I move "That a sum not exceeding ten thousand seven hundred and seventy-eight pounds (£10,778) be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1924, for the salaries and expenses of the Transport Department of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, including certain payments in connection with railways." (£6,000 had been already voted on account).
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - TRANSPORT DEPARTMENT.
I do not know would I be in order in raising the question on this Vote regarding the facilities that are offered to traders and other people since the coming into being of the new Customs regulations. I have been informed by various traders and others——
I do not know if this Estimate has anything to do with that.
It has.
Perhaps it is the previous one.
In so far as it refers to any question of the Railway Companies, I think the Deputy is in order in raising it.
The question of facilities afforded by the Railway Companies.
Yes, and Steamboat Companies connected with them as well.
Do steamboats come into this?
It is all transport.
I want to get clear before we get on. This is railways, merely, is it?
Yes.
I suggest, in the case of Shipping Companies who are also Railway Companies, the question of Customs can come inside this Vote.
Quite right.
I am quite able to appreciate that.
My own impression is that if you have deferred Estimate 55 that all Estimates dealing with the Department ought to be deferred also for this reason. I hope I am in order in making the suggestion. What I wish to say is that before you come to deal with the particular items in an Estimate that the whole general survey of a Department ought to come under review before we come down to generalities and details, and I think if, under such an Estimate, such a discussion is at all in order it would come under No. 55 rather than under this sub-head or minor phases of the working of the Department. I certainly think, as I have said before, that this is one of the most vital phases of administration and it is hardly sufficient, I think, simply to discuss these things in detail without first having a general survey of the whole work of the Department. I think if No. 55 is to be deferred to a later date every matter that comes under this Department ought also to be deferred.
That is the suggestion. Is that agreed on?
I have no doubt Deputy Milroy is very interested in the Estimate for the Ministry, and he has been good enough to give me notice that he is so interested. I can assure him that when the general vote of the Ministry comes up to-morrow he will have full facility for discussing it. I shall provide him with information on every possible subject that can be raised, and which I hope he will find quite satisfactory, but I think that we ought to proceed with the Vote, if the Dáil wishes.
I support Deputy Milroy in his suggestion, in as much as this Vote says quite distinctly that it is for the Transport Department of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce. It may well be that some of these items of salaries may have to do with the Transport Department; we do not know. We accept your assurance that it is not, but if we had the names, offices and salaries before us, we would understand exactly. At any rate there is an Assistant Secretary in this Department, and there may be a Secretary over the whole Department, whose policy might come under consideration, and, therefore, I think, as the Vote on this Department of the Ministry has to be considered to-morrow, Deputy Milroy's point is a good one.
The point I wish to make is really a criticism, although a friendly criticism, of the way in which these Estimates are prepared. You have the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, then you have the Transport Department, and you have then the Marine Service, all phases of the one Department. Now, I contend that an opportunity should be given by which a comprehensive criticism and discussion of all the different phases of that Department should be in order.
It will be in order on the Vote for the Ministry of Industry and Commerce.
I assume, that would be the only occasion in which it would, but if we defer that and proceed with the Transport Department or the Marine Service Estimates, when we come to raise matters that arise out of these Estimates on the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, we may be informed that those things are already discussed; and that we must confine ourselves to the details in the particular Estimate. I think to defer this No. 55, and to proceed with the others, 56 and 57, is really putting the car before the horse, and would lead to confusion in the consideration of the working of the service and administration of this Department. I would certainly urge that if we defer 55 we ought also to defer this.
I suggest that the future organisation, or reorganisation, of this particular Department depends to a large extent, perhaps, on the policy of the Ministry, or any statement the Minister may have to make regarding the future of the railways. I think we are entitled, in view of the promises made many months ago, to hear from the Minister, or the Ministry, or the Executive Council, some statement regarding the present position of the railway companies, and their agreement or failure to agree regarding the grouping scheme, or the policy of the Government in spite of such a failure, if there has been a failure, and as to whether there will be a grouping up in the future of this Department, its enlargement or otherwise. For that reason, and by reason of the fact that it is a subordinate Department of the Ministry, the two Departments ought to be taken together, or one after the other.
I really had no intention of excluding Deputy Milroy and other Deputies from raising the question when the Vote comes under consideration. In order to save the time of the Dáil, if it is the general wish, I have no objection to the Estimates being left over.
That is to say, that Estimates 55, 56 and 57 are to be left over until to-morrow.
They do really swing or hinge together.
Will that also apply to Vote No. 31?
As there is going to be a discussion on Estimate 55 to-morrow, and as it will actually range over the whole ground, we would be, to some extent, wasting time in discussing it now.
Progress to be reported.