I take it we have debated Section 5 sufficiently.
DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - LAND LAW (COMMISSION) BILL, 1923.
We were debating an amendment on Section 5 by Deputy Fitzgibbon, and the great protagonists in that debate have already spoken twice or three times.
My speech certainly will not be as long as that of Deputy Magennis.
Or so good.
The first thing I will deal with is that which was referred to last evening, namely, the circular that was issued with regard to canvassing of T.D.'s. I wish to say that, as far as being approached by officials of the Department is concerned, I only saw one individual in this House in a private room, and I understood that individual was acting on behalf of the staff. I stated I was acquainted with the staff for a number of years. Any other person I saw was outside this House. Also I understood that this individual approached me during a period of leave. I contend that, that being so, there was no necessity for the drastic terms of the circular issued on the 12th June. The other question is that of the temporary staff in the Solicitor's Department. It is rumoured that this staff is going to be dispensed with in connection with the reconstitution of the Land Commission. It appears to me that the administration in connection with the carrying out of the Land Bill will have to be strengthened, especially legal work done in connection with the previous Land Bill. The previous work has been done by the solicitor, who was acting in conjunction with the tenant and the landlord. That will be quite the opposite from what one may anticipate regarding this Act when it is amended and passed. For that reason it would be incorrect to anticipate that the staff in the legal department, who have an average service of eight years will be treated in the way it is rumoured they are to be treated. All that I ask is an assurance that those men who have long service, and who are fully acquainted with all the working of the legal department, should be taken over with any section of the temporary staff that may be taken over by the Ministry.
I am absolutely in favour of this amendment of Deputy Fitzgibbon. The question of canvassing has nothing to do with it. The question is, are the demands of those clerks just or unjust? They are just. They have been kept for years working in the Civil Service on a starvation wage, and now, when the whole thing is being reorganised, when the thousands accumulated by the Congested Districts Board are being turned over to this new Land Commission, I do not see why justice should not be meted out to those clerks. They have been working for 16 or 20 years in the service of this Commission, and they are still working at £150 a year. That amount during the war was worth, say, about 17s. 6d. a week, and therefore justice should be meted out to them now. Those men who controlled the Board and who turned it into a life trust, whose interest is to prolong the settlement of the land question, paid themselves the bonuses. They did not pay these men the bonus; they let them stew on the starvation wages they had before the war. What is the position of the Government, that wishes this thing to continue.
I wish to say I think the Congested Districts Board staff have a great grievance. They were treated badly by the whole Board. The Minister for Agriculture gave an assurance yesterday evening that they would be put on a Civil Service basis as Second Division Clerks, and that in future their service would be taken into consideration by the Minister for Finance. I should like to know if that means that the years they spent in the Congested Districts Board will be taken into account just as if they spent those years under the Land Commission. The British Treasury, I understand, offered to take over those men, and the offer was rejected by the Congested Districts Board on the grounds that they had no money. They held to that decision up to the last, and when they examined their reports at the end they found that they had £153,000 to the good.
I think this question of the clerks ought to be approached in this way. There is no doubt up to some time ago the intention of the Board was to treat those as Civil Servants, on the same lines as Second Division Clerks. That has certainly been proved by those who are making this claim now. In 1920 a certain revision or reorganisation of the Civil Service took place, and if the Congested Districts Board had carried out their original intention, and had given the same freedom to their clerks that the Civil Servants in a similar position got, they, too, would have carried out the reorganisation on Whitley lines at that time. Assuming that they had done that—which all must agree would have been a perfectly fair and right and just thing—I take it that the Government, in taking over these people now would take them over in the positions in which they would have found them. The point is: are we, in taking them over now, entitled or is it fair or right on our part to take advantage of the fact that the Congested Districts Board did not do by these men what it should have done, and what we think it should have done, two or three years ago. I think that is a consideration we should bear in mind when we come to consider the equities of the question. I would suggest that that is the point of view from which the Minister, in taking over these people, should consider the case.
I have been, I suppose, indirectly responsible for the fact that the Minister for Agriculture issued that circular in reference to canvassing, because I drew the attention of the Ceann Comhairle to the presence of not one but at least three representatives of these men outside the Dáil who were canvassing Deputies, myself included. If we are to conduct the affairs of this country on anything above the standard appertaining to a Rural District Council or a Board of Guardians we certainly could not avoid taking the step that the Minister has taken. I do think that to wink at it or to gloss it over or to permit it to be continued would leave us open to the charge of permitting a most reprehensible practice—a practice that no Parliament in any country would dare to tolerate. I wonder if Civil Servants would get into Westminster, for instance——
The amendment has nothing to do with that.
Perhaps it has not, but I would just like to associate myself with this circular. I regret that Deputies have thought it advisable to get up here and defend it. I think it is a most unfortunate practice.
The Minister is quite wrong in saying that anybody has defended this practice. Nobody has defended it. I do not want the debate to develop into a discussion on this circular. The question under discussion is the amendment.
If I was wrong, I am sorry.
I was not canvassed, and I did not see the Minister's circular.
Deputy Davin asked for an undertaking that the officials of the Solicitor's Office in the Congested Districts Board will get the same treatment as the temporary clerks of the Board. I give that undertaking. They will get exactly the same treatment, and the fact that they are in a slightly different position will not count against them. With regard to the amendment, I have been asked to do so many things for the staff of the Congested Districts Board that I find myself in some doubt as to what exactly I am really expected to do. Perhaps the best thing I can do is to keep to the amendment. I will read it.
"Upon the transfer to the employment of the Irish Land Commission of officers of the Congested Districts Board the Minister for Agriculture, with the approval of the Minister for Finance, may make regulations providing for the appointment to the Executive class of the Civil Service of the State of pensionable officers who obtain such certificate of efficiency as may be required by the regulations."
The Minister for Finance has the power to do that already. I take it that there is no doubt whatever about that. Everybody is clear about it. The Minister for Finance has the power to promote any officer, whether he be temporary or not, whether he be a Civil Servant or a non-Civil Servant, to an Executive post in the Civil Service. There is nothing to argue about so far as the first part of the amendment is concerned. The amendment goes on:—
"and for the appointment to the clerical class of the Civil Service of the State of all other pensionable clerical officers and non-pensionable clerical officers."
The Minister for Finance has equal power to do that. There is no chance whatever that he is going to appoint an unpensionable clerical officer to the pensionable clerical class, but, in fact, he has power to do that if he so wishes. The amendment proceeds:—
"and such regulations may provide that for the purpose of determining the salary and seniority of officers transferred or appointed as aforesaid, their permanent service in the Civil Service of the State as provided by Section I. shall be taken into account."
The Minister for Finance has the right to take any relevant considerations into account, and he will, in fact, take all relevant considerations into account. The amendment concludes:—
"and their salaries adjusted according to such service, and that any increments which would have accrued in such service shall be paid retrospectively."
I cannot accept that. First of all, no one is in a position to say at this stage what increments would have accrued. There are officers in the Congested Districts Board who would have been in receipt of a higher salary if they had been in the Land Commission or in the Department of Agriculture. There are officers of the Congested Districts Board who would have been in receipt of the same salary that they have been receiving. There are officers in the Congested Districts Board—temporary officers— and they might have had lower salaries if they had been in the Department of Agriculture or the Land Commission or in the ordinary Civil Service. Nobody can look back and say "Such a man would have been in such a position if he had been in such a service." It would be quite impossible. In any event, the principle is absolutely unsound. We can promise to do our best to give every man a fair chance so far as we are concerned in the future, but we cannot promise, and we do not intend to promise, to right all the wrongs—where there have been wrongs—in the past. We could not do it. We would be taking on a task which we would find would be growing every day. The principle is absolutely unsound, and I do not propose to give any undertaking of that kind. We will do what we can in the way of giving treatment to people who are entitled to treatment—establishing people who are entitled to be established, and grading the various grades of the Congested Districts Board into the appropriate grades in the Civil Service. We will do what we can in that way to make up to them for what they lost in the past, but we can do no more.
I want to answer a couple of arguments that have been adduced. In his first speech the Minister for Agriculture complained that this amendment was only conferring powers upon the Ministry which they already possessed, and that it was only a permissive amendment. If that is a real objection I am quite prepared, if he wishes, to substitute the word "shall" for "may," and make it obligatory. I do not know whether that is the ground of his objection or not, but I do not desire to stand in the way of any amendment of that kind.
If the Deputy is looking for information I might as well give it to him at this stage. My point was that there was no use arguing about conferring powers on us which we had already—that it was a waste of time.
I am inclined to agree. Therefore, I would be quite willing on the Report Stage to have a good deal of the earlier part of the amendment, dealing with powers that are already possessed, struck out, but the vital portion of this amendment is where the sting is in the wasp—in the tail. That is the part that provides that these people should be treated as their employers promised to treat them, and placed in the positions they would have occupied had they not been prevented from rising in salary by purely arbitrary barriers imposed on them because they had not been put upon a Civil Service basis, as was promised them. It seeks to empower the Ministry, out of the moneys these men earned and were carried over with them to the Land Commission, to make good to them these increments in salaries they would have obtained if the promises that were given by their employers had been carried out. That is power which is necessary, so far as I am capable of forming any opinion, to enable the Treasury to carry out the object of the amendment. I am by no means satisfied that the Minister for Finance would have the power to authorise one penny of retrospective pay to these men without express Parliamentary sanction. It is for that reason that I think the concluding words of this amendment are necessary, and that they are not covered by the undertaking given by the Minister. The Minister has promised, and I have no doubt his promise will be fulfilled, in a way that previous promises to these men were not fulfilled, that he will do all he can in the way of grading and restoring to them the positions they would have held if the promises of their former employers had been carried out. I have no doubt that the Minister will carry that out loyally, but I doubt that he possesses the power to give to these men the increments they would have obtained if the promises of their former employers had been carried out. The only thing he has really urged against this is, if he yields to the prayer of these men he will be deluged with similar applications from other people. Where will he be able to find any body of men in the public employment with twelve years of promises in writing, repeated over and over again, that would be treated in this way, with a document handed over by their late employers to this Government urging this Government to carry out the promises their former employers had broken? Surely there cannot be any such body of men in existence, a body of men bringing with them to the new Department money that has actually been saved out of their own pockets and by the broken pledges of their employers. If there be any such other body of men I respectfully suggest that they are just as much entitled to receive from the Government the consideration I ask for these men, and which the Government should not in common honesty deny. It is not that we are trying to saddle this Government with the obligations of the British Government. I am asking that these men be paid out of money that they are bringing into the service, money that has been saved out of their own pockets.
First of all, if the money is on the Vote it is open to the Minister for Finance to pay anybody retrospectively. However, I do not want to take refuge in that for a moment. I am absolutely against the principle of paying these men retrospectively. I stated already, and I repeat it, that we cannot undertake to right all the wrongs that were done in the last hundred years. All we can do is to give everybody a fair chance in the future. If we do that we will be doing our part well. There are a good many dismissed and resigned Civil Servants, men who resigned, perhaps, for good reasons. Would anybody suggest that we should not only pay them their entire salaries during the period of their dismissal, but have a Commission set up to find what promotion they would have got if they had not resigned or if they were not dismissed? Is that the suggestion? If so, are not these people as well entitled as these clerks of the C.D.B., who drew their salaries, such as they were, during all this period? The fact of the matter is that the C.D.B. men want something you cannot have in this world—absolute security. We all have to take our chances. They are depending to a great extent on the goodwill of the particular people who are in charge of the Congested Districts Board and in charge of the finances of the country at the moment. Nobody can insure them against anything that may happen in that way. It is quite impossible. Like everybody else, they have to depend on the good will, good sense, and sense of fair play of these people, and they are not entitled to come along and ask for any more assurance, and they are not entitled to come along and get rights, privileges and safeguards that no other class can get.
Amendment put.
The Dáil divided. Tá, 25; Níl, 33.
Tá
- Tomás de Nógla.
- Riobárd Ó Deaghaidh.
- Liam de Róiste.
- Tomás Mac Eoin.
- Seoirse Ghabháin Uí Dhubhthaigh.
- Seán Ó Ruanaidh.
- Ailfrid Ó Broin.
- Earnán Altún.
- Sir Séamus Craig.
- Gearóid Mac Giobúin, K.C.
- Liam Thrift.
- Liam Mag Aonghusa.
- Tomás Ó Conaill.
- Aodh Ó Cúlacháin.
- Séamus Éabhróid.
- Risteárd Mac Liam.
- Liam Ó Daimhín.
- Seán Ó Laidhin.
- Cathal Ó Seanáin.
- Seosamh Mac Giolla Bhrighde.
- Domhnall Ó Broin.
- Domhnall Ó Muirgheasa.
- Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
- Micheál O Dubhghaill.
- Micheál Ó Ceallacháin.
Níl
- Liam T. Mac Cosgair.
- Donchadh Ó Guaire.
- Uáitear Mac Cumhaill.
- Seán Ó Maolruaidh.
- Seán Ó Duinnín.
- Mícheál Ó hAonghusa.
- Domhnall Ó Mocháin.
- Séamus Breathnach.
- Pádraigh Mag Ualghairg.
- Deasmhumhain Mac Gearailt.
- Mícheál de Duram.
- Pilib Mac Cosgair.
- Mícheál de Stáineas.
- Domhnall Mac Cárthaigh.
- Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha.
- Eoin Mac Néill.
- Pádraig Ó hÓgáin.
- Pádraic Ó Máille.
- Seosamh Ó Faoileacháin.
- Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
- Fionán Ó Loingsigh.
- Séamus Ó Cruadhlaoich.
- Criostóir Ó Broin.
- Caoimhghin Ó hUigín.
- Próinsias Bulfin.
- Séamus Ó Dóláin.
- Aindriú Ó Láimhín.
- Seán MacEoin.
- Eamon Ó Dúgáin.
- Tomás Ó Domhnaill.
- Earnán de Blaghd.
- Uinseann de Faoite.
- Séamus de Burca.
Amendment declared lost.
Motion made and question "That Section 5 stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
SECTION 6.
(1) There shall be transferred to and vested in the Irish Land Commission immediately on the passing of this Act all and every jurisdiction, power and duty which, immediately before the passing of this Act, appertained to or were by any means vested in the Congested Districts Board under or by virtue of the Congested Districts Board (Ireland) Acts and were situate or exercisable within the area of Saorstát Eireann.
(2) Whenever the jurisdiction or powers of the Congested Districts Board in respect of land situate in the Congested Districts Counties as defined by Section 46 of the Irish Land Act, 1909, were in derogation of the jurisdiction or powers of the Irish Land Commission exercisable in respect of land so situate or were more limited in any respect than the jurisdiction or powers of the Irish Land Commission in respect of land not so situate, the Irish Land Commission, in addition to the jurisdiction and powers aforesaid of the Congested Districts Board, have in respect of land so situate all the jurisdiction and powers which on the transfer date were vested in the Irish Land Commission in respect of land so situate, or of land not so situate.
(3) All and every jurisdiction, power and duty transferred by this section which was, previous to the passing of this Act, exercisable or to be performed by the Congested Districts Board or any members or member thereof shall from and after the passing of this Act be exercised and performed by the Commissioners (other than the Judicial Commissioner) of the Irish Land Commission, but subject to the like right (if any) of appeal (including appeal by way of case stated or reference of a point of law) to the Judicial Commissioner of the Irish Land Commission as existed previous to the passing of this Act.
I beg to move:
In Sub-section (2), line 3, to insert after the words "Land Commission" the word "shall."
Amendment agreed to.
Question: "That Section 6, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
Question: "That Sections 7 and 8 stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
SECTION 9.
(1) From and after the passing of this Act the following existing statutory provisions shall cease to have effect—that is to say:
(a) Section 5 of the Congested Districts Board (Ireland) Act, 1899;
(b) Section 38 of the Irish Land Act, 1903, in so far as it provides for the payment of the sum of £20,000 to the Congested Districts Board in each financial year;
(c) Section 49 of the Irish Land Act 1909, in so far as it provides for the payment to the Congested Districts Board of the annual sum of £144,750 (being the residue of the annual sum of £163,750 mentioned in that section remaining after payment of the annual sum of £19,000 to the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction).
(2) The annual charge on moneys provided by the Oireachtas created by Section 1 of the Ireland Development Grant, 1903, shall be reduced by the sum of £20,000, being the annual sum payable under the said Section 38 of the Irish Land Act, 1903, to the Congested Districts Board.
(3) From and after the passing of this Act the annual sum placed at the disposal of the Congested Districts Board by virtue of Sub-section (1) of Section 35 of the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1891, shall be paid to the Irish Land Commission and applied as an appropriation in aid of the vote for the Irish Land Commission.
(4) All the property and assets (other than lands, tenements, and hereditaments) transferred by this Act from the Congested Districts Board to the Irish Land Commission shall be applied or retained by the Irish Land Commission under Regulations made by the Ministry of Finance to meet outstanding or contingent liabilities of the Congested Districts Board, and so far as not so applied or retained shall be paid into or disposed of for the benefit of the Exchequer in such manner as the Ministry of Finance may appoint.
I move the amendments standing in my name. They are clerical or verbal amendments. They read:—
In Sub-section (2), line 18, to insert immediately after the words "Development Grant" the word "Act.'
In Sub-section (4), lines 32 and 35, to delete the words "Ministry of," and insert in lieu thereof the words "Minister for."
Amendments agreed to.
Question "That Section 9, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
Question: "That Section 10 stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
SECTION 11.
(1) Every mention of or reference to the Judicial Commissioners or the Commissioners of the Irish Land Commission or to any of them contained in any Act to which this section applies shall, subject and without prejudice to the provisions of this Act and unless the context otherwise requires, be construed and take effect as a mention of or reference to the Judicial Commissioner appointed under this Act or the Judge for the time being executing his office or the Commissioners or a like number of Commissioners appointed under this Act, as the case may require.
(2) Every mention of or reference to the Congested Districts Board contained in any Act to which this section applies, other than the Congested Districts Board (Ireland) Acts, shall, unless the context otherwise requires, be construed and take effect as a mention of or reference to the Irish Land Commission.
(3) The Executive Council of Saorstát Eireann may from time to time make all such general or specific adaptations of or modifications in any Act to which this section applies as, in the opinion of the Executive Council, are necessary to remove doubts or difficulties in regard to the application of such Act to the Irish Land Commission, or to the members thereof appointed under this Act or are otherwise necessary to give effect to the provisions of this Act.
(4) This section applies to every Act of the Parliament of the late United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland which was on the 6th day of December, 1922, in force in the area now within the jurisdiction of Saorstát Eireann and to every Act of the Oireachtas.
I move the amendments standing in my name. They are drafting amendments. They read:—
In Sub-section (1) line 46, to insert after the words "any Act" the words "or Order."
In Sub-section (2) line 55, to insert after the words "any Act" the words "or Order."
In Sub-section (3) line 61, to insert after the words "any Act" the words "or Order," and in line 2, page 7, to insert after the words "such Act" the words "or Order."
In Sub-section (4) line 10, to add after the word "Oireachtas" the words "and to every Order made under any such Act as aforesaid, and which was in force on the date and in the area aforesaid, and in this section the word `Order' includes rule and regulation."
Amendments agreed to.
Motion made and question: "That Section 11 as amended stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
I think the word "and" after "aforesaid" in the last amendment should be left out.
I think we will have to deal with that later. We can do it in the Report Stage.
I do not think it makes any difference.
Question: "That Section 12 stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
SECTION 13.
The salaries or remuneration of the members, officers, and staff of the Irish Land Commission and all moneys required by the Irish Land Commission for the exercise of the powers or performance of the duties heretofore exercised or performed by the Congested Districts Board and all such other expenses of carrying this Act into effect as may be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance, shall be paid out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas.
I beg to move:
In line 18, to delete the word "such," and in line 19 to delete all words after the words "into effect," and to insert in lieu thereof the words "shall to such extent as shall be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance be paid out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas."
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made and question: "That Section 13 as amended stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
Question: "That Section 14 stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
Question: "That the title stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.