Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 23 Aug 1921

Vol. S No. 5

MOTION RE ALTERATION OF CONSTITUTION

MINISTER FOR DEFENCE, C. BRUGHA

, presented a motion for alteration of the Constitution in following terms:

The Ministry shall consist of the President of the Republic who shall also be Prime Minister and be elected by Dáil Éireann, and not more than nine Executive officers including:—

A Secretary of Foreign Affairs

A Secretary of Home Affairs

A Secretary of National Defence

A Secretary of Finance

each of whom the President shall nominate and have power to dismiss.

I shall propose at the next meeting of An Dáil that clause (b), Article 2, of Constitution shall read as above.

Signed CATHAL BRUGHA 20/7/21.

He said they understood it was necessary to improve it. He formally proposed its adoption.

P. Ó MÁILLE

seconded.

PRESIDENT

said they had found this proposal necessary from experience. The point about "President of the Republic" was very important. Though the office had been accepted it had never been constitutionally created. As a matter of fact the President was President not of the Republic but of the Ministry of Dáil Eireann. He was not talking so much to that point as to the question of the Cabinet. The old Cabinet representing 11 Departments was altogether too large. He believed even in peace times work could be best done by an executive body of small numbers. He was anxious to secure an executive called a Cabinet consisting of the President and six Secretaries of State, those four that are mentioned on the paper, and two others, Local Government and a Secretary responsible for Economic Affairs whose work would be to combine Agriculture, Trade, Fisheries and Labour Departments and be answerable to the Cabinet for their responsibilities. They would need outside that executive separate heads for Agriculture, Publicity, Trade and so on, who would be extra-Cabinet Ministers.

MINISTER FOR DEFENCE

agreed to alter his motion to read six Secretaries of State.

PRESIDENT

said what he wanted to get was that certain unnecessary Departments should not be inside the Cabinet and that the Cabinet should consist of the President and not more than nine Secretaries of State who would be collectively responsible to the House. The other heads of Departments would be responsible to the Cabinet and to the House.

P.J. WARD

asked was this the old Constitution.

PRESIDENT

said this was the original Constitution, but when he came from Lincoln he wanted to have a large Cabinet. They were working under peace conditions then. Now they had experience of working those minor Departments and they found they could group them together under one head.

MR. GAVAN DUFFY

said he wished to enter a protest against the dual position of the President under this change: he would be President of the Republic and Prime Minister as well. No member of the Dáil pretended he was elected to elect a President of the Republic. It was a dangerous precedent to establish that your President of the Republic should also be President of the Ministry and one it might be very hard to change. He suggested to the mover of the motion he would attain his object by leaving things as they were. The making of this alteration would probably advertise the fact that they had a President of the Republic when they had not. He asked the Minister for Defence to withdraw so much of his motion.

MINISTER FOR DEFENCE

replied that he had no objection to withdrawing it if he was shown a good reason for so doing but the member for S. Dublin (G. Duffy) did not state any good reason.

PRESIDENT

said he was fully alive to the point that this was the original Constitution of this body and therefore bringing in a question which affected the constitution of the country. Why the matter came up now was that the title had been referred to when formal documents had to be signed; when he had to state when and where and how he was made President he found that no such officer had been created. If they could turn it round stating "the President who was, until a Constitution be brought up, to act as President of the Republic."

MINISTER FOR DEFENCE

said he did not think that necessary at all. Under present conditions they were all one body here. When the Republic was recognised they certainly would have two bodies in the Dáil. That being so and seeing that they were supposed to have a President and according to this thing which passed as a Constitution but in reality was not a Constitution they had not a President, he was merely trying to improve this Constitution. When the Republic was recognised they would draw up a regular Constitution. From what he saw under the powers given to them they were entitled to elect a President.

DEPUTY S.T. Ó CEALLAIGH

said he was one of the Members responsible for drawing up this Constitution which was all done in a hurry for the first Dáil. There was no time for the necessary consideration to be given to it. The fact that the Minister for Defence was trying to rectify an error in it was to his credit. The Constitution was only provisional and this proposed amendment was also only provisional and would not constitute a precedent.

He agreed with the member for South Dublin (Gavan Duffy) that the President of the Republic should not be President of the House. He thought they might let it pass on the understanding that it did not create a precedent and it was not to entitle the President, whoever he might be, to claim it afterwards as an established precedent.

PRESIDENT

said a suggestion had been made to him which might get over the difficulty. It was "that the Ministry shall consist of the President who shall also be Prime Minister".

DEPUTY JOS. MCBRIDE

suggested that the Minister for Agriculture and other Ministers outside the Cabinet should be described as Under-Secretaries.

DR. FERRAN

said the wording of the motion should be altered to include two extra Secretaries of State—Secretary of Local Government and Secretary of Economic Affairs as agreed to.

SPEAKER

said he would then put the motion, as amended by the mover, and seconded, leaving out the words "of the Republic" and including Sec. of Local Government and Sec. of Economic Affairs.

PRESIDENT

said they would have to get some term to cover the "Ministry". If the Dáil passed the principle, the Cabinet would be able to get some term that would cover extra-Cabinet Ministers.

DEPUTY MRS. O'CALLAGHAN

regretted that the only woman member of the Cabinet would not be given Cabinet rank in the new arrangement.

D. KENT

said he was not satisfied with the wording. They were here since 1916 as a Republican Government and he suggested the word "of the Republic" be left in after "President".

PRESIDENT

said somebody suggested "State Executive" instead of Ministry. He considered that was a good phrase. The Ministers outside the Cabinet would be regarded as Directors so that the Secretaries of State are the Executive Officers and the Secretaries without "State" would be the extra-Ministers.

GAVAN DUFFY

pointed out the drawback in that was that the executive power was still vested in the Ministers.

PRESIDENT

said that could be overcome if "State Executive" was put wherever they had Ministry in the past.

P.J. WARD

asked was a Vice-President included in the Cabinet.

PRESIDENT

said there was no Vice-President. It was passed that the Cabinet Ministers would nominate somebody to replace the President in case he was not available. That was a war measure. It was referred to under paragraph "G" in the Constitution.

A. GRIFFITH

explained his position was that he was Secretary for Home Affairs when the President went to America. He (Mr. Griffith) was nominated to replace the President in his absence and when Mr. Stack came out of jail he asked him to take up the work of Home Affairs Department.

PRESIDENT

proposed if the Dáil passed the principle of the motion, viz. that the Cabinet consists of the President who shall be Prime Minister and a certain number of Secretaries of State, a certain Executive, call it what they liked, that that would be the body that would have collective responsibility. There would be Ministers outside that body that would not have collective responsibility.

MISS MACSWINEY

agreed with Mrs. O'Callaghan that it was regrettable the one lady member of the Cabinet should be put out, and it was creating a precedent. She suggested the formation of a war Cabinet of six.

PRESIDENT

explained this was an attempt to group a number of economic Departments together. They had certain things to discuss together and they wanted one person who would co-ordinate these and be responsible to the Cabinet. It was an attempt to work with a smaller number of Cabinet Ministers.

MINISTER FOR DEFENCE

remarked no one knew yet who was going to be on the new Cabinet. It might be all ladies (laughter).

Motion as amended put and agreed subject to amendment of the wording by the Ministry and resubmission to the Dáil for approval.