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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Oct 1922

Vol. 1 No. 22

THE DÁIL IN COMMITTEE. - ARTICLE 50B.

Mr. K. O'HIGGINS

After wasting 2¾ hours in a most preposterous debate, I wish to move Article 50B, which reads: —"Four Ministers shall be Members of the Chamber/Dáil Eireann, and a number not exceeding eight, chosen from all citizens eligible for election to the Chamber/Dáil Eireann, who shall not be Members of Parliament/Oireachtas during their term of office, and who, if at the time of their appointment they are Members of Parliament/Oireachtas, shall, by virtue of such appointment, vacate their seats: Provided that the Chamber/Dáil Eireann may from time to time, on the motion of the President of the Executive Council, determine that a particular Minister or Ministers, not exceeding three, may be Members of Parliament/ Oireachtas in addition to the four Members of the Chamber/Dáil Eireann above mentioned." We take it that amendments will be moved to that particular Article, and it would be our intention to accept such amendments. The Article as it stands provides that, in addition to the Executive Council of four, there shall be a number of Ministers, not exceeding eight, selected from all citizens eligible for election to the Dáil, and that these shall not be, during their term of office, Members of the Parliament. Then there is a proviso that the Dáil, on a motion of the President of the Executive Council, may determine that a particular Minister or Ministers, not exceeding three, may be Members of the Parliament. That would leave that, in addition to the Council of four, there may be three others, Members of Parliament—that is seven. The remaining Ministers would not be Members of Parliament during their term of office. I move that Article.

Mr. GERALD FITZGIBBON

This Article was so vigorously opposed on the last occasion that it does not require any preface from me. It provides that there is to be an Executive Council of twelve, four of whom will be members of Parliament and eight of whom need not be. I beg respectfully to move as an amendment that "The Executive Council shall all be members of the Chamber/ Dáil, and shall include the President of the Council, the Vice-President of the Council, and the Minister in charge of the Department of Finance."

Professor WM. MAGENNIS

I propose to amend this to read that the Ministers who form the Executive Council shall all be members of the Chamber. The attempt is to discriminate between two types of Ministers. That is the leading idea throughout. Certain Ministers form the Executive Council, and they shall all be members of the Dáil.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Deputy Magennis has made a suggestion in the form of an amendment; what we want to know now is whether Deputy FitzGibbon will accept that or not?

Mr. GERALD FITZGIBBON

In what form?

Professor MAGENNIS

Instead of the "Executive Council shall all be members" read "The Ministers who form the Executive Council shall all be members."

Mr. GERALD FITZGIBBON

I am quite willing to accept that.

Mr. T. JOHNSON

There is a question arising in my mind as to whether Deputy Magennis is arguing that all the Ministers shall form the Executive Council by that form of words, because we have in the new clause this sentence, "That the Executive Council shall be responsible," without any reference as to who shall be responsible, and we quite agree that there is no need to run the risk of misrepresentation at a later stage, where it might be said that the Ministers forming the Executive Council are intended.

Professor MAGENNIS

To meet the acute observation of Deputy Johnson, I would suggest that these words be used "those Ministers who form the Executive Council."

Mr. JOHNSON

That is a small grammatical point.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Is the amendment now accepted by the mover of the original amendment?

Mr. FITZGIBBON

I accept it.

Mr. SEAN MILROY

I much prefer the original form of this motion because there is in the suggested amendment this implication that there will be other Ministers. That implication is now suggested. That is a matter that I am out against all the time. This amendment if it had been opposed originally might save us a lot of discussion because there is no objectionable feature to it at all. I would be in favour of the amendment if what has been proposed now had been proposed in the original amendment.

LIAM de ROISTE

If this amendment of Deputy Fitzgibbon's is carried are we to take it that the Executive Council, if it is formed from the Ministers, or the Dáil, or outside, that they are to have collective responsibility? Because some Deputies here are, I think, interested in the individual responsibility rather than in the other question. As I understand the amendment in the Article, it is that there is to be collective responsibility on the part of the Executive Council, and if that amendment is carried it would simply mean that the Executive Council would be the Government, and we would be back to the state of collective responsibility. And it does not matter then in the least whether you would appoint the other Ministers from the Dáil or outside.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Has Deputy FitzGibbon accepted the words suggested by Deputy Magennis?

Mr. FITZGIBBON

I have.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Therefore the amendment now reads:—"Those Ministers who form the Executive Council shall all be members of the Chamber/Dáil and shall include the President of the Council, the Vice-President of the Council and the Minister in charge of the Department of Finance."

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I suggest without prejudicing the future, that the word "those" might be eliminated, because whatever is put into a subsequent Article will be drawn against by leaving the words "Ministers who form the Executive Council."

Mr. JOHNSON

I think it better leave it as it stands.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

We will put that amendment before the Dáil.

Mr. KEVIN O'HIGGINS

I accept that amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That becomes Article 50b.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

It has not been accepted yet.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The amendment has been agreed to, but it has not been put as a substantive motion yet.

The amendment was then put as a substantive motion and agreed to as Article 50b.

Motion made and question put: "That Article 50B stand part of the Bill."

Agreed.

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