Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 20 Oct 1922

Vol. 1 No. 25

THE COST OF LIVING.

[Motion by the Minister for Industry and Commerce.]

Mr. J. McGRATH

The motion is:—

DE BHRÍ go bhfuiltear ag gearán go bhfuil fiacha na n-earraí a luaidhtear sa Tuairisc Oifigiúil ar Chostas Beatha agus fiacha beorach, portair, leanna dhuibh, biotáille agus deochanna eile go miréasunta in áiteanna agus i gceantair áirithe.	WHEREAS it is complained that in certain places and districts the prices of the commodities specified in the Official Report on the Cost of Living, and of beer, porter, stout, spirits and other beverages, are unreasonable.
AGUS DE BHRÍ gur maith an ní na gearánta san do scrúdú.	AND WHEREAS it is desirable that such complaints should be investigated:
ANOIS ar an abhar san molann agus beartuíonn an Dáil seo go gceapfaidh an t-Aire um Shaothar agus Thráchtáil Coimisiún a aithneofar mar an Coimisiún ar Fhiacha agus go bhféadfa sé Coiste den Choimisiún ar Fhiacha roimh-ráite do cheapa in aon áit no cheantar chun fiosrú do dhéanamh agus tuairisc do thabhairt ar fhiacha costaisí no sochar na n-earraí roimh-ráite i ngach staid dá ndéanamh dá scaipe no dá ndíol no in aon staid díobh agus, in aon chás 'na bhfuil fiacha costaisí no sochar mí-réa- súnta i dtuairim an Choimisiúin no i dtuairim aon Choiste dhe pé molta is oiriúnach leis an gCoimisiún no leis an gCoiste do dhéanamh.	NOW therefore this Dáil doth approve and determine that the Minister for Industry and Commerce shall appoint a Commission to be known as the Commission on Prices and may appoint in any place or district a Committee of the said Commission on Prices to inquire into and report on prices costs or profits at all or any of the stages in the production distribution or sale of the commodities aforesaid and in any case in which prices costs or profits are in the opinion of the Commission or of any Committee thereof unreasonable to make such recommendations as the Commission or Committee may think fit.
AGUS orduíonn an Dáil seo d'aon duine ag a bhfuil eolas ar abhar aon fhiosruithe dá shórt go ndéanfa sé, má iarann Coimisiún ar Fhiacha no Coiste dhe air é, pé eolas i dtaobh an abhair sin is dóich leis an gCoimisiún no leis an gCoiste baint do bheith aige leis an abhar do thabhairt don Choimisiún no don Choiste.	AND this Dáil doth order that any person having knowledge of the subject matter of any such inquiry shall if so required by a Commission on Prices or by a Committee thereof furnish to the Com- mission or Committee such particulars relating thereto as the Commission or Committee thinks revelant.
IS don Choimisiún a tabharfar tuairisc aon Choiste den Choimisiún ar Fhiacha agus is don Aire um Shaothar agus Thráchtáil a tabharfar aon tuairisc no tuariscí den Choimisiún do réir mar bheidh agus cuirfe sé sin os cóir na Dála so iad chó luath agus is féidir leis san do dhéanamh.	THE report of any Committee of the Commission on Prices shall be made to the Commission and the report or reports as the case may be of the Commission shall be made to the Minister for Industry and Commerce who shall as soon as may be lay the same before this Dáil.

It will be remembered that last week not this resolution, but another similar one, was discussed fairly and fully, and there was no decision arrived at. It may be just as well to state that since then the particular parties concerned, I think, have been satisfied with the actual wording of this resolution. It is framed in such a way that if the Dáil decides, it can get to work immediately. It is not defined how the Committee should be constituted, but, of course, if any Member has a suggestion as to how it should be constituted I would be glad to meet him and to discuss the situation with him. There is no doubt about it that there is a very exaggerated view abroad of the profiteering that is going on. It is, to my mind, going on to a very large extent, but not exactly as was pointed out in the Dáil by some of the Deputies. This, at any rate, will give us the opportunity of finding out exactly what profiteering is going on and where it is going on. This will be confined to the commodities as specified in the Official Report of the Cost of Living. It may be argued, of course, that it should go outside particular commodities, but I think it is just as well, at least for the present, that we should confine it to such commodities as really make up the everyday foodstuffs that are used by the ordinary population.

Mr. ERNEST BLYTHE

I beg to second the motion.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON

I am prepared to support the proposal of the Minister for Industry and Commerce although undoubtedly the form does preclude all enquiry into the basis of a standard of living, that is to say, an enquiry into what should constitute a standard for reasonable existence in a civilised community. I recognise, however, that such an enquiry should follow a different course from the particular enquiry that is referred to, and would have to be undertaken by a different Commission. I hope such a Commission will be set up. There will have to be a Commission or Committee of experts, assisted by men who have some understanding of what civilisation means. But, in the meantime, I think that this particular Committee that is suggested will help to probe the present evil that is complained of, of high prices; to find out where the difference arises between wholesale prices and retail prices, the manufacturers' prices and the retail prices, the growers' prices and the prices to the consumer. I hope it will be possible to do this locally as well as nationally, and that the local Committees that are suggested will be small, compact and active, with a chairman who is not likely to be affected by local influences. I think it might be possible to appoint the same chairman for perhaps half a dozen committees. That is a matter for consideration. I believe that it will be necessary to have a central Commission to prevent overlapping so that when we find an article which is distributed from centres, such as, say, sugar, there may not be half-a-dozen overlapping enquiries, but one single enquiry from the body having authority, and I think the essential matter in this is that the body that is going to make the enquiry will have the power to probe deep and fearlessly into the existing position. I beg to support the proposition.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I raised this question some time ago, and the Minister did me the courtesy of showing me this resolution beforehand. I think it does fully meet the purpose, although at the same time, I recognise it is more restricted than the purpose I had in my original proposition. It will be all the better for that restriction, perhaps. For the matters entered into are subjects of greater contention, subjects that need not be confused with this immediate purpose that it is the intention of the resolution to achieve. That there is something amiss, I think, must be apparent to everybody. As I said on a previous occasion, and I would like to take the opportunity of repeating it here now, it is not a question of charging anybody with profiteering. It would be very easy to affix the blame, and it would be most unjust to do so. It is rather a question of discovering where the manifest discrepancy appears, whether it is an actual question of profiteering by the middleman, or whether it is a question of high freights, or of any of these things. What exactly is the cause of the discrepancy? To start off an enquiry of this kind, which is eminently judicial in its nature, by distributing blame beforehand, would be not only unjust in itself, but it would be against the efficiency of any enquiry of this kind. That there is a very considerable discrepancy is apparent to everybody. I was rather interested in certain figures that were given here the other day by Deputy Sir James Craig. He mentioned the very humble matter of cabbages, of which he saw a large field so near as Castleknock being turned over to cattle and sheep rather than being sent in for human consumption, because the price would not pay the cost of growth and cartage. I have since got, and it is a matter of some interest, the actual figures, which have been compiled for me by a competent collector in that matter, and they are very startling. The actual price in respect of that commodity at the present moment, wholesale, is 12s. a load of 55 dozen. The actual retail price at the present moment is relatively 3d. or 4d. per head, which comes to about £10 per load. It is so everywhere, and it is quite clear that there must be some enquiry into this matter and other relative matters if we are to adjust some misfit in the economic machinery. I hope that a Commission of this kind, set up of a few persons, would achieve its purpose and would bring about a very considerable benefit for the consuming population of this country. It is a very remarkable fact that Ireland, which is the producer of the raw material, if it may so be called, of all industries, inasmuch as Ireland is the producer of foodstuffs, should, nevertheless, be the place where these selfsame foodstuffs cost more than they cost in other countries, although Ireland is, and perhaps because Ireland is, an exporting country in respect of such commodities. With regard to the resolution itself, I am in agreement, as I have said, with the general purport of it and with the general machinery which it embodies. When I first read it I did not notice a discrepancy, or an apparent discrepancy, to which I call the attention of the Minister now. In the Fourth Article it says: "And this Dáil doth order that any person having knowledge of the subject-matter of any such inquiry shall, if so required by a Commission on Prices or by a Committee thereof, furnish to the Commission or Committee such particulars relating thereto as the Commission or Committee may think fit." The procedure evidently dealt with in that paragraph is, wherever a local Committee is appointed, that it shall be either by or under the authority of the Central Commission. But if you turn to an earlier paragraph, it says that the Minister for Industry and Commerce shall appoint a Commission, to be known as the Commission on Prices, and may appoint in any place or district a Committee of the said Commission. I assume that to mean—and perhaps the Minister will confirm or correct me as the case may be —that the Committee will be nominated by the Commission and created actually by a minute of the Minister, but that neither the Minister nor any other body will appoint a local Committee without the authority of the Central Commission. I think that is a matter of some importance, if the two are not to be working independently of one another, and if there is not to be possibly even friction, but, in any case, a certain loss of efficiency between the central body and the local body. I hope, whoever is to be appointed either on the Commission or whoever the Commission may appoint as Committees of itself to make these local enquiries will be such persons as Deputy Johnson has referred to, that is to say, they will be persons who will not be concerned, rightly or wrongly, in the sale of the articles in question, and who, therefore, rightly or wrongly—and I am not pre-judging it now—would be parties who may be called upon to be judges where there may be some person who might think that they would be more rightly in the dock than on the bench. I believe that local Committees will be necessary, but I would like to feel sure— I think it is the intention of the resolution, but there is a certain doubt about it—that the local Committees will be set up by the Commission, and will report to the Commission in order that the enquiries made by the local Committees might be co-ordinated by the Central Commission, and in order that the report finally made by the Central Commission may be able to bring together all the local inquiries which itself caused to be made so that its work will be conducted not only on its own independent inquiries, but with inquiries of the Committees on a national basis, because if this inquiry is worth making here, as proposed, it should be made not in a local sense, but it should be made in a fully national sense.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

I am not going to cover to-day the ground which I covered the other evening. I am very pleased, indeed, that this Commission is going to be appointed. I expressed my doubts on the last occasion, and I still express my doubts that the Ministry will be able to do very much in the matter. However, it is some satisfaction to know that they are willing to try. Two or three things have cropped up since the matter was discussed last week. One matter that has been impressed upon me by almost everybody who has spoken to me on the subject is that unless the price of porter and stout is brought down the price of labour will not be reduced. I have been told quite seriously by seriously-minded people that if the working man can get his pint of porter at a decent price he will not object to his wages being reduced, but so long as he is compelled, or asked to pay, one shilling a pint for porter, and if he consumes three or four pints in the day, the amount of money spent at the end of the week will be so great that it will be utterly impossible for the wages to be brought down. I want to say that I think there is a tremendous lessening of moral fibre in the country. I am sorry to say it. I suppose we all have suffered from the effects of the war, and our moral fibres are generally personally lessened. May I give one small example of what I consider to be a very decided lessening of the moral sense. A lady went to a very high-class grocers' establishment where she had been dealing for a very long time. She was buying tea at 2s. 4d. per lb. She said, "I am not going to buy your tea any longer at 2s. 4d. per lb. I am told by a friend that tea at 2s. per lb. can be bought at such a place, and that it is equally as good." The manager whispered to her after a few moments, "Miss, we will give you 2s. 4d. tea at 2s. per lb." There are only two explanations of that. Either he had no business to be charging for tea 2s. 4d. per lb., or else he was giving an inferior tea. I want to ask the Minister if I may, what exactly is meant by the recommendations in the third paragraph. He says here: "In any case in which prices, costs, or profits are, in the opinion of the Commission, or of any Committee thereof, unreasonable, to make such recommendations as the Commission or Committee may think fit." Are those recommendations to be made to the consumer? For instance, I mentioned on the last occasion that milk is 8d. per quart, and that, in my opinion, the only way to reduce the price would be by way of a strike—not to take milk. Is the recommendation of the Committee to be of such a nature as to say to the people the only way they will be able to reduce the price of the commodity they are purchasing is by such a thing as a strike? Or are these recommendations to be made to the Minister, who will present this report to the Dáil? The reason I asked about the recommendations is, because I see later on in the motion, "The report of any Committee of the Commission on Prices shall be made to the Commission, and the report or reports, as the case may be, of the Commission shall be made to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who shall as soon as may be lay the same before this Dáil." I want to know if there is any difference between the reports that are to be made by these Committees or by the Commission? What is mentioned here is recommendations. I say again we will watch with very great interest the work of this Commission, and there is no doubt, if it is found that the work is useful, it may be very much extended in other directions.

Mr. D.J. GOREY

I am sorry that I have to ask for information again. I want to know if the Commission will include, in the different items that compose the cost of living, food, clothing, and housing. If it includes these three I am satisfied. Any enquiry worthy of the name should include them.

Mr. P. HUGHES

I may say I am in thorough agreement with the proposal put forward by the Minister, and I do hope when this Commission gets to work it will probe this very thorny question to the very bottom, because, while there may be certain classes of people charging exorbitant prices for the articles they sell, I am sure this Dáil does not brand every trader throughout the country as being a profiteer. I do know that there are, in several towns, and, perhaps, cities, of Ireland a great many decent, respectable traders who charge only a reasonable profit on the wares they sell, or the food they sell, and if there are such people who do trade on what may be called the innocence of the public— if there is such a thing—I will be glad to see these people punished as they deserve. But before this Commission comes to a conclusion I do not think it is fair to prejudge in this Dáil any class of people forming the inhabitants of this country. As I say, I welcome the Commission, and I am sure if it does its work it will settle, at least for the time, the thorny question as to whether the traders of this country are the people some people think they are. I heard a lot said about cabbages. One would think it was the only thing this Commission was to look after, and whether some people are vegetarians or not, I do not know. At the same time, I know myself, from my knowledge, and, perhaps, from practical experience that there are a number of people in the country —farmers and others—who sow considerable quantities of cabbage, not for sale as human food at all, but as cattle food. I think the farmer should have liberty to do anything he likes with his crop. Cabbages in certain areas and districts are a great part of the food given to cattle, both in the winter and in the summer seasons, so I think there is not very much in the argument put forward that three or four acres of cabbage have been given to cattle. It should not be taken as a basis that this man could not market his cabbage in Dublin or anywhere else. I welcome this Commission, and I hope it will put an end, for the time being, to this controversy.

Mr. J. LYONS

I rise to support this motion, because it is one of the most necessary that has yet been put before this Dáil. One remark made by Deputy Sir James Craig, I, as a Labour man, completely differ with. I did not mind, as far as I am concerned, if the cost of porter or other liquor went up to £1 a pint, neither do my supporters, because we in the Labour movement hope that the Members in this Dáil are not suffering under the foolish idea simply that if the price of porter came down, wages would come down with it. Nothing of the kind. We are quite satisfied that when the cost of living comes down, say, to the pre-war scale, wages must still remain at least 50 per cent. over the pre-war scale, as we hold that labour in Ireland was never paid. A good deal has been said about milk. Some day last week Deputy Sir James Craig made it very clear about milk, which is one of the most necessary items of food, especially for children. Another Deputy contradicted and said he could supply milk at 4d. a quart, and had done so in the city. Now I have made enquiries myself in the city during the past week and I cannot find that milk is on sale anywhere for 4d. a quart. But still in a certain part of County Galway milk can be sold at 2½d. a quart, but we cannot get it here, as the retailers who retail the milk in the towns certainly are profiteering. I sincerely hope the remark of Deputy Gorey will be fully understood and that the enquiry into the cost of living will mean clothing and housing as well. I will be also very pleased when the Government sets up the Committee if they will send us—at least to my constituency—a lot of these 5s. 2d. houses we heard about a few weeks ago. It is very very hard to sit here and listen to an honourable Deputy making statements about liquor, more or less, as if this Dáil was under the opinion, I think, by the remarks of the Deputy that the workingman lives for nothing else but drink. I completely differ with him. The workingman is interested in the education and clothing of his family, and by having this Committee working in each town I am sure this Committee will be enabling him to do so. For that simple reason I support the motion and I wish it God speed. The sooner it comes the better we like it.

Mr. GEORGE NICHOLLS

There is just one question I would like to draw attention to. It is this, and I know it is covered in the third paragraph which deals with the question of distribution. There are certain articles mentioned in the first paragraph, contingent with the cost of living, but there is no mention at all of one very essential commodity— that is, petrol; and I would mention another thing—tyres. At the present time petrol in England is sold at 2s. a gallon. Petrol in Ireland costs 2s. 4d. a gallon. Dunlop tyres in England are sold at the same price as they are sold in Ireland. Petrol comes, as far as I understand, and I have not any technical knowledge, from America, but I certainly do not see why petrol should be 4d. a gallon dearer in Ireland than it is in England. Why I lay emphasis on the matter of petrol is that I would like to bring it before the Minister and have it embodied in the specified items into which he will inquire, as at the present time—owing to the breaking down of the railways and lack of communication—food supplies have to be conveyed by motor, and I therefore think petrol is certainly a very important question and that there should be a very minute enquiry into why the cost of petrol is 4d. a gallon dearer in Ireland than it is in England.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

I hope Deputy Lyons did not take me seriously when I suggested that the working man takes any more stout or porter than his neighbours.

Mr. W.A. DAVIN

I naturally support the Minister in proposing the setting up of this Commission. I think the most essential thing in connection with this Commission is that the Minister should see to it that the work of the Commission is put in hand immediately and speeded up as quickly as possible, so that he may be able to bring his recommendations before the Dáil at the earliest possible date. While the Commission is proceeding with its work we cannot overlook the fact that a number of unemployed will be starving, and whatever goes on at the Commission, or whatever evidence is given at it, will not bring down prices. I hope, therefore, when the Minister brings his recommendations before the Dáil, that he will devise at the same time some kind of legislation for the purpose of enforcing the regulations which the Dáil will undoubtedly sanction.

Mr. FRANK McGUINNESS

I desire to support this motion. I think it is a very desirable one, and as a trader I welcome it. There has been a great deal of loose talk about profiteering. There is undoubtedly profiteering going on, and it is not confined to one particular class of the community; it is spread over nearly every class in the community that has anything to sell, or has even a wage to earn. I would draw attention to one particular item, and I hope it is included in the enquiry. Before the war this particular item was sold at one halfpenny per copy. I refer to a daily paper that has an immense circulation in this country. There is a charge of twopence being now made for it, although the war is over some two or three years. The same applies in other cases. I hope that Ministers' salaries will be investigated and that professors' salaries will be inquired into. All these things should be taken into account; the trader should not be made the exception, while those other gentlemen are let off with their immense salaries. The Commission might also pay attention to the farmer who buys a horse, and who should sell it at a reasonable profit, and not be holding out for 100 or 500 per cent. profit. I hope these things will be all inquired into, and that the distributor will not be the only person who will be victimised in this matter.

Mr. P. GAFFNEY

I beg to support the motion. I would like, when this Commission is set up, that some effort should be made to set up in different towns local Committees something on the scale of the Committees of a few years ago. These would be able to give advice to the Commission, which could then deal with the whole of Ireland. Heretofore in some places these Committees did achieve good work. In certain places there was active opposition to them, and the Committees did not succeed as well as they might have. Again, there was a great lack of public co-operation. People did not come forward and give particulars of where they had been overcharged. I acted on several Committees of this kind, and I always found it was very hard to get people to come forward and give particulars of how they were over-charged; even though they would tell it to people outside, they would not give the particulars to the Committee. Of course, unless somebody came forward with a complaint, the case could not be dealt with. Touching upon the remark about petrol, quite recently I was speaking to some people engaged in the motor trade, and they referred to the exorbitant charge in the way of tax that has been made on Ford motor cars, compared with other types of car, such as the Lancia. The difference was £9 or £10 or £15. The Ford car is a cheaper car, and is more available to the ordinary class of people than cars of other build. It has been suggested that the tax would be put on petrol instead of on the cars. This fourpence, which is the difference between the cost in Ireland and England, is due to the fact that the petrol is shipped to London, and that fourpence goes to the parties there. If the petrol were shipped to Ireland, that fourpence would come to the Irish Exchequer, or, at any rate, it would come in some way to the benefit of the Irish people. I would like that as the Commission proceeds, and deals with the cost of living, housing, clothing, etc., it would touch upon other matters not included in the list, and that as a result of the Commission, legislation will be enacted whereby fair play can be dealt all round, and that it will not be within the possibility of any section to deal unfairly with another section.

Mr. J. McGRATH

There were some questions asked in the course of the debate, to which I will now reply. Deputy Figgis dealt with local Committees. The local Committees will be appointed by me, but in consultation with the Commission. The last paragraph of this resolution provides for reports of the local committees to be made to the Commission. That will effect the necessary coordination. Deputy Sir James Craig wanted to know if the recommendations were to be made to traders. The recommendations referred to will only be made to this Dáil. Deputy Gorey asked if food, clothing and rents will be included. They will. I do not know if Deputy Nicholls was here when I was speaking, but I think I mentioned the fact that this resolution referred only to the commodities specified in the official report on the cost of living. I think we must confine it to that because it is the most essential thing at the moment. I am afraid we will have to set up another Commission to inquire into the question of petrol and tyres, and, perhaps, Ministers' salaries, later on. Deputy Davin mentioned that the very fact of inquiring into profiteering will not reduce the cost of living. That is so; but still I feel that the very fact that we move at all in the matter will bring down prices all round. There is no reason why the Commission should wait to report on the full proceedings. If, as they go along, they find glaring cases of profiteering, they will naturally report to me, and I will in turn report to the Dáil immediately, so that the Dáil can take whatever steps are considered necessary. Deputy Gaffney referred to the shyness of the people. I know for myself that the Profiteering Committees in existence before found it very hard to get people to give particulars. The people looked on the matter as if it would be informing. If they do not give the support necessary our efforts will be all for naught. In Dublin you will find in one street the same article selling at 40 and 50 per cent. more at one end of the street than at the other. To a very great extent it is all the people's fault that such a thing does happen; all the legislation in the world will not affect it, and if the people do not give the support that is necessary I am afraid there will be a great deal of labour for nothing.

Mr. GEORGE NICHOLLS

I was perfectly aware of what the Minister had said. It may be noticed that the Committee set up by the Dáil "doth approve and determine that the Minister for Industry and Commerce shall appoint a Commission, to be known as the Commission on Prices, to inquire into and report on prices, costs, or profits, at all or any of the stages in the production, distribution, or sale of the commodities aforesaid." I thought the question of petrol came into the question of distribution.

Motion agreed to.