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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 4 Oct 1922

Vol. 1 No. 17

DEBATES ON ADJOURNMENT. - PRINCIPLE OF UNIVERSITY REPRESENTATION.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:

In connection with the first three amendments on to-day's paper, I would like to point out that, either by inserting words in Article 26 or by inserting a new Article, they aim at fixing in the Constitution the principle of representation for Universities in the Dáil. And I would suggest that the simplest way would be to dispose of the principle of the matter first. If it is proposed that every University in Saorstát Eireann is to be entitled to representatives in the Dáil, I think it would enable the Dáil to debate the matter with greater clearness and more expedition. If a motion to that effect is rejected, I think Article 26 will stand. If the motion were passed then the Minister in charge of the Bill would, I presume, undertake to put forward Article 26 subsequently with any changes that would be necessary consequent on your having adopted such motion. I understand that later on we will have from the Minister for Local Government an Electoral Bill, and when discussing that we can go into the question of the number of representatives for the University, that is, if it is passed. That could be done on the general question of machinery. I think the Dáil would be able to deal with the question more clearly now if it were not complicated by any question of numbers. Is that agreed?

The Dáil agreed.

Professor WILLIAM MAGENNIS:

In pursuance of the Ceann Comhairle's excellent suggestion, I move the following motion: "That the Dáil approves of the principle that every University in the Irish Free State (Saorstát Eireann) shall be entitled to elect representatives to the Chamber (Dáil Eireann), and that the draft Constitution be amended accordingly, and leave over the determination of the numbers and other conditions of electoral law, if this proposition commends itself to the wisdom of the Dáil. I have an uneasy consciousness that University representation is unhappy in its present advocate. Once upon a time Colonel Saunderson in the British House of Commons, condemning the sham self-government that Mr. Gladstone had proposed for Ireland, pointed with scorn to the Irish Parliamentary group, and cried: "There they sit, 86 solid arguments against Home Rule." History has a bad habit of repeating itself. There is another difficulty against the present advocate. Some members of the Dáil are aware that he has publicly spoken against the grant of the Parliamentary franchise to university graduates, and some sub-editor, by a freakish inadvertence, allowed the cardinal point of the speech to appear in his newspaper. The point, however, against which I directed my argument does not arise here, because I was speaking against privilege, and more particularly in this case, the privilege of the plural vote. Now, we have disposed of that already in an earlier Article. No citizen is to exercise the dual vote, and consequently this whole question of University representation is so far simplified. We are not asking that the mere fact that a man is a graduate of the University should entitle him to vote first in his ordinary civil capacity and secondly in a special capacity. I, as a convinced democrat, am as much an enemy of privilege as any member of the Labour Party. I have no hesitation in declaring as an article of faith, and accepting it as a dogma of democracy, that no public privilege or advantage, arising out of the accident of birth, race, sex or social standing, or any other sectional qualification, should be allowed by the State to confer privilege. Now, it is precisely in the name of democratic doctrine that I am recommending this University representation as a specially reserved thing to the Dáil, because it is not at all inconsistent, if you reflect on it for a moment, to declare one's self the enemy of privilege and then ask for this reservation. I am not an advocate here of any sectional advantage. There was a time indeed, and that not so very long ago, in one of the co-equal members of this Union of Free States, when to ask for this vote was unnecessary, as it was granted. They had then become an advocate of privilege, as universities were really a sort of clearing house for rich young gentlemen who went there to get a certain veneer, humorously called culture, and passed away either into the Army or Legislature or some high office. But the university has a different function to-day and plays a very different part in the National life. We have not yet built the educational ladder in Ireland, but I trust this Dáil is going to set about that great work, by which we shall not only have compulsory, free, primary education, but that everyone shall be able, by his brains and ability, to climb the whole way up and reach the highest and fullest measure of the highest education he could receive in his day. Higher education, it is now admitted, is the great condition to the attainment of the fullest stature of liberty, and many social problems that exist would have been solved long ago if it were not for the fetters of ignorance that lay so heavily on those responsible for the existence of the problem, and the failure to remedy the social ills with which the problem is concerned. Now. I look forward to the time when the university graduate voter, in this University representation that I venture to claim for you, shall include every stratum of the population, when we shall have—and there is no incompatibility whatever in it—men of every walk of life, engaged in all varieties of occupation, who have received this university stamp as a result of higher studies, and of having undergone what we claim, at least—the broadening and widening influence of university study and university culture. Consequently, the voter in this case will not be, as they would be in regard to other members, simply residents in a particular area. It is very hard to find any doctrine that meets with the assent of a large number of men that would be wholly wrong, and in some of the Bolshevist pronouncements you have a claim made for vocational representation. That draws attention to one of the weaknesses of the system of getting Parliamentary representation, merely by counting heads or looking at topographical areas. If a man happens to live at one side of a street his vote becomes inoperative, he is in a hopeless minority. If he lived on the other side of the street his vote would have carried into Parliament some great reformer. I do not, at all stand here to defend or make any plea for wholesale vocational representation, but I draw your attention to it, rather for the purpose of showing this, that whereas in a mistaken notion of democracy, and what democracy requires, you are willing to pass, and I have no doubt but you will pass the arrangements in this draft Constitution for representation according to areas and numbers of representation according to population, I am anxious to draw your attention to the truth, that you have here an opportunity for giving representation irrespective of the narrow boundaries and peculiar limitations of electoral areas. It is sufficient to show you that the claim for university representation is not sectional in an opprobrious sense. There is another point. When I read over the draft Constitution and thought of it in connection with the Chairman of the Drafting Committee, who had figured so prominently for so long in the public press, so that I became familiar from photography with every aspect of him, from every possible point of view, and thought of him as the author of a very interesting work called "The Gaelic State," I looked carefully through the draft Constitution to see the elements— the germ, the nucleus—of the Gaelic State that was to evolve out of this Constitution. I saw a great deal it derives from Teutonic Constitutions, many novelties from Switzerland, the new Constitution of Germany, the Constitution of the United States and the old Constitution of Great Britain, but I looked in vain—I hope I am wrong —for the traces of Gaelic civilization or the influence of Gaelic ideas. Now you have in this, the University representation, an opportunity to go back to an earlier conception of the social fabric, in alignment of its elements. In the old Gaelic days an t-ollamh—the professor— was next to the King. I think without asking for social privileges such as were attached to that office, that we might at any rate do something here in our institutions that would mark a public sense of the Gaelic spirit's desire to honour education—the great spiritual, the great vitalizing influence. It is an unfortunate thing for which our country is not to blame—yet the fact is there—that education is not respected in this country. It is only a sort of technical education that has a money value, that has a bread and butter value, that is regarded with any degree of esteem and the pursuing of knowledge for its own sake is commonly regarded as a species of folly, and culture is sneered at; even agriculture as a University study has been sneered at already in this Dáil. I think it is not contrary to public policy, but very much in the line of public policy to use every device devisable to imprint on the public mind, in Ireland, the fact that we do hold the pursuit of knowledge and the dissemination of education in high esteem, and that we do attach spiritual values to elements of life, in modern Ireland, as pronouncedly as they did ages ago. I feel that this is one of the disabilities of education in Ireland, that the popular view of the professor—the professor usually, though not always the University representative, is that he is an incompetent person, a strange and subtle blend of imbecility and scholarship. There may be some truth in that, at times, but I think if you have an agency for putting the professors as representatives of the University into close and continuous contact with the representatives of other activities of the Nation it will improve the Universities through their representatives. That is a decided practical advantage, and I think that would appeal to the utilitarian spirit. You may say, why not adopt the expedient of sending the professor out to the hustings and let him stand for a Constituency, like any other citizen. That may not always be desirable for the University. I need not labour that point. Even if the professor were likely to be regarded with favour by the Constituency, I am afraid he should have to become a partisan and espouse some political programme or stand upon some plank, and forget for the moment his desire to represent the attitude of attempting to take broad views and to relate things dispassionately.

Mr. GERALD FITZGIBBON:

I do not support this motion, A Chinn Chomhairle, in the interests of any constituency or minority, or class, or creed, and I am not standing here to afford my fellow-countrymen any pretext for offence by asking them to give University representation as a safeguard against any anticipated oppression of the minority in this Dáil. As far as I am concerned, as this proposal should stand or fall, its supporters may succeed or fail in satisfying you that it is in the interests of the country as a whole and not of any section or any individual in it, that its Universities should be permitted to send representatives to the National Assembly. One has only to look at the amendment on the list, which stands in the name of the leader of the Labour Party, to see the kind of legislation that this place is going to be faced with as soon as we have got rid of the Constitution, and that its successors are going to be faced with legislation of every kind: housing, transport by road, rail and water, development of the resources of the country, and, most of all, education. And what representatives are you going to have in this Assembly to deal with that? I am afraid that Irish history shows and the experience of other countries shows that once a country is cloven into political parties that only the determined representatives of those parties have any reasonable chance of finding a place in the Legislative Assembly. Canada is now dominated so far as the prairie provinces are concerned by a Farmers' Association. I have no doubt there will be a very large increased representation of the farmers here after the next election. You will find in a country like Ireland, where agriculture is the great industry, that the rural constituencies will send up either farmers or those who are interested in the farming industry, as tillers of the soil. That is to say, the owners and the workers upon the land are the two classes that will come here from the rural constituency; that is only human nature. A professor, often of the highest branch of metaphysics, even though he sits next to a king, has small likelihood of finding a farmers' constituency that will return him to this Assembly. The farmers know where the shoe pinches and they send the men that know their own interests to represent them here. It will be the same thing with the Cities. The fight there will be between the representatives of organised labour, on the one hand, and business, commerce and finance, I suppose, upon the other, and you will find the urban constituencies sending up representatives of that type and that alone. Now, when you come to deal with the legislation everybody here who has had any experience, whether as Lord Mayor or Alderman, or Town Councillor, or County Councillor, or even upon the Councils of a Trade Union, or the Council of the big Chambers of Commerce, or any other public body, knows perfectly well that the work of legislation goes on in committees. In a big assembly like this you debate the general question, but it is ten or twelve men sitting round a table that really deal with legislation. And as you in this Dáil, who framed our Standing Orders know perfectly well, it is round the table that the work is done, and it is during that work around the table when you hammer out the details of the principle of the Bill agreed upon here, that you will find the university representatives if you admit them, I prophesy, of invaluable services to the country. When you come, for instance, to harness the Liffey, or the Shannon, or the Lee, later on, to provide electrical power instead of the coal that nature has denied to Ireland, it is there the professor, the engineer, like my colleague, Professor Thrift, or Professor Purcell, of the National University, if he were here, and men of science like them, that will be able to do the work of these matters in committee. Similarly, when you come to deal with questions of housing, food and drugs, and matters of that kind, do you think that the leading members of the medical profession, the President of the College of Physicians, and men like that, would not be able to give valuable assistance, with their vast experience of this kind and their medical school education, and would not they be able to evolve great and valuable schemes? The thing most important of all in this country—and no one knows that better than the Labour members, and no one has pressed it more strongly upon the country than they—is the need for education. Every man sent here from the universities, with the solitary exception of myself, is a man who has devoted his life to education. Even Sir James Craig—though medicine is his profession—has been a teacher in that profession from the time he took it up. All these men are trained masters of education by profession, and when you come to frame what will be the most vital need of this country—Bills dealing with education—it is from the representatives of the universities that you will be able to get the greatest assistance of all that you can get to deal with that matter in committee. And that education is of vital importance to this country I do not think anyone will deny. Whether it is the system or the administration of the system that is at fault, I do not know, but one or other must be at fault, and one or other must be dealt with at once, now that we have a Parliament of our own, to frame a system of administration, suitable to the needs of our country. That there is something wrong I do not think anyone will deny, because it certainly is not the fault of the people, that you find 20 per cent. of the population of a large county illiterate, because no one has ever suggested that the Irish people are not the equals of any nation on earth, so far as intelligence goes, and if you find a percentage of ten, fifteen, or twenty— on an average 10 per cent., in more than half the counties of Ireland, illiterate, you may conclude that there is something wrong in the administration of the system, and it is when you come to reform that that men who have devoted their lives to education, who have seen people going out from the primary and secondary schools up to the universities, will be able to put their fingers upon the blot and tell you how to reform it. And as I told you you will not get these people from the other constituencies— you will not get many from the universities—three or four at the outside, but it is not numbers that count in that matter, but these men sitting round a table will be able to give to the others all the assistance they require in coming to a proper conclusion and in framing the details of their Bills. These are the grounds upon which I commend University Representation as essential to the Dáil. There is one other matter, which is a matter of expediency and not of principle. I do not suppose there was any speech delivered here since we met that struck the whole Dáil more profoundly than the speech of the Deputy for Cavan on the second day of our sitting, when he was dealing with the six counties, where there are people watching you with unfriendly eyes, and I am afraid if you reject this motion—I have not asked for safeguards —there are people who will say it is done because you are determined to eliminate the last vestige of minority representation. It will not be so construed by me, but it will fan the flame of mischief blazing up too brightly already. On the other hand if you pass this motion, I have no doubt whatever you will be putting a very powerful weapon in the hands of those—and they are neither few nor confined to the 26 counties—who are doing all they can to break down the barriers of misunderstanding and misrepresentation that keep Ireland divided to-day, and you will give those who are working for union—and the only union we are working for is the union of Ireland—a very powerful lever to try and bring that about. This is not a question of principle, it is more a question of expediency, and if there are any members in this Dáil wavering on that question, I think that argument might go far to turn the scale in favour of this proposition.

Sir JAMES CRAIG:

I desire to support the motion. The case has been put so clearly and forcibly by the speakers who have already spoken that I am sure the members of the Dáil have already made up their minds that the motion should be adopted. I do not think it can be denied for a moment that the University representatives have been of signal service since their entrance into the present Dáil. In your wisdom you have chosen a Speaker who is most impartial, but who has an iron hand beneath the velvet glove. You have elected the second of the National University representatives as your Minister for Education. A few days ago a London paper announced that Deputy MacNeill was the most distinguished and the most regarded member of the Dáil. I do not think anyone in this Dáil is going to deny the accuracy of that statement; and surely you are not going to reject this amendment and send Deputy MacNeill to the highways and byways of Donegal and Antrim to canvass for votes so that he may be present at a future Dáil. You have the much easier course here of adopting this motion and getting him in by an easier and surer method. The third representative of the National University, Deputy Magennis, has proved himself a fluent speaker, an able critic, a constitutional lawyer, and a great metaphysician. We could ill do without many of the criticisms that he has offered on the work of the Ministry. With regard to the members for Dublin University, for a long time Dublin University had the reputation of being the silent sister, and we who represent the University here have perhaps done our best to maintain the reputation of silence. However, Deputy Fitzgibbon has shown that he has been able to be of signal service in the Dáil, when opportunities arose in which his legal training and his legal knowledge revealed themselves. With regard to other members, I have not the slightest doubt when the occasion arises upon which our interests are centred, and upon which we think we have some special knowledge, we too will be able to give some service, at all events, to the Dáil. You have here experts in various directions. You have experts on labour, you have agricultural experts, you have rhetorical experts, you have experts on Constitutional law, and you have expert men on practically everything. Well, I do not see why you should not be greatly helped in this Dáil by the addition to it of men who have had the advantage of a University education and a University training, because if a University training and education does anything for a man it must broaden his views; that is, unless he becomes a mere book-worm. But, as long as the man remains in contact with his fellow human beings, I hold that a University education must not only broaden his views on every question, but greatly widen his sympathies with his fellow human beings. I remember reading somewhere an anecdote of a business man who, in conversation with a University Professor, said: "I have had the greatest success; I have made money; I have attained to great honour. Everything that I wanted has been pressed upon me, and what good would a University education have done me?" "Well," said the University Professor, "It might have had the effect of not making you boast so much about these things." I say that if you adopt this motion and bring the University representatives here, at all events you will not have men coming here to boast about their wealth, because I am quite confident no University Professor ever has any wealth. They have one of the worst paid jobs, perhaps, in the whole Kingdom. I sometimes wonder when I find myself sitting here why I am not sitting on the opposite (Labour) benches.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL:

Come over here.

Sir JAMES CRAIG:

A previous teacher of mine, a very distinguished man, had a class of students around a bed on one occasion, and he said to the patient in the bed: "What occupation have you?" "I am a labourer," was the reply. "But what kind of a labourer," asked my teacher. "I am just a labourer," said the patient. "Oh, well," pursued my teacher, "there are various kinds of labour; surely you know what particular kind?" "No." said the patient, "I am just a labourer." "Well," said the teacher, "you do not teach medical students, do you, because that is the hardest labour in the world." If it is the hardest occupation, I have been engaged in that occupation for the last 35 years. I think it has been pointed out that the adoption of this motion would not over-ride any of your democratic principles. I do not think anyone of us would come here to ask you to do so. I ask the Dáil to unanimously adopt the recommendation, because I am sure they are doing a right and proper thing, and they are going to do something that will bring credit to themselves. I had no intention of referring to it, but my colleague, Deputy Fitzgibbon, has alluded to the question of the union of the 26 Counties with the 6 Counties in the North. This is a point upon which I hardly feel called upon at the moment to speak; but I want to say this: Perhaps of any member in the Dáil, I have the most intimate knowledge of the mentality of the North, and of the mentality of the South. I think I can appreciate more clearly than any member of the Dáil the differences that exist between the two. It was my greatest hope when coming here, in addition to supporting the Government in carrying through the Constitution, to think that I might be of some use in trying to bring about good fellowship between the North and South.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON:

I listened with a good deal of interest and attention to the speeches advocating that the University should have special privileges of representation in the Dáil. All the arguments that have been adduced have been directed, not to giving University representation, not to giving special Franchise to University graduates, but to ensure that the University Professors should be selected as the representatives of these universities, but, judging by past experience, I do not think that we can say that University graduates have been particularly careful in the choice of representatives from their educational standpoint, from specialised knowledge on any particular subject—I am not referring to this Dáil. We know as a matter of fact that University representation in the past has followed the same course as representation of any other constituency. Men have been put forward on their political characters, and so far from the practice having been that men who specialised on particular subjects and men who would be of special use in the discussions on the particular subjects being selected, the great majority of those selected by universities in this country and other countries have been lawyers, not because of special ability to discuss political, social or economical questions, but because they happened to be anxious for legal preferment, and they considered that by their hold upon a University Electorate it was the easiest way to get that preferment. It may possibly be that following upon the carrying of this proposal members for the Universities would put forward a further proposal limiting to particular sections the University graduates who will have a chance of election to the Dáil. I do not know, but all the argument adduced so far has not been upon the character of the electorate but upon the qualifications of particular persons who would necessarily be elected. We have no assurance that the electors are going to elect these particular persons. We know in the last Dáil there were certain persons chosen to represent University graduates, who would not conform to the test put forward here. However, it may be said that is not a fair criterion of the future, but it is as good a criterion as anything that has been put forward yet. We know that party organisation has just been as effective in the selection of University representatives as in the other constituencies. The education test is put forward, but I maintain that the fact that men or women have graduated in a University does not fit them any more for the selection of representatives than the fact that men have become fathers, and women have become mothers, or men have done military service, or men have gone to sea. Far less does their experience under a tutor fit them for the selection of representatives to the Dáil than the ordinary experience of life of an ordinary citizen. I think Deputy Fitzgibbon or Deputy Professor Magennis, or both, argued that this is something in the nature of vocational representation, and it was in harmony with the amendment that is suggested to be considered after this is disposed of, but it is far from being vocational. You might say that children in the elementary schools are fitted by their particular experience under teachers to select representatives in some assembly and call it vocational, but it is not vocational, and it is no use trying to get the proposal carried on that ground. The facts are, it is an attempt to perpetuate a privilege of a particular section in the community. Perhaps it may not be in the minds of the advocates, but that is its effect, and will be its effect until you have built that ladder and make it available for all citizens to go through Universities, but even then it would not justify special representation for representatives of Universities in any Legislature. Again, my argument applies equally to preferential consideration that is proposed to be given to the Universities in the Senate. The proposal now is to add to the preferential representation of the Senate special privileged representation in the Dáil. I think that the case has not been made out, and I honestly listened attentively to find out if a good case could be made for special representation. It has not been made, and I for one will not support it. I may say this with regard to the suggestion about minority representation: that it is not going to avail anything, because the great majority—the majority of the representatives on any reasonable system of representation— would not be for supporting or giving benefaction to the minority, but I do not think that is worthy of any consideration at all. If people are going to be afraid to join hands with the majority of this country, and are going to be repelled by the fact that the Dáil is not going to give privileged representation, then I don't think any attempt should be made to invite them, and I am as willing as anyone to go a long distance to make it easy for our friends in the North to join with our friends in the South, in the Midlands and West, and the North-West. Unless a much stronger case is made by later advocates I propose to vote against the proposition.

Mr. WM. SEARS:

I agree with Deputy Johnson that most of the arguments put forward in favour of this motion fail to bring conviction. Now, the teaching body in Ireland, or in any country in the world, is a very important body, and deserves every consideration, but already every teacher and every graduate of a University has a vote, and if you give the teaching profession and graduates an extra vote you will be doing an injustice to other great interests and great professions. Education is a very important interest. Religion is another important interest, and if you give an extra vote to the Universities, could not the different Churches in Ireland come here and say they also are entitled to special representation? Might not the farmers say that they as a body representing a most important industry in Ireland—might not the Farmers' Executive claim that they are entitled to additional interest? Then the labourers' unions would next claim that they were also entitled to additional representation in the Dáil. It cannot be put forward on the grounds of vocational representation that it is a representation for vocational interest. If it was I think there would be a great deal to be advanced in favour of it. If the teachers of Ireland—University, Secondary and Primary—that is a very important body, and they alone are entitled to speak more than any other section for education—if a poll could be taken of these three sections of teachers I would say they would have a great right to come in here whenever the other great interests would be specially represented, but not till then. Now, the argument is made that when the great schemes would come to be deliberated upon by this assembly it would be of interest and advantage to have representatives of the Universities here. That is not to me a very strong argument.

This motion could not be made at a more favourable moment, because we have very popular Professors here, but I think to place a strong claim because Professors have proved sometimes to be useful politicians is a very unfortunate thing, because in this Dáil we have very short memories. One Professor could do as much damage as it would take one million Professors to make good in twenty years. It is a most unfortunate thing, but a Professor is a masterhand at wrecking. We are not to consider the motion on that ground anyhow; but there is one ground upon which this motion has been recommended, and it appeals very strongly to me, and I am sure it appeals very strongly to every man in this Dáil. There is a certain interest in Ireland for which three or four members here spoke, and they have spoken very eloquently and very persuasively on certain questions that have come up in this Dáil. We are all looking forward to the day when the twenty-six counties and the six counties will be amalgamated. I am sure that that small representation in this Dáil will be of the utmost advantage in bringing about that desired union between the North and South, and although it has been advanced that this motion has been recommended upon grounds that are opposed to all democratic principles, and I am strongly opposed to the motion for that reason. I say Professor Magennis's arguments are not convincing. Professors of the Universities are no more entitled to special representation than the other interests I have mentioned. If this special representation for which Deputy Fitzgibbon speaks would hasten by one day the time at which North and South will come together, then I think we should keep this representation here. For that reason, and although I have no great faith in political professors, I support this motion. The great movement that was brought to a success in Ireland in recent years—that great movement that culminated in this Dáil—was not brought about by professors.

Professor MAGENNIS:

It was by graduates.

Mr. SEAN MILROY:

I do not want to give you a dissertation upon the capacity of the University Professors, but I want to say that I am not going to give a silent vote. I am going to support this motion as emphatically as one voter can. Universities stand in an unique position, and should be, I think, the well-springs from which the whole vital springs of national intelligence flow. I have no doubt that some of our educational institutions in Ireland have a record in history that is not perhaps ideal; but I believe that, in the new Ireland that is now in the making, there will be a change of the most profound character, both in the outlook and influence of educational institutions that hitherto have been, to a certain extent, estranged from the national ideal. I think that it is not paying any compliment to say that the representation at this Dáil of, shall we say, the oldest existing University in Ireland has given us a very definite indication that there is a change in the outlook and the attitude of that institution. I do not think that there is any analogy between the position of the University and the other interests in the country. The other interests can secure their representation through ordinary common or garden politicians, such as myself, but I do think it is important that educational institutions, such as universities, should have a very definite and individual voice in such an assembly as this. I do not know—I have been somewhat at sea—as to whether, the suggestion is that university representation should be abolished. I gather that was the trend of the argument of some of the speakers. If so, I want to say that I, for one, am utterly opposed to that. I think it would be a reactionary step. I think it is not giving a privilege to what is a certain interest in the community, but it is securing that in the sovereign assembly of the nation, there shall come that particular phase of the national life which has a most profound, vital and far-reaching effect and influence upon the future and the present of the nation, securing from that particular phase of the national life an effective voice in the deliberations of the Assembly that is regulating the affairs of the nation. For that reason I strongly support the motion.

MINISTER for HOME AFFAIRS (Mr. Kevin O'Higgins):

Deputies will probably hear with a certain relief that there is no official attitude on this particular question, and that, in fact, there is no unanimity about it within the Government itself. It is simply a question that Deputies should consider carefully and decide absolutely on its merits. I would point out one thing— that, in the event of this motion being passed, certain amendments will probably be necessary in the provisions of the Seanad, because there is a rather liberal University representation provided for in the Seanad, and it would probably be necessary to alter that in the event of this motion being passed, but I anticipate that could be altered by agreement.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:

There is an amendment in to alter that.

Mr. O'HIGGINS:

Yes, but we would not consider ourselves absolutely free to alter the Seanad provisions without some consultation, at any rate, with the people who are parties to the agreement. Now I find it rather difficult to come to any definite decision on this matter. On the one hand you had the very able and very eloquent speeches of the University representatives here, and on the other hand, you have what is a general hope that in a very few years time you will have the spread of University education, so that within this Assembly you might expect to have many graduates of the University, graduates whether it be in medicine, law, engineering, science or agriculture. And remember that a good deal of the force of the arguments that were put forward by the University representatives disappears. Remember, too, that we must not, in considering the Constitution, take into consideration only the actual state of affairs in the country. The National University may, for instance, break up into several Universities. Are all these to have representation in this Dáil? Any Universities that come into existence in the future in Ireland, are we to be bound by the Constitution to provide representation for them too? In the Seanad, which has been described very correctly, I think, as a cooling Chamber, all those qualities that were claimed for a University representative get ample scope in the work of revising the measures that are passed here. These qualities come into play and will be. I have no doubt, most useful, as I think we all agree they are most necessary. The main objection to University representation was the plural voting, and I think it will be seen that one Deputy that spoke did not give consideration to the fact that plural voting of any kind is gone under an Article of this Constitution. A University graduate would have to decide whether he would prefer to vote in his constituency as a citizen or in his University as a graduate. It was largely with a view to emphasising the neutral attitude of the Government on this question that I rose at all, and I postpone giving my own decision on the matter until I hear further about it.

Mr. P.J. McGOLDRICK:

Ba mhaith liom focal a rá ar an rún atá os comhair an tighe. Sílim go raibh an rud sa ceart ach nílim sásta go raibh. sé ráite i mBéarla. Ba choir don Teachta na rudaí seo do chur i nGaedhilg. This is not a preference for Professors as I see it. This is a preference to education, and I think surely if we are going to proceed on the way that the people of Ireland would expect us to proceed we should not hesitate to give certain preferences to education. I think if there is any interest in the community that should get a preference, or if there is any preference to be given, it should be given to education. I would not be prepared to give any preference to Professors, notwithstanding the very able arguments adduced here. They may be very valuable in their own sphere and very useful, but when they come into a body that is not, perhaps, able to view things as they view them, and not so absolutely and precisely stuck on every formula and symbol as they are, I think they might find they would not be so valuable to the body themselves, and the body would at least in this agree with them. These would be matters for those who elected them, and in the election they should get selected not on account of their particular ability, as in view of the assistance they could render to the legislative body. Now, as to the Ulster argument, there is no Deputy here more firmly convinced that every effort should be made to secure National unification; but I would ask the gentlemen who put forward that argument do they really think that the area which at present stands aloof would be very much influenced by any preference given to education? I don't think they are concerned about progress on that road. They are much more concerned about progress on a different road, i.e., the road of moneymaking and development and all those things. These are interests which obsess them, I think, much more acutely than other such things as spiritual advancement, a Gaelic civilisation, or anything else like that for which education should stand. At the same time, there is, I think, some importance in the argument put forward that the additional representation this might secure would be accepted by them as a token of our desire to try and meet, as far as we can, all the interests that are in the whole community, and would show them we are disposed, here, to give any encouragement we can to them to try and fall in with their national requirements and the requirements of a united Irish Nation. Now this proposal is said to be undemocratic. I have never heard that education was not a democratic asset. It should be a democratic asset and should never be ruled out as undemocratic. If there is anything at all to be encouraged in the general interest of the community it should be education, because it is a democratic asset, and no man should otherwise regard it. It must only be deemed aristocratic in so far as the democracy may not be able to avail themselves of it to the extent that would sufficiently satisfy them. But in the future every element should have it as well as the aristocratic element, and it should be our desire to assist them. All the same we cannot afford to despise the ability of the Professors. From the skilful way in which they put forward this amendment I think they proved themselves men of ability, and I think they are men who, if they have any special interest to advance, would be well able to assist themselves. If they apply themselves to the general interest of the whole community and not to any particular departments, their assistance would be valuable, if they apply it in that way, and so I am going to support the amendment.

Mr. J.B. WHELEHAN:

I wish to support the general principle that Universities be represented in the Dáil, and, following the debate, I feel convinced that a great weight of opinion in this Dáil—indeed, to my mind the argument in this Dáil—is entirely in favour of representation of the Universities. Deputy Johnson made the only contribution to the argument against representation of the Universities, and he based his argument particularly on the fact that University representation in the past was of a mere political character. I would remind him that all representation in Ireland in the past, was of a political character. What applied to University representation applied to every Constituency in Ireland. But in the new Ireland which is coming, representation of constituencies will not be so much representation of a political character, but representation of class interest as far as I can see. The Labour Party is organising, and rightly so, that the Labour interest should be represented in the supreme authority in the country. The farmers are also organising, and they intend to do their utmost to be fully represented in the Dáil, and so on, with the trade and commercial interests. I hold that education will have a great need of representation in the new Dáil, because there is a possibility that with great class interests at stake, and keen class fights in the new Ireland, education may not be thought so much about, or not loom so large in the future Dáils. Another point was, that the Universities were the happy hunting grounds of lawyers. Well, I would only point out to him, that out of eight representatives in the Dáil, we happen to have only one lawyer, representing a University. In the past Dáil, I think it was something similar. And I do not think, judging by the valuable assistance which the representative of the legal profession in this Dáil has given us, during Committee here, that lawyers are altogether undesirable in the Dáil. I would submit to him that in view of the fact that the general principle of one man one vote is a matter of Constitution in the Saorstát, that he would accept the principle of University representation, and would submit to the Dáil that the principle be unanimously accepted, provided that Universities shall have four representatives for the whole country—four representatives only for the whole country. I think that it would meet the point raised by the Minister for Home Affairs, when he said that every new University that would crop up ought to have new representation. Proportional representation should work as well for the Universities as for the general body of constituencies. I warmly support the principle, the general principle, that Universities be represented in the Dáil.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:

What exactly is being discussed is the principle of any University representation—it being understood that the numbers and any other detail connected with the matter can be discussed when the Electoral Law is under discussion.

CATHAL O'SHANNON:

It is in opposition to the principles of University representation, that I rise. An attempt is being made to represent to the Dáil, that the object behind those who are advocating the representation of Universities in the Dáil is in order to give Education representation in the Dáil. Of course, that is not really the position at all, because, distinguished as are the University Members of the Dáil, and distinguished as are the graduates and professors and everybody else connected with the Universities, they are not the sole repositories of Education at all. I would be agreeable, if the Dáil were agreeable that there should be such a thing as vocational representation, and I would be agreeable that in such a thing the whole educational body of the country should be considered. But in that whole educational body, I would want to insist that everybody connected with education activity throughout the country should form the Constituency for representation. Some point was made a few moments ago, about votes, dual votes, and that sort of thing. I am not at the moment so much concerned with that sort of thing at all. What is at stake is the Constituency, and I object to the Universities as Universities being Constituencies, or being a number of Constituencies for representation in a popular or democratic Dáil. A Deputy says there is nothing objectionable from the democratic point of view of Education being represented. But it is not Education and it is not the Educational body that representation is claimed for here at all. Representation is claimed for the Universities. There is no thought at all about the Secondary Educational Establishments or the Primary Educational Establishments. Nothing but the University Educational Establishments. I do not know in any other country except Britain is there such a thing as a University claiming representation or getting representation. I cannot find a single reason why the Belfast University, the National University or Trinity should get representation that is denied to a similar party or bodies of people, of as much national importance to the country as they are. And as to the argument that, if this thing is done, it would persuade some people up in the North that this Dáil is a tolerant body, and that it is not going to bite their heads off if they come into the Free State, I do not think any consideration should be given to that argument at all; because the ordinary point of view of Irish Nationality in the North of Ireland is not on these lines. It will not persuade the ordinary opponent of Irish Nationality in the North of Ireland. Their argument is that the Irish people are not fit people for them to obey the majority or to live with. Representation in the Universities will not do away with that objection at all. A great deal will have to be done before that is brought about, because the opposition does not come so much from people in the North who have got University education. It comes from a big, solid body of people in the North who, from our point of view, are very much prejudiced and ignorant of facts; and if we adopt in principle this motion, it will not change those people at all. There is no valid argument advanced here to-day why Universities as Universities should have representation. I might as well claim that the Port of Dublin, and the Port of Cork and the Port of Galway and other places should have separate representation because they are ports. Now, I do not claim it. I am an advocate of educational representation in the National Legislature, but I do not claim that a particular number of people in a particular port or in a particular number of ports should have representation, and there is no reason in the wide world why graduates, any more than anybody else should have representation. Deputy Whelehan points out that it is true that in Ireland all representation was decided upon party lines. That was quite true, and to a large extent it will be true in the future, and as true of Universities as of every other constituency. He says that in future representation, will be decided on the issue between class and class. That to some extent will be true; and that is the very reason why we, at least I, am opposing and am opposed to representation of Universities, because the representation of the Universities in present circumstances will give special representation to classes or castes. It is not any use turning round and telling us, as some Deputies tell us, that the working people of the country ought to have as good an opportunity of getting into the University as anybody else. That does not affect the matter. You must take the position as it stands, and there is no particular reason why Universities as Universities should have representation. Now, if I want to suggest compromise that would meet some of the objections, I might suggest that all the Universities in Ireland might form one constituency for representation in this Dáil or some other Chamber. But that, of course, would not meet the views of the advocates of University representation, and it would not meet the views of people who claim that this would be an argument for bringing the North into the Free State; but I am not willing to go into compromise on this thing at all. I am definitely opposed to the representation of the Universities as Universities. There is not a single argument for it, and it is vain for them to get up and say they are working in favour of the representation of education, because they are not. They are working in favour of the representation of one out of several educational bodies. There is no reason at all, if Universities as Universities have special representation, why secondary schools should not have representation, and there is no reason why technical schools should not have representation. And if it went to that, I really could see no argument for representation of Universities. There is a certain type of school or college in Ireland which I think is much more entitled—I do not say any one or type that I may mention is entitled—but if I said any one was entitled this particular class would be much more entitled than Universities, in my opinion. The educational activity I mean is a number of Irish Colleges that are making an attempt to revive and extend the National language of the country and the National culture, literature, and everything else. They, in my opinion, would be much more entitled to representation if any special educational body was to get it. I do not say they are entitled to it, but I do say Universities are not. Another argument, if I was arguing in favour of these establishments, would be that Irish Colleges, Colasití Gaedhilge, would bring into the Dáil an element which I would like to see in it, an element that would not consider the National language a Constitutional or legal fiction.

Professor WM. MAGENNIS:

Deputy O'Shannon is usually so well informed as to his facts that at least we can, as a rule, accept them even though we reject his doctrine. To-day he has been sadly astray, inasmuch as his facts are based on his doctrines and not upon observation. He has misconceived the whole nature of the University and in doing so quite naturally rejects my motion. If my proposition to retain University representation in the Dáil were what he has represented, I should vote against myself, because what would it be but a demand for representation for one section, and that a very small section, of the National community. He spoke about other teachers as if the claim were for a certain type of teacher—the University type. Why, he forgets that the University is in the whole educational organism, the brain and nervous system, and he would not talk about dividing the man. Why, should he talk about dividing the educational organism? The graduates are largely the very teachers he wants sectional representation for. If we had a properly organised system of education, everything co-ordinated, and everything working harmoniously in one splendid machine, no one would be allowed to teach in a secondary school who had not a University diploma. At the present time one of the blighting influences of education is that anyone can start a school in Ireland, and there is no authority to demand a diploma, and the children may be destroyed. He is simply a dangerous and unlicensed practitioner. Primary as well as secondary teachers ought also to be graduates. In every properly civilised country the whole educational system there is not merely downwards but upwards right through the whole body. I am not standing here to ask representation for a class, nor do I greatly care whether professors are returned or not—presumably they may, presumably they may not— but probably the majority at least of University representatives will be professors. What ground is there for the assumption used by our friends on the Left that because a certain University that had representation in the Imperial Parliament long ago had its franchise utilised for the professional advancement of lawyers—what ground is there to assume that in the new Ireland, with an absolutely different condition, a healthier and more National condition, that the same result will follow? We had it pursued even at the initial stage of the Constitution. I would retort to the argument of Deputy Johnson, who would not have professor-politicians, and would not have lawyer-politicians; but he would have workingmen politicians. He wants a large representation here, and, what is more, has secured it by our passing the Universal Suffrage Bill a few evenings ago, so that plumbers, bricklayers and carpenters and the rest, shall through their unions, have representation. We know what Trade Unions can do in securing vocational representation, even though it is not called by that name. We know very well the political strings that can be pulled, and how they are pulled. We are not children in this matter. A suggestion made by Deputy Sears seems rather astonishing because one man he ventures to think was a Professor has misled the country so woefully that Professors are apt to be objectionable. Why, the individual to whom he refers was never a Professor. He was a candidate for a Professorship in the National University on one occasion. I do not remember how many votes he received, if he received any.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON:

You elected him a Chancellor.

Professor MAGENNIS:

Quite so. The politicians were able to do that, but it does not become some people here to reproach them for what they did. I base the argument for University representation on the desire to get back to Gaelic conditions. Are you going to make Irish Ireland a phrase we hear so much about and forget when it comes to practical construction? Where can Deputy Darrell Figgis or whoever is responsible for the Constitution, show me the trace of the influence of Gaelic civilisation in any Article of the draft Constitution? It is the most British production we have ever seen. I want to introduce into it a little leaven that will leaven the whole mass.

CATHAL O'SHANNON:

In answer to the Deputy may I point out that we argued that in the past University representation was largely a matter of political position and that it was used by lawyers for preference. We do not mean to suggest that because lawyers take advantage of it more than other people do, that therefore we were opposed to lawyers coming into the Dáil. Not at all. Deputy Johnson said, and I thoroughly agree with him, that the more lawyers we have in the Dáil sometimes the better. But as regards that argument about Trades Unions getting vocational representation, they do not get vocational representation. I know perfectly well that Deputy Magennis knows the difference between vocational representation and the getting of representation through the ordinary constituency. The present constituency is theoretically returning the representative of the whole constituency. He may be a bricklayer, a lawyer, or somebody else, but theoretically he is the representative of the whole constituency. Those who are advocates of vocational representation would rather take a constituency not confined to a small geographical area, but one confined to a number of people engaged in pretty much the same vocation; but those members returned by that constituency would rather be in the nature of delegates than the representatives of citizens—they would rather be in the nature of delegates or Deputies representing people in that vocation. Deputy Professor Magennis, of course, knows that perfectly well. He sees the whole logic of our argument against his motion, but he must make a case, and therefore he makes the best case he can.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS:

I do not propose to answer the challenge that has been made by Deputy Magennis here. because if I did I would not go very far before you would call me to order. Therefore, the challenge was perfectly safe to put here. But I will be quite willing to meet Deputy Magennis in some other place, and to point out to him that it is an entirely Gaelic production. I only take this opportunity of saying that I have long been of opinion that Universities should not be represented here in this Chamber. Analysing my reasons for it, I found that the fundamental reason was that it would be, in the ordinary meaning of the word, an undemocratic procedure to allow electors to exercise more than one vote, accepting the principle of one vote one person. The Constitution perfectly clearly defines that, and it is not possible under the Constitution, even with such amendments as will be now put to the Chamber, to allow any one voter to exercise more than one vote. Consequently that goes. I have not only listened to the arguments in this place, but I have been privileged to share certain arguments that went to the making of these amendments, and I am prepared to vote for them. The reason that I do so is this, that I realise that more and more in the future people will become more and more specialised representatives in a legislative Assembly. In spite of the fact that the constituencies for the Chamber of Deputies under this Constitution are chosen by topographical and geographical definitions, more and more, you will find under the influence of the kind of legislation decreed in this Constitution, the representatives who are returned will be representatives not of districts, but of certain kinds of vocation, and therefore there will be in the ultimate result a certain kind of person —you can call him a Professor, or whatever you like—a certain kind of specialised representative for whom no place would be found unless Universities found a refuge for him. It is because I think that that kind of person would give valuable help in making legislation efficient by technical service and expert experience, that the question of University representation here might be tried. Nevertheless, I believe that a number of Deputies in this Dáil who will vote for the motion will vote for it with a certain measure of reserve, that their conviction, while still being at this moment a conviction, will not be to the extent of one hundred per cent. I believe Deputy Fitzgibbon, with whom I have spoken on this matter, would agree with what I am about to say, that if it should be proved that the kind of person whom it was intended to bring into the Chamber by reason of University representation should not be returned now, but that the same kind of person would come in through the ordinary constituencies, then, at some subsequent time, a decision might be taken that the Universities were not suitably acquitting themselves of the responsibilities placed upon them, and that the representation might be removed. If that were so it would mean a certain alteration or amendment of this Constitution in one important feature. That will be coming on later on, and therefore in mentioning the fact that I intend to vote for the motion I would like to take the opportunity of mentioning that it would be well if Deputies were to look ahead in this Constitution and give some attention to the Article that will appear, a great deal later, respecting amendments to this Constitution. I think that the process of amending or revising the Constitution might be made simpler than it is now in respect of such matters as this. We know very well that the experiment in this Dáil was a very excellent and successful experiment, but it might not always prove so. I would like also that the Ministry would consider the matter that has been mentioned by the Minister for Home Affairs, because, if one looks down through the list of amendments consequential upon the adoption of this motion now under the attention of the Dáil; it will be found that the mover of this motion proposes that University representation should be removed from the Seanad. I believe that it would be unwise to have University representation, in any case, in both Chambers. If it is to be introduced into the Chamber it should be removed from the Seanad, and I imagine that there would be hardly any difficulty in respect of contractual obligations undertaken by the Ministry to remove such representation from the Seanad. In view of the nature of the persons who have advocated the motion now under the consideration of the Dáil, and for the reasons I have given, with such guarded provisos as I have thought fit to make, I will vote for the motion.

Question put and carried.
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