The next matter to come under discussion is the report from the Department of Home Affairs.
DEPARTMENT OF HOME AFFAIRS.
I beg to move the adoption of that report.
I desire to second that.
Does any Deputy desire to speak on this report?
I wish to do so, a Chinn Comhairle. I want to ask the Minister of Home Affairs a question with regard to Republican Courts. I understand it is the policy of the Government to maintain the Republican Courts and see that they are carried on, during the present time at any rate, in the same manner as before the discussion on the Treaty. Now, some one has sent me a cutting from a newspaper published in Co. Wicklow in connection with the calling of a Court of which Mr. Joseph Lynch is Registrar. The advertisement for this Court is headed "Rialtas Sealadach na hÉireann." Is that done with the knowledge or sanction of the Minister of Home Affairs, or is it in accord with his policy, as agreed in this House, that the Republican Courts would not function under any other authority?
In reply to that question, I may mention that the Republican Courts are functioning not alone to the same extent as in the period mentioned, but to a tenfold greater extent, as is plainly shown by the Circuit list published with the report. I know nothing of the particular case you refer to, but if you give me notice, I will have enquiries made.
Those Courts do not function under Rialtas Sealadach na hÉireann.
Tá aon cheist amháin agam le chur agus is mar gheall ar an Píléirí é sin. I regret, a Chinn Comhairle, that the question in regard to police matters has not been more satisfactorily dealt with in the report from the Home Affairs Department. In view of the circumstances of the country at the moment, the police question is one of the most serious, if not the most serious, especially in certain areas. Under the old system, the most the Dáil was able to do in the matter of providing an effective police force was to supply one officer for a Brigade area. In the meantime, events have taken place which have removed any other police force, or any other method of supplying protection for life and property. It seems to me that no matter what limitations may be urged, in the matter of dealing with the necessity for an effective police force, at least Dáil Éireann could have taken some steps which would have been an earnest to the country that they were serious in the matter of doing all they could as a Government to supply the people of the country with effective police protection. I would like the Minister of Home Affairs, in his reply, to let the House know what steps, if any, he has taken to deal with that. I instance as my particular concern, the city of Cork. What protection has he given or does he propose to give, to the citizens of Cork now more than they had, say, two or three years ago? Does he think that one police officer for the Brigade area, which includes the City of Cork, as well as a huge area outside the city of Cork, is sufficient to constitute an effective police force?
I would like to know from the Minister of Home Affairs if he devotes any of his time and uses his Department to try and force citizens into the British Courts. If the Courts of the country—the Courts of Dáil Éireann—are functioning, why is he trying to drive people unwillingly into British Courts? Why does he not allow them to come into and appear in the Irish Courts? I refer now to an instruction he has issued to Registrars in the country, to the effect that in certain cases they must go into British Courts. I presume the answer of the Minister of Home Affairs will be that there is no legislation to deal with the matter. Against that, I put before the House the case of a gentleman named Mr. Meredith, who I understand was appointed a Republican agent and who was, I believe —at least he was before the Treaty— functioning as a Republican Judge through the country. I would like to know under what authority this gentleman recently acted in Waterford. Although there was no legislation or no provision made by this Assembly, and nothing to enable him to deal with it, there was a particular case which he proposed to deal with in a certain way at Waterford a short time ago. In conjunction, I presume, with the High Sheriff—probably the British High Sheriff—or by some other method, a Grand Jury was called. That was one of the systems we were supposed to think so ill of in times gone by. A Grand Jury was called, and, worse than that, it was publicly stated by the Republican Judge in this so-called Republican Court that this was a Free State Court functioning in Waterford. I am mentioning that particular case on the grounds that if the only argument that can meet the question of why people are being drawn against their will into British Courts is that there was no legislation by this assembly, what rule or what legislation gives permission to persons to call a Grand Jury—recalling what was an aristocratic system and trying to perpetuate it in the country.
In addition to this, there were a number of complaints about the Courts. There were a good many in the area I come from. It seems to be the set policy of certain Judges in certain areas that the Republican Courts should not continue to exist, but should make room for some other system that may come along afterwards. With regard to the policing of the country, the remarks of the Lord Mayor of Cork could well apply to other parts of the country. Trouble has arisen also about decrees. The reason in regard to the policing of the country is because the police force has been disbanded to make room, I suppose, for some other force that the Minister is trying to bring into existence.
Now, I would like to ask a question in regard to the appointment of officials in the Home Affairs Office. I would like to know whether those appointments that have been made by the Minister, whether they be either judges or others, temporary or otherwise have been permitted by the Dáil? I would like also, if it is relevant, to ask the Minister of Home Affairs has the system of calling a Grand Jury been brought to a head by correspondence received by him from the British High Sheriff?
Ba mhaith liom fios a fháil a bhfuil sé fíor nuair a toghadh na Breithimh ar pháidh mór, ar tugadh cead dóibh dul isteach i gcúirt Shasana i dtír seo agus cúiseanna do phléidh ann. I wish to ask the Minister of Home Affairs is it true that the judges that were appointed as Republican Judges at a large salary were given permission to practise in English Courts. If that is so, why has not this House been informed about it? That is a point that should be made clear.
I would like to say a few words on this report of the Minister of Home Affairs. A great deal of trouble in the country is caused through the mismanagement of the Home Affairs Department. A lot of this trouble arises through the Courts. I am getting letters every day from my constituents who have been served with writs and processes through the old English Courts. Now, you all remember that at one of our meetings previous to the signing of the Articles of Agreement, we definitely decided we could not allow two Governments or two Courts to function. There could be only one Government and one Court we could recognise. At the time the Minister of Home Affairs took office, everything was about to work smoothly. We had our Republican Courts functioning smoothly —local district and circuit Courts. Since he has taken over office, there has been a very noticeable change. In Fermoy, Midleton, Youghal, and other districts around, summonses have been served on Jurors to attend those Courts under the old English system. There are instances of where a Recorder came to these Courts, but he could not sit there because he would not be recognised and those in charge of the peace of the district had to tell him they could not recognise any foreign Court system. Now, a lot of business which could be done under the Republican Courts has been in arrears. No one knows better than the Minister of Home Affairs that if he wants to carry out his duties of keeping order in the country properly, there is only one way of doing it; that is, by having one law alone and that law administered in such a way that any decrees given by these Courts can be carried out. As regards the old Recorders and the old English judges, the Minister knows very well that in the south of Ireland at least, they could never function and never will. If he wants to prevent further trouble, he will revert to the proper order of things and prevent this business and allow no Courts but the Republican Courts.
I wish to draw the attention of the Minister of Home Affairs to the fact that considerable dissatisfaction has been caused by the delay in the visit of Circuit Court Judges in certain areas. In some instances the Circuit Judge is due over three months and a great lot of inconvenience results. The Home Office knows well that Cork City District Court was amongst the first established in Ireland, and it has been the most effective and most efficient in Ireland. Cases are ready in that area for over four months and some important cases are hanging over. People are declaring that they will have to take the case elsewhere if the Circuit Courts are not held soon. This delay is encouraging people to take cases to the British Courts instead of to the Republican Courts in the Cork area.
The President of the Dáil gave an undertaking to keep all the Departments of the Dáil functioning, it will be recollected. At the last session of the Dáil, I proposed a resolution that a Commission be set up to inquire into the sale and manufacture of intoxicants in Ireland. In consequence of that, sometime afterwards I got a communication from the Department of Home Affairs, Dáil Éireann. It was written on Dáil notepaper and signed by members of the Dáil. In that communication I was asked if I was prepared to act on the Commission and if I would suggest the names of other people who would. In reply to that letter, I wrote that I would act on the Commission and I suggested certain other names. I got a second letter from the Department of Home Affairs suggesting alternative names, and I wrote accepting these. I heard nothing further until the 27th March, 1922, when I got a communication addressed from the Ministry of Home Affairs, Upper Merrion Street, Dublin, which, I presume, is the Ministry of Home Affairs for the Provisional Government. That letter ran as follows:—
Ministry of Home Affairs,
Dublin,
27th March, 1922.
A Dhuine Uasail, I am directed by the Minister for Home Affairs to inform you, with reference to the setting up of a Committee of Inquiry into the sale and manufacture of intoxicants in Ireland, that all members of the Committee have intimated their acceptance of the invitation to act, with the exception of Mr. P.J. Cahill and yourself. The Minister would be obliged to know, as early as possible if you have any information as to whether Mr. Cahill will act as, in case he does not, it will be necessary to nominate some other member. It is presumed that you are agreeable to act on the Committee.
Mise le meas ort,
Rúnaidhe.
Seán MacEntee, Esq., T.D.
That letter came to me in an envelope on which there was the inscription "Rialtas Sealadach na hÉireann" which I believe is very bad Irish for the "Provisional Government." It was stamped with an official stamp, which, I presume, was an ordinary franking stamp for the Provisional Government. I want to know from the Minister of Home Affairs, in view of the former letters addressed to me from the Dáil Ministry and my replies stating that I would act on the Committee to be set up under the auspices of Dáil Éireann, what was the purpose in asking me to go on another Committee? Do the circumstances bear out that, in regard to his Department in any event, the undertaking of the President, that the Dáil would function in all its Departments, is being carried out? Was it not an attempt to set up a Committee under the auspices of the Provisional Government?
In reply to the questions raised, I would like to say in connection with the first question, with regard to the policing of the country, that that was very generally dealt with by the Minister of Defence in his report yesterday. The policing of the country has been taken over by the Army in the transition period. In certain places, for reasons which are well known to the members of the Dáil, where headquarters has not got control, there is a difficulty in the matter of police work at the moment; but as soon as General Headquarters gets definite command the policing can be done without any trouble in these places. With regard to the question raised as to licensing jurisdiction, it would be well if members would realise that I took over this Department three months ago as it stood. I never fashioned it. Mr. Stack was responsible for the setting up of the Courts. I took over the machine as I found it. I took over the staff as I found it. I did not dismiss anybody. I did not make a single change in the personnel of the staff. I told them they were to carry on, that there was no change in policy, and as a matter of fact, they have been carrying on to a much greater extent since I took the Department over because of the operations of the Treaty. That applies to the Courts Department. The Courts have no licensing jurisdiction, and they never had. They have no Bankruptcy jurisdiction; no Lunacy jurisdiction, and no Probate jurisdiction. There is no Department for writs, deeds, or transfers of land, or ordinary commercial transactions that are being carried out every day in the week. We all know that, and there is no use in pretending that they have.
A DEPUTY:
Why not give it to them?
These things are under our control. We have control of the machinery.
Under the control of Dáil Éireann.
We are in a position to place it at the disposal of Dáil Éireann.
As a matter of fact, a Chinn Comhairle——
Please allow me to finish. There have been questions raised in reference to Dáil Éireann judges. They have been appointed by my predecessor; I have appointed none of them. They were taken over by me the same as the other persons functioning under the Department. One Deputy raised a question about the summoning of a jury in Waterford. I do not know anything about it. One judge decided—very properly, I think— that criminal cases should not be tried without juries, and Court rules made no provision for either the empanelling or the summoning of the jury. There is no machinery available under the Dáil Courts for providing juries, and I think what very probably happened is this: the local sheriff, regarding himself as an officer of the Provisional Government, acted on an order which he got from some official of the Dáil, and got the jury. There was some reference to the terms of appointment of the judges. I have said they were all appointed by my predecessor, and they had the right, while acting as judges of the Dáil Courts, to practise in the British Courts. Undoubtedly they did so—some of them did. That right was not given them by me, because I did not appoint them. I merely took them over on the same terms on which they had already been appointed. With regard to the delay in dealing with cases in Cork, all I can say in the matter is that at the time I took over the Department there was a great congestion of Court work. That was largely owing to the fact that the principal court officials had been on sick leave, and also because of the fact that as a result of the operation of the Treaty, all sorts of people were pouring into the Courts—people who did not come into them before. There was, in consequence, a certain amount of congestion, and it can be easily understood that some delay was more or less unavoidable. It can, however, be got over with a sufficient number of judges, but not otherwise. I am sorry to learn that my friend, Deputy McEntee, got a communication from the Dáil Office on Provisional Government paper. It was a typist's error——
It was the second communication.
I am very sorry the mistake occurred, and I hope you will not be the worse of it.
Díaras ort cead an cheist seo do phléidhe—ceist na bpiléirí. Ceist ró-mhór é seo do'n fhreagra do fuaras. Ní ceart dúinn mar Ríaltas na tíre cead do thabhairt do rudaí imeacht mar sin gan aon tsocrú.
Nílim sásta leis an bhfreagra do fuaras. Níor chuir aoinne os cóir na Dála riamh go raibh cead ag aon Breitheamh dul isteach go cúirt Shasana. I think the Minister has not made it clear about this appointment of judges. Judges were getting a big salary from the Dáil and at the same time they were allowed to practise in English Courts. I think this House had a right to be informed that these Judges had permission to practise in English Courts and that they were appointed on these conditions. It has not been made clear to the House how they got the permission.
Have I your permission, a Chinn Comhairle, to raise the question of the police before the adjournment? The policing of the country cannot be left over until certain things are settled or unsettled. It is a matter of the first national importance.
The matter can be referred to again.
In reply to Mr. O' Maille, I may say that the Judges were appointed by my predecessor, Mr. Stack, and the terms of appointment were fixed by him and not by me. I have no responsibility in that respect.
With reference to the statement of the Minister of Home Affairs, that this Dáil and Ministry had no jurisdiction in matters of lunacy, it is a matter of common public knowledge that men were committed to lunatic asylums on the signatures of members of the District Courts.
I was referring to jurisdiction under the other courts for dealing with the estates of lunatics. In these matters, there is no jurisdiction under the Dáil Courts.
The Minister of Local Government in the debate to-day accused a certain party of making a statement too general, or words to that effect. He did not give specific instances. I don't want to talk long on points, but I may mention that this matter of Republican Courts is one specific case and is one of the main things causing disturbances in the country. There is evidence that the Dáil Departments are not being worked; they are simply marking time. Marking time is not working. The Minister states the Courts have not jurisdiction over several things. Why have not they got jurisdiction? What has the Minister been doing since his appointment that he has not come before the House and got the necessary authority? That is at the root of a good deal of the trouble existing in the country.
Is this matter in order, a Chinn Chomhairle?
Am I not in order? Is the debate closed? I take it the debate is not closed. I am discussing the report of the present Minister of Home Affairs.
I ask for your ruling on this matter, a Chinn Comhairle. The Minister of Home Affairs has already replied and you are allowing the debate to go on.
Quite naturally.
Once a Minister has replied, I hold a debate cannot go any further.
There have been questions asked to which answers have been given. I think the motion to accept this report has not been made yet. It has not been proposed, as far as I know, that this report should be accepted.
I waited for a considerable time before replying to make sure that no one else was going to speak before I stood up.
It would have been better if the Minister had waited a little bit longer. It would have been more satisfactory if the Minister answered at the end of the questions. Then he would know the debate was closed. I take it the debate was not closed.
There has been no motion put forward.
I was criticising the present Minister and not his predecessor, since he came into office. He has had ample opportunity of obtaining whatever authority he required to enable those courts to function over an area in which they did not previously function. That is the gist of the whole trouble. The Provisional Government is acting as a Government without responsibility to this House and their courts are being allowed to function and the Republican Courts are being allowed to live a kind of moribund existence. I do not want to introduce any heat into the debate, but I would respectfully put it to the House that this is one of the disturbing elements in the country—that the Departments of Dáil Éireann are being allowed to mark time and are not going ahead. The same would more or less apply to the police. Nothing is being done about the Republican Police, because the Provisional Government is taking steps to put another police force into operation.
The courts have been called Free State Courts throughout the country in the Press. That matter has raised a lot of annoyance. Then, again, I have to make reference to the dismissal of a judge in our area. This particular justice was the only Republican justice who remained in the district and he was dismissed without any explanation, I think, by the Assistant-Minister. There was another case in which a fine was inflicted by a District Court and an order was made to cancel the fine and it was sent down behind the justices' backs. I think those matters should be explained. I think also it is necessary for an instruction to be given to the justices of the Republican Courts to see that the reports in the Press do not describe their courts as Free State Courts. They could avoid that by opening them as Republican Courts. They have been described in the Press as Free State Courts and that has raised a lot of trouble.
With regard to the Waterford incident, the answer made by the Minister of Home Affairs has not made the matter clear. He states the jury was summoned probably by the High Sheriff.
You cannot reopen that question in any way.
I am not reopening the question. I bow to your ruling but I only want it to be made clear——
You have already raised that question and you cannot go over the same ground.
I am only endeavouring to get a clear answer.
Ask for the answer. You can do that.
I want a clear and definite answer as to whether I am to infer from the answer given by the Minister of Home Affairs that the sheriff had the right to call a Grand Jury for the Republican Court.
This discussion must be closed now.
I have no definite information about the Waterford case. The jury may have been summoned by the Chief of Police, for all I know. What I did suggest was that it was quite possible that the sheriff now an officer of the Provisional Government might have obeyed an order issued to him by the Registrar of the Republican Courts. If he did, I do not see what grievance the Republican Courts have. With regard to Mr. Etchingham's point, if the Registrars of Republican courts have referred to them as Free State courts, that is quite wrong and it is due to some misapprehension. The Republican courts are purely Republican courts and will remain so, in accordance with the undertaking given by the President. The courts will be carried on as such. With regard to Deputy Collivet's point, that it was the duty of the Minister of Home Affairs to proceed to set up a new system of courts and increase the jurisdiction of the Republican courts, I would like to point out to him that under the undertakings given by the President no such obligation was thrown on me. I took them over as I found them and I have carried them on. They have been carried on to an extent hitherto unknown. That is point No. 1. To set up the machinery necessary to provide the courts with additional jurisdiction would be a matter of months and would mean the setting up of a huge staff and huge organisation. It would take months to do it and there would be no sense or reason in doing that for the purpose of dealing with a transition period which will last only another few weeks. At the end of that time, either the Republic will be set up in which case the Republic will have to establish courts which will be capable of doing the business of the people, or the Free State will be set up, in which case it will use machinery which it has in hand and get control of.
It has already been proposed and seconded that the report be adopted. I will now put it to the House.
Motion for the adoption of the report of the Minister of Home Affairs put and declared carried.