Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 25 Aug 1921

Vol. S No. 6

MOTION AS TO FORMATION OF GRAND COMMITTEE OF THE DÁIL

PRESIDENT

proposed that to provide for occasions when the Dáil could not meet as a Dáil a Grand Committee of the Dáil be formed by each constituency selecting one of its members to represent them in the Dáil.

There were, he said, about 40 constituencies and if they had 40 persons in addition to the Ministry they would have a body which would keep a check on the Cabinet. If the House was willing to delegate to a committee consisting of one member from each constituency instead of the number at present it would enable them to carry on in times of distress.

MINISTER FOR LOCAL GOVERNMENT, L. COSGRAVE

, seconded.

P.J. BYRNE

asked if the members for each constituency were to meet and select one of their number.

PRESIDENT

replied, exactly. His idea was to have one member representing each constituency and they could make any arrangement they liked as to whether they should have a permanent representative or chose one for each meeting.

LIAM DE RÓISTE

asked would the representative carry the voting power of his group.

PRESIDENT

said he would be inclined to have one representative, one vote.

S. FITZGERALD (Cork)

pointed out that in Co. Cork the eastern constituency had eight members while the western one had only three and it would be unfair to the eastern group to give them only one representative.

M.P. COLLIVET

suggested that a meeting of this committee should not be taken as a meeting of the Dáil but that their decisions should be ratified by the Dáil.

PRESIDENT

said the member's for Limerick (M.P. Collivet) suggestion meant the committee would meet only in a consultative capacity. That would not be exactly sufficient for their purpose. His idea was that the committee should have legislative powers. He did not see how a body the size of the Dáil was going to meet in any place during war times. They would require no powers to bring a consultative committee together. The point was, was the Dáil willing to delegate its own powers to this proposed committee.

SEÁN MILROY

thought it was an extraordinary suggestion to ask members of this Dáil to extinguish themselves. He was not convinced that this was the wisest way to provide for smaller meetings of the Dáil.

LIAM DE RÓISTE (Member for Cork)

said it was not necessary at all. Stress of circumstances in the past forced the Ministry to do things which the Dáil as a Dáil did not like. The Ministry now had powers to deal with any circumstances that occurred.

MINISTER FOR LABOUR, COUNTESS MARKIEVICZ

, said she would like to support that view. The members chosen might not be able to get to Dublin at all.

PRESIDENT

said it would save discussion if he made it clear what he had in view. He was trying to prevent them from effacing themselves altogether. Supposing the Dáil could not meet for four or five months it would be a satisfaction to five or six of them who would be here in Dublin taking these powers to feel that they had at least a body that could outvote them. So they were looking for a check committee of the Dáil, but at the same time such a committee would be of little use unless it had the legislative powers of the Dáil. If the House would not accept this proposal the only other thing that could be done was to risk calling the full meetings of the Dáil which would endanger the whole administration or else go on without meetings and risk getting out of touch with the country which might very well happen.

S. MACENTEE

supported the President's motion.

GAVAN DUFFY

thought the proposal ought to be looked upon with the greatest suspicion. He was prepared to support the motion subject to modification. It meant the Ministry would do what they liked and the Dáil would not be able to stop them. Naturally the Ministry would come to the next meeting with a substantial block of members behind them. One thing he objected to was that the next actual meeting of the Dáil should be forbidden to go into the last business. He thought the President should agree to have the committee consultative.

J.J. WALSH

strongly supported the proposal. All the members had a sporting chance of having an opportunity of keeping in touch with affairs.

Dáil adjourned on motion of President till 4 p.m.

Dáil resumed business at 4.15 p.m.

PRESIDENT

said he would like the members to know that he proposed the motion to form a Grand Committee simply for a discussion. He was not pleased with the proposal because he was afraid any arrangement they could make would be unsatisfactory. He was not bringing it up as a Ministerial proposition at all. If they would not accept some such proposal as this to put a standing committee to revise and criticise the work of the Ministry they would have to let the Ministry work without any supervision at all. The machinery for setting up such a standing committee was for them to form. The larger the area from which members would be selected the better.

SEÁN MILROY

said he saw plainly the necessity for it, but to keep in accordance with its constituencies it should be kept on the basis of a committee and he had drafted this motion:

"That a Grand Committee of An Dáil comprised of 10 members for Munster, 10 members for Leinster, 10 members for Connaught and 10 members for Ulster be formed."

PRESIDENT

said he would be quite willing to withdraw his proposal in favour of that if they would make it say about eight members per province.

Original motion withdrawn.

S. DWYER

seconded Seán Milroy's proposal.

JOS. MCGUINNESS

thought the Ministry should be empowered to go on and when they saw any necessity for advice they should call on the members nearest them.

JOS. MACDONAGH

was opposed to giving any legislative power to such a proposed committee.

DAVID KENT

was in favour of the President's proposal.

GAVAN DUFFY

proposed an amendment to add "that all the decisions of the committee of the Dáil so constituted shall have effect only until the next meeting of the Dáil."

PRESIDENT

accepted this amendment but said to meet the question of proportion he was trying to find out the members for each province. Connaught would be 7, Munster 10, Leinster 11, Ulster 2 according to present proportions. That would give 30. Would the member who proposed some numbers accept that?

SEÁN MILROY

replied, certainly, he would accept those figures.

SEÁN MACENTEE

proposed that the representation of this Grand Committee be by constituency and that each constituency would be entitled to have one member on the Grand Committee.

P.J. BYRNE

seconded the amendment proposed by the member for S. Dublin (Gavan Duffy).

SPEAKER

said it had been accepted.

M.P. COLLIVET

said that meant all decisions had to be brought up at next meeting of the Dáil.

SPEAKER

replied, yes, and said Mr. MacEntee's proposal dropped as it was not seconded.

He then put the motion: "In addition to the Ministry that a Grand Committee of the Dáil composed of 10 members from Munster, 11 members from Leinster, 3 from Ulster and 7 from Connaught selected by the members of each province may be called together to act for the Dáil at such times as is not possible for the Dáil to meet as a whole provided that all decisions of the committee so constituted shall have effect only to the next meeting of the Dáil".

P.J. BYRNE

asked would that be a permanent body for the whole period of the war.

PRESIDENT

said that would be for the provinces to decide.

Ceist curtha agus aontuithe.

PRESIDENT

suggested it would be well to get the representatives of the provinces to elect the members for this Grand Committee before they separated.

It was then agreed to make the selection on Friday after the election of the Ministers.