I do not want to raise unnecessarily a point that I raised once before, but I think it would materially assist if one could discover in a case of this kind where Estimates are set down before the Committee Stage of subsequent Bills on the Orders of the Day, the number of Estimates that it is proposed to take on that day, and that can be got through. It is a little awkward and a little confusing in a way that is very obvious. Could it be ascertained how many Estimates are to be taken to-day after the Army Estimates, if that could be disposed of to-day? I am sorry I am putting the matter in so many subjunctives.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES (ARMY).
There is always a difficulty in arranging the time-table where the closure is not introduced, and we have not introduced the closure from the beginning. We can get no information from Deputies as to how long a particular Estimate is going to take, and consequently a time-table is almost impossible. I do not think it is likely that any other Estimate will be taken this evening but the Army Estimate, and the Estimates will be taken in the order that I have indicated, with the exception that I should say that for two or three days we do not intend to take any more Estimates concerning the Ministry of Education; otherwise the list would stand as we have given it. I do not intend now to take any other Estimate this evening but the Army Estimate, and to get on with the other item on the agenda, No. 4. If Deputies think it would be possible to arrange, in some way or other, whereby the time-table could be arranged, I am also willing to agree, but I do not want to introduce the closure.
I ventured to throw out a suggestion the other day which the Minister did not hear. I do not think he was in the Dáil at the time. I think we all appreciate the courtesy that has been shown in the reluctance displayed to impose any kind of closure, and it would be a very bad thing to adopt in any way. But supposing procedure of this kind were to be adopted— that the Minister for Finance were to say that the following Estimates are down on the Order Paper for such a date, and we will not take any more, not talking in the positive but more in the negative form—a Deputy, if he would not know all the matters that were going to arise that day, would easily know certain Estimates that would not be taken on that day.
I will consider that, and see if it is possible to give it effect.
It was arranged on Friday that the Army Estimates would be taken first to-day. I assumed that no other Estimate would arise. The suggestion was adopted to go down through the sub-heads, and we had a sub-head "K." Under "L" and under the succeeding sub-heads the question of Contracts was raised, in so far as from "L" down to "S," inclusive, might be taken as concerned with the question of contracts. The Committee was discussing the general question of contracts last day before progress was reported.
I have been asked to draw the attention of the Minister to a case of which I have given him warning —a contract for Army mattresses—and I invite him to make an explanation. The information that has been handed to me by responsible people is that a contract for something like 20,000 mattresses was given to a firm named Hampton, in London, and that no Irish mattress-makers were given an opportunity to quote. That is an extraordinary statement to make, and if it is correct, it cannot be defended, I think, in view of the fact that mattress-makers in Ireland are capable of turning out quite considerable quantities. The bulk of the cost of 20,000 mattresses—almost the whole of it—would be spent in the country in raw material and the manufacture of the mattresses themselves, and it is alleged that unless something quite abnormal that cannot be understood by those in the trade has occurred, Irish makers would have been able to quote at the price which it is reputed that this contract has been given away. I merely state the bald story as it has been handed to me, as I say, by reputable people. What ground they have for the story I cannot tell. I do not pretend to back it with any personal knowledge, but the evidence is that a sufficiently large quantity of mattresses are being made in London to warrant the makers in getting specially printed labels addressed to the "Quartermaster-General, Stores Department, Island Bridge, Dublin. 10 mattresses, etc." I think that is one of the cases which would warrant a full explanation, even if only to satisfy the men and women who are dependent upon this occupation for a livelihood and are now walking the streets of Dublin.
Before the Minister replies, I should like to say a word with reference to the question of mattresses. I am speaking now from memory. Deputy Johnson has raised the question as to why these mattresses were not made in Dublin. I will give him my experience of the Local Government Purchasing Department with regard to Dublin-made mattresses. The Department sent out tender forms, I think, to twelve or fifteen different firms. The mattresses were for a particular type of bed, and the Local Government Department received back completed tenders from the twelve or fifteen different firms, and every tender was at the same price, a very remarkable coincidence. The Local Government Department was not satisfied that the tenders were fair, and it proceeded to make investigations in other quarters, and found that elsewhere mattresses at a more satisfactory price, and perhaps of a somewhat better make and material, could be procured within the Saorstát— a limited number, sufficient, however, for Local Government purposes—but there was evidence of a ring in the question of prices, at least when the Local Government Department took up the matter.
Would the Deputy who has answered for the Minister for Industry and Commerce say whether the firms which were able to secure these Local Government Department contracts were asked to tender for this Army contract, did they tender, and what was the difference in price of their tender and the Army contract?
I have no information on that matter that I can give the Deputy, I am sorry to say.
The point is, are we to take it that the refusal to ask Irish makers to tender was in the nature of a punishment for their offence in forming a ring?
Certainly not.
These mattresses form portion of the purchase that I spoke of on Friday last. We had to make purchases of a very large quantity, and required them inside a very brief time, in the situation that we visualised in the spring. As I pointed out on Friday, faced with the problem of making large purchases of material and getting them by a certain time, we made use of the machinery that would have been British war machinery—at least we used the British War Office machinery to put us in touch with machinery that would produce large quantities in the minimum space of time. The material we got at that time included 50,000 mattresses. These mattresses were of a special Army folding type, suitable for our particular use. We got them at the rate of 10s. 3d. per mattress, and the previous price we had been paying for mattresses was 13s. The order was placed outside of the country only because of the special circumstances attending that purchase. Actually we have purchased from Irish firms, since May, 1922, approximately 52,000 mattresses both for the Army and for prisons.
Does the 13s. you quoted apply to the 52,000 mattresses?
Yes, it was the price we were paying previously. In some cases the price was 14s.
Is it a fact that some of the 50,000 mattresses purchased are still coming forward?
There are some mattresses of that 50,000 still coming forward.
Is the delivery nearly completed?
I think it is. It was a rush job, and there cannot be much of it hanging out now. I may say also that at that particular time most of the mattress-making people in Ireland were engaged in orders for us.
On Friday I gave an instance in the Dáil dealing with this very matter, rather to indicate the difficulties of dealing with it from the point of view of inquiry than any other point of view, and the Minister, in replying, went out of his way to utter certain criticisms of one's procedure in the matter. He practically suggested that, though I was fully aware that the person who made the complaint to me did not wish anything to be done to cause his name to be revealed, that, nevertheless, I should have taken such action as would have caused the revelation of that name.
Not necessarily.
It would have implied the revelation of that name. What I have to say is that in a matter of that kind the Minister has one notion as to what is the correct procedure, and that I do not share it with him. I only mention that instance in order to indicate the difficulty that this matter implied. Therefore, I proceed to ask for certain further information than I am aware this Dáil has at the present moment. I do not recall that in his reply the Minister was good enough to furnish that information, and I desire to press for it now. Broadly, it comes under two heads. The information as to the first can be elicited by a question in this form: Is there one body, committee, or otherwise, responsible for the giving of contracts, civil and military, who that body is, by whom appointed, and what is the procedure adopted by that body in regard to the getting of tenders, and the decision as to which of those tenders shall be accepted? The second devolves from the first, and the information in that regard might be elicited in answer to this question. If the procedure is such that no contractor can get into touch with any person who is the deciding factor as to who is going to get that contract, if we can get satisfactory assurances upon these matters, I think all the other complaints that we receive —whether we should act upon these complaints, and whether we should take steps to reveal the identity of the people who make these complaints, whether those persons desire that that identity should be revealed or not—all these can be dispensed with. I think that information should be given to this Dáil and the country in answer to those two fundamental matters, and I desire, now, to repeat my questions and to urge the Minister to reply to them.
There is a Central Government Contracts Committee, and, as I say, when we suggested from the Army that that Committee should be set up the idea was that, if possible, it should be a separate Department. In its present stage it is not a separate Department. It is made up of representatives from different buying departments of the Government, but it acts as a whole, and it has laid down lines as to which particular one of those buying Departments shall be the contracting machinery, or shall be the machinery for getting tenders for certain specific classes of goods, and the different classes of materials bought by Government Departments are divided up among those Departments. No buying is done outside of the main machinery of those buying Departments, except in accordance with certain definite regulations laid down by it. The Army is not a buying Department, that is, there was no existing and tried machinery attached to the Army for obtaining tenders and making purchases, but there are certain matters in which the Army has to be a buying Department through the Quartermasters throughout the country, and practically the only materials that are bought by the Army are the food bought locally or materials, such as building materials, in certain circumstances in which they have to buy small lots of building materials for maintenance. With the exception of these items, as far as my recollection goes, the Army does not do any buying. As far as the buying that is done by the Army is concerned it is done after the receipt of tenders, whether they are tenders for a month or two months, for matters of food and that, but they are properly contracted for, and as far as it is possible to keep out of the way of contractors, the contractors have not access to persons who have the accepting of contracts. As far as contracts entered into by Dublin Headquarters would be concerned the Quartermaster-General would be the person who would have to accept the contract. As far as contracts are entered into locally they have to be accepted by the Quartermaster of the battalion in that particular area; and as far as contracts entered into there are concerned the price lists in respect of contracts made locally are submitted here to Headquarters regularly as contracts are made and a check is kept over the prices of such purchasing locally from Headquarters here.
Arising out of the answer given by the Minister the two essential matters in this connection inevitably are: personnel of such a Contracts Committee and the nature of the regulations to which the Minister refers. I presume that the Committee to which he refers in the disposal of contracts disposes of those contracts as a Committee, and therefore I am a little puzzled to reconcile that with the statement which I took down from him in his own words, that the Quartermaster-General will have the acceptance of a contract. Perhaps it is my misunderstanding, but I fail quite to see how the Quartermaster-General would have the acceptance of a contract if the contract has been given by a Committee, and I would like to have that misunderstanding, if there be any in my mind, cleared up. Primarily I would like to get further information—I think it is right that this Dáil should have further information—as to who constitutes this Committee and what the personnel is, and if we can have given to us—if not available to-day, at some later date—and laid on the table of this Dáil the regulations to which he refers that have been drawn up by this Committee, in order that the Dáil may know exactly the regulations on which this Committee is proceeding.
I think if we had full information of the kind that I am now requesting, it would be the most satisfactory method of ceasing, or causing to cease, a great many of the complaints made—no doubt made with great injustice—but that inevitably must be made owing to the lack of such full information as I am desiring should be given to the Dáil.
I thought I made myself clear when I spoke of the Quartermaster's establishment, and the Quartermaster-General, that when dealing with any purchases, he was dealing with purchases properly delegated to him by the Contracts Committee. On the matter of the personnel of the Contracts Committee I cannot undertake to give that information right off, but I submit that it does not bear any more relation to a discussion on the Army Estimates than does the question of the personnel of any other particular branch of the financial machinery of the Government.
The point I suggest is that it does not bear any less than to any other order.
If we are taking up the Estimates as far as sub-head S, I would like to ask the Minister if he could make any statement dealing with one or two of the captains in charge of the vessels, and as to what are their qualifications. I have been informed that one man aged 70 years was appointed to take control of one vessel on coastal defence work, or in connection with which provision is made in the Estimates. I think that any man drawing a pension from another service, merchant or otherwise, and aged 70, is unfit to hold any position of this kind. I have also been informed that some at any rate of those who hold these positions have no qualifications whatever, so far as seagoing service is concerned. I would like to have an assurance from the Minister that so far as future appointments are concerned, qualifications necessary for the merchant service or any other naval department will be adhered to in cases of this kind.
Before the Minister replies I wish to say as this is a new question altogether apart from contracts, and bearing specially on sub-head S, if we are going into it now we definitely come down as far as Sub-head S, and exclude matters of detail that go before it.
I cannot say if the captain of any of the vessels is 70 years of age, and I have doubts if there is such a case, considering the people who are responsible for certifying as to qualifications.
I would like to correct myself if I created a wrong impression. I said that one man was appointed. I understand that the services of a number of men have been dispensed with. I can give the Minister the name if he wishes to prove that the statement is correct.
I will have the possibility of that borne in mind. In respect of men appointed in charge of the vessels, as far as their qualifications are concerned it, perhaps, depends on what is meant, exactly, by qualifications. As far as I am aware, with the exception of two members, the men in charge of any of these vessels have the necessary Board of Trade qualifications and the necessary certificates. With regard to two men who are in charge of these vessels, and have not these necessary certificates, both, I am given to understand, are men of twenty years' experience in charge of ships. They are men who have very practical qualifications, and are certified to have such. They are men, as I said, with twenty years' experience in charge of vessels, and men with whom we had very close connection in pre-Treaty days. The Dáil can be assured that careful check is kept of the qualifications of men whom we put in charge of Government vessels.
The reason I ask for the assurance as to the future was that I am quite certain that in most of the services a small number of men who rendered services in pre-Truce days must be absorbed in some form or other in Government employment by this time.
In connection with the selection of the crews of these vessels, I would like to draw attention to what happened in my constituency, where nine relations of a high officer of the State have been appointed. He even sent out to South Africa for a brother-in-law to come home to take over a job. One man, over 69 years of age, was appointed to one of those jobs to help another man to look after the boats coming into the harbour. Great dissatisfaction exists in the town because of the fact that a large number of men who hold home and foreign certificates and who served in the National forces for seven months and offered their services have been passed over by General Vize. This General selected General Furlong's relations for the jobs. I have a list here of eleven men who have already been appointed. I would ask the Minister if he is prepared to hold an inquiry into the method employed in making these appointments, and to see what service, if any, these men have ever rendered to the country. I, personally, could prove that not one of the eleven men appointed have either ability for the positions or have ever rendered any service in the National cause. I ask him especially to go into this matter, because I am certain that it was not with his permission that such things were allowed to take place. The Labour Union passed a resolution protesting against the finding of jobs for the members of one particular family. There were three men sent from the Union as representing the sailors, and as a reprisal General Vize dismissed these men who had been selected. He got a doctor to put a tape around their waists and got them dismissed as medically unfit. These three men have now been appointed to civilian work on the coast. It is well known throughout the country that this Navy is called after a certain county by reason of the fact that a number of men who have got employment on board the boats all belong to the native county of General Vize. This week, I believe, the last of the relations that could be found, third and fourth cousins, have got notice to report themselves in Portobello Barracks to-morrow. One of them, I believe, is a boy sixteen years of age, but that does not matter, as he is a second cousin of General Furlong's wife. That, of course, proves his ability for the position. We are in this position, that the men who have been passed over were prepared to go before any medical officer or any inspector who has a knowledge of seafaring: men who have rendered service to the National cause in pre-Truce days and to the National Army for the last seven months and who are better qualified and have better records for ability than those who have been appointed to the positions. I desire to protest strongly against the appointments, and I appeal to the Minister for Defence to make a special inquiry into these cases, because as one living in the town all my life I fail to agree with General Vize that only ability and fitness for the position exist in the family of General Furlong's friends.
I have listened with surprise to the statement of Deputy Everett. To my personal knowledge very many Wexford men made application for positions and were refused.
On a point of personal explanation, I desire to say that I never mentioned Wexford in my remarks.
Mr. DOYLE
I was not aware that General Vize had so many cousins in Wexford as Deputy Everett credits him with.
On a point of personal explanation, I desire to say that I did not mention General Vize's cousins. What I said was a friend of General Vize's.
Deputy Everett spoke about Wicklow all the time.
Mr. DOYLE
But did he not mention Wexford?
Deputy Everett did not mention Wexford. I have no objection to Wexford, but the Deputy did not say anything about Wexford.
Mr. DOYLE
I apologise, but I thought I heard Wexford mentioned. I fail, however to see where all these cousins come from. I have known myself that many of the people whom Deputy Everett designated as cousins of General Vize were dismissed from their positions recently. That, I think, is not showing a great preference for these cousins. I have no brief to defend General Vize, or any other person, but I know that when, on several occasions, I appealed for positions in this service for persons who come from General Vize's native county, I have been repeatedly refused.
They were not cousins.
I did not refer to General Vize's cousins in Wexford. I referred to friends of General Furlong's relations in Wicklow, and I can give the names if it is thought desirable. I have the list here and I will read it. There is the case of James Kavanagh, a tradesman, who was taken out of constant employment, and given a position.
I think it would be better if the names were not read.
I am afraid I have come without my ammunition on this subject, but I have heard of this before. At any rate, I have heard of the Wicklow men and the Wexford men who were supposed to be in the marine service, and I think there is nothing called for from me to say on the matter. I went into the matter before when it was stated that the men, who had been recruited for these positions from Wicklow or Wexford, were certain associates of the two persons named. My recollection of it is that out of a certain number of maritime counties in Ireland there were, I think, 10 persons from Wicklow and 24 persons from Wexford, out of a total of about 300 men, employed at the time in the service. The people in the service were drawn from pretty well all around the coast, and the greater number of them were drawn from Dublin and its neighbourhood.
I have very, very good grounds for having the greatest confidence in the ability and the integrity of the men who are in charge of this service, and when I went into the matter before, I was quite satisfied that there was nothing in it, and if any additional matter is put before me that I consider should be gone into and investigated, bearing the public interest very much in my mind, I will consider it my duty to investigate it.
Will the Minister take evidence from the local people, of the number of relations and friends of this particular gentleman when he is holding the investigation?
I take it the Minister for Defence will accept all the evidence that is brought before him.
Certainly, on any subject.
On the item dealing with compensation for damage or injury, I would like to draw attention to the fact that there is very proper complaint in some part of the country as to the delay in compensating people for damage done to commandeered motor cars, and I take it that comes under this particular Vote. There is another particular matter to which I would like to draw attention under this head, and I take it that it comes under it, and that is bicycles. Bicycles were commandeered in the early months of the trouble last year, and were never restored to their owners, nor was compensation paid for them. I have a number of instances that I brought under the notice of the Minister as to the seizure of bicycles in Ballinasloe and Galway area. These bicycles were seized last September or October on the plea that they were required for urgent purposes in connection with the formation of cycling corps. They were taken indiscriminately from people in that neighbourhood. It was explained that they would be returned shortly afterwards. They have never been returned. On one occasion some five or six workmen from Ballinasloe were informed that if they went to Galway they would get full information with regard to their bicycles and get them back. They went to Galway, at some inconvenience and expense, but they did not get their bicycles. As most of the people affected are workmen who use these bicycles to travel to and from their work, I should like that this matter should be cleared up. If the bicycles are kept back, and if they are no longer available, as is most likely, the owners should be compensated for the loss of their bicycles. The question of compensation for motor cars is also urgent— very urgent. Many people from whom these cars were taken were people who used the cars as a means of livelihood, by letting them out on hire to people who required them. They were themselves paying for these cars on the instalment system, and the taking of these cars has been the means, in some cases, and indeed in many cases, of depriving those persons who have no other property or funds whatsoever, of their means of making a livelihood by hiring out these cars. Many of these claims, outstanding since last year, have not been attended to, and the people concerned, although they sent in their applications on various occasions, and had even come up to Dublin to try and get payment, have still failed to get payment. There is certainly very great need to have this matter of compensations due for cars looked into.
I presume that under Item X—Miscellaneous Expenditure—a question might be raised with regard to one particular item of military expenditure.
We want to keep to Item U, until such time as it is disposed of.
I thought we had come to this particular item.
Are we to understand that under U, provision is made for compensation for damage to property commandeered for military purposes?
I think not. Does the amount of money under Sub-head U include compensation for damage to property commandeered by the military?
No; damage to property commandeered by the military will be paid for out of a Vote put up by the Board of Works.
Does this refer to personal injury?
As far as the Vote under sub-head (U) is concerned it is for ex gratia payments in respect of damages as result of traffic and shooting accidents and things like that. The compensation in respect of cars and bicycles comes under sub-head (K), Mechanical Transport. Under sub-head (K) provision has been made for that. I explained on Friday that the Committee for dealing with motor claims were dealing with those matters as fast as they possibly could, and I said that the nature of the work was such that the additional clerical help suggested might not, perhaps, overcome their difficulties, but that the matter will be investigated to see whether it would or not, and nothing would be left undone that would expedite the getting rid of those claims. Bicycles are being dealt with by the same Committee. It is found that quite large numbers of bicycles are not returnable and the claims will be met as claims and will be dealt with by this Committee.
On Friday last I drew the attention of the Minister to cases, in one of which a woman was killed by the military authorities in pre-Truce days. Within the last week or ten days a sum of £50 has been granted as compensation in connection with the case. I happened to meet the unfortunate widower on Saturday evening and he produced receipts to me to prove that the funeral and other expenses involved amounted to over £100. However, a claim in this case has been made for £1,000 compensation. As to the amount that should be allowed I am not going to be the judge, but I would like to know from the Minister whether or not he considers £50 a reasonable amount.
There is another case I have had in hands for a long time that has been referred to by means of starred questions and correspondence. It is a case where a young fellow was playing opposite the Barracks in Birr, running up and down. The sentry at the Barrack gate—I suppose by accident, because I will not assume it was by any other means—let a bullet go and it killed the youngster. In that case an amount of £10 has been granted. I suggest to the Minister, who is not a hard-hearted man, that amounts of that kind in such circumstances are ridiculous. I would like to know from him if he has made any enquiries as to the course of action that could be followed by individuals who accept those amounts under protest. Is there any right of appeal, so that the cases can be heard in the Civil Courts?
All these cases are dealt with on their merits, and on the facts as they occur, and the Minister is not the judge in the matter as to the amount to be awarded. If there is any appeal in either of the two particular cases, that appeal can be addressed to me, and I will have it forwarded to the proper quarter.
Sub-head (V) refers to the Railway Protection, Repair and Maintenance Corps. The Vote is for £1,000,000, an increase of one million over 1922-1923. I think some explanation is needed in respect to this Vote. We believe that a large proportion of the damage that was done last year was repaired last year, and, though it must have been paid for out of some money voted last year, one would like to know whether this one million pounds is for expenditure that will be required during 1923-1924 by this Corps. Perhaps the Minister would give us some figures as to the numbers of the Corps at present, whether it is an increasing or a decreasing number, how long it is likely to remain in being, and whether the work of repair to roads and bridges is to continue to be done by this Corps or otherwise. I just ask for enlightenment on this matter as a matter of general interest and, I think, of some importance.
Will the Minister also tell us what items of labour and other things are covered by the million pounds—what type of things go to make up that amount?
I think whatever other Estimates we might criticise, there is no need for us to criticise this particular one. We must remember that while this criminal conspiracy against the State was in operation since last June, the main attack was directed to the Railways, the arteries of the country. We all know fairly well that if the Railways could not function, the State could not function. It was necessary to get the Railway Protection, Repair and Maintenance Corps. The Government was very fortunate in securing the services of such very able, competent and fully-qualified experts and engineers, persons such as Col.-Commandant Russell and his officers. They have done Trojan work for the country, work which we must all appreciate. In fact, I do not think we can too fully appreciate the work that they have done.
We have seen day by day how these men worked, and not only day by day but night by night, to maintain the services from Dublin to Cork, and from Cork to Skibbereen, and from Limerick to Killarney, and how, right down to the wilds of Cork and Kerry where the fighting was intense, and where every bridge and gully was being mined and destroyed, these men continued to carry out their duties. We cannot realise the difficulties under which that particular corps was operating, and I do not think that we have any occasion to criticise them. I heard recently, but it may be only just a rumour, that there was some talk of disbanding this particular corps. I do not think it would be prudent at the moment to disband this corps until, at all events, we are satisfied that without them we can protect our railways and bridges, and keep our train services operating. Further, I think it would be absolutely necessary to keep all those soldiers in that particular corps until such time as we are able to train and fit them for some other employment. Until that employment is there, under the very able guidance and tuition of these highly qualified officers to whom I have referred, they would be in very safe hands, and I think they would receive from these officers the training that would fit them for their future livelihood.
May I say that Deputy Hennessy is not alone in his admiration of the work that was done, and is not alone in his praise of the work done, and the work that may still have to be done by the Railway Maintenance Corps. The desire for information is not to be taken as a denial of credit to the Railway Maintenance Corps.
On a point of explanation, I wish to say that I did not wish to convey the impression that Deputy Johnson suggests.
It was very like it.
There is another thing which he does not take into consideration, a matter of which the Minister is aware, and that is that this corps is recruited from railwaymen, many of whom could go back to their old occupations according as the service becomes normal. They can go back to their ordinary employment. That is a thing that can be done as soon as the Minister, who has a greater knowledge of the situation in the country than we have, thinks it desirable to do so.
On the latter point, it will be remembered that the nucleus around which the corps grew was a nucleus of railwaymen whom the smashing of the railways deprived of their employment. We took these men and made them the nucleus around which this very valuable corps has grown. The whole process of development of this corps has been such that when the corps achieved its end the railwaymen in it were gradually withdrawn and were able to go back to their ordinary railway work. With regard to the railwaymen who are in the Corps, the intention is that when in the equilibrium of things they are required for service in actual railway work we will be prepared to release them for that railway work. The Vote as it stands provides for the keeping of 5,000 men in employment on the work of railway protection, and in the work of repairing the bridges that may be necessary to have repaired by these men. It is not contemplated, with safety, that the railway lines can be left unprotected, or unwatched, or uncovered by some such force as this. However, so far as disbanding is concerned, there is no immediate prospect of the disbanding of these forces. At the present moment this corps is controlled as a separate Corps operating here from General Headquarters. It may be possible as things develop to adopt a different type of control, and the different sections of the Railway Corps may have to be linked to the Commands in the particular area in which they work. But as regards changing the lie-out of the Corps and its general organisation, no drastic change is taking place in it, nor is it contemplated at the moment. There will be a gradual passing from the position in which we have this Railway Corps to the position in which you leave some men back to their work, some of them attached to the Commands in the areas in which they are at present, and others taken away to form what will be our Engineering Service. There are three services at present operating as separate services—our Railway Corps, our Works Corps, and our Salvage Corps, and we anticipate that what we call the best elements of these Corps will form our Engineering Corps, and will give us our Engineering Command here. We will have very excellent material to control and organise the Engineering Staff of the Army from the men who have distinguished themselves so much on the work of the three Corps, particularly the Railway Corps. We have the satisfaction of knowing that we have had in the Army men who, given the opportunity of showing what was in them, showed that there is excellent material in them and that we shall have an Engineering establishment in the Army that will have grown with the Army, and will have been of the Army, as distinct from anything imposed from outside. With regard to the actual amounts, the figures for one month under the heading of Pay and Allowances and Food amount to £71,879 Under the heading of Miscellaneous Transport Expenses, which cover the running expenses of patrols, armoured cars and Lancia patrols the monthly figure is £4,320. In addition there are expenses of equipment of officers and the equipment and making up of block houses with their sandbag appendages The cost of general equipment has been about £88,000. Put into round figures, which some people dislike so much, it is an estimate of one million pounds.
I do not suppose that the Minister, any more than myself, would wish to have anything to say to an internal trade dispute, but I desire to know if he has any reply to make to the complaints of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers in the South to the effect that preference is given to the National Union of Railwaymen and concerning which I have given him private correspondence.
I would like to know whether the Deputy is sure that it is the Amalgamated Society of Engineers that is effected?
I have given the Minister the correspondence with regard to this matter.
I regret that I do not know what is under discussion.
"Miscellaneous Expenses" piques curiosity. I wonder whether it includes sums paid for services, say of Army schoolmasters, and more particularly for the use of these men in promoting the learning of Irish. I have often stood to watch the forming of fours and other elementary evolutions on the part of our soldiers outside our churches on Sundays, and I regretted to note that the words of command were given in English. There is such splendid opportunity here for doing great propaganda work on behalf of the language that I am quite sure that the Ministry has not neglected it. So my question is really rhetorical; it answers itself by being asked.
There is another department of Army work which bears on education. The military bands are, no doubt, provided for under X, and the revival of Irish music—I may say, a restoration on the part of our people at large as a musical people—could not be more effectually done than through the agencies of the military bands. Therefore, all of us here who advocate Gaelic culture and Gaelic civilisation and everything that belongs to our past, and that was trampled on for many centuries should take a very keen and lively interest in the question of military bands, more particularly their organisation. I will not quote the hackneyed passage about the making of the peoples' ballads. We all know how far— there are so many historical precedents for it—whole peoples have been influenced in their trend of thought through the agency of popular airs. Having once inspired the soul with the air, it was easy for the propagandists to fit words to it, and in that way to spread a doctrine in an irrestible way. I understand that recently a German musician has been imported to take control of the military band organisation in the Saorstát. It is not unnatural that a German should be selected. That I am prepared to admit. The greatest specialists in these recent days in Irish were in German universities, and public bands and music are associated in most peoples' minds with Germans. Therefore, I think, it is not at all unreasonable, and it is certainly eminently natural, to turn to Germany to supply this need. But German military brass bands are not at all suited to this climate. I am sure there are Deputies here who remember the days before 1914, when one of the inflictions which we were called upon to endure for our sins was the German band. It is true that musicians can put up for the defence of those bands that they were not composed of musicians but of spies—at least, so British propaganda ran. I have heard German bands on native soil, and one obvious thing about them is the lowness of the pitch. The music of Ireland that is indigenous is already sufficiently low. I think it would be interesting to remark that in Paris, for example, when one of the greatest bands in the world is playing for the entertainment of the people, if the day happens to be wet the conductor of the band deliberately raises the pitch of the instruments. There are a great many wet days in Ireland, I need hardly stop to remind the members of the Farmers' Party.
They cannot blame us for that.
That is one of the things for which the Labour Party cannot be blamed, but a great many of them benefit by a wet day putting a stay on outdoor work. They have, however, no pull with the Clerk of the Weather, so they cannot be accused of undue influence in that regard. I would suggest, inasmuch as there is a Committee already in existence in charge of the musical side of the Tailteann competitions, that it might be exceedingly awkward if a Committee of Irish musicians, interesting themselves in that department, provided test pieces and the like for the competitions, based upon the Irish conception of pitch, for our bands trained under our German organiser and entered for these competitions.
There is an international element in this. Most of the wood instruments like the clarionet, the oboe, and the bassoon are absent in many cases from the ordinary military band in Germany, because they prefer brass instruments, and since the war the antagonism to the French being intensified, Saxehorns and Saxophones being of French invention, and largely of French manufacture in the case of the best instruments, these instruments are taboo with your truly patriotic German musician. The consequence is we may find, unless the Minister for Defence looks to it, that our future Irish military bands will be playing "Deutchsland über Alles" or rather "Freistát über Alles" on instruments of brass, made in Germany. Although "made in Germany" was, many years ago, an unfair and unjustifiable taunt, made for the purpose of influencing the public to buy inferior articles of British production, unfortunately, as regards this particular topic, "made in Germany" is by no means a recommendation at the present time. It seems a little thing to spend so much talk on, but I am speaking to a Minister who is quite as interested in the development of Irish music as anyone might be. Therefore, I think, in drawing his attention to this I am not doing anything distasteful to him, personally.
The Vote under (X) is made up of £12,000 in respect of advertisement and printing, £8,000 that will find its way back to the Postmaster-General, and £5,000 for unforseen charges. Bands are provided for, the personnel being provided for under (A), and any instruments under (P). On the point that has been raised with regard to bands, any development that there shall be in the band line in the Army will be along lines concurred in by the Professor of Music in the National University. With respect to the question that has been raised with regard to pitch, I am not a musician, but I do know that the British bands in England are high pitched as distinct from the low pitch from the Continental band. I remember on one occasion some British Military Officer, at a musical festival in England, declaring that there would be no music in England until they got rid of their present army bands, with their high pitch.
As far as the development of band music in Ireland goes, our proposals are that the military band in Ireland should be a low pitched band. That decision is not a decision imported into Ireland by any foreigner. It is a native decision, and, as I say, a decision which, when put up to him, was fully concurred in by the Professor of Music at the National University In the formation of military bands we were faced in this country with the fact that we realised how essential music was in the country, and how essential it was to begin the development of our military bands in the best way so that there would be no false start in the development of military bands in this country, and therefore no loss to general musical development. We found ourselves in the period of history in which there was in Germany many cultured musicians with very great experience in the matter of bands, and we were, I believe, very fortunate in securing that kind of director for the development of our band music, a German, a very cultured musician and a cultured composer, with very great experience in the training of bands and bandmasters. He was not very long in Ireland when he had an enthusiastic appreciation of the difference between what was Irish music and what was not. His work will be a work that will develop along Irish lines, will be controlled by Irish lines of thought in music, and he is simply here to help us. He is of a type that will give us very valuable help in musical training, and in the development of distinctive Irish music.
I take it is open to us to discuss the general question after that rather than under Miscellaneous Expenses.
Yes, after Y and Z have been disposed of.
"Appropriations in Aid," I have assumed it will be under this sub-head that we might raise the question of canteens, and I think it is very proper that a discussion on canteens would immediately follow a discussion on music.
Do Appropriations in Aid involve receipts in canteens?
No.
Do Appropriations in Aid include payment for the privileges of selling goods to a canteen?
I think discussion on the main question now should be general, and should be confined to matters that have not been already raised or could be raised under a sub-head. I think Deputy Johnson would be quite in order in entering into this question of canteens.
I would rather raise that as a minor question, because I think it would be of interest to members to know what the arrangements were as regards canteens, and whether the lines on which the present arrangements were are intended to be permanent. I understand arrangements for the supply of canteens are direct arrangements, and that there is nothing in the way of benefit to any local soldiers' fund or national soldiers' fund, such as has been found quite useful and valuable in other Army organisations.
at this stage took the chair.
I think the system, if it is a system that has been adopted all along of letting out the running of canteens to any individual, is not one which should be continued for any long period, and certainly ought not to be made normal for future Army organisations. I would also like to inquire whether there is any barrier in the arrangements against the encouragement of one class of refreshment as against another class. It is said, and perhaps the Chairman of the Commission on Prices would be able to confirm this if he were here, that there is a higher rate of profit on intoxicants to the retailer than on many non-intoxicants, and it certainly has been the experience in other places, in civil life, that sellers of refreshments who had the option of selling, shall I say, tea or coffee, or mineral waters, as against intoxicants, generally prefer to sell intoxicants as being easier, simpler, and more profitable. It is not well that this should be the case, especially in any Army organisation, and unless there is some restriction I think there is a danger of canteen managers pushing the sale of intoxicants as against non-intoxicants. I am speaking on this matter without any knowledge. I have had no complaints and no information, so that I am quite unprejudiced so far as the present Army arrangements are concerned. The only information that has been given to me is, that the canteens are supplied by a contractor, and I desire to ask the Minister if he will give the Dáil information as to the system under which the canteens are run, whether it is contemplated that this system shall continue, and in general, whether the present system has proved satisfactory. There is another matter which is quite independent and separate from this. It refers to an answer given by the Minister for Defence on Friday, and I would draw his attention to it, so that any misunderstanding might be cleared up. In dealing with the pay of clerical staffs, the Minister said, speaking of four classes, that they had also soldiers who, as skilled clerical workers up to a certain proficiency, received 2s. a day additional allowance, as well as their ordinary pay, food, clothing and accommodation. The Fourth Class were those who belonged to the Third but were not granted food and accommodation in barracks. They received a lodging allowance of 2s. a day, and 2s. a day for food.
The information given to me is that that is incorrect, that, as a matter of fact, many of the Fourth Class have had their 2s. a day for food and 2s. a day for lodging allowance stopped since the 21st of April. There is evidently a misunderstanding in that matter, and I think it well to draw the attention of the Minister to it.
The administration of canteens is not in any way connected with public funds. The system is only really being organised. Contracts are arranged in respect of each barrack. A rebate is given by the contractor which goes to soldiers and soldiers' funds. Wherever a canteen is selling intoxicants it is obligatory that they run a coffee bar with it. Actually, however, in the city barracks here and in Cork, there are dry canteens, where tea and coffee and meat are provided. They are run by a committee who provide a dry canteen with tea and coffee, a reading room, billiard room and library. It is a voluntary committee composed of a number of ladies and gentlemen in the city. The material can be got in the canteen at very small cost, and whatever profits there are made on it, go back into the funds to provide billiard tables, books and general inside recreation for the men. There is also a committee in Cork City which does the same thing, so that with the development of the canteens you have dry canteens developing under voluntary committees, which are doing excellent work, and which are very highly appreciated by the men. You have what is called the wet canteen being set out on contract. Those who run the canteen are also obliged to run a coffee bar along with it. On the matter of the clerical rates, I have taken note of what Deputy Johnson has said in the matter, and will see that any misunderstandings are removed.
Nilmid uilig go léir sásta le Aireacht an Airm agus is ceart agus is mithid é sin a rádh. Acht, ba mhaith liom a rádh, i d-tosach, go bh-fuil fhios agam go maith go raibh obair an airm an-dheachair agus an-chruaidh agus go bh-fuil a lán gniomhartha treána déanta ag na h-Oglaigh. Rud eile, ní h-é Aire Chosanta an duine, agus ní h-íad na saighdiúiri na daoini a bhíos le leathbhliadhain ag cur gach masla níos measa ná a chéile ar na daoine nach bh-fuil dilís do'n t-Saorstát. Agus is maith cuimhniú ar sin. Nil sé dearmadtha agam.
Tá fhios agam go m-beadh an sgeul i bhfád nios measa muna m-beadh Risteárd Ó Maolcatha i g-ceannas an Airm agus gur sheas sé go minic idir mhuinntir na laimhe laidre agus mhuinntir na Poblachta agus nuair a cuirfear i n-iúl an fhirrine la dheireadh thiar thall, ni h-é sin an t-Aire a thiocfas is measa as.
Ach, mar sin féin, tá go leór daoine casaoideach agus ní gan adhbhar maith. Is fáda an sgeál é agus nílim ag dul a chur sios faoi na rudai beaga. B'fhearr liom bunadhas fhághail amach—an bunadhbhar atá cionntach le gach éagcóir a thuit amach. Tá an bunadhas sin soiléir. Tá sé soiléir gurab é bunadhas an sgeil, go n-dearna lucht an Airm dearmad ar cad is dlighe ann agus chruthuigheadar sin go minic.
"Ní h-éadáil ar bith, mura bh-fuil dlighe againn," adeir muinntir na laimhe laidre. "Go h-ifreann leis an dlighe," Agus is dócha gur éigin do'n Airm leanamhaint sa tslighe cheudhna. Ní thuigeann muinntir na laimhe laidre cád is ceád-phrinsipeal na dlighe agus is cuma leó.
Nuair a mharbhuigheadar Liam Ua Maoiliosa do shataladar ar an dlighe agus ar a m-Bunreacht féin, rud nach n-deanfar dearmad air in Éirinn go deó. Ach, níl ann sin ach sompla de'n an-dlighe cuireadh i bh-feidhm. Básuigheadh daoine go h-an-dligheach, in omós dlighe. Gabhadh agus coimeádtar fá ghlas na mílte gan coir ar bith in a leith—ach go raibh amhras eicint orra ag duine eicint uair eicint fá rud eicint! Agus níl sé de mhisneach ag an Aire féin a radh cád deanfar leo. Ceist eile: cad deanfar leó, má tugtar breitheamhnas chun a saorú 'sna cúirteanna? An gcuirfear na cúirteanna sin ar leathtaobh le cúirteanna na Dála? Ac mar bharr an sgéil, nior búnuigheadh an t-Arm féin go dlisteanach riamh agus nior dearnadh iarracht ar bith chun sin a dhéanamh. Tá a' locht ar an Arm— na breitheamhain a bhios aca in-a gcuirteanna féin, níl dli no reacht ag gabhail leo go d-tí an lá indiú.
Do rinneadar dearmad ar cád is dlighe ann. An bh-fuil fáilte ar bith roimh an té a bhios ag iarraidh comhairle a leasa a thabhairt dóibh? Tá fhios agam nach bh-fuil. An bh-fuil fáilte roimh an duine atá ag gearán ar rud eagcórach ar bith a thuit amach? Tá súil agam go bh-fuil, ach is minic, le linn an chogaidh, go bh-fuair duine macánta buille trom gan a bheith ábalta cúitiú ar bith fhághail. Nuair atá sprid na dlighe ag Ceannphuirt Airm, bionn an sprid ceudhna ag an Arm go h-iomlán. Tá sé i gceist go bh-fhuil smacht ceart ar na saighdiúiri ag Aire an Airm anois agus is maith é sin. Tá tréithe maithe acu a fuair Óglaigh na n'Gaedheal ó Dhia agus t-áim ag ceapadh go n-deunfaidh an t-Aire a dhicheall le go m-beadh meas ceart acu orra féin agus rímeád mór aca orra féin. Ach ni mór dó tosnú le na daoini móra agus cruthú go gcuirfear in-eifeacht an dlighe in-aghaidh a dtola féin. Ni mór dó cruthú go gcaithfidh gach aon Saorthanach, agus muinntir na láimhe láidre in a gceann sin, géilleadh do'n dlighe.
Is annamh a labhrann Teachtai Chonndae Bl' Atha Cliath as Gaodluinn annso. Nuair a bhi diospóireacht ar cheisteanna eile do labhradar as Beurla. Ar an gceist seo do labhair an Teachta Ua Dubhthaigh as Gaodhluinn——
Taim chun é radh im Beurla.
It would be a pity to allow the Irish language to be dragged in as a cloak of protection for some of the things that Deputy Gavan Duffy has said just now. It is a kind of cult to say with regard to the Minister for Defence that he is not like the rest of men, that he is not like other Deputies, at least like other Ministers; that he has a soft heart, and that if hard things are done in the country, that he is not to be blamed for them. There has been nothing that the Army has done in the service of this country—whether they are hard things or whether they can be called in the light of the logic of certain people, cruel and unjust things— there has been nothing done in this effort to save our country from destruction that I am not fully and completely associated with. The Army has been the instrument of law in this country at a time when every scrap of law was torn to shreds and when people in this country were prepared to go out and destroy every person and destroy every bit of material in the country in order to follow out a wild bent of their own. It is an astonishing thing to me that a Deputy would stand up in this Dáil facing our Leas-Cheann Comhairle and say that an action that was taken upon one particular occasion, when the life of our Leas-Cheann Comhairle was attempted to have been taken in the streets of Dublin, was illegal. It is astonishing that a Deputy should stand up and say that an action which was taken, and an action which did stop any other attempt to do such a thing as that against the leaders of this Dáil and the individual members of the Dáil, who are the Government of this country and the protectors of this country, and whose voice is the voice of law in this country—to say that an act which saved this Dáil and in saving this Dáil saved the country was illegal. You ask where is the Army Constitution at the present time and you say that it is illegal because it has no Constitution. Where is the Constitution of the Army that freed this country from the presence of a foreign invader, the presence of a foreign army, and the presence of a foreign Government? In the same clear spirit of duty and in the same simple spirit of duty, and in the same simple spirit of upholding the law the Army that freed this country of a foreign Government and that stood up against the tyrannies of a foreign Government, stood up with the permission of, and carrying out the voice of law, of this Government here to defend the liberties of this country against people who unfortunately were inhabitants of it. It would be a pity to draw the veil of Irish over the suggestions in the Deputy's speech. We do not forget what the law is; we know very well what the law is, and we are simply the instruments of the law. The Deputy says that I have not a grip on the soldiers of the army, and that it is a good job.
I did not say that. I said nothing of the kind.
Nior dhubhairt sé sin.
He said that I have no grip on the soldiers and that it is good.
Nior dhubhairt sé sin.
What I said was "Tá sé i gceist"—"it is said"— go bh-fuil smacht ceart ar na saighdiúiri. I said that was good, that he had good control over the soldiers. I must ask the Minister to withdraw that. He said the diametrically opposite to what I stated. I appeal to Leas-Cheann Comhairle.
Ba mhaith liom aistricuhan Teachta Ui Dhubhaigh a fhághail ar an abairt. Ní feidir liom é a aistriú acht amháin mar a rinne mé.
Béidir nár thuig an-tAire an rud a dubhradh. Bhí mé ag éisteacht leis an Teachta agus níor bhain mé an ciall sin as a dubhairt sé. Shaoil mé gur dhubhairt sé go rabh smacht ag an Aire ar an airm. Is iad na focla beaga "i gceist" atá a' tabhairt troblóide dúinn.
As the Minister has asked me to translate, I will translate what I said, if necessary. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle knows that the phrase "í gceist" is common in the West, meaning "It is currently said," and I used it in that sense. What I desired to convey was that it was currently stated that the Minister and the heads of the army, now, have control over their men, and that was all to the good. I went on to say that if they wish to have proper discipline throughout the Army they must give an example as to respect for legislation and law and order at the top.
I withdraw very fully my translation of the Deputy's remarks. We have perfect control over the Army for the simple reason that the Army in Ireland has not been, and the Army in Ireland will not be, a thing organised by great Generals and led by great Generals, because you have to get it out of your head that this is a country of Generals. The army is the consolidation of the self-sacrificing, plainly intelligent young men of the country, and it is not because a man is a Commander-in-Chief or a Minister that his sensible view-point sways and rules those people who delegated to him authority, because the authority in the Army, the tradition in the Army of this authority has been delegated up, and once delegated up, it is absolutely obeyed and bowed to, and the Minister or the Commander-in-Chief's word weighs with the Army because it is a sensible and true expression of the mind of the men, which is the mind of our people. That has been the great strength of your Army and is your great strength to-day.
I am sorry that I am not able to follow what Deputy Gavan Duffy said in Irish. I gather from the speech of the Minister for Defence that some references were made to the act which followed the attempt upon the life of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I am very sorry that this matter has been raised in this way. But having been raised, and having been defended in the way it has been by the Minister, it is absolutely necessary for me to say that the lives of 20 Deputies—the lives of even 50 Deputies—had been much better sacrificed than that four men, in charge of the Government, who had been in prison for months, should be taken out in the dead of night without trial and deliberately killed. That crime can only be expiated by long suffering——
Rubbish!
I think it was a crime the stain of which the country will not get rid of for many generations. I am sorry the Minister has defended it in the way he has done, as an act that was necessary and that was justified by what he thinks to have been its results.
I do not know, sir, what purpose the Deputy for Co. Dublin imagined he was serving by renewing a discussion which took place here months ago, and which he had every opportunity of expressing himself on at the time, and upon which he did express himself fully. I do not know what purpose the other Deputy for Co. Dublin imagined he was serving when he echoed the statements—because they were statements—of Deputy Gavan Duffy, giving as his reason for doing so that the Minister had replied. He has talked about a "crime," and Deputy Gavan Duffy has talked about the "lamh laidir." We were challenged on that action before, and we replied to the challenge. I put it more clearly now, that if there was a crime committed, the means are provided of dealing with it by indictment. And I ask to be included in that indictment, because if there was a crime committed I am fully guilty of that crime. Deputy Gavan Duffy tried to draw a distinction between one Minister and another, and to distinguish between the Commander-in-Chief and what he chooses to call the "lamh laidir." What is the meaning of that? What is the purpose of that? Is the purpose of it to single out members of the Ministry, who were specially obnoxious to Deputy Gavan Duffy, for opprobrium. If that is not the purpose, what is the purpose?
I am not speaking now for the purpose of electioneering, but I would be quite prepared to meet either of the two Deputies for Co. Dublin before the electors of Co. Dublin on that subject—specifically on that subject—and we would see what the people of Co. Dublin think.
The Unionists!
I do not know anything at all about Unionists, and I am not going to know anything about Unionists. I never addressed a Unionist meeting in my life, and, if I have to speak to the electors of Co. Dublin, or the electors of any other part of Ireland, I will make no distinction between Unionists and others. I assure the two Deputies who have spoken that it will not be the Unionists who will be most emphatic in their condemnation of their particular standpoint. I am in touch as much as they are, I think, with the sentiments of the public, and I venture to say that the electors who voted for Deputy Gavan Duffy at the previous election, and the electors who voted for Deputy Johnson at the previous election—the workingmen of Co. Dublin—do not, and will not, bear out what they have attempted to charge this Ministry with here this evening— illegality and crime. I am perfectly certain that the workingmen and working women of Co. Dublin know, and know well, that this Government did its duty to the country not with any love of severity—no person can pretend to charge us with love of severity—but entirely, purely and simply in the sense that a certain duty had to be done, and that whether it was agreeable or disagreeable to us, and to those who had to do it, it was going to be done. If that duty had to be done again, it would have to be done again. Moreover, if a Government, in the circumstances that we have passed through, had not faced up to that duty, as we have only endeavoured to face up to it, if we had not done so, Deputies would not be sitting here debating questions like Army Estimates this evening. No one can imagine what the result might have been—chaos, economic ruin, political ruin, anarchy throughout the country, and possibly the hopes of this Irish nation obliterated for ever.
There are some people who hold, as an article of faith, that the hopes of a nation cannot be destroyed. Well, they have never read history. If they have, they have read it blindly. The acts of severity that were done by this Government this Government does not shrink from responsibility for. At the same time, it claims that, in doing those acts, it exercised rightly the authority conferred upon it by its people at a time of the greatest possible crisis and emergency. I cannot find a word to convey my idea as to Deputy Gavan Duffy's sentiments about the legality and the illegality of acts done by the Army.
It is an extraordinary thing to me to hear a Deputy, who is himself a lawyer, and who, I presume, has studied Constitutional Law and Constitutional History, expressing such extraordinary sentiments. Why, he himself, was a Minister in a Government that had an Army that had no constitution, no Army Act and no Army Law whatsoever. And he knows perfectly well that when an Army has got to do its duty it has to do things which are not a breach of law, but which in ordinary circumstances would be a breach of law. Why, if it is only an officer who has to command a number of men to cross over another man's field as he must do, it is a breach of law. Are we to have legislation for all that, or are we to be told it is illegal because it is not provided for by rules and regulations. There is an inherent law for all these things. There is a law that exists for all these things if it were never written or never put upon a Statute Book, or is the mentality that is before us this: that the thing which is lawful in itself, lawful because it is necessary for the public safety, lawful because it is necessary by the circumstances of the case, does not become lawful until we go through certain forms here in this Dáil. It is an extraordinary thing that all these questions should be raised here again this afternoon—questions that go into first principles. The question is raised—we are not going to shrink from it. We have no idea of shrinking from it now, or as some Deputies suggested, when we come to render an account of our stewardship before the electors. I repeat I am prepared to meet the electors or any body of the electors, no matter whom, that may be selected, and not to defend—for I say it requires no defence—but to justify and to claim from every man and woman listening to me, the support of their consciences for the actions that the Government have carried out, for the general policy of the Government, and for the particular acts that have been singled out here this evening, acts of severity, but none the less of justice. Owing to some sort of indefinite sentimentalism, we have been told here to-day that these are crimes. They are not crimes. They are just acts, and the people of Ireland, and the people of County Dublin, not less than any other sections of the people of Ireland, know, and know well that they are just acts.
I think it rather a pity that a matter once so fully discussed in this Dáil has been referred to again, and since it has been referred to I should like to say that I spoke my mind upon that occasion, and by every word so spoken then I stand now. I am not going back to it except to say this, that I also, like the Minister who has just spoken, am prepared to render my account to the people who sent me here on that occasion, and on every occasion I shall go back to the people who sent me here, and shall not choose some other venue that I consider more convenient to render my account in. I am not going to enlarge upon that now, but to make reference to the fact that I do consider, and I repeat it, I said it then and I say it again, that I thought that act of reprisal, seeing that it has been referred to again, that it did do and that it has done and is doing extraordinary violence to the consciences of the people of this country. It would have been very much better if that stain had not been incurred. The point, however, that I wish to raise again, on the general question of the Army Vote is to ask the Minister for Defence if he would deal a little more fully than he yet has done with one or two matters that he has made the subject of public utterances outside this Dáil. The matters were raised when the Vote was first brought before the Dáil, and I do not think he dealt with them as fully as he should and, as he possibly will agree, as fully as the matters deserve. I would ask him now to take the opportunity of doing so. I am referring to what is going to happen when demobilisation has begun, and when, therefore, in the circumstances that are quite inevitable, a considerable amount of extra unemployment will be created. That the Minister himself is aware of the difficulty, his own words show. I am now going to quote from a newspaper report of his words in a speech delivered on April 27th last, at a meeting held here in Dublin. His words are:
"Faced with the responsibility of having, at some time or another, to provide a way out for a large proportion of the fifty thousand men in the Army, his mind had been running on the question of unemployment. They had a country that was undeveloped to a large extent; there were many improvements possible as regards the condition of the roads, etc. Unemployment was always a danger. There should be a mathematical way of getting rid of it, but recently they have suffered a great deal from mathematics." He went on then giving references to particular types of work. His speech carries an inference, which may be altogether unjust and altogether wrong, but I certainly think, and other people probably think, that the construction to be put upon it was that it was contemplated by him to employ the army directly upon such reconstruction work, and that is a matter that I think we ought to have dealt with here, because if these reconstruction works are going—
May I intervene for a moment to ask, on a point of order and on a point of information, what precise item in the Estimate the Deputy is dealing with? I understand that we are dealing with the Army Estimate, and I am at a loss to find, amongst the sums mentioned in the Vote, what particular sum the Deputy is dealing with.
The Minister for Finance, I think, has not been in the Chamber throughout this debate, and it will be recalled by you, A Leas-Chinn Comhairle, that the Ceann Comhairle ruled that when several items, from A to Z, had been taken and dispensed with, then the general question of the Army Vote, and of the moneys voted under that Estimate, could be taken. I ask, was not that the ruling of the Ceann Comhairle?
That is so.
Then I am in order?
Before the Minister for Finance broke in upon me, I was dealing with the speech of the Minister for Defence. I said that he evidently, from the terms of his speech, a report of which I hold in my hands, was contemplating the employment of Army squads on reconstruction work. I think we ought to have further information on that, because I do not imagine it would be contemplated, in a Vote that is definitely a military Vote, to provide for the expenditure of part of the money so voted on reconstructional work that, perhaps, might be undertaken better in some other way. But, in any case, however it be undertaken, my immediate purpose is to discover from him how, under normal conditions, the demobilisation that he has forecasted is going to occur, and what precautions he, speaking not merely, now, as Minister for Defence, but speaking as a member of the Executive Council, and his colleagues have in their minds, so that when demobilisation begins the persons so demobilised will not be thrown again on the unemployed market. I desire to know if there are such plans and what are the plans, and, generally, to ask for somewhat fuller information than we have at the present moment with regard to this matter of demobilisation, especially in its bearing, its intimate bearing, on the question of unemployment, because, undoubtedly, demobilisation is going to augment unemployment and going to increase its injurious effects. The Minister will not need to be reminded, and the Dáil will not need to be reminded, that in other countries after the European war, when demobilisation occurred, there was a whole outcrop of difficulties very closely similar to our own problems of irregularism that we had hoped we had seen the last of. All this occurred in other countries. We have, therefore, before us the example of other countries, and what we have to avoid. It was stated, I believe, in one of these countries, I think in England, by a Minister that if they had known what the consequences of speedy mobilisation would be they would have taken other methods, and would have prepared in advance for the consequences.
at this stage resumed the chair.
We, at any rate, have their experience before us, and I ask the Minister if he will state what plans he and his colleagues have before them to deal with this problem, as and when it will arise, as he has indicated that it will arise during the remaining six months of this year.
On the question of unemployment, and on the question of reconstruction, I have nothing to add to what I said on Friday last. I repeat what I said on the previous day speaking on this Vote. There is nothing included in this Estimate for the purpose of employing men on constructive work. On the general question of demobilisation plans, I am not prepared to discuss the matter here now for many reasons, and I do not consider that it would be advisable to do so. The general problem of demobilisation will be dealt with, bearing everything in mind regarding the necessity for keeping a proper military force in the country to control any situation likely to arise in the course of the next twelve months, and bearing also in mind the question of the likelihood of unemployment from there being an addition to the number of unemployed arising as a result of demobilisation. All these matters will of necessity, be borne in mind, but I do not think the present is the time to make any statement of policy with regard to them.
Question put:—"That a sum not exceeding £7,164,500 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1924, for expenditure in respect of the Army."
The Dáil divided, Tá, 39; Níl, 10.
Tá
- Liam T. Mac Cosgair.
- Gearóid Ó Súileabháin.
- Seán Ó Maolruaidh.
- Seán Ó Duinnín.
- Mícheál Ó hAonghusa.
- Domhnall Ó Mocháin.
- Seán Ó hAodha.
- Liam de Róiste.
- Séamus Breathnach.
- Darghal Figes.
- Deasmhumhain Mac Gearailt.
- Seán Ó Ruanaidh.
- Seán Mac Garaidh.
- Risteárd Ó Maolchatha.
- Pilib Mac Cosgair.
- Domhnall Mac Cárthaigh.
- Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha.
- Earnan Altún.
- Gearóid Mac Giobúin, K.C.
- Liam Thrift.
- Eoin Mac Néill.
- Liam Mag Aonghusa.
- Pádraic Ó Máille.
- Seosamh Ó Faoileacháin.
- Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
- Fionán Ó Loingsigh.
- Criostóir Ó Broin.
- Caoimhghin Ó hUigín.
- Próinsias Bulfin.
- Séamus Ó Dóláin.
- Eamon Ó Dúgáin.
- Peadar Ó hAodha.
- Séamus Ó Murchadha.
- Seosamh Mac Giolla Bhrighde.
- Liam Mac Sioghaird.
- Alsadair Mac Cába.
- Earnán de Blaghd.
- Séamus de Burca.
- Mícheál Ó Dubhghaill.
Níl
- Tomás de Nógla.
- Tomás Mac Eoin.
- Seoirse Ghabháin Uí Dhubhthaigh.
- Tomás Ó Conaill.
- Aodh Ó Cúlacháin.
- Séamus Eabhróid.
- Liam Ó Daimhín.
- Seán Ó Laidhin.
- Cathal Ó Seanáin.
- Domhnall Ó Ceallacháin.
Motion declared carried.
No other Estimates are to be taken this afternoon.