The Public Safety Bill, with certain amendments, has been passed by the Seanad, and if Deputies would agree to take it before entering upon other matters on the agenda I shall be glad. I propose to move that the Dáil accept the amendments made by the Seanad.
PUBLIC SAFETY (EMERGENCY POWERS) BILL, 1923. - SEANAD AMENDMENTS.
We have only had these now handed round, and inasmuch as they deal with very important matters I submit it is not in order to ask the Dáil to take amendments of this kind without due notice.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
I do not propose to move the amendments en bloc, but to move them, if the Deputy so wishes, one by one. I am sure the Deputy understands the exact effect of the amendments on the Bill.
That is not the point. The point is that we are asked by the Minister to allow the business of the day to be suspended for the purpose of introducing amendments of an important character upon a Bill which has already passed the Dáil. The Standing Order reads as follows:—
"Where a Bill transmitted from Dáil Eireann to Seanad Eireann shall have passed through all its stages in Seanad Eireann, and shall have been sent back to Dáil Eireann with amendments made in Seanad Eireann, or, in the case of Money Bills, with recommendations made by Seanad Eireann, such amendment or recommendations, as the case may be, shall be printed and circulated to Teachtai of Dáil Eireann, and Dáil Eireann shall, in Committee, consider and report on such amendments, as the case may be."
I submit the procedure, as required in the case of amendments coming from Seanad Eireann, is that they should come up as on Committee Stage in the ordinary course of a Bill which has passed Second Reading.
Is the Deputy's objection an objection to taking the Seanad amendments as the first order to-day?
My objection is to taking them without regular notice.
That is to say, if taken only with regular notice they could not be taken until Friday. Is that the position?
That is for you to decide. That is my contention.
That is the strict interpretation of the Standing Order unless the Standing Orders are suspended or some agreement is come to to take these amendments, if not immediately, then on shorter notice.
I suggest that as we have only just received these amendments an effective compromise might be made that would meet Deputy Johnson, and I imagine might be satisfactory to the Minister for Home Affairs; that is, that if these amendments were printed and circulated we could consider them the first thing to-morrow. We have only just received them, and have not had time to read them.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
I will read Standing Order 97, and I wonder if it bears on this matter:—"If a message from Seanad Eireann requires any action to be taken or thing to be done by Dáil Eireann it shall be set down on the Order Paper next thereafter prepared, and shall be considered accordingly, provided that in case of special urgency Dáil Eireann may consider such message at an earlier period."
That Standing Order deals with messages, and not with Bills.
A Bill is always accompanied by a message.
There is a special Order dealing with messages, and a separate Order dealing with Bills.
Yes, that is the case.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
I move that the Standing Orders be suspended to enable the Public Safety (Emergency Powers) Bill, 1923, to be considered by the Dáil, with the amendments made in the Seanad.
I second the motion.
I want to raise a question of Order on this matter. The Minister has moved that the Standing Orders be suspended. I submit that that is a motion that is not acceptable, and that cannot be accepted, except by general consent. Standing Orders are made for the conduct of the business of the House, and members are presumed to be acting under these Standing Orders. Members are provided with Order Papers informing them of the business of the day, and it is not competent, I submit, for any member of the House to move that the Standing Orders be suspended. It is only in special circumstances, when there is no opposition, and when there is general consent, and even it is doubtful then whether Standing Orders ought to be suspended; but certainly only when there is general consent are Standing Orders to be suspended. Otherwise, by the vote of any temporary majority any Bill can be rushed through; anything can be done in the House if a temporary majority is capable of carrying an order for the suspension of Standing Orders. I submit it is quite incompetent for any member of the House to move the suspension of the Standing Orders, or that that motion, if carried, could be given effect to. Standing Orders are the rules regulating the business of the House and are equivalent to an act of the Dáil, and cannot, I submit, be suspended merely at the call of a member, even though he be a Minister, on no notice, or any sudden motion that might be sprung upon the House.
The Standing Order prescribes: "In cases of urgent necessity, of which the Ceann Comhairle shall be the judge, any Standing Order or Orders of Dáil Eireann may be suspended for the days' sitting on motion duly made and seconded with or without notice, provided that such motion has the support of the majority of the Teachtái of Dáil Eireann who are qualified to vote."
That provides for a motion made without notice, provided that there be a case of urgent necessity. The Minister, I take it, regards this as a matter of urgent necessity.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
The consideration of the Bill with the amendments from the Seanad is a matter of urgent necessity. There are many thousands of prisoners in military custody. They have been in military custody for months, and there was no statutory authority for their detention. They were detained under the common law powers inherent in the military, arising out of the military situation, and arising out of the condition of war or armed revolt. When and if the courts decide that a condition of war or armed revolt no longer exists, the position would be that we would not have legal or statutory power to detain these prisoners. I submit that the immediate and indiscriminate release around the country of these prisoners, who have been waging war on the State by the most ruthless methods, and who have been waging war on the economic life of the country by all the means in their power, would be a great public disaster, and would have reactions on the peace, security and commercial life of the country for which the Dáil would be slow to take responsibility. The consideration of this Bill, with the amendments made in the Seanad, is, therefore, a matter of urgency, a matter of extreme urgency, which the Dáil in its capacity as representing the people of this country, and as guardians of the interests of this country now and in the future, cannot afford to ignore. I claim that there is abundant cause and excuse for a suspension of the Standing Orders to enable this Bill to be considered.
The argument of the Minister amounts to this, that he desires a certain Bill to become an Act within a given time to make his actions legal and to overcome the judgements of the Courts, and that that is a matter of urgent necessity calling for special procedure on the part of the Dáil. It may be an urgent necessity in his view to have certain acts covered by the law, but it is not a matter of urgent necessity from the point of view of the procedure of the House. We have had certain amendments circulated within the last half-hour. Bear in mind that the Dáil has passed the Bill, has considered its judgment upon that Bill, and decided that that Bill was a perfect measure as it proceeded from this House. The majority of the Dáil were satisfied with the measure as it left this House. It then goes to the Seanad; the Seanad alters it, considers that we did our work badly, that the Ministry and its majority did not do its work satisfactorily. Then the Bill has to come back, and without notice the previous work of the Dáil is to be altered simply because he considers it a matter of urgent necessity. I want to call attention to the Standing Order (Order read.) Unless that proviso is complied with I submit that it is not competent even to receive—certainly not competent to suspend the Standing Order—under the Standing Orders that we are acting.
The question is whether the motion should be received to suspend the Standing Orders for this particular purpose. The motion cannot be received and put from the Chair unless a case of urgent necessity is made, or unless the Ceann Comhairle shall judge that the case is one of urgent necessity. The question of urgent necessity is one which has not to be considered in relation to an individual. In this case the Minister for Home Affairs, who is, by virtue of his office, responsible for the maintenance of public order in the country, makes as a case of urgent necessity that amendments from the Seanad to a certain Bill shall be considered this evening. That has been done before; that is to say, amendments from the Seanad have been considered without due notice given. The Minister's plea, when we consider the duties which devolve upon him, cannot be ignored by me as the Ceann Comhairle. I think, therefore a case has been made out for the putting of this motion. The motion, therefore, is: "That the Standing Orders be suspended to enable the Seanad amendments to the Public Safety (Emergency Powers) Bill to be considered before we take up the business on the Order Paper."
Motion put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 42; Níl, 14.
Tá
- Liam T Mac Cosgair.
- Donchadh O Guaire.
- Seán O Maolruaidh.
- Seán O Duinnín.
- Micheál O hAonghusa.
- Seán O hAodha.
- Séamus Breathnach.
- Pádraig Mag Ualghairg.
- Peader Mac a' Bháird.
- Darghal Figes.
- Deasmhumhain Mac Gearailt.
- Micheál de Duram.
- Seán Mac Garaidh.
- Risteárd O Maolchatha.
- Pilib Mac Cosgair.
- Domhnall Mac Cárthaigh.
- Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha.
- Earnán Altún.
- Gearóid Mac Giobúin.
- Liam Thrift.
- Eoin Mac Néill.
- Liam Mag Aonghusa.
- Pádraig O hOgáin.
- Pádraic O Máille.
- Seosamh O Faoileacháin.
- Fionán O Loingsigh.
- Séamus O Cruadhlaoich.
- Criostóir O Broin.
- Caoimhghin O hUigín.
- Proinsias Bulfin.
- Tomás Mac Artuir.
- Liam O hAodha.
- Proinsias Mag Aonghusa.
- Eamon O Dúgáin.
- Peadar O hAodha.
- Séamus O Murchadha.
- Liam Mac Sioghaird.
- Tomás O Domhnaill.
- Earnán de Blaghd.
- Uinseann de Faoite.
- Séamus de Burca.
- Micheál O Dubhghaill.
Níl
- Tomás de Nogla.
- Riobárd O Deaghaidh.
- Liam de Róiste.
- Tomás Mac Eoin.
- Seoirse Ghabháin Uí Dhubhthaigh.
- Liam O Briain.
- Tomás O Conaill.
- Aodh O Cúlacháin.
- Séamus Eabhróid.
- Liam O Daimhín.
- Cathal O Seanáin.
- Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
- Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
- Domhnall O Ceallacháin.
Motion declared carried.
May I ask, A Chinn Chomhairle, does that fulfil the condition?
It fulfils the condition actually under the Standing Order. Eighty-five Deputies, including myself, have taken their seats. One —Deputy Hales—is dead; three-Deputies Brennan, Duffy and Liddy—have resigned, making the membership qualified to vote under this Standing Order eighty. Forty-one, therefore, is the requisite number.
May I raise a question in view of the fact that that decision has been given? The Constitution provides under Article 22 that all matters to be decided in the Dáil are to be decided by a majority vote. A Standing Order cannot, in my view, make a provision which intereferes with the condition that is laid down in the Constitution. So that the question might not become a precedent, I would like to register my own personal conviction that the Standing Order contravenes, to some extent, the Constitution, and is, in consequence, of no effect. Lest it be taken as a precedent and rule the proceedings of the Dáil in future, I think it is due that I should make that interruption.
Article 22 of the Constitution says:—
All matters in each House shall, save as otherwise provided by this Constitution, be determined by a majority of the votes of the members present, other than the Chairman or presiding member, who shall have and exercise a casting vote in the case of an equality of votes. The number of members necessary to constitute a meeting of either House for the exercise of its powers shall be determined by its Standing Orders.
On the question of precedent, the Standing Orders are made by the Dáil. If the Standing Orders can be altered by any momentary majority, then it is folly to have any Standing Orders. We are asked, in that case, to simply throw the procedure of the House at any time into the hands of the temporary majority. If without notice business of an important character can be transacted, the proceedings of the House become farcical. There is no use in having Standing Orders if these Standing Orders can be suspended by any temporary majority. I take it that the intention in having Standing Orders is to lay down rules of procedure, so as to enable the House to conduct its proceedings in a proper way. If those Orders can be cancelled by any chance majority, then we had better cancel the Standing Orders and call them Debating Society rules.
May I draw your attention, A Chinn Comhairle, to Article 20 of the Constitution, which provides that each House shall make its own rules and Standing Orders. I submit that that enables the House to make an exception within the meaning of another provision in the Constitution referred to in Article 23.
With regard to the question raised by Deputy Johnson, I say that the Standing Orders are, notwithstanding, sufficient to provide for such cases as he has mentioned and that is that the Dáil would be at the mercy of a majority. The Standing Orders can so provide, and this Standing Order which has been suspended is one which provides for the case such as quoted by him, that a Minister or a Deputy, can move the suspension of the Standing Orders on an urgent matter, and the decision on the question of urgency rests within the discretion of the Ceann Comhairle. I do not think that there is anything in the point raised by Deputy Duffy which calls for comment.
There is a provision in this Standing Order which has been availed of to suspend the Orders of the Day and the Standing Orders with regard to a matter of urgent necessity. The question as to whether the Standing Order which prescribes that a motion must have the support of the majority of the Teachtái of Dáil Eireann who are qualified to vote is in contravention of Article 22 of the Constitution, is one which might arise and upon which a decision would have to be given if this motion had been carried by a majority smaller than a majority of 41 votes for the motion. When the Standing Order was passed I did not advert, and I think nobody in the Dáil adverted, to Article 22 of the Constitution, but on reading it, it would seem that the Standing Order does contravene the Constitution. If that were held of course the Constitution would override the Standing Orders, just as the Constitution would override legislation which would be in contravention of the terms of the Constitution. However, in this particular a case of a majority has been got which satisfies the Standing Order, without prejudice to the question of the validity of the Order itself, considered in relation to the Constitution.
Would you inform the Dáil again what is the motion that has been moved by the Minister in regard to these amendments?
"That Standing Orders be suspended to enable the Dáil to proceed to the consideration of the Seanad amendments to the Public Safety Bill before proceeding with the Orders of the Day." The Orders of the Day are on the printed sheet. In accordance with the motion, therefore, the Seanad amendments to the Public Safety (Emergency Powers) Bill can be proceeded with immediately. Under the Standing Orders the Dáil will go into Committee for their consideration.