Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Monday, 28 May 1923

Vol. 3 No. 17

OIREACHTAS (PAYMENT OF MEMBERS) BILL, 1923. - FOURTH STAGE.

The PRESIDENT

I beg to move the Report Stage of the Oireachtas (Payment of Members) Bill.

Amendment byMr. E. DUGGAN:—

"In Section 2, Sub-section (2), lines 47 and 48, page 2, to delete the words:—

`(f) Minister whether a member or not a member of the Executive Council,' and to insert in lieu thereof the words:—

`(f) Any office the tenure of which is dependent on the President of the Executive Council retaining the support of a majority in Dáil Eireann.'

`(g) Any office the tenure of which is dependent on the term of existence of a particular Dáil Eireann."

Mr. DUGGAN

I move Amendment No. 1. In the Committee Stage the point was raised that Section 2, Sub-section (2) would not cover Assistant Ministers or Parliamentary Secretaries. The two clauses proposed in the amendment to be inserted in lieu of Clause (f) are intended to cover every Ministerial office.

Mr. JOHNSON

The only comment I have to make on this amendment is that it seems to me a rather clumsy way of expressing an idea, "Any office the tenure of which is dependent on the President or the Executive Council retaining the support of a majority in Dáil Eireann." I take it that the intention is that any member of the Ministry, and also others besides members of the Ministry, might be appointed, and if appointed would be subject to this Clause. I suppose the amendment has been fully considered and that the meaning is perhaps understandable, provided nothing was intended beyond what was expressed in the first draft presented. It is only intended to mean that these sub-clauses (f) and (g) cover Ministers whether the Ministers are members of the Executive Council or Ministers who are not members of the Executive Council, and other officials that may be appointed who are members of the Dáil? It is not intended to cover anybody outside the Dáil?

The PRESIDENT

Only members of the Dáil, of course. Under the Constitution the members must be paid, and the idea I think the Deputy had in mind was that a Minister or an Assistant Minister in receipt of salary as such should not also be entitled to be paid as a member of the Oireachtas, as laid down in the Constitution. It is to provide for that we have put in this, which involves all persons who would occupy any position not specified.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. DUGGAN

I move: "In Section (5), Sub-section (1), lines 36 and 37, page 3, to delete the words: cause which in the opinion of the Minister for Finance was,' and to insert after the word `innocent,' line 37, the word `cause.' " In the Bill, as drafted, the responsibility lay on the Minister for Finance to decide whether or not a member had not good cause for not taking the Oath. In the Committee Stage it was suggested that the proper officer should be An Ceann Comhairle in the Dáil, and An Cathaoirleach in the Seanad, and the object of this amendment is to meet that view.

The PRESIDENT

It puts the executive or judicial onus on you, sir.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I am in the position that I was not consulted when the Bill was being drafted, and I was not consulted by the people who moved the amendment. I have an opinion on the matter myself, but I do not know whether it would be of interest.

The PRESIDENT

I think you ought to give us your reasons for your attitude.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The amendment would at least have the effect of preventing the Minister for Finance and the Ceann Comhairle from disagreeing in public.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. DUGGAN

I move: "In Section 5, Sub-section (2), lines 46 and 47, to delete the words: `cause which in the opinion of the Minister for Finance is, and to insert after the word `innocent, line 47, the word `cause.' " This is identical with No. 2.

Amendment agreed to.

Question proposed: "That the Bill, as amended, be received for final considertion."

Mr. DAVIN

The President on the last occasion promised to go into the question of travelling facilities and to ascertain, I presume from the responsible authorities, whether or not anything in the nature of season tickets would be granted to members. I want to know from him, if he is aware whether or not representations have been made to the Irish Railway Clearing House by the Transport Department of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, or by any person connected with the Ministry of Finance regarding the question of season tickets, and if so, with what result.

The PRESIDENT

No; I am not aware. I was looking into the question, and I am not in a position to give any further information on the subject just now. It was our information recently that the season tickets would be more expensive. Now we are not in a position to say to what extent we would be able to use Railway vouchers; that is the Dáil is composed, I suppose, of about only sixty active members. I should say that when the elections have taken place, and the numbers are enlarged, that we will be in a better position to deal with that question. In any case it is only by negotiation that we can do it. I would not think that the Dáil would agree to having legislation introduced to deal with a matter of that sort. I do not think it would be right, and there is no reason why it should be done in regard to that, any more than any other case, so that it would be a business arrangement, as there are some negotiations, I believe, pending at the moment dealing with the matter. When they are completed I will let the members know.

Mr. DAVIN

I did not suggest that, but I think that anything in the nature of better facilities for members that would cost Parliament less should be discussed.

The PRESIDENT

That is a matter I am considering.

Mr. DAVIN

I would like if the President would furnish the grounds on which it is presumed that season tickets would be more costly to the Government than the arrangement now in operation. It is customary, as members know, for cattle traders who have to pay visits to Dublin once a week to get season tickets, As far as I am aware, a season ticket is less costly to the cattle trader than if he paid his fare in the ordinary way. I refuse to believe, until it is proved otherwise, that a season ticket is more costly. We all know a season ticket would be more advantageous to members. Members start off on a journey from Dublin with the intention of stopping at one particular point in their constituency, and probably when they get there they are requested to go somewhere else. If I thought it was going to cost the State anything more I would not press this question of season tickets. I think we are entitled to say to the Departments of the Government concerned, the Transport Department, to make some sort of representation to the Railway authorities for a concession of this kind. I would urge the Minister to instruct that particular Department to make representations on the line I have mentioned.

Mr. P. HUGHES

I would suggest that the Minister should make arrangements with the Railway Companies. I do not think that the Railway Companies would be giving anything to the Government that they are not giving to other people in a matter of this kind. I chance to know that by the system in vogue the Government is losing rather than gaining money. If a Deputy wanted to go home now on a Saturday and come back on Monday he pays a full fare. He will not get the Saturday to Monday ticket on the voucher he gets, and the Government is under no compliment whatever to the railway companies for the amount of traffic and money they are giving them to get a season ticket for any Deputy of this Dáil or any officer of the Dáil. I do know that the price of a second class ticket for a certain gentleman travelling on all trains between my town and Dublin is 24/7 per week. The holder of the ticket can travel up and down as often as he likes between these two points. When I get a ticket it costs more to bring me up and down once. I cannot get the benefit of a week-end ticket Therefore I think the Government ought to take the matter up and see that the railway companies gives them the same justice as they do to ordinary commercial people.

Question put: "That the Bill as amended be received for final consideration."

Agreed.

The PRESIDENT

If there is no objection the next stage could be taken now. I move the suspension of the Orders of the Day so as to take the next stage.

Question put and agreed to.

Motion made and question put: "That the Bill do now pass."

Agreed.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

This is a Money Resolution within the meaning of Article 35 of the Constitution.