Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 3 Oct 1922

Vol. 1 No. 16

CONSTITUTION OF SAORSTAT EIREANN BILL (COMMITTEE). - PROPOSED NEW ARTICLE.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I beg to move the following new Article:—

"After Article 25, and to conclude Section II, Sub-Section (A), to insert the following Article:—

"During the period elapsing between the dissolution of the Chamber/Dáil Eireann, or the expiration of its term of office and its re-assembly, and also during any period when the sessions of the Parliament/Oireachtas have been adjourned or terminated, a Committee of twenty-four members shall be setup for the purpose of dealing with urgent matters, even in extreme cases, where legislation would normally be necessary, for supervising the exercise of executive and administrative powers, and for protecting the rights of the representatives of the people. In cases where legislative powers shall have been exercised by such a Committee, such legislation shall be submitted to the Parliament/Oireachtas immediately on its re-assembly, and shall lapse if it does not, within one month, receive the necessary assent of the Parliament/Oireachtas.

"This Committee shall be known as the Committee of Public Safety, and it shall be constituted of sixteen members from the Chamber of Deputies/Dáil Eireann and eight members from the Senate/Seanad Eireann. The election for each Committee of Public Safety shall be held before any and every dissolution or adjournment, or termination of session, and the election in each House of the Parliament/Oireachtas shall be held upon the principles of Proportional Representation. No member of the Executive Council, and no persons acting as assistants to members of the Executive Council, may act on the Committee of Public Safety.

"Immediately after its formation the Committee shall elect a Chairman from among the members elected by the Chamber of Deputies/Dáil Eireann, and a Vice-Chairman from among the members elected by the Senate/Seanad Eireann. Such Chairman and Vice-Chairman shall immediately on the re-assembly of the Parliament/Oireachtas make full and detailed report to their respective Houses of the work of the Committee of Public Safety since the last meeting of that House.

"Provided always that the Committee of Public Safety shall not have power to deal with any of the following matters:—

"(a) The election of any members of the Executive Council.

"(b) To suggest any amendments to the Constitution.

"(c) To impose any new taxes, or to change in any way the financial provisions enacted by the Parliament/Oireachtas.

"(d) To give consent to any direct participation in war.”

I have no right to say that this Article might or might not form part of the draft Constitution if the matter in it had been brought to our attention a little earlier. I certainly would have proposed it had my attention been called to it a little earlier. In reading down Constitutions that have been passed in the past three or four years in Europe, I have noticed that a provision of this kind is in every one of them and the wording of one of them has been used as the basis of this Article here. I will briefly explain the substance of it. It is this:—That between the meeting of one Parliament and the next, or between one Parliament and its re-assembling after a vacation, the Executive power is deposited in the hands of the Executive, but there is no legislative power whatever and there may be very important legislative decisions of very great moment necessary to be undertaken. Such occasions have arisen recently in Europe and the result has been that this, which is quite frankly, a constitutional innovation, has been debated and has been put into effect there, and it has proved of very great benefit; in several countries it has proved that a legislative committee has been of very considerable assistance to the Executive. In one such country the Committee has been called a Recess Committee. I have called it a Committee of Public Safety, using in that expression a certain form of words used by the late Commander-in-Chief when making some such proposal of this kind. I think possibly the word Recess would be much better; the matter of the title is indifferent; it is the matter of the substance I am dealing with. The matter of substance is that before the Chamber of Deputies shall be dissolved and before the Parliament shall be dissolved, or before it shall adjourn for any length of time, a small committee of twenty-four shall be elected by both Houses in the proportion of sixteen from the Chamber of Deputies and eight from the Senate, and that this Committee shall meet at such period as it shall decide and act, together with the Executive, and give it such assistance as it may require, and that certain powers should be vested in that Committee—that it should, as the amendment reads, be set up for the purpose of dealing with urgent matters even in extreme cases where legislation would normally be necessary for supervising the exercise of executive and administrative powers, and for protecting the rights of the representatives of the people. There are certain matters which should be excluded trom the authority of the Committee. They would include (a) the election of any members of the Executive Council; (b) to suggest any amendments to the Constitution; (c) to impose any new taxes or to change in any way the financial provisions enacted by the Parliament/Oireachtas; and (d) to give consent to any direct participation in war. In all other matters dealing with urgency the powers of the Dáil would be deposited in the Committee, so that in effect the Committee is a link between both Houses of the Legislature from one meeting until the next meeting. The Chairman would be selected from the Lower House and the Vice-Chairman from the Upper House. When the Parliament re-assembles the Chairman and Vice-Chairman would report to their respective Houses on the work done by that Committee, and if it should happen, as might be the case, that they were not elected during the period, they simply make their report and they conclude at that. The value of this—and I urge it upon the careful attention of this Dáil—has been proved as a democratic measure giving support to the Executive and practically keeping the powers of the Legislature in constant and continuous session.

Mr. E. BLYTHE

I do not suppose it will require many words in opposition to this proposal for the setting up of an oligarchy. The Executive is trusted with certain powers by the Parliament. The Executive bears responsibilty for the exercise of these powers. The Executive will consist of twelve members who will be, presumably, men whom the Dáil will trust most. The proposal is to set up a committee and to put them over the Executive. The committee will have no responsibility and it will be a committee chosen temporarily, and having all the irresponsibility that such a committee chosen for an interval will have. It is proposed to set up this committee and to put it over the head of the Executive and to endow it with legislative powers. When the Parliament itself exercises the power of legislation it has present all its members to vote and advise and protest on proposals of the Executive. This oligarchy, presumably, may sit in the dark for all this amendment says; in any case the members of the Executive are not allowed to be present. The Committee will sit and pass sentence on the Executive, and the Executive will have no power to vote there. The members of the Executive are expressly excluded from membership. Thus we are not only to have a committee of the Dáil without responsibility, as it must be in reality, entrusted with the powers of the Dáil and other powers greater than the Executive has, because the Executive has no legislative powers, but it is also to be made lob-sided as compared with the Dáil by the exclusion of the members of the Executive—those whom the Dáil has chosen as its leaders, and chosen to bear responsibility. There is really nothing to be said in favour of this proposal. It is undesirable a Committee appointed in such a way should have powers of raising or appropriating money. It is undesirable that it should be enabled to overthrow the Executive. Unless it can do one or other of these things, what power in practice could it profitably exercise? It is proposed to give this Committee the power of legislation, and then, if that legislation should not meet with the approval of Parliament, it should lapse. It is most undesirable that we should have legislation enacted, to be put in force for a week or two, and then allow it to lapse. Such a state of affairs would create endless confusion and also give rise to endless . At the present time recess is the period when the Executive can prepare legislation and schemes and proposals for Parliament. When Parliament is meeting and Ministers have to attend it is impossible for them to give sufficient attention to even what you might call the routine work of their Departments, let alone to give time to the consideration and preparation of legislation and other schemes of such a nature as would require to be laid before the Parliament. One of the advantages of this proposal is that it will deprive the members of the Executive of the opportunity which the recess gives them. I do not think I need say anything more with regard to this matter.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

The Minister for Local Government stated it was not necessary for him to make many comments on this amendment, as the Ministry proposed to oppose this amendment. I must say I appreciate the value of that argument.

Mr. BLYTHE

On a point of personal explanation, I did not say that.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

Possibly also it relieves him from the necessity of even reading the amendment, because it is perfectly clear he has not read the amendment. He says that the amendment excluded the Executive. The amendment never did anything of the kind. He says the amendment allowed for the passing or the appropriation of money. The amendment definitely says "Provided always that the Committee of Public Safety shall not have power to deal with any of the following matters:—To impose any new taxes, or to change in any way the financial provisions enacted by the Parliament/Oireachtas."

Mr. BLYTHE

Mr. Figgis is misrepresenting everything I have said. I distinctly said that this Committee should not have the power of appropriating money.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I took down his words at the time. The amendment distinctly stated that the Committee should not have the power of raising or appropriating money. I think that an amendment put forward in that way should receive very careful attention. I admit that it is a Constitutional innovation which has received attention in Europe to-day, and it has proved of very great help not only to the Legislature but to the Executive. Unfortunately amendments of this kind, I notice, seem to be regarded with some jealousy, as if one were impugning the present Executive. That is not so. If the Government are putting on their Whips against my amendment, I will not press it, but it is hardly in keeping with the pledge given us at an earlier stage, that the vital parts of the Constitution were the only parts on which the Government would put on its Whips. If that pledge were adhered to, we might get a better Constitution than if matters were rushed through, with the Whips put on on every occasion. I now withdraw the amendment.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

We have reached the end of the Orders of the Day, and the Dáil will therefore stand adjourned until 3 o'clock to-morrow. The Orders of the Day have been posted to the Deputies, and will reach them to-morrow morning.

Motion made and question put: "That the Dáil do now adjourn."

Agreed to.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.10 p.m.

Barr
Roinn