are already contracted out - Tús, JobBridge and Job Clubs I believe. At previous meetings of the Committee of Public Accounts I have outlined to Mr. McKeon my unhappiness with some of the offerings regarding JobBridge. I know that is at an end or coming to an end. It does not reassure me that because they have been contracted out in the past, we will do it again in terms of the interaction claimants and people who are on welfare have. I have direct experience with my own local employment service, which I have found very good and pretty much centred on the individual. I have seen people ending up in work which is what we all want to achieve as a consequence of that kind of one-to-one interaction. I share Deputy McAuliffe's concerns about that local dimension being lost with what is happening. There is a potential loss of some of the practices that have built up over the years. To what extent has that aspect been looked at? I know there have been reports, including the Indecon report.

Mr. John McKeon

What we are trying to do with the regional employment services, as we call it now, is actually to secure and sustain the local community and social linkages. That is what we are trying to do. I know people are concerned about it. Any process of change, particularly when people have been in situ for 25 years, is always unsettling. What we are trying to do is secure exactly what the Deputy mentioned in terms of that local and community linkage. I am optimistic that we will do so. I point to the experience of the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, where very similar concerns were expressed in 2014. We have shown what can be done. I think the experience in the first phase in Donegal, Sligo and Leitrim shows it can be done. We are taking the learnings on board.

The Deputy mentioned JobBridge; I think she meant JobPath.

Yes, JobPath, sorry.

Mr. John McKeon

I know we have had the conversation about JobPath before and we will probably never agree on this. My job is to be objective and to look at the data. I would have to say that our customer research, which is independent, gives very good results for JobPath. An interesting report was done by Michael McGann of Maynooth University of a street level bureaucrat view. I think it was funded by the OECD or the European Commission. What he found was that there are definite differences in terms of attitude and values between JobPath and local employment services, but they are not very significant. In fact, some of them might be in the reverse direction from what one might expect. While I do not want to put words in his mouth, I think the overall conclusion, if I remember, was that it has not resulted in the type of experience that people thought it might, based on, for example, the experience in the UK. I say to the Deputy that she should have a look at the data and have a look at the results. I think it has been a reasonably good service. We are changing it. There will be a national employment service as well as the regional, which we will tender out. Obviously, the JobPath providers might or might not tender for that and they might or might not succeed if they do, but that is fine.

As Mr. McKeon said, we will agree to disagree on some of this. I have no doubt that some people are satisfied, but the level of dissatisfaction was something that, as a public representative, I could not ignore. That is why I continue to raise it.

I wish to ask about the scope section of the Department of Social Protection and about the possibility of bogus self-employment. Does the scope section look at an individual or a sector? Does it match an individual with a sector? I know Deputy Munster raised this earlier. I find it very difficult to join the dots on exactly who makes the decision or where the decision is made about who is employed and who is self-employed. Revenue is telling us one thing and Mr. McKeon is telling us something different. I do not know where the decision is actually made.

Mr. John McKeon

As I mentioned in my opening remarks and again to Deputy Munster, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection, Rural and Community Development and the Islands did a very comprehensive report which was published in June. I recommend that people read it. I do not agree with everything in the report, but it is a very good and comprehensive report. It dealt with many of the points the Deputy raised.

It points out, as I pointed out earlier, that under law, the Department makes decisions about employment status for social insurance purposes. We make those decisions independently of Revenue. Revenue makes decisions in respect of tax, which are made independently of us. The Workplace Relations Commission makes decisions in respect of employment rights, which are also made independently. The report from the other committee recommended that it should be centralised in one body, which would be the Workplace Relations Commission. I think it is not a bad recommendation and we probably need to look at whether it should be centralised in one area.

The Deputy asked about whether we would look at individuals or status. I am aware that this is disputed. From my experience, direct inquiries and direct discussions with people in the Department, we make decisions based on individuals. Individuals are assessed for social insurance purposes based on the circumstances of their particular case. We use criteria which are set out in the code of conduct for the determination of employment status, which we developed jointly with Ibec, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, Revenue, the Workplace Relations Commission and the Labour Court in the early 2000s. That was recently updated. We use the five criteria in that code of conduct to make the assessment. Each assessment is individual.

We have gone way over time.

It seems extraordinary that individuals are all assessed and the outcome is the same for the whole sector.

I thank the Deputy.

Maybe the criteria that Mr. McKeon is talking about determine that but that seems extraordinary if it is done on an individual basis.

Mr. John McKeon

I do not think it is the case that everybody in the sector is determined the same way. I know people say that but I have yet to see evidence that that is the case.

If members wish to speak a second time, they should indicate. I am mindful that we are running over time. I thank Mr. McKeon for attending and wish him a speedy recovery.

What areas would the social protection investigation at RTÉ cover?

Mr. John McKeon

I cannot comment on a particular investigation or case that is ongoing. There are investigations under way, conducted by our employment status investigation unit. It is a unit that we set up specifically to take a proactive view rather than waiting for people to come to us with an inquiry. Where we have become aware of concerns about a particular sector or circumstances, we send our employment status investigations unit to look at it. It would look at workers who may currently be on a contract for service when they could be deemed to be on a contract of service. It would try to determine which they fit in, whether they are self-employed or employed, and reach determinations on that.

How many workers would be included in that investigation?

Mr. John McKeon

I do not want to talk about a specific case. As the Chairman knows, I cannot. He referred to a case. Under the guidance of the committee itself, I cannot talk about particular cases. Our employment status investigations unit has looked at 500 different employers and about 4,000 employment cases with those employers.

Will Mr. McKeon repeat that figure, please?

Mr. John McKeon

It has looked at 500 different employers.

I thank Mr. McKeon. Where it is found that workers were wrongly classified, the implication is that they would not have had the correct employer's PRSI paid for up to 20 years. In that case, is it the Department's position that those workers should retrospectively have those proper PRSI credits, class A credits, for example, reinstated?

Mr. John McKeon

That is the policy. In every case where we determine that a worker should have been properly classified as employed rather than self-employed, the worker will automatically get the class A contributions, and we will separately pursue the employer to recover the underpaid employer contributions.

What about the loss to the Exchequer from the PRSI contribution? Would the employer be compelled, in all cases, to make good that loss to the Exchequer?

Mr. John McKeon

That is the approach that we would take. We would raise and pursue it. The circumstances of each case would determine how fast we would pursue it. I do not think this will arise in a self-employment status case but, for example, if an employer avails of a redundancy and insolvency scheme because of an inability to pay redundancy, we will raise a debt for the employer, but we are cautious about the speed with which we pursue that debt. If an employer is letting go ten people out of 20 and cannot afford to pay the redundancy debt, we will raise the debt, but pursuing the debt means it will have to lay off the second ten people, which is not in anyone's interests. We take those considerations into account.

It is acknowledged that Revenue carried out an investigation into RTÉ. Did the Department of Social Protection have a role in that investigation?

Mr. John McKeon

No. As I said, I do not want to talk about any particular case, but we are doing our own investigation.

I will turn to local employment services for a moment. The Department says that it has advice from the Attorney General. Deputy Carthy pursued this, and the matter of the advice having to be contracted out. Will the midlands and Laois and Offaly be grouped together as one or will another county be brought in with them? Will it be contracted out on a two or three county basis?

Mr. John McKeon

The lots have not been finalised yet. We held a briefing a couple of weeks ago based on the outcome of the first phase and we are considering that feedback. I cannot answer the Chair definitively. As he is aware, the midlands region was in the first phase. I cannot answer that but the intention is that there will be more lots than the consultants recommended. I emphasise that I have spoken personally with a number of different local employment service and jobs club providers, and I encourage them to collaborate. We saw the outcome of successful collaborations in the first phase.

The sound was not great when Mr. McKeon said it will be done on a larger scale. To clarify, is he saying that it will include two or three counties? Will it be Laois, Offaly, and somewhere else?

Mr. John McKeon

It will depend. In Dublin, for example, there is more than one lot. In other counties, the entire county might be a lot, and in some cases, counties will be combined.

There is other legal advice on this. I know that Mr. McKeon is probably aware of this and has probably had it quoted to him over the past few weeks. There is a legal opinion that states that in layman's terms, if the contract was in place before 2014 and is not altered substantially, there is nothing to stop the Department from continuing with that. Many of these services have been in place for a decade or two and have not changed substantially. What would Mr. McKeon say to that?

Mr. John McKeon

We are aware of that and the issues have been raised, but the advice we have remains the same. From one perspective, this would be seen as unfortunate. There is no "get out of jail" card on that basis. The contracts we give are new contracts each year. They are not contracts of indefinite duration. They have termination clauses so they can be terminated with three months' notice by either party. We have had cases where local employment service providers have terminated contracts themselves. We have had cases where there have been governance issues and they have had to terminate contracts as a result. Leaving aside the legal issue, which makes it absolutely unavoidable, there are also governance concerns about simply rolling things on and on. There have been cases with significant governance issues, even involving Garda investigations, which some members may be aware of. We have to take the issue of governance and proper procurement very seriously.

I do not think many would argue regarding governance and not having monitoring of contracts.

Does Mr. McKeon accept that contracts for an indefinite period that were in place prior to the 2014 directive coming into play, could continue?

Mr. John McKeon

As I said, we have raised that issue with the Office of the Attorney General. I give credit to Senator Higgins, as she was the first person to raise it. All of this has been looked at before numerous times and the advice remains consistent.

There is other advice and legal opinion.

Mr. John McKeon

That is true. We all know the old saying about doctors differing. Legal advisers can always find a way to give different opinions. We must follow the advice of the Chief State Solicitor's office and the Attorney General.

Has Mr. McKeon looked at other European countries to see if they have followed this to the letter?

Mr. John McKeon

In some ways, it is immaterial whether they have or not, because the law is binding on us. Saying that somebody else is getting away with it does not mean that we should try to get away with it. That is not how proper government works. In nearly every other European country that I am aware of, these services are contracted out through competitive processes. I cannot say that is the case for every European country, but it is the case in nearly every other European country I am aware of.

We had Revenue in last week on bogus self-employment and the courier deal. It said it was the fault of the Department of Social Protection because of the test cases and the poor criteria set out. The Department of Social Protection said there were no test cases, then there were test cases. A letter in the Department's correspondence to the Committee of Public Accounts from Mr. McKeon's predecessor states that test cases were selected for detailed investigation. This process resulted in a decision by the appeals officer of the social welfare appeals office on 12 June 1995, who decided that a courier was self-employed if he provided his own vehicle and equipment, was responsible for all expenses, including tax and insurance and payment was made on the basis of rate per job plus mileage and allowance. It went on to say that the appeal officer's decision established the criteria in relation to the employment status of couriers that has since been generally accepted throughout the industry and also by the Office of the Revenue Commissioners. That coincides with what the Revenue Commissioners told us last week, that it was a single precedent set by the Department of Social Protection that led to all couriers being deemed to be self-employed. As a member of the Committee of Public Accounts I am deeply unsatisfied with the responses from both bodies. The only step we can take now is to commission an independent investigation into the background to this deal. I am sure the Secretary General of the Department would support that. Would his Department agree to commission an independent investigation from someone outside the State? I am sure he would support that in the interests of transparency and to clear all this up.

Mr. John McKeon

Is that directed to me or to the Chair?

Yes, to Mr. McKeon. He is the Secretary General.

Mr. John McKeon

I would make two points in response to the Deputy. First, her sister committee, the Joint Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands has published a very comprehensive report on this.

I am sorry to interrupt Mr. McKeon, but on a point of clarity, that report was a general scope report, it did not cover the courier deal.

Mr. John McKeon

I am sorry, but there was no courier deal. I am not aware of the correspondence to which Deputy Munster referred from 1995. If she reads it carefully---

It was from 2000.

Mr. John McKeon

With respect, that is not at all inconsistent. What I said previously is that a review was done to identify the criteria which were then subsequently agreed in the code of practice with ICTU, IBEC and others, which would be applied to each case. I am not familiar with the letter from 1995, which I believe is the date Deputy Munster gave.

No, the letter was sent to the Committee of Public Accounts in 2000 by Mr. McKeon's predecessor.

Mr. John McKeon

Yes, in 2000, 21 years ago. As I understand from Deputy Munster's reading of the letter, the decision in the Department of Social Protection established the criteria by which cases would be judged. It did not establish that everybody in the sector would fall into those categories. I can tell the Deputy definitively-----

That is not what Revenue said to us last week. I am sorry but time is of the essence. I asked if Mr. McKeon would support an independent investigation.

Mr. John McKeon

I do not think it is necessary.

Let us be honest, whether Mr. McKeon recognises it or not, this deal which classified couriers in this State as self-employed, has lost the State millions. It has screwed over thousands of workers. Is Mr. McKeon saying to the Committee of Public Accounts that he will not support the commissioning of an independent investigation by someone outside the State to investigate all of these decisions that cost the State millions and screwed over thousands of workers? It was said earlier that there were no test cases, then there were test cases, and that Revenue says the Department is responsible for setting the criteria. I quoted several people confirming that there were test cases.

Mr. John McKeon

Deputy Munster has asked me the question and if I could please answer, I will do so.

Is Mr. McKeon not going to support an independent investigation?

Mr. John McKeon

I think I have answered Deputy Munster fairly. I have made it very clear-----

Just for the record, is Mr. McKeon not in favour-----

Mr. John McKeon

Could Deputy Munster let me answer the question?

The question is very clear. It requires a "Yes" or "No" response.

Deputy Munster-----

Mr. John McKeon

It is not a "Yes" or "No" response.

Mr. McKeon is here to answer questions. It is not his show.

Deputy Munster and Mr. McKeon should stop talking over each other.

Could Deputy Munster stop talking over the witness?

Will Mr. McKeon support the commissioning of an independent investigation by someone outside the State to investigate the millions lost to this State and the screwing over of thousands of workers as a result of the criteria set out, which Revenue backed up, on the basis of the test case that the Department carried out?

Deputy Munster has asked the question.

Will Mr. McKeon support an independent investigation into this matter? Yes or no.

Could Deputy Munster stop talking over the witness and allow him to answer the question? It is getting lost in the noise.

Could Mr. McKeon make a brief reply? Some of us did not catch what he said earlier.

Mr. John McKeon

Certainly Chair. I do not think there is a "Yes" or "No" answer to a question that lasts five minutes.

Mr. John McKeon

If I may say so, with respect, in trying to get a closed answer, I think the Deputy is being somewhat disingenuous. I gave the answer previously.

With respect, I think Mr. McKeon is being disingenuous.

Mr. John McKeon

I can tell Deputy Munster definitely that the way the Department operates in determining employment status is to determine each case on its own merits, using criteria which are clearly set out in the code of conduct for the determination of employment status, which was developed in the noughties and agreed by IBEC and ICTU. We apply those criteria to each case on its individual merits. We do not and have not determined that all employees of a particular sector are one status or another. On that basis, I do not agree with the Deputy's proposition and I do not think there is a need for an investigation.

That is a "No" to an independent investigation.

Mr. John McKeon

Having said that, if the Committee of Public Accounts wants to recommend one, that is entirely within the gift of the Committee of Public Accounts.

On the retrospective alteration where people have been misclassified in terms of their contributions, is there a statute of limitations on that in the same way as there is with Revenue? For example, if somebody was on an S stamp seven years ago and he or she should have been on an A stamp.

Mr. John McKeon

No, there is not. We can go right back.

I thank Mr. McKeon for answering that.

He stated that there is an annual contract with the local employment services, not a contract of indefinite duration. How does that align with employment law? Once a person is two years and nine months on a temporary contract, he or she is entitled to a permanent contract. How can a local employment service stay within the law for some of its employees with that kind of arrangement? Will that be the kind of arrangement if the service is contracted out?

Mr. John McKeon

In answer to the last part of the question, the tender, as we are proposing it, is for a three-year contract with an extension of up to two years. It is three years or potentially five years. At that point it would have to be tendered again. It will not be in any way an indefinite duration. There is a difference, as the Deputy is aware, between contract law and employment law. There are more protections in employment law. That would explain the difference. Those issues do not arise in contract law.

Given that Departments are supposed to lead by example, is it not a poor example that people are being employed on an annual basis, for 25 years potentially, without ever having any degree of certainty? Now we are seeing that the whole service is likely to be contracted out. There is a high degree of unfairness to the people within that system.

Mr. John McKeon

To the extent that we are now looking at a three- to five-year term, that would actually improve the situation.

Only if they get contract.

Mr. John McKeon

There is a good chance. As I say, I strongly encourage them to tender and to work together collaboratively to do so. It will provide greater security and greater flexibility for the service providers who are successful. It will entail far less bureaucracy as well. We tend to talk about the disadvantages in this, but there are significant benefits for security of tenure, for greater flexibility, for guaranteed levels of income and referrals and for an integrated service for the client. The client, instead of having an Intreo service to go to, can go to a local employment service. In between, they might go to a job club. By merging the two of those, there will be an integrated service. It puts the service on a sound legal footing with better governance. They are all the positives. I do not think we should lose sight of those. As I said before, I have no doubt that people are unsettled. Any process of change will cause people to feel unsettled. I encourage them to look at the positives in this and to see what Donegal and Sligo-Leitrim have done. It can be done.

I have a brief question about the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, as well as on the various media reports we have seen over recent months that there may have been a capacity for high levels of fraudulent claims or inaccurate claims. Could Mr. McKeon briefly outline the measures his Department employed to provide reassurance in those areas and to recoup any money that was incorrectly paid?

Mr. John McKeon

I covered some of this earlier on. In the first instance, we had to introduce the scheme quickly. We had to work on the presumption of honesty. That created the risk of extra payments. I formally recorded and communicated that fact to the Minister and to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I copied that to the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General at the time. However, it was decided to accept that risk, given the greater good of supporting people during what was an unprecedented time. At this point, all payments of the pandemic unemployment payment are checked against the Revenue Commissioners, both at claim stage and during an ongoing payment stage. Throughout the past year and bit, or 21 months, we have undertaken a number of control activities. Our special investigations unit has undertaken a number of control reviews. We have run certification programmes and projects. We have had the employer reporting line and we have had recertification. As a consequence of those checks, we stopped approximately 140,000 claims in payment. On the take on checks, we received approximately 1.8 million claims and we only paid 1.3 million claims. To give people reassurance, there was already a check there. On the next steps, as I said, our staff are currently supporting this system and the scheme. They will be diverted to review all claims that were paid to see if there were any overlaps between payment and employment, particularly on the self-employment side. This will happen over the coming year to raise any over-payments that are necessary to raise and to recover those payments.

I will go back to the issue of misclassification of workers and the test case issue and whether there was a test case or not. Correspondence from the Secretary General of the Department in 2000 shows that there was a test case. In that correspondence, the Secretary General of the Department of Social Welfare, as it was then called in 2000, said that in order to resolve the matter, a number of representative test cases were selected in 1993 and 1994 for detailed investigation and that the process resulted in a decision by an appeals officer of the social welfare appeals office on 12 June 1996, who decided that a courier was self-employed. He went on to outline three grounds. The chairperson of the Revenue Commissioners in August of the same year stated, “I enclose copies of our letters of 7 March 1997 and 3 April 1997 to Messers K. Ryan and company". They represented courier firms at the discussions in the Gresham Hotel. The letters outlined the agreement reached for tax purposes. They state that for the purpose of insurability under social welfare law a motorcycle courier was found to be self-employed by the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs tribunal some years ago and that the decision was not challenged further through the High Court on a point of law and consequently would stand for social insurance purposes.

A number of factors were set out. The Chief State Solicitor at the time, Mr. Mark Connaughton, said the classification, or certain issues that would identify somebody as being self-employed "cannot of itself justify a conclusion that the claimant [the courier in this case] is in business on his own account".

In 2021, the current code of practice states that “the provision of tools or equipment will not have a significant bearing on reaching a conclusion about which employment status is appropriate”. That is a change. That is the reason I read out the 2021 code of practice. I do not want to hammer home the point or anything, but it is clear in the number of direct quotations and correspondence that we have seen to date, that a deal was done to classify couriers as a group. In the documents even for this meeting today, it is clear that the Department moved away from that practice approximately three or four years ago. If I recall correctly, last year there were only three companies using that. Now there are two companies using that, according to correspondence from the Department. Is it correct that there has been a move away from that?

Mr. John McKeon

None of that, in terms of interpretation of it, is reflective of the practice. The Chair is quoting correspondence to me dating back 21 years, from a time when I was not even in the Department. That was a long time ago. For as long as I have been in the Department, which is since 2010, a person got their social insurance status, as required by law, based on the circumstances of their particular case, and I have been assured by my predecessors that that has always been the practice.

The Chair's first quote identified a number of criteria. As I said, part of the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness in the early noughties resulted in the code of conduct for determination of employment and self-employment status. That identified five criteria. If memory serves me well, the line about ownership of tools and so on was in that code of conduct. I am not 100% certain of that but I am pretty sure it was. It is, therefore, not a move. I am not aware of any deal that people are talking about. If somebody could show me the deal, I would be interested to see it. I am not aware of any deal. People use the language of a deal.

I do not know whether they think we are trying to do something to help courier companies at the expense of courier staff. That is simply not the case. That is not the ethos or values of the Department. It simply is not the case. There is no reason why we would ever do that. We try to determine cases based on the facts put before us.

The facts are that there are direct quotations from senior officials, including the head of Revenue and Mr. McKeon’s predecessor in the Department of Social Protection, that there was a deal in operation and that, for the 20-year period, many workers in that sector may have been misclassified, or to use the term “bogus self-employment”, may have been employed as bogus employees. The concern is that this practice would then be taken up in other sectors, such as construction. I do not want that to take up this morning. The point here is that it is clear from the documentation we have seen in the past year that there was a deal in operation and that it did operate. It was scaled down in more recent years to the point where it is nearly non-existent now but, for a 20-year period, it did operate in a way that meant there would have been workers misclassified under that deal. We know from the courier sector that not everybody wanted to be categorised as self-employed. Some people who were doing it did not even know they were self-employed.

There are two problems. One is the potential loss to the State of the revenue that needs to go into the Social Insurance Fund. The second is the loss to the workers, particularly for pension entitlements and other entitlements. That is the point. I do not want to labour it today.

Mr. John McKeon

If there are workers like that, they can still come to the Department and they can still look today for the determination of their status. We will deal with it now. We will look back at the circumstances that pertained and we will assess it now. That is always open to workers. We apply the criteria, as I said. I am not aware of any deal. I am assured there was no deal. Even the quote the Chairman gave from the Revenue Commissioners, and I cannot speak for the Revenue Commissioners, referred to one case of one individual.

It was one case that was used subsequently to reclassify.

Mr. John McKeon

I do not think it went on to say that. I am not familiar with the correspondence the Chairman is speaking to in regard to Revenue and I am sure the head of Revenue will speak for it. The situation is that people get a determination and have always done based on the circumstances of their own case. There are standard criteria that are applied. There were cases, if the Chairman wants to call them test cases, that were used to establish those criteria but not to determine the outcome of the application of those criteria. I think that is where the confusion arises. If any worker wants to come to the Department now and have us look at their employment status at whatever time, they can do so.

The workers in these sectors - in the gig economy or whatever we like to call it - if they are employed on a self-employment basis, have an imbalance of power between themselves and the employer and they are in a very weak position. If they say “Boo”, there is somebody else waiting to take their position. There is a vulnerability there for workers. I make the point that the Department needs to be aware of that in terms of the classification. It is very difficult for a worker who is a cycle courier or a motorcycle courier to take a case. Their employer will straightaway, in most cases, move to make life difficult for them. I ask the Department to be aware of that.

Mr. John McKeon

I acknowledge that. I would encourage the committee members to look at the report from the Joint Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands. The issue the Chairman is talking about is not an issue for the Department; it is an issue for the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. It is about anti-victimisation or anti-penalisation provisions, on which there was some commentary. As I said, there was a suggestion that, in fact, many of those issues are proper to the WRC. We would be aware of those issues but our interest is solely in the social insurance classification.

Thank you. To conclude, I thank the witnesses for attending. As I said, I wish Mr. McKeon a speedy recovery. I thank the staff of the Department for the work they were involved in to prepare for the meeting and also for their work over the past two years. They have had a fairly hectic two years and the staff stepped up to the mark and carried a huge burden, and I want to acknowledge that. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, and his staff for attending and for assisting today's meeting.

Is it agreed to request the clerk to seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions from today's meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statement and the briefings provided for today's meeting? Agreed.

I will suspend the meeting until 1.30 p.m., when the committee will resume to consider correspondence and any other business of the committee.

The witnesses withdrew.
Sitting suspended at 12.52 p.m. and resumed at 1.30 p.m.
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