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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Mar 1924

Vol. 6 No. 26

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - MONEY RESOLUTION.—JURIES BILL.

I beg to move:—

Chun críche aon Achta a rithfar sa tSiosón so chun leasú do dhéanamh ar an dlí a bhaineas le coistí dháréag agus ar an méid den Acht Timpeal Toghachán, 1923, a bhaineas leis an ní sin go bhfuil sé oiriúnach a údarú:

That for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to amend the law relating to juries and in connection there with to amend the Electoral Act, 1923, it is expedient to authorise:

(1) Go n-íocfar amach as airgead a sholáthróidh an tOireachtas na cionta so a leanas de sna costaisí fé n-a raghaidh Comhairle gach Contae agus Contae-Bhuirge maidir le clárú fén Acht san:

(1) The payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of the following proportions of the expenses incurred by the Council of every County and County Borough in connection with registration under such Act:

(a) ceathrú den méid a íocfidh an Chomhairle leis an Oifigeach Clárathachta, mar gheall ar dhualgaisí a có-líonadh, i gcás Contae riaracháin, ag Rúnaí Chomhairle na Contae, no ag Cléireach Chomhairle aon Bhailecheanntair sa chontae agus i gcás Contae-Bhuirge ag Rúnaí no ag Cléireach na Contae-Bhuirge;

(a) one-fourth of the amount paid by the Council to the Registration Officer in respect of duties performed, in the case of an administrative County, by the Secretary of the Council of the County or the Clerk of the Council of any Urban District in the County, and in the case of a County Borough by the Secretary or Clerk of the County Borough;

(b) trian an méid a íocfidh an Chomhairle leis an Oifigeach Clárathachta mar gheall ar dhualgaisí a chó-líon Rát-Bhai-litheoirí;

(b) one-third of the amount paid by the Council to the Registration Officer in respect of duties performed by Rate Collectors;

(c) leath gach costais clárathachta eile a íocfidh an Chomhairle.

(c) one-half of all other registration expenses paid by the Council.

(2) Go n-íocfar amach as airgead a sholáthróidh an tOireachtas, trí sheachtú de chostas na clódóireachta a theastóidh chun crícheanna clárathachta fén Acht san.

(2) The payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of threesevenths of the cost of printing required for registration purposes under such Act.

The necessary Message prescribed by the Constitution has been received from the Governor-General.

As this is growing to be a matter of some importance, and as I have observed that in another place money resolutions are subject to limited discussions, there is one point that I would like to raise. We are now asked to vote money which is to be apportioned, in one respect, as follows: "One-third of the amount paid by the Council to the Registration Officer in respect of duties performed by rate collectors." I think it is within the knowledge of Deputies that in this matter of registration, for which we are asked to vote money, the work done by the rate collectors has been very valuable in some places, while in other places it is not done so well, and rate collectors have omitted a large number of persons who ought to be on the register. That has been my experience in my own constituency, where the register was fairly good. In other constituencies the register was not quite so good. It is a rather serious thing that we should be asked to vote money over the expenditure of which we have no control. We have no check over those collectors. The whole control is in the hands of the local Councils. However badly a rate collector may do his work he is not responsible to us, yet he is the person by whom the register is ultimately compiled, and he is the person by whom, in the long run, we are elected. I do not think that that is a satisfactory state of affairs. I shall be glad if, before we vote the money, the Minister will give us an explanation of why that situation exists, and, further, whether it is in any way within our power to amend or alter this state of affairs.

On that point I would like to raise the question as to whether this form of resolution is necessary to make legal or formal the discussion of the Bill in Committee. As has been pointed out by Deputy Cooper, if we pass this resolution it precludes us, to a considerable extent at any rate, from amending the Bill. and it certainly, if the contentions of the Ministry over another Bill in the Seanad is maintained, precludes the Seanad from amending the Bill. I suggest to the Minister that until that matter has been clearly threshed out and a proper understanding has been come to, the resolution we are asked to pass ought to be a formal one and not binding in such a way as to limit the Legislature in its consideration of a Bill of this kind. Otherwise the effect of this form of resolution will mean that the whole Committee Stage will have to take place on the resolution. I do not think it is necessary I do not think it was the practice in the early stages of our proceedings and I think this innovation is not yet justified.

Before the Minister replies, I would like him to find out for me where these proportional parts of the vote are derived from. Can he tell us, for example, why one-fourth is to be paid one place, one-third to another place, and one-half to another. Are those apportionments made by ancient law or by the Ministerial Department itself?

In reference to the matter raised by Deputy Cooper, I would like to look into it a little further before giving a reply that I would stand over; but I think in this matter, as in connection with the compilation of registers, the central authority has power, where it is satisfied there has been definite default on the part of the rate collector, to withhold the payment that would go to any particular rate collector. I believe that in cases that came to my notice in connection with the last register, action was taken to prevent any payment being given to rate collectors who did not perform their work properly. It is a matter I would require to look into a little further, but I think we can at least have this control over the expenditure of the money, that where there is sufficient ground for it, there can be instructions sent to a Council, and the amount can be withheld in the case of any collector who has not done his work.

In regard to the question of the form of the resolution, that is a matter which I understand in another place is not subject to a fixed practice. Sometimes resolutions are in general terms; sometimes they are much more particularised. I do not know whether we ought not to consider the matter carefully here in the Dáil in some general way as to the form that money resolutions ought to take. There is certainly a great deal to be said in favour of particularising them where it can be done. The idea of a money resolution is simply to preserve the responsibility of the Executive in the matter of recommending expenditure. If resolutions are unnecessarily general, it has the same effect, for all practical purposes, as if there were to be no resolution at all.

I do not feel in this case that it is a matter of consequence as to the form of the resolution. The amounts of money involved are not very serious. I would not say that this is a case in which there ought to be a particularised resolution. However, the form of the resolution is down, and the Message which has come from the Governor-General has been in the terms which appear in the resolution. It would not be possible, I think, simply to put forward a resolution in general terms without having a fresh Message sent, on which a new resolution might be founded.

I would ask the Minister to see that when he is apportioning these fees there is a fair allocation amongst officials who have small salaries, and that all the fees should not go to secretaries who have already £1,000 and over. That is not fair.

The Minister has not answered the question that I asked him. Who makes the apportionment of the money which is set out here? Where do we get it? Is it old legislation or is it an apportionment made by the present Government?

I think I will ask the Dáil to postpone the consideration of this matter, because I have not the details as to how these particular amounts were arrived at. They are apportionments that were fixed in view of the changed circumstances that will be brought about by this Act. I have not at hand any details of how they were actually arrived at. I think the Dáil would be entitled to have that information.

Agreed to report progress.

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