Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 18 Aug 1921

Vol. S No. 3

FINANCE DEPARTMENT REPORT: DEBATE RESUMED

House resumed at 4.15 p.m. and before resuming debate on Finance Report, the Secretary read Standing Order No. 75 re expenses for the benefit of the new Teachtaí.

called the Speaker's attention to the non-observance of Standing Order No. 8 referring to the Rules of Debate. He asked that the names of the constituencies be circulated.

said he was afraid such a list was not available and until such time as it was he would not be too severe on the Teachtaí as to how they addressed their colleagues.

proposed the adoption of the report.

urged the Dáil to give the Ministry of Finance permission at once to appoint an official to look after the business of the Assurance Societies and the Sinn Féin Bank. All the monies invested were in jeopardy. There was no necessity for panic, but the situation should be dealt with at once and the proposition of the Finance Minister was a good one. He thought it would be time lost examining the Tables. These Tables were made out in England to suit English conditions which were far different to Irish conditions, a case proven by the fact that British companies were making fortunes while Irish companies were losing huge sums.

pointed out that when the tables were made out to suit English conditions there was also in the mind of the people who were making them out the conditions on which these insurances were taken out. It was a well-known fact that the English person who insured was much less thrifty than the Irish person and the first thing to go was always the insurance premium; the result was they had a tremendous number of lapsed policies in England which went to make the societies self-supporting. The Irish people take insurance very seriously and the last thing that would go would be the policy. Therefore he considered the question of going into the Tables the most important of all. They must take things as they were and he hoped the Dáil would set up a Commission to enquire into the question of Irish insurance societies.

said he did not find himself in agreement with the member for Rathmines. He thought the Tables were one of the main causes of the non-success of these insurance societies, the calculations for which were made, he thought, in 1780 and were based on the death rate of some town in England. They would see that in some of the encyclopedias. From experience they found the length of life in Ireland was not as long as in England. In Dublin the death rate was very much higher than in any other town of the same size in England and they were operating under very hard circumstances because the best blood of the country was exported—a regular drain on the best and most valuable lives. Then, again, the big English companies who come over here had huge funds at their disposal. They had weathered the worst period of their existence and were in a position to swamp out any Irish society. Irish societies started at the very worst time when securities were at the very highest pitch and when the charges for income tax, etc., were also at the highest, and consequently the revenue would be lowest. They had every possible disadvantage that could be conceived. He understood the working expenses had reached 60% or 70% - 80% in some cases. How, he asked, was it reasonably possible for these societies to invest in order to be in a position to meet their liabilities. Any State insurance should guarantee either a return of the money or at least a return of the premiums paid in the case of people unable to continue. It was a wrong principle and morally indefensible that any society should benefit by policies lapsing.

The Australian societies were about the soundest. Societies there could invest free of income tax and that was an inducement to the people to become thrifty.

He believed the proposal would involve the State in some loss but it was due to the people to see that their money was soundly and safely invested for them. He considered insurance should be a State business. There was a good deal of money in the business if run economically by the State. At any rate it was a serious business for them that so many members of the Dáil were attracted to these boards. They had no previous experience to enable them to do justice to those who invested.

said as far as he knew most of the public bodies in Ireland transferred their insurances from British to Irish insurance companies and if the statement of the Minister of Finance was known it would cause grave panic. They wanted to encourage Irish industry but they could not possibly take the risk of being at the loss if a fire occurred and the companies were insolvent. He certainly thought in the interest of public bodies in Ireland they should be told which were the unsound ones and to get an opportunity of reconsidering their position.

replied in regard to the remarks of the Deputy for Tipperary that what attracted his attention to these societies was the fact that he saw one company advertising they had received insurances from public bodies and he communicated with the Ministry for Local Government. There was one company, as far as he was concerned, as sound as any company in England. That company was not concerned in any way with these societies.

With regard to the Sinn Féin Bank, the people who were hit were the same type. The man who had saved £70 in the past 10 or 15 years was the same as the man who was going to save £70 by insuring for the next ten years.

There was no comparison whatever between English societies and Irish societies. The former could do all sorts of other business, and did business on such a scale as operating overnight. The day's collection would be lent overnight and a considerable revenue derived from these sums they got in in one day.

His main desire was to save their own credit as a nation, to save the credit of the Dáil and to save their own people who were putting their small savings week by week into these societies. Anything done would be done with the full approval of the Ministry. When he wrote his report he was unaware of the particular situation of one society, and having knowledge of that now the matter was more pressing and he would recommend the Ministry to take action within the next week.

Another great difference between the English and Irish societies was that the English societies did not compete against one another. They left whole areas to each other by agreement, which meant the cost of collection was greatly reduced and when compared with the cost in Ireland was as low as one tenth of the cost in Ireland. It was that cost made all the difference between solvency and insolvency. Some of the Tables were all right but others were not sound, that was to say the Table at its termination could not show the necessary profit for the collection of the premium and the working of the society for the time it operated. The matter was very urgent and he would like there should be no public discussion over it as it would be disastrous to have it in public.

He did not want to single out any society, but he had been asked by some of the public bodies whether a certain company was an Irish company and could be said to be solvent, and he answered that question in the affirmative.

Deputy Cosgrave had made one point of extra importance. It had been said to him that some of the societies invested in the capital of companies on whose shares there was a liability. That, he said, was not an investment but a loss and they might be called upon to meet that liability when they could not. No bank would advance a penny on security of that kind.

thought that the amount shown for Defence, £39,000, was rather small and thought that a larger sum should have been given. He would like to get details. He also pointed out there was no estimate for the coming half-year.

asked for written notice of that question. Items would be available on Monday morning. The reason no estimate was shown was that Defence was covered by the balance of a Vote available in America. It was explained at the last Dáil meeting. The position was that out of the Vote of 500,000 dollars, there was a balance left of 289,000 dollars which would cover all requirements for the coming half year.

said that any sum of money they could profitably spend in Defence they were willing to spend it.

Ceist curtha agus aontuithe.

Barr
Roinn