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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 29 Sep 1922

Vol. 1 No. 15

DRAFT CONSTITUTION.

I hope I shall not unduly startle the Dáil after the equanimity that has settled upon it to-day by speaking plainly on this matter. I am moving that the Draft Constitution taken to London by our representatives be placed in the hands of the Deputies. I am not asking that any confidential document should be disclosed. But when I first put the motion on the paper I did so simply because it is a matter of right that this Parliament, to which the Provisional Government is responsible, and to which alone it is responsible—that we, the principals of that Government, ought to know exactly what our agents have done on our behalf. Since then we have had some debate on the Constitution, with the result that I have a further reason for pressing this motion, and it is that, in dealing with the Constitution there has been exhibited a want of candour, a disingenuousness that make it more essential than ever that the Dáil should know what was the original draft of the Government. I feel that the men who are loyally supporting the Government because they realise the necessity of getting the Treaty implemented, are being imposed upon—that this Dáil is being imposed upon, and that the country is being imposed upon. Let me remind the Dáil before I give a little evidence of that of a question which I asked the President the other day. I asked him whether he would produce the Draft in question. He said no, that he had refused on Thursday last, and he added—"There has not been any change in our decision in the matter up to now." I said "Do you foreshadow that there will be?" He said "No." I said "I do." Now, the President misinterpreted my answer to him as meaning that I intended to give publicity to this document, whereas what I meant was that I believed that the pressure of opinion in this Dáil would bring the Government to see that it was necessary that they should publish this Draft. The President replied to me "If there is (that is if there is publication) it will be a breach of confidence, and no person outside these Benches has the right to publish it, as it would be a breach of confidence." I agree with that—that it is a matter of honour for people who have been in the Ministry—people who have been on the Expert Committee of the Government, not to publish, without consent of the Government, the private Draft which had been prepared. I agree, subject to one qualification, and that is, that this matter of honour is reciprocal, and that the Government must maintain on their side their standard of honour. Now I ask the Dáil to observe what has happened. When the Debate on the Constitution—I think it was on the second reading—was on (I quote from No. 11 of our Report) the Minister for Home Affairs singled me out for a curious attack, and one which he could not have made had that Draft been in the hands of the Members. It was not an attack made in the heat of the moment, because he was opening the debate and, presumably, had thought over what he was going to say, and I refer you to it, not on account of the personal matter involved, but as it will lead up to the conclusive evidence of the fact that this Draft ought to be in the hands of the Members to prevent the Dáil being misled. The Minister said "Deputy Gavan Duffy said here some time ago ‘this is a contract,' and he said it in a tone of exultation, with the suggestion that because it was a contract, you could avail of any little loophole that you saw to evade the honourable implications of this Treaty—to evade the implications which, beyond all doubt, were present in the minds of the signatories at the moment when they became signatories." And then he went on: "Now this Government will not dishonour the signature of Deputy Gavan Duffy, even at the invitation of Deputy Gavan Duffy, because when he signed the Treaty he signed it on behalf of the Irish Nation." I treated the matter with contempt at the time, because I put it down to the schoolboy insolence to which we are getting accustomed from this particular Minister, and I rather fancy that my honour stands out of the reach of the shafts of a Minister who is fast bringing his office into disrepute by his continuous habit of acrimony and want of scruple in his attacks on opponents. He returned to the charge again, being enabled to do so because the Members of this Dáil had not the document in their hands which they should have, and I find, in Vol. 12 of this Report, some further observations of the Minister which are illuminating. Let me very briefly refresh the mind of the Dáil as to what the Deputy said. I had proposed to leave the expression "the King" out of the phrase which defines our Parliament. I may have been right; I may have been wrong. At all events, that is a serious matter, and the Minister treats it in this way in opening Article 12: "There is an amendment down in the name of Deputy Gavan Daffy which, in the opinion of the Government, is practically equivalent to an invitation to this Dáil to proclaim a Republic, and I trust that this Assembly will give that amendment all the consideration it deserves. The proposal is to leave out the King. Now, unfortunately, we consider that within the terms of the Treaty it is not possible to leave out the King." And then he proceeds to quote the Canadian Act, the African Act, and the Australian Act, but he took jolly good care not to quote to this Dáil the Irish Draft that these men took over to London, and well he knows it. After that he went on to say: "We who had the duty of working out an interpretation of the Treaty could only take it that we were bound to work out a Constitution which would fit within the limits of those first two Articles of the Treaty, and we could not see, still less could we maintain across the table with the British representatives, that there was anything in these two Articles of the Treaty which would enable us to leave out the King, as Deputy Gavan Duffy desires." And then, after some sneers about Robert Emmet, he says: "We propose to accept the King because we have a mandate from the people to accept the Treaty, and we cannot maintain, and we were unable to maintain in the past, that within the four corners of the Treaty you could draft a Constitution which would leave out the King." Now that means that a man who, having been in the Ministry and knowing what were the possibilities in the draft of our Constitution and who came down to this Dáil and proposed to leave out the King, was either a fool or a rogue—probably the latter. That is what those expressions mean, and they cannot have meant anything else. I moved my amendment immediately after that, and I, thereupon, challenged the Minister to produce to this Dáil the Draft which he had taken over to London of these particular clauses. And finding himself in a very considerably embarrassed position as I went on, he decided that as he did not want to produce the Draft, he would execute a volte face, and this is what he said, interrupting my speech: “On a point of personal explanation, I would like to know through you, Mr. Chairman, whether the Deputy is trying to establish that we did not try to leave out the King.” Two minutes before he had been telling this Dáil that none but a fool or a rogue would try to leave out the King. And now when he is challenged to produce the Draft he turns completely round and tries to convey to the Dáil that he did his best to leave it out. In other words that his advisers told him he could leave it out. And I tell the Dáil, and I tell the country, that when he tried to convey that impression he was conveying the truth. The reason I moved that Amendment is because I know that this same Ministry last June maintained that we were entitled to leave out the King—and they knew it very well—maintained it after the advice they had got from the various experts—maintained it in the Draft they took to London. I shall pass from this unsavoury episode, and I hope I shall not have to return to it. I think Deputies will realize that I am exercising considerable forbearance in not qualifying the conduct I have described as one would be inclined to qualify it, in these circumstances. What I want to put to this Dáil is this: Are we going to have as our standard in the public life of this country that kind of chicanery, or are we going to have a standard of public morality of which we can be proud? It is for this Dáil to decide which it is to be.

It would have been very easy for the Government to come to this Dáil, anxious as we all are to support it, in implementing the Treaty properly, come and say: "Here is the Draft we took to London last June. There were certain things in that Draft that did not commend themselves to Downing Street in relation to Clause A, B, or C, which we specify to the Dáil. Mr. Lloyd George informed us that if we insisted on our interpretation of the Treaty and what we were advised was the legitimate interpretation of the Treaty, he would tear up the Treaty in shreds and in the face of that insistence we felt it our duty to come away and to yield to the English interpretation." The Government could have said that and have gone on to say "we recognise we were rather precipitate in our yielding, but whether we were right or wrong then, we tell the Dáil, that at the moment, when civil war is raging in this country, it is impossible for the Government to do otherwise than to accept these interpretations which are thrust upon it at the pistol point." If the Government said that, and made it clear to the country, that they are accepting what they believed three months ago to be a wrong interpretation, on a threat of tearing up the Treaty, if they had said that, "we cannot stand up to the people in London," they would have been saving the National dignity, and I, for one, would have gone nine tenths of the way with them. But what I object to is, the misrepresentation of the position, which would convey to the Dáil and to the country that the Draft, which we were told we must swallow, many parts without examination, is a just and proper and right Constitution for us to accept without question under the Treaty. Saving the face of Lloyd George and Winston Churchill! The other policy would have been just as easy, far more honourable, but it wanted just that little moral courage necessary to make it sufficiently easy for the Ministers to adopt. When I spoke of moral courage the other day the President said, "you objected to the Treaty, a man of moral courage would not have signed it." I can tell the President that it required a great deal more moral courage to sign the Treaty than to refuse to sign it. Why did they not have the moral courage or commonsense to come to this Dáil, put their cards on the table and take every man here into their confidence and say "we cannot help it, there is civil war on; and in face of that war whether we are right or wrong, England says in respect of such clauses you must take them and we are not able to make a stand by certain clauses." We have not yet been told that there was a threat of war, or a threat of tearing up the Treaty, or any other threat in respect of specified clauses. And the whole attitude from beginning to end has been wrong, and that is why I feel it my duty to insist that the facts shall come out before this Assembly, which is entitled to have them.

Let me remind the Government of what happened when Australia passed a Constitution in 1900. The Australians came over to England with a Constitution they had drafted, and the English said "you have got no Appeal to the Privy Council in this. Put in an Appeal to the Privy Council." The Australians said, "we shall have no Appeal to your Privy Council; we decline to put in anything of the kind." The English said "that Appeal must go in or you will have no Constitution for your Federation." The Australians said, "very well"—and mind you they had no Treaty which could not be altered,— the Australians said "very well, there is our draft, take it to your Parliament. If you alter a comma in it you will alter it in the light of day and everyone will know if we accept your Privy Council that we do so, because you forced us to it." That was a dignified attitude, and I think our Ministers might learn a lesson from Colonial Ministers in days when that Colony had not become a Sovereign State, and if the Ministers here showed the same dignity now, and laid their cards on the table, and told us why we must accept this or that clause, that they were doing it, that they were asking us to accept this or that clause, because we must do it; because there is civil war in the country, and we cannot resist England, that would be the dignified, straight course. They have not done so, and I ask the Dáil to say that the Ministry in the circumstances, after the conduct I have described, should produce the Draft they took to London before we proceed with the Constitution.

I have great pleasure in seconding the resolution. I think the Irish draft of the Constitution should be produced in justice to the dead President and the dead Commander-in-Chief. They above all men may be blamed for the present Draft Constitution, which is an English draft. In justice to their honour, the Irish draft should be produced, as their interpretation of the Treaty. It was often said, that the late President Griffith was an '82 man, a Constitutional man, that he was not a Separatist, and all the rest of it. I do not believe it. The present Constitution will be submitted to the detriment of the honour of the late President Griffith, as proof, that he was never so advanced as he was supposed to be. We have to consider the people of this country, as well as the people of England—peace in this country is more essential than peace with England. If the publication of the Constitution before the election was known it is my belief that it would be one of the straws that drew away those who are now in opposition from acceptance of the Treaty. If it was known that this Constitution was forced on President Griffith under duress, there might be a different view taken of it. I submit that the Constitution we should consider is the Draft Constitution submitted by the Provisional Government. It was an Irish interpretation of that Treaty. I have never seen that, and perhaps I could have done so if I wished, but I do not think there was much reference in it to the noodle they call the king. I do not think they have any respect at all for that noodle the English call their king, or want him in that Constitution that is forced upon us. It does not make it a Republic Constitution, nor would it if the king were left out. Neither did ex-President De Valera's document No. 2 make us a Republic. If the Constitution as drawn up and accepted by the Provisional Government was put on the table with the statement, here is our Constitution and here is the Constitution the English want to force on us, here are the clauses the English say we must accept, or accept war, or tear up the Treaty, I think, so far as I am concerned, I would receive the Constitution in a different frame of mind. We were told on the discussion on the Treaty by the late President Griffith that the Constitution was a question for the Dáil, but that he had promised to submit to the English Parliament a Draft Constitution, and he kept that promise, but he did not say so that the world should know that there had been an insistence on certain clauses being put into that Constitution, that they had been accepted under threat of war and the breaking of the Treaty already signed. There is no good in going back on what has been done. I think it is futile, but I cannot help saying that the Government selected a very inopportune time for submitting the draft. It was after the assassination of Sir Henry Wilson and the De Valera-Collins pact—that pact, and I had letters from outside Ireland confirming this view —was accepted as scrapping the Treaty.

You are discussing the draft and I hope you will not go too far round in doing so.

It was only natural that the English should have had some fears at that time, and consequently took the first opportunity of assuring themselves that the Treaty had not been scrapped, and the opportunity presented itself in the Constitution. I think, if we had not presented it at the time we did, there would not be so many changes in the Constitution. They were afraid we were going to break the Treaty and they wanted to secure themselves. If this Irish interpretation of the Treaty had been submitted to this Dáil and the English proposal submitted, and the acceptance depended on this Dáil, I think the English would have accepted more on the original draft than they have done on the draft now submitted to the Dáil. They did not know we were going to fight for the Free State, and they did not think there was any opinion in Ireland that would fight for the Free State. If the Government had come out and said: these things are most objectionable to Irishmen, and particularly objectionable to the men who are in arms against the Government, it would make for peace in this country, which is more important than peace with England. If the Government were wise and took their courage in both hands, they would do it, and the fact that they will not do it makes me suspicious that they have got something in return for the surrender.

What we are discussing is not the late Government but the Constitution Bill, and you are going completely away from that point.

This suspicion which does exist may be wrong but it will do the Government no good in the country if the Government does not disclaim it. If they submit the original draft and tell us plainly why the other was accepted, it would clear the air and make for peace in the country, and they will do much to redeem the honour of the late President and the late Commander-in-Chief.

I will not directly reply to many of the things that Deputy Gavan Duffy said, because the passage of time will answer them. This Dáil will get to know him as well as the Ministry know him. I was candid about the Constitution, that is the original draft, and Deputy Gavan Duffy did not like it. This matter is one about which nobody who thinks of the country and who is wishful to do his best for the country can have any two minds. The people who will want it produced are the people who will really want it produced to achieve a personal object. There are negotiations which bring good fruit, and the processes and the attitudes that have been taken from time to time, in the progress of these negotiations cannot be exposed without public damage. Half a year ago all in this Dáil, I think, were agreed that a certain matter would not be a matter for discussion here in public. When a matter has been discussed and closed, it is often a fact that the disclosure of the processes and progress of negotiations would be as harmful as publicity during them. It is not an unprecedented thing that this draft should not be produced. In South Africa a Constitution was drafted by a committee which sat for two years or thereabouts, and no documents connected with the work of that committee have yet been made public.

Who appointed the Committee?

I do not know that there is any reason for treating this matter in any different way from any other business with which the Government is charged. We come here with the policy frequently to recommend to the Dáil that we arrive at that policy. We sometimes have to negotiate with outside people, and if we have not to negotiate with outside people, we have to settle and compose differences of view amongst ourselves. Nobody in his senses would say that the good of the country would be served in any way by disclosing how we arrived at the policy we recommended to the Dáil. Can any person honestly think any person who does not want to get party advantage and does not want to serve some little personal object and save his face and try to run away in a most cowardly sort of way from something, that this should be disclosed. There has been no attempt to point out how the interest of the country would be served by producing this Constitution. There has been no attempt whatever to show how the position would be improved, how the interests of Ireland would be served by producing it. For myself, if it were only a personal thing, or if it were not a matter that would create a precedent which would be harmful in the administration of the country, I would not give a snap of my fingers whether the Draft Constitution sent to London was laid on the table of this Dáil, or not. I have stated what I believe about it. For my part I regarded it frankly as a "try on." While the members of the Government may have had different views about it, I do not think there was any member of the Government who was prepared to give way in anything which he did not believe the Treaty compelled us to give away. I do not think there was any member of the Government, except perhaps Mr. Gavan Duffy, who thought that we would not have to give away something. As far as I am concerned, I believe that the Draft Constitution as it stands is an absolutely fair interpretation of the Treaty. I believe that the tactics followed in sending over the Constitution, which is not strictly within the terms of the Treaty, was justified by the fact that there were several advantages in this Constitution which the British have conceded to us, and which by the terms of the Treaty they were not obliged to concede to us. I believe this is an interpretation which is fair to us, an interpretation in which the British have not insisted upon their pound of flesh, as they might have insisted upon it. It is just as well to be frank about that. When I decided to vote for the Treaty, I decided to work for it, and it is only by working it in the fairest way we will get the objects of the Treaty. I do not think any National good will be obtained by trying to evade it. I believe it contains the principle of growth, and because of that I believe through the Treaty position Ireland can work forwards to complete Nationhood. But with regard to getting anything by pretending we had not to give up things in the Treaty which we had to give up, is wrong. I put it to one member of the Government, as far as I am concerned, my position is this that this Constitution is put before the Dáil as a fair interpretation of the Treaty. No National purpose, no good purpose can be served by bringing up previous documents, and there were many of these documents, and there was nothing in particular to distinguish the one which was taken over to London from some of the documents which preceded it. Nothing at all. No good purpose whatever can be served by disclosing the precise way by which we arrived at this joint agreement, especially in view of the fact that we were not pressed to the last inch in that interpretation of the Treaty. I think that I need say no more, but that this is not a matter in which the Dáil will ask for a thing out of curiosity, or will ask for it to see what the Ministry thought of it, or things had been done.

I am sure this Dáil will not ask for this document, unless it is convinced that some good purpose, some benefit to the Nation will accrue; and I submit that nothing of that nature can follow the production of the document. I think that the Dáil will not produce it for the purpose of enabling Deputy Gavan Duffy to run away from the responsibility which he took when he signed the Treaty, and which he has since consistently tried to run away from.

In regard to this particular subject, I would like to say a word or two in order to explain my position. I am not sure that it is wise to say that we should not proceed any further with the discussion until the document is produced, but I say that the attitude that has been adopted by the Ministry in regard to this Constitution is not the attitude that we were led to expect, and is not in consonance with the position of this Dáil as a Constituent Assembly. The late President, Arthur Griffith, wrote to me and assured me that this Assembly would be a sovereign body. He wrote—"This Assembly will be a sovereign body, and no one recognises more clearly than I that it is not for us to bind or diminish its sovereignty in advance. Clearly, an Assembly empowered to pass and prescribe a Constitution has also title to pass and prescribe it in the form most agreeable to itself." The Minister will tell us it is still within our power, but the implication there is that this Assembly would be the body responsible for the production of that document, and while we all knew there was a committee at work to examine into the Constitution and produce the draft, we presumed it was all for the assistance of this Dáil as a Constituent Assembly. Now the Government conception is a different one apparently. Their conception is, as a Ministry, that they were bound to produce a Bill which would embody a draft Constitution, and present it to the Dáil as a Government measure. Now that was an entirely different position, and was not the position we were led to expect, or the position that was insisted upon by President Griffith when he spoke of this Assembly being all powerful in its power to prescribe and pass this Constitution in the form most agreeable to itself. And so I support the demand for the production of this draft, and all other drafts; and if it were possible, to produce the preliminary drafts of the Constitutions of every other Assembly in the world bearing upon their Constitutions. I would say these should also be placed upon the table in order to assist the Dáil in producing a Constitution most agreeable to itself. Now that view is not held by the majority of this Dáil, and I am forced to make this confession. My conception of our function as an Assembly to produce a Constitution most suitable for this country according to our judgment is a wrong one. When I thought that was our position and function I held that the Constitution we would produce in these conditions would be superior to any document, any Act, any Treaty that this country would lay its hand to. But in view of the Government's position, in view of the Ministry's position, in view of the position held by the majority of the Dáil, I am sorry to say I am forced to accept the conclusion of Deputy Magennis and the Ministry that the Constitution is quite a subordinate incident, that it is comparitively trivial, and that the Treaty is a much more important document. In view of the situation the Dáil is placed in by the action of the Government, we are not being assisted, as a Constituent Assembly, to produce the best Constitution in the form most agreeable to this Dáil. In that case it is, by far, better that we should look upon this Constitution as a much less important thing than we have hitherto looked upon it. It is in draft and it is the draft that is going to be substantially carried. It is much inferior to the Treaty, in the powers that are conceded to this country. Therefore let us stand on the more important document and place that in the premier position. I am sorry that that is the case. I would like this Dáil to have issued of itself the Constitution most fitting in its view to the Government of this country, recognising frankly, recognising honestly, the Treaty we have entered into, but interpreting that in its fullest sense and to the fullest possible advantage to the Irish people. Once that were done, if the form of ratification by the British Parliament, or confirmation by the British Parliament, has to be gone through, if that confirmation were not conceded, if we had to challenge the British Parliament to alter or wipe out this or that or the other Clause, in our chosen form of Constitution, then we would know where we are and the world would know where we are. But as things are it seems to me we have to frankly recognise that the Treaty is a more important document and that the Constitution is quite inferior in so far as it does not come up to the standard set by the Treaty. Quite apart from its repugnancy, in so far as it does not come up to the standard set by the Treaty, it is amendable and alterable at will.

As I had something to do with these negotiations about the Constitution, it is perhaps just as well that I should say something on this Motion of Deputy Gavan Duffy. This Constitution Committee which sat, to advise the Government, was even more fertile than was expected of it. It produced, not one Draft Constitution, but three Draft Constitutions, and it is true to say that it was not any one of those Draft Constitutions that was brought to London, but another Draft Constitution that was arrived at by a kind of eclectic process, a process of taking what we considered the best and the strongest from one or other of the Constitutions. It was such a Draft Constitution that was brought to London. It was our duty—we regarded it as such—to get into the Constitution all that the Treaty gave. Let us admit here, if we could have got into the Constitution more than the Treaty gave we would also have considered it our duty to get that and to take that. That is a point to remember, that if we could get into our Constitution more than the Treaty gave, more than the strict, or even fair, interpretation of the Treaty gave, we would have been delighted to get it, because none of us is perfectly satisfied with what the Treaty gave. Therefore, to be quite frank, we did what the Minister for Local Government described as a "Try on"; we brought over something which we felt ourselves we could not get and which if the position were reversed—if we were in the English position and the English were in ours— we certainly would not concede. We went over, perhaps, with the spirit of a man who knows well that he is not going to get all that he is asking, for and therefore aims high. We aimed high and we got what I have already described here, and what in my judgment is a strict but fair interpretation of the Treaty. I take it, it was strict because of the circumstances of the time. I am sure if circumstances were otherwise, that we would have got a more pleasantly worded Constitution, but I do not believe that we would have got a Constitution differing, in any material respect, from the Draft Constitution that is now before the Dáil. Now there is a cry for the Draft Constitution. Our duty was to bring before this Dáil a Draft Constitution which they might consider. Further, we were pledged to a certain political section in this country to produce, before the elections, the Constitution in its final form. That is the Constitution by which we intended to stand or fall as a Government. We went over and arrived at what is an agreed Draft Constitution. Now I regard it as part of the functions of the Government to act towards the Parliament, to which it is responsible, pretty much as we are told the whiskers act to the cat. Someone told me, when I was young, I do not know whether it is strictly true or not, that the cat measures with his whiskers whether the hole is big enough for it to pass through; the whiskers report back to the cat the hole is too small. That is pretty well what we did. We went over and we tried whether a certain passage was big enough, and we found it was not. We are reporting that back to this Dáil, and if this Dáil thinks we are wrong it can try the passage, and we only hope that it does not get stuck half-way through and land itself in a mess. Certainly anything we can do in the way of a back shove we will do—while we would not accept primary responsibility, anything in the way of a back shove we would do. We have said that we consider that certain clauses in that Constitution ought not to be tampered with because we do not believe that you are at all likely to get better terms, and we do believe that you are very likely to seriously endanger the whole position. If that advice were not accepted we would no longer accept primary responsibility for the direction of the political affairs of the country. Deputy Gavan Duffy wants the draft. I think he wants the draft simply to say this is what your Government ought to have got—to use it as so much ammunition against the Government.

I explained that that was not my purpose at all.

Mr. O'HIGGINS:

You explained so many things. We stand for this Constitution, which we have brought to this Dáil, believing it is a fair interpretation of the Treaty. It is in that spirit we put it to the Dáil, and it is not our duty to come in here to confuse the minds of the members with different drafts. Deputy MacCartan said it would clear the air. It would not clear the air; it would simply lead to confusion and danger and doubt. Anyone who does not like this Constitution can express his views to the Dáil and attempt to get the Dáil to alter it in any way he can. And, if he has sufficient persuasive powers, he can get the Dáil to put it in the fire and get power to produce another, but it is not the duty of the Government to bring forward before the Dáil confidential documents which are not, in fact, relevant. This is the Constitution before the Dáil and no other, and as long as we are in the position of being the responsible Government of the country we will insist upon a certain amount of Government privacy and Cabinet confidence, and we will not be bullied from that position. There is not much more to say. Certain offensive things have been said about the Government as a whole.

AN LEAS CEANN COMHAIRLE:

It is better to leave these things out— Ministers as well as Deputies.

Mr. O'HIGGINS:

They do not really worry us much. There is only, perhaps, one thing that will keep me awake. It is the reference to my schoolboy insolence. If it were merely insolence I would not mind, but schoolboy insolence will cause me to lie awake till the small hours of the morning worrying about it. I can only assure the Deputy that I feel just as old as he looks, and if he has any doubt about that I will seriously consider the advisability of growing a beard.

Ní gádh aon rud a rá fé na neithe sin. Tá sé mar adeirimis i bpríosún tamal ó shin "is fiú é." Tá cúpla focal le rá agam ar thaoibh an rúin seo atá ós cóir na Dála. Níl móran, le rá agam.

In supporting Deputy Gavan Duffy's motion there are just one or two little things I would like to say, and one is that Teachtai should not be scared into taking up this request because one Minister has said that someone wants to use this document for personal or private reasons. That is untrue. It may be true of some Deputies. I do not know whether it is or not, but it is not true of any Deputy upon this side of the Dáil, and we have repeatedly asked for these documents. We want these documents because we want to get everything that is relevant to the present Draft Bill. Ministers say this document is not relevant. It might as well be argued, and argued as a matter of fact with a good deal more force, that the Constitutions handed round, including the Three Dominion Constitutions, are not relevant to this Bill, but of course they are relevant to this Bill. And of course this document itself is of prime importance as relevant to this Bill. The Ministry says that if this Bill is not carried they will resign or do something like that. Now, the majority of this Dáil will take that up because the majority of this Dáil does not, in my opinion, want to put in an alternative Government, but if we on these Benches had anything like the numbers we would like to have here we would have no hesitation at all, if we got the assistance of a similar Committee as the Constitutional Committee in taking up the challenge of the Ministry to try it out and let them resign. We are not in that position of a comfortable majority, but we hope we will not always be in a minority. One Minister has said—I do not know whether he said there was any precedent for anything like this, or that there was a precedent for keeping information back, but he mentioned something about South Africa. Will any Minister tell me that, say, in the Treaty concluded between Great Britain and the South African Republics when they were defeated, that the proceedings of the Convention of South African delegates who appointed plenipotentiaries to come to terms with Kitchener have not been made public, and that these delegates were not informed step by step of the course of the negotiations. Now, we on these benches have good reason to blame not only this Dáil but the last Dáil, because in everything that came along there was no information given step by step. As far as precedents are concerned, I think there is a good precedent in the case of the British North-American Act. I am just wondering whether the reluctance of the Ministry to produce this document has anything to do with the fact that in connection with the eighteen or twenty Constitutions, including the Three Dominions, the necessary information about these—namely, the circumstances in which these Constitutions were drawn up, have not been presented to us, because in the case of the British North-American Act it is well known that McDonald, the leader of the Canadian Delegation, had in the Canadian draft certain clauses which the British Colonial Office would not agree to, and one of these clauses—and it goes a little bit further than the Ministry is prepared to go in the draft before the Dáil—wanted to set up the Kingdom of Canada, although Canada at that time had not developed anything like the national consciousness it has developed now, and, although the people of Canada were made up of emigrants of two or three nationalities, and were not an historic nation like the Irish nation; he wanted to put it into a position with all the up-to-dateness of the position, without the out-of-date things that applied here in 1782. These clauses were not kept back from Canada or the Canadian people. They were not kept back from the world, but the documents that were drawn up by the expert advisers of this nation, apparently only for the assistance of the Ministry, are kept back. We want them because we want to see how they fit in with the scheme of things. The Ministry says the document before the Dáil is a strict and fair interpretation of the Treaty, and challenges the Dáil to disprove that. You may as well challenge the Ministry to disapprove that clause. I have not seen the document that Deputy Duffy has moved on. It would be as fair for us to ask the Ministry to disapprove that these documents were deciding points of the Treaty—just as fair. Let us see them, and let us see if they will be of any assistance to us in making a better Constitution. I agree with Deputy Johnson that some of us, at all events, are disillusioned about the powers of this so-called Constituent Assembly. I agree with him it was not the duty of the Government to bring in a Government measure for the Constitution. Some of us went and asked for mandates for certain things in the Constitution. I hope we got them. We asked that we should not be elected unless by people who supported the things that we put in our programme. We expected to come here to have a free and open discussion on a draft that might be brought before us. That has not been the position at all. The Government produces a Government measure, and, like every other Government measure, put it through the Dáil in the ordinary way. This is not a Constituent Assembly, and it is not a Sovereign Assembly. I support Deputy Duffy.

I do not think since this Dáil began its session, that I have listened to a more unnecessary and more wasteful discussion. It was very much reminiscent of the wrangles that were characteristic of the old Dáil. What is the object of it?

Inflammation? Yes, I think the object is to inflame the minds of the Deputies here, and to render the calm, dispassionate tone of the debate, which, on the whole, has been a feature of the proceedings, no longer possible. We are asked that, before we can proceed with this Constitution, the materials which were used by the men who were acting for this country should be produced before we can form an opinion whether this present Constitution that we have before us in the form of a Bill is a good or a bad Constitution. That seems to me like a man who, before he will give his opinion about the character of some edifice, whether it is good or bad, would demand to see the scaffolding poles which were used in the construction of that building before he would form his opinion. After all, all these original drafts were, so far as I can get a simile, nothing more than the scaffolding poles used by those who are trying to build up or evolve a practical Constitution which would fit in with the necessity of reconciling the points of view of the two parties to the contract which is known as the Treaty. We have before us now the definite result of their interchange of opinion— what the representatives of both parties to the contract are agreed is fair, equitable interpretation of the Treaty. That is practically the thing before us, and I think the practical work to do to-day is to get ahead with the Constitution, and let the country have the benefit of any advantages or possibilities of progress that it may be possible to get out of it. I do not want to go into these rather irrelevant exchanges or reminiscences of Deputy Duffy. They do not help, in my judgment, to throw any enlightenment upon the matter which he brought before the Dáil. The only effect it had was, I think, to convince the Dáil of the fact that Mr. Duffy's opinion of the Government is a very melancholy one. That may be very well in Deputy Duffy's judgment, but it is not the business this Dáil is concerned with. The business of this Dáil is to do the work of the country, and not waste the time of the country by acrimonious discussions that lead us nowhere except into a morass of doubt and mutual distrust and suspicion. We want to get on with the work. We want to place the country in a position where it can discharge the ordinary duties that any people have to discharge. Now the honour neither of the late President Griffith nor of the late Commander-in-Chief is in doubt or in danger. There is no man in Ireland who has any doubt of the fact that both the late President Griffith and the late Commander-in-Chief stood sentinel over Ireland's honour and Ireland's interest, till the last moments of their lives, and I think that this Dáil and this Treaty will perhaps be a monument that will stand out as a light burning, to keep their memories alive. For it has been as a result more than anything else except perhaps of the heroic valour of Ireland's soldiers, of the superhuman work of these two valiant and illustrious men that this Parliament meets to-day to decide the future of the Nation. Their honour is safe, and I hope when the history of this period is written, the honour of the members of this Dáil will stand one tithe as high in the minds of the people of Ireland. I think it is not becoming to drag in the names of those two men as an argument to buttress this particular object that this motion stands for. We had, as most people in Ireland are aware, a long rambling discussion that has almost rent the country into fragments on a certain Document No. 2. Are we now going to have a similar wrangle on Constitution No. 2, because it seems to me that the value of a discussion on Constitution No. 2 or Draft No. 2 is not a whit more valuable to the country, and will not lead us one fraction nearer to National freedom, than the discussion on Document No. 2 did. Deputy Gavan Duffy said when a certain reference to the British King was made by himself that the Minister for Home Affairs quoted the Constitution of Canada, of South Africa, and the Constitution of Australia, but, he added, that he took good care not to quote the draft Constitution that went across to London. Why should he quote that? I take it that the Minister for Home Affairs was quoting Constitutions that were in being, not one that was in the nebulous state of not having come to the final stage of passing through the hands of the draughtsman. He was arguing about the Constitutions that were definite accomplished facts, not about Constitutions that were not accomplished facts, but were mere matters of speculation. The same argument was made by the Deputy who preceded him, and there was also a considerable amount of discussion about what was the function of the Assembly in dealing with this Constitution. While the point of view ventilated by Deputy Johnson was an interesting one, and a fairly legitimate speculation as to what this Assembly might have been, yet to-day we ask, not what might have been—what we are confronted with is the practical fact of what the Assembly can do. The Assembly must take the draft before it, make what it can of it, make it an accomplished fact, and have an end to this useless, mischievous discussion. Let the country get on with the work. "Get on with the work" was the cry the late Commander-in-Chief gave to the country, and I think it should be the keynote of our discussion here. So, get rid of those petty, bickering, miserable things which are disgusting this country and deflecting the discussions of this Assembly from the clean, commonsense line which up to the present in the main it has adhered to.

There is no House.

I am sorry for that.

Is it a rule, Mr. Speaker, that a count should be taken immediately the question is raised?

AN LEAS CEANN COMHAIRLE:

I think so. I think it is usual in Assemblies of this kind, where the members are busily engaged on some urgent matter in the Lobby, to have an opportunity to return. According to the Standing Orders, when a count is asked for and the number of Members are not in the Chamber, the Dáil stands adjourned until the next ordinary sitting.

Motion: "That the Dáil do now adjourn," put and agreed.
The Dáil adjourned at 7.20 p.m.
Barr
Roinn