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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Mar 1924

Vol. 6 No. 28

JURIES (AMENDMENT) BILL, 1924—REPORT STAGE.

I beg to move as an amendment to delete Section 4. The Section reads:—

"In addition to the persons now disqualified for serving on juries, any person who is not registered as a Dáil or Local Government elector shall be absolutely disqualified from serving on any jury, inquest, or inquiry whatsoever, and the names of such persons shall not be inserted in any jurors books or jurors lists."

Apart from the very sweeping character of this Section which, by the way, shows that any person who is not registered as an elector shall be absolutely disqualified from serving on any jury, inquest, or inquiry whatsoever, I think the words of the Section hardly convey what the Minister meant or what he says it meant. But apart from that I submit it is very unwise to put this temptation in the way of citizens to get themselves written off the electors' list and thereby to get themselves written off the jurors' list. The Minister himself has said certain things appropriate to the situation when he referred to the unwillingness of electors to cast their votes. Fifty per cent. or more of the electors in one constituency quite recently thought so little of their votes that they refused to record them. Probably the same experience will be repeated to-day. Now if fifty per cent. of the electors are so careless about the rights of the franchise it is quite arguable that a very large proportion of these careless electors are also liable to jury service and if they can, by getting their names off the register of electors, also get their names off the jurors' list, as I said at an earlier stage, it is a very good bargain. Many people care nothing about the right to vote. They might fight for the right to vote but when they get it they do not care whether they are on the list, or not, and if they are on the list, they do not exercise their right to vote. Now we are asked to say that if a careless person disregards his right to vote and can find a way of getting his name struck off the electors' list he will, by that fact also, be cut off the jurors' list. I am surprised that the Minister should bring forward such a proposition. I would rather think the view of the Minister would be that if a person is not careful enough, or at least is not filled with sufficient sense of civic duty to exercise the vote, and to look after the securing of his vote, he would be punished by being compelled to serve on juries; but we are about here rewarding a man by eliminating him from the responsibility of serving on a jury if he also can find a way of getting his name off the electors' list. If this Section is allowed to remain it seems to me that the necessary corollary should be that there should be a penalty imposed upon the officials responsible for putting names upon the register of qualified persons. We have not imposed such a penalty. I think that Deputy McCarthy would be able to inform the Minister responsible that it is quite an easy thing to get one's name struck off the register and I am not prepared to agree that the mere failure to find the place upon the electors' register should not merely disqualify—because that is hardly the word to use in the circumstances—but excuse a person from serving as a juror. One is amused to read this word "disqualification" as though it were an honour to be sought, Perhaps it ought to be, but in fact it is not. People do not fall out with each other in order to be allowed to be put upon a jury. But we tell the country that it is a disqualification that we impose on them unless they get their names put upon the register. It is rather topsy-turvey, and I submit it ought not to be here in this Bill, and therefore I move the deletion of this Section.

I have pleasure in seconding that amendment. I agree with Deputy Johnson that one of the duties the Dáil should urge upon citizens to discharge is that of serving on juries, and that it ought to make difficult the task of those who would like to get rid of that duty. This Section also, in my opinion, creates a state of affairs, in connection with the list of voters or of persons who should be on the register, that is not very desirable. As Deputies are aware at the moment that duty is very largely cast on the rate-collector to the local authority. The rate-collector, in discharge of that duty, applies to the householder or his representative for the names of the persons in the house who are entitled to be on the register. We can all imagine that if the absence of names from the register releases people from the duty of attending as jurors, the register in future will be of a very limited and very unsatisfactory character. That, to my mind, would be a very undesirable state of affairs, to say nothing at all of the condition that might be brought about by the efforts of some to get off that list who should be on it; so that, looking at the matter from all points of view, it should be the object of the House to delete such a clause as this, and on the other hand, to encourage all persons who should be on the jurors' list, and should serve as jurors, to discharge the duty attaching to citizenship.

I do not quite follow Deputy Good in his objection. So far as I can see, the proposal in the Bill insists that jurors shall only consist of those who have sufficient public spirit to wish to exercise the franchise. The Deputy says that it is a very undesirable state of affairs, but I cannot see that that is the case. I am not wholly convinced by Deputy Johnson's argument. On a previous occasion in connection with the Punishment of Offences Bill, Deputy Johnson was somewhat sarcastic in connection with a speech made by Deputy Wolfe, because he said that the clause the Deputy was supporting was not supported by the argument he brought forward to support it. I venture to think that Deputy Johnson is hoist to-day on his own petard. His argument is a differentiation between those who are on the register and those who do not exercise the vote. There I am not in agreement with him, but this is not the proposal before us. If the Deputy said that everybody who is on the register and who does not vote should be liable to serve as a juror, and that such people should be the only people liable to juror's service, and that those who did not record their votes should be compelled to come into Court and discharge their duties as jurors, that I say would be a very desirable proposal, but it is not the proposal before us, which is a proposal to extend the disqualification from serving on juries to people who are disqualified by not being registered as a Dáil or Local Government elector. They are not a large number.

They will be.

If the Revising Barrister has a certain discretion and it is known that there is a widespread endeavour to avoid jury service, the Revising Barrister has a perfect right to dispose of them and say that they must be put on the list. It is like the constitutional obligation that existed long ago in England on the part of the constituencies to their representatives. There was a constitutional obligation on the constituencies to support their representatives, but it was found that they could not be enforced because there were always people ambitious to sit in Parliament, and they said: "If you return us we will not make you pay." There is always a way out, and if it is once found that the jury is shrinking the Revising Barrister will naturally consider objections more carefully, and he will insist in compelling people to have the franchise, whether they want it or whether they do not. I think the point is a minor point.

I think it is a major point.

It is a point of principle, and if it is a point of principle you ought to take it much further, and the Deputy ought to have made his amendment one that might punish everybody who did not exercise the franchise. That is my view. As a point of principle and as a corollary to that principle he might have brought in that amendment.

What about the title of the Bill?

The Deputy could have put down an amendment to the title. You can always amend a title. Having regard to the fact that he brought in a far-reaching measure dealing with railways, I do not see why he could not bring in a great Franchise Bill dealing with this matter. If he will give me that undertaking I will support him.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

When three such wise men as Deputy Johnson, Deputy Good and Deputy Cooper find themselves at variance on a question, it is clear that there is much to be said on both sides. I have been listening to the discussion. I confess that I cannot see or quite grasp the point raised by Deputy Johnson that it is really possible for an individual who is properly qualified to escape jury service. If the Deputy will follow me to the extent of reading Section 1, Sub-section 2, he will see—

"It shall be the duty of the registration officer to include and identify in the prescribed manner in the electors lists to be prepared by him pursuant to the Electoral Act, 1923, the names of all persons in each registration unit in his registration area appearing to be qualified and liable to serve as special jurors or general jurors or to be disqualified or exempted from so serving."

A juror at present must be a rated occupier of premises of a certain valuation. The Deputy will agree that that is a fair description of the present qualification for jury service. Rated occupiers of premises can scarcely escape getting their names on the register. It will be the duty of the registration officer to mark those liable for jury service. He will work from the valuation list, and he will mark rated occupiers as qualified to vote and liable to jury service. That sums up the situation, as we see it departmentally, and we are not satisfied that it will be possible for any individual qualified for jury service to escape the duty of jury service. I explained, speaking at an earlier stage of the Bill, that this Section is inserted as a precaution to cover a type of case which is not known to us to exist, namely, the case of a person who is qualified to to be a juror but is not qualified to be either a Dáil voter, a Seanad voter, or a Local Government voter. If Deputy Johnson or any other Deputy knows of any such type of case, I shall be glad to hear it. The fact is that unless there were a list of 100 or so cases in each county they would not be worth the trouble of making special provision for. The scheme set out in the Bill is that the jurors list is made out from the electoral list, which should contain, and does contain, so far as we know, the name of every potential juror.

You mean "ought to."

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Ought to.

But does not.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I think between the Parliamentary Register and the Local Government Register it will be found that on one or other of these lists there is the name of every potential juror. The only effect of this Section is to make it quite clear to the Registration Officer that he is under no obligation to embark on a roving inquiry outside the electoral list in search of any case which may possibly exist but which if found to exist would not repay the trouble of the search.

Would the Minister divert his remarks to any jury, inquest or inquiry whatsoever? A property qualification does not apply to jurors on inquests.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I think if the Attorney-General was here he would probably explain that the words following on jury must be interpreted as ejusdem generis and therefore containing the same qualifications and disqualifications. An inquest there does not mean necessarily and does not mean in fact the ordinary Coroner's inquest, but there are such inquiries as sheriff's inquiries and so on which people with the jury qualification are called upon to act assessing damages and performing functions of that kind.

The weight of the argument seems to be with the electoral lists, that neither the Parliamentary list nor the Local Government list is cast iron and that therefore it is not proper to take the jury list from one or other or both of these electoral lists. There have been criticisms of the register, but in administration you must follow the maxim of taking that thing to be done which ought to be done. You cannot legislate on the basis that in fact certain things which ought to be done properly ought to be done fully and so on are not being carried out in that way. Theoretically the list of Parliamentary electors and the list of Local Government electors should exhaust the possibilities of persons liable for service on juries. The Deputies, even those whose arguments tend the other way, will agree with me that in the abstract and theoretically the name of every person liable to serve on a jury should appear on one or other or both of these lists as a Dail voter, a Seanad voter or Local Government voter. If that is granted then the case for the Bill, and in particular the case for this particular Section, is established.

I do not quite follow what the object of this clause is.

The Deputy can only make one speech. He can ask the Minister a question.

I would like to know what the object is of introducing a clause of this character which gives additional opportunities to those who are anxious to evade service. It is well known among rated occupiers that in order to evade jury service property is rated in many cases in the names of wives. Under this Bill, he will answer me that wives are liable to serve, but wives can get off service on juries much more easily than the persons who ought to be the rated occupiers. If there was a desire in a great many cases to avoid service why should the Government come in and assist these people by giving them an opportunity for further disqualification?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

We do not regard the Section as assisting anyone to escape jury service. The object of the Section, as I have explained, is to cover a particular type of case, which is not known to us to exist in fact. We have not heard of any such case. That is the case of a person qualified to be a juror but not qualified to be either a Dáil elector, a Seanad elector or a Local Government elector.

Are you arguing for deletion?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

No.

Amendment put and declared lost.
Motion made—"That the Bill be received for final consideration."

May I call your attention, A Chinn Chomhairle, to the fact that you have not a House.

The Deputies present have been counted and there is a House.

Trinity College saved the situation.

On the motion that the Bill be received for final consideration, I just want to say that I am afraid the mixing up of these two lists, while it may be convenient and may be economical, is bringing into relationship two entirely different functions, which I think ought to be kept apart. I leave to a later stage, perhaps, an enlargement of that point.

Question put and agreed to.
Fifth Stage ordered for Tuesday, 25th March.
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