Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Nov 1923

Vol. 5 No. 11

CIVIL SERVICE REGULATION (No. 2) BILL, 1923.—SECOND STAGE.

This is a Bill to make permanent provision for the method to be adopted in making appointments to the Civil Service. It provides that, generally speaking, admission shall be by open, competitive examination. That is the system which will on the whole give us the best service. Alternative methods might be put up and it might be possible to have panels for selection which would give us as good a Civil Service and leave us a choice as well. But that would be subject to suspicion at all times, and it would be very difficult to ensure that at no time was there ground for suspicion. Consequently, the Bill is brought in in the form in which it stands. In certain cases, power is taken to have the examination confined to special classes. That is desirable. For instance, at the present time it is desirable, in view of Army demobilisation, that certain appointments should be confined to men with Army service. We are able, with the machinery that this Bill provides, to have competitive examinations for the various candidates in a class which are eligible, and to get the best possible material from the class to which, for public reasons, we desire to confine the appointments. In certain other cases examination may be dispensed with— that is, in cases where there are professional or other peculiar qualifications. It is quite obvious that, while for the junior posts and the ordinary run of posts, competitive examination is good enough, there are positions for which you could not rely on getting the best or nearly the best candidate by any method of examination. There is a class of post which requires a man of experience, administrative ability, certain force of character, and knowledge of the world, and you might easily have the best candidate for that class of position surpassed in examination by a bookworm or quite a young student, who would be altogether unfit for the post.

It is provided that in cases like that, and in other special cases, it will be possible to admit persons to the Civil Service otherwise than by examination if a certificate is issued by the Civil Service Commission, and they can refuse it when any special name is proposed to them. That certificate must be gazetted, so that Clause 6 does not provide what might be described as a "back door entrance" to the Civil Service. Nobody can be admitted secretly or privately to the Civil Service by the operation of this clause. It simply gives an alternative to the examination system in certain cases where examinations would not be satisfactory. It cannot be used, and will not be used, for ordinary appointments to the Civil Service. We have heard a lot of talk of the Commission which was appointed under the Act, which this Bill is intended to replace, not having held examinations. The present time is not the time to rush into the holding of examinations and to recruit large numbers of people to the permanent Civil Service. We have really to finish our stocktaking and to see what services we are going to retain and whether we require any additional permanent Civil Servants.

We have considerable numbers of temporary Civil Servants, and if services are to be dispensed with these Civil Servants can be dispensed with. If we add unduly to the number of permanent Civil Servants we would be tying up our own hands. It is not possible, as many people would desire us, to rush in and hold examinations, right, left and centre. Certain examinations have been held. For instance, there have been examinations for Customs and Excise, and they were confined to men with Army service. Fifty posts were offered there, and there were four posts offered in the National Health Insurance Department. The staff of the Revenue Department is, of course, a staff that has grown greatly, and it was found necessary and justifiable to make certain permanent appointments in the Revenue Service. An open examination to qualify men for appointments as County Surveyors has been held by the Civil Service Commissioners. There have been examinations in the Civic Guard for men to act as Inspectors of Weights and Measures. Examinations are being held for women Writing Assistants who will largely do certain work thrown on the Land Commission by the passing of the Land Act. Some of the appointments to these positions will be reserved for women who hold temporary posts in the Government Service, and other posts will be open to girls of school age.

There will be examinations also for technical appointments in certain departments of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce. Examinations are also pending, limited to boy messengers in the Post Office, in connection with a number of permanent posts as postmen. For the future, appointments of Shorthand Clerks and Typists will be made, in Dublin, from a list compiled as a result of competitive examination. As far as possible we will keep to the competitive examination system for all appointments. It will be more satisfactory in every respect. We will know where we are, and the examinations will give an equal opportunity to everybody. In the past Typists and Shorthand-Typists have been recruited in a rather casual way, and although the appointments are only from week to week, we feel that the best thing to do is to draw up a list as the result of competitive examinations and take from that list in order of merit.

The Bill has no new features. It was before the Dáil, and I do not think it was much discussed when it was last brought forward. It continues the system with which we are familiar. It has worked well with the British, and has given them an efficient and very capable Civil Service. It has done the work of administration exceedingly well, on the whole. I believe with us the system will also work well, and as time goes on we will be able to get a good Civil Service at as cheap a rate as will be consistent with requirements. The system will give a chance to all who may aspire to enter the Civil Service, and it will give fair play all round.

I am in entire agreement with practically every word the Minister for Finance said as to the desirability of competitive examination. It is not the most perfect test, but, broadly speaking, it is a test that works best over a wide field. I agree with him also that you must settle those things some time ahead, otherwise the candidates and the people training for the examination will not know where they are. There are one or two details, however, to which he did not refer, and which seem to me desirable to comment upon, even on the Second Reading of the Bill. There is no provision whatever for a pension for the Civil Service Commissioners. You pension the Judges and the Civil Servants, but the people who are to be the judges and to select your Civil Servants are not to have any pension at all. I am not anxious to encourage pensions, but it does seem an anomaly. You are conferring responsible functions on officials who receive no pension whatever. Secondly, there is the provision that these Commissioners are to be paid out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas. That means that year after year they will come on the estimates, and their salaries will have to be voted here. Everyone of us who has a constituent who has failed to pass an examination will be liable to raise complaints. One aggrieved person may say: "Why did so and so get more marks than my Tommy?" All these matters may be brought before the Dáil. That, I think, is not a wise provision. These Commissioners, who are virtually judges, should be paid from the Central Fund and not from the Estimates every year.

The third provision is a more remarkable one, and it differs entirely from the British method. It is that the Commissioners shall hold office during the pleasure of the Executive Council, and may be removed from their posts at any time the Executive Council may think fit. I believe in England and in Canada they have permanent tenure, and it seems to me most undesirable that men in this position, a position of grave and serious responsibility, should feel they are liable to be removed from their posts and sent away, without any pension, at the pleasure of the Executive Council. I do not mistrust the Executive Council, but I think it means that with every change of Government there will be a tendency to change the Commissioners. These are important and well-paid posts, and it is not unlikely that there will be supporters of the Government then in power looking for these posts. I do not think the Commissioners should be changed at the pleasure of the Executive Council. I do not say that any Government would do it, but it makes it possible for any Government to introduce the American spoils system. If the Commissioners are to be changed with each Government, the American spoils system will be introduced. I do not think anybody will contend that that system has worked well in the United States. I do not propose to oppose this Bill on the Second Reading, but at a later stage I will submit amendments.

I have no intention either of opposing the Second Reading of this Bill, but I am surprised and disappointed that the Ministry have not taken the opportunity, in introducing the Bill, of extending competitive examinations to a much greater extent than is suggested here. As my friend on the left here has said, competitive examination may not always be the very best test of a man's capacity for the work, but, on the whole, it is the best we have got. The Government have had brought before their notice from time to time recommendations of certain important bodies with regard to the extension of competitive examination to the medical service. It is with regard to these recommendations that I wish, for the moment, to address myself. During the sitting of the Convention in 1917, the Convention, by a very large majority, which included practically all the representatives of the South and West, made a very strong recommendation for the extension of the competitive examination to all classes, and particularly included the medical service. In 1920 the Public Health Council, appointed to draft a Public Health Bill, also made a strong recommendation which was unanimous, and it reads: "The establishment of an Irish Medical Service appointed by competitive examination and paid by the Ministry, from which will be provided the medical and veterinary officers of health, the medical and surgical staffs of the various public hospitals, sanatoria, asylums, etc., as well as the medical officers engaged in the treatment of insured and poor persons."

When the resolution came before the delegates of the Medical Profession, representing the entire profession in the country, it was unanimously adopted by these delegates. Furthermore, a referendum had been taken in 1910 of the Medical Profession in Ireland, and 90 per cent. of a very extensive poll of the profession were in favour of the Medical Service being open to competitive examination. As late as a few months ago the General Council of the County Councils in Ireland made a similar recommendation, namely, that all these State appointments should be gained only by competitive examinations. There is not any question that competitive examinations would do away with one or two things. On the question of corruption in the past, we heard from time to time that it was possible for a man with a cheque book in his pocket to go around the country, and distribute cheques varying from £10 to £20 to secure a vote. Competitive examinations would do away with that class of thing. But far more desirable is it, that we would be able to keep at home in Ireland the very best of our young medical men. If the appointments are open to competitive examinations, and if the men are decently paid, we shall keep here the best of our men instead of having them go over to the other side where they will be better remunerated. I take it for granted that what the Ministry have set before themselves is the word "Efficiency" as the text for all their preachings. I do not think they can get satisfactory efficiency in any other way than by means of competitive examinations. As far as the medical service is concerned, one reason why I am speaking to-day is that we were promised a Public Health Bill. This I hope will be coming before us in the course of the next few months. Under the Public Health Bill there will be certain provisions made for new appointments. I would rather see the Bill torn to shreds if it merely means putting into jobs men who are inefficient; if it does not mean that we are going to get the very best men we can to work in the interests of Public Health, I would rather see the Bill scrapped. Furthermore, in connection with this, I presume that it might be possible on the introduction of a Bill to make provision for the establishment of an examination. As Major Bryan Cooper has said, it is well to look a little beforehand, and I should have thought that if the Ministry intends to have a competitive examination in the future, they would have looked a little bit ahead and given these Commissioners, that they are now appointing, power to arrange for, and conduct examinations on lines that can be easily set forth in consultation with the bodies which are interested. I finish by saying that I hope before the Bill comes before us in Committee the Government will have taken these matters into consideration and perhaps do something to please the Medical Profession, and the other bodies who have suggested competitive examinations.

There are just two points that I want to raise. One is regarding the remarks of Major Bryan Cooper, which seemed to me to be directed to a Bill which might have contained provisions for making the Civil Service Commissioners a body, which I for one rather suggest they should be made, to make appointments. So far as I can read the Bill, it is rather a body to set and conduct examinations. In that case I am afraid I am not able to follow him regarding the necessity for pensioning these Commissioners, and paying them out of the Central Fund, as contrasted with the proposal in the Bill. The other point is a matter which the Minister could reassure the Dáil upon, or give us some information upon. That is whether it is the intention to place under the test of competitive examinations the recent appointments to the Civil Service.

It seems to me that it is, perhaps, desirable that some qualifications, which would be found out by examination, should be put forward, and made applicable to those who have entered the Civil Service during the past two or three years. Perhaps the Minister will give us some information on that point.

With reference to what Sir James Craig said, the Bill gives power to the Civil Service Commissioners, when requested, to hold examinations for any position under any authority or authorities. It will be a matter for the Local Government Department, in its Bill dealing with Public Health, to make arrangements that the appointments shall be made as the result of competitive examination, if it so desires. This Bill simply sets up the machinery for the holding of those examinations, if it is desired to avail of it. I do not think it will be desirable, in this Bill, to deal with the local administration. It will be out of place to go any further until we come to the Committee Stage. With reference to the permanence of the Civil Service Commissioners, they are no more permanent in Great Britain than it is proposed to have them here. I do not think it is desirable they should be put into the position of Judges. They do carry out a very important function, but I think it is entirely wrong to assume that we are going to have corrupt Governments in the future. If we are going to have corrupt government no safeguard you will put in the Bill will save you from that. You must believe that the Government will carry out the law in the spirit and in the letter. This law does away with the question of the patronage of Ministers, and you must assume that the Ministers who will be appointed by the Sovereign Assembly of the Irish Nation in the future, will not attempt to get behind any decision come to; that they will not strive to do things they are forbidden to do and not expected to do. There is really no use in talking about paper safeguards. There used to be a lot of talk about paper safeguards in the past, but when there were no paper safeguards it was found that we were just as well off without them. The idea of setting up a Civil Service Commission in a very high position and making them Commissioners, equivalent to Judges of the High Court, and all that sort of thing, arises from a desire for paper safeguards which would be no good. Now, in regard to salary and pension, if a Civil Service Commissioner is paid a salary, I agree that he should be paid a pension, and I think the Bill enables a pension to be paid. In fact, the present Civil Service Commissioners are not paid any salary. Two of them are Civil Servants and the other is An Ceann Comhairle. The matter of pensions is not pressing and it arises in no special way. With regard to recent appointments, nobody can come into the permanent Civil Service except by way of open competitive examination, or Clause 6. In regard to recent appointments, if they were professional appointments they will come before the Civil Service Commissioners in the usual way. If they are appointments that do not come under Sub-Section (a), Clause 6, then there might be some that would come under Sub-Section (b), but the Civil Service Commissioners will have to be satisfied that it is in the public interest that they should be appointed without examination. There have been no appointments to the permanent Civil Service in recent years. Anybody who has been taken on his only temporary. He can only become permanent in one or two ways. So there is nothing to fear in that respect. In normal times it would be probably quite sufficient to have two or three of the higher Civil Servants acting as a Commission, but as times are not normal, and as we have not all got used to carrying on the business of Government as a normal matter, we asked An Ceann Comhairle if he would kindly act on this Commission, so that we would have some person who was independent and outside the influence of the Government on it.

There can, as I say, be no admission to the Civil Service otherwise than by competitive examination, unless the Civil Service Commissioners are prepared, after consideration, to grant their certificate and to have that certificate published in the "Gazette."

Question—"That the Bill be now read a second time"—put and agreed to.
Order for Committee Stage, Thursday, 22nd November.
Barr
Roinn