Committee on Housing and Homelessness díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 26 Apr 2016

Interim Report of Committee

Chairman

The order establishing this committee requires it to provide an interim report to the Dáil outlining its proposed work schedule for consideration by the Dáil on 28 April. As discussed at our meeting of 20 April, a draft copy of the interim report was circulated to members last Friday and comments were requested to be submitted by 12.30 p.m. yesterday. Ten key issues have emerged which people seem to be happy to pursue. The real issue is who members feel should be our key witnesses.

This afternoon we will meet members of the City and County Managers Association. On Thursday morning, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government will attend the morning session and representatives of the Housing Agency and the Irish Council for Social Housing will attend in the afternoon. That is the extent of the invitations issued to date. The rest will emerge from the piece of work we will now do.

Working through the issues presented, the first relates to the Government strategy for housing and homelessness and, as I said, the Minister will be in attendance on Wednesday. We are due to work over a six-week period so we need to manage the number of witnesses to be effective in what we are doing and prioritise who we want to attend in the different categories.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Does the Chairman propose to go through each of the headings and seek suggestions at this point?

Chairman

I was planning to seek suggestions and agree them as we go rather than coming back to items. We are dealing with the first item, which is the Government's strategy for housing and homelessness. We have agreed to discuss this with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly, on Thursday morning.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I wish to suggest a couple of obvious names. The first is Dr. Eoin O'Sullivan from Trinity College, one of the country's leading academic experts on homelessness. He would be a good witness to invite as he has probably done the most up-to-date research on the causes of homelessness, funding models and so forth. Another is Mr. Cathal Morgan, the head of the homeless agency which co-ordinates the services in the four Dublin local authorities. There is also a need to invite some of the NGOs but one of the difficulties is that there is quite a large number of homeless service providers in the NGO sector. Rather than us cherry-picking and inviting one organisation and upsetting another, there are some existing forums of those organisations which could be invited. There is, for example, the homelessness forum in Dublin, which represents all of the NGO service providers. There are similar forums in Cork and Limerick, which I understand cover both the county and the city areas. There used to be such a forum in the south east but I am not sure if it is still functioning. I am not suggesting that we invite all four but we did say that we wanted to get urban, rural and outside of Dublin perspectives. Perhaps a number of representatives from those forums could be invited. That would be preferable to inviting Focus Ireland or the Simon Community on its own and then upsetting Novas Initiatives, Sophia and so forth. There is also an argument for inviting one of the heads of homeless services from one of the councils that is under real strain, separate to the Dublin Region Homeless Executive, as well as somebody from the Department responsible for homelessness. I know that is quite a long list but-----

Chairman

The Deputy has covered a number of topics in one go and we will return to them later.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

That is all under the homelessness heading.

Chairman

Yes, but I have not reached item No. 6, which is homelessness. We are still on item No. 1, the Government strategy for housing. The Minister has been invited. Is the committee agreed that he is the correct person in that regard?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Agreed.

Chairman

That is agreed. The second issue is social housing. Deputy Durkan mentioned the local authorities and this is the point at which we can focus on some of the issues raised previously.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The first issue that needs to be determined is the extent to which the local authorities are to be relied upon to provide social housing in the future. We moved away from that over the past ten or 15 years which was a big mistake. We have the problems we have now because the requirement to provide social housing was taken away from the local authorities. It is absolutely imperative that we ensure that the local authorities are fully aware of the responsibility that should fall to them in the provision of local authority or social housing. They are in the best position to provide such housing and they have the wherewithal to do it. They have at their fingertips all of the State-owned lands that are available in their respective areas as well as all of the housing developments. They also have available to them, arising from last year's budget, the resources to acquire and build houses and to introduce modular housing. We need to know how quickly they can put in place the necessary measures to address the requirements in their respective administrative areas.

Chairman

On potential witnesses for the subject of social housing, Deputy Ryan.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

On that issue, if there are barriers being experienced by the local authorities in terms of delivering what is required, they need to tell us about them. The witnesses coming before us this afternoon could certainly be linked with this topic.

Chairman

The committee has agreed that the witnesses appearing this afternoon will be asked to collate the relevant information from each local authority in respect of the issues identified by Deputy Durkan and submit it to us. That information will come back to the committee as correspondence from each local authority.

The issue we are dealing with now is social housing and the witnesses we might invite to speak on it, separate to those we will be meeting this afternoon. Are there additional witnesses that committee members would like to call?

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

To follow up on that point, I read the opening statement which was circulated from the managers who are coming in this afternoon. The information provided therein is all bunched together so we do not have a sense of the situation in each of the particular areas. It is important that we address that.

Chairman

Yes. Deputy Durkan's suggestion will hopefully address that.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

Given that they are coming in this afternoon, it is a pity they cannot bring that information with them.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Yes.

Deputy Mary Butler

The fact that the county and city managers are coming in this afternoon is very important.

They are, first and foremost, providing most of the social housing in the country. We need to ask them about the turnover advice. Sometimes they are very slow with the purchase of private houses in council estates. In many instances, council estates have been built for 20 or 30 years where people have purchased their own homes and then sold them on. It is difficult to get the council to repurchase one of their own houses, especially in the south-east. The problem is that one can turn over a house there for €95,000 or €100,000 but one certainly would not build a house for that price.

We should also examine adding extensions to council houses because a mother and children might require a three-bedroom facility. The option of adding on an extra bedroom would certainly help. We should also seriously examine the HAP scheme, which is causing huge problems everywhere.

Chairman

I would remind members at this stage that we are not discussing the issue as such. I am not disagreeing with the points that members are raising but we are trying to identify specifically what actions we can take as a committee. The first specific action we have dealt with today was Deputy Durkan's point. However, in order to address exactly the points that members are making, including those on social housing, we must determine who the committee feels would be best placed to answer those issues. I now call Deputy Canney.

Deputy Seán Canney

I was going to say exactly what the Chairman said - that we need to decide who we are bringing in and who will accompany them. I will have a lot of questions this afternoon for Mr. Eugene Cummins and his colleagues. This morning, we should decide to set out a structure and ask the questions this afternoon. If we do not do so, we will end up talking for six weeks. We should focus on what we are doing.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

Yes.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I have some suggestions. We should invite the head of the Irish Council for Social Housing because they obviously represent all the voluntary housing providers in the social sector.

Chairman

To be of assistance, representatives of the Irish Council for Social Housing will be our witnesses on Thursday afternoon.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Okay. I have a couple of other suggestions. If we have the South Dublin and Dublin city managers in today, we could also invite a couple of other managers and heads of housing from other local authorities. Limerick City Council would be interesting because they piloted HAP first, so it would be good to hear from the head of housing there. We could also include some of the rural counties which have particular homelessness problems. It would therefore be useful to invite two, three or four managers from other local authorities, in addition to the ones we have today, as well as somebody from the Department. If we are asking managers about the delay in drawing down funding, for example, it would be useful to have a departmental representative - it could be the relevant principal officer - in the same room at the same time to give his or her view on it.

Chairman

Deputy Ó Broin's proposal is to have three or four county managers with a representative of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government in the session.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

We lack knowledge as to which local authority has the best performance and where is the most innovative and proactive council. I would like to find out which one it is, so maybe we should ask the county managers if they can help. I know what my own council does, but I do not know what every other council does. It is important to look for leadership within the local government structure, apart from the managerial structure. They might nominate somebody from their group who is innovative and bringing about significant changes. They would be building not on a bureaucracy but on commitment, expertise, drive and energy.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

There is nobody doing it.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I do not agree that there is nobody. I do not know that that is the case but we should ask them how we can bring about real change.

Chairman

Some of that might be addressed this afternoon, Deputy.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

Yes, but we should ask the local authorities to add to that list.

Chairman

I agree with the Deputy and that is effectively what Deputy Ó Broin was saying but in conjunction with the Department so that it would be a joint meeting. That was his proposal.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

On the provision of social housing, the approved housing bodies are significant players so we need to invite some of them in.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I have a couple of points to make. I would say that the problems facing various local authorities are very different. In Wexford, for example, where there is a waiting list of 3,800 on the social housing list, they do not have land; whereas in places like Dublin, they have land but they just have not got around to building on it.

For example, if somebody is from a county like Wexford - it would not have to be Wexford - or a local authority without any land, compulsory purchase will have to be considered if suitable land is to be delivered quickly. It is a different area that must be considered in terms of immediate problems in turning around housing quickly.

With regard to personnel to be invited for this, I recommend Dr. Rory Hearne of the geography department at Maynooth. I have heard him speak a few times on social housing and he might have a different take in some ways. He has put much work into this and thought much about it. He would be interesting. I have communicated with the committee secretariat but does the Chairman intend to deal with the ten points in order? If we are to deal with them one by one, I indicated that the order should be a little different.

Chairman

I spoke to the secretariat about how we might do it. As there is a very short timeframe, it might not always be possible to get a witness for a given day.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I accept that.

Chairman

We cannot afford to miss a session on a Tuesday or Thursday so we need a degree of latitude for the secretariat to try to get the relevant witnesses rather than just somebody from the Department or wherever else.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I am not saying we can get everybody when we want them. The element of finance is relevant to where and how we will get the money. It is crucial to many of the issues we will discuss in here. It should come earlier rather than later. That is all.

Chairman

Are members generally happy with that point? It is a general point and we still have to deal with potential witnesses, which is different. I do not want to get into that now, although I take the point.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

We should-----

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

I have sought to speak a few times.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

-----resolve initially to place the major part of the responsibility on the local authorities. They are best placed for this. By virtue of what has happened over the past number of years, we have reached our current position. There are no other bodies in the country better placed than local authorities. That requires money that can or has been provided in budgets and how they use it is up to themselves. They are the people who have the first charge on the issue and who are in the best position to be able to say how quickly they can do that job. If we diversify into other areas with other options, we will be here in six months or six years doing the same thing. We need to concentrate on the issue and put the responsibility fairly with the people who know the job better than anybody else.

Chairman

That is the first step taken by the committee. The County and City Managers Association will be here this afternoon and the representatives will be asked for the information outlined by the Deputy. There will be a follow-up meeting with local authority and Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government representatives to develop the exact point made by the Deputy. We will act on your proposal.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

It is very rarely that I find myself agreeing with Deputy Durkan on anything.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Indeed it is.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

I agree that the local authorities must be key to delivering social housing as they delivered it in the past for 80 to 90 years, although there is now another agent, which is NAMA. We have NAMA as a separate issue but it could be asked to deliver much more social housing. Its representatives should come in soon after that session. The role of the local authorities and NAMA must be teased out.

If we are inviting people to present, it is good to bring in representatives of the housing agencies. We should also consider academics and people who have studied the delivery of social housing, land costs and what has led to the current problem. I am not talking about big lectures for half an hour.

People such as Rory Hearne have written extensively on this issue. We suggested others in our submission as well. I can name them if necessary: John Bissett, Professor Cathal O'Connell and Joe Finnerty from UCC. It should not just be us asking housing agencies.

Finally, it is good that Dublin City Council is coming in but there are other councils in the county of Dublin. For example, there are 769 families homeless in Dublin at present, one third of whom live in the Fingal County Council area where I reside. We have a disproportionate problem and yet there is nobody coming in from that local authority. We should-----

Chairman

That is only so far, Deputy. We have not done the list, so-----

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

I was just going to say that either at that session or a later one, we need to have those people in because they are at the epicentre of the tsunami.

Chairman

It is your prerogative to make that proposal. We-----

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Yes. I did make it, in the submission, and you have not done it.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I do not know what criteria the County and City Management Association was given for this afternoon's meeting. I do now know whether the representatives were asked to come with a blank canvas or to bring all the necessary information, which I think they would have at their fingertips in any event. We cannot expect that any of the people the Chairman has said are coming would not to be able to do so and to bring with them some of the information that is needed. Many of the questions will probably be answered this afternoon and we should wait to see what happens.

I would like Alice Leahy from the Alice Leahy Trust to be invited to appear. She deals with the homeless at the coalface on a day-to-day basis. As well as academics, we should be looking at those people-----

Chairman

May I interrupt for a moment? I am not disagreeing with the Deputy but we are still on No. 2 on the agenda, social housing, and she has been referring to homelessness and Alice Leahy. I would like to finish deciding who we want to appear in respect of No. 2, social housing. We will take Alice Leahy later under the heading of homelessness, if that is okay with the Deputy.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

Alice Leahy would be somebody who knows exactly what is happening on the street.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

We need to talk about social housing, though, which is what we are talking about right now.

Chairman

We will just conclude on social housing.

Deputy Mary Butler

In respect of social housing and the financing of it, I would like the Irish League of Credit Unions to be invited before us.

Chairman

Wait one moment. We are on social housing. We will come to the financing aspect presently. I am not being dismissive of it but it is a section in its own right.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

This relates not so much to a policy issue in terms of housing but rather to a practical matter that is hugely important, namely, the way applicants are dealt with by local authorities. It is about the protocols that should be in place. One of the key issues I find, which other committee members may have come across, is that if a person is on the list for a significant period - say, five to seven years - there may be issues with the local authorities, which were in the past a very good listening post, with people who were trained and able to deal with other issues that arise with families. There need to be universal protocols in place for dealing with applicants in terms of respect for them, about not discussing their business in front of other people and so on. It is very important.

Perhaps the best way to put it is to ask the county managers or whoever whether there should be protocols in place in every local authority area for dealing with applicants in the context of respect for them as human beings, how and where they are listened to and privacy. All those issues are very important. I have people coming to me who say they have to stand at a hatch and everybody can hear what is going on. There are all sorts of human issues that have to be dealt with. Without going through them all myself, we should get the managers to come back to us with a list of protocols as to how people are dealt with. It applies to every local authority query in any event but, in particular, to housing applicants who have significant family problems and who have huge difficulties besides their actual housing need, which is compounded by these other problems.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

On the issue of social housing, when we are talking about social housing, we are talking about the rapid delivery of social housing. The players are the Department, the local authorities and approved housing bodies. We do not have time to wheel in people to give us opinions - academics and people we have heard speaking well at meetings.

We can find a way for those people to make a submission to this committee without necessarily having to appear before it. We need to focus on delivery, not on opinion.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

This afternoon we are starting with the local authority.

Chairman

The County and City Management Association.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

There is also an overlap as Cathal Morgan, director of the Dublin Region Homeless Executive, is appearing before the committee. It is vitally important that he should be here when we are talking about homelessness. There will be overlaps as we proceed. Are we happy to give a blank invitation to the housing agencies for them to send their representatives on Thursday or will we identify particular housing bodies? I accept the point that if we leave some out, they might be offended. Have we decided to leave it to the over arching body to send who it wishes?

Chairman

That has been the arrangement-----

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

Yes.

Chairman

-----at this point in time for this week because of the timescale that was available. As we go through this work programme, however, I ask members to focus on identifying specifically who they want brought to future meetings. In relation to social housing, members have spoken about the relevant local authorities with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. In terms of the people who would have an academic background - to refer to Deputy Brendan Ryan's point - does the committee want written submissions or, bearing in mind the timeframe available, do members wish them to attend?

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

We have a further agenda item, which is a legal section. When I was proposing it, I was thinking of a legal academic. That is the point on which we would invite those people-----

Chairman

Is the Deputy suggesting that for the matter of social housing?

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

-----and deal with those people under that section because they have an important contribution to make.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I agree with and support what Deputy Brendan Ryan said. We have all read books on social housing and people's-----

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

I very much doubt that the Deputy has read anything that any of those people have written.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

We are working here to try to find solutions. If some of these questioners get the floor and have a point to make, they should be allowed to make it without interruption from other members.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

We must show respect for our grouping.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

I will raise my hand to indicate I wish to speak.

Chairman

I ask members to speak through the Chair in order that we can conduct the meeting in as orderly a manner as possible. I call Deputy Coppinger.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

Sorry, through the Chair, I had not finished.

Chairman

Sorry, Deputy, my apologies.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I am speaking as a person who has read many of the academic books on homelessness, housing and social housing. To sit here and have somebody accuse me of not having read them is very offensive.

I really believe, because we are dealing with social housing, that we need to speak to somebody within the social housing section of Dublin City Council and the local authorities as to why people in communities are reluctant to allow social housing to be built in communities and the reason there is such strong objection to modular housing. I suggest that somebody from the councils should come before the committee to identify the reasons residents in areas where there is an accumulation of social housing are set against social housing being built and, in particular, modular housing. I would like to see somebody appear before the committee from Dublin City Council, South Dublin County Council, Fingal County Council and all those who deal with social housing on a daily basis.

Chairman

I will take that to be specific because we have agreed that we are going to invite in the local authorities. In terms of the Deputy's point about the reluctance and the objections to planning and the modular housing, we will advise them in advance that those questions will be raised so that they can provide the relevant answers. On the issue of social housing, are we happy to conclude?

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

I do not agree with the idea from the two previous speakers that we should not hear other points of view outside of the people who are already in the local authorities and in Government. The reason I said I doubt if the Deputy has read books on social housing is that in the past five years, there has been no vision in terms of providing local authority and public home building. These people have made those points. I do not think we should hear from the existing people who have a certain ideology. There is a need for other radical ideas.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

In response to that, we could be at cross purposes here. I have a strong view about the provision of local authority housing and have had all my life. I did not have to read about it anywhere. I grew up with it and have pursued it all through my political life, which is quite a long time.

I have no hesitation in saying that unless we rely on the local authorities to provide it, to be responsible and to have the main thrust of the burden to deal with that, then it is not going to happen. The problems we are now experiencing are a result of dividing the responsibility and taking it away from the local authorities and handing it over to private agencies or voluntary agencies. The agencies do very good work in their respective areas but are not capable of dealing with the burden of local authority housing that is required now. The next part of the agenda is going to deal with that.

The system which is in place has failed for the reason I have just said. There were too many people with responsibility and nobody had responsibility. I spoke about this publicly and privately on numerous occasions over the past 15 years and I predicted that this was going to fail.

Deputy Mick Wallace

Given that the past five years have been a disaster in how the supply of housing for all sectors has been dealt with, I am inclined to agree with Deputy Coppinger that some fresh thinking is not going to kill us. I would not suggest that anyone should come in to this committee and talk for an hour, but if people with some fresh thinking are allowed in to the committee and are confined to 15 or 20 minutes, then I do not think that would kill us.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I agree with Deputy Coppinger but I do not believe the proposal is that we do not invite the likes of Rory Hearne, for example, or others. A session could be held with representatives from the local authorities and departmental staff on the technical aspects of the delivery of social housing. A separate session could be held around housing policy, to which people such as Rory Hearne and Michelle Norris could be invited. We should invite those who are not just academics but also have direct experience of this problem and lots of fresh ideas. I suggest we invite those people to a housing policy and law session.

Chairman

Let us be clear. If the people to whom Deputy Coppinger referred have not been included at the end of the schedule, can she please bring it up again?

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Yes.

Chairman

Is that fair enough to all members? Agreed. With regard to the private rental sector, and I do not want a debate on the sector, I am looking for names of those whom the committee would wish to invite in as witnesses.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

There are five concrete proposals. The National Economic and Social Council, NESC, produced a very good report entitled Ireland’s Private Rental Sector: Pathways to Secure Occupancy and Affordable Supply. The author of that report could be invited to the committee. The chair of the Private Residential Tenancies Board, PRTB, could also be a good person to invite. I would also suggest a representative from Threshold, the overarching body for those who live in the private rented sector. Mr. Bob Jordan is the head of Threshold. One of the two groups of landlord representative bodies could also be included.

There is a whole discussion to be had around real estate investment trusts, REITs, coming in and buying up significant portfolios of properties. I do not have a particular person in mind from that sector but it should be part of our discussion. Inviting somebody who is involved in the REIT sector would allow the committee to interrogate that matter.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

The REIT issue is an important discussion because it is the basis for and the beginning of a lot of homelessness. I agree with some of the suggestions made by Deputy Ó Broin. Threshold runs a massive helpline and is at the cutting edge of the matter. I agree also with the inclusion of the PRTB. In addition - I do not know if it will be in this forum, perhaps the Chair could clarify - the committee needs to look at the whole area of rent controls. There was a proposal for a separate session on laws that may need to be brought in. I believe the committee needs to hear from a speaker on rent controls, how they operate in other countries and how rent controls could be implemented in Ireland. Rent control is a key issue which must be decided upon by this committee.

Chairman

I am not disagreeing with the issue but does the Deputy, or any member of the committee, have a speaker specifically in mind?

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

In my submission, I suggested Professor P. J. Drudy from Trinity College Dublin to speak on rent controls. It depends on what aspect is to be taken and if we are to look at the legal question. It was suggested that rent controls are unconstitutional and I do not know if the committee will look at that separately.

Chairman

We have a section on legal issues generally.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Okay. Professor Drudy could be invited to give the committee an overview on rent controls.

Chairman

Are there further suggestions for a speaker on the private rental sector?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

If the first element is satisfactory, we will not have to talk so much about the second element because the local authority housing development will have taken place and we will not be reliant on the private rental sector, which, in turn, has been reliant on the Department of Social Protection, as a means of providing what used to be provided by the local authorities. In the course of our work, we need representatives - one at least - of the various groups but we do not need to go all round the houses for the rest of the year dealing with them. Everyone has a unique story. We all deal with them every day of the week so we should be familiar with them ourselves. At this stage, trying to invent a system that will resolve our housing problems through the private rental sector is not going to happen. It cannot happen because there are not sufficient houses available in the country to meet the demand. Hence, rents are going up. Incidentally, not all landlords jack up the rents on a regular basis. Some landlords are very conscientious and look after their tenants very well. Others are not so caring and that is the group of people we need to zoom in on in the first instance.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I have a query regarding the Department of Social Protection. I presume the reference was to community welfare officers.

Chairman

The rent supplement issue, specifically.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

This is crucially important because they know better than anyone what is the level of supply and demand in their areas. They deal with the matter every day. There are differences, based on geographic or city location, as to the amounts that may be given. They relate to, say, rents in a city versus rents in a rural area. However, one of the key things I feel could make a significant difference is looking again at the rent-a-room scheme. The rent-a-room scheme is where people, usually just one individual, have a spare room in their primary residence. They rent out the room and can have a tax free income of €12,000 per annum from that rent. Second, the people who pay the rent can write it off against their tax liabilities.

There are issues with the scheme. For example, a couple cannot do it because the person must be living alone. There are issues around social welfare payments. There are issues depending on whether a person has a contributory or a non-contributory old age pension. What I am really asking is whether we could expand the availability of the room-to-rent scheme in the sector generally. Could we look at the rules and how they might change? I do not know who is the expert on this but I presume the Department of Social Protection may have a view on it. The other important point that comes in here is that, at the moment, I could bring in my nephew or my niece and he or she could get rent allowance to live in my home. However, there is no payment for my son or my daughter. A question arises. If the room or space is there - so we are not talking about overcrowded conditions - and as an exceptional measure only for a limited period of time, would it be possible for an existing family member to be in that situation? Is that possible? Could we it at that as an option? It is certainly worth examining.

Chairman

Deputy, you are getting into the substance of it and my view-----

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

Hold on a second now, Chairman. I might very well be getting into the substance of it but that is why I think it is important that when we are getting someone in from the Department of Social Protection, we get someone who actually knows the position and can talk about it. I appreciate that it may be detailed but if we do not get that information, we will be missing a potential plus.

Chairman

I was trying to be helpful. I was going to say that when we have representatives from the Department of Social Protection before us, the Deputy will be in a position to probe that issue.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I think, Chairman-----

Chairman

No-----

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

-----this needs to be looked at before they come. They need to have the answers.

Chairman

There are two elements to it. They will be advised of the issue. We can advise them of the issue.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

That is fine.

Chairman

However, the second part of it is that we may discover, as the issue is probed, that another Department or agency has an input as well and we may need to add that in at a later stage.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

Of course, yes.

Chairman

The point I was trying to make is that it might not totally reside-----

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

Sure. If, however, the Chairman ensures that witnesses know exactly what we - as best as we can tell them beforehand - are going to ask, it would make much more sense.

Chairman

We will do it. My only proviso was that it may go somewhere else.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I agree with bringing in Bob Jordan of Threshold. Another person who needs to be brought in is the acting Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan. Without a shadow of a doubt, many of the US investment funds have had a major impact on the private rental sector. The favourable tax arrangements put in place for them in the lifetime of the previous Government have had a major impact in this area. It would be good if the Minister was brought in.

Chairman

Does anyone else wish to comment on this section?

Deputy Brendan Ryan

Another element of this is rent control, rent certainty or long-term rental opportunities. We need to bring someone in at this point during this module to give us a view of international practice in this area rather than taking it out and putting it into a separate section on legal issues. We need to have a general debate on that.

Chairman

Yes, because it affects the market.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

It is appropriate that we leave it there.

Chairman

No. 4 relates to private housing. Who are our potential witnesses?

Deputy Seán Canney

I suggest that the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland be brought in. It represents estate agents and professional practitioners in quantity surveying and cost management. That would be a worthwhile organisation to bring in.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I agree. Other representative bodies could include those from the construction industry. We need to know their capabilities and how they propose to go about it. This includes the Construction Industry Federation. We should consider representatives of estate agents and mortgage brokers as well, although I am unsure whether I want to talk to mortgage brokers after recent years.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I recommend that the committee bring in Jim Keogan from the planning department of Dublin City Council. He has much to offer in this area.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

John O'Connor from the Housing Agency is another. I realise we will have the Housing Agency in during other modules but his expertise in private housing would be useful as well.

Chairman

John O'Connor will be in this Thursday with the Housing Agency. By the way, some of these people will overlap. At the meetings, we will have to allow some degree of latitude to broaden the questioning.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

I want some clarity about what this session is meant to be about. As I have said already, I have something of an issue with having an entire session on private housing. Private housing is not affordable and that is the problem. It is fine if that is what we are discussing but some people simply want to increase housing supply. As I said at the outset, we can increase housing supply as we did during the Celtic tiger when many developers and speculators benefited but people could not afford that housing. I want clarity on the purpose of the private housing session.

Certain issues need to be discussed. We have so-called millennials. These are people who are under 34 years of age. For them, the idea of owning a house is completely off the agenda. We need to have someone before the committee who will deal with that issue. It should not only be Tom Parlon of the Construction Industry Federation. We need to consider what is happening in the private housing sector, whether it is someone from NAMA or someone else. The statements from the private housing sector seem to suggest it is not profitable enough to build, that a mark-up of €20,000 on a house is not enough and that they need far more. Perhaps you could clarify the purpose of that session, Chairman.

Chairman

I will come back to you on that in a moment.

Deputy Mick Wallace

The issue of private housing has been raised. I do not take the position of the CIF but I believe there are major problems with the supply of private housing in Ireland. Affordability is the primary issue. Two thirds of the people are probably always going to use private housing. It is a huge issue and very problematic.

It has not been addressed for years by any Government. There is a limit as to how much we can do but it would be negligent of us to ignore the fact that there are major problems in the delivery of private housing.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

I know that there will be a section on mortgage difficulties and arrears. In respect of private housing, however, people need to be able to get a mortgage. Is there a need for one of the banks to be involved at that stage?

Chairman

I have considered this, based on the submissions, to be the physical building and provision of new houses rather than the mortgage and financing side. It could be included with No. 10. This is primarily about the provision of houses. As others have said, there is no construction.

To Deputy Coppinger, this committee is focused primarily on social and affordable housing but we have to have a mix. As Deputy Wallace said, two thirds of people will live in private housing. It is part of the big picture and we cannot consider one element without the other. Our remit is quite narrow.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The cost of housing to the average household is way above what would normally be expected. As a result, too much of the family income must go towards paying a mortgage or rent. In some areas rents are moving towards €2,000 per month. Some are higher already. How does a family exist if it has to set aside €2,000 per month to pay rent or a mortgage? Supply in the private sector does have an effect. The problem arose when there was speculation in the marketplace and properties were rolled over on three, four or five times, very often without a sod being turned on the site, to achieve an artificially inflated value which was then passed on in the cost of the house. We cannot allow that to continue because it caused serious problems. People may be upset that somebody should say that but it is a fact.

There are no circumstances in which half of the family income should go to paying the mortgage. It is not possible. It will lead to tears many years in the future. We need to recognise that the level of family income that goes towards meeting the mortgage or rent in the public and private sectors will have a major impact on our society.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Two thirds of people rely on the private housing sector but that is why we have problems because housing is primarily for speculation. In that session, we must consider the factors that have led to houses being so expensive. This is where we should bring in somebody who has studied land ownership and speculation. We suggested in our submission Conor McCabe, who has written Sins of the Father: Tracing the Decisions that Shaped the Irish Economy. Rory Hearne could be there and Dr. Sinéad Kelly from the department of geography at National University of Ireland, Maynooth. There has to be some perspective on why this has happened.

Chairman

I do not disagree but I am conscious of the timeframe in which we are operating. It would be impossible to invite everyone.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

One of those people.

Chairman

I agree with what the Deputy is trying to do and will accommodate that but not everybody.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Conor McCabe would probably be the most appropriate of the three to deal specifically with land and how it relates to that discussion.

Chairman

We will endeavour to do that.

No. 5, NAMA, should probably be a stand-alone session.

Let us not have the debate on it now. I know you all have lots of questions.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I do not want a debate, I just want to suggest a speaker.

Chairman

From NAMA?

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I presume it is not just NAMA. I presume if there are other people who have interesting things to say----

Chairman

That was the proposal. I asked if we should do a stand-alone session. There seems to have been a lot of discussion about NAMA. Would that be a stand-alone session?

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Yes.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

Yes.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I want to suggest a speaker who would come in. We cannot just have NAMA on its own in here. That is not what the Chairman is proposing, is it? There are other people who have expertise on NAMA and on homelessness, who might have interesting things to contribute. Mark Kenney, for example, from Mazars, would be worthy of inviting in alongside NAMA.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The only problem is that we may have some questions to ask directly of NAMA ourselves, as elected public representatives. We may be able to come to a judgment as to what is realistic, achievable and attainable, what NAMA's responsibility might be and how it might be extended to accommodate the kind of housing situation we are faced with. I am not certain that we should have a general debate on the whys and wherefores at this stage. We know about NAMA. We have lived with it for the past seven or eight years now and I am sure we all have acquired a certain amount of expertise. There are things that are possible and things that are not possible. I think we should concentrate on NAMA by itself for a start.

Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Are we all agreed that we are inviting the CEO and the chair of NAMA? That would be Brendan McDonagh and Frank Daly.

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

I know what the Deputy is saying but there is no harm in having somebody in who also has issues to raise about NAMA.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I would hope there would be so many questions for NAMA it would go on for two days.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Absolutely.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

After that, if issues arise, that is when we should bring others in.

Chairman

If we can manage the work programme in a businesslike way, I would hope that we would have a session or two to spare so that if we wanted to bring somebody back or if something emerges during the process, we can add somebody. I hope that we work as efficiently as possible.

No. 6 is homelessness.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

What aspect of homelessness do we consider to be appropriate in this module?

Chairman

If we just reflect for one moment on the terms of reference of the committee, one of the key elements is to make recommendations. These might concern how people come into homelessness, what preventative steps can be taken, etc. We are to make very specific recommendations that might be helpful to people who are dealing with homelessness. We should consider whether there are things that could be done to prevent or reduce the risk of becoming homeless, for example. In respect of people who are homeless - this is where the agencies come in - what additionally could and should be done to move them back into accommodation? It is quite a complex area and people are homeless for myriad reasons. They would be some of the broader issues.

I take the point that some of the previous speakers have made. There is quite a range of bodies and organisations dealing with homelessness. It is not going to be possible to invite in every individual group but certainly homelessness is one of the key elements.

Deputy Kathleen Funchion

We need to make sure that we are looking at homelessness from a regional point of view. A number of people have said it is not just a Dublin issue but the homeless situation is very different for someone in a rural area. A lot of people cannot even consider accessing emergency accommodation because it is 15 to 20 minutes away from where their kids are going to school. While I know we cannot invite in every single agency, in Carlow-Kilkenny and in the south east where Deputy Mary Butler is, Focus Ireland does a huge amount of work. In Dublin, they have an overarching agency for homelessness but we do not really have that in the south east. Focus Ireland sort of fills that role and I would like to see that organisation being invited in to get that point of view. We also have a situation in rural areas where people in emergency accommodation sometimes have to refuse an offer of a house because they have no transport and the house is 30 minutes or so away from where their kids are going to school.

We need to remember that. Unfortunately, the focus appears to be on Dublin.

Chairman

I take the point about the regional side.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

This is a difficult issue because we could all suggest many groups. We may need more than one session on homelessness because this is the Committee on Housing and Homelessness. There was a debate during the previous meeting about inviting organisations or those who are directly affected to come before the committee. We have to do both. It would send out a terrible message if the committee met but did not speak to people who are experiencing homelessness. We should agree that and not have a standing row about it.

Chairman

Let us discuss that point. Deputy Coppinger is asking whether the committee wants individuals who are currently homeless to come before it.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I do not think that would be of any great benefit at this stage. As public representatives, we deal with people who are homeless on a daily basis. We should at least be able to consider ourselves to be somewhat expert in the area. Putting people who are homeless through a question-and-answer session about how they became homeless and what we can do to stop it is not appropriate. We all know how to address the issue, namely, provide alternative housing accommodation. It is as simple as that. We need to decide on how that can be done quickly. I reiterate that the reason we are faced with the current situation is because too many public sector bodies had responsibility to provide housing. As a result, we got nothing. The slowdown in the construction sector means we are in a worse position.

A number of factors cause people to become homeless. Some are in the traditional category known as rough sleepers. Their situation is made worse by more individuals who have not been accommodated by local authorities by virtue of the fact they did not have accommodation for them coming off the list. There are emergency situations where people are sent to hostels. I spoke to somebody at the weekend who travels 50 miles to see their children, and has nowhere else to go but a hostel. It is sad and heart-rending to discuss such cases. I do not think we should do that kind of thing in public session.

Chairman

I take the Deputy's point. I do not want to open a debate. I ask Deputies to address whether they want individuals who have become homeless, agencies or both to come before the committee. I need a degree of clarity on that point.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I speak as somebody who has worked for a homeless services provider for three years. Most of the organisations which work with those who are homeless, whether they are the more traditional cases or those who have become homeless as a result of the financial crisis, will say it is really important that policymakers hear the experiences of those who have found themselves homeless. Clearly, some of those people can be very vulnerable and others have more resilience than those of us here. The homelessness service providers in Dublin have an informal network to assist people who want to be able to share their experiences. There is a real value, in terms of the committee's work, in hearing people's experiences.

Deputy Durkan is correct in saying that we all have people coming into our constituency offices. That is no substitute for hearing someone's direct experience of having to deal with a council, how it engages with him or her, whether he or she feels the service is user-friendly, etc. I would not limit such engagement to people living in emergency accommodation. We are examining a wide range of issues in the housing crisis. There is a value, whether in a stand-alone session or during a regular meeting, to bring before the committee a number of people who can outline their experiences. I am strongly in favour of that.

Deputy Kathleen Funchion

We should invite agencies and individuals to come before the committee. I agree with Deputy Coppinger that we may need to have a second session.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I also agree. I do not think that bringing people before the committee and questioning and listening to them, as Deputy Durkan suggested, would do any of us any harm. Such engagement could take place in private session.

Chairman

Somebody's phone is causing interference.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I apologise. Hearing about people's direct experiences can be very educational. We have all read a great deal about refugees.

When I went to Calais the weekend before last and listened to people tell their stories, it gave me a different perspective. If we invite a few people to come before the committee who have direct experience of that, and the meeting can be in private session, we will learn from it.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

It goes back to the point made earlier about the way social housing applicants and homeless people are treated. I agree strongly with the Deputy that we must articulate a process by which people are treated with respect across the board. It is unfortunate that sometimes people who were homeless are not treated with the respect to which they are entitled. A way of doing that is if they would agree that we could visit some of the hostels or hotels where people who are homeless are living.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

You cannot-----

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I will not split hairs with anybody here. I would like to be in a forum where I could meet people who are homeless who could relax and talk to us about those issues. I do not know whether that would be a public forum but I would like to hear what they have to say. Deputy Wallace made an important point when he said that if we were to meet them in committee it would allow them express their views without any of their personal details becoming public knowledge, if that was their wish, but it is important that we meet people. In terms of visiting places, I do not have a problem going to somewhere like Homeless Aid in Drogheda, which is a charity that looks after people who are homeless. I have visited it previously and met with people there who expressed their views to me. A forum in which we can listen to people outline their needs is important.

Deputy Mary Butler

It is important that we listen to homeless people. I spoke to homeless people yesterday in terms of preparing for this meeting but I do not believe it would be appropriate to bring two or three homeless people into the opulence of Leinster House to come before a full session of this committee with 14 TDs. It might be more appropriate for two or three of us to meet them in smaller surroundings; it might not be fair or appropriate to bring them into this type of setting. I have no problem speaking to homeless people. All of us speak to them every day of the week but perhaps three members could speak to them as it might be daunting for someone to have to come in here and tell their story.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

Under this heading of homelessness, we need to get at the key drivers of homelessness, split between rough sleepers and the other homelessness issue in terms of lack of supply. We need to come up with preventive measures. It is not necessary to invite people in here to get at the heart of this issue; the representative bodies can do that. However, if the general view is that we should hear from the people affected, it should be in private session.

Deputy Kathleen Funchion

It is important that people would have the choice to do that. Many people would welcome the opportunity to come before this committee. Erica Fleming was in here a few weeks ago and met a number of TDs. It would be up to the people concerned whether they want to come in. There are many people who would want to come in and we should not rule that out.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I hope we would not be seen to be using the people who are homeless in the context of attempting to resolve a problem. They are abused already. One of the contributing factors is where lending institutions repossess homes. We need to have an exchange of views with representatives of the lending institutions because it is an issue we all come across on a daily basis. Court cases are held on a regular basis. I would strongly support people in that position but two issues arise in that regard. The first is where the borrowers are intent on doing their best to meet their payments in so far as they can. We have to respect and acknowledge that. When people become homeless as a result of the lending institution foreclosing on them, we must be sympathetic towards them. All of us have dealt with those cases in recent years.

It is not a thing that happened today or yesterday; it has been going on for a number of years. I request that the term "lending institutions" be inserted there.

Chairman

While I acknowledge that one or two members wish to contribute a second time, on the basis of those who have contributed, there are more people in favour of meeting individuals as well as the organisations. There also seems to be a view that this should be done in private session, whether here or somewhere else.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Agreed.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

I do not agree with that.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

While I do not want to return to the discussion, I want to make a slightly different proposal to try to move this forward.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

I would like to make a proposal as well.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

This is the first division of opinion we have had. There is a service users forum, which Focus Ireland and a number of other NGOs co-ordinate. Perhaps, it would be helpful if the Chairman contacted the person who co-ordinates that - she is a staff member of Focus Ireland - and have a chat to see what is the best way to proceed with this. When the Chairman has that conversation with these people, he will realise that some of the concerns expressed by members are not shared by professionals in the field and they are much more open to a presentation. I propose that as a way forward.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

We should have both. We should have representatives and people experiencing homelessness.

With regard to private session, the way members are speaking about the homeless is in danger of being incredibly patronising. Homeless people are not a species apart who are sensitive and vulnerable. Anyone invited before the committee to speak will know they are speaking to members. They are intelligent people and they can make that decision for themselves. I am wary of the message that would be sent by meeting homeless people in private. Anyone who is invited will know he or she is being invited. Many homeless people have made the decision to speak out and that is what I am talking about.

Members are saying they are dealing with homeless people. Some are but others are not as much. However, there are particular problems we should deal with, for example, travelling between school and emergency accommodation at huge cost to the persons involved. We should propose something on that. There is also the issue of homelessness among non-Irish people. This has not featured but it is a massive issue in my constituency, which is affected disproportionately. This is a problem for Muslims and Africans and there are different cultural issues. Meeting homeless people in private will send out the wrong message. We should invite people in.

Chairman

Can I follow up on Deputy Ó Broin's proposal that I make contact with the user group and bring back their proposals or thoughts?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Agreed.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

If members know homeless people or families who want to speak before the committee, we can suggest them.

Deputy Seán Canney

I refer to No. 9.

Chairman

We have not got to it.

Deputy Seán Canney

It is about social inclusion and, therefore, I presume No. 9 is being dealt with now.

Chairman

No, we are not dealing with it yet.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

On the substantive issue of the homelessness section, I would like to make a number of suggestions. Dr. Eoin O'Sullivan from TCD and Mr. Cathal Morgan from the homeless agency are two people we absolutely should have in. I reiterate there is a genuine difficulty in inviting individual homeless service providers in areas where there are networks. For example, there are more than 40 services providers outside the statutory organisations in Dublin. They have a forum. Alice Leahy and her organisation are on that forum, as are others. Where there is a forum such as that, we should consider approaching the forum rather than individual groups. However, I acknowledge the position in Cork and Limerick may be slightly different. Where there is a structure that represents the voluntary sector, we should invite representatives of the structure and where there is not, we should invite individuals recommended by members.

Chairman

That concludes No. 6.

No. 7 is legal issues. This can be broad because it relates to CPOs and so forth.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

The first issue is the legalities relating to rent control.

Chairman

Has the Deputy somebody in mind for that?

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Yes. Can I go through three areas and then suggest speakers?

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

The first two are: security of tenure and sale of properties; and grounds for eviction.

The third issue is compulsory purchase orders of privately owned property or land. It is an issue that has come up with regard to vulture fund, distressed vacant properties. One speaker I was thinking of was Edmund Honahan, Master of the High Court, who has spoken recently on the CPOs, or somebody like him. Barra Lysaght is a barrister and legal officer of Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. He was formerly a legal officer with Threshold, so he might be a good person on rent controls and security of tenure legal issues. The third group that could be invited is the Tyrrelstown tenants, who are currently in the situation of asking for their homes to be acquired because they are under threat from a vulture fund.

Chairman

Are there any other proposals in this area?

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

We should broaden this out to include housing policy and law because it fits and there is some good overlap. Michelle Norris is with the Housing Finance Agency and is one of the country's leading policy experts with a good read on best practice in other parts of the world. She would contribute well. FEANTSA is a network of European housing and homeless charities. There is a FEANTSA Ireland person who could give the committee the broader legal and policy experience. Simon Brooke is a visiting professor of Trinity College Dublin. He works for Clúid but I suggest we invite him in with his TCD hat on. He has huge experience of housing and homelessness in Britain and Ireland in the legal and policy areas. I suggest those speakers and agree with Deputy Ruth Coppinger's suggestions.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

We should invite a representative of the Law Society of Ireland.

Chairman

I do not want to harp back but I and others mentioned the issue of the Constitution and the right to housing during the debate. It has been mentioned and referred to both directly and indirectly. Perhaps the Law Society or a body like that might have a view on it. It would be worth probing at this stage. Is everybody happy at this stage?

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

If the Law Society cannot do it, there is a professor of housing law in NUI, Galway who might be another person to add. His name is Padraic Kenna.

Chairman

The next issue is mortgage difficulties.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

That is the area I referred to earlier. It comes in under the homelessness issue.

Chairman

The Deputy is getting his turn now.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I am not so sure about the insolvency bodies. FLAC is one we should meet. We should meet representatives of people experiencing mortgage difficulties, which includes two categories of people. One group of people were busy during the recent election in my constituency putting stickers on posters and that kind of thing. They call themselves the New Land League. I want to emphasise that I do not hold any brief for people who do not wish to pay at all. It is not in our interest to hold a brief for people who do not wish to pay at all. It is in our interest and the interest of our society to ensure that we give careful consideration and support to those who are attempting to do their best and meet their payments to the best of their ability, very often at great sacrifice to themselves and their families. We most certainly need to support them. The bodies we need to discuss that with are the lenders. The time has come to have at least one slot where we can deal with them directly. By all means, if somebody wants to come in and make their case, I have no difficulty with that but I would prefer to do so privately. We all do our constituency work privately. People do not really want to have their private affairs aired in public if they can avoid it at all so we must respect their privacy. The lending agencies need to be brought in on that issue and so does the Central Bank because unregulated third parties are in control of quite a number of mortgages throughout the country at present. It behoves us to try to ensure, in so far as we can, that the rules of the Central Bank on lending and repossession and rights to houses and mortgages are observed by the unregulated third parties and that the unregulated third parties are regulated.

This relates to some of the things that have already been said by Deputy Coppinger and others. I believe there is an obligation on us to ensure that "unregulated" third parties recognise the need to treat the people with whom they are dealing with respect, honesty and fairness.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

To go back to an earlier point on the difficulties for people in getting a mortgage, we need the banks and the credit unions to come in-----

Chairman

I want probe that point as this follows on from something Deputy Ó Broin said. Are we looking for the individual banks or the banking federation to come in?

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

If we are going through the various overarching bodies, it is fine that we would do it through the federation but we would also involve the credit unions, given their role, and MABS.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I agree with other speakers that we would invite all of these people and if some cannot come, I would suggest some others to fill the other positions. David Hall of the Irish Mortgage Holders Association would certainly be close to the top of my list for this section. Claire Feeney runs the mortgage-to-rent section inside the Housing Agency and, if she was in a position to come in, I believe she would have very interesting things to say to us. There is an argument that there are specific individuals in some of the local authorities who are dealing with what role the local authority can play when somebody is in mortgage distress, for example, in terms of assisting in the purchase of the home, so it would be interesting to hear from them. I agree with Deputy Mick Wallace's point on the Minister for Finance. I would also like to hear the Minister for Finance on this, particularly as portfolios of mortgages are being sold on to unregulated funds. As we are seeing in Tyrrelstown, this is a major cause of some of these difficulties, so I would like to see either a departmental official or the Minister come in to deal with that aspect. To give a final name, Karl Deeter often has interesting things to say, although I do not always agree with him. He might be somebody we could consider.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I agree with Deputy Ó Broin. There is no doubt that what Deputy Durkan classified as unregulated third parties seem to have the power to run amok at the moment. The acting Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, is probably the best Government individual to address that issue. We have to look at whether we can stop them from running amok and if we have any control over them and how they treat Irish people who are in mortgage distress. That needs to be addressed. In terms of others to invite in, I would mention Ross Maguire.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

This is an important session in that, while the people who get into mortgage arrears do not automatically become homeless, it is closely linked to the whole issue. We should consider inviting some of the receivers who are carrying out the repossessions of homes, which are then leading to homelessness. I agree with other speakers on the issue of the REITs and the vulture funds that have now acquired big books of mortgages in the market. We should invite in representatives of those like Mars Capital and others because this is now leading to the sell-off of these homes and leading directly to homelessness. I agree we should invite the Minister for Finance. Policy on the whole issue of mortgages is emanating from the Department of Finance, so he should come in.

Deputy Kathleen Funchion

There are many groups that provide support for people in mortgage distress, for example, with regard to free legal aid, but sometimes the wait is very long. One group, the Hub, is very active in the south-east as well as in other areas. I believe we should consider inviting its representatives because they support people who cannot afford the cost of legal fees. It would be a good group to invite to the committee.

Deputy Seán Canney

The Credit Union Development Association, CUDA, which is part of the credit union movement, should also be brought in.

Chairman

In respect of this section, I would make the point that it has been a very extensive list so we must see what is manageable. I take it from the opening comments that either the Minister or the Department of Finance need to be at the front end of this session. We will go through the list, which we will circulate later. It dawned on me, as the Deputy was speaking, that there are an awful lot of names.

Deputy Mary Butler

We should get a balance and I agree with Deputy Coppinger that we definitely need representatives from the vulture funds. We need somebody from each section where people are affected and not the same individuals representing the same section in respect of the difficulties in which people find themselves. We definitely need somebody from the vulture fund end because that is a significant issue at present.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

We do not need a commentary on what has gone wrong. We know that so what we need to do is engage with those who are making it wrong.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

There is a big assumption that everyone knows what is going on.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

No disrespect to-----

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

It is a public body.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Some of us have been learning this for many long years and there are those of us who learned it lately. We have all done our bit at the coalface and we did not come late to the table. I want to clearly point out that this is not a new situation for most of us. If it is a new situation for most of us, then over the past five years people in this country have been reading the newspapers, watching television and listening to what certain individuals have had to say during the past seven to eight years. We know what the problems are and have acquired considerable knowledge of them. I strongly suggest that we bring the major lending agencies, of which there are only three or so, which have a direct input into what we are talking about and ask them questions.

The Housing Finance Agency is another organisation that used to have quite an amount of influence on both local authority housing and local authority loans. There was once a time when people could get local authority loans relatively easily provided they had a certain income. We need to hear from that part of the market as well. If we do not do that and just comment on how awful the situation is, we can wring our hands and tear our hair but we will be doing that in six months and two years. The time has come to deal directly with the issues and engage with those at the coalface. Let us hear from them.

Chairman

The next section is issues relating to social inclusion.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

The idea behind this is that it would be the session involving those who are directly experiencing different aspects of the crisis. Obviously, we have dealt with the homeless aspect but I want to come on-----

Chairman

I agree because I know where the Deputy is going with this. We need to be careful that there is an opportunity with regard to people or groups we may have omitted at earlier sections. Some of them might relate to very specialist areas. This is an opportunity to think outside the box. It might be a bit more than just direct homelessness so this is an opportunity to fill that space and address those issues specifically.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

In that spirit, I will leave the homeless section to one side because we have dealt with that for the moment but there are a number of groups who should be at this. I agree with Deputy Coppinger in respect of the Tyrrelstown residents. I suggest that it be done here, although I would not have a row about it. I think they need to be somewhere in the programme.

A very large number of families that were in the asylum system and have been granted status are now trapped in direct provision because they cannot get either private rented or council accommodation. There are approximately 40 such families in Clondalkin and the State-wide picture is much larger so they need to be involved. There are organisations that are working with those families that would be happy to provide a speaker and I will pass the name on to the clerk to the committee afterwards.

Traveller homelessness is a specific problem, both in terms of its causes and also the additional barriers that Travellers, particularly those who are single, face in accessing housing. Again, the Traveller organisations at a State-wide level would be the first port of call. In addition to homelessness - both the more traditional type and that relating to the financial crash - families facing eviction, people trapped in direct provision who should not be there and Travellers should be included in this section.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

I detest the term "social inclusion". I would have thought that the purpose of this session relates to groups with special housing needs because this is the housing committee.

Traveller specific accommodation, for example, is an area of special housing need. Pavee Point, or one of the other Traveller groups, should come in. I agree the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland, for example, or some other migrant group should come in on the issue of refugees and direct provision. I would prefer if the Tyrrelstown residents were not put in that category, as I think theirs is more of a financial issue. Those groups are the key ones.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

As we are talking about special housing needs, I want to mention two other groups. The first is prisoners leaving prison who are facing into homelessness. I know there is an overlap with homelessness on this but there are a couple of groups who work directly with former prisoners. The other group is those in recovery from addiction. Again, the difficulty is because of the lack of housing stock. For those in recovery, being in hostel accommodation where there is much active drug and alcohol use going on is difficult. This is another area of special housing needs that, if we get it right, we can prevent a revolving door.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

I agree with Deputy Ruth Coppinger that social inclusion is probably the wrong heading for it and special housing needs would be more appropriate. We need to deal with the Traveller accommodation issue, as well as accommodation for those with drug addiction, etc., as Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan said. Another category is those with disabilities who are a long time on the housing list because local authorities cannot provide them with specific accommodation or do not have modified houses. That is a specific category with which we need to deal.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Agreed.

Chairman

The last time I checked I was chairing this committee.

Does Deputy Brendan Ryan have a disability representative organisation in mind?

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

The Centre for Independent Living would be a good one.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

Yes.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Important issues are the elderly, what happens later in life, downsizing and special accommodation for the elderly.

Chairman

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan spoke about those recovering from drug addiction. Much residential rehabilitation is done by the voluntary sector and is not particularly well funded. Several years ago, one residential centre, which I will not name because we are in public session, made a proposal that, for those going into residential care for extended periods and who had an entitlement to housing support but were not able to claim it, should have their support follow them. Perhaps the committee should examine that particular practical proposal. I will give the name of the organisation to the secretariat afterwards. The benefit of this proposal would allow for people to be in treatment for longer, meaning it would be more successful.

We will now turn to housing finance. Deputy Mick Wallace has several ideas on this area.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I would like to see the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, come in again, as well as Paul Sweeney from TASC, the Think-tank for Action on Social Change. We have a significant challenge in how we are going to fund a really good social housing programme. I do not believe we should be going down the PPP, public private partnership, route in which money costs 15 times more than what can be borrowed on the markets.

Given that this is an emergency, if we are to get €10 billion for infrastructural investment in the housing area, we will probably need a break from Europe on the fiscal rule. Being able to borrow money at 0.7% would be great value and would have significant knock-on effects for the whole economy, society and employment. Paying 15 times more for it through a PPP is not attractive.

Europe leaves much to be desired as far as sums are concerned. At this stage, however, it is imperative that the Irish State be allowed to break the fiscal rule and borrow money from the markets at less than 1%.

Chairman

We should not get into the detail. What are the Deputy's recommendations for witnesses?

Deputy Mick Wallace

That is why I am saying that I want the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, to come before us. Mr. Paul Sweeney has done some good work in this area and it would do us good to listen to him.

Chairman

Deputy Ó Broin had somebody in mind.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I have a couple of suggestions. The chief executive officer of the Housing Finance Agency is an obvious one for this section. There is also the chief executive of the Irish League of Credit Unions in light of some of that organisation's recent proposals. I do not have a name but I am trying to follow Deputy Wallace's point. There should be somebody with some expertise in arm's-length and off-balance sheet mechanisms that may be an option for the State to use to increase borrowing capacity. That would certainly be worth examining and I will revert with a name if we can find one.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

I agree with many of those suggestions. The issue is whether we are in a position to fund a social housing programme under current European Union fiscal rules. There is no clarity about that. Somebody from the Department of Finance-----

Chairman

That was Deputy Wallace's first point and he referred to the Department and the Minister in particular.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

We definitely need somebody who specialises in that. There are also academics who could be suggested, although there should not be too many. Dr. Michael Byrne and Sinead Kelly are from Maynooth university. I agree that the Departments of the Environment, Community and Local Government and Finance will be critical in this regard as well.

Deputy Seán Canney

With the Irish League of Credit Unions, we should include the Credit Union Development Association, CUDA.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Yes, that is true.

Deputy Seán Canney

That is very important.

Chairman

We have that. Somebody said it.

Deputy Seán Canney

I read with interest in one of the Sunday newspapers about a company on the Stock Exchange raising money in London as a house builder in Ireland. It owns 20% of the land for development around Dublin. It is a problem when people buy land and hold it until the market comes right. We need to consider this in real terms because these kinds of companies will hoard land because they can afford to do so. They look at it as perhaps a five or ten-year programme by means of which to make a profit. At the same time, we cannot build anything. Deputy Durkan lives in the greater Dublin area and land is being bought to be held. There must be penalties so that people will use it or lose it. That is something on which the Department should contribute.

Chairman

To be helpful, we should look at an element of that in doing the legal section. That goes to one of the key issues around the possible right to housing as a constitutional matter. It would give strength to that type of possible legislation.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I strongly agree with Deputy Canney in that area. I agree with the Ministers for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform. They have a role to play and a comment to make. Each of us has approached them individually on many occasions in recent years in order to put forward proposals that have not yet been favoured. However, there is always a first time and our current position regarding housing requires a fairly dramatic and drastic response.

There are a number of agencies involved with the lending business. I met representatives of Trinity Ireland Housing Association some time ago and they had proposals to provide funding off-balance sheet. The difficulty is that most of these agencies borrow money at 3% or 4%, whereas the Government can borrow money at less than 1%. We should clearly try to position ourselves to get the benefit of the cheapest money available. That is in the national interest and in the interest of the economy in general, as well as everybody in the country. We must speak with the Ministers for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform about this. As I have suggested before, a housing development bond could be floated, with a view to meeting the requirements under this heading off-balance sheet and trying to ensure we can do so in the shortest time possible.

Chairman

Does Deputy Wallace wish to come back in?

Deputy Mick Wallace

Yes. The land banking is going to come up in a number of sections. In section 3, on the private rental sector, when one strips away the clothes, one will see that the biggest primary problem with the affordability of the private sector is that we have a completely unregulated land-banking sector, which we do not tax. If we are serious, a "use it or lose it" policy will have to be adopted, and we will discuss that through the legal section.

Chairman

At this point I wish to make one or two general comments and then I shall do something specific. Obviously there have been a number of suggestions and recommendations and we will get the secretariat to collate them as far as possible and distribute this information among the members. It is important to note that while we have ten sessions set out, members will have to use their own experience and latitude when a witness is presenting to decide what we talk about, whether it is on the legal side or whether members want to drift into the area of land banking and so forth. Witnesses might not be coming back on different categories, so members must use the opportunity when we have them in.

At the very start of the meeting, Deputy Wallace was concerned that finance was towards the bottom of the agenda. I indicated that we will have to have a degree of flexibility with people because it is a six-week period and we cannot afford to say we have nobody in next week. Are there two or three items on this agenda that people want to prioritise in order that we will ask the secretariat to try to get those people in at an earlier stage?

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I support the proposal to have someone from the Department of Finance as early as possible in the schedule. The rest flows pretty well.

Chairman

One of the other issues that had been mentioned with a degree of urgency at the previous meeting was NAMA. Is it agreed to have NAMA and the Minister for or the Department of Finance in here as early as possible? Agreed.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

My point is not about the order of discussions but is a suggestion that if we have time, we should have a special session for ourselves. Some of the solutions we are going to propose will be around social housing, modular housing and housing for groups with special housing needs. What we have got traditionally and will get in the future is local opposition to this kind of proposal. There will be councillors, in some cases representative of the parties around this table, who will be voting against those kinds of proposals. We should have a session about political opposition to it and how we address that as a group. It is something we should do if we have time, perhaps at the end. I recommend that we would have a short session on that for ourselves.

Chairman

With a view to being helpful to the Deputy and others, I think we will do the session as laid out. However, if we can do our business effectively and stick to a timescale, it is important in regard to issues that might arise during our deliberations that we have the opportunity to bring somebody back, to bring in somebody new or to add something we had not contemplated at the beginning. If we are going to work two sessions a day, two days a week and work our way through these issues, we may well be able to create enough space to visit a number of issues that will emerge, just like the Deputy has said.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I support Deputy Ryan's proposal. We have to look at the possibility of emergency legislation, particularly in this area. What format it will take remains to be seen, but if we allow the objections to prevail in respect of how we address the issue, which is a major national issue at present, we are not going to resolve anything at all and it will go on forever. Without impinging on people's rights to any great extent, we may need legislation.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Without prolonged discussion, first of all, emergency legislation is already in place and my understanding is that it was used in the case of the Poppintree modular homes.

Having just come from a council where we put through a number of what were perceived as very controversial Part 8 planning applications with cross-party consent, give or take one or two individuals, that is a matter for the political parties and the local authorities and political parties need to step up to the plate and make the right decisions. It is not a policy issue for this committee and, therefore, I have no objection to discussing it but I just do not see its direct relevance other than for parties who are opposing social housing where it is needed to stop doing it.

Chairman

At this stage I thank members for their contributions. The list of potential witnesses is fairly extensive and the secretariat will work on it. Obviously, we have to send out invitations for next week's meeting. I propose we adjourn until 3.30 p.m. when we will be in public session with representatives of the County and City Management Association.

In general, has the work programme as outlined been agreed? Agreed. In terms of next week's witnesses, given the short notice, are members happy to leave that to the secretariat? Agreed. We are working towards the priorities outlined by members but we cannot end up in a situation where we have nobody next Tuesday, therefore we need to move on that immediately.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

There may be a need to change the order.

Chairman

Are members happy to leave it to the secretariat to work through that? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 12.32 p.m. and resumed at 3.30 p.m.