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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Jan 1924

Vol. 6 No. 4

DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - PUBLIC SAFETY (POWERS OF ARREST AND DETENTION) TEMPORARY POWERS BILL, 1923. RE-COMMITTED.

I beg to move the following amendment:—

In Section 7, page 4, line 39, after the word "Commandant" to add the words "who may be specifically empowered in any particular case by the Ministry of Defence to delegate his powers under this Act to any member of the military forces of Saorstát Eireann not below the rank of sergeant save and except in such cases where a military force has been detailed by the order of a person so empowered to arrest any person or persons in which case every member of such force shall be deemed to possess the powers granted by this Act."

The necessity for this amendment was fully gone into yesterday, but Deputy Johnson may have some further remarks to make to-day.

I wonder whether the phraseology of this amendment has been carefully considered since yesterday? It is intended, it will be noted, to add these words to Section 7 after the word "Commandant." Section 7 is a definition clause to explain certain phrases, and what certain terms mean, and we are asked to insert in a definition clause a sentence which includes these words: "Save and except in such cases where a military force has been detailed by the order of a person so empowered to arrest any person or persons in which case every member of such force shall be deemed to possess the powers granted by this Act." I submit, as a matter of order, that this amendment, if it is to be considered and discussed, ought to be considered in the body of the Bill and not in a definition clause. It is, as a matter of fact, extending the powers of certain soldiers and cannot be considered as part of the definition of who is a responsible officer. Before going further I would ask whether it is in order to add to Section 7 a clause which extends the powers referred to in the earlier stages of the Bill to particular people?

I submit that the clause is really only a definition clause. It is one the purpose of which is to define a responsible officer. A responsible officer is defined as a Commandant so far as the military are concerned, and then you define the type of officer lower than a Commandant who may, in any circumstances, have to be regarded as a responsible officer. From the point of view of any other clause in the Bill in which you simply mention a responsible officer and what powers you give him, there does not seem to be any necessity for giving any special authority in any statutory way to a particular officer of any kind to delegate powers. There is automatic delegation of powers in many matters for this specific purpose. A clause is necessary to indicate who is a responsible officer. The clause definitely states it, and it puts limitations as to the manner in which these powers can be delegated, but it does nothing to point out what or who may be regarded as a responsible officer for the purpose of taking action within the terms of the Bill. I submit that although the phraseology may not be what we usually meet with in a clause such as this, the actual amendment does nothing but indicate for the purpose of the Bill types of people whom it is desirable to regard as responsible officers.

On a point of order, I would direct attention to the last three lines in relation to the clause as a whole: "In this Act the expression responsible officer means an officer of a police force ... or an officer of the military forces, not being below the rank of Commandant, who may be specifically empowered ... save and except in such cases where a military force has been detailed by the order of a person so empowered to arrest any person or persons." Now, it may be argued up to that point that this is a definition clause, but then we come to the words: "In which case every member of such force shall be deemed to possess the powers granted by this Act." I submit that is going beyond the limits set down in our Standing Orders, because it changes the intention of Section 2, which speaks of a responsible officer. It says that in certain cases every member of the force shall be deemed to possess the powers granted by this Act which, in Section 2, were confined to certain people of certain rank. I ask you to rule whether the amendment as it stands is in order, particular consideration being given to this last phrase.

I think it was made clear yesterday that we were anxious to restrain or restrict the use of military in as great a portion of the country as we possibly could, and that there are only limited portions of the country over which it was proposed to give these powers of delegation to an officer of the rank of Commandant or higher.

May I suggest, without discussing the merits, that we should decide the question of whether this is in order or not at this stage.

The point is whether if a Lieutenant is sent out in charge of a party of men for the arrest of certain specific persons in circumstances that induce the scattering of his party and the acting of one or two soldiers separately, a private soldier in such a position must be regarded as a responsible officer for the actual arrest and detention, even for a space of time, of the party he is sent out to look for.

If the Minister can show that this refers only to a definition of powers and does not give any special powers to ordinary members of the military forces to partake in arrests, then the lines of the amendment would be in order.

I submit, A Leas-Chinn Chomhairle, that it is for you to decide definitely whether this is in order, and not if so-and-so is in order, —whether it is in fact within the Rules of Order that this amendment, or proposed amendment, which purports to do certain things, is in order at this stage of the Bill.

If it would meet the Deputy's objection, the amendment might be altered to read: "Every member of such forces shall be deemed to possess the powers of arrest and detention granted by this Act."

I will discuss that point later. I am now dealing with a question of Order.

I think the first thing to do before we can go on is to decide that the amendment proposed by Deputy Cooper yesterday should be withdrawn, and have this taken in its stead.

I withdrew my amendment yesterday.

I submit, with all deference, that the amendment is in order up to the words "person or persons," but not beyond that.

I now move that we Report Progress so that this matter can be considered, and so that the Bill might be taken at a later stage of the proceedings to-day.

Is that Motion agreed to?

No, Sir. We submit that the amendment is in order, and we await your ruling.

The Motion before the Dáil is that we Report Progress.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

On a point of order, you have not yet ruled, Sir, on the question of whether or not this amendment is in order.

When a Motion to Report-Progress is made I have to put that Motion to the Dáil.

Question put: "That the Committee Report Progress."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 17; Níl, 42.

Tá.

  • Pádraig F. Baxter.
  • Séamus Eabhróid.
  • Tomás Mac Eoin.
  • Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
  • Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
  • Tomás de Nógla.
  • Ailfrid O Broin.
  • Tomás O Conaill.
  • Aodh O Cúlacháin.
  • Liam O Daimhín.
  • Tadhg S. O Donnabháin.
  • Mícheál O hIfearnáin.
  • Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
  • Tadhg O Murchadha.
  • Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).
  • David Hall.
  • Patrick McKenna.

Níl.

  • Richard H. Beamish.
  • Earnán de Blaghd.
  • Séamus Breathnach.
  • Séamus de Búrca.
  • John J. Cole.
  • Bryan R. Cooper.
  • Máighréad Ní Choileáin Uí Dhrisceoil.
  • Seán de Faoite.
  • Henry J. Finlay.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • John Good.
  • John Hennigan.
  • Seosamh Mac 'a Bhrighde.
  • Alasdair Mac Cába.
  • Domhnall Mac Cárthaigh.
  • Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
  • Pádraig Mac Giollagáin.
  • Seán Mac Giolla 'n Ríogh.
  • Risteárd Mac Liam.
  • Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
  • John T. Nolan.
  • Peadar O hAodha.
  • Mícheál O hAonghusa.
  • Criostóir O Broin.
  • Seán. O Bruadair.
  • Aodh O Cinnéide.
  • Peadar S. O Dubhghaill.
  • Eamon O Dúgáin. Donchadh S. O Guaire.
  • Aindriú O Láimhin.
  • Séamus O Leadáin.
  • Fionán O Loingsigh.
  • Risteárd O Maolchatha.
  • Séamus O Murchadha.
  • Seán M. O Súilleabháin.
  • Caoimhghin O hUigín.
  • Seán Príomhdhail.
  • Patrick W. Shaw.
  • Liam Thrift.
  • Séamus Mac Cosgair.
  • Martin M. Nally.
  • Pádraig O Dubhthaigh.
Motion declared lost.

I now ask you to rule whether it is in order for this amendment to be discussed at this stage, and in this place.

The ruling I have to give on this matter is that this amendment, in my opinion, does not go outside the scope of the Bill, because it only gives power to a military force that is out to arrest a wanted person on the order of an officer. If it comes the way of any member of that force, whether a private or not, to take this person into custody, this amendment would empower him to do so. Therefore it does not give, in my opinion, any additional powers to ordinary members of the military forces except when acting under the direct order of their officer. The officer is responsible for the arrest of the person. For this reason I rule that the amendment is in order.

Accepting your ruling regarding the amendment being within the scope of the Bill, I do not suggest that it is not within the scope of the Bill. The point of order is whether, having passed certain sections dealing with the powers granted to certain people, namely responsible officers, we could then on the definition clause, No. 7, purport to define responsible officers. If at that stage of the consideration of the Bill we may extend these powers to an entirely new set of persons, I ask whether it is in order at this stage to extend such powers?

May I put this point? We have already by a previous amendment to this clause extended the power given in the Bill to every member of a police force. Surely, therefore, if it were intended to extend these powers to every member of the Army, it would be within the scope of the amendment to do so. It does not give powers that are not granted elsewhere in the Bill, but merely gives powers granted in the Bill to a large number of people. The definition clause could give them to every member of the Saorstát.

It occurs to me that the conflict is between the words and the intention, and Deputy Johnson, I think, regards the words as going beyond the intention. I suggest that it be altered to read in this way:—"Detailed by the order of a person so empowered to arrest a particular person or particular persons, in which case every member of such force shall be deemed to be a responsible officer for the purposes of such arrest." That, I think, confines the intention without extending, as Deputy Johnson fears, the powers and authority of members of the force.

For my part I would be prepared to accept that alteration in the amendment.

If the Minister had agreed to Report Progress some kind of new construction might have been presented to us in writing which we might have considered, but, having declined to report progress, I do not think that there is any room now for changes in language.

I shall now put the question.

Have you ruled this matter in order?

Which is the amendment before us? Is the original one withdrawn?

Do I understand that the change suggested by the Attorney-General has been accepted?

Not at all.

The original amendment is before the Dáil, and I rule that it is in order.

Is it not to be under discussion?

You rule that it is in order to define the words "responsible officer" as meaning any group of persons or any force which has been detailed by an authorised person to arrest any other person. I ask the Dáil to consider the effect of this proposition. Section 2 says that it shall be lawful for a responsible officer to arrest and detain in custody for any period, not exceeding one week, certain persons. In its wisdom the Dáil inserted the words "responsible officers who are to be empowered to arrest and detain." Surely it had some meaning when it inserted the adjective "responsible." It did not mean to extend the power to arrest and detain to any person who could be deemed to be responsible on any particular occasion. The word "responsible" was surely put in with an object. It was intended to confine these temporary powers that were being granted in these extraordinary circumstances, to certain people who were to be responsible officers. Now we are asked to say that we did not mean responsible officers except in a few cases. Responsible officers are to be members of forces who may be privates or corporals or sergeants, or any other rank. Any person shall be deemed to be a responsible officer so long as he has an authorisation from somebody above his rank. I am afraid in that amendment people will be covered after the fact. People may arrest individuals, and if they are proceeded against for such arrests illegally they will be covered and shielded, or may be covered and shielded, by some person who is in reality a responsible officer. They would at least come within the intention of the Dáil in Section 2 by saying: "Oh, yes, these men had authority from us." There is no suggestion that the responsibility will be a written authority. That is the objection to No. 1. I ask the Dáil to read this amendment and to convince themselves that they understand what it means, if they can. The expression "responsible officer" means an officer not being below the rank of Commandant. That was the intention of the Minister for Home Affairs when he introduced the Bill, and when he got a Second Reading for it, and also when it went through Committee. But it is only on Report——

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Will the Deputy allow me to intervene to say that I made it clear in Committee that it was my conception that the responsible officer would have power in a particular set of circumstances to delegate his authority to arrest to agents or subordinates.

On Report the Minister for Defence proceeds to define the definition and to say that the responsible officer may be a person in future below the rank of Commandant "who may be specifically empowered in any particular case by the Ministry of Defence, to delegate his powers under this Act to any member of the military forces of Saorstát Eireann not below the rank of Sergeant.""Who may be specifically empowered in any particular case to delegate his powers under this Act." This does not convey the intention of the Minister for Defence when he spoke yesterday. "In any particular case" surely means in the case of any particular offender. The Minister told us that he intended "in any particular case" would be the case of any particular officer. That is not the intention, at least it is not the meaning set out here. "Who may be specifically empowered in any particular case by the Ministry of Defence to delegate his powers under this Act to any member of the military forces of Saorstát Eireann not below the rank of Sergeant, save and except in such cases (presumably those particular cases) where a military force has been detailed by the order of a person so empowered to arrest any person or persons in which case every member of such force shall be deemed to possess the powers granted by this Act." What powers? The powers of arrest? The powers of detention? The powers of remission? The powers of setting up Appeals Councils? The powers of issuing orders for release.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It is the definition of "responsible officer"—the powers of Section 2, Sub-section I.

That is what the Minister intends, no doubt.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It is clearly the meaning.

That is what we may be persuaded into thinking that the Section as amended will intend, but I am putting this to you, that as it is framed it is liable to misconstruction.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It is not.

I am putting it to the Dáil that if they read and examine it they will agree that it is liable to misconstruction, and that the powers granted by this Act may in certain circumstances be extended to every member of a force which has been detailed by a responsible officer to arrest.

We all understand, I hope, the intentions, but I have been trying to persuade the Dáil that the amendment, as framed, does not secure the intention either of the Minister for Defence or the Minister for Home Affairs, or both. I argue that all the powers, that are sought for would be secured if this amendment stopped at the words "persons." and that there would be less ambiguity. But, as you have ruled that in a definition clause it is in order to extend certain powers to new people, we have to discuss it from the standpoint of its being in order. I maintain that it is not good policy to extend powers of arrest to military forces beyond the powers they at present have under the ordinary law. A police officer could, under the ordinary law, call upon military forces to effect an arrest, and there is no necessity for any increased powers such are as outlined in this amendment. The amendment empowers military forces to do things which it is not intended should be given to them and, even though we all agree with the intention, this amendment is so framed that it is liable to misinterpretation and misconstruction, and may include the granting of much wider powers to classes of men who should not receive those powers. I therefore ask the Dáil to oppose the amendment.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 47; Níl, 16.

Tá.

  • Richard H. Beamish.
  • Earnán de Blaghd.
  • Séamus Breathnach.
  • Próinsias Bulfin.
  • Séamus de Búrca.
  • John J. Cole.
  • Bryan R. Cooper.
  • Maighréad Ní Choileáin Uí Dhrisceoil.
  • Patrick J. Egan.
  • Osmond Grattan Esmonde.
  • Seán de Faoite.
  • Henry J. Finlay.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • John Good.
  • John Hennigan.
  • William Hewat.
  • Seosamh Mac 'a Bhrighde.
  • Alasdair Mac Cába.
  • Domhnall Mac Cárthaigh.
  • Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
  • Pádraig Mac Giollagáin.
  • Seán Mac Giolla n Ríogh.
  • Risteárd Mac Liam.
  • Eoin Mac Néill.
  • Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
  • Liam Mac Sioghaird.
  • John T. Nolan.
  • Peadar O hAodha.
  • Mícheál O hAonghusa.
  • Criostóir O Broin.
  • Seán O Bruadair. Próinsias O Cathail.
  • Aodh O Cinnéide.
  • Peadar S. O Dubhghaill.
  • Eamon O Dúgáin.
  • Donchadh S. O Guaire.
  • Aindriú O Láimhin.
  • Séamus O Leadáin.
  • Fionán O Loingsigh.
  • Risteárd O Maolchatha.
  • Séamus O Murchadha.
  • Seán M. O Súilleabháin.
  • Caoimhghin O hUigín.
  • Seán Príomhdhail.
  • Patrick W. Shaw.
  • Liam Thrift.
  • Martin M. Nally.

Níl.

  • Pádraig F. Baxter.
  • Séamus Eabhróid.
  • Connor Hogan.
  • Tomás Mac Eoin.
  • Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
  • Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
  • Tomás de Nógla.
  • Ailfrid O Broin.
  • Tomás O Conaill.
  • Aodh O Cúlacháin.
  • Liam O Daimhín.
  • Tadhg S. O Donnabháin.
  • Mícheal O hIfearnáin.
  • Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
  • Tadhg O Murchadha.
  • Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).
Amendment declared carried.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I move that the Committee report progress.

Agreed.

Barr
Roinn