I should like to get the remaining stages of the Bill now, as it would be well to get it through before the Christmas holidays if possible, as many important matters may arise on it.
DÁIL IN COMMITTEE. - DÁIL RESUMES.
Bill reported.
Is there any objection to taking the remaining stages to-day?
DEPUTIES
"Agreed."
May I suggest it would be desirable that in adopting this course, if not to-day, at any rate in the future, that the formality of moving the suspension of Standing Orders be complied with. The question may arise some day or another.
I am taking the attitude that if objection comes from any single Deputy the remaining stages cannot be taken. Unanimous consent is required.
There being no objection, the Standing Orders are suspended to enable the Minister to move the motion for the Fourth Stage.
I move that the Bill be now taken for final consideration.
I beg to second.
May I ask, at this stage, if the Minister has yet considered the question raised by me: that is the question of the Local Authorities being responsible for the Superannuation of Rate Collectors who refused to do what they were told to do by the Local Authorities in the year 1920. The President is here and perhaps he could enlighten the Dáil on that matter. On the last occasion that I spoke on this matter I told the Dáil that this cost the County Council of Wexford 3d. in the £. I found I made a great mistake, because it cost them 9d., in the £, and as this is a national matter —I do not want to keep these people out of anything they are entitled to in law—and as the Council acted on the express directions given by the Government of the time, which was recognised by the Wexford County Council, the present Government, I think, ought to be responsible for the superannuation of these men.
Before I could give a final decision on this matter, I should have all the evidence before me. On the fact stated by the Deputy, I am very sympathetically inclined towards this attitude, and I intend to bring the matter before the Minister for Finance. It is not altogether in my hands.
I want to know will this Bill give the Minister power to act?
I understand this matter has been the subject of arbitration, and that will complicate the situation, and I do not know exactly what effect it will have.
Am I to understand from the Minister's reply to Deputy Corish that he does not in any way propose to deprive these Rate Collectors of the decision already come to, and that he does not intend to deprive them of the rights which follow upon the decision which has already been given by this Arbitration Court, but rather that it is a question as to the source from which they shall receive it—whether it shall be from the County Council or from the Government?
The question was where the compensation was to come from, and I understand Deputy Corish's claim is that the Local Authorities should be relieved from all liability with regard to this. There are two sides, I think, to this question. First of all the Local Authority got service from these officers, in some cases over a great number of years, and it has a certain contingent liability for the services that had been rendered during that time, and the only case the Deputy can possibly make is whether or not, in view of the special circumstances of the times, it should make up the difference between the normal moral liability of the Local Authority and that which was imposed upon the Local Authority by reason of certain action having been dictated from Headquarters. In reviewing that particular aspect of the situation it ought to be borne in mind that Local Authorities generally were faced with bankruptcy, were it not for the action of the Government of the day—Dáil Eireann—advising and directing that certain action should be taken by the Local Authorities, and by reason of the action taken the Local Authorities have not sustained one farthing of a loss during the whole of that war period. Whoever else lost, and many lost money and property, the Local Authorities lost nothing, and supposing this was a slightly unfair impost to ask from them now, I say it is an impost for which they have been very well safeguarded, and for which their interests were at no time in jeopardy.
Looking at the matter entirely from the point of view of the State, what has happened? Something like, I suppose, ten million pounds' worth of damage was done. In the ordinary way that damage would have been a State loss, but through the action of the State Government which directed Local Authorities to take these actions and through the negotiations which this Government undertook with the British Government, not alone were Local Authorities reimbursed in respect of the grants that had been withheld, but also liability was undertaken by the British Government for the damage inflicted on the country, and generally speaking, looking over the awards that have been made and the amounts that have been paid by the British on the one side, and by the Irish Government on the other, their proportion of it is in the ratio of 2 to 1. That is to say, that out of every three pounds' worth of damage done, we are liable for one pound, and the British Government for two pounds. I think, in view of that fact, that for two years, or possibly three years, no Local Authority was called upon to pay any contribution towards criminal and malicious injuries, and no Local Authority during that period lost a single sixpence. I think, therefore, that this claim on behalf of Local Authorities is not made with a good grace, and I think that on reflection the Deputy will not press it.
What the President has said is all very well, but I think he will admit that a special rate of nine-pence in the pound, imposed by a Local Authority on the ratepayers of a county at a time when they are put to the very pin of their collar to make ends meet, is a very big impost. The people in the County Wexford expect, in view of the fact that the Irish Government at the time issued these orders, that the Government at least should bear their share of the cost. I want to know at this stage if the Government is prepared to receive representations from the Wexford Co. Council in connection with this matter. What I want to know is if the Government is taking power under this Bill which will enable it to consider representations in connection with this very important matter. I do not think that is an unreasonable request to make.
I could undertake to receive representations, but, as Deputy Figgis says, it must be without prejudice.
As far as I am concerned I do not quarrel with Deputy Corish's request. What I would like to get a perfectly clear answer about is this, whether it is the intention of the Government to deprive these Rate Collectors of the rights they have received as a result of the decision of this Arbitration Court? That is my concern.
As far as that question is concerned, the Government has no intention now, or at any time, of contravening the law.
On a point of explanation, I desire to make this clear: That not now, or at any other time, have I approached this question from the point of view of doing these people out of anything they are entitled to It is the source from which the superannuation is to come that I am principally concerned with.
Question: "That the Bill be received for final consideration," put and agreed to.
I move that the Bill do now pass.
Agreed.
Ordered—That the Bill be sent to the Seanad.