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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 6 Oct 1922

Vol. 1 No. 19

ABHAR RÚIN ÓN AIRE UM AIRGEAD.

(Motion by the Minister for Finance):—

DE BHRI go bhfuil Stát-Chiste an Rialtais fé Rialacha áirithe do dhin an Rialtas agus do foillsigheadh san “Iris Oifigiúil” den 7adh Abrán, 1922, agus do cuireadh in Ordú an Rialtais (Aistriú Feidhmeanna), 1922.

WHEREAS the Exchequer of the Government is subject to certain regulations made by the Government and published in the “Iris Oifigiuil” of the 7th April, 1922, and embodied in the Provisional Government (Transfer of Functions) Order, 1922.

AGUS DE BHRI gur chuir an Rialtas in úil don Dáil seo gurb é leas na Seirbhísí Puiblí agus go bhfuil sé riachtanach chun a gceart-riara go bhfadófaí an tamal aimsire de mhí amháin tar éis an chéad chruinnithe den Dáil seo, an teora a chuireann na rialacha roimh-ráite le feidhm na rialacha roimh-ráite maidir le díoluíocht as Stát-Chiste an Rialtais Shealadaigh, agus go bhfuil riail déanta ag an Rialtas ag fadú an tamail roimhráite mar sin, riail atá sa Liost atá scríbhte fé seo.

AND WHEREAS the Government has represented to this Dáil that it is in the interest of the Public Services and necessary for their due administration that the period of one month after the first meeting of this Dáil, by the said regulations limited for the application of the said regulations to payments out of the Exchequer of the Provisional Government, should be further extended, and the Government has made a regulation so extending the same period, which regulation is set forth in the Schedule hereunder written.

ANOIS AR AN ABHAR SAN molann an Dáil seo anso Ordú an Rialtais agus an leasú san de sna Rialacha atá sa Liost roimh-ráite a ghabhann leis seo.

NOW THEREFORE, this Dáil doth hereby sanction and approve of the Order of the Government and such amendment of the regulations as is contained in the said Schedule hereto.

AR CHOINIOLL ná raghaidh iomláine an airgid le chéile do díoladh no atá le díol as Stát-Chiste an Rialtais Shealadaigh i dtaobh na Seirbhísí um Sholáthar fé sna bun-rialacha roimh-ráite agus fé sna rialacha leasuithe roimh-ráite thar £18,953,475 ar fad.

PROVIDED that the aggregate amount of the sums paid or to be paid out of the Exchequer of the Provisional Government in respect of Supply Services, under the said original regulations and the said amended regulations, shall not exceed in the whole the sum of £18,953,475.

LIOST.

SCHEDULE.

DE BHRI go raibh an coiníoll so leanas i sna rialacha a rialuíonn Stát-Chiste an Rialtais Shealadaigh do dhin agus do mhol an Rialtas Sealadach agus atá i bhfeidhm ón ladh Abrán, 1922, rialacha atá mar abhar d'Fhógra Puiblí, Uimh. 7, do foillsigheadh san “Iris Oifigiúil” den 7adh Abrán, 1922:—

WHEREAS the regulations governing the exchequer of the Provisional Government, made and sanctioned by the Provisional Government, and in force as from the 1st April, 1922, which regulations are the subject of Public Notice No. 7, published in the “Iris Oifigiuil” of the 7th April, 1922, contained the following proviso:

“Ar choiníoll go mbeidh go dtí an chéad Chruinniú den Pháirlimint Shealadach (eadhon an Pháirlimint go mbeidh an Rialtas Sealadach freagarthach di) agus go ceann mí 'na dhiaidh sin, pé airgead a bheidh riachtanach chun díol as costas aon tseirbhíse puiblí atá fé riara an Rialtais Shealadaigh agus a bheidh deimhnithe bheith riachtanach ag Aire na hAireachta a riarann an tseirbhís sin d'áirithe, agus (ach nuair is é an t-Aire an t-Aire Airgid) a bheidh ceaduithe ag an Aire Airgid, ar choiníoll go mbeidh an t-airgead san le díol as Stát-Chiste an Rialtais Shealadaigh fé mar a bheadh costas na seirbhíse puiblí sin le héileamh ar agus le díol as Chiste Có-Dhlúithte an Rialtais Shealadaigh no as pé tora fhásfaidh as an gCiste sin.”

“Provided until the first Meeting of the Provisional Parliament (being the Parliament to which the Provisional Government shall be responsible) and for a month thereafter, any sums required for defraying the cost of any Public Service administered by the Provisional Government, certified by the Minister in charge of a department by which the service is administered to be so required, and (except where the Minister is the Minister of Finance) approved by the Minister of Finance, shall be payable out of the Exchequer of the Provisional Government, in like manner as if the cost of the Public Service were payable out of and charged on the Consolidated Fund of the Provisional Government or the growing produce thereof.”

AGUS DE BHRI go bhfuil sé riachtanach chun riara na Seirbhísí Puiblí go bhfadófaí an tamal de mhí roimh-ráite go mbunófar Rialtas agus Páirlimint Shaorstáit Eireann no go dtí an séú lá de Mhí na Nodlag, 1922, pé'ca is túisce.

AND WHEREAS the administration of the Public Services requires that the said period of one month should be extended until the establishment of the Government and Parliament of the Irish Free State, or the sixth day of December, 1922, whichever be the sooner.

ANOIS DINIMID-NE, an Rialtas Sealadach do bunuigheadh go cuibhe do réir téarmaí an Chonnartha idir Shasana agus Eire do signigheadh i Lundain ar an 6adh lá de Mhí na Nodlag, 1921, DINIMID ANSO, le feidhm na gcomhacht uile a chuireann so 'nár gcumas, a ORDÚ AGUS A FHOILLSIÚ mar leanas:—

NOW WE, the Provisional Government, duly constituted pursuant to the terms of the Treaty between Great Britain and Ireland, signed in London on the 6th day of December, 1921, DO HEREBY, in exercise of all and singular the powers us hereunto enabling ORDER AND DECLARE as follows:—

Déanfar an tamal aimsire go mbeidh na rialacha roimh-ráite i bhfeidhm d'fhadú go dtí dáta bunuithe Rialtais Shaorstáit Eireann no go dtí an séú lá de Mhí na Nodlag, 1922, pé'ca is túisce, agus leasófar dá réir sin an coiníoll roimh-ráite thuas leis na focail “agus go dtí an séú lá de Mhí na Nodlag, 1922, no go dtí bunú Rialtais Shaorstáit Eireann pé'ca is túisce” do chur in ionad na bhfocal “agus go ceann mí 'na dhiadh sin.”

The period during which the said regulations shall apply shall be extended to the date of the constitution of the Government of the Irish Free State or the sixth day of December, 1922, whichever shall be the sooner, and the said above mentioned proviso shall be amended accordingly by substituting for the words “and for a month thereafter” the words “and until the sixth day of December, 1922, or the constitution of the Government of the Irish Free State, whichever shall be the sooner.”

MINISTER for FINANCE (the President)

The resolution which I now submit to the Dáil asks for approval of a certain change of the regulations which have heretofore governed the issue of funds out of the Exchequer for defraying the cost of the public services. To explain this matter briefly I may say that the effective and formal transfer of financial functions from the British Government took place on the 1st April last. On that day the Exchequer of the Provisional Government was constituted. Into it were paid from that day forward all taxes collected in the area of jurisdiction of the Provisional Government, and out of it were issued the sums required for maintaining the public services.

In the normal course the issue of funds for public services must necessarily be authorised by more or less detailed enactments of the Legislature. It has not, of course, been possible as yet to deal with the financial business of this country on these settled lines, and until the Constitution of the Irish Free State can come into operation, procedure of an emergency character is inevitable.

At first, therefore, it was provided by regulations made by the Provisional Government that the authority for the ordinary issue of funds out of the Exchequer should in the case of a given Department, be a certificate signed by the Minister in charge of the Department, and where that Minister was not the Minister for Finance, the certificate was required to be approved by the Minister for Finance. This arrangement was made in the first instance for a period which was intended to end on the expiration of a month after the meeting of this Dáil, that is on the 8th of this month. In present circumstances, while the Constitution still awaits adoption, it is considered impracticable to terminate the arrangement on that date, and, therefore, the amended regulation now submitted for approval aims at extending the temporary scheme up to the date on which the Government of the Irish Free State is constituted, or the 6th December next, whichever is sooner. The 6th December, as the Dáil is aware, will be the anniversary of the Treaty and the date of expiration of the arrangement made by the Treaty for a Provisional Government.

In adopting the extension which I have explained, the Government have thought it proper at the same time to abandon the discretion which up to this has necessarily remained with them as to the amounts of the Exchequer issues, for which Ministers may certify. The resolution which I propose consequently contains a proviso to the effect that the aggregate amount which under the temporary procedure may be issued out of the Exchequer in respect of Supply Services for the period from the 1st April last to a date not later than the 6th December next, shall not exceed £18,953,475. If any issues for the services in question should seem to be required in excess of this amount during the period mentioned, it is proposed to submit the matter to the Dáil for previous consideration. That, I think, should be in accordance with the views of Deputies generally and of their constituents outside.

At this stage I do not propose to say anything further on the somewhat technical though important features of the resolution with which I have so far been dealing, as I wish to take the opportunity of laying before Deputies such information as I think may be of use, and as they will probably desire to have regarding the figure of nearly nineteen millions mentioned in the resolution and other figures which have a bearing upon it. The figure in the resolution represents the estimated cost of the ordinary public service in the twenty-six Counties during the period from the 1st April last to the 6th December next. It has had to be prepared somewhat hurriedly by the Ministry of Finance which is working at great pressure. Necessarily, owing to the disturbance arising from the change of Government and other difficult conditions of these times, estimates are not as easily framed as when a settled Government is working on established lines. But even allowing for such factors, it may be taken that the figure given is a reasonable approximation to expenditure that will probably be required.

In a paper which has been circulated, the details which make up the total of £18,953,475 are set out according to the several services to which they relate, and in addition, figures are given showing the estimated provision required for the same services for the full financial year from 1st April, 1922, to 31st March, 1923. The aggregate for the full year is £37,709,586. For comparison with these figures the Dáil will, no doubt, be interested to have a statement of the sums issued from the Exchequer for the like services for the half year ended Saturday last, the 30th September. The issues in question for the half-year amount to a total of £9,544,044, the chief items being as follows:—

Army

£1,863,000

Public Education

1,802,100

Old Age Pensions

1,191,000

Post Office

1,150,000

Ministry of Industry and Commerce

441,700

Relief Grants

270,044

Property Losses Compensations

252,500

Other issues of less than £250,000 each

2,573,700

Of course Deputies will understand that these figures of Exchequer issues for a given period are not an exact indication of expenditure for the period. Some of the money issued out of the Exchequer will be in the hands of Departments or Officials and will not yet have been actually disbursed to defray public charges. On the other hand—and this is especially likely to happen in the transition state through which we have been passing— liabilities incurred in a given period will be outstanding to a certain extent at the end of a period. To form a fair impression of the cost of the public services in the past half year some addition must probably be made on this account to the figure of nine and a half millions which I have given for Exchequer issues. It will be one of our special aims as conditions get more settled to reduce the interval between the maturing of a liability and the discharge of it.

I will ask Deputies specially to bear in mind the figure of thirty-seven and three-quarter millions which is given on the paper as the net total of the estimate for 1922-23. I regret to say that this does not represent the whole of our possible commitments for the year. It covers the ordinary public service for which Parliaments as a rule provide money by annual vote. But there are additional liabilities, actual, probable and possible, which must also be borne in mind. Of these one important class consists of the fixed charges which are mandatory under existing law, chiefly certain local taxation grants and the salaries and pensions of judges. This class requires a provision of about £1,350,000. Next are two items which are in the nature of capital charges, namely, £105,000 for Telephone development and over £600,000 to be advanced to meet an anticipated deficit in the Unemployment Fund. In referring to this item I should like to call special attention to the fact that an abnormal burden is being imposed on the State at present to provide Unemployment Insurance benefit by reason of the omission of many persons to comply with the requirements as to stamping Unemployment Insurance cards. It is essential that those concerned should realise their responsibilities in this connection and do their part towards the restoration of normal conditions and the support of stable government by discharging their obligations in this respect. The situation in this matter has become such as to demand the strict enforcement of the penalties prescribed for non-compliance.

There remains the third category of cases in which claims are being made against us by the British Government in respect of charges under the Land Purchase Acts and other heads. The amount involved here is perhaps a million a year. Even excluding this amount as being in dispute, it will be seen that the estimated total sum required by the Government in the current financial year is only a little short of £40,000,000. The payment of compensation claims in respect of damage before and after the Truce accounts for a quarter of this total. Of course this is not anything like the entire or even the main part of the compensation liability, but only the provision which is expected to be required to meet payments that will actually be issued before the 1st April next. Leaving compensation aside, we have to find perhaps £30,000,000 to defray the cost of ordinary government, including the Army for the current financial year. What resources have the Government and the country at their disposal to meet this heavy burden? It must certainly be confessed that if the burden were to be a continuing burden and if the public and the Government by loyal co-operation in the establishment of order and other necessary measures do not reduce the public charges, we have not sufficient resources and can only see before us the prospect of following the path of financial and other folly, which has brought several of the countries of Continental Europe to the condition of abject misery in which they now find themselves. But there is no need for alarm or for taking dismal views if the growing sense of civic responsibility and patriotism brings our people to the realisation of the great economic and social prospects that lie before them provided that they turn while there is still time from destruction to construction.

I will ask Deputies to bear with me while I attempt to summarise the position in which we find ourselves respecting the finding of the funds that are necessary for public purposes.

The revenue actually received into the Exchequer for the half year from the 1st April up to and including Saturday last the 30th September, has been as follows:—

Customs

£1,097,000

Excise

7,885,000

Motor Vehicle Duties

Nil

Estate Duties

418,000

Stamps

161,000

Property and Income Tax(including Super-tax and Mineral Rights Duty)

1,119,000

Corporation Profits Tax

179,000

Excess Profit Tax

75,000

Post Office

350,000

Miscellaneous

180,107

Total

£11,464,107

This total figure of £11,464,107 represents the revenue actually collected into our Exchequer in the period mentioned. For various reasons, however, it cannot be taken as accurately representing the true revenue of the Irish Free State in the period.

For example, as regards the customs which is shown as providing £1,097,000 there are several foreign commodities such as tea which frequently come to us via Great Britain. On landing at the British port they pay duty there, and although they come to Ireland for consumption the tax is credited in the first instance to Great Britain where it was in fact collected. For this reason the Customs duty collected in our area and paid into our Exchequer does not represent the full Customs duty on the foreign goods which we consume.

To meet this point it has been arranged that the proceeds of any taxes collected in Great Britain or Northern Ireland which are properly attributable to the Irish Free State shall be paid over in due course into our Exchequer. No adjustment of this kind has in fact yet taken place and the figures which I have given represent the actual collection.

The figure I have given for Excise is £7,885,000 or over two-thirds of the total revenue. The Excise which consists mainly of the duties on beer and spirits has long been a chief factor in Irish revenue. But the amount of this duty collected here is largely in excess of the amount attributable to home consumption. In 1920-21 there was collected under this head in the whole of Ireland about 23½ millions, but of this only 15 millions was treated as true Irish revenue. The reason for this is, of course, that much of the output of our breweries and distilleries having paid duty here, is removed to Great Britain for consumption.

It will, therefore, be seen that of the £7,885,000 which we have collected under the head of Excise a substantial portion cannot be said to belong to us at all, and just as we must expect from Great Britain a supplementary payment in respect of customs, so on the other hand are we obliged to surrender that portion of our Excise receipts which cannot be regarded as pertaining to our own area.

The next head of revenue is Motor Vehicle Duties, for which a nil return is shown. This does not mean that there has been no collection of tax under this head, but only that there is no tax collected which has yet reached the Exchequer. When the Provisional Government entered on their task they did not find in existence any operative machinery for the collection of this tax. That state of affairs has since been rectified and proper arrangements have been made with the County Councils for the registration and licensing of motor vehicles and the payment of duty. The receipts of this duty are at present lying to credit of outside accounts, and it is intended shortly to make a transfer to the Exchequer.

The heads of Estate Duties, Stamps and Corporation Profits Tax, which together have yielded £758,000 call for no special comment. The receipt of £75,000 in respect of Excess Profits Tax represents an arrear for a past period. It is well to have it made clear as regards arrears of tax generally that these are now payable to our Exchequer and become the property of this Government. There appears to be still a certain amount of misunderstanding about this, and a number of persons are understood to have hesitation in paying up arrears of Income Tax through a false impression that this country would not have the benefit of it. There is no longer any excuse for such an attitude.

The yield of Income Tax including Super Tax, has been £1,119,000. This figure is probably three millions short of what it ought to be, especially as there were considerable arrears due on 1st April which are payable to our Exchequer. Now, however, that taxpayers are beginning to realise that the revenue they contribute goes directly to the Irish Exchequer and will be applied exclusively for purposes approved by the Dail, it may be expected that the hesitation which many honest people in this country have heretofore felt about meeting Income Tax demands will give way to a serious sense of public duty, and that this will be reflected in improved receipts under this head in future.

The figure of £350,000 given for Post Office revenue is only a payment on account in respect of the gross revenue of the Post Office. There is no net revenue from this source.

The miscellaneous Revenue of £180,107 consists mainly of sums collected in respect of public loans previously advanced by the British Government. In so far as such sums have subsequently to be surrendered to the British Exchequer in liquidation of the advances there is no net gain under this head.

It is a matter of much guesswork to form an Estimate of the full amount of our real revenue for the current financial year. As a rough indication of the position it is perhaps not safe on present indications to count upon a total of more than £27,000,000, of which nearly £1,500,000 represents the gross Post Office Revenue.

Deputies can now draw their own conclusion from the figures I have laid before the Dáil. Without scrutinising smaller items which in other circumstances would be of much consequence they will, I am sure, appreciate the salient fact that the financial burden of enormous compensation charges and a great Army is one which has perhaps already strained the resources of the country to the danger point, and which has undoubtedly deprived the country of the means by which great public benefits and reform might otherwise have been accomplished.

In conclusion, I have a few words to say on the subject of compensation, which is our greatest financial problem. The arrangements for dealing with cases arising in the pre-Truce period, were, as is well known, settled by negotiations with the British Government. Damage to property in the pre-Truce period, except where covered by decrees which were defended and which are payable in full, is being dealt with by the Shaw Commission, an international body not controlled by either Government singly. The obligation of paying all the awards rests in the first instance with us but we are entitled to recover from the British Government the amounts awarded in cases where damage was done by their forces or in their interest.

Up to now the work of the Commission has necessarily been largely of a preliminary character, and in consequence no considerable volume of payments on foot of their awards has yet become due. The Commission has in fact reported seven awards, and they have recently intimated that they are about to report a further twenty-three. With improved procedure and more extended provision for investigation, it is expected that the number of awards is on the point of expanding rapidly so that the burden on the Exchequer in the months immediately ahead should grow largely. For this reason it has been found necessary to include in the paper which has been circulated a sum of £2,000,000 for payment of awards up to the 6th December next.

After that date and up to the 31st March next, as the paper indicates, a further large expansion of the provision for payment of awards is thought necessary. This will result not alone from the increasing volume of awards by the Shaw Commission but from the determination which should then have been made of a large number of awards in respect of post-Truce damage. On this question of post-Truce damage which is occasioning great anxiety to a wide circle of sufferers, I am in a position to say that a comprehensive scheme for dealing with claims is now in an advanced state of preparation and will, I hope, be announced at a very early date. The Government have accordingly thought it well to ask that the ordinary malicious injury claims due for hearing at Sessions now proceeding should be adjourned, it being anticipated that provision for dealing with these claims on the new basis will shortly be available.

In view of the serious liability arising in respect of compensation claims, generally, it will be necessary to take every practicable step to secure the maximum economy in the administration of the Public Services, and therefore, when the Dáil is now being asked to give its approval to a vote on account of some nineteen millions, it is the intention of the Ministry to endeavour in so far as they can to reduce the requirements of Public Departments below this amount wherever it is found feasible. It will be understood that on this account many proposals for public expenditure, which at another time might deserve favourable consideration, will now need to be rejected or deferred on grounds of financial stringency.

Mr. EAMON DUGGAN

I beg formally to second the motion.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON

A Chinn Chomhairle, I feel great difficulty in dealing, in any way, with the statement that the President—or shall I say the Minister for Finance—has just made to us. I did gather from the Order in Council that a month should elapse after the opening of Parliament before the financial statement should be discussed. I rather hoped that within one month after that opening an opportunity would be given to discuss any question arising out of the financial position of any particular Department, but we have a motion put before us to-day asking that the one month's grace should be extended for another two months—or a shorter time, if the Constitution Bill passes. I do not expect it means any shorter time at all. because when the Constitution shall have passed through this Dáil and the British House, and the new State shall have been formally set up, the time would have elapsed to carry us beyond the 6th of December. I rather gather it is not the intention to encourage any discussion upon the various items of this paper. I think the Minister for Finance is not to be congratulated upon his audience. The financial watch-dogs who are supposed to be very keen on economies are not present. Quite apart from the members of the Ministry, the number of his own supporters who heard his statement was very small indeed. I think the public will want to know why the Minister should be allowed to deal with so important a statement with so little attention from the elected members. Probably they will all read this to-morrow morning, and I have no doubt will be very anxious to say things, but I rather guess from the attitude of the Minister that he intends this to pass through to-night. Then their day will be done, and their opportunity will be lost. There are two or three questions that I would like to raise, if it is possible, on this motion. They refer to the various items that are on this estimate. I note that "No. 22, Ministry of Agriculture— £320,000" is estimated as the requirements for eight months. For the succeeding four months only £87,000 was suggested. The members for the agricultural constituencies are not very much concerned with the fact that the Ministry of Agriculture is only going to be allowed to spend £87,000 in the succeeding four months, as against £320,000 in the first eight months. I hope the farmers who support the farmers' candidates will note the fact that their members have so little interest in this particular item. Item No. 30 has an interest for me. It is £159,000 for the Ireland Development Grant. I would like some information upon that, because I know that the sum required for the eight months is the total sum for the year, and I was hopeful that we might have from the Ministry a proposal to set aside as a development grant a considerable sum of money to be immediately available whether prior to peace or immediately on the announcement of peace—if we are able to look forward to that happy day. But whether peace comes or not, immediately, I was hopeful that we might have suggestions from the Ministry that a considerable sum of money should be allocated as a development grant to a body of Commissioners to act in a similar capacity to the Development Commissioners who have hitherto been acting. It seems to me, if you have in existence a Development Commission, to whom you could allot a sum of money and who would be responsible for the useful expenditure of that money on development services, of a valuable character, you might do a great deal to meet much of the unemployment problem, in a constructive fashion, and to meet difficulties that have been raised. Suggestions have been put forward that the Government should grant this or the Government should grant that. I think this a reasonable proposition that ought to have the attention of the Government, that they should set up a body in the nature of a Development Commission—or a Reconstruction Commission, if you like, to whom a sum might be granted for allotment for development and reconstruction purposes, to meet present needs and needs of the immediate future. I believe that such will be required during the winter, and it would be better to deal with the problem of distress on lines of development rather than on lines of relief, and I was hopeful that there would be a sum included in the estimates which would provide for such works of development and reconstruction, and I am sorry to see that the mind of the Ministry has not gone in that direction and has not included a larger sum beyond this £159,000, which may be presumed to have been spent already. The sum of £4,000,000, indicated for the Estimate raises a question which I have hinted at on one or two occasions—that the Dáil should be given more information about the establishment of the army. We have no knowledge of how many men this provides for; we have no knowledge of the services or the organisation of the services, and I think it is essential that the Dáil should be put in possession of the facts in regard to this organisation of Defence forces. I am not cavilling at the amount. It may be the very smallest on which the work could be done. But I submit that the Dáil ought to be placed in possession of very much more information than it has had in regard to the army which we are asked to pay £4,000,000 for for the eight months. Criminal Investigation is another item that calls for attention, because I note that the sum estimated as required for the eight months is £10,000, and the sum for the whole year is to be £20,000, so that we are expecting to expend the same amount in the succeeding four months as we will have expended in the eight months ending the 6th of December. That also, I think, should call for some explanation.

What item?

Mr. JOHNSON

Criminal Investigation Department (No. 50). This is an addition, of course, to the Civic Guard. I noted with interest the remarks of the Minister in speaking of arrears of Income Tax, and while I feel strongly tempted to enlarge upon that, I prefer, as it has a personal application—not that the Minister intended it should have a personal application—but rather than give a cue to many other people, I prefer to make my own case as a private matter to the people concerned.

LIAM de ROISTE

If there be no big difficulty in the way may I ask the President—the Minister for Finance—for another day for the discussion of this very important matter? All of us who only got this Statement of Accounts as we came in this afternoon have not had time since to go through it, and consequently cannot enter into criticism of it in a proper manner. If there is no technical difficulty I ask that the matter may be discussed on another day.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

In that connection I would like to ask the President if he does not think that the right method of handling this question of finance would be to do what is done in every other Assembly in matters of this kind, because, after all, the main business of an Assembly like this is to be a check upon expenditure and to control the purse. Unless that be done all other power for legislation becomes nugatory in the end, and there can be no effective check until proposals for supply, or estimates in advance of Votes on Account, are not merely presented in bulk like this is submitted, although it may be under various heads, but submitted in some form for examination. It is not presumed that there is anything faulty or culpable in that, but merely that the Dáil should have some method of assuring itself that monies asked for are really required in order that in voting them, we are not merely voting monies, but that, in voting monies and in voting supply, we should have some effective control and check upon the policy embodied in them. Deputy Johnson already referred to one matter, and that is Criminal Investigation. It is an unhappy thing that Criminal Investigation should be required in this country. I hope the millennium will come, when it shall not be required, but it is an alarming fact that it should be required quite to the extent that is stated. It is not merely £19,000, but there is a further item, No. 57, which to me is a very mysterious item; it is called Secret Service, for which there is a sum of £220,000 I do not know what that Secret Service is, but I think it is very desirable this Estimate should come before the Dáil and the course I have risen to propose to the Ministry in this matter is that the procedure usually adopted in Assemblies of this kind should be adopted here, and that procedure is that, a report having been made and the demand made that such and such monies are required, the account is referred to a Special Committee of Supply that will go through the various items, and if necessary ask for the production of the details of these various sums of which they are comprised and then report back to the Dáil exactly what it feels in regard to each of these items under these 58 or 59 heads. That is the procedure usually adopted. I think it is quite unusual that an amount which represents a very large sum of money, some of which is already expended and beyond our reach or knowledge, but still a very large sum of money —something like thirty-eight millions, which is quite a considerable sum— should be asked for in this way.

It is a pity you were out when I made my statement.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

Something like nineteen millions has been spent, and I suggest the Committee should be appointed for the purpose of examining these accounts and reporting back to the Dáil.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

I do not agree with the last Deputy who spoke that the best thing to do would be to appoint a Committee to go into these various items. I do think it is rather a large order to ask the Dáil, on such very short notice, to vote this large sum of money without having any details whatever before us as to the manner in which it is to be spent or has been spent. If I am correctly informed, I understand it is the practice to pass votes separately for each of these Departments, and that on the vote for a particular Department it would be open to any member of the Dáil to discuss generally the policy and the details of administration of that particular Department concerned. Now, there are a large number of these Departments for which money is asked in the vote, and we would like very much to discuss in this Dáil the details of the administration, and the policy generally, of particular Departments. It would be quite impossible to attempt anything like that on a proposal of this kind. As I understand from the President, this is rather an urgent matter owing to the particular difficulty in which they find themselves due to the transition, and that this must be voted, I take it, before the 8th. I would suggest that only one month's provision should be made instead of two; that would ensure that all those amounts would come up before us again within a month, and when they would come up again the Dáil would have some opportunity of going into greater detail and discussing those votes one by one. I would suggest that the Government should take that course.

Mr. P. HUGHES

I take it this is simply a matter of voting on account for a certain sum of money in order to carry on. I think the Dáil will get an opportunity when the full vote is asked for, to discuss all these items. It is the general practice that votes on account are generally passed when they are asked for, but that does not take away from the right of members to discuss the question of whether the sum of money asked for, should or should not be adopted.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

We want an assurance to that effect.

I think the point has been missed somewhat. In the ordinary way a Budget would be brought up somewhere about the beginning of the financial year, and that Budget would give you an estimate of the amount which would be expended and would give you an opportunity of imposing such taxation as would give you the money necessary to carry on the public services for the period. Now, the Dáil will recognise I think that would not have been possible this year, and the position of the Provisional Government, as I have explained it, was that it was a sort of administrative body simply carrying out supervision of the various services pending the passing of the Constitution, and the setting up of the Saorstát. In that capacity they were not in a position to levy taxation, and could not consequently have functioned in the way a Government would function in the ordinary circumstances. Now, the regulations that were made, and that we agreed to, were that the position would be, as I explained in my statement, that any Minister requiring money for his Department, and getting put up to him by the responsible head of that Department the sum required, would sign for that amount and the Minister for Finance countersigned it. That was the arrangement which was to last for one month after the meeting of the Dáil, and a month not having sufficed for bringing in the Saorstát, it is now necessary to extend this, and in order that it would not be necessary to come before the Dáil again we put down either the date on which the Saorstát will be established or the 6th of December, the 6th December being certainly the latest date upon which that can be done. The Vote that is asked for is a Vote on Account. That sum may not be spent—the full sum may not be required—but it is estimated that sum will cover the amount that will be required, and at a later stage the various items making up the total sum of £18,900,000 would be considered, and the discussion would take place on them. At the beginning of the financial period I understand it is the recognised practice—I have not much experience, and I think very few of the Deputies here have—to take a block Vote on Account. That is our information. This does not prejudice the discussion at a later stage, when you have those items before you in detail. It will be recognised, I think, there was at least some little allowance to be made for constructing this new machinery, setting it up, and all the rest of it. It may not, perhaps, have worked out according to plan, but some of us worked pretty late, or rather pretty early, and it was the best we could do in the circumstances. It is put to the Dáil in good faith, in the belief that we are doing the best that can be done in the circumstances, and consequently we put down this resolution to ease a situation that was scarcely foreseen when the regulations mentioned were made and agreed to. The resolution that is on the paper here is necessary, for on Sunday next, and after Sunday next, we would not be in a position to pay a single sixpence, because we would not have authority for it. Of course, there are no salaries due on Sunday, but on Monday morning, if we wanted a ton of coal to heat this institution, we would not have it because we could not buy it for you. I can deal with some of the criticism, but I do not think it is advisable, having regard to the fact that they will come up again at a later stage.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON

Are we to understand none of these items may be exceeded, although some of them may be reduced?

That is right; they may not be exceeded. Well, that was the bargain and the understanding that we had—that we would simply administer these Departments as we found them until the ordinary machinery of government was set up, and until a Parliament would sanction, or initiate, and make provision for whatever sums they intended to spend.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON

How will that meet the case of the Secret Service, the Army, the reconstruction of Cork, and the Civic Guard? Those were not provided for by any other Administration, were they?

There was a Police Vote formerly; that would be replaced by the Civic Guard. There was an understanding about the Cork situation that we would pay in the first instance, and get recouped for whatever liabilities the British Government had, as I understand.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON

What about the Tailteann Games?

I am afraid there was a little exception in that case; it was a very slight one.

AN LEAS CHEANN COMHAIRLE

May I take it the Vote is agreed to? The Dáil agreed.

AN LEAS CHEANN COMHAIRLE

There is a motion on the Agenda from Deputy Figgis.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I think it is too late to take that to-night. It is a matter of considerable importance, and I think it ought to receive very full justice.

AN LEAS CHEANN COMHAIRLE

I understand the Minister in charge of the Constitution is not going on with it this evening.

No, we are not.

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