In the absence of the Minister for Finance, I move this Estimate for the Ministry of Local Government, £868,426.
DAIL IN COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. - MINISTRY OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT.
I would like to remind the Dáil that at the beginning of this Session I drew the attention of members to a very serious matter concerning Local Government Administration. I refer to the appalling state of affairs in some constituencies regarding the non-collection of rates, and the effect of that upon every section of the community. In the area that I represent at the present time, Leix and Offaly, we have arrears to the extent of £41,000 outstanding, in the Leix Division, and £29,000 outstanding in the Division of Offaly. One wonders and wants to find out what is the real cause of this appalling state of affairs. It appears to me it is largely due to a lack of civic responsibility on the part of the people who have taken advantage of the unfortunate state of affairs of the country at the present time. These people fail to appreciate the fact that the non-payment of rates, and failure to carry out their duties in this respect will have a very dangerous effect upon themselves later on. In this particular area there is a disposition, although there was no such disposition during the period of the Black and Tan regime, to take the view that this native Government, so far as the Free State Government is concerned, will not function. I think they will see later on that that is only a delusion, and that those who are waiting to take advantage of the time when this visionary and far-off Republic is going to come into operation are making a mistake. They are, as it were, marking time for the day that that Republic will function, and when under a Republic that would suit them it would make arrangements so that they would be deprived of carrying out their responsibilities in this particular direction. Now, I would like to remind the Minister for Local Government that in my opinion, at any rate, the non-payment of these rates is due to some extent to the laxity on the part of the rate collectors themselves. I know cases where farmers offered the rates to the collector and where they were refused. The rate collectors in these cases say that under the present circumstances, with armed robbers all around this area, it would not be safe for them to take the money. On the other hand, there is a belief, at least I am convinced of this, that the rate collectors, not being in the position of being dependent entirely for their livelihood on the poundage or commission derived from these collections, are not very much worried on that account, and on that account also are not doing what I think they should have done in this direction. It is well known in this area, and I think in other areas as well, that the collectors are either small or large farmers or shopkeepers, who have other means of earning a living besides the poundage or commission derived from the collection of the rates. Now in the area of Leix where this very large sum is outstanding, up to the end of last year, on going through the list which I have seen in some cases amounts are due by people of £40 upwards, showing that it is the larger farmers and big landowners who are responsible for the non-payment of these rates. We have in the Leix area at the present time, as a result of the non-payment of rates, to face the fact that 330 road workers were disemployed on the 18th of last month, and up to that date had been working for three weeks without any remuneration. I understand that since that date, an arrangement or an agreement was come to whereby these workers are going back to their positions and waiting for the day, which I hope is not far away, when the County Council will be in a position to pay what they already owe and for the work the men are now doing. I think that is a terrible state of affairs, and I hope the Minister will take steps to remedy the position as far as that particular area is concerned. One might think of trying to remedy that state of affairs, and one particular thing occurs to me which might be done by the Minister or the Government. The Government are aware that in this particular area the troops are practically free from attacks, so far as the Irregulars are concerned, and I can see no more useful or necessary work at the present time than that the troops should give some assistance or protection to the collectors to carry out this very important work. They might by arrangement serve notices area by area that on certain days the troops or some other means of protection would be afforded to rate collectors, who would call on the people who owe this money to pay it to the Government. I presume, at a later date, all defaulters or people who would not pay rates, under such circumstances as I have mentioned, if the Government agreed to carry out an arrangement of that kind, will be dealt with through the Courts that I believe and hope will function at a very early date. I raise the matter, simply because I believe Local Government Administration is the very prop upon which the Administration of the National Government depends, and if you let local Government Administration in this and other areas collapse, then I believe we are wasting our time here in trying to carry on the National Government of this country. We have also to face the fact that the non-payment of rates such as I have referred to in these cases, will, if it has not already had very serious effects on the suffering and sick poor catered for in the hospitals and lunatic asylums. I hope that will be taken into consideration, too, and that people, particularly people who owe these rates and who expect that the roads and all these things will be kept going by the County Councils and the National Government will recognise things, and if they do not recognise the duties that fall upon them under any system of Government, that this Government will let them see, and I believe they can, that the Free State Government is going to function in this country. I make the suggestion that the military should give some hand, especially in this area that is so free from Irregular activities, and I hope that the Government will adopt the suggestion, or adopt some other reasonable or effective means that will compel those people to realise and recognise their civic responsibilities.
I think Deputy Davin has done a service, not merely to his constituency and mine, but to the country in drawing attention to this matter. He has put his finger upon a very vital factor in the present situation. Vested interests grow rapidly, and there are vested interests in disorder and vested interests in civil tumult. Vested interests have grown up even round this horrible state of affairs that we have had in this country since last January. There are people so shortsighted as to favour resistance to the present Government, not so much in any doctrinaire spirit, not so much resisting it because it is a particular form of Government rather than another form of Government, but simply in a spirit of resistance to the establishment of any Government whatsoever; because the establishment and consolidation of any form of Government would mean that they would have to pay what they owe, whether rates or rents or land annuities. We are not at grips at the moment so much with any politicalism or any Republicanism, or anything like that, as with that kind of foolish, shortsighted anarchy that has a vested interest in disorder. I remember on one occasion, before there was any native Government established or recognised here, appealing in my capacity as Assistant Minister of Local Government to the heads of the Labour Union for assistance in this matter of rate collection. I asked them to circularise their branches, pointing out that the failure to pay rates was a direct blow at the community as a whole, but more particularly at the very poorest and most helpless elements in the community. That appeal was well and generously met, and met in a spirit of recognition of the fact that what was stated was so. The man who takes advantage of the disturbed political conditions to keep his rates in his pocket is a defaulter and is striking at the sick, at the poor and at the insane. The first to feel the blow are the poor, just as in Leix the first pinch came on the unfortunate employees of the local authorities whose weekly wages could not be met. A public service has been done by drawing attention to this matter. Deputy Davin is right when he says that the courts will shortly function in that area, and the magistrates and the Civic Guard will get their instructions to do everything possible to expedite and enforce the collection of rates. But, in addition to that we must have the intelligent support of the general public in this matter. A healthy, intelligent public spirit on this matter of the payment of rates would work more wonders than any courts or any police force. Certainly, as an auxiliary to the courts and to the police force, it will be invaluable. I am glad that such an earnest appeal was made here, as the appeal that has been made by my colleague. If people would only think and see the possible reaction of their conduct, they would scarcely persist in it. It is a fair test to apply to any man's conduct in a matter of this kind to ask what would be the effect if it were raised to a general standard of action? What would the result be if all his neighbours did the same? Let any man visualise the state of affairs that would be brought about in a county or in any area by the complete cessation of rate payment. It means the closing of the hospitals, of the unions, the neglect of all sanitary regulations and roads going into disuse. It means the decay of that community. The man who says "Let others pay, I won't," that man is picking his neighbour's pockets; he is trying to shoulder off on his neighbours the burden that he should properly share, and the burden of which he should share his just proportion. There is no excuse for that. It is no use to say: "I am Anti-Treaty; I will pay nothing." Pro-Treaty or Anti-Treaty, let a man have whatever political creed he wishes, but he should bear his share of the public expenses that are vital to the decent life of the community. We are up against that vested interest in disorder, and that vested interest in disorder will have to be met and beaten by the courts, met and beaten by the agents of the Government, but, above all, met and beaten by a healthy independent public opinion.
By way of explanation an evening paper has been handed to me, and it says:—"Armed military accompanied Mr. John Dunne, rate collector, Tullamore Urban area, yesterday, collecting rates from defaulters in the town, and to make seizures if necessary. The parties promptly paid up." I hope that will be carried out elsewhere, and with like results.
On looking over these Estimates I am very much concerned to find a considerable reduction in some of the activities that very properly could be called Public Health matters. I am quite sure the Minister will be able to explain as to these. I have heard, first of all, a suggestion put forth that in the Estimates for 1921-1922 the Six Counties were included. If that be so, of course the explanation is there afforded. The first item I find here is, as far as Child Welfare and schools for mothers are concerned the Estimate is cut down by £3,700. I take it that this money is given to subsidise the voluntary institutions that are working in this very important direction—that is in looking after child welfare and cases of expectant mothers, and the training of mothers who already have families. The second point is more important still. Under the heading of the medical treatment, etc., of school children I find £40 is placed for this year's estimates, as against £7,500. If my explanation is correct—namely, that this is due to the fact that the Six Counties are not included, then I say that it is not to the credit of the Twentysix counties that the amount of money to be spent in this coming year is £40. In 1919 the English Act provided that the County Councils should or must undertake schemes for the medical treatment of school children. This is one of the most important matters, to my mind, that can be undertaken—to look after the children, to look after their teeth, throats and eyes, and particularly to look after the chests of the children who may become tubercular. These are extremely important matters. I should like in this connection to ask the Minister for Local Government, when he mentioned that a Bill was being prepared at the present time—whether that Bill which is in preparation is merely a Bill to legalise what already was done by the last Dáil, or whether this Bill that is coming in now is really a comprehensive Bill to include the many suggested improvements that I touched upon yesterday evening. The third point is the treatment of tuberculosis. I do not know whether my argument applies again or not. I know that many years ago Lady Aberdeen told us that if we adopted the measures she was pursuing, tuberculosis would soon die out in Ireland. Unfortunately tuberculosis is still with us and I should be sorry to think that this reduction means that the activities in connection with the treatment and prevention of tuberculosis were being lessened. I may say at once that I willingly accept reductions in Estimates when those reductions mean better administration, but I would deplore reductions very much if they were to lessen the activities of bodies or institutions or measures that are doing an immeasurable amount of good for the public health of the country. I see that the specific Grant-in-aid to Peamount has been reduced from £6,000 to £2,300. I should like to know the reason the Minister for Local Government has for reducing this amount. There are several other matters I should like to refer to but the evening is getting late.
I think every Deputy will support any grant directed towards doing away with tuberculosis, but the ordinary layman has to complain that there is great diversity of opinion as to the proper methods of treating it. Some doctors are opposed to the sanitorium system and favour other systems. I for one would be opposed to a large expenditure in this direction until the Medical Authorities are more decided as to the advantages of the system. There is another item in this Estimate that I wish to refer to. I see here that the Provisional Government proposes to import into this country in the coming year £1,876 worth of vaccine lymph. Last year they imported £1,460 worth of it. I think that would have been enough without increasing the amount by £416. I am one of those who think this thing of vaccination is one of the jokes of a very serious and great profession. There is a greater diversity of opinion amongst the doctors on this question than there is amongst the laymen. In England they had to recognise this diversity of opinion, and there up to some years ago vaccination was compulsory. Then an exemption clause was introduced, and now vaccination is not compulsory, and there are thousands and millions of children in England to-day unvaccinated. Small-pox has appeared in London, and there are thirty or forty cases, and if these unvaccinated children were really in danger it would have spread like wildfire. There are people in this country, as well as in England, who really believe vaccination is no more a protection against small-pox than a sheet of paper is a protection against a bullet. The idea of persecuting the poor children by inflicting this injury upon them and by putting this impure lymph into them is simply ridiculous. I cannot but admire my courage. I have a doctor on each side of me and another behind me. In speaking about this, however, I am armed with the highest medical opinion. For instance, the Encyclopedia Britannica, in dealing with the subject of vaccination, engaged, I have no doubt, the best doctor in England to enquire into its scientific foundation. He found it had no scientific foundation, and that it was a delusion. As Sir Alfred Wallace has called it, "it was the most grotesque delusion of modern times." There are people who hold strong opinions on this question. When we want the doctors we are glad to get their pills or their bottles, but the idea of them coming and forcibly catching hold of you, scratching your arm, and putting some foul concoction that they call lymph into it, and making you sick, is an extraordinary thing altogether. I believe this is really a joke on the part of the doctors, because theirs is such a serious profession they must have something on which to vent their sense of humour. In the Co. Wexford they have such an opinion on this question that they resolved not to have their children vaccinated, and about a dozen of them went to jail in Waterford, before going to jail became the fashion, rather than have their children vaccinated. I am at one with Sir James Craig in what he said here the other evening about doing away with disease, but anyone as old as I am, or those who are not will have heard it from their parents, will remember that 30 or 40 years ago all the fever hospitals in Ireland had a large population; there were two or three hundred in each. Owing to sanitation, owing to better housing, all these dirt diseases were removed, and the fever hospitals are practically empty now. Vaccination is not credited in the slightest degree. Good sanitation, good housing and better food drove away typhoid and measles and smallpox and other diseases, and vaccination had as little to do with it as the flowers that bloom in the spring, and the doctors know that very well. I am surprised to see a very sensible man like Sir James Craig talking about vaccination. I am sure in his heart and soul he does not believe in it at all.
I am at one with Deputy Sears that there should not be an undue amount of money spent on the management of sanitoria, but, at the same time, I for one hold that sanitoria should not be abolished. We know that, strictly speaking, there is no absolute cure for pulmonary consumption, but, having watched the results of patients after being treated in sanitoria, I am satisfied these sanitoria should be retained. The one solid fact, to my mind, that Deputy Sears mentioned when he was speaking about sanitoria and tuberculosis, was that the best thing we could do for our people in the matter of overcoming tuberculosis was the building of houses. I hold that Public Health generally can be improved principally by good housing for our people. Down in Waterford, owing to the goodness of the Government, we have gone on rapidly with our housing scheme. We have forty houses under construction at present and twenty of them are nearing completion. We hope to get on with a further Scheme. I for one believe that until we get houses for our people, and houses in abundance, money spent on public health, unless a large amount of it goes to the building of houses, is so much money thrown away. Now I was sorry to hear the learned Deputy Sears speaking in a rather frivolous manner about vaccination. I for one am satisfied that vaccination is a preventive against small-pox—absolutely. I visited our National Lymph Institute in Sandymount about a fortnight ago, and I can assure the Deputy, An Ceann Comhairle, and the Dáil generally, that the vaccine there is produced under the most aseptic conditions, and it is tested by one of the greatest physiologists in the country at present. There is no question about the purity of vaccine in Ireland. As I say it is tested by bacteriologists before any of the lymph is supplied to practitioners throughout the country. Now I do not wish to create a scare, but we must recollect that small-pox is prevalent in England at present, and that it is a virulent type of small-pox. I think the number of deaths is nearly 50 per cent. Now as I said before, I for one have no hesitation in saying that vaccination is a preventive against small-pox. Should a person who has been vaccinated be so unfortunate as to get small-pox I am satisfied the disease would be in a greatly modified form. The only thing is I do not believe in forcing anything on anybody, but I certainly believe that everyone should be vaccinated, and there is not the slightest chance of any loathsome disease being communicated to children or adults by using Irish vaccine. I have consulted some of the oldest and most skilled of our profession in Dublin, and they to a man have told me that they are satisfied that lymph vaccine is practically a specific against small-pox. I for one am absolutely satisfied that it is; in fact I intend getting myself re-vaccinated some of these days. I was vaccinated when I was a child, and again when there was an outbreak in 1901, and as vaccine and its effects only holds good against disease for about seven years, that is one of the reasons I think it is essential and very important that extra watchfulness and care should be exercised by the Port Sanitary Authorities and by the public authorities in Ireland generally that have to do with any of the ports where vessels come from the other side. As I say, I do not want to create a scare, but at the same time we cannot shut our eyes to the fact that on the other side they have small-pox. I do not treat this matter in a spirit of levity. I look upon it as a very important matter. I do not know if my friend Deputy Sears was vaccinated when a child, but if he was not I think it would be a very wise thing to get vaccinated now.
I wish to dwell for a few moments on some of the items in this Estimate. First, I would like the Minister for Local Government to answer a question with regard to Child Welfare. I see in 1922 the sum for this was £10,700, and for 1922-1923, £7,000, a decrease of £3,700. Now I think it is the duty of this Government to see that the children of the soldiers who died for the freedom of their country since 1916 should be included in this. Their mothers should be helped to educate them, and should get some help from the Government for their maintenance. I know a case in my own constituency where a woman lost two sons during the time that the British Government tried to force their rule on the Irish people by the sword and revolver. This particular woman has received nothing from the Government, although one of her sons was shot in Ballykinlar, and another was shot outside Athlone. I hope the Minister for Local Government will see that such cases are looked after. Another woman, newly married, suffered somewhat similarly, as her husband was also shot in Ballykinlar, the one bullet killing the two.
AN LEAS CHEANN COMHAIRLE
The Deputy cannot go into that matter on this Vote.
All right, but I think I am entitled on the question of child welfare and schools for mothers to go into this matter to try and see if something can possibly be done for the widows and orphans of those men who laid down their lives for the freedom of the country. With regard to the medical treatment for school children I see a decrease under that head of £7,460. Now I wonder do the Government intend to put that decrease as an increase on the rates on the local bodies where the schools are situated. Do they expect that the County Councils and the District Councils are going to supply an additional rate in order to make up the amount of the deficit in this Estimate? With reference to the treatment of tuberculosis I have heard some of the learned doctors speaking here on the subject, but as a workingman I think that there is a great deal more spent in curing tuberculosis than is spent in preventing the spread of the disease. One of the proper methods of endeavouring to prevent it would be to get the County Councils to adopt the Diseases of Animals Act that was in being in Ireland up to 1920. A majority of the County Councils have not this Act working, and the milk from tubercular cows is distributed to workers' children in the towns. In that way tuberculosis is spread. With regard to the item "County Council Administration Grants," these grants supplied to County Councils will, I hope, be taken into account by the Minister for Local Government. I want to deal with this particular item in order to get a sufficient guarantee from this Government on behalf of the Council that I have the honour to be member for, that is Westmeath County Council, and to see, if possible, that it shall be applied for the relief of the unemployed in that county for the coming year. Heretofore grants were paid for steam-rolling to each County Council by way of 50 per cent. of the expenditure by the County Council for steam-rolling. Furthermore, all the taxes collected on motor cars were repayable to the County Councils from the Ministry of Transport for the maintenance of the roads. I hope that the present Ministry of Local Government will also follow the same tactics in having the money collected in each county in motor taxes refunded to the county in which it is collected, in order to give employment by way of road work. There is another item that I wish to mention to the Minister for Local Government, and that is the capitation grant to the mental hospitals. About thirty-three years ago these were about 4s. per head, which meant about 50 per cent. of the cost of maintenance. At the present time the cost of the maintenance of patients in the district hospital of Mullingar is about 24s. 6d. The ratepayers of the three counties which are contributing in the rates for the maintenance of these patients, which number something about 1,313, have to bear the full cost of the maintenance, which means something like £50,000 in the present year. I think it is only right that, as everything else has been increased, that these capitation grants should also be increased, in order to relieve the ratepayers of these counties who are contributing for the maintenance of these patients, because I can assure you that they have quite enough to pay—more than the majority are able to.
AN LEAS CHEANN COMHAIRLE
I must remind the Deputy that he has spoken for twenty minutes now. The time is short.
This is the first time I have spoken to-day.
AN LEAS CHEANN COMHAIRLE
We have only an hour now.
Might I attempt to save time? Perhaps if the Minister would answer the questions raised by Deputy Sir James Craig on these deductions, it might save a good deal of discussion.
Perhaps I could save time by doing that. In the case of the first, (l)“Child Welfare and Schools for Mothers, etc.,” the state of affairs is that the Ministry refunds to certain local authorities and to certain voluntary agencies, of which there is a very large number, half their total expenditure. Now, owing to the state of the country, the amount expended and the work done by various local authorities and by the voluntary agencies have been very much decreased. Consequently, the amount estimated for by us was decreased. The same thing applies to item (n)“Grants for the Provision of Meals for School Children.” This Act has been taken up by only a very small number of local authorities in the country—Dungarvan, Enniscorthy, Fermoy, Dublin, Listowel, Wexford, Kilkenny, Dun Laoghaire, and, in fact, I do not know whether it is in operation in all of those. The Ministry pays half of the expenditure again, so that we do not really control the amount that is being expended on these heads. The degree of expenditure is determined to a large extent by the local authorities taking up the scheme, and the extent to which they carry it out. At present there is a difficulty in regard to that particular matter. Owing to some slip in the drafting of the Act, grants are only paid in regard to National schools, and cannot be paid as regards other Primary schools, as, for instance, Christian Brothers' schools. I think that that was not intended. Coming to item (o)“Medical Treatment of School Children.” In the previous year the sum of £7,500 was voted, but I do not think that any was expended. In the year before that a sum of £8,000, had been voted for, and none was expended. In the year before £1,000 had been voted, and none was expended, for whatever reason, and it is a thing to be looked into. This Act is practically not worked at all. In one area it is being taken up. There are a few small voluntary dental clinics which get small grants. They are at Malahide, Milltown, Rathgar and Crumlin, all in the neighbourhood of Dublin. It may be that the regulations are at fault, but, in any case so far the scheme of medical treatment of school children is practically not operated. In regard to the treatment of tuberculosis, again the amount to be estimated for is determined by the local authorities, and by the Insurance Committees, to some extent. The Ministry pays half of the amount expended. Some counties, I think, have dropped their tuberculosis scheme, but they may take them up again as we arrive at more normal conditions. In regard to the grants for Peamount Sanatorium, there was a special grant for repairs to the sanatorium which had fallen into serious disrepair. The unexpended balance of last year's Vote is being asked for again. There was a total Vote last year of £6,000, of which £3,700 was expended, and the balance £2,300, is being re-voted. These, I think, are the principal items in which a decrease appears in the Estimate.
I did not catch what the Minister said with regard to the Christian Brothers' Schools.
It is a matter for legislation. I think it should be extended to all primary schools, but that is a matter for the future.
Personally I think it would be well to see that the system is extended to the Christian Brothers. Bigger things have been done without legislation, and I think it would be well that this should be done without delay.
We cannot act without legislation, fortunately or unfortunately, as we did in the past.
It is very seldom that anyone hears me asking for more money for a department, but I think that the burden of the local rates in the country is not put on the right shoulders, and that the incidence of taxation should not fall so heavily and with such tremendous weight as it is doing upon the shoulder of the farmer. For that reason I would like this vote to be greater, and that the expenses placed upon County Councils should be treated more as part of the expenditure by the State. For instance, if you take the two counties, that are the doorsteps of Dublin, that is Wicklow and Kildare, you will find that the roads there are maintained by the County Councils, but the traffic comes from Wexford on the one side and from Galway on the other. Motor cars are flying along and we, the farmers, are looking at them from the green fields and noting the amount of dust they create. Where is the justice in taxing people like us for the upkeep of roads used by people outside in that matter? I would suggest to the Minister for Local Government the necessity for having all main roads made a public charge and to differentiate between them and local taxation. Similarly I do not see why because a man owns a farm and a house, he should be obliged to pay for the upkeep of human derelicts of society and to the upkeep of hospitals here and there. These are all really matters for the State and not matters for local taxation. We have come to the position that unless there is some relief from this burden of taxation the farming industry will be driven to bankruptcy. It is on the general question of the incidence of local taxation that I am now speaking, and I hope the Minister will take these matters into account and especially the matters of the roads.
I desire to call attention to Item A under the special sub-head for salaries. I do not know what the higher grades are paid in these offices, but I have heard complaints made of the smallness of the allowances made to the under-grades, and that they are not paid a living wage in any of the offices run by the Government. I wish to refer particularly to the rate paid to shorthand-typists, who only receive something like £2, £2 2s., or £2 5s. per week. Most of these ladies are very highly educated; many of them come up from the country and have to take lodgings in hotels or other buildings, and I do not think that £2 per week, or £2 2s. 4d., is sufficient to carry them through, and I would like that this £11,000 of increase be applied to the relief of this class of worker. Another item to which I wish to call attention is that of the salaries of auditors and their travelling expenses. It is a fairly substantial sum—£20,000. I have some experience of local government, and, as far as my recollection serves me, I think I am right in saying that the local bodies pay for the auditing of their accounts. There is a taxed bill sent in to the different local bodies, and they have to pay for the auditing of their accounts, and I would like to know how this item of £20,000 arises.
I would like that the Minister would give us some information as to what progress has been made with the scheme for the amalgamation of Unions, and how many counties have adopted it, and, if so, whether it is working satisfactorily. Or if his Department is considering the setting up of a Commission of some description to formulate a national scheme. Otherwise, different counties will have their own pet schemes. Personally, I do not believe the amalgamation of Unions is going to be a success, but I think the whole question is very important, and should be looked into.
I would like to ask the Minister for Local Government, in reference to the provision for the housing of sailors and soldiers under the 1919 Act, what prospect is there of the early transfer of the functions administered under that Act. The Minister for Agriculture will remember he had communication from a number of persons in Meath with regard to the Trimblestown estate there, and there was considerable delay. It occurs to me there may be considerable delay in getting possession of the land for this purpose. Perhaps the Minister would say what prospect there is of an early transfer of the powers under that Act.
I would like to get some information with regard to the housing of the working classes. We heard statements from members of the medical profession as to their opinion about sanatorium treatment. As a layman, I am not in a position to give an opinion upon that; but whether sanatorium treatment is good or bad, if you take a patient from a slum, send him to a sanitorium, and, after treatment, send him back to live in a bad, insanitary house, the money you are spending on sanatorium treatment is absolutely wasted. The Ministry should concentrate upon seeing the people in the various cities and towns are housed under proper sanitary conditions. Sanatorium treatment is absolutely useless, unless people are provided with proper houses to live in. I take it, that the amount mentioned in the estimates is the sum that will be spent at the end of the financial year out of the one million grant made by the Provisional Government. I congratulate the Ministry on the step they took during this financial year in coming to the aid of the municipal authorities in providing this money. I hope they will be as generous in the coming year. I know we are living in very difficult times, and that it is difficult to look ahead, but the Ministry are well aware of the serious state of affairs in the towns and in the cities, and I hope they will concentrate upon the housing question. Since the beginning of 1914, owing to the cost of materials, and to the expense of building houses, the housing question was neglected. Things were bad in 1914 before the war started, but everybody will agree they are infinitely worse to-day, and I hope the Minister will pay special attention to the subject raised by Deputy Morrissey, in regard to the amalgamation of unions. I agree with the principle of amalgamation. It has been worked in Wexford, but some parts of the county are not in favour of it. I advocated it right through, but I think the time has arrived when a commission ought to be set up to ascertain what exactly it is that the country wants in this direction. It is quite true that various pet schemes are being put forward. People form a kind of village pump idea, and raise questions as to where the village hospitals and the county home should be situated. A commission should be appointed to find out the best possible centres, so that the whole matter should receive the attention it deserves. While some people resent the interference of the Ministry, I think it is absolutely necessary that the Ministry should interfere in matters of this kind. There is another item dealing with the grant of the provision of meals for children. Personally, I am sorry to see a decrease under that head, considering the economic conditions in the country to-day, and the great amount of unemployment. The personnel of the Boards for the past two or three years is not the same as it was when the Necessitous Children Act was first placed before them, and they did not take advantage of it at that time, but if the matter was placed before them again, it would enable the Boards to do something for the unfortunate poor children whose parents are unemployed.
I would like to ask how the amalgamation scheme has gone on in Cork County. While I am in thorough sympathy with the scheme, I think there are many details in it worth amending. In connection with that I have sent in recommendations to the Minister who, I hope, is dealing with them. With regard to the reinstatement of a nurse, a reinstatement has been ordered by the Minister some time ago—in last June or July— and which, according to my information, has not been carried out. I wonder why the orders of the Minister were disregarded by the Vice-Guardians in this matter.
The question that Deputy Day touched upon is one of considerable interest, and would deserve a reasoned statement from the Minister. I do not refer specially to the case which he mentioned, because I know nothing about it, but I do ask for information as to the experience of the Ministry with regard to this very important experiment of the substitution of the Guardians' authority by the appointment of Vice-Guardians in the case of Cork, and Super-Guardians in other cases. It is to me quite a possibility that the experiment may have proved perfectly successful— that this very large administrative body for such an institution as a Board of Guardians is not satisfactory. I do not know, and I am not coming down on any particular side, but it is of very great importance to know what the Ministry thinks of the general principle, and of the application of that principle, as in Cork and Dublin. It is of very great importance to the future of local government to know whether the experiment of practically abolishing the local authority, and putting in the place of that local authority certain Commissioners with almost autocratic powers, has resulted in better administration, not merely a saving of the rates, but greater economy in the true sense. I think the Dáil and the country would appreciate a full statement from the Minister on that particular item. Questions that were raised by Deputy Sir James Craig have been answered in a way I expected, but I would hope and urge upon the Ministry that they should carry out the suggestion that at least for the coming year, and perhaps for the concluding part of the present financial year, the Ministry should stimulate the local authorities to put into operation those particular Acts which apparently they have neglected. After all, the local authorities are apt very often to be negligent of their opportunities when there is a risk, as there is at the present time, of increasing the rates or failure to reduce them. But here there is a positive need for action, and that action ought to be stimulated by a central authority. A good deal has been said about tuberculosis and the value of sanatoria treatment, and also on the need for good homes. I just want to put in one word which too often is forgotten, and I am somewhat of a heretic on this question. I want to say that the primary need in the great majority of cases is good food and plenty of it. And perhaps Deputy Wilson will appreciate the point when I say that if there were three times the quantity of new milk consumed by the children of Ireland as is and has been, there would be very much less tuberculosis, and my treatment of tuberculosis in its early stages, and even in its middle stages, is plenty of milk, plenty of eggs, and plenty of beef steak.
And butter.
And butter.
A Chinn Chomhairle, there is a point in what Deputy Wilson said in reference to the roads. Of course there are grants for road expenditure, and that question is one that must come under consideration in connection with the general reforms of local government—the scheme which must come up before this Dáil within a year or less. Amalgamation schemes have been carried out in all counties but three, and the Ministry is very satisfied that the principle of amalgamation has justified itself. It will be necessary to work towards a standard scheme, and, as soon as possible, that work will be taken in hand. The Bill which is in preparation at the present time for presentation to the Dáil is merely a Bill to legalise what has already been done and to permit of certain smaller consequential changes.
The Cork amalgamation scheme has not gone very far, and I agree with Deputy Day that it has failed in several respects. So far as Nurse Dean is concerned, I have nothing further to add to what I said recently in reply to the Deputy. As regards the system of appointing Vice-Guardians or Commissioners, that has been given no fair trial under normal conditions. Under the conditions under which it was tried it was very successful indeed. Large economies were effected and increased efficiency was secured. Whether when the abuses which had grown up for a period of years under the ordinary system of administration had been swept away, it would be found that Commissioners or Vice-Guardians could do good work, is a matter which certainly remains to be seen. The various Vice-Guardians who entered into power did so at the time when institutions had not been too well conducted, and there was a great deal of work for them to do, and work which they were very well able to do and did exceedingly well. They were appointed, of course, to do work of officials that already existed, and, as a matter of fact, we have a Commissioner and Vice-Guardians along with the old officials. We have two sets of people actually doing, or supposed to be doing, the same work, and if we were to appoint a small number of officials or a single official in a particular workhouse, charged with the entire supervision and given full powers in the way that these Vice-Guardians were given, we would have to go into the matter with a view to devising a suitable scheme for carrying on that experiment under somewhat normal conditions, because, of course, what were people to do when these experiments were starting? They could not very well be done at the present time, especially when the big growth of laxity, and perhaps abuse, which they found in the beginning had already been swept away. Deputy Lyons spoke about the proceeds of the motor tax. The unfortunate fact is that up to quite recently no collections practically had taken place. It is now going on, and we hope it will improve. Deputy F. McGuinness referred to the increase in Item A—"Salaries, Wages and Allowances." Now that increase is due to the amalgamation of the old Local Government staff and the Dáil Local Government staff. Previously they appeared on separate Estimates, presented to separate houses. It does not mean that the actual number of people engaged in the work of the Local Government Department has increased. In point of fact it has actually decreased, because a large number of the people whose salaries appeared in this Estimate are at present on loan to other Departments. For instance, about 40 have been lent out since the 1st April to various other Departments, including Home Affairs and Board of Works, one or two to the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, and 10 to the Army, who are engaged in dealing with dependants' allowances; another 35 are on loan doing work in connection with the Soldiers and Sailors Act. Of course their salaries will be refunded by the British Government, so that there are actually about 75 of the Staff of the Department on loan with other Departments, and if this were a nett amount there would actually be a decrease in the amount of salaries, wages and allowances. An increase of salaries of auditors arises in the same way. There were a set of auditors under the Dáil Department and a set of auditors under the old Board. Some of the men who were auditors under the old Board have been transferred to other work. One or two of them have been sent out as auditors again, and there are one or two whom I expect will go. A few of the officials of the old Board have gone, and I think perhaps others will have to go, as they cannot very well be made use of under the existing conditions. But it is extremely undesirable to discharge Civil Servants, especially if they get 17 added years and a very considerable pension for doing nothing. Unless a Civil Servant cannot have an analogous position, or cannot be used in the work of his Department, I think it is most undesirable to burden the taxpayers with a swollen pension list.
That is not exactly my point. There is a sum of £18,000 voted to auditors.
I am coming to that. The amount that is charged to local bodies is only a trivial part of the expenses, and in any case the amount expended on salaries will appear here, even if the entire amount is made up under the head "Appropriations in Aid." In regard to the question of this soldiers and sailors business, the land-acquiring power will, of course, be dealt with under the Land Commission. As regards the housing, as Deputies may have seen, under the Consequential Provisions Bill, which is going through the British House of Commons, a Corporation has to be created under the title, "Soldiers and Sailors' Trust," and it will be given a grant of one million pounds by the British Government. It will do the best it can for them, but, of course, there will be no responsibility on our part.
These others were in connection with the land.
I have no information. The Minister for Agriculture will deal with it. I do not think it is necessary to emphasise what was said by Deputy Davin and the Minister for Home Affairs with regard to rate collection. Undoubtedly the failure to pay rates is a very serious matter, and is very much against the interests of the State, and the interest of the whole community, and the people who deliberately take advantage of the present conditions to withhold their rates, to upset the administration of local affairs, to in some cases prevent the adequate relief of destitution, and who cause the unemployment that must be caused by the failure of the funds of the local bodies are undoubtedly acting criminally. We have taken steps to put pressure to bear on the most notable defaulters in the various areas. Up to the present the situation was not such that the Army could be asked to assist, but we are now arriving at a time, especially with the establishment of the courts and the sending out of the Civic Guard, when we will be able to proceed and have the protection that is necessary. I will certainly apply where necessary to the Minister for Defence for military protection for the collection of rates in all areas. There are certain districts in the country where the behaviour of some of the ratepayers has been scandalous. I know of counties where in the poorer districts the rates have been well paid up, and in the rich parts the rates have not been paid at all. Now, in these cases we certainly are going to use the powers we have to see that the rates are paid. The matter even goes farther than failure to pay rates. In one county at least it has been impossible for a very long period to get together a meeting of the County Council or any of its committees, and I feel after the Constitution comes into operation, it will be necessary for me to ask powers from the Dáil to appoint a Commissioner, or a body of Commissioners, to carry on the work of the County Council. At the present time the money is being paid out, and it has to be paid to enable the County Home to carry on, and also for wages. That is being done by the Treasurer on the instructions of the Ministry of Local Government, without being passed by anyone on the part of the County Council. That indicates that in that case there is a serious lack of any feeling of any civic responsibility, and that lack of civic responsibility and that shirking of one's ordinary duty is another manifestation of the struggle that is going on, to get something for nothing, or to hold on to something that should not be held on to, and it must ultimately be dealt with in the way that any manifestation of irregularism would be dealt with. As far as I am concerned, and as far as the Government generally is concerned, the people who should pay their rates, and who do not want to pay, will be made pay, and they will not escape in any way whatever, but will only suffer themselves if they drive us to go to greater extremes in the matter than we would otherwise go to.
The Minister mentioned the great saving that had been made by the Vice-Guardians by their administration. I maintain that saving has been made at the expense of the poor, who are under their care, and in connection with that, I may point out that one of the nuns, a nursing sister in the hospital complained that she could not even get coal in one instance to boil a kettle for some patients in the hospital or milk for patients in the fever hospital. That nun got a coal supply from money that she got from the doctors to preserve the lives of the patients. And for doing that and refusal to tell these Vice-Guardians where she had got the money she was sent back to the Matron. I sent the Minister for Local Government a copy of the correspondence sent to the Vice-Guardians in that case. Another thing, since these Vice-Guardians took up control the work of looking after the buildings has not been attended to, and they are being allowed to deteriorate, with the result that where there is an apparent saving the Guardians will be faced later on with the duty of replenishing stores and repairing buildings. Another matter I would like the Minister to take note of is that the dietary scale has been lowered for the inmates both in the hospitals and workhouses generally, and in a good many cases where the inmates were getting Irish pigs' heads they have been supplied with Danish pigs' heads, with the result that the amount of meat they are getting is less in quality and less in quantity. They have gone to the extent of importing foreign matches to effect a saving! Another thing I wrote to the Minister about was that the Vice-Guardians had a subsidiary account with the Bank, of which the Guardians knew nothing. In one case at a meeting of Cork Chamber of Commerce the proposer of a resolution to carry on the Vice-Guardians in their position is a partner in a firm who supplied ten tons of butter to the Workhouse at a cost of over £2,000. This was done without advertisement or competition. The Vice-Guardians tried to conceal it from the Board of Guardians by making the payment from a private account as that account would not appear in the monthly list. At a meeting of the Board of Guardians last week, as a cutting from the Press will show, the firm offered to refund £200.
On a point of order I think the Deputy is wandering very far indeed from the Local Government vote. I mean, we can discuss Cork Vice-Guardians at very considerable length, but I do think it is out of order to discuss it in the way he is doing it.
The Minister has shown that there has been a great saving effected by the Vice-Guardians and I am trying to show the Dáil how that saving was effected. Now I say the saving was effected at the expense of the poor and that these Vice-Guardians put in with plenary powers should never have got the powers that they did get. It proves from the case I put the type of men they are. I say men of that type should not be put into such a position without having, at all events, some sort of a Finance Committee or other party over them to check them, and I am sure the Minister will see that men of this type are not again put in, and that the poor, who cannot protect themselves, will be protected from this class of men.
I do not want to discuss the thing very much. I know nothing about the Vice-Guardians beyond what is reported. I do not want to say that everything they did was perfect, or that they did not go wrong in some cases. Nor I do not in fact want to take up that controversy at all with Deputy Day. I have said what I have said in regard to that. I can say, however, that the position of the Vice-Guardians in Cork is one which could not have been sanctioned in normal times. They are not Vice-Guardians in the legal sense, and one of them is in fact a member of the Board of Guardians and also a paid official. The whole thing arose in the strenuous, difficult times that we passed through a year or two ago. The appointment could not have been made in normal times. It is not one that could be continued for any great length of time. If there are to be such officials with such powers they would have to be appointed in some regular way and their status will have to be defined.
I shall answer Deputy Shannon's questions on the Land Commission Estimates, which will be before the Dáil soon.
Motion made and question put: "That the Dáil in Committee, having considered the Estimate for the Ministry of Local Government in 1922-23, and having passed a Vote on Account of £500,000 for the period to the 6th December, 1922, recommend the full Estimate of £868,428 for the financial year 1922-23 be adopted in due course by the Oireachtas."
Agreed.