I beg to move:
Article 15:—Every citizen who has reached the age of twenty-one years and who is not placed under disability or incapacity by the Constitution or by law shall be eligible to become a member of the Chamber of Deputies/ Dáil Eireann.
CONSTITUTION OF SAORSTAT EIREANN BILL (COMMITTEE). - ARTICLE 15.—ELIGIBILITY FOR MEMBERSHIP OF DAIL EIREANN.
MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS (Mr. Kevin O'Higgins)
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
Before the Article is discussed I should like to point out that the amendment which appears upon the Order Paper in the name of Deputy Darrell Figgis appeared on the former Order Paper as an amendment to Article 16. Deputy Darrell Figgis was good enough to say that no member of my staff could make such an error.
Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS
Perhaps my prognostication is correct.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
I wish to confirm that. The amendment appears exactly as handed in by Deputy Darrell Figgis.
Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS
I notice the complacency with which you did it. I beg now to move my amendment:—"(1) To delete Article 15 and to substitute the following Article: `No person may be elected to or sit in the Parliament/ Oireachtas who is of unsound mind, and has been so declared according to law, or who is an undischarged bankrupt, or who holds any office of profit under the Free State/Saorstát Eireann, or who is a member of the armed forces of the Free State/Saorstát Eireann and wholly employed therein; but Ministers of State and persons in receipt of pensions from the State, and such subordinate civil officers in the service of the State as may be defined by legislation, shall not be excluded from the Parliament/Oireachtas by reason of their office. If a Member of the Parliament/Oireachtas shall become subject to any of the foregoing disabilities, or shall cease to be qualified as required by the Constitution, his seat shall thereupon become vacant.' " The gravamen of the difference between the Article as it appears in the Constitution and as it would appear if my amendment were carried is substantially this, that the Article in the Constitution refers the whole question of disability or incapacity to subsequent legislation instead of dealing with it actually in the Constitution. The amendment in respect of which I am moving the Dáil is, that the fundamental disabilities or incapacities should be embodied in the Constitution, as it has been embodied practically in every other Constitution. I have here a list in my hands, which I do not propose to read fully, but just to make certain excerpts from it, and if they be of service to you, A Chinn Chomhairle, or to the Ministry, I will hand them in, in order that information which has been very carefully compiled may be at the service of other Deputies. It deals with each of the various Constitutions embodied here in this book in my hand, and gives the disqualification and disabilities dealt with in each, and it will be found that every Constitution in the world, including the Constitutions of those colleagues of ours in this Community of Nations that was lately known as the British Empire, has entered in it certain specific disqualifications and disabilities, and that there are certain matters they have decided shall disqualify persons from sitting in the Legislature, and I have endeavoured in this amendment to embody these essential disqualifications. I think, perhaps, I will not have privilege pleaded against me if I say that this Article, as it stands, was not drafted yesterday, but in the early part of this year, and it was not drafted solely by myself. Since that happened—since the Article that stands in the amendment was originally drafted—certain changes have occurred in Ireland that make some parts of it a little difficult to apply to-day that might have not appeared so incongruous six or seven months ago. I mean it might not quite be so easy to find out the distinction between those who were of unsound mind and those who are not. Soundness of mind has become a matter of political opinion, and therefore I do not urge that particular part of the amendment, and I am quite willing to drop it; but there are other parts essential, and I urge that they should be embodied in the Constitution. It should, for example, be embodied in the Constitution, and is embodied in all other Constitutions, that any person holding an office of profit under the Government, or any person— and that is the particular matter I am dealing with now, and it will be present to the minds of many members of the Dáil—that any persons who are members of the armed forces of the Free State and solely employed therein are precluded from participation in the deliberations of this Dáil. That raises the question with regard to Ministers of State and other matters dealt with in the amendment, and I urge that these essential matters should be dealt with in the Constitution, and that the whole difficulty in respect of them should not be referred out of the Constitution to subsequent legislation. I therefore move that the amendment as embodied here in the Order of the Day take the place of Article 15 in the Draft Constitution.
Mr. K. O'HIGGINS
In refusing to accept this amendment, put by Deputy Figgis, we do not wish to be taken as having any brief for membership of this Dáil by people of unsound mind; it is rather to other portions of the amendment that we have specific objections. This amendment, if carried, would immediately, on this Constitution being passed here, disqualify from membership of the Dáil all members of the armed forces. Now, the feeling among Army Officers is very strongly against members of the Army being mixed up in the internal politics of the country, and they realise inasmuch as the Army will become the instrument of any and every future Government, and must be prepared to serve with equal fidelity each succeeding Government, such a withdrawal and such a disentanglement is highly necessary. It would be, I submit, a more gracious thing to leave it to the Army to make the first move in that matter. To insert in the amendment a provision to this effect might, to some people, savour of an expulsion from this Assembly of all people who had the temerity to serve with the armed forces. Then, again, there is a clause of this amendment which would be decidedly controversial, and because controversial, ought not to find its place in the Constitution of the country, for we hold that the Constitution ought to embody only principles on which there would be the broadest possible measure of agreement. There is reference here to Civil Officers in the service of the State, which, I suppose, means Civil Servants. These are excepted in the same clause from this disability, as are Ministers of State. That is certainly a matter upon which we would have quite a lot to say later on. The Article in the Constitution, as it stands, makes reference to disability which may be imposed by law:—"Every citizen who has reached the age of 21 years and who is not placed under disability or incapacity by the Constitution or by law shall be eligible to become a member of the Chamber of Deputies/Dáil Eireann." Our feeling is rather strongly that the disabilities set out in this amendment of Deputy Figgis ought to be left over to be imposed by law.
Mr. THOS. JOHNSON
I would like to point out that the same effect is produced by the amendment as by the Article, and on the whole, I think the Article as it stands in the draft proposed by the Minister is preferable. Certain disabilities are to be imposed by law under the draft presented. Under the amendment as proposed legislation would have to be undertaken even to allow Ministers to be members of the Dáil so that legislation would be necessary right at the beginning. If that is so, it would apply just as well to legislation allowing, as to legislation denying. I do not think there is much advantage to be gained by putting a limiting clause in the Constitution.
Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS
I do not press the amendment, but I would like to say to Deputy Johnson that if he reads it again he will see he is not quite right with regard to Ministers. I withdraw the amendment.
Article 15 put and carried.