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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 20 Oct 1922

Vol. 1 No. 25

UNEMPLOYMENT PROBLEM.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON

The motion I have to move reads as follows:—

"Whereas, the existence of large numbers of unemployed men and women in rural and urban areas is a grievous social and economic loss to the Commonwealth and constitutes a danger to the State, it is the opinion of the Dáil that Ministers should without delay lay before the Dáil any plans they have prepared for dealing with the problem in the event of either

(1) a peaceful issue of the present strife at an early date, or

(2) a continuance of armed opposition to the Government."

I consider, A Chinn Comhairle, that a duty lies with Ministers to explain to the Dáil what is in their mind, what are they proposing to do to deal with this problem of unemployment, in either of these two positions they may be placed in? It may be said we cannot do anything in the present circumstances, or we can do very little until we know what is our financial position, what is our military position, what is our political position? But I submit, it is necessary, before the winter comes upon us, that we should know what is in the mind of the Government, whether there is peace, or whether there is to be a continuance of warfare? A couple of days ago, the Minister for Education said something about the rights of the parent being superior to the rights of the State; that the parent did not exist for the State, or the citizen did not exist for the State. That the State existed for the citizen. I subscribe to that doctrine to the full. "The strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack," and while it is true that the citizen does not exist for the State— the parent does not exist for the State— the contrary is true; the State exists for the citizen. One is the complement of the other, and the citizen would not be a citizen, unless there were a community in which he could live and of which he forms a part. But I want that doctrine applied generally. I want the Ministers and Members of the Dáil, and the public, to bear in mind always that the welfare of the citizen is the end of all these political and economic activities, and that we must not think of the citizen, the workman, as something that is available for promoting the prosperity of the country, as some item that might be used for the promotion of trade and commerce; but that trade and commerce and civic rights that we have been talking about, all exist for the promotion of the well-being of the citizen. If we have that in mind, we will see the necessity of making provision for the well-being of that citizen, and that the economic arrangements shall be so directed as to ensure that the citizen shall have the opportunity to make the best use of his abilities, his strength of mind and body, his experience, to help to build up the Commonwealth. It was well to hear the Minister for Education indicate that in his view the State existed to promote the well-being of the citizen, because coming from one who has been to the forefront in promoting the idea of Nationality it shows that in his mind, at any rate, the ideas that surround this notion of the Nation are all associated with the well-being of the individual, and the counterpart of that idea in politics is the idea of collectivism in ecomics. I am not one of those who want to spread the idea of collectivism or the idea of Nationalism, to such an extent as to make collectivism appear pure State Socialism, or Nationalism or Nationality, or pure jingoism. There is a place for both, but we must always bear in mind the object ultimately is the production of good citizens, bright-eyed, happy-hearted human beings. This may seem a little bit apart from the resolution, but I want to submit it is not at all apart from the resolution, and if you subscribe to the doctrine I am trying to suggest, that you must make a deliberate and direct attempt to save this mass of the people from the contamination that results from unemployment, from the deterioration, the demoralisation that unemployment entails. Therefore, it is the direct duty of Ministers to devise plans for dealing with this problem forthwith and lay their plans before the Dáil and before the country, so that we may know there is something afoot, and that Ministers are not relegating this problem to the chances of commercial speculation, but that they are deliberately contriving to so order the communal life as to ensure that men, women, and children shall be able to live as decent citizens. I want to suggest, too, that this country knows something of the problems that surround the land question, and land-hunger, the desire to have sufficient land to ensure a livelihood and to ensure security. I believe that the ultimate impulse, that accounts for this land hunger, is the desire for security; for a feeling that, at any rate, whether a man requires my services or not, whether I am going to be employed by others or not, I am always going to be secure for food, because I have the land that I can grow sufficient food upon. That, I contend, is the urge that has led men in this country, and has led men in most countries, to desire sufficient land to maintain themselves. I think our purpose in the communal life should be to ensure also that the security the community gives should be available for the man who is not a land worker; and that if we can provide the working-class citizen with this security, with the feeling that at any rate, so long as he is willing to give his services, he will at least be guaranteed the opportunity for a decent livelihood, with the sense of security which the community ought to give to the individual, we would solve very many problems, and incidentally would remove many of the difficulties that critics of trade unionism apply to trade unionism. The real reason for these difficulties lies in the absence of security, the feeling that men must protect their opportunities for future employment. I want to impress upon Ministers that they have a duty to bring forward to the Dáil their plans—if they have plans—and to confess that they have no plans, if they have no plans, for dealing with unemployment during this coming winter. The only indication we have had up to now, that there was any thinking about the future in this respect, has been from the Minister for Defence. Evidently in his mind, or in the mind of his advisers, there has developed the idea of using military men for constructive work. Now, it is possible to develop that idea wisely, but it is very dangerous to utilise the military machine, as a military machine, within the civil organisation. I do not want to develop any criticism on that line just now. I want to utter this warning: that it will lead to disaster if the Minister for Defence is going to develop certain ideas in regard to employment of unemployed men, and the Minister for Agriculture is to develop another idea to the same purpose, and the Minister for Economic Affairs, or Industry and Commerce is to work upon a different line. It is essential that whatever is done, or whatever is thought, about these problems ought to be co-related and co-ordinated, and should be part of a general plan, and there should not only be co-operation of the various departments, but that those who are able to speak for the organised workers in the various industries should also be brought into consultation, to discuss, and, if possible, arrive at, common agreement in regard to these problems. I do not know what the latest figures are; I suppose the official figures of the number of registered unemployed men and women would be round about 50,000 in these 26 Counties. There are, perhaps, 20,000 more who are not registered. One cannot arrive at an exact figure, but there are certainly many thousands of unemployed men and women throughout the country who are not registered, and of whom there is no account. I want to suggest two or three lines upon which Ministers might set their minds working. Perhaps when they come to reply, they will show us that they have already been working on these particular lines. There are hints, of course, that afforestation is under consideration. I hope it has gone past the stage of suggestion and has come to the stage of almost practical application. There is a particular suggestion that I want to make, and emphasise, in regard to urban workers more particularly. It is that the Technical Schools—the machinery of the Technical Schools—ought to be utilised for the training and improving in the technique and the craftsmanship of a particular workman, or the training in elementary forms, perhaps in newer industries and occupations of people who are receiving unemployed benefit. I believe it would be an economic act, and a social benefit, if the unemployed pay were increased, conditional upon certain hours in the week being given to training in Technical Schools on technical work. This might be said to apply more particularly to women workers, and it would be a very good thing for the women and for the community if there was some attempt at training in many domestic activities, of the recipients of unemployed benefit. The demoralisation that goes along with unemployment pay, and no work of any kind, is a positive loss to the community. It would be a positive benefit if there was a duty attached to the receipt of these unemployment benefits. I submit it would be well for Ministers to look ahead a little bit and to consider the value that would be gained from some added technical training as a condition of receiving the increased unemployment pay. I believe, I am sure, it is desirable and necessary that the unemployment pay should be very greatly increased, and along with that increase, there should be provided an opportunity for the training of the faculties of the recipient for doing practical work of a socially productive character. We know the problem of housing, and it is no use dealing with that at this moment, but there is one aspect of public work that might be taken in hand by Ministers, and that is to urge upon local authorities and upon private employers, perhaps with the aid of the Nation's credit, such as it is, to promote regularisation of employment, to look ahead and consider what the prospects are for employment in a particular trade, and if we have exceptional slackness now and a certain demand for particular work to be done in a year's time, we ought to encourage that work to be done now instead of waiting for the year to pass. There is certain work which is normally done in the summer that could just as well be done, at perhaps a little extra cost, in the winter time. You have trades like painting where there is an immense amount of overtime work in the summer, and a general universal slackness in the winter. Very much of that work can be done in the winter time if a deliberate attempt is made to regularise that seasonal work. I think the Local Government Department and the Ministry for Industry could do a good deal in that direction in quite a number of trades. They are attempting to organise the purchases of local governing bodies. It is possible to look ahead and to say that certain Institutions will undoubtedly require so many thousand articles of a particular class next August. We are hoping that there will be an improvement in trade by next August, and we ought to be willing to bank upon that faith, and to say "these things that you require next August can be ordered now, and we will take some risk as a State; we will take some risk to support you in the ordering of these goods at this particular time, when things are slack, and so promote the regularisation of Industry and the relief of the unemployed." I have no doubt much stress will be laid upon financial difficulties, and I am going to risk making a suggestion which may be proved to be utterly fallacious and impossible. But I would like it to be proved impossible, before I believe it is impossible. I want to suggest to the Minister for Finance that a good deal could be done to promote general employment in the country if in the payment of public funds to men in the Army and in the public services, and more particularly if they are thinking, as I hope they will, of increasing unemployment pay, to make that increase, or at any rate a proportion of it, only cashable in the purchase of Irish-manufactured goods. My proposition is that the Ministry should consider the issue of some form of Treasury Note— some form of cheque or bank order—or whatever form it may take. Small sums in such orders, cheques or Treasury Notes, will only be cashable by the bank—I hope it will be a National or a State Bank, as it ought to be—on presentation by a manufacturer, on a panel, who subscribes to certain conditions with regard to the use of Irish manufactured articles, as well as the employment of labour under fair Trade Union conditions. I believe that such a process, as I am hinting at, might possibly add to the cost and might possibly limit the purchasing power to some extent. I believe it would be so small a reduction in its purchasing power, and would have such immense effect, that it would give such a fillip to the production of goods, with consequent necessary employment of Irish Labour, as to be worthy of the increased cost, and the increased cost would very soon be eliminated. I throw that out as a suggestion; I think it is worth analysing and considering. I want the Ministers to tell us what plans they have made, in view of the possibility of continued strife and warfare, and what plans they have made in view of the possibility of an early peace? It is no use relying entirely upon the prospects that, given peace, all kinds of private enterprise would be set going, and everything would be blooming and beautiful. That has not been the experience of other countries after peace. We have got to look ahead, and to look ahead in view of various possibilities. I want to submit that this problem of unemployment will have to be dealt with in a dozen different ways, and if the Government is prepared to deal with it, and deal with it boldly, that it will have considerable effect in bringing about that peace which we all desire. I beg to propose the motion.

Mr. HUGH COLOHAN

I beg to second the motion, and I would like to impress upon the Ministry the grave necessity for taking immediate action in this particular case of giving employment. Now we, in the country, know that there are some County Boards of Health whose funds are being rapidly exhausted through giving relief to families of working men during last summer. How are we going to face the winter if the Government does not come forward with some scheme whereby the men will be employed? It is all very fine to say that the Government has no funds to meet this matter, but I say the Government should pluck up courage and get the money to give employment. Our people should not be allowed to starve, and it is the first duty of a Government to see that its people do not starve. I have known cases in my own county of men who were falling against the walls of their cottages with the hunger, and yet they were too proud to come and ask for help. It is our duty to help them, and the Government, if they realise their responsibility, ought to promote schemes and get to work at once.

Mr. THOMAS NAGLE

I beg to support this motion, and, in doing so, would like to call the attention of the Dáil to the fact that the motion only asks the Ministers to lay before the Dáil any plans they may have prepared for dealing with the problem of unemployment. We have heard from Ministers recently statements to the effect that they have not any money to spare, and they lay down certain reasons for that. We are willing to believe that, but though they may not have one penny piece to spend now, or for the next five months, that is no reason why they should not let us and the country know what they intend to do when they are in a position to spend money. There was some talk during the last few weeks, of unemployment and irregularism, and Deputy Figgis suggested that the irregularism was largely caused by unemployment. I quite agree with Deputy Figgis on that particular remark, and I know myself that there are lots of men in the ranks of the Irregulars in parts of Southern Ireland who have had no opportunity of working, for the past eighteen months or two years, and have no chance now of getting a job if they come back to civil life. The very fact, that they knew—by the Government laying their plans on the table—that they would have in a short time an opportunity to work and earn their living in the ordinary way, would tend to make them give up the business they are at, at the present, and come back to civil life. But, so long as they realise that there is nothing for them to do but to walk around the streets, idle, without any opportunity of getting the right to work and live, these young men are inclined to remain where they are. Unemployment, or the lack of any plans to demolish unemployment, are certainly causes of the continuance of the opposition to the Government at the present day. I do not think it is necessary to talk about the details of unemployment for, as Deputy Johnson mentioned, the figure was somewhere about 50,000. I have had three or four letters on it for the past week from different parts of the County Cork. Just before I stood up I got one from Aghada, and each of these letters suggested that the Dáil should do something to get employment for the out-of-work men in these districts. It is practically the same all over the County Cork, and so it is with every small town and every rural district which has got its quota of unemployed men, and some of these people are not quite as keen in striving to bring about a state of peace in the country as they should be. Three or four weeks ago I think it was the President or, at any rate, one other of the Ministers suggested that the civilian population were lacking a great deal in moral courage, and that if the civil population did not actually help the Irregulars at least they refrained from helping the National Forces. In my opinion those of the civil population who are unemployed have had very little encouragement to take an active interest in either side. They have remained simply passive. If they do not help the Irregulars they do not help the National Forces, because they have come to the conclusion that as they are out of a job with no means of livelihood it matters little to them whether the war lasts a week, a month, or twelve months. In my opinion it would be no longer possible for any Minister to accuse the people of a certain lack of moral courage if the people realised that the Government had some plans to put before the country to provide work and to enable them to live, I think even if the plans were laid before the country, although at the moment it was impossible to put them into operation, it would give an incitement to the people to put an end to the strife that is unfortunately going on, and it would give a certain amount of encouragement in the direction of bringing the present civil war to a conclusion. Therefore I support the motion moved by Deputy Johnson.

Mr. J. EVERETT

I rise to support the motion which has been moved. We heard a Deputy speak about unemployment grants, but what is wanted is really work. In the County Wicklow we have a vast amount of unemployment and the employers and workers have held meetings to endeavour to devise schemes to provide employment. A deputation came to the Minister for Agriculture some weeks ago and they were promised 400 acres of land in Wicklow upon which to plant trees. Up to the present not one man has found employment under that scheme. We had numerous applications from men who are willing to work, but were unable to gain employment. The County Council was trying to get work for the men on the road but they were unable to secure the money from the Government. Schemes had been considered by the County Council and they were prepared to assist the Government by every means in their power to put some scheme into operation which would diminish the evil of unemployment. We in Wicklow are in a unique position to provide employment. We have there our lead mines and silver mines which have been closed down, and these if they were worked would absorb the whole of the unemployment in the county. The Fishing Industry is at a standstill at the moment. The fishermen have had a very bad time, some of them were unable to secure their dinners in the last month. We ask the Government to try and relieve this awful distress in our county and in all other parts of Ireland as well.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I think it would be a pity if this matter should only be urged as it has been urged with such power from the Labour benches, because the matter appeals in every aspect to this Dáil and in every respect to the National life represented in this Dáil. I said before, and I am perfectly convinced now, that but for unemployment what is known as the Military situation would long ago have been got under. We are told by the President to-day that the Military situation is very well in hand. I am delighted to be assured of it in spite of appearances to the contrary. But I do feel convinced of this, that there is at the present moment a problem which is called a Military problem that is not primarily or fundamentally a Military problem at all or even a police problem. I believe that out of a total of 100 per cent. of the people to-day who are employed in illegal causes that brings them into hostility with organised Law as represented in this Assembly,—that out of that total of 100 per cent. not more than 10 per cent. concerned in the war are there for any principle—and 10 per cent. is a generous allowance—and that there are not 15 per cent. of those following leaders, engaged in the war, upon the question of principle. That is to say, that of the entire body engaged with the Irregular Forces to-day there are not more than 25 per cent. at the very outside concerned in the issue of principle. Who are the remaining 75 per cent.?

Mr. GOREY

Farmers' sons.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

The remaining 75 per cent. of the people engaged in Irregularism are those connected with it, not because of principle, but because there is no work for them to engage in, and that there are more people than there is work for. I know I will be told that even if work were provided, these people would not work. That is a remark that will always be made. When I raised this question once before, a gentleman in the gallery, a very well-known citizen, who was listening to me, said afterwards in the Lobby that these people were "work-shy." And he added, "has anyone ever had a holiday for three weeks that did not come back work-shy." Every unemployed person for a week or a month is work-shy. At the end of three months they are revolutionaries, and at the end of four months they are anarchists, and it is not until work is provided for those referred to as being in the ranks of Irregularism that irregularism will be brought to an end. I am, therefore, prepared to support this motion, because I believe it is at the bottom of the whole of the present trouble in this country to-day. I believe the work put into the hands of the Minister for Defence is work that no Minister of Defence in control of armed forces can deal with, because just so soon as he has dealt with it in one part of the country, by the very necessity of the case, and by the very destruction that he has had to cause, and from the very nature of the hostilities in which he is engaged, he has created as much unemployment in his endeavour to cure irregularism. He has created, in one form, irregularism, just as he is engaged in another form in keeping it down in one or other of its aspects. I think that is a matter which should engage the attention of the Dáil, and a plan should be formulated to deal with this unemployment. I agree with what the Deputy opposite said, that if plans were placed before the Dáil, even though these plans could not be put into immediate operation, even if it were a question of weeks before they could be put into operation, the mere publishing of them— the mere enunciation of them and publishing them here, and the mere knowledge that this Dáil was concerned with them, would have a remarkably salutary effect in parts of the country that would help the work engaged in by the Minister for Defence, and would reduce his problem to a more measurable military proposition that he could deal with, and, as I said before, the work he is engaged in would be taken off his shoulders by some such proposals as are asked for in this motion. For him and his colleagues in the Cabinet there are very great difficulties. We have been engaged in passing a Constitution, which is the primary concern of this Dáil. No one wants to minimise this. On the other hand, while there can be no minimising of the difficulties with which Ministers are faced, the urgency of this problem of unemployment, with the winter coming in, is a grave danger to the country.

Mr. GOREY

I rise to contradict the statement that has been made here with regard to irregularism, or as to who are the Irregulars. I happen to know something about the country I live in. I happen to know something about the prisoners who come in to Kilkenny, which holds about 400 at present. I happen to know something about Tipperary. I don't know about Dublin. But I do know that in the places I have mentioned that 95 per cent. of the Irregulars are the sons of farmers—small farmers. They are not from the labouring community at all. That class of people has been in the Irregulars all the time. The Regulars are the labourers. The vast majority of the Regulars are labouring people, but 95 per cent. of the Irregulars are, as I have said, the sons of small farmers. And Mr. Figgis can take that bee out of his bonnet altogether. Let him deal with figures and facts and cite them for us. I don't know much about figures, but I am only talking about the Irregulars. And it is the farmers' sons, who have plenty of work to do at home, who are the Irregulars.

LIAM de ROISTE

I would like to say, in reply to the last Deputy, that the position as regards the South of Ireland, more particularly as regards Cork City, has been stated by Deputy Nagle. A great portion of the irregularism that is going on at present is due to unemployment. Whatever it may be in other districts, it is at all events the fact down there, that it is due to unemployment. My opinion is that if a portion of the money which has now of necessity to be devoted to the Army were used for providing means for employment, it could get rid of irregularism, in some respects at all events, as quickly as the method of fighting the Irregulars. This is a matter which some of us in that district have gone very carefully into, and we are convinced in the truth of this. I personally am convinced of it that one of the best means, apart from the activities of the National Army, for bringing the state of war to an end is to provide employment for those who are willing to work. As the Minister for Defence in his statement to the Dáil said, there are three classes of Irregulars. There are those who do not want to work; there are idealists and the politicians; and those who in any event in fairly settled conditions even would be somewhat of the criminal class. But there is no doubt whatever that in the case of the South, the district that I am acquainted with, that there are large numbers even yet with the Irregulars who are simply out with them because they have no employment, and who would not be with them if they saw any opportunity of employment. Therefore I would strongly urge upon the Ministry the consideration again of that aspect of the case, because I believe it would lead to a cessation of the warfare so far as some of the Irregulars are concerned if there is a prospect of employment afforded to them.

I think the time has come when we must canonise some of those Irregulars. According to what we hear now the only complaint is that the Irregulars have not employment. There is an Irregular in Mountjoy at the present moment who had a position in the Dublin Corporation of £1,000 a year. I suppose it is not enough for him. He is now an unemployed Irregular. There is another Irregular there who was a messenger in my Department. He was fairly well paid at, I think, £3 a week. But I suppose that was not enough. There is another one of them who had over £6 a week, and so on. There is no use in telling us that it is due to unemployment. It is not. Irregularism brought about unemployment, and it is responsible for the present position of affairs. I can quite understand those who represent Labour, and whose entire interests are concerned with labour representation urging a case like this. But I do not understand a Deputy like Deputy Darrell Figgis standing up and refusing to look point blank at the actual economic circumstances of the case. You have got two illustrations already on the Continent showing examples of what is to be put up to us here. Russia is one, Austria is another. In the one case you have irregularism gone mad; in the other case you have what Deputy Darrell Figgis would urge us to do here. Now I am not a magician, and I am not in the position that Deputy Figgis is in to urge this Dáil or the country to pledge its credit for what it cannot afford to pay. I said that before. It will be admitted by any person who has weighed up the circumstances in the case that in the first place we have got no credit to mortgage. Absolutely none.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I did not refer to that.

You want to deal with unemployment. You will not deal with unemployment by printing paper, and if you do, no one would recognise it. And there is no other way except borrowing from somebody else. You will borrow from somebody else at an exorbitant figure, that you are not in a position to pay. The Government, since it came into office, has set apart for building houses one million pounds. By no means anything like a large part of that has been taken up by the local authorities. They are nibbling at it. And in the case of the district represented by another Deputy who has spoken here, plans are only being perfected, or the tender is only being received, and the price put up by the local contractor is something like £900 a house. Now, I put it to the Deputies here, can a country afford to pay that price for a house? Certainly not. And that is the position we are placed in, that in order to buy off irregularism we are to bankrupt the country, and to destroy the future prospects of the country under such bankruptcy. We have set £275,000 apart for roads, repairing of roads, and so on. And that is being distributed to the local authorities. Before the last Dáil went out of office, we had earmarked £100,000 for relief of distress in the Western seaboards. Now, that is £1,375,000 so far. That has nothing to say to such things as the sum I mentioned yesterday for the development by the Port and Docks Board. It has nothing to say to the huge sums of compensation that are being distributed, and will shortly be distributed in pretty considerable quantities, in every part of the country. There is a considerable danger in shovelling out huge quantities of money like that. There is a great danger of inflation. Now, the point evaded by every speaker is whether or not there is an equitable economic scale at present in operation in the country. That point was evaded by all the speakers. If there be not an equitable economic scale, one of two things is bound to happen. There is a possibility of a fall in the exchange. If you mean to have a currency of your own, you must honour the currency, and take every precaution to see there is no fall in it, or you will be getting half the price of the produce that you will export, and the only remaining industry in this country will be bankrupt, i.e., agriculture. You have got no other, because the possible accumulation of wealth and at the same time absolute discontent amongst the employees are the two things that you have got to steer an even keel between. I think the gentlemen on the other side of the House will admit that those are really the facts of the case. Now during my term of office as Minister for Local Government I came across one instance where a local authority had built 1,400 cottages and let them at small rents, and the last balance sheet I saw in connection with that showed that it would have paid the local authority to have discharged all outgoings for interest and principal-to have, in other words, said to the people: there are your cottages, keep them and repair them and look after them yourselves. We do not want any rent for them. It would have paid them to do that. I mention that fact because there has been all through the history of this country a general design to place practically every citizen in the community dependent upon the Government. That is a false basis—a wrong basis. If the gentlemen opposite, and they are perfectly entitled to do it, ask them and urge them to forward a scheme for housing more agricultural labourers throughout the country, it will be utterly impossible to get anything like the same financial accommodation as prevailed during the last decade or twenty years. There can be no mistake about it. Money has doubled in cost to the Government since that particular scheme of 1,400 cottages I am speaking about was put into operation, and unless those who have benefited under the Acts that have been passed realise their responsibility and pay the rent due on these houses and discharge their obligations to the State it is useless to come forward and say we want more houses. It cannot be done. In addition to the things I have mentioned we have set up a new organisation, known as the Civic Guard. There are, I understand, about 1,200 men employed in that. If they have not been drawn from the unemployed circles they have, at least, made room for employment for other people. I expect that force will be augmented by about a couple of thousand. We have taken a huge number of men into the Army, and we have not got any money in our Exchequer, and you know it. Only a fortnight ago I disclosed here the actual description of every penny we expected to receive. I gave you the actual figures of what we received during the last six months, and what we paid out, and I disclosed the sum we estimated would be paid out on foot of compensation in addition to the sums I have mentioned here to the Army and Civic Guard. But that is not the situation we have to face. There has been, whether we like it or not, a moral degradation taking place in the country for a very considerable time. You have, for instance, the case of the gentleman who wrote out from the barracks that he wanted a gun to interview bank managers and railway clerks, and other people like that. No, it is not unemployment, but it is that there has grown up a desire to get rich quick. Now, we have been criticised, not very far from the City of Dublin, for absolutely refusing to include baths in houses that we have provided. We have refused to do so, not because we are against baths—I take one every day myself, and I would prefer to have two or three rooms less in a house with a bath than to be without it—but I do say that a bath is a luxury, and that those who want it should pay for it. I say you have no right to house four families where you could house five in order to give the four families four baths. It was because the cost of a house in this case exceeded the cost we estimated, and we had estimated a fair price, £750 per house. I think it is a considerable price; it happens to be 40 or 50 per cent. in excess of similar houses in England, and we are not sufficiently rich to spend one and a half as much on anything in this country as the English are able to pay. Now, I do not know where the money is to be got in order to deal with these. Irregulars who are looking for employment. I do not know there are any Irregulars who are willing at this moment to come along and say “we will lay down our guns if you will provide us with employment, and we will be good citizens of the State.” Is that the position that is put up to us? It is not, and everyone who has spoken knows it. A Government commonly handles only the absolute excess profits, if we might say so, of the business of the country, i.e., profits over and above what is necessary to provide for the running of the business and the paying of the dividend on the capital invested. It is only the excess profits which we handle, because I look on Income Tax as an excess profit. In the particular case of two Deputies who have spoken, there was an absolute conspiracy on the part of the people who sent them here to evade their obligations. We have not got anything from one particular city I have mentioned—the City of Cork although we have made available for them something like £300,000.

LIAM de ROISTE

I do not like to contradict the Minister, but I think, on behalf of my constituents, that that statement should not be allowed to go. It is not as it is stated.

I am glad to hear that, because if there is not a conspiracy now there was up to a month or six weeks ago.

LIAM de ROISTE

Yes, against the English Government.

The English Government is out of this business now since April 1st.

LIAM de ROISTE

We did not know that.

I hope you will realise we want that money as soon as possible. I will qualify my statement to this extent. Up to two months ago, under one heading, we had not got a single per cent. of the Income Tax due to us, and in another case, I think, the whole average would not amount to 5 per cent. of the total Income Tax due to us, and we have available for that city something like £300,000, made up out of compensation claims, housing, and road board grants. We cannot pay out these moneys unless the people pay us their money. It is an ordinary matter of business. I do not know that it would be possible to effect the purpose that Deputy Johnson has in mind about paying a certain sum of money conditional upon that particular sum of money being spent on Irish manufactured goods. It is one of those cases in which a Deputy who was very thin, and a Deputy who was very fat, might each complain that the cost of living affected them in a ratio that was not recognised by the Ministry of Industry and Commerce when fixing the figure for the cost of living. One man might say that the incidence pressed heavily upon him. My information about Irish Manufacturers is to the effect that they sell their goods largely abroad, that the home trade is inconsiderable. That is what I am told. I don't know how Deputy Johnson's suggestion could be carried out. In practice it would be excellent, if it could be put into practice.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON

All I ask for is an inquiry. I have had certain expert commendation on the proposal.

To wind up, I say that, in my view, unless the criminal situation in the country be dealt with— and it cannot be dealt with by any organisation that the Government can set up—it must be dealt with by the healthy and active co-operation of every section of the community—if that were dealt with it would do more towards restoring normal conditions of trade than any steps which the Government could possibly take, even if they had those moneys.

Mr. KEVIN O'HIGGINS

I am very glad that that motion was put down for to-day. Unemployment in the country is a paramount question before the Government and before the people. Several times here I referred to the deputation which came before the Dáil last December and spoke of the 30,000 then unemployed up and down and through the country. If I had any doubt in my mind as to the vote I would have given on the Treaty issue, the grave words of the spokesman of that deputation would have removed such doubt. So far from that critical problem having been solved or dealt with since, it has, from the force of circumstances, gone from bad to worse and it stands to-day as a factor menacing the life of this Nation, menacing the fabric of ordered society within this Nation. To what extent it is the duty of a Government to intervene in a matter of that kind is an interesting subject for discussion. People have always differed and people now differ and people will probably always differ as to the exact functions of a Government; whether it is merely to attempt to create and maintain a condition of things which will leave the freest possible scope to individual enterprise, or whether the State should go further and attempt to deal with such problems as unemployment itself. That is a matter which could always be discussed with great advantage and interest, but this problem that exists now is on all too large a scale to permit of its being discussed in any merely academic way. It is said that the State cannot live by its citizens taking in each other's washing. A State cannot live by its citizens raiding one another's houses, and the position here in this country at the moment is that there is no spirit of work from top to bottom, none of that spirit of industry which you have in Continental countries, but only a desire to live by raiding one another's houses, and that cannot last indefinitely. We can and will beat down this armed opposition. It is not a pleasant task; there is no joy of battle; no one will be heady or flushed with victory when it is over; it has been a grim and painful task since last December, but we can and will beat it down, and having beaten it down we will have prisoners on our hands to the number of, perhaps, 10,000. Having beaten it down, how does this State stand? Is it going to grow and flourish, or to perish in sheer futility? That is a question which we of this Government cannot answer. We can merely restore, with a strong hand, conditions which will enable people to live honestly and work honestly. But whether this State will live or die is a question which only its citizens can answer, and whether it will live or die will depend on the spirit of work, on the spirit of industry in its population. There is no use coming in here and reading lectures to the Government, which has been doing its best since last January, while wild men were screaming through the key-holes; no use whatever; no use whatever in coming in and talking to us about any expenditure of money, when the normal taxation of the country is not being paid, and when the credit of the country is not worth twopence. Go out to the country and read your lectures to the people of the country. Go out to the country with strong words of condemnation against those who are creating conditions which are smashing enterprise, creating conditions under which every man who had a five pound note is sitting on it. I do not want to get over-heated on this subject, and I do not mean what I have said in any personally offensive way. That is the kernel of the problem, that the people are not working, that somehow they have forgotten how to work, and that a great many of them are determined, if they can at all help it, that they never will work again, like our poor friend who wrote out asking for a gun to be kept for him so that when he got out of jail he could have brief and profitable interviews with bank managers and railway clerks. No Government can change the heart of the people; the people themselves must get a grip of these matters, and must realise that we have reached the stage when we must trust to evolution rather than to revolution for the attainment of our ideals, and that in any case, if we are to go ahead afresh, we must work. It is a primal curse, and you cannot get away from it, and the individual or the family or the nation that attempts to get away from it perishes. Somehow I think there is a mentality in this country which rather ignores, or is inclined to ignore, that primal curse at the moment, that thinks you can get the result of work without the work. And you cannot. You may try for a while, and you may seem to succeed, but you go down, and this country will go down, and no man or body of men will save it, if we do not conquer that mentality, if that idea of individual responsibility for the ordered conduct of society is not resurrected. A phrase was used here, and it was a true one—"If the pack is strength to the wolf, the wolf is strength to the pack." I like that, because it sums up that idea of the responsibility of the unit to the mass, and if the units of our mass do not get thinking along these decent, orderly, straight lines, and do not realise the seriousness of the problem of the moment, then we are steering for a bad smash. This Government cannot lay grandiose schemes for draining up unemployment before the Dáil, because it cannot lay grandiose schemes for obtaining the money that would be necessary to carry out such public works as would drain up the unemployment of the country. We are attempting to restore conditions which will enable commercial enterprise to have free play, and we cannot work miracles, but we are gradually restoring them. The people must do the rest. Somehow we have not been doing our own housekeeping for many a long year, and always we could blame someone else. Now, when we find ourselves in that position that we must blame ourselves, if things go wrong, many of us have difficulty in appreciating the change. But a people that has not been doing its own housekeeping for centuries is inclined to be woefully irresponsible, and this people is woefully irresponsible, and has been woefully irresponsible since last December, and if we are cured of that irresponsibility, the medicine will be sour medicine, indeed, but it will be, on the whole, healthy medicine.

Mr. JOSEPH McGRATH

I was following this debate fairly closely, but unfortunately I was called away and I do not know what the President has said, although he usually covers the whole ground. I was called away, not on the question of unemployment, but about a strike that is on, at the present moment. I will not say what parties are responsible for it, but it is only another case of taking advantage of the times we are in that is responsible for the strike. The way it appears to be me is that unemployment at the present moment is not getting the relief it should, and I have evidence, which I am not in a position to produce now, but which I can produce at a later date, to show that the sitting on the £5 note, as referred to by the Minister for Home Affairs, is the correct one, and on the other hand, the men also seem to want the last pound of flesh. Consequently there is nothing doing on either side. It is a fact that there is a lot of money available in Cork City, and plenty of work can be started there, but the ring of the employers is too strong, and on the other hand, they say, and a good many people say, that the men want too much money. That may be due to the fact that the very thing we were discussing here to-day is correct, that profiteering is rampant there. In any case, that is the position, and the Government can do nothing, as between both parties. I have proof that the employers in Cork—the contractors— wanted thousands of pounds more than a Dublin firm or an English firm, and it may be that we may yet have to bring over English contractors to do all the Irish work that is to be done.

Mr. D.J. GOREY

And the English standard of work.

Mr. McGRATH

It must be said in all fairness that the contractors who have taken on the work are paying the same wages that the Cork contractors would have to pay, but they are not exactly looking for the same profit. There are other cases throughout the country where the employers have offered perhaps ten shillings a week less, and the men turned it down. Hundreds of people could have got employment. Neither side would budge. The result Nothing doing! What could the Government do in that case? Nothing. As regards the future, we have been asked to lay before the Dáil any plans we have prepared for dealing with the problem. Deputy Johnson very fairly asked us to state definitely if we had such plans, and if we have not to say we have not. I will be perfectly frank with him and say we have not any plans, but we have not lost sight of the question; we have not been forgetting it. I do not agree that we should wait until the Irregulars are put down and hope then that industrial and commercial enterprise will bring about normal employment. Before this thing occurred, and even in 1914 before the war, there were chronic cases of unemployment. It was always here; it was everywhere, but there is no reason why we should not tackle it and see if we could not get rid of it for good and all. Let us be frank. I do not believe that talking in this way will remedy it. I believe that it is necessary to get together a body which will go largely on the lines suggested by Deputy Johnson to-day, but will have nothing else to do but to consider it, from every point, and explore every avenue, and then advise a Government, whatever Government it may be—it may be the present Government. It will, however, take a long time, but such a body should get going immediately and have nothing else to do. There are men available who are anxious to do it. They would tackle the question thoroughly and we then may get to the bottom of it. That is, apart entirely from the present situation or the situation arising out of the war. In dealing with that question they naturally would be anxious, and we would be anxious, that they should deal with the question of unemployment money. It is bad that unemployment money should be paid at all. I agree that it has a very demoralising effect, but it has been put up to us, not by any official labour people, that it should be increased. There was a body prior to the outbreak of June, calling themselves the Council of Action, who mobilised four or five hundred people outside the Provisional Government Buildings; they came in and saw me and put up reasons why the unemployment benefit should be increased, as compared with England, etc. I brought the matter naturally, as I promised them, before the Cabinet, and it was a question of nothing doing. This unemployment scheme is purely an English scheme. It is one that we took over from the British and we have carried it on exactly on the same lines as it was carried on in the past, but there is no reason why it should not be tackled to see if it is necessary at all and to see if the money that is being spent on it could not be spent in another way. Some people seem to think it is absolute waste of money giving it in that way. I do not think, when proper consideration is given, that they will come to that conclusion. After all, even if you did put that money to something else, there would be a very large number who would go hungry. There is a good deal in what Deputy Johnson said regarding the question of Technical Instruction, more particularly for females, and if it were possible, to place a premium on their attendance there, I think it would be a good thing, but then, it would be only such a body as I referred to in the beginning could deal with such a matter. That is the position as it strikes me at this moment, and as I said before, we have been considering the formation of such a body, and we will welcome, as Deputy Johnson promised, the help of his party, and the help of every other party in forming that committee, to get at the bottom of this thing, not as at present, but to get rid of it wholly if possible. It confronts every country and it is not the result of war alone, because it was there before the war, and it was very bad before the war. That I know personally.

Mr. THOS. JOHNSON

The discussion at least has brought forth that very frank statement of the Minister for Industry and Commerce that the Government has no plans for dealing with this problem. Well, I suppose one cannot be too hard, in view of the circumstances, in view of their newness to the responsibilities of office, and the tremendous problems they have had to face, but I believe, that had they given all attention to this—at least all the attention this problem demands, and had been bold enough to jump clear of the commercial system which they have inherited, or even taken the first steps to get clear of that commercial system which they have inherited, they would have been on the way to solve the problem permanently. It is quite true, as the Minister has pointed out, this is not a problem peculiar to the conditions in Ireland at the moment; it is a universal problem, a problem that has followed wars and that has followed a long period of peace, but it is a problem that ought not to exist, particularly in a country such as this, which is close to the earth, which should make it possible to feed and clothe and house men and women and children, without all the intricacies of the modern commercial system. Ministers have spoken of the difficulties of finance, but we heard stories in the House to the effect that crops have been abandoned in certain cases, farmers cannot sell their produce, which is food—and this is a food problem fundamentally. I submit that it is possible, even without the financial resources that the Minister spoke of, to bring food to the mouths of hungry men, and to make those men fit to produce more food, and your economic problem is thereby solved. This introduction of the financial difficulty is the bogey that is going to prevent for ever any settlement of this problem, if we allow it to remain as the bogey. Money, exchange, and finance ought to be considered in due relation to the realities of industrial and economic life, as an adjunct, an accessory, an assistant to the proper distribution of commodities. If finance interferes with that proper distribution of commodities, then find some other way of distributing these commodities. The material wealth, apart from finance, is here in the country. People require that wealth to consume it. They are prepared to give their labour for the production of more wealth in exchange, and if we are bold enough we can bring the hungry man and the unclothed child into closer relations with the producer of food and the producer of clothing. If finance is in the way, skip finance. If it is not going to be a help, do not let it be a hindrance. Hungry men and barns full of corn, idle mills and bakers capable of making the corn into bread! You have got to face the fact that the food is there, and the people who will consume that food are willing to turn their labour into other commodities, and if you are willing to get away from the habits of mind of the commercialist, the capitalist system, and take a step into the co-operative commonwealth, that so many people spoke about in the years before the Treaty, we shall then be able to solve this particular problem, or at least take a long step towards solving it. Ministers have thrown contempt upon the suggestion that there is much connection between what has been called Irregularism and unemployment. I did not stress that, nevertheless, I am quite convinced that there is a very close connection between the two problems—one being sometimes a cause, and sometimes an effect. In very many cases, if the opportunity were available for men to turn from the present irregular habits, to the older, and I hope, the newer, regular habits, when men will give service for their livelihood, if the opportunity serves, very large numbers, I am quite certain, will turn from irregular habits to regular habits. We will need, if we want to solve this problem, to think not of the ordinary methods of commerce and trade and industry and capital and wages and profit. The Minister for Commerce and Industry has pointed out, that this problem may be accentuated at the present time in Ireland, but that it is a problem affecting England, Scotland, France, America, and other countries, where they have not an Irregular problem. Can not we make an attempt to solve the problem in a way which other countries have not been willing to solve it? People require goods, and the goods are waiting for consumption. People, in exchange for goods, are prepared to give their services, their energies, their skill, their brainpower, their muscular power, their experience. That is the circle, the complete circle. By such means only can we bring the ends of the split circle into unison again. Unless we are willing to strike out a line for ourselves we are not going to solve this problem, and you are going to get all the difficulties of Irregularism, you are going to get all the difficulties of unemployment, and all the problems arising out of unemployment, not only this year, but next year, and successive years, perhaps to an extent that will prevent the development of this country on the lines so many hoped for in the past few years. I take it, it is useless to push this motion to a division, inasmuch as the Ministers told us quite frankly that the Government has no plans, so that the object of the motion, in that respect at least, has been served, so I beg to withdraw it.

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