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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 22 Jun 1923

Vol. 3 No. 32

CIVIC GUARD (ACQUISITION OF PREMISES) BILL, 1923. - SECOND STAGE.

I move the Second Reading of this Bill. The number of Civic Guard stations established to date, as I explained on the First Reading of this Bill, is something slightly over 400, and the total establishment provides for 807 stations within the area of the jurisdiction of the Free State, as compared with 1214 similar R.I.C. establishments. The necessity for this Bill arises largely from the fact that over 75 per cent. of the old barracks were burned or otherwise destroyed and have not as yet been repaired. The old R.I.C. barracks were of two kinds, those owned and maintained by the Government and those rented from private landlords. The matter of restoring the destroyed Government barracks is in hands, but owing to the extent of the destruction and the large cost of restoration, progress is of necessity slow. It has been only with great difficulty that Civic Guard stations have been established in such important towns as Mallow, Carrick-on-Suir and Claremorris, and the demand from all quarters of the country to have the Civic Guards sent, and sent immediately, is very great and very insistent. If there be a principle underlying this Bill, it might be said to be this, that in certain circumstances where the public need is great the strict and legal right of the individual must be waived. Some time since, we were considering the Rent Restrictions Bill, in which we recognised that principle that in a social emergency, in the face of a great house shortage we had to restrict the play of economic forces and limit the rents which, normally, landlords would be entitled to charge, namely, the rents created by the play of demand and supply forces. In the case of this Bill, we are asked to say that, with reasonable provision for adjusting rent, the State shall be allowed to take over houses, in view of the public need for the establishment of the Civic Guard throughout the country, and shall have compulsory powers in the matter. That principle is recognised and its application is always a matter of degree. It is recognised that the State shall, in certain circumstances, have power to acquire land on which to construct a railway, for instance, and we ask now, in view of the great need to have, in the shortest space of time, a full police force established through the country, that we shall have power in regard to houses. I am under the feeling that possibly in advocating this Bill I am forcing an open door. Deputies are probably well aware of the feelings of their constituents in this matter. They are probably well aware that every area where a Civic Guard station is not established is clamouring for its establishment, and I think that they will be inclined to agree that, in face of the great urgent public need of this kind, it is not an undue hardship to ask the individual to forego his full claim and to have his house or premises taken over at a reasonable rent by the State. The first Section of the Bill gives to the Commissioners of Public Works power to examine and acquire premises. The second Section provides for the serving of notice on people whose premises it is proposed to acquire. The third Section of the Bill defines the machinery by which the rent to be paid for the premises will be arranged.

"All premises acquired by the Commissioners under this Act shall be acquired for such term of years and at such rent as may be agreed between the Commissioners and the occupier, immediate landlord, or owner (as the case may require), and in default of such agreement shall be taken by the Commissioners on a yearly tenancy, terminable at the end of any year of the tenancy by either party on giving three months' previous notice in writing, and subject to yearly rent to be fixed by the Commissioners."

Then there is an appeal from the decision of the Commissioners in Section 5:—

"Any person aggrieved by a decision of the Commissioners under this Act fixing the amount of any rent or compensation or the terms of any tenancy, may appeal from such decision to one of the panel of referees appointed under Sections 33 and 34 of the Finance (1909-10) Act, 1910, and those sections shall apply to every such appeal as fully as if the word `Commissioners' wherever it occurs in those sections had the same meaning as it has in this Act."

I feel that it is probably unnecessary to add more. Deputies will realise that, with an election falling due inside a couple of months and in face of the whole internal condition of the country, this matter of getting out the new police force is one of urgency and that the rather drastic powers asked for in the Bill are not asked for without very real grounds and very real necessity, based on the public necessity.

I second the motion.

May I ask the Minister if there is any power under this Bill to acquire a house to house the Civic Guard and if there is any power to purchase premises, because I know one particular case in my area, in the town of New Ross—Deputy Doyle knows about it, too—where, previous to the Truce, the courthouse could be had for £20 a year and the landlord is now trying to get £50. The County Council had immense difficulty in trying to obtain the courthouse there for the use of the District Justice.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

This Bill only deals with accommodation for the Civic Guards.

I have no objection whatever to the general principle of this Bill. We all know in consequence of the destruction of what were the barracks in which the local Constabulary were housed, there is an urgent need for accommodation for the Civic Guard, but I do think that at a later stage of this Bill it will be necessary to introduce some restriction on the class of premises that may be acquired for this purpose. The housing of the Civic Guard is a great public purpose. There are, however, public purposes which are scarcely less great, and one of them is education. I know of my own knowledge of the cases of two large schools that were fully occupied by pupils and which were taken as a military necessity by the Minister for Defence, and were temporarily converted into barracks. The students were dispersed through the country, and the masters had to be discharged. No other accommodation could be found for them. Now, I do think that when this Bill comes before us at a later stage it will be necessary to introduce some restriction on the class of premises that may be taken for the purpose of the Civic Guard, because however great a public purpose that may be, the education of the young of this country can scarcely be considered inferior to it in importance. A large school is a very eligible place to take; there is usually plenty of dormitories and housing accommodation, and a school would make an excellent place for either a military or Civic Guard Barracks, and, therefore, it is a great temptation to people who have to go around looking for a suitable place in a town or country district to pitch upon a school. The provision for compensation in that case would be purely illusory. The owner of the school, the landlord whoever he might be, would probably be just as well off. He would get his compensation, but no compensation could suffice to the pupils who are cut short in the middle of their education, and who would have to go around looking for accommodation elsewhere and might be unable to find some other suitable school to take them in for two or three months, or for a term or more, at a very vital stage in their educational lives. Therefore, I think that some restriction will have to be introduced in Committee providing that premises that are in occupation, or that are used for such purposes as schools, should not be compulsorily acquired for the housing or accommodation of the Civic Guard. On the general principle of the Bill I agree it is necessary, and that complete powers ought to be given to the Ministry to take all proper premises that might be reasonably required for the housing of the Civic Guard.

There is just one point I would like to add to what Deputy FitzGibbon has said with regard to details of the application of the general right, with which naturally everybody would be in agreement. I hope the Minister will be able to give us some assurances that the derelict barracks of the old R.I.C., the majority of which were burned will be quickly rebuilt in order that the exercise of the provisions of this Bill might cause the least possible inconvenience in different parts of the country.

The particular case I have in mind is one, to my own knowledge, of two or three in which premises have been acquired. One case has reference to the Civic Guard, and the others to Army provisions. Premises have been acquired and no notice has been taken for a long time of claims for compensation. I will take the instance of the Civic Guard, and I do not know how far it may be typical of the others, but one such case like this should not occur. I have written to the Minister about it, but I did not even get an acknowledgment of my letter. I have had the facts brought before me by traders in this city who met together in regard to a certain shopkeeper in County Cavan, whose premises were taken over for the use of the Civic Guard, including, not only the shop but the living premises also. In that case, I think, the premises were taken early after the establishment of the Civic Guard. They have been in the possession of the Civic Guard for some months, with the consequence that the shopkeeper has been put out of business, and he has been unable to pay accounts which are owing to various traders in the city of Dublin, who have the legal right to put into operation the extreme and drastic regulations of this Dáil for the collection of that money. They consulted together, and having checked the facts, put them before me, and I lay them now before the Minister. No admission has been made even that the place has been acquired, no compensation has been made, and no rent has been paid. This person is faced with being dunned with the Law Courts in the matter. It is claimed—I do not know what truth there is in it and one could not discover without going to the locality —that there was a suitable building in which the Civic Guard could be housed. I mention that as a case which could easily be remedied. I have no doubt that the Minister is taking steps to see that justice is done. Seeing that that occurred, other cases may occur, and while it is absolutely essential that the police force should be adequately housed, I hope that care will be taken, in finding such premises, that the least inconvenience will be done. To that end I also hope that the police barracks in the past that were burned will be restored as speedily as possible.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Deputy Fitzgibbon's point about the schools is noted, and if the Deputy puts down an amendment for the Committee stage it can be discussed. We are as conscious as the Deputy is of the need for education in the country. That has, possibly, been brought home more forcibly to us than to any private Deputy. I doubt the wisdom of starting specifically to exclude any particular class of premises. It begins a process which, I think, can be extended, and it is always easy to put up a specific case for this class of premises and the other class of premises. I think it would be better to rely on the discretion of the administration not to make such mistakes, for instance, as the taking over of schools, and in all cases to look to where the least hardship and inconvenience lie. We have established, as I say, in face of very considerable difficulty, something over 400 stations, but it is right that I should point out that many of these stations are extremely unsatisfactory. Some units of the Guard are stationed in small and unsanitary houses, and other units in wings of destroyed buildings, and even in part occupation of a house, and other such unsuitable quarters. It is thought that it is bad for the discipline and morale of a young force to be housed like that in unsuitable and unsatisfactory premises.

Deputy Figgis may certainly rely on every effort from our Department to secure that the destroyed police barracks proper will be repaired. That matter is at present under consideration in the Ministry of Finance, and discussions are proceeding with regard to it. Deputy Figgis has quoted a Cavan case secondhand. He has no personal knowledge with regard to it, and neither have I. I will undertake to look it up. With regard to the Deputy's statement that a letter of his on the subject has not been acknowledged, that is a matter which I regret. I can only presume that it arises from the fact that enquiries are being made into the case, with a view to sending a satisfactory reply or a complete statement on the matter. The worst case of hardship which I have heard in connection with the accommodation of the Civic Guard came, not from Cavan, but from Mallow, and that was a matter of absolute necessity after every possible effort had been made to secure accommodation. It will be realised that in a town of some thousands of inhabitants, the establishment of a police station was simply a matter of urgency and of imperative necessity.

I would like to ask the Minister to indicate the relative proportion of the expense of his 800 stations as compared with the 1,200 of the R.I.C., and whether he would compare them as regards the Central Fund.

It does not arise on this Bill.

It does not arise, but it is information that the country would be very happy to have.

Would the Minister tell us whether his reference to an election taking place in a couple of months is to be taken literally or not?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I merely throw it out.

For anxious inquirers.

Is the effect of Sub-section 2, Section 3, regarding compensation for disturbance to be retrospective, and in considering the reasonableness of compensation will more than the question of rent be taken into consideration?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I was very anxious that the Bill should be retrospective, that it should cover any cases where premises have been already acquired. I was very anxious for that for more reasons than one. Certainly the intention of the Bill was that it should cover all cases up to the present where premises have been taken for accommodation of the Civic Guard, and on looking into the Bill between this and the Committee Stage I will take that point beyond all doubt, because certainly the provisions both for compensation and rent should date back further.

Question: "That the Civic Guard (Acquisition of Premises) Bill, 1923, be read a second time," put and agreed to.

When will the next stage be taken?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

The Bill is a matter of urgency from the point of view of civil administration. If I felt there was not likely to be many amendments I should decide on the next stage for Tuesday next.

I have indicated to the Minister the form my amendment will take, and he probably will consider it. In the case of the taking over of an occupied school there should be an appeal to the Minister for Education or some other authority than the Minister for Finance. I would give the appeal in the case of an occupied school to some authority that had education interests at heart. That would probably meet my case. If the Minister does not object to the short notice I give of my amendment, I have no objection to the Bill being taken on Tuesday.

There is an amendment that I may be requested by some people to put forward. In small towns where no houses are vacant and where tenants may be requested to leave the houses for the purpose of providing accommodation for the Civic Guard, will such tenants be entitled to some alternative accommodation?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

They certainly will be entitled to it.

Will you provide alternative accommodation?

Would it be covered by reasonable compensation?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

We would certainly be very slow to use the powers in any case where there was not any alternative accommodation, and you can take it that very careful consideration will be given to the class of premises likely to be taken as well as to all relevant circumstances. With regard to compensation, that will vary according to the hardships inflicted and there are provisions with regard to rent. In the long run we have to have an agreement on the principle that the public necessity and the public need in this matter override the individual. That is the underlying principle of the Bill, and I can only say that the most scrupulous care will be taken to see that the least possible hardship is inflicted. As to Deputy FitzGibbon's question, I will go into it with the officials of my Department between this and the Committee Stage. I would suggest to him, however, that an amendment mentioning schools specifically might merely have the effect of drawing attention to them as being the most suitable places.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 26th June.

May I ask what Order of the Day it is proposed to take for Tuesday. I am under the impression that it was arranged that the Public Safety Bill should be taken, but, as we have not yet had copies of the Bill, it is obvious there would not be proper time for putting down amendments.

The Public Safety Bill will be down only for Second Reading, and there is no occasion to have amendments ready for that day.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I put it down for Tuesday, but as there is a suggestion of agreement upon the Civic Guard Bill, we might get that Bill through all its stages, in addition to taking the Second Reading of the Public Safety Bill on Tuesday.

When will the Bill be in our hands?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

To-day. I think it is in the hands of some Deputies already.

The Bill is being sent out to Deputies this evening.

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