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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Oct 1922

Vol. 1 No. 22

THE DÁIL IN COMMITTEE. - ARTICLE 51.

Mr. KEVIN O'HIGGINS

In view of the Article that has been passed, I do not propose to move the first paragraph of Article 51, but I will move the second paragraph. It is:—

"The President of the Executive Council shall be appointed on the nomination of the Chamber/Dáil. He shall nominate a Vice-President of the Council who shall act for all purposes in the place of the President, if the President shall die, resign, or be permanently incapacitated, until a new President of the Council shall have been elected. The Vice-President shall also act in the place of the President during his temporary absence." Now, I formally move that Article.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

May I have your leave to move that for Article 51 there be substituted the following, of which I have given notice:—"The President/Uachtaran of the Executive Council shall be the chief of the Executive Council, and shall be appointed on the nomination of the Chamber/Dáil. He shall, on his nomination nominate the other Ministers/Airi with the assent of the Chamber/Dáil in each case."

Mr. FITZGIBBON

On a point of order. Is not this one of the amendments to Clauses in the Report which has been rejected by this Dáil, and not to the Bill which is before the Dáil? They are headed Amendments to the Bill.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

They are. But Deputy Figgis has already two Amendments in the Orders of the Day (B. and C.), and this form is better than the form in which the same Amendments appear on the Orders of the Day.

Mr. T. JOHNSON

Deputy Figgis' Amendment does not apply unless this Amendment is carried. If the Amendment is carried he could propose it as a substantive motion. If the Amendment which Deputy FitzGibbon moves is carried, then this might be put forward as an Amendment.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

It is a simpler form than in the Orders of the Day.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Is Deputy FitzGibbon moving any Amendment to the Clause moved by the Minister—it seems to be the same?

Mr. FITZGIBBON

No, I am not.

I take it that this amendment of Deputy Figgis' is a clear indication of what I said would happen if the Report of the Committee was rejected. One Deputy said he was not going to take from the people of Ireland the opportunity they got and hand over to the President and Ministry power which should not be theirs. That is precisely what Deputy Figgis wants to do here now. He wants the President to nominate each and every one of the Ministers, which goes directly against the text of the speech made by Deputy Rooney. I do not know what other meaning could be deduced from that. It was obvious to me, when I heard the speech of Deputy Rooney, that he was making a mistake. The very thing that Deputy Rooney voted against is what Deputy Figgis now wants to establish and perpetuate. I do not agree with that at all. I was against it from the beginning. I object to having such power as that given to any man. It damned this country during the last six months, because power, authority and responsibility was given into the hands of one man, who did not deserve it, a man who was propped up by a Party and his own Ministers, and who, having got to a position, kicked the platform from under him and the men who supported him, and divided the country and brought all this terrible trouble upon the country. Here is the position you are in by this amendment. One man is to be always leading the country, as if there was to be given to one man that power. No one man is capable of doing that. This country should be run, and this country should be worked by a team. We hope to get into the minds of the Dáil, and of the people, that that was the intention, but it was side-tracked and divorced actually from the motives we had in view, and so putrid is the whole thing now, that it is supported by the Morning Post (an extract from which has been put into my hands), in opposition to the proposals brought in by the Ministry.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

It is an excellent thing to think that the Morning Post should, at least on one occasion in its life, be right. But what I suggested in this Amendment is practically the exact wording of Article 52, as suggested by the Committee, except that I put it that “Ministers shall be appointed” instead of “other Ministers shall be appointed.”

Mr. JOHNSON

Deputy Figgis wants to persuade the Dáil that there is no difference in the world between his amendment and that of the Committee. He hopes to frustrate the proposal that Ministers are to be appointed by the President, and to ensure that only certain Ministers shall be appointed or nominated by the President. There is, however, a great deal of difference between the two. There is the difference that there is between a cup of tea and a breakfast.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I would like to suggest that Deputy Johnson is not exactly right. I know he intends to be perfectly fair, but my point is this, if the President comes into power, he comes into power by virtue of holding the majority of the Dáil, and if he does hold the majority of the Dáil, on general lines of policy, he would have the majority of the Committee. I would rather that, than that the appointment should be by the Committee. I am not referring to this particular Dáil, or to this particular President. I am referring to any President, if only one out of a possible six Presidents.

Question: "That the amendment be made," put and negatived.

Will you allow me now to move an amendment, which is, that:—

"The President of the Council shall be appointed on the nomination of the Chamber/Dáil. He shall nominate a Vice-President of the Council, who shall act for all purposes in the place of the President if the President shall die, resign, or be permanently incapacitated, until a new President of the Council shall have been elected. The Vice-President shall also act in the place of the President during his temporary absence."

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Article 51 is deleted.

Question: "That the proposed amendment be made," put and agreed to.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Amendment is carried, and will now be put as a substantive motion as Article 51 of the Bill.

Professor THRIFT

Might I suggest to the President to consider if he would add to what has become a substantive motion the words of Article 52 drawn up by the Committee. They refer to the same thing as Article 51, and I think the remaining words of Article 52 would just cover the point.

Professor MAGENNIS

May I draw your attention, A Chinn Chomhairle, to the fact that a deliberate attempt is now being made to nullify the vote taken at an earlier stage this afternoon. What was rejected was not only the report, but the proposal to submit the report of the Committee to the Dáil. Now, by a very ingenious device, this report of the Committee is being adopted as a substitute for the rejected articles. I wonder if those who voted against the report could be notified of what is going on.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

It was distinctly agreed that the Articles in the Appendix to the Report could be moved as an amendment to the other Articles.

And there are points in them that Deputy Magennis agrees with?

Professor MAGENNIS

Yes.

And there are points in them that you want to amend?

Professor MAGENNIS

The only point is that we are doing under cover of a subtle device the very thing the Dáil decided against doing earlier. If the Dáil decides to stultify itself, it is its own affair. I am only drawing attention to the unpleasant fact.

The dose may have been too much for the Dáil. It is taking it now in smaller quantities—in tabloid form——

Mr. W M. O'BRIEN

And enjoying it.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Dáil distinctly agreed on this procedure without a dissenting voice, except that of Deputy Milroy, who objected to its going into Committee.

LIAM de ROISTE

In support of the general principle, I entirely agree with the statement of the President. But if he accepts Article 52, the Article suggested by Deputy Thrift, as one who supported the original thing I will have to vote against that. The thing that has been moved by the President himself is that he shall have power to nominate the Vice-President, presumably without asking the approval of the Dáil for the person he nominates. Most certainly, I think, there will be a majority of the Members of the Dáil against giving any President of this Chamber power to nominate those who are to be appointed, according to the first portion of Article 51, by the representative of the Crown, without submitting their names to the Dáil. They are two distinct things, and I would ask him to adhere to his proposition, simply to nominate the Vice-President.

I do not quite understand the point that is being made by Deputy de Roiste. I take it, the main objection to taking the whole of this Clause out was that you took from the President the power to nominate the Ministers. Deputy de Roiste raises another point. He objects to that. I have not heard that objection before. I understood the objection was that the Committee elected by the Dáil itself was to nominate extern Ministers. But this is the first time I have heard there was any objection to the President nominating the members of the Executive Council. I think it would be a mistake to interfere with that right of the President, because, after all, he will have to submit the number of Ministers who are to act with him in a responsible capacity. He is in a position almost to guarantee that they will be a team which will put up certain definite propositions to the Chamber, and will stand or fall by the result. The general Executive Authority of the country will be centred in 5, 6, or 7, according as you decide the number of the Executive Council. This is the first time I have heard any objection to the President nominating any members of the Executive Council. I do not see any point in it, and I would have no objection to accepting an amendment there to Article 52:—

"The other Ministers who are members of the Executive Council shall be appointed on the nomination of the President, and he and the Ministers nominated by him shall retire from office should he cease to retain the support of a majority in the Chamber/ Dáil, but the President and such Ministers shall continue to carry on their duties until their successors shall have been appointed. Provided, however, that the Parliament/Oireachtas shall not be dissolved on the advice of an Executive Council which has ceased to retain the support of a majority in the Chamber/Dáil."

If the point be that there is an objection to the President nominating them without submitting their names to the chamber, I agree that some explanatory clause should be put in which would make it mandatory on the President to nominate Ministers to the Dáil and get them approved by the Dáil, because I would not agree that the President should of his own accord select the members, without their being sanctioned by the Dáil. If that be the only point it can be made later or you can put in a couple of words on the nomination of the President of the Dáil.

LIAM de ROISTE

I am very much surprised at the first portion of the President's remarks, because a few moments ago, in speaking of ex-President De Valera, he uttered exactly the idea which is in my mind on this matter. According to the first portion of Article 51 the President of the Dáil has power to nominate certain Ministers who shall be appointed by the Representative of the Crown. What I desire is that in future, when he has persons to nominate, that he submits their names to the Dáil for approval, before they are appointed by the Representative of the Crown.

Professor MAGENNIS

I wish to move as an amendment to the President's amendment that, "The other Ministers who are to hold office as members of the Executive Council shall be members of An Dáil and shall be appointed on the nomination of the President with the approval of An Dáil," and then the rest as it stands.

Mr. E. BLYTHE

There is just a verbal difficulty there, because earlier in paragraph 50 (a), which has been accepted, it says they shall be appointed by the Representative of the Crown, so it is just a choice of choosing another verb.

I agree, Deputy Professor Magennis, with that suggestion of yours.

Mr. GOREY

The other point raised by Deputy Magennis is provided in Article 50 (b). I do not see why you want to repeat it again.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

"These members of the Executive Council shall be all members of the Chamber." Why repeat that?

Professor MAGENNIS

Where is that?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is an amendment moved by yourself.

LIAM de ROISTE

What the President said if he reduces it to writing will be quite satisfactory to everyone, namely, that the President shall have power to nominate those particular Ministers, whatever may happen with regard to other Ministers, and that he shall submit their names for approval by the Dáil, before submitting them to the Representative of the Crown for appointment.

Mr. GOREY

The other members who are members of the Executive Council shall be appointed on the nomination of the President and with the assent of the Dáil.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I was just going to say that we might give credit to Deputy Figgis by using the words of his amendment to add the following:—"with the assent of the Dáil in each case." That would meet the point raised by Deputies.

I accept that.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The further amendment is agreed to in the form approved.

The CLERK

read the amendment to add to Article 51 the following:—

"The other members who are members of the Executive Council shall be appointed on the nomination of the President with the assent of the Dáil and he and the Ministers nominated by him shall retire from office should he cease to retain the support of a majority in the Chamber/Dáil, but the President and such Ministers shall continue to carry on their duties until their successors shall have been appointed; Provided, however, that the Parliament/Oireachtas shall not be dissolved on the advice of an Executive Council which has ceased to retain the support of a majority in the Chamber/Dáil."

Professor MAGENNIS

It is not to add. It runs: "Either who are to be members" or "who hold office as members." I prefer "Ministers who hold office as members."

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Does the President accept that?

Yes.

The Amendment was agreed to.

Mr. MILROY

I would like to ask, on a point of information, upon whose advice would Parliament be dissolved in the event of a Ministry failing to secure a majority? Who else is there to advise a dissolution?

The new Ministry.

The CLERK

read the Article as amended:—

"The President of the Council shall be appointed on the nomination of the Chamber/Dáil. He shall nominate a Vice-President of the Council, who shall act for all purposes in the place of the President if the President shall die, resign, or be permanently incapacitated, until a new President of the Council shall have been elected. The Vice-President shall also act in the place of the President during his temporary absence. The other Ministers who are to hold office shall be appointed on the nomination of the President, with the assent of the Dáil, and he and the Ministers nominated by him shall retire from office should he cease to retain the support of a majority in the Chamber/Dáil, but the President and such Ministers shall continue to carry on their duties until their successors shall have been appointed. Provided, however, that the Parliament/Oireachtas shall not be dissolved on the advice of an Executive Council which has ceased to retain the support of a majority in the Chamber/ Dáil."

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The question is does the Article stand part of the Bill?

Motion made and question put: "That Article 51 stand part of the Bill."

Carried.

Mr. GERALD FITZGIBBON

Having dealt with the Constitution and the selection of the Executive Council, it seems to me that it would be a proper thing to interpose here a Clause defining their duties, and therefore I would move that the Executive Council are to be collectively responsible for all matters concerning the Departments of State administered by its members.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That can be moved as an amendment when the Minister moves the next Article.

Mr. FITZGIBBON

I am moving to interpose it before the next Clause.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

We had better get the Article moved formally.

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