Committee on Housing and Homelessness díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 24 May 2016

Department of Social Protection

Chairman

Once again, I remind everyone about mobile telephones. Either turn them to flight mode or turn them off. They interfere with the meeting and the recording and broadcast of its proceedings.

I wish to draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence regarding a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

The opening statements submitted to the committee will be published on the committee website after this meeting, and members are reminded of the long-standing practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome the Department of Social Protection, represented by Ms Helen Faughnan, Ms Jackie Harrington, Mr. Carl O'Rourke and Rita Tighe, to this morning's meeting. The full submission from the Department of Social Protection has been made available to members and, as I said, will be on the website afterwards. I invite Ms Faughnan to summarise the submission, after which colleagues will have a number of questions for her.

Ms Helen Faughnan

I thank the committee for the opportunity to appear before it on the matter of our supplementary welfare allowance scheme, or SWA, as it is most often referred to. I would like to introduce my colleagues. On my left is Jackie Harrington, who is the principal with responsibility for SWA policy and is based in our headquarters office in Sligo. On my right is Carl O'Rourke, who is head of the Department's homeless persons unit and asylum seekers and new communities units in Dublin, based in North Cumberland Street and Gardiner Street. Also on my right is Rita Tighe, who is the area manager for the Blanchardstown Intreo centre, which operates the full range of our Department schemes, including supplementary welfare allowance.

The SWA scheme acts as a safety net within the overall social welfare system and its objective is to provide assistance to people whose means are insufficient to meet their basic needs and those of their dependants. A range of payments and supplements are administered under the SWA scheme, ranging from basic once-off weekly payments to once-off emergency payments and the rent supplement payment, a very important payment in terms of the deliberations of this committee. The scheme is administered by the Department's community welfare service, whose staff have considerable experience in engaging with people facing challenging and financially difficult times resulting from, for example, unemployment, ill health or relationship breakdown, and who may end up in homeless services. These staff are generally based in our Department's Intreo centres throughout the country and work very closely with local authorities, the homeless action teams throughout the country and other local stakeholders, including non-governmental organisations to provide the necessary financial supports to facilitate people to access accommodation.

Overall, the response to the current extremely difficult housing situation has to be multifaceted, and this level of inter-agency participation ensures greater integration between the key agencies involved in the area of homelessness and related services. The Department is also represented on the homelessness policy implementation team in the newly formed Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government to oversee the implementation of that action plan.

Fundamentally, the main cause of rising rents is a lack of supply, and the implementation of the range of actions under the Construction 2020 strategy, the social housing strategy 2020 and the most recent programme for Government will support increased housing supply. Notwithstanding this, there is an inevitable time-lag in the provision of new stock and the difficult and distressing challenges faced by people, including those in receipt of rent supplement, in maintaining suitable, affordable accommodation. All of these issues are well documented. The State is a key player in providing support to these people and is providing almost €450 million this year in respect of a third of the private rented market under rent supplement, the housing assistance payment and the rental accommodation scheme.

The accommodation needs of almost 100,000 individuals and families are supported through these three schemes.

I will now provide some background information on the rent supplement scheme and the steps being taken by the Department to support customers to maintain their homes during these difficult times. The Government has provided more than €260 million for the scheme this year. Approximately 56,800 people are in receipt of rent supplement, of which almost 4,500 were awarded the payment in the first four months of this year. The provision of support under the rent supplement scheme is a key priority for the Department. This issue is under consideration by the Cabinet committee on housing in the context of the overall Government commitments contained in the programme for a partnership Government to provide affordable, quality and accessible housing. The programme for Government includes the commitment to increase rent supplement limits. The Department is examining options to increase the limits in line with this commitment.

The Department has in place a number of targeted measures to ensure that people at risk of homelessness or loss of their tenancies continue to be supported under the rent supplement scheme at this time of further increased rents and reduced supply. We are operating an individual case management approach which is kept under constant review in the light of the vital feedback our staff receives from stakeholders, including customers, non-governmental organisations and, very importantly, Oireachtas Members. Under this approach, each tenant's circumstances are considered on a case-by-case basis, and I assure the committee that payments are being increased above prescribed limits as necessary. Staff in the community welfare service have a statutory discretionary power to award or increase a supplement for rental purposes. This flexible approach has already assisted almost 8,200 households throughout the country to retain their rented accommodation. We estimate that the average number of people receiving an uplift payment will increase to approximately 8,900 in 2016, equating to approximately 16% of the average number of people receiving rent supplement. These uplifts will cost approximately €23 million this year.

In addition, the Department, in conjunction with Threshold, operates a special protocol as part of the tenancy protection service in Dublin, Cork and the commuter counties of Kildare, Meath and Wicklow, to where it was recently extended. It will go live in Galway city over the next two weeks. The level of housing supply is particularly acute in all of these areas. The primary objective of the tenancy protection service is to provide advice and support to householders experiencing housing problems and at risk of homelessness. The key add-on for this service is these people advocate on behalf of the clients. Almost half of the calls - approximately 4,000 - to the Threshold service were resolved without referral to the Department for financial support. The protocol ensures a speedy intervention to ensure that our customers who are at imminent risk of losing their tenancy will get immediate financial assistance. The programme for a partnership Government has identified expanding the protocol nationwide. The Department of Social Protection will work actively with Threshold and the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government to ensure the extension happens as speedily as required.

The strategic policy direction of the Department is to return rent supplement to its original purpose of being a short-term income support scheme, mainly for people who are unemployed. To achieve this, the Government has two initiatives to deal with long-term reliance on rent supplement. These are the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, which has been in operation since 2004 and the more recent housing assistance payment, HAP, which started in 2014. These are key pillars of the social housing strategy and the Pathways to Work programme. Under HAP, responsibility for the provision of rental assistance to those with a long-term housing need is transferring to local authorities. The key benefit of HAP with regard to Pathways to Work is that it will ensure households which find full-time employment can retain their rented accommodation. HAP is operational in 19 of the 31 local authority areas, and a homeless project operates in the four Dublin local authority areas. Almost 9,580 people are in receipt of HAP, with more than one third of them having transferred directly from the rent supplement scheme.

I will mention two further supports under the supplementary welfare allowance scheme, the first of which is the exceptional needs payment. Under it, we can provide rent deposits or rent in advance to vulnerable people who are on low incomes and rely on the private rental market. To the end of this April, 750 rent deposit or rent-in-advance payments had been made at a cost of almost €465,000. The second support is the humanitarian assistance scheme, under which 540 households that were badly affected by the flooding and bad weather conditions of last winter have been supported in restoring their homes to a habitable condition at a cost of €1.1 million.

The Department recognises that homelessness is one of the most visible and distressing signs of the social impact of the crisis. The Department continues to take specific actions to address the problems. We will examine the best options for increasing the rent supplement limits, which, with the new rent certainty measures in place, will give greater certainty to tenants. Our community welfare service will continue the targeted and flexible interventions in respect of increased rent payments. We will continue to support vulnerable prospective tenants with the payment of rent deposits and rent in advance. We will continue working with Threshold to support the tenancy protection service and its proposed extension nationwide. We continue to examine ways of communicating with people who are at risk in order to make them aware of the available supports. The Department is monitoring the supports that are in place to ensure that the appropriate response can continue being provided. Committee members have a vital role in this regard and I urge them to advise people who are experiencing increased rents or people they are aware of who are making top-up payments to contact our offices or Threshold, as we can support them. Sometimes, this key message is not getting out to the most vulnerable.

I trust that my presentation has been of assistance to the committee. I remind members that, in terms of communication, we have key posters that are on view in social welfare offices, post offices and Money Advice & Budgeting Service, MABS, offices. We have circulated them to Oireachtas Members but will re-issue them in light of the newly formed Government. We ask that Members display them in constituency offices and so on and we will e-mail copies to the committee members.

Chairman

I thank Ms Faughnan for her opening statement. Since a number of colleagues have indicated, we will take a few questions together and the witnesses can decide who among them is most suited to answer the individual questions.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I thank Ms Faughnan for her presentation. I have a query on the housing assistance payment, HAP, scheme. Most people in receipt of rent supplement are being put onto the HAP scheme regardless of whether they want that. They are getting letters from the Department of Social Protection to the effect that they must sign up for HAP or else their payments will be cancelled.

Ms Faughnan referred to people of whom we were aware who might be making top-up payments on their rent supplement. Let us be fair - every single person in receipt of rent supplement is paying a top-up. This is probably something that is not discussed publicly but I have not encountered anyone in receipt of rent supplement who is not paying a top-up. This is because the limits are too low.

Ms Faughnan referred to extending the protocol for additional payments to Dublin's commuter counties, which is welcome, and Galway city but she did not mention Limerick city. I have always been perplexed by this, as there is a major problem in Limerick, particularly in terms of social housing and private renting in that sector. If the witnesses do not have the figures, they might send them to us later, but how many people per county who are on the HAP scheme have received top-ups? Some councils claim that they cannot make top-ups. Nineteen councils are administering the HAP scheme for the Department, four Dublin councils do it through the homeless services and Limerick council operates all of it, but the perception is that the HAP limit has been set and cannot be increased even though I understand that it can be.

Deputy Frank O'Rourke

I than Ms Faughnan for her presentation. I acknowledge her staff and compliment them on the great work done by the rents unit under extreme pressure and in difficult times, with everyone shouting at them from time to time to hurry up.

In terms of engagement, my office is very complimentary of the staff of the rents unit and I would like to put that on the record. Following on from that, I would welcome Ms Faughnan's view on resources within the rents unit in the context of the current crisis in the housing area and the lengthy waiting time for approvals for rent supplement, which as I said is no fault of staff of the rents unit but can result negatively in terms of securing properties from landlords.

I would also welcome her view on the application process. Notwithstanding that there must be a proper and transparent application process in place, as stated earlier, this process is extremely lengthy in the context of the many documents to be prepared. Often when a person is accepted onto the housing list and then finds a property in respect of which the landlord is prepared to accept rent supplement, the individual is at that point required to submit all of the relevant documentation to the rents unit. However, during the time taken to process the documentation and the person securing agreement on the payment, the landlord has often received numerous other offers and he or she does not secure the property. Are there any interim measures that could be put in place to prevent this happening, such as: perhaps, allowing the person space to get the paperwork together before finding a property; or the agreement would be reviewed in cases where a property is not found within a particular timeframe? What can be done to speed up that process?

I would also like some clarification on the role of the community welfare officer in respect of emergency payments and deposits. If I understood her correctly, Ms Faughnan said that community welfare officers have the power to assist in this regard. Based on my personal experience, and having talked about this issue with colleagues, that is not the case. Community welfare officers are refusing to pay deposits to help people in emergency situations. A few months ago I secured a property on behalf of a constituent, following which I contacted the community welfare officer requesting payment of a deposit only to be told that it was not within the remit or jurisdiction of that community welfare officer to do so. We did not succeed in securing the property. I have made similar requests of the community welfare officer since then in response to which the answer was the same. I would like the role of the community welfare officer clarified for the record and also, if there is a misunderstanding in this regard, that a message in that regard be sent to all community welfare officers.

Like other Deputies, I would welcome Ms Faughnan's view on the housing assistance payment, HAP, and the rental accommodation scheme, RAS. When I raised the following issue during earlier meetings I did not get a clear answer to it, perhaps because it was not within the remit of the person concerned. The HAP scheme is good but there is a discrepancy in relation to it because it is purely tailored to people's needs. In other words, a person who needs a two bedroom unit but owing to the current scarcity of supply can only secure a three-bedroom unit, will only receive payment under the HAP scheme for a two-bedroom unit, which leaves the person having to pay a huge top-up. As stated by Deputy Quinlivan, the reality is that people are paying top-ups. If they were not, the current crisis would be greater. Given the current housing crisis, is it possible to provide for flexibility under HAP to the effect that in a situation where a person can only secure a two-bedroom unit despite that all he or she requires is a one-bedroom unit, that person will receive payment in the short to medium term?

I would also like Ms Faughnan to comment on the rental accommodation scheme. A constituent of mine who was previously homeless is now living in a two-bedroom unit in respect of which she receives the housing assistance payment. While the landlord is willing to participate in RAS to help her, she is not eligible under that scheme because she is over-accommodated. However, we are unable to secure a one-bedroom unit for her, which means she will be put out on the street. This week she will be made homeless if there is no flexibility given by the Department to the local authority to deal with this issue. In addition, is there any flexibility around the requirement for a person to have been in receipt of rent supplement for 18 months prior to his or her being eligible for participation in RAS? In another case with which I am dealing, we have secured a property but the landlord only wants RAS tenants. However, the person concerned is not eligible for it because she has not previously been in receipt of rent supplement. I would welcome Ms Faughnan's views on those issues.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I echo the sentiments expressed by my colleague in regard to Department of Social Protection. I have always found its staff to be 100% committed to working for people, particularly in terms of their responses to representations which we make on behalf of people who find it difficult to access information.

When one rings the staff, they are always focused on what the entitlements are. They are first class.

I have two questions. One was raised with me by somebody who works in a county council and has many dealings with people who are homeless. I have mentioned the view he put to me previously in the committee but I am anxious to hear the witness's view on it. He told me that, at present, one is not allowed to support a family in their family home, for example, a son or daughter who might wish to stay in the family home notwithstanding the fact that they may have a child or family. They must leave the home to get financial support. The point he made to me is that if there is no accommodation for people, which there is not, and there is space in the family home, the regulations could be changed for a limited, defined period of time. In other words, they could pay a rent at home. His point is that a fortune is being paid for bed and breakfast accommodation, hostels and so forth, which are not appropriate, whereas there could be a payment in respect of the family home, provided the room was available, as an exceptional measure. That is the point. Could they be paid a rent allowance? Obviously, it would not be a commercial rent but it would help to ease the burden as the family might be able stay at home. I realise there are all sorts of social problems which I will not detail now - all of us are aware of them - as to why that should not, and could not, happen but there are instances where it might and should happen. That is the case he made to me. There is a lot of space in homes that could be used and it might make a difference.

The other issue is the room to rent scheme, although I realise it is not the Department's responsibility. Under that scheme, people living in housing in which there is significant accommodation available can rent it to other people. It is the same principle, essentially, just that it would include direct family members. Under the room to rent scheme, I could have my nephew or niece living with me, take rent from him or her and the Department could pay him or her the rent but I cannot do that with my son or daughter in an exceptional case. That does not make sense if people are sleeping rough on the streets of Dublin or they are in inappropriate hostels with children sleeping on air beds in staff rooms. Is that worth considering?

The witness mentioned that the tenancy protection service is being extended. What is the situation in County Louth? She did not mention it in her opening statement. I submitted a parliamentary question on that while she was talking. That brings me to another problem. My office in inundated with people who are homeless and trying to get accommodation. That is the case with every Deputy. The problem is that local authorities do not have the capacity to advise, listen to or help these families in the way they did traditionally. As there are thousands of people on the list rather than hundreds, they are inclined to tell people to go away and come back in five years' time. Huge problems are building up. As the witness said, the tenancy protection scheme is, and I liked the words she used, an advocate for the applicant. We really need advocates for these people with officialdom and the local authority. People might not necessarily be able to articulate their best case, perhaps because of the difficulties they might have, medical problems, social problems or anti-social issues. If that is the case, it is hugely significant and important. Will the witness describe it a little more and what would be required to extend it throughout the country or to areas where there are other significant housing problems?

Ms Helen Faughnan

I will start with Deputy Quinlivan's questions. I wish to put on the record the excellent work Limerick City and County Council has done in this area. It was the initial area for the housing assistance payment and it is now the hub for all the payments around the country. It has done excellent work in that regard. The Deputy asked why the protocol is not being extended.

In conjunction with our colleagues in the new Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government and Threshold, we will look at what areas of the country most need the protocol to be put in place. The housing assistance payment scheme is currently working extremely well in Limerick. More than 1,200 people are receiving the payment in Limerick. The need for increased rent supplement payments is very low there. Approximately seven payments are being made there at present.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

There are seven payments being made. Is that what Ms Faughnan has said?

Ms Helen Faughnan

Yes.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

Ms Faughnan has said that the housing assistance payment scheme works really well in Limerick. It works well in the rural parts of Limerick but it does not really work well in the city.

Ms Helen Faughnan

Okay.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

The payment is the same in both parts of Limerick. That is why we have a massive problem.

Ms Helen Faughnan

Okay.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I assume that is the problem in other areas as well.

Ms Helen Faughnan

I am on the housing assistance payment implementation board, so I can take that issue back and feed it into the discussion on top-up issues.

Deputy Quinlivan also asked about letters. Rent supplement was originally designed as a short-term income support. The idea was that it would be provided to someone living in rented accommodation who lost his or her job and needed support for a couple of weeks or a month until he or she got back into employment. That went out the window during the recession. The big difficulty with the rent supplement scheme is that there are barriers to employment in it. Under the housing assistance payment scheme, a person's payments are adjusted when he or she takes up part-time or full-time work and decisions on differential rent are made on the basis of need. We have had success in supporting people back into work under that scheme. For example, 120 households moved from unemployment into part-time work, more than 90 households moved from unemployment to full-time work and ten households moved from part-time to full-time employment without any stopping or starting of their accommodation issues, which are separate. We are focusing on people who have been receiving rent supplement for more than 18 months. We are engaging with our customers. We are not go to force them out if their landlords do not want to go into the housing assistance payment process. We want to engage with people by supporting and encouraging them. It is in their best interests to be supported into employment.

I was also asked about the whole area of top-ups. Part of the difficulty is that people will not come into us to declare their top-ups. My key message today is to reassure people not to be scared of coming in and talking to our staff. If people are struggling to meet top-up payments, we can increase their rent supplement payments to cover that. We are not in a position to do so if the discrepancy is wildly exorbitant but that is not the case with most of these people. We can assist with reasonable payments. People need to come in and talk to us. They will not be penalised in any way. There is evidence to show that those who have come in have been accommodated. As I have said, when we consider the extension of the protocol, we will work with the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government and Threshold in looking at the critical areas, such as counties where there have been many increased payments or where the housing assistance payment scheme is not in play.

I thank Deputies O'Rourke and O'Dowd for their compliments. The staff of the Department have a challenging job in trying to meet the needs of customers who are often distressed when they come in. We try our best to put people at ease and to meet their needs as speedily as possible. We keep the Department's resources under continuous review to see where we need to act in the best interests of our customers. We have put a great deal of resources into our case officer work. We are engaging with unemployed people to try to support them to get into work, in the first instance, or otherwise into education or training. We hope that if we can help people to get back into work, they will be able to be self-sufficient in meeting their accommodation costs. We have cross-trained many staff. The new cadre of staff who are trained as community welfare officers can be of assistance when there is a particular need. This happened during the flooding crisis, which affected many counties over Christmas and into January. Staff were available on the ground to meet people, etc., and cater for their requirements. We have streamlined the application process to quite a degree. The application form used to have many elements but we have streamlined it to a good degree.

We try to engage with our clients to support them in processing their applications. It is complicated in so far as this involves a two-stage process and the details of the landlord are required in addition to those of the tenant. The Dublin Regional Homeless Executive, with the non-governmental organisations, particularly Focus Ireland and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, among others, operates a front-line advocacy service. It is engaging with this issue by putting in place rent deposits to secure accommodation where the position regarding the latter is tight.

To clarify the issue raised regarding Celbridge and County Kildare, a significant number of uplifts - 384 - have been paid in County Kildare for people in receipt of rent supplement. I am a little surprised that somebody would not offer an exceptional needs payment to make a rent deposit. Perhaps the Deputy will give me information on specific cases after the meeting and I will follow up on the matter. We gave clear instructions to our staff on two occasions last year to be as flexible as possible during the homelessness crisis. In general, community welfare staff do not need our blessing in that respect as they view this as a duty of care to their customers. However, with almost 7,000 staff in the Department, there may be instances where staff do not react in the correct manner. If there are particular cases, I ask members to bring them to our attention and we will address them.

I confirm that exceptional needs payments are being made. Last year, for example, the Department made more than 2,500 exceptional needs payments for rent deposits and rent in advance, at a cost of €1.48 million. The average payment was approximately €590 and a similar figure was paid out the previous year, as noted in the opening statement. If members believe these payments are not being made in particular areas, especially where housing supply is acute, I ask them to inform the Department.

Deputy Frank O'Rourke

Kildare North is definitely one area where there is an issue with housing supply and homelessness. I assume the directive to which Ms Faughnan referred has been issued to all community welfare officers.

Ms Helen Faughnan

Yes, that is correct.

Deputy Frank O'Rourke

While we can discuss the issue in more detail after the meeting, these payments are not being made in Kildare North.

Ms Helen Faughnan

There are particular issues around Kildare, Celbridge, etc., because we are competing with some of the large businesses and companies located in the Kildare area, as well as the university in Maynooth. All of these are causing issues in terms of supply, as workers are competing for the same properties.

Policy responsibility for the HAP and rental accommodation scheme lies with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. Flexibility is available under the HAP scheme, however. For example, in Kildare, the scheme is being operated using the limits applied in Dublin, with an additional payment of up to 20% available. Flexibility is being applied in respect of HAP limits, particularly in areas of acute supply. South Dublin County Council, for example, is operating with flexibility of up to 20%.

Under the homeless HAP pilot schemes operating in the four Dublin areas, flexibility is provided to increase the payment by up to 50% above the limit to try to secure accommodation. While the two Departments and local authorities are working very much hand in hand to try to ensure flexibility is available, the big issue we are coming up against is supply.

Deputy Frank O'Rourke

I raised the issue of over-accommodation, citing the example of two and one bedroom properties. Is there flexibility in the HAP scheme to assist families in such circumstances given that they must contribute a major top-up to their rent if they are to emerge from homelessness? Can that issue be addressed?

Ms Helen Faughnan

I will have to raise the issue with my colleagues to confirm the position. As I understand it, however, the local authorities are doing their best to operate the HAP scheme as best they can. Over-accommodation, as the Deputy describes it, is always a risk. Whether the accommodation consists of two or three bedrooms-----

Deputy Frank O'Rourke

It is definitely one and two bedroom accommodation.

Ms Helen Faughnan

As I indicated, I will raise the issue with my colleagues in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. If rent supplement was involved and no other accommodation was available, we would generally be pragmatic and try to meet the need.

When supply is tight, putting a family into three-bed accommodation when it needs only a one-bed or a two-bed, precludes a three-bed family from sourcing that accommodation. It is a case of trying to balance all the needs which is not easy in the circumstances.

Chairman

Deputy O'Dowd asked questions on accommodation for families.

Ms Helen Faughnan

In response to Deputy O'Dowd, when looking at the issue of the family home and if there is accommodation in the family home, given that Ireland is facing a homelessness crisis, there has to be social responsibility for family members. If they have accommodation available to them in a family home situation my personal view is that they should provide accommodation for their son or daughter as necessary. The room to rent scheme and the tax benefits attached are a valuable incentive in this area for non-family members. Ideally, families should try to accommodate them and generally we find that is happening. It is often the case that when somebody loses accommodation, he or she is returning to family members but often accommodation can be very tight. At the moment we would not be looking to pay a supplement.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I acknowledge the point made by Ms Faughnan. Is it the case that by staying in the family home there is an additional cost on the family or on the owner-occupier for heating and other issues that would not otherwise arise? This point was made to be me by a homelessness officer.

Ms Helen Faughnan

If one has a single person in receipt of a social welfare payment, he or she has to pay €30 per week as the personal contribution towards the rent supplement. That €30 could go towards offsetting the costs of staying in the house plus some contribution from their social welfare payment. In their private rented accommodation they would be expected to meet the cost of their heating, lighting and cooking facilities. There would be scope within their social welfare payment plus the €30 or, if a couple, €40 payment per week they would have to pay towards their rent. We would expect them to contribute to the family home.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

As the point was made by my homelessness officer on that issue I will take the advice.

Ms Helen Faughnan

In regard to the situation in County Louth, HAP, the housing assistance payment, is working extremely well where there are more than 800 tenancies. Some 130 rent supplement uplifts are payable in the Louth area. It is working well.

The Deputy mentioned the advocacy role. Threshold, which is doing excellent work, receives about 8,000 calls. Overall, at least 6,000 households throughout the country have been supported by the community welfare service. Our staff feel they have an advocacy role. For example, I spoke to Ms Rita Tighe, who is the area manager for the Blanchardstown Intreo centre, before coming into the meeting. She mentioned that the centre has engaged with the local community and some of the teachers in the local schools where it is aware that parents are in difficulty. At times the centre has got in touch directly with landlords. The Department definitely feels it has an advocacy role in this space. Our citizen information centres throughout the country and MABS also have a supportive role in this area and should not be forgotten.

Chairman

I thank Ms Faughnan for her responses. I ask Mr. O'Rourke to forward his response to the committee on the issue of people being classed as technically over-accommodated, particularly a single person being housed in a two-bed where one-bed is not available in the RAS and HAP schemes. I call Deputy Funchion.

Deputy Kathleen Funchion

I have a difficulty because I do not see a uniform approach. For example, in Kilkenny, it is one community welfare officer versus another. It seems to depend on who one meets and it depends on the day.

I have never heard about the offer of rent in advance until today.

There is also an issue with people moving from emergency accommodation into accommodation under the RAS or HAP scheme. While the responsibility is on the landlord to provide furniture, etc., moving into such accommodation is very expensive because tenants do not have cooking or washing equipment and receive no payment from community welfare officers when they finally find a property under the RAS or HAP scheme. A girl who came to talk to me about her situation told me how for a long time after her rent had been raised, she had made the extra payment and found herself struggling. When she went to the community welfare office to explain her situation, she was told she was engaging in fraud because she was paying an amount above the rent allowance limit. I hate to be negative, but it is my experience that community welfare officers do not always show understanding and are not always helpful to those who find themselves in difficult circumstances, unless they bring with them an elected representative or somebody from Focus to the community welfare office. They should not have to rely on doing this. They should be able to visit the community welfare office and represent themselves.

On the training given or the notices issued to community welfare officers, there is obviously a major issue with the communication of the message. Unfortunately, the overall experience of persons in difficult circumstances in going to community welfare offices is negative. This means that they will not return on the issue.

May we have some contact name or information on whom to contact when these situations arise? I know that the Department will give us the facts and figures for what payments have been made, but members of the committee would agree that their experience is that tenants are not given deposits or top-up payments. When we come across such cases, whom can we contact for information? There is a breakdown in the process because based on what departmental officials are saying and our experience - it is certainly mine - there are two completely different stories.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

I want to ask about the rent supplement and top-up payments and supports the Department gives. When representatives of Threshold appeared before the committee earlier today, we were told that rent supplement had remained at 2013 levels, but it had been cut by 28% prior to then. In two years rents in Dublin West have risen by €341 per month. Therefore, in my area rent supplement lags behind by approximately €400 per month. Rents are at bubble levels, but rent supplement has decreased. Given these figures, what responsibility does the Department have for dealing with the housing and homelessness crisis? It has been advising the Minister to keep rent supplement at its current level. Last year it conducted a review and stated rent supplement should be left at the same level, despite every homeless agency telling it that there was a need for an increase. Does it have any responsibility for the fact that people who are swimming against the tide are becoming homeless because they cannot find properties or afford to stay in them? Has it been using the rent supplement scheme as a form of rent control on the backs of the poorest people in the State, while knowing full well that rents have risen?

Focus Ireland has stated the making of top-up payments is universal, yet the former Minister, Deputy Joan Burton, has said there is "no evidence" that this practice is widespread. Is this the only form of social welfare fraud about which the Department is in denial? Is this because the people affected have to defraud themselves and the Department does not care. It has used the word "fraud" to describe what people are doing in paying above the rent supplement limit and breaking its rules. However, it does not care because they are only defrauding themselves. It is turning a blind eye to this practice.

We all know that lone parents are particularly vulnerable right now because of all the cuts they have had to endure. If people are paying up to €100 a month plus their €30 a week, what level of poverty do the witnesses think that is creating?

My third question concerns the general supports for those who living through this housing crisis. In 2014 an EU survey found that 54% of people renting in Ireland were living in deprivation. The figure for owner-occupiers in the same position was approximately 5%. We know where the poverty lies; it lies in the private rented sector because of the type of rents people are paying. Do the witnesses think there is an acceptable level of support and social protection for those people?

Exceptional needs payments for people in emergency accommodation are mentioned on page 4 of the witnesses' presentation. I have seen far too many of those people in Dublin West in recent times. Assisting people with travel costs is given as an example of such payments in the presentation. However, I put a parliamentary question to the Department of Education and Skills in April for which the reply was that "no assessment has been conducted on the school transport needs of homeless children." Was that reply incorrect? The witnesses are telling us they are giving money to people who are travelling the length and breadth of Dublin in many cases. No hotels take people in Dublin 15, for example, so they are travelling two bus journeys away. I cannot think of anyone who has told me about getting any help.

Is there any extra allowance for food for families living in hotels, given that they have no cooking facilities and have to go out and buy food continually? Given that there is a housing and homelessness crisis, I see no extra support being provided to families. The Department has set its face against increasing the rent allowance, which has made the situation much worse.

Deputy Michael Harty

On the rent deposit and rent advance scheme, Mr. Bob Jordan from Threshold said this morning that people in receipt of rent supplement are at a disadvantage in the private rented sector when they are competing for accommodation against others who have a deposit and a month's rent in their hands. How easy is it for people to get rent deposit and rent in advance so they can compete on an equal footing?

Ms Helen Faughnan

In response to Deputy Funchion's comments, I am disappointed with the views on the service that people in Kilkenny are receiving. While there are issues, there are approximately 128 people in receipt of increased payments in the country. We try to ensure that there is a consistent approach throughout the country, although each officer would have discretion in his or her own right. I suppose the officers are balancing the need of the customer with a need to ensure that there is value for money for the taxpayer, who is paying for these various supplements. I will take the matter up with the divisional manager in that area in the context of looking at the position with regard to some of the payments.

In terms of point of contact, the Department operates a special enquiry line for Deputies with direct contact names, e-mail and phone numbers for every area of the Department, including for each division. We will be reissuing the details for new Deputies shortly. If there is a particular issue, it is best for the Deputy to raise it through that forum in the first instance.

It depends as well on the needs of the actual person. Some people do have a deposit available to them. Others may not, particularly if they are coming from emergency accommodation. Generally, what would happen in those circumstances is that the local community welfare officer would be part of the homeless action team in the area. The team would have case conferences to see what people's needs are and to try to make whatever payments are necessary. Again, if the Deputy is aware of particular cases, we might have a conversation about them offline.

A question was raised about people going to RAS or HAP in respect of furniture.

Generally, it is the responsibility of the landlord.

Deputy Kathleen Funchion

My question was not related to furniture. What is often said to people who are living in very overcrowded family circumstances or in emergency accommodation by the community welfare officers is that they should have been in a position to save. They might not be responsible for the furniture in the house but obviously if people are in emergency accommodation, they will have had a lot of extra expenses for a long time. There is also a cost incurred when they are moving and they are not getting any assistance at all. I know there is no responsibility on the part of the tenant or the community welfare officer to pay for furniture under the RAS or HAP scheme but it is important to acknowledge and recognise that those people will have many additional expenses in moving. There does not seem to be any flexibility around that. Telling people that they should have been in a position to save is not good enough.

Ms Helen Faughnan

Ideally, each case should be assessed on its merits to assess the circumstances of the person coming from emergency accommodation. I am meeting all of our divisional managers tomorrow and I will raise the concerns of the committee in order that the divisional managers engage with the staff, as they do, to assess the issues that are coming up. We can raise these issues.

Over the years, we were trying to protect the State, in a way, and were ensuring that landlords declared the correct payments that were supported through the rent supplement scheme. Top-ups were illegal in that case. It is the same point that Deputy Coppinger was making. If the landlord and the tenant are in collusion and it is a cash payment, it is very difficult for us to be aware of it. The clear instructions that have gone out to staff is that we want to support people. We do not want them to be topping up where it is a vital accommodation need. I appreciate that tenants may be afraid or nervous in this situation and we need to try to communicate better with some of our clients. I will circulate the contact list to the members of the committee in the first instance as well as to the other Oireachtas Members so they will have an individual point of contact in the various divisions to enable them to raise issues of concern.

In response to Deputy Coppinger's comments on the review of the rent supplement limits, I am responsible for the policy approach in that area. The main finding of our previous rent review, which we carried out early last year, was that the lack of available supply is the biggest problem. It remains the key issue of the homelessness crisis. This relates to supply across the market in general and not just in the private rental sector. The number of private rental properties is at its lowest level ever. Increasing rent limits will provide a small amount of accommodation but that is not going to solve the issues. That is why we agreed to the special protocol with Threshold last year and in mid-2014. At that time, we felt that a targeted approach was far more beneficial in terms of supporting the individual customers as well as targeting the resources that were available to where they were most at need. The big changes that have happened in terms of the rent certainty are the amendments to the Residential Tenancies Act. Rents can now only be reviewed once every two years as opposed to once every year. We will be reviewing the rent limits in that. On average, we are paying an extra 120 rental uplifts on a weekly basis. Approximately 23% of Dublin recipients are already receiving an uplift payment. In effect, the current limits are no longer sustainable. We will looking at how best to implement the commitment in the new programme for Government to spread the increase to the greatest effect.

The measures our Department can take in a housing crisis mainly relate to the financial supports that can be put in place.

The Deputy asked about the various payments that are being made in Dublin west. Uplifts are being made in the Dublin west area, at an average of approximately €850 with a range of between €650 and €1,100. Ms Tighe will give some examples of what is happening on the ground.

Ms Rita Tighe

I am responsible for the rent supplement scheme in Dublin 15, where there are approximately 3,000 live rent claims. We are going above the limits in most cases for anybody who comes to us with a proposed increase from a landlord. On average, we are going approximately €250 above the limits. We query it when it becomes unreasonable and we might make a call to the landlord or the tenants may go to Threshold and ask it to advocate on their behalf. In general, however, we go above the limits under the article 38 provison for anybody who comes to us with a problem because the last thing we want is for them to be homeless. We do not believe the rent limits per se are causing the homeless crisis, rather it is down to the fact that there are so many huge increases.

I am sure people are making top-ups but we do not want people to do that because we are going above the limits in any event, so top-ups are no longer an issue. A lot of people were afraid to come to us because they were paying top-ups and feared that we would not deal with them but that is not the case. We are trying to let people in Dublin 15 know that we will talk to anybody, no matter what their issues, ranging from arrears they have built up to paying top-ups about which they might not want to tell us. We will discuss anything with them to prevent homelessness.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

The Department is still hundreds of euro behind what is the going rate. I do not agree with having to do this but I wish to point that out. The only effect is that landlords will not take people. We know a law was passed but landlords vet people when they get in the queue and ask them if they are on rent supplement. All that happens is that landlords will not take people on rent supplement because they can get more rent from other people, which puts people in the position of not being able to find accommodation.

Ms Rita Tighe

I said that €250 was the bottom line but the reality is that we are going to the market value and to the asking price in a lot of cases, especially with big families or where there are medical issues because they can be paid under the article 38 provision in any event. We are going to €1,300 and €1,400. In general, we do not turn anybody away to become homeless. We have been very supportive to people in Dublin 15 who come to us for payments for emergency accommodation. If their source accommodation was in Dublin and they end up in a hotel on the outskirts and have to go to and from schools or their community, then we help them out with that.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Does that apply to food?

Ms Rita Tighe

I do not think so but we do give support for travel.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Does Ms Tighe accept that people who are homeless or living in a hotel pay a lot more for food?

Ms Rita Tighe

I am not sure they are paying any more than they normally would.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

If one cannot cook one has to eat out all the time.

Ms Rita Tighe

Okay, but we have not had applications for that type of payment.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

That would be because there is no payment for it.

Ms Helen Faughnan

On the question of food, etc., flexibility exists in the area of exceptional needs payments for an unforeseen expense, sometimes depending on the number of children in the emergency accommodation. It has not arisen however.

The Deputy asked about the Department of Education and Skills on the possibility of transport.

Often the supplementary welfare allowance scheme has been a safety net not only for our Department's clients but for those of some other Departments where they have not been able to meet the cost involved in the issues of concern. In individual cases of transport, the Department of Education and Skills may not have flexibility in its response. There have not only been instances in the areas Ms Rita Tighe manages but we have had instances of other cases where people have been provided with transport costs because they have been an exceptional-----

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

How many?

Ms Helen Faughnan

I do not have that figure to hand.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Ms. Faughnan might check that figure and forward it to us.

Ms Helen Faughnan

I will check if we have something on it at that level.

The Deputy mentioned rent reviews. Our two subsequent reviews prior to 2013, in 2010 and 2011, found that the rental values had stabilised at or near the maximum rent limits that were in payment at the time and that provided scope to the Department to make savings. We had the troika programme in place at that time and Ireland had to come forward with savings. Approximately €44 million was cut from the rent supplement budget but there was scope there because the rental supplement and the market levels had stabilised at or around the rent limits we had in place. When it came to the review in mid-2013, we were trying to benchmark our limits at around the 35th percentile of housing stock that was available. At that time the Department invested €7 million because we needed to bring the limits back up to try to maintain that limit but since then the market rents have escalated and now the increase is approximately 10%. The available supply is now the lowest ever. There was no question of trying to match them. We are trying to retain the households that are being supported in private rented accommodation in their accommodation, so we are no longer market leaders. The targeted response has assisted an extra 8,000 people and we plan to spend approximately €24 million on that support this year.

Chairman

Ms Faughnan might deal with Deputy Harty's questions.

Ms Helen Faughnan

Deputy Harty raised the issue of rent deposits. This depends on the individual circumstances of the case. In Dublin the Dublin Regional Homeless Executive is working through the non-governmental organisations. Those are the advocates paid by the State such as Focus Ireland and so on. They have contracts with the Dublin Regional Homeless Executive to source and support people trying to access accommodation. That mechanism is working very easily in terms of putting the rent deposit and the rent in place in advance in particular cases of need together with a pool of supports around the client. I would not have knowledge of how easy it is to do that in various parts of the country. We will ask our community welfare staff to support people as much as possible if that is an issue. Deputy Funchion spoke about this also and I will take that matter up with my divisional managers to encourage them in terms of the engagement with our clients to try to make the mechanism as easy as possible. If the Deputy has particular instances she could bring to my attention, I would appreciate that.

Chairman

I remind colleagues that we will resume proceedings at 2 p.m. and a number of speakers wish to contribute. I ask members to be direct in their questions and we will try to conclude in order that we can continue at 2 p.m. The next speaker is Deputy Brendan Ryan.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

I thank Ms Faughnan and her team for their assistance with our work. Representatives of Threshold, who appeared before the committee just prior to the Department officials, came up with a range of administrative reform measures, which they said would not cost much but would increase the confidence of landlords in the rent supplement scheme. Ms Faughnan might briefly consider them now and while I do not expect her to give me her view on them I would appreciate if she would come back to us later.

These are to provide for the automatic payment of RS directly to landlords; ensure that RS is paid in advance, rather than in arrears; introduce a pre-approval mechanism for RS claimants who have been assessed by the local authorities; review the documentation requirements for RS and provide for direct submission of confidential documents by landlords to community welfare service staff; restore the face-to-face applications facility in local social welfare offices; ensure that eligible RS recipients are afforded an exceptional needs payment where they require a sum of money for a security deposit; ensure that RS claimants are given at least 28 days' notice of the suspension or termination of RS payments; and place greater reliance on the local review process in respect of RS decisions, afford priority to appeals relating to RS claims, and ensure that RS continues to be paid while an appeal is pending. There is a range of items on which we would like a direct response, if the assistant secretary could provide it, although not necessarily today.

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

I echo what has been said by other members. When we were discussing the programme for Government, there were 15 Independent Deputies in the room and, no different from those here, we all raised the same questions that have been put to the Department today.

Despite Ms Faughnan's advice to the committee that these measures are in place, they are not. As my colleagues have stated, it is the case that throughout the country deposits from the community welfare officer are not available. I could give Ms Faughnan a list of persons who have been with community welfare officers and who have been sent to hospitals, sent back to the local authority and then sent, in the finish, to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul for help. It is wrong for us to leave here thinking what was said is the case on the ground.

On top-up payments, it is true that top-up payment clients are told they are committing fraud. They are told they are breaking the law while the landlord gets clear. He or she does not want such a tenant in the place for fear of word of it getting back to the local authority or the Department.

Flooding is an issue with which I am familiar in my constituency. It is almost a joke how people access funding when their home is flooded. The paperwork, the questions they are asked and what they must deal with in the application process is unfair. If an area is prone to flooding and the local authority or the Government is putting in special funding, such as for flood defences, there should be a mechanism found so that if it happens again a certain amount of money is provided to those people without delay. As it is, delays in the process are having a detrimental effect on families. We all talk about mental illness. It drives people over the edge with the result that they become frustrated with the system.

On the role of community welfare officers, there is not any funding available. Ms Faughnan spoke a lot today about Dublin and Dublin 4. Homelessness is an issue outside of Dublin. It is not only occurring in the same areas. It is a big issue in other areas throughout the country and it is something that we should look at.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I am pleased to see my friends from the Department of Social Protection before the committee and I thank them for their work.

There are a couple of matters that need to be addressed. As we have stated on many occasions, the Department of Social Protection was an emergency housing support. It was not a housing body and it should never become a housing body. A former Minister in that area, Ms Mary Coughlan, brought that to the attention of the Houses of the Oireachtas a few years ago. What became an emergency support is now an ongoing support and the Department of Social Protection should not be involved in that aspect as it falls to another Department.

The points raised by a number of members are valid. In terms of up-front payments, one month's rent in advance and exceptional needs payment for the person about to rent a house on rent support and on the HAP, it is difficult to access support in some cases. For want of a better description, it is patchy. In some cases, depending on who is dealing with it, it works well. In other cases, it does not and one might well be waiting for some considerable time. I am aware there is discretion in that regard, although it does not always apply.

The other part is the top-up for the HAP. The HAP was never intended to have a top-up. It was supposed to be the answer in terms of bringing it back to the responsibility of the local authorities. If we have a system whereby the tenant is supposed to pay a top-up on top of that again, it seems to defeat the purpose of the exercise. The question that arises is, at what stage do we say that we can no longer support the increase because to do so would mean we are contributing to inflation in the market?

I would like to know the degree to which the number of exceptional needs payments have increased or decreased over the past two or three years. What is the total number of families now reliant on rent support, support through the HAP or one of the various supports, be it related to rent support, the RAS or otherwise?

The total number gives an idea of the extent to which we need to address this issue.

I have covered the exceptional needs payments.

Where a case has been determined, the appeals system is patchy. It takes considerable time to activate it and get a result from it. This affects a household that might have been reliant on rent support and, possibly, carer's allowance, for example. If, for one reason or another, a payment is stopped, it takes quite a while to address the issue and a great deal of hardship is caused to the individual before he or she can gain access to the support system again.

The last point I wish to make concerns procedures. The system was working quite well for a while, depending on the individuals who dealt with cases where rent had increased within reason and where it was found necessary to make an increase on foot of documentary evidence. A supplementary welfare application form is 29, 30 or 40 pages in length. When I see a case and especially if I see five or six in the one day, I get chilblains. There should be a simplified system which would speed up the process and cost the Department less. Less time would also be spent in making assessments. Every time I see a voluminous application form I know straightaway that it will require a huge input in terms of the labour required in assessing it.

Chairman

A considerable number of issues were raised. Time is somewhat against us. Deputy Brendan Ryan set out a series of questions. If Ms Faughnan has not got them, we can forward her the details. If she could respond to them through correspondence, it would be very useful from the committee's point of view. She does not have to respond on the point being made by Threshold now but may do so in correspondence.

Let us consider the circumstances where two prospective tenants approach a landlord and one has cash in hand to pay the deposit and the first month's rent, while the other is dependent on State support. In the latter case the landlord is not sure when he or she will receive payment. The applicant probably has to obtain a tax clearance certificate before becoming eligible, in addition to an energy rating certificate, etc. At that point, one is not sure about the rate of assistance, depending on the State support programme in question, be it rent supplement, a housing assistance payment or a payment through the RAS. From the landlord's point of view, the prospective tenant who is not dependent on State support seems to present a better, quicker and easier option.

The Department has overarching control over some of this. What proposals or recommendations would it make to level the playing field such that when a landlord considers the two options, they will be deemed to be of equal value? If this were addressed, the landlord would not face considerably more paperwork and administrative effort to claim one over the other. If Ms Faughnan cannot answer my question now, she might do so in the correspondence to be sent to the committee in responding to Deputy Brendan Ryan's questions. I invite her to also address the other issues raised.

Ms Helen Faughnan

I thank Deputy Brendan Ryan. We will examine the transcript from Threshold and the various questions and answer them.

I have noted the comments made by various Deputies on the apparent misalignment of the experiences of constituents in the payment of deposits, etc. We will examine that issue.

With regard to flooding, the humanitarian assistance scheme operated by the Department of Social Protection is meeting people's immediate needs. The first stage is the provision of emergency income support. Staff on the ground are generally providing money for essential clothing, personal items, to hire dehumidifiers, etc. Generally, the payments are between €100 and €500.

Stages 2 and 3 are when it gets into the more formal assessment in relation to, say, the replacement of white goods or furniture and other essential household items. Stage 3 involves the works that are required when the houses have dried out, such as plastering, drylining, relaying of floors, etc. We are still in that process with a lot of households around the country. To date, 540 households have been assisted and payments totalling €1.18 million have been made. The Department has a legal right whereby when flooding happens, we do not have to go to the Government to seek approval. We have permission to spend up to €10 million as required in relation to all of these various needs. Of course, there are a lot of other issues in relation to flood barriers, etc., that are the responsibility of the OPW and local authorities. We might engage if there are issues around the humanitarian aid scheme from Deputies' first-hand experience. While we can try to be a bit better prepared for the next time, I am satisfied that we have the feet on the ground. Our staff are engaging with the local authorities and emergency services, including gardaí and fire personnel, in this space.

Deputy Durkan asked about the various elements. I agree social welfare and income supports should never have been in this whole housing support because what in effect happened was that we had nearly 90,000 people in receipt of rent supplement. Local authorities did not regard them as being their responsibility or on their books or consider that they had to try to find a housing solution for them. This is why the rental accommodation scheme and HAP are very important initiatives in this regard. To date, exceptional needs payments, RAS and HAP support 100,000 people at a cost of approximately €450 million per year, which is a significant investment. Expenditure on exceptional needs payments has been decreasing over the years but we inherited a mechanism where staff were operating who had been in eight different health board areas. Depending on the nature of instructions, etc., there were huge inconsistencies. What we tried to bring forward was a level of consistency across the country so that if somebody applies for an exceptional needs payment in Buncrana, New Ross or Kildare, he or she can generally be provided with the same level of service. A lot of payments were being made which were not exceptional or unforeseen and we are trying to bring a level of consistency to those. For example, payments seem to have stabilised at or around €30 million per annum but it is a demand-led scheme and if demand increases for whatever reason, we will ensure the proper supports are provided. The appeals mechanism is generally at local level. If a community welfare officer has made a decision and a person is not happy with it, the area manager, who is someone like Mr. O'Rourke or Ms Tighe, will review, in the first instance, the payments made. It will always be somebody different from the original person who made the decision who will review it.

The form is probably one of our more complicated ones. I mentioned the third party intervention with the landlords. One of the major supports and efficiencies which have been gained with the establishment of our Intreo centres is that community welfare service staff have access to our central IT system which is called BOMi. The amount of data they now have available to them in terms of clients' means has assisted so that the processing time for the primary social welfare payments is down from about three weeks to about three days. The data the staff have available to them assists them. We are not there yet in terms of some of the SWA schemes but that is our next stage in terms of trying to improve the efficiencies in the processing of those particular claims.

There are various proposals in terms of our clients who are competing. It is a challenge. We will consider those issues and come back with a note to the committee.

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

Is it possible for a grant to be given to those residents in vulnerable flood-prone areas to lift, for example, sockets off the ground or to tile the house inside to ensure when water comes in, it goes out? Will the Department look at such a grant because it will save millions of euro in claims every three or so years?

Ms Helen Faughnan

I am pleased with what the Department is doing in this regard. We have hired loss adjusters to assist us with the stage 3 refurbishments. We have also asked the loss adjusters to give advice to householders on simple measures, like the Deputy mentioned, such as locating sockets higher up, replacing wooden floors with tiles, etc. The stage 3 payments we are making cover and include any type of preventive measures like that.

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

In Athlone during the recent floods, we saved 120 houses. However, there is nothing to say that if it happened again, those houses will not flood. Those residents have not got any grants. It was an emergency in November and it is still an emergency today. Will a grant be made available to residents in such circumstances to do the works now on their houses to prevent another problem happening again?

Ms Helen Faughnan

An interdepartmental group, led by the Office of Public Works, is looking at this whole area of preventive measures at local as well as individual level. The Department is represented on this group and we will be supportive of whatever instructions come out of it.

Chairman

I thank Ms Faughnan and the full team from the Department for attending today. The answers were enlightening and there are several written answers which they will forward on to the committee.

Sitting suspended at 1.05 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.