Committee on Public Petitions díospóireacht

Consideration of Public Petition on Taking in Charge (Resumed): Tipperary County Council

Chairman

The next item on the agenda is the committee's engagement with Tipperary County Council on Mr. Terence Coskeran's petition No. 00021/21, taking in charge. This petition is a request for Tipperary County Council to take in charge a residential development of five houses at Rocksprings, Kilross, County Tipperary, developed by Mr. Coskeran. Mr Coskeran appeared before the committee on 13 October 2022 to present his petition and I welcome him and Mrs. Margaret Coskeran to the Public Gallery and back to Leinster House.

Before we begin, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such a direction.

Before we hear from the witnesses, I propose we publish Tipperary County Council's opening statement on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. I extend a warm welcome on behalf of the committee to Mr. Joe McGrath, chief executive, Mr. Eamon Lonergan, director of services, and Mr. Denis Holland, senior engineer at Tipperary County Council. I understand Mr. McGrath will make the opening statement on behalf of the council. I suggest he should make his statement for approximately ten minutes. We will then invite members to ask questions and make comments. I request each member to keep within ten minutes to allow members to make a second contribution.

I invite Mr. McGrath to make his opening statement.

Mr. Joe McGrath

I thank the Chair and the members for the invitation to attend this public session of the joint committee on the petition on taking in charge by Mr. Terence Coskeran. We filed a detailed report and opening statement with the committee about this matter. I will confine my opening statement to the first five pages but I hope the detail provided will be useful in clarifying some matters and providing information to the members of the committee.

I am joined by my colleagues, Mr. Eamon Lonergan, director of services, planning and development, water services in Thurles Municipal District, and by Mr. Denis Holland, senior engineer, water services.

As we are all aware, this petition relates to the taking in charge of the residential development at Rocksprings, Kilross, County Tipperary. l will outline some local and national issues that have impacted on the taking in charge of Rocksprings to enable the committee to have a full understanding of the role of Tipperary County Council in this process.

First, I will provide some background about the residential development at Rocksprings, Kilross. The development consists of five houses and was developed by Mr. Terence Coskeran on foot of a grant of approval issued in 2003. It is served by a stand-alone developer-provided wastewater treatment plant, commonly known as a DPI. I will not go through appendix 1 but I refer members to it as it sets out more details in relation to the grant of approval.

Tipperary County Council acknowledges that Rocksprings has been built and maintained to an acceptable standard. In particular, the infrastructure serving the estate, including the water services infrastructure, does not present any issues of concern to the local authority.

I will move on to some general comments on taking in charge. The legislative provisions for taking in charge are set out in section 180 of the Planning and Development Act 2000.

Prior to the establishment of Irish Water on 1 January 2014, the taking-in-charge process was solely within the remit of the local authority. However, the transfer of responsibility for water services from the local authority to Irish Water in 2014 has changed the procedure for the taking in charge of residential estates. lrish Water has clarified in correspondence, as early as 2014, that a local authority may not take in charge water services infrastructure without its consent.

The engagement between a local authority and lrish Water in relation to the taking-in-charge process is set out more fully in a memorandum of understanding, MOU, dated 4 March 2015. However, the MOU does not cover residential estates, such as Rocksprings, which are served by stand-alone developer provided water services infrastructure, DPl. I refer the committee to appendix 2 in which I have outlined more detail on that.

The issue before the committee, namely, the development of private infrastructure, is a national one. Responsibility for DPIs is a national issue. This is recognised in the MOU referred to above which stated, in relation to residential estates that are served by stand-alone developer provided infrastructure such as wells, water treatment plants and wastewater treatment plants, that the then Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, the water services transition office and lrish Water were currently working to put in place a national strategy, including funding to address deficiencies in these estates and that guidance on this matter will be issued in due course.

It is understood that as at December 2018, and this figure may be subject to change, a total of 834 residential estates were recorded nationally as being served by DPIs. I can confirm that 25 of these estates are located within County Tipperary and are the subject of valid taking-in-charge applications with the planning section. There are another nine DPI estates in the county which, for one reason or another, have not been the subject of taking-in-charge applications.

Currently, responsibility for a DPI rests with the developer of the estate. The local authority cannot take the estate in charge unless lrish Water agrees to assume responsibility for the DPl. This is not happening and as there is no national agreement in place, there is a lack of progress on the taking-in-charge process of these particular estates. This issue is a legacy from the transformation of water services to lrish Water and warrants a national resolution. I refer the committee to appendix 3, which explores this issue in more detail.

I turn to the taking in charge of Rocksprings. Although the council received correspondence dated March 2013 from the residents of the estate, a valid application to take the Rocksprings estate in charge was received by Tipperary County Council on 11 July 2016. At various dates in the intervening period until the present, the developer, Mr. Coskeran, and various public representatives on his behalf, both national and local, were informed by the council that, while on initial inspection, the development was well constructed and the public areas well maintained, the council would be unable to progress the taking in charge of this development due to the presence of the wastewater treatment plant on the site. More details are set out in appendix 4.

Notices of motions on the taking in charge of Rocksprings were submitted by the elected members at the local district of Tipperary County Council in both 2018 and 2022, respectively. In respect of the former, a reply from lrish Water indicated that the current Government guidelines specifically excluded estates such as Rocksprings which have their own wastewater treatment systems built by the developer. In respect of the latter, a reply from legal services in lrish Water referred to the MOU which excludes the taking in charge of residential estates with DPIs and that lrish Water was not in a position to consider taking in charge the wastewater infrastructure within the Rocksprings estate. It must also be noted that in the case of Rocksprings, the taking in charge is not within the remit of the elected members of Tipperary County Council due to the transfer of the local authority's water services functions to lrish Water. I refer the committee to appendix 7 for more detail on that.

I turn to the broader issue of taking in charge of estates by Tipperary County Council. As chief executive of Tipperary County Council, I am conscious of the challenges presented in the taking in charge of residential developments. I am committed to putting resources and procedures in place to monitor progress in this area and to accelerate the process. In particular, I have established an in-house working group, chaired by the director of services for planning, consisting of senior staff from planning, roads, water services and, where relevant, environment. Not alone does this working group report to the council's management team on a regular basis, more critically it presents quarterly updates to the 40 elected members of Tipperary County Council at their district meetings. As the Chairman knows, we have five districts in the county.

I am glad to say that much progress has been made in County Tipperary in the taking in charge of residential developments and, to date, a total of 122 housing estates have been taken in charge since 2014. I have given more details on that and a breakdown year-by-year in appendix 5. I can assure the committee that Tipperary County Council remains committed to the taking in charge of the remaining estates.

In the case of Rocksprings, the council would like to proceed as quickly as possible with its taking in charge. However, it cannot do so without the agreement of lrish Water as the water services authority, or some national agreement on the responsibility for DPIs within the taking-in-charge process for the reasons outlined above. I empathise with the situation in which Mr. Coskeran finds himself which he alone cannot resolve. However, I hope it is appreciated that we also find ourselves in a situation which we alone cannot resolve either.

I turn to the issue of the multi-annual developer-provided infrastructure resolution programme, which ran between 2019 and 2021. This programme was launched by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage on 23 July 2019 to address the issue of stand-alone developer-provided infrastructure, principally wastewater treatment plants, to progressively enable the taking in charge of residential estates served by DPIs. Tipperary County Council, led by its planning section, submitted a funding bid to the Department on 17 September 2019 in relation to this programme. Rocksprings was included as priority number four in the submission, which contained 11 estates. That gives some indication as to the prioritisation we attached to the Rocksprings estate.

The council sought funding of €53,500 for a gravity connection from the Rocksprings DPI to the wastewater treatment plant serving the adjacent local authority housing estate at Hillview. On 22 September 2020, the council was notified that its submission in relation to Rocksprings was unsuccessful. The expert panel, which assessed the submissions, stated the following in relation to Rocksprings: "The Expert Panel considers the bid to be premature for approval under the current funding cycle of the multi-annual programme as issues with the responsibility in the long-term for the enabling sewerage scheme needs to be resolved before funding approval can be recommended." I have included more detail on that in appendix 6.

I turn to communication received from the Department in 2022. The council's rural water team received a letter from the rural water unit of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, dated 9 June 2022. The letter indicated that at the request of the Department, lrish Water would be carrying out a technical assessment of the wastewater treatment plant serving the adjoining Hillview housing estate to determine whether Rocksprings could be connected to it. This technical assessment has been completed and we understand a report has been submitted to the Department. Further developments are awaited in this regard. For the information of the committee, appendix 8 sets out more detail on this initiative by the Department. Also set out is some background information in relation to the Hillview residential estate and to small municipal wastewater treatment plants in general. This initiative by the Department is most welcome.

Regarding Rocksprings and future proposals, I know the Chairman, members of the committee and Mr. Coskeran, in particular, are seeking a resolution to this issue, as are we. I would like to put forward the following proposals as a way forward to allow the estate to be taken in charge but there are a number of elements to this. First, lrish Water has to accept responsibility for the operation and maintenance of the agglomeration of Kilross, which consists of the wastewater treatment plant serving the local authority housing estate at Hillview. Second, lrish Water has to carry out a condition survey of this Hillview wastewater treatment plant to assess its capacity to cater for increased loading in the event that the Rocksprings plant was connected to it. As I mentioned earlier, we understand that technical assessment has been undertaken and the report has been submitted to the Department. Third, in the event that a programme of works is identified, on foot of this, the cost of this can be estimated and funding identified for these works. I want it noted that we are not putting costs or budgets as an issue in relation to the resolution of this issue. We believe that if the other issues can be overcome, the funding issue will be overcome as well. Fourth, the execution of such a programme of works can be finalised, which would include the decommissioning of the Rocksprings wastewater treatment plant and agreement as to how these works would be carried out. It will be necessary for lrish Water to apply to the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, to amend the existing certificate of authorisation for Kilross to incorporate Rocksprings. Finally, Tipperary County Council could then proceed, without delay, to follow the statutory procedures and complete the taking-in-charge process in respect of Rocksprings and I can assure the Chairman that it would do so as quickly as is statutorily possible. lf this proposal is not possible as a solution, although I hope it is, I would have to submit that resolution will have to be part of the determination of any future national arrangements in relation to DPIs. As I mentioned, there are more than 800 of these across the country.

I again thank the committee for the invitation to come before it today. I hope that this statement has outlined to it the position of Tipperary County Council on the subject matter of Mr. Coskeran's petition, with particular reference to the factors which act as constraints to the council finalising the taking in charge of the residential development at Rocksprings, Kilross.

I am saying that there are letters from 2016 and 2017. There were two in 2017. There was no mention to Mr. Coskeran of a problem or an issue with Irish Water taking over Rocksprings. Everybody appreciates, including the council, that this was a small estate that was needed. The housing problem will not be resolved unless we get small developers like Mr. Coskeran to build five or six houses in these areas.

Everybody agrees that the works were carried out to the high standard. We now have a situation where Mr. Coskeran finds that he cannot get his estate taken in charge. The reason it has dragged on this long is that we now have four bodies, namely, Tipperary County Council, the Department, Irish Water and the EPA, kicking the can around the circle. This is the nice way of saying it at this stage. Someone needs to take responsibility. Before I allow other members in, I would ask if any of the witnesses can tell the committee who is responsible for bringing Rocksprings into the public system? The wastewater plant in Hillview, which is beside it, is under the control of Irish Water. Is that a public wastewater system? It appears to be. If the wastewater system in Hillview is capable of taking the extra load, which we have been told it is, then a very easy solution would be for Rocksprings to be connected to that system. No one from the council, Irish Water or the Department seems to be prepared to look at that or go out and check on it. I know it is one of the proposals that is down as a solution but why has it not been looked at before this?

Mr. Denis Holland

It has been looked at, Chairman. First, I will go back a little. The local authority housing estate at Hillview was the subject of an application by the local authority to the EPA for what is called a certificate of authorisation. That was granted. On 1 January 2014 the EPA, as it did in relation to all similar agglomerations, county-wide and country-wide, transferred that certificate of authorisation in the name of Irish Water. If one looks up the EPA website, one will see that as far as the EPA is concerned, the holder of the relevant certificate of authorisation for that treatment plant is Irish Water.

The possibility of Rocksprings connecting into the plant was the subject of the technical assessment that was carried out in June of this year. In partnership with the local authority, Irish Water did a major investigation of that treatment plant to see whether it was capable of receiving the extra effluent from Rocksprings. I understand that Irish Water was satisfied that the plant could take the extra effluent. However, there may have been some concerns in relation to the condition of the receiving water, bearing in mind the additional treated effluent that would be coming into it. That would require further attention. That report, which was referred to in the opening statement, was sent to the Department and further developments in that area are awaited.

Chairman

As I said at the start, I need to leave so I am going to ask Deputy Devlin to replace me until I come back.

Deputy Cormac Devlin took the chair.

Deputy Pat Buckley

I was in construction for years. I did sewerage and water works so I know what we are talking about here. I am very frustrated on behalf of Mr. Coskeran. I can now see some part of the picture of where the county council is coming from but I have a number of questions. The DPIs categorise estates according to the number of residential units. Category three estates contain under 50 residential units and category four estates contain under five residential units. Mr. Coskeran had five homes. The council would have been aware of this a number of years ago. When the circular came out from the then Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government for the only tranche of moneys for the DPIs, why was Mr. Coskeran's one not applied for? What I am trying to find out is who has really messed up here? Mr. McGrath stated earlier that it was a failed transition from the council to Irish Water. Before the municipal councils, the county councils and the town councils were the local experts when it came to water connections and water repairs. That is one cock up, we will call it.

I refer to the category four estates. I am trying to get to who is really responsible here because this came out under the framework for the multi-annual DPIs. The council will not even be able to apply for this because if Mr. Coskeran's estate falls under the under five residential units, it is on the tipping point. Given the likely limited public or water environment impact of a small-scale treatment system of legacy DPI estates, local authorities are not being asked for bids for them in the current funding cycle. That means that even if funding for Mr. Coskeran's estate had been applied for, it probably would have met resistance because it was right on the button with five houses.

I need to know who is responsible for this. The witnesses' hands seem to be tied but they seem to be tied for a very long time. There seems to be no cohesion between Irish Water and the councils. Is it the Department that has messed up here? Even if we get an answer to that question, the biggest problem here is that this has been going on for years. There are five families in homes in that estate. I cannot understand how we have to come to this point over a number of years of back and forth and yet it is the families of those five homes who are suffering and they are suffering at a cost. I will not get into the property tax. If the estate is not taken in charge, is it classed as a derelict estate? Are they being charged for property tax that they should not be paying? There are many questions here but I do need that one answered.

I was going to ask why the DPI was not applied for but now I can see the reason. That points the finger at the Department. Was Irish Water ever contacted when this situation came up to inform it of the fact that work on a connection to this estate was being blocked? That is one question.

I will go back to my second question. Who in the witnesses' opinion is responsible for the mess here? I will move on to my third question, although I know it was stated in the conclusions. Going back to the last petitions committee, there were five separate entities involved in inland fisheries coming up with five different plans for one dam on a river. We brought them all into the committee and they sat down together. The suggestion from the committee was that the five entities came up with a single plan that all could sign off on. Why is there such a disparity between the council, Irish Water, which I am not a fan of, and the Government? We should not even be here. This should be a very simple thing but from the statement, I feel that Irish Water is hiding behind one mess because it is all about granting additional money. A substantial amount of money was given out in the first tranche - €6 million in 2019, €10 million in 2020 and €12 million in 2021. That is handy money for a few estates.

Who has really messed up here? Why did the council not apply for funding under the multi-annual developer-provided water services infrastructure resolution programme in 2019 if it was aware of Mr. Coskeran's estate? I reiterate my second question. Who does the council believe is responsible for this mess?

Mr. Denis Holland

I can assure Deputy Buckley that we applied for funding for Rocksprings. When the Department announced the multi-annual programme in 2019, it invited local authorities to make submissions, to make funding bids, as it were.

We made a detailed submission in September of that year. We identified 11 estates within our county that would be eligible for funding under the programme. We prioritised those and put Rocksprings at No. 4 on the list of 11. It was referred to in the chief executive's opening statement. If the committee refers to appendix 6 of the statement, it gives more details. We set out the proposal, which was broadly along the lines referred to in our proposal for the future development or action to resolve Rocksprings, and that was to connect the wastewater treatment plant from Rocksprings into the adjoining estate in Hillview.

The Department established an expert panel to review all the funding submissions that have come in from the different local authorities in the country. The expert panel published its report in September 2020, which the Department accepted. In respect of Rocksprings, it said the expert panel considered the bid to be premature for approval under the current funding cycle of the programme as issues with the responsibility in the long term for the enabling sewerage scheme, by which they meant the adjoining one at Hillview, needed to be resolved before funding approval could be recommended. As the chief executive has said, there is a national resolution required to resolve the DPI issue, not alone in County Tipperary but nationally. In the short term, we have proposed a local solution. If it is not possible to expedite and progress on that, we will then have to seek a national solution and for Rocksprings to be included in that.

Deputy Pat Buckley

I thank the witness for that answer. At least we know the council applied. Who set up the expert panel? Was that a Government-nominated expert panel?

Mr. Denis Holland

Yes.

Deputy Pat Buckley

Now we are getting forward a bit more. The more I listen, the more I am saying to myself this has to be a governmental change at top level. In the meantime, however, and Mr. Coskeran is not alone in this, there are families throughout the country who are obviously in the same situation, and I believe almost 700 estates in the country are in a similar situation. This is a major issue, and we will try to use the polite word because I am very frustrated that this has been going on for years and no one contacted the Department in Dublin nor did anyone flag it. What seems to have happened, unfortunately, is that while it is totally within the remit of the council, nobody wanted to step outside the box, use the common-sense approach and say it needed to be flagged up. There are directly elected councillors in each county and even the thought of taking the power off them to vote on stuff regarding these estates in their own county is shocking. I cannot figure out why Tipperary County Council back in 2019 or 2020 or 2021 had seen this issue and had not flagged it with the Department. Was it flagged with the Department?

Mr. Eamon Lonergan

I can answer that query. The Department will have been aware of this issue for a number of years. The establishment of this expert panel and the multi-annual programme shows there is a good knowledge of the problem throughout the county. The surveys were carried out going back as far as 2015 to establish the scale of this and, as Mr. McGrath has explained, there are 834 of these estates across the country. The estimated expenditure will go into hundreds of millions to resolve these. It is very much on the national agenda and both the Department and Irish Water are very well aware of it. Ultimately, where we are going to see the resolution of this, because it is a legacy issue like other legacy issues, is in the discussions that are happening now at a national level between all the stakeholders forming part of this discussion and the solution ultimately for the national problem. Those legacy issues have been identified and DPIs form part of those legacy issues. That is the national context. The Department is very well aware of it. The fact it is putting forward a multi-year funding programme shows that.

In this local incident, we applied for funding back in 2019 and we recognise there is a solution here. We need to get the stakeholders to the table, and they have come to the table, they have come on side and they have inspected and done technical checks on the estate. They have recognised that we want to push this and they recognise there is a solution. That is the positive thing since as far back as June this year, and that is in the opening statement. Those technical inspections have taken place in the interim. We believe the proposal Mr. McGrath and Tipperary County Council are putting forward is a realistic one, and with Irish Water on board, which it is because it is doing the technical inspections and the Department is giving authorisation for us to look at that, all parties are now moving on this Rocksprings estate as quickly as we can. We are not waiting for this national resolution. We see this as a priority estate. We have ranked it highly in our application for funding and we are looking at a solution with the Department and Irish Water. That is our commitment and Mr. McGrath has outlined that in his opening statement.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Cormac Devlin)

Thank you for that, Mr. Lonergan. Deputy Buckley should feel free to come back in if he wants to. I am conscious Senator Murphy is on the line. Does he want to add anything or does he have any questions on this issue?

Senator Eugene Murphy

No, none at the moment. I discussed this with Deputy Buckley the other day. I was not aware of the whole situation. I can see now it is an issue that must be addressed. I am listening to the conversation and what I get from it is that there seems to be a commitment to act on this. At the moment I will not make any further comment.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Cormac Devlin)

Thank you, Senator. I will come in on this, if I may. An application for planning was made in 2003 and here we are in 2022, coming into 2023, 20 years later and the DPI issue is still not resolved. I hear what Mr McGrath is saying about 800-odd other DPIs throughout the country and 25 within Tipperary. It is quite scary that this issue has taken the time, not to mention the cost of coming here, it has to try to be resolved. I am conscious Mr. Coskeran is in the Gallery, and I was not able to interact with him when he was a witness before this committee, but I really shudder to think why this is happening. It is bureaucracy gone mad if it is taking 20 years. I do not lay the blame fully at Tipperary County Council's door, but from 2003 up to 2014, with the establishment of Irish Water, that was a period when the issue was with Tipperary County Council. Following on from that, there was the establishment of Irish Water. I note what has been said, that there is a report being done and that the council applied for funding in 2019, three years ago. I am not sure when the report is to be done. Mr. McGrath might be able to clarify that with the Department. Surely, however, he as chief executive has to agree with me that this is not acceptable and that this has taken an inordinate amount of time. I am conscious that the five houses in Rocksprings we are speaking about are on the hook for the cost of resolution of any issue with infrastructure that would arise in the short to medium term. That is an extreme worry for people. Like Deputy Buckley and Senator Murphy and others, I would regularly deal with requests for taking in charge but rarely have I seen the buck being passed from one organisation to the next and everybody saying it is someone's fault or someone else's issue or we are waiting on this report or that investigation and this site meeting. I would be inclined to have a follow-up meeting within a month with the witnesses present from Tipperary County Council, with the EPA with Irish Water and with the Department.

This is not just about one DPI; it is about a plethora of them and the process relating to them, which is clearly failing.

Mr. McGrath listed Rocksprings as No. 4 on the list of priorities for the county. That is to be welcomed, but I shudder to think about what will happen to the priorities from No. 5 all the way through to No. 25 if this is the pace at which these matters are going to be resolved. They cannot all come before the Oireachtas for negotiation. I hope that a streamlined process can be put in place between Irish Water and all of the local authorities to which the 800-odd DPIs relate. Mr. McGrath might come back to me in terms of the timeframe for the deliberation on this report. Ultimately, what kind of timeframe does he envisage in the context of finding a resolution to this issue after 20 years?

Mr. Joe McGrath

I want to come back to those issues. I share the sense of frustration in respect of this matter. I particularly want to acknowledge Mr. Coskeran, who is a very decent gentleman and who has completed this estate to a high standard. As I have said, if we can overcome this issue regarding the DPI, there are no other issues, from Tipperary County Council's point of view, that would prevent the estate being taken in charge. I want to state that. Mr. Coskeran has completed a number of works on the estate. I want to acknowledge that, and we thank him for it.

On timeframes, an estate remains private until it is taken in charge. I take the point regarding the granting of permission in 2003. However, the first full and valid taking-in-charge application was made in 2016. We are not talking about a period from 2003 to the present. Effectively, we are talking about the period from 2016 to now. The Acting Chairman will say that is a long period. I accept that. The reality is that the position in relation to responsibility for water services changed in 2014. I am not here to point the finger of blame at anybody else. We are highlighting what we believe we can do to take responsibility for our part in respect of this matter. In fairness, the Department has also taken responsibility in the very welcome initiative it took in June. That is seeking to do exactly what the committee has asked us to do, which is bring the parties together in order to seek a resolution. I am optimistic that this will lead to something useful, and will get us through this. I cannot put a timeframe on that now, but I will give an undertaking to contact the Department in order to accelerate matters. My understanding is that the report has been completed and submitted to the Department. It is good to have that.

I take the point in respect of this matter. We find ourselves in a situation whereby this is a legacy issue that requires a number of us working together in order to work through it. I am conscious - and I hope this is acknowledged - that I have presented a very detailed report today. I have put all of the facts before the committee and outlined all the issues. We are here to take the questions. I just want to be very clear that I could have put in a two- or three-page report that would have been less than useful to the committee. I have not done that. We have given all of the details in respect of this matter. As already stated, we are not here today to point the finger of blame at anybody. We are accepting our responsibility in the process. In fairness, so are Irish Water and the Department.

The type of meeting that has been referred to can certainly be organised. As a result of today's proceedings, we will engage further with the Department. We have been doing that. We will highlight the frustration of the committee to the Department, and discuss with it and Irish Water a way of arriving at a resolution. We can look at the years that have passed in the context of the difficulties that have arisen. I want to look to the future, however, to a point where we get a resolution and where I will be in a position to bring forward a report to the elected members of Tipperary County Council in the context of taking this estate in charge. I will not be found wanting in doing that, once we can get through that issue.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Cormac Devlin)

I thank Mr. McGrath for that clarification in terms of the six-year period. He is right; it is too long, even at six years. That said, and the fact that there is no possibility of providing a timeframe at this juncture, I am conscious that this issue could rumble on for another year or more. Is there any option of even a partial takeover of other services in the interim while the DPI issue is resolved? I am not sure if Mr. McGrath can elaborate on that.

On the cost to Tipperary County Council in terms of hours associated with this issue, be it on-site or the need to engage with Irish Water or the EPA, I imagine the cost to the council on this site - Mr. McGrath mentioned that there are 25 such sites in total - is costing Tipperary County Council quite a bit of time and money. I also imagine that it is a distraction in the context of the other work the council needs to be doing vis-à-vis housing, etc. In the absence of a timeframe, we could easily be here in six or 12 months' time and the matter would not have progressed any further. I acknowledge Mr. McGrath's comprehensive and transparent statement and his willingness and eagerness to resolve the issue. I commend Mr. Coskeran's patience in trying to navigate the quagmire that seems to be in existence between local government, Irish Water and the EPA. Mr. McGrath might come back on those points and then I will let Deputy Buckley back in.

Mr. Joe McGrath

As the Chair will appreciate, there are a number of parties involved. That is why I am not in a position to do other than assure the committee that we and the Department will continue to deal with this issue in as urgent a manner as possible. It might be useful if, early in the new year - perhaps January or February - I could submit to the secretariat an update or progress report. I would be quite happy to do that if it would be useful to the committee to outline where the matter stands at that point and in order that members have some line of sight on it.

On the other issues, we are trying to get to a point where we can take this estate in charge. We have outlined a proposal involving a possible mechanism that might make that happen. There is no lack of willingness on the part of any of the parties involved to do that and to progress matters.

I again acknowledge Mr. Coskeran's patience in this process. We need to bear with it. There are many DPIs in Tipperary, but this is the one I am dealing with. That is, perhaps, an indication of the prioritisation that I am attaching to it. There is no lack of willingness or intent on our part to try to see this through, and we are prepared to do that.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Cormac Devlin)

I thank Mr. McGrath. A note would be helpful - certainly in January. if possible - in order to give the committee an indication of how it is progressing. We will take Mr. McGrath up on that offer.

On the issue of a partial taking in charge, I do not know if that is one of the interim solutions that could be considered.

Mr. Joe McGrath

My apologies, that is an interesting question. We looked at this and examined the relevant legislation. If that was possible, we would do it. However, I am not too sure that would resolve Mr. Coskeran's problem, because the issue of most concern to him relates to the DPI. Our understanding of the way the legislation is written is that the taking-in-charge process requires that the entirety of services be taken in charge. That means roads, open spaces, public lighting and water services. Since 2014, responsibility for water services lies with Irish Water. All of the others fall within our responsibility. That is according to the legislation, which was written many years before the establishment of Irish Water and the situation we find ourselves in.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Cormac Devlin)

That is fair enough. In terms of the taking-in-charge process, which we are probably all familiar with on this committee, maybe there is the potential for those services the council is in control of to be taken in charge. I assume that the latter would not satisfy Mr. Coskeran. However, it would certainly give some comfort to the residents of the five properties if they were in some way indemnified in the context of issues with other types of infrastructure. I will leave that point to Mr. McGrath. He might send a note to the committee on that when he is providing the briefing, which will be very welcome, in January. I will now hand back to Deputy Buckley.

Deputy Pat Buckley

This is really not about pointing fingers; it is about having this discussion, which is very welcome. I am very conscious the Mr. Coskeran is in the Gallery. We have to have these conversations, particularly because, as we have been discussing this matter, a picture has been painted.

There seem to be gaps in the legislation, quite possibly since Irish Water was set up. This restricts the county councils. I can hear that from the witnesses. We hear things in the Dáil, where we might be tabling motions. The witnesses put a proposal forward when concluding. It may be six years too late, but that is only my opinion. I do welcome the proposal.

The Acting Chair asked about timeframes, but, obviously, the witnesses cannot give us that information. As a Deputy, when I leave this meeting, what could I actually do? Could I approach the Minister with responsibility for this matter and tell him we have had this discussion with officials from Tipperary County Council? Let us be honest and state that this is going to be a massive problem. It is going to require a lot of money. There are people and families suffering. A huge cost has been incurred in this context over all these years. We are just trying to be fair to everybody.

As I said, I listened to the statements. I am getting the bigger picture that the county councils have been prevented from moving forward. The gap between local government and the Government in Dublin is being filled by Irish Water. The organisation will not go that way and it will not go this way. There seems to be a massive gap in what should be a joined-up approach. The commonsense approach is not there. Has the council got a commitment from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and Irish Water to meet and discuss this issue? If so, has a date been set for such a meeting? I am just trying to get an idea of the timeframe, because I am conscious of all the families in these estates. We might be able to get an answer and then be able to tell these people, even though it might not be the answer they want, that there might be movement on this issue next March. As elected representatives, and this is a very open committee, politics is not really played because this is the "lastchance.com" forum for people outside Leinster House to voice their concerns. This is the way it should be. It is the citizens' assembly, as we would call it here, for whatever is coming in the door.

Has agreement been reached between Tipperary County Council, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and Irish Water to meet? The issue might be addressed even in the witnesses' county. Tipperary might as well be the pilot project now. Tipperary leading this process will be a bonus to the county. What can we, as Deputies, do once we leave this meeting?

Deputy Martin Browne resumed the Chair.

Mr. Eamon Lonergan

I will reply to those questions. We can take them together, because the ultimate solution is the coming together of all parties. I mentioned the mechanism to bring this about earlier. It is the current negotiations happening in the context of the transformation of the water services sector, which is a multiparty discussion. It includes representatives from the Department, Irish Water and the CCMA, all working under the guidance of the Workplace Relations Commission to examine all these issues as the water sector transforms further in 2023. This is where this issue must be dealt with in respect of this legacy issue. This has been identified to the Department, and Irish Water is also aware of it. Ultimately, this is the forum in which legacy issues like this will be resolved at a national level.

Turning to our own context and meeting with stakeholders, Mr. McGrath has given a commitment and undertaking to have this meeting. This is on the local side. As I said, however, these discussions must be part of the transformation of the water sector and discussions are ongoing in this regard.

Deputy Pat Buckley

My final question concerned what we could physically do today after this meeting to assist the witnesses to move forward as fast as possible?

Mr. Joe McGrath

We are engaged in a detailed process at national level on the transformation of water services. The Deputy is aware of a recent framework agreement which sets out how this is going to be accelerated from the start of next year. In many respects, this is to be welcomed because it will accelerate the need to address issues like this. One of the issues that will be addressed in this regard, and which we would welcome, is the taking in charge of housing estates. We mentioned earlier that there is a memorandum of understanding, MOU, in place in respect of taking housing estates in charge. This has worked very well. I mentioned that we have taken 122 estates in charge in County Tipperary as a result. It would be welcome if we could see a similar arrangement, MOU or agreement at national level as part of dealing with the legacy issues regarding DPI estates, of which there are some 800, or thereabouts, in the country. I hope this information is useful to the Deputy.

Deputy Pat Buckley

I thank Mr. Lonergan and Mr. McGrath.

Chairman

I thank Deputy Devlin for stepping in as Acting Chair. Things may have been covered while I was gone, but I will ask some questions. Who is responsible for blocking the taking in charge of Rocksprings and the other 800-plus estates? Someone must hold their hands up and say it is the county council, the Department or Irish Water that is responsible. In the opinion of Mr. McGrath, which entity is holding up the taking in charge of these estates? I ask this because the way I am looking at the subject is that if there is this much hassle over an estate that everybody accepts is done to very good standards, then, my God, there are estates out there that will not have their problems resolved in 50 years. In the view of the witnesses, therefore, who is responsible for the delay in taking in charge Rocksprings estate and other such estates?

Mr. Joe McGrath

It would be unfair of me to point the finger in respect of any one body concerning this issue. The reality is that its resolution will require several State bodies to come together, including the Department, the local authority sector and Irish Water. Potentially, the EPA will also be included, but this body will not be front and centre in this regard.

A transformation process is ongoing. It is dealing with aspects such as this issue in respect of legacy matters around the transformation and transfer of water services. This committee is dealing with a petition from one estate and I accept that the committee wants to get a resolution to this issue. We have come before the committee today with the hope of assisting the committee to get this resolution. Potentially, however, there are 800 estates in this position. This is not a minor issue. This is quite a significant issue and, potentially, there are 800 estates across the country with DPIs. The means by which these estates' problems are addressed will take time. I also expect some considerable cost will be associated with undertaking this endeavour. I refer to a delayed process through the framework agreement regarding how this issue might be resolved.

Chairman

I appreciate that there are 800 and more estates in this situation. I guarantee Mr. McGrath that during my time on the council and from talking to other politicians up here and around the country, very few of these 800-plus estates were finished to the standard of Rocksprings. This is why I am asking questions regarding the kinds of situations and obstacles being put in the way of an estate like Rocksprings. None of us speaking here today will be around by the time we get to the last of these 800-plus estates if it has taken this long to resolve the issue with Rocksprings estate, which seems to be one that could easily be resolved. I appreciate where the witnesses are coming from regarding the approximately 820 estates around the country. Has the Department or Irish Water given a direct reason for why an estate like Rocksprings is not being moved or why there is such a dragging of heels in not getting this estate over the line?

Mr. Joe McGrath

I am asking that because I am trying to support the council. Mr. Coskeran and those families stuck to their side of the bargain and the council stuck to its side of the bargain, but the people in the middle have messed this up absolutely. I am looking for that information because we can then go to the Department that is responsible and say there are agreements, contracts and understandings, and there is a bit of empathy and respect on both sides of the wall, so surely it can come to a quick resolution. The witnesses have heard of statutory instruments and they know that cigarette prices and alcohol prices can be put up overnight. It is very frustrating for us and it has to be frustrating for the council, but it must be really frustrating for the five families who are living in this estate. This has gone on way too long. We need to have that information in order to fight on everybody's behalf. That is why I am asking. Somebody signed off on the original planning and the stipulations with Mr. Coskeran. We need that document or those documents. We also want to look for the completed snag list so we have a full picture.

We need to know that everything was done right but the council has been prevented from taking over because of a technical issue ten or 12 years later, when the Government decided to take water services away from county councils, set up a new entity and change all the rules. I am sure that if water was still with the county councils, we would not be looking at these figures because the people who were there were well capable of making these connections. That is what is making me very frustrated. I feel that if we can get that information in black and white on paper, we can work on behalf of both the families in that estate and Tipperary County Council.

Mr. Eamon Lonergan

As the Deputy has clarified, there is no issue with me revealing the conditions, the snag list, the inspection and the taking-in-charge application. All of that information is on a public file and we will be happy to present that to the committee.

I want to go back to the Chairman's question on communication with the Department. We have regular communication with the Department. The reply on 9 June stated that the Department understands that Tipperary County Council is seeking to resolve the DPI serving of a private housing estate in Rocksprings, which is very important. It goes on to say that the Department is working with Irish Water, which is willing to examine this. We presented the resolution that we feel is workable, which is very important. This will not work in every housing estate but there is a particular situation in Rocksprings, which is adjacent to Hillview. We flagged in our application back in 2019 that this was our solution and we are still adamant that this is the solution. To quote the Department, it understands that we are seeking to resolve this, which is important, and it is working with Irish Water, which is willing to examine this. That is very positive.

Chairman

We totally understand where the council is coming from and we appreciate some of the solutions. I am not sure which of the witnesses can answer this question.

How confident are the witnesses that these solutions can be taken on board quickly in order that we can get this resolved? This is the second time the committee has had a public session on this issue. We will work as much as we can with Tipperary County Council to get this resolved. Are the council's hands tied until either the Department or Irish Water changes its attitude on the whole system? As I said earlier, and it is no reflection on Tipperary County Council which I know is caught in the middle as well as the families, up until now Mr. Coskeran and the committee have been trying to draw information out of four different areas. Are the council's hands tied until the Department comes on board with the council's solutions? From this point on, we will be helping the council to persuade the Department or Irish Water that this needs to be done and these solutions offer a way out of this situation. Can we as a committee get behind the council on that or should we as a committee go directly to the Department and try to force its officials to come before us here and answer questions, as the council has done? I appreciate that Tipperary County Council has done that.

Mr. Joe McGrath

I acknowledge the position the committee has taken and the positive approach it has taken in regard to this. The initiative taken by the Department is very positive. Mr. Lonergan has read out what the Department said and it is positive. It states that it is prepared to work with ourselves and Irish Water to try to get a resolution. We need that process to take its course. I have undertaken to contact the Department to convey the desire of the committee to see that process accelerated. I will do that. We will arrange to engage further with the Department. We will update the committee early in the new year on how that is going. It would be useful at this stage to allow that process, which has now started, and the resolution to be found and identified to take its course. We will seek to accelerate that. No doubt the Department is aware of the urgency of this matter before the committee and has conveyed that to us as well. We will undertake to do that.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank Mr. McGrath for that. I agreed in the Chair's absence that we would have the briefing note and update from Tipperary County Council. However I am looking at our schedule and January would be helpful. We would have a meeting ourselves either on 18 January or 25 January, more probably the 18 January. Will Mr. McGrath commit to providing that update for our meeting on 18 January if that is possible?

Mr. Joe McGrath

I will certainly do my best to do that. I will make a note of that date.

Chairman

No doubt Tipperary County Council has got the sense of urgency felt by the committee and the residents. The council will want to get this resolved. If we could have an update on that date, we can hopefully get some idea when we can resolve this. Do other members wish to contribute?

Senator Eugene Murphy

I am satisfied if the witnesses follow up with what they have been saying, which is that they will keep us informed and that is okay with me. What we all want to do now is get the matter solved as quickly as possible. I am satisfied with that for the moment.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

For the purpose of the minutes, depending on what kind of update we receive in January, there was also a proposal to have a joint meeting whereby we would request Irish Water, Tipperary County Council, the Department and the EPA, if required, to attend a joint session here early in the new year.

Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Does Mr. McGrath or Mr. Lonergan wish to make any final statements before we finish this session?

Mr. Joe McGrath

I thank the Chair and members for the opportunity to appear before them today and set out the current position. I will highlight a few final key points. The resolution of this requires a national response. All parties are committed to that. We are prepared to take this estate in charge once this issue is resolved. It is important to mention that. Obviously, this is a legacy issue but in regard to Rocksprings estate, I believe there is a way forward. We will continue to engage with the Department and Irish Water to seek to bring that resolution to reality. As I said, I hope the committee appreciates I have given a detailed report today. I was keen to place all of the matters in regard to the issue before the committee and to ensure the committee is fully briefed and aware of the facts.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses for appearing before us today. Hopefully it has been beneficial and something will come out of it early in the new year. I thank Mr. Terence Coskeran and Mrs. Margaret Coskeran for being here as well.

Sitting suspended at 2.56 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.

Committee on Public Petitions díospóireacht - Thursday, 27 Oct 2022

Consideration of Public Petition on Taking in Charge (Resumed): Tipperary County Council

Mr. Joe McGrath

Mr. Joe McGrath

Mr. Joe McGrath

Mr. Denis Holland

Mr. Denis Holland

Mr. Denis Holland

Mr. Denis Holland

Mr. Eamon Lonergan

Mr. Joe McGrath

Mr. Joe McGrath

Mr. Joe McGrath

Mr. Eamon Lonergan

Mr. Joe McGrath

Mr. Joe McGrath

Mr. Joe McGrath

Mr. Denis Holland

Mr. Denis Holland

Mr. Denis Holland

Mr. Denis Holland

Mr. Denis Holland

Mr. Denis Holland

Mr. Eamon Lonergan

Mr. Joe McGrath

Mr. Joe McGrath

Mr. Joe McGrath

Committee on Public Petitions díospóireacht -
Thursday, 27 Oct 2022