The first business is the appointment of a Deputy Speaker.
APPOINTMENT OF DEPUTY SPEAKER.
I propose, a Chinn Chomhairle, that you yourself be appointed as Deputy Speaker. You presided over this meeting for the last two days very efficiently. I do not think anybody could say otherwise, with fairness.
seconded.
Last night I proposed that we should take up the appointment of a Deputy Speaker and the President suggested it should be this morning. He has proposed as Deputy Speaker a member of the House who is not definitely opposed to the Treaty. It is usual, I think, in these cases—at least, if there are two parties in the House—if the Speaker is on one side that the Deputy Speaker be chosen by courtesy from the other side, it being understood that both should be non-partisan. Hence, if the appointment had been reached last night, I would have proposed Mr. Seán T.O Ceallaigh. He was to be appointed at the first Session of the Dáil—as a matter of fact, it was intended by a number of members to propose him as he had been the first Ceann Comhairle of the Dáil—but his activities and duties in Paris prevented him from being present. I asked him to withdraw his nomination, which he did, at my request. I feel that as he is now back and as the understanding with me then was that if he was able to come back that would not prevent his occupying the Chair again if he was nominated, I think it is only fair that his name should be put forward and I propose him.
seconded.
ACTING SPEAKER:
Without further discussion on the matter, I think it is better to take a vote and finish it.
A Chinn Comhairle, I am going to vote against your election as Deputy Speaker on the grounds of your unfairness and partisanship in this Chair. On the first day's meeting, upon the debate on the Estimates, I rose to speak to an amendment, as I was perfectly entitled to do, in accordance with the Standing Orders. You, sir, ruled me out. Then I challenged your ruling and asked you upon what grounds you gave it. You said you did it "in this special case." Now, Sir, I had spoken previously upon the motion. I had only spoken once upon that motion and I was perfectly entitled to speak upon that motion once. I was again perfectly entitled to speak upon the amendment once. Your ruling, Sir, could not be sustained by a previous precedent created in this House. You had, in order to justify what was manifestly unfair, to manufacture an excuse which could not be sustained by you or by any other tribunal. Therefore, upon those grounds, and, further, upon the action which you took last night when you allowed a motion that to-day's meeting be held in the Mansion House to be disposed of by a mere trick, I oppose your election. You yourself suggested that you would first take the hour for the adjournment and when that was done you would discuss the place in which we were next to meet. When we, accepting your ruling, and thinking that you yourself would see it carried out in fairness, agreed to that procedure you allowed the House immediately afterwards to be adjourned without the place for the resumption of the Session being fixed. I hold that you did both of those things simply with the desire to benefit and for the advantage of that side which you are so closely and intimately associated with. Therefore, I say you are incompetent to sit as Chairman in this House.
ACTING SPEAKER:
That is quite incorrect. A Deputy may have any opinion he likes of me, but I deny that I was actuated by the motives he has attributed to me.
A Chinn Comhairle, I have received a letter from Mr. MacNeill which I should like to communicate to the House. He writes to me about other matters and in the course of the letter he says: "Will you kindly explain to the President and any Deputy who is concerned that continuous insomnia renders me unable to stand the strain of presiding at the Dáil meetings at present." I do not know whether it means that he intends to resign. At all events it means that for some time we shall not have our Ceann Comhairle. Under these circumstances, it might be that the question will arise not merely of appointing a Deputy Chairman but a Chairman also, and I think it would be well that the whole question should be adjourned until we ascertain Mr. MacNeill's intention. I think the other side would agree, if there is to be a resignation from the Chair, that these two matters would be dealt with at the same time.
Certainly, I am quite satisfied.
In view of the statement I made yesterday, in reference to Mr. MacNeill's failure to give any explanation of his absence here, I desire now to express my regret that I should have suggested that the censure of the House should be voted on him. The telegram which was sent the first morning seemed to me to treat this Assembly with levity, and having got no explanation for that day, or the following day, I must say, I felt more or less that it was his intention to disregard these preceedings. That is why I said what I said. I regret as much as anybody that Mr. MacNeill should suffer from insomnia, or any other disability, which would not give us the advantage of his presence here.
, speaking in Irish, moved that the meeting of the Dáil should be continued in the Mansion House.
On a point of order I suggest that the proposal is quite out of order.
ACTING SPEAKER:
In order to be absolutely fair about the matter, I wish also to explain that I thought the place of meeting might be by mutual agreement arranged. Now I intend to let the motion which has been proposed by Cathal Brugha be taken. His motion is that after dinner to-day the Dáil meets in the Mansion House. Is there any seconder for that motion?
I would like to second that. In connection with it, I would like to know if the official report of these proceedings is to be published. The reason I am in favour of the Mansion House now and in favour of the publication of the official reports is that the reports in the newspapers are quite inaccurate. I have noticed several inaccuracies already. I do not think it worth while to refer to them. One inaccuracy has been pointed out here this morning. It is in leaded type in the Independent newspaper in regard to a statement of mine. I am reported as having said, in answer to a question by Deputy Hogan, which probably was a rhetorical question on his part—“Did they believe it was a sovereign assembly?”—“I would be the first to sweep you and men like you out of a sovereign Assembly.” What I did say, and what I have been trying to say, is if we want to have order in the country and ordered Government, we must recognise that this is the supreme and sovereign Parliament of the nation during the interval that must elapse before the elections. Unless you stand on that principle, I see no principle on which we can stand, and when the Provisional Government was put up, or various members of it, as being superior to the authority of this Dáil, which is the Government of the Republic, I questioned it every time and tried to make it clear that we, anyhow, regard the permission of the actions of the Provisional Government as coming from the majority of this Dáil. I said that were it not for that majority they would not be allowed to function. Neither would they. And what I said yesterday was that if they were not protected by the right which the majority here gave them that I for one—whilst I have been doing everything that one person can do, and any influence I have I have exercised it to see that any authority that is derived from this House is respected—would be the first to say that any definitely usurping authority should be swept out of existence. I did not of course say what is put down here.
The necessity, therefore, for full reports is very clear, and the only way in which we can be protected—and we do need protection at the present time—is to meet in presence of the public. At the Ard Fheis an attempt was made to misrepresent me, but the Ard Fheis was a large body and they could deal with it. The public could deal with it and they did deal with it. Here we have a very small body, and it is necessary, at least when we have no newspapers that would give impartial reports, that we should have the public present.
May I ask what Mr. De Valera said exactly —what he said yesterday?
I do not deliver what I say from notes. I know definitely what I said was not this.
ACTING SPEAKER:
There is a proposition that after luncheon to-day the Dáil meets in the Mansion House. That is proposed and seconded.
I wonder if there is sufficient business to warrant a transfer. Is it worth while changing?
I would like to ask what is the object of this migration from here to the Mansion House. Have we not facilities here to complete our business? What is the necessity of giving the officials of this House all the trouble and inconvenience of transferring their requirements from here to the Mansion House? I can see no reason whatever for such a change. Certainly no reason has been given yet by either the proposer or the seconder which warrants this proposal getting the support of any section of this House. I can not see, even from their own party point of view, what they expect to gain from that. If a motion that upsets the arrangements of this House is put forward, unless it is supported by some serious reason for such a change—and certainly neither the proposer nor the seconder has offered one single reason why we should transfer our business from here——
To prevent gross misrepresentation.
I would like to know how a change of venue from here to the Mansion House is going to prevent misrepresentation—gross or otherwise— which is alleged to be carried out here. I would like to know how you are going to avoid misrepresentation in the Mansion House. To save the Republic, I am informed. I did not think that saving the Republic was a laughing matter for the Deputy from Cork or the Deputy from Waterford. I think it is not a matter for levity. We are told this is the sovereign assembly of the Irish nation, and at a time when we were all hoping that this useless and exasperating exchange of personalities was beginning to cease, a very important member of this assembly rises and moves that the business be adjourned from here to the Mansion House—to avoid gross misrepresentation Mr. De Valera says—to save the Republic the seconder of the motion says.
On a point of order, I must make this correction. I speak in English now for the benefit of the Deputy who made that remark —I made no such statement. He referred to levity. The cause of the laugh was the magnificent ignorance of the Irish language displayed by this Deputy and his pretence that he understood what had been said.
Would the member for Waterford say what he did say?
I am not here to educate the Deputy from Tyrone.
At least, we can deal with the actual matter and avoid wasting time about what are the eccentricities of the member for Waterford.
The eccentricity is the consistent speaking of Irish.
I have the permission of the noble Roman—the Deputy for Roscommon—to continue. So I shall continue. I want to get at the real serious business behind this proposal. We are asked to adjourn from here to the Mansion House to avoid gross misrepresentation. These are the words of the proposer of the motion. I ask you how is the change from here to the Mansion House going to stop misrepresentation?
Because they would not dare to do it in face of the public. They would see it too soon.
And how are you going to have the public in the Mansion House, any more than here? How are you going to make arrangements between now and the afternoon for the proper admission of the public? I take it that we have some regard for the dignity of this Assembly, and that we do not want to have in the Mansion House partisan crowds that will disturb the procedure of the assembly. I am concerned with the proper procedure and with getting the actual work before this Dáil through in order that those who have the very serious work of getting stability into the affairs of the Irish nation might be relieved from the distractions which they are subjected to here and that they might get on with the nation's work. I say this attempt to transfer the business is simply an attempt to interfere with that serious work, and those concerned have a serious responsibility if they persist in it.
I was the Deputy that was speaking when the interruption which Deputy de Valera referred to occurred. I have no idea now what was said, and I could not have any idea and the Press could not have a proper idea of what was said, because there was a constant stream of interruptions going on the whole time. It is perfectly clear that that is the reason for the inaccurate Press reports. It is quite impossible, I think, to have accurate reports, if irrelevant observations and interruptions are being made from all parts of the House, and it is equally clear that going to the Mansion House is not going to improve that in the slightest extent. I suggest to the House that if they want accurate Press reports they should listen to the speakers and allow the Press to take a fair note of what is said.
I wish to press the motion that we adjourn to the Mansion House. I do so for many reasons. One is the gross inaccuracies that the Press are printing about the minority. We were charged here yesterday. One of the charges made was that a motion I brought on was a dishonest motion. The newspapers got hold of that, but not one word of what I said in explanation was presented. I say we want to get publicity in everything we do. We want to let the people see that we are acting honestly by them. We want the people to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I support the motion, that we adjourn to the Mansion House.
I support the motion that we go to the Mansion House as I have always been in favour of open meetings—meetings not being held in secret—unless there is some vital necessity for it. I support it because I think the Irish people have a right to hear what their Deputies are saying. They have as much right to hear as the foreign Press. I myself am not afraid of being accurately heard by the people of Ireland. I am not afraid of anything I may say being repeated through the length and breadth of this island. I cannot conceive why the opposition are so afraid of the public at this moment. I am rather sorry to see Irishmen putting up such a nervous front at this moment. I believe myself that it is in the interests of not only peace but truth that the public should be allowed into this meeting. I have no fear of the House being packed, because, personally, I would not take advantage of any such thing myself. I find it hard to imagine that even the Treaty people would go around packing the House with people to make a row there. Personally I would willingly give a guarantee that anyone I gave a ticket to or asked permission for would not make any disturbance. The Sinn Féin proceedings were very orderly, and it was almost an open meeting. There were so many people there—3,000 of them—that it was almost a public meeting. Here we have a very small number and we have a malicious Press who are misrepresenting every statement we make and using it for party purposes. Therefore, I say in the interests of truth and for the interests of Ireland, which must always be the interests of truth as long as we are true to the old traditions of the Fianna of Ireland and of every great Irishman in the past, the public ought to be allowed to be present at our meetings and know the lies their newspapers are circulating. I would like to point out how absurd it is to talk of the paraphenalia to be carried across. What are three ink bottles and a few pieces of paper? I think Deputy Milroy could carry over the lot himself.
Personally, I have no objection whatsoever to going anywhere where the public would hear us, but I cannot understand why, on what should be the last day of this Session, we should be asked to go to the Mansion House and throw it open to the public, without any arrangements having been made for admission, by ticket or otherwise. It is very important that the public should know some of the things. For instance, I would like to have the public and the workers of Dublin— one particular section of them—present to hear Count Plunkett talking of his anxiety for labour representation. I would like them to hear many other things said in that way. I am perfectly serious on this point. This is the last day and I am at a loss to know why a motion such as this should come up. It is not serious, with all due respects to the mover and seconder. I wish to repeat what Deputy Hogan said. If the members on both sides would simply refrain from interrupting the speakers the Press would have an opportunity of reporting the proceedings correctly.
I would like to know if anybody here has been in communication with the Lord Mayor regarding the use of the Mansion House. The usual procedure with regard to the letting of the Mansion House is that a record is kept of lettings, or engagements or anything of that sort. Nobody, that I know of, has made any enquiry of me—and I am acting as Deputy for the Lord Mayor—as to whether or not the Mansion House is available. You had from last evening and I spoke of it last evening.
Another thing I have got to say is if people are anxious for publicity I think they ought to get it. Document No. 2 will give it. This is all nonsense, this talk of publicity. You are afraid of the public. We told you that before and you know it, and the public will give you very shortly what their impression is about it.
Is the Mansion House available for the evening?
I move that the question be put.
Before the motion is put, I would ask the Deputy Lord Mayor whether the Mansion House is available.
I do not carry the books of the Mansion House in my pocket. I would have to make enquiries.
Is there any Parliament in the world that is held in a place where the public is not admitted?
The Deputy for College Green asked is there any Parliament in the world that excludes the public. I hope there is not. But I will answer his question by asking him if there is any Parliament in any part of the world that allows itself to run the risk of being swamped by having twenty times the number of the public that it has Deputies.
We can easily arrange the number of the public to come in.
Of course you will; that is the idea.
It was in the interests of the decorum of this House that we should not allow large bodies of people to come into our assembly: so that the House becomes a little minority in its own assembly. If the Deputy for College Green and his friends will find a place where you can conveniently admit the public in reasonable numbers I am sure there would not be the slightest objection on this side.
Is there any Parliament that ever closured its Estimates?
I hope that the Dublin public will be complimented by the slur that was cast on them by the gentleman who has dared to insinuate that the Dublin public would interfere with the proceedings of the Dáil. When they know what he has said they will likely know him better than they do at present. It is quite evident that the acoustic properties here in these two rooms are such that what is said cannot be heard. I was speaking myself to several members of the Press after the last Session and they told me they could not hear what was being said. Therefore, I am quite satisfied, so far as the reporters are concerned, that it was not their fault that misrepresentation has been carried on in the Dublin Press. But on the other hand, it is quite clear that some of it has been done. I will just prove it to you. I put several questions to the Minister for Defence yesterday. When he answered, I put a supplementary question and I purposely prefaced my remarks, in putting that supplementary question, by saying that, personally, I paid no attention whatever to what was said by British politicians in the British House of Commons, but that my attention had been drawn to certain statements made by a British Minister a day or two previously— statements which appeared in the Dublin daily papers. I purposely prefaced my remarks by saying that I myself paid no attention to what these people said, but that, unfortunately, a section of the Irish public did. Consequently, I asked the Minister for Defence to say what truth, if any, was in certain statements made by Mr. Churchill. Now, the remarks I made at first are not included at all in the report and the answer given by the Minister for Defence to me would seem to be a contemptuous one. In justice to him, I must say he did not answer contemptuously at all. I was perfectly satisfied with the answer he gave. That is one of the reasons why I suggest that we should go to the Mansion House. The acoustic properties of the place are much better than here. Everybody could hear what was said and when there is misrepresentation in the Press the public who would be present will understand the game that is being played. Moreover, the atmosphere of this place is such that upon my word —I do not know whether it seems so to everyone—in this room, at times, it seems stifling. Others have complained of the same thing. I suppose the place is not intended for such a large number of people.
Another thing. It was the custom always to have the meetings of the Dáil in the Mansion House. Owing to the time of tension that prevailed when the Treaty was to be discussed by the Dáil, it was agreed, on both sides, that we should come here and that the public should not be admitted. That time is now over and there is no reason, therefore, why we should not revert to the former practice. This matter of going to the Mansion House was referred to by one of the Deputies from Roscommon at the first meeting here, the day before yesterday. Consequently, there was plenty of time to make preparations. Even at the present time, in the ordinary way, we would not come to the second Session until 4 o'clock and it is only 12 o'clock now. We have four hours to arrange it. If there is not another assembly of some other body to take place in the Mansion House. I do not really see why the thing is not practicable.
We are here now since 10.55 a.m.
Is this speech in order? Have you not ruled that the debate is over?
ACTING SPEAKER:
I desire to put the question and get rid of this business.
Question put: Tá, 40; Nil, 49.
Motion declared lost.
ACTING SPEAKER:
I would ask the President formally to dispose of the first motion (Appointment of Deputy Speaker).
Motion by agreement postponed.