Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 27 Mar 1924

Vol. 6 No. 32

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION.

I move:—

"That a sum not exceeding £1,650 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st March, 1924, to pay the salaries and expenses of the Civil Service Commission."

This is a new service. The Commission was set up under the Civil Service Regulation Act of 1923, which expired on the 8th February. A new Act has since come into operation, and the officers of the Civil Service Commission, now that permanent legislation has been secured, will be appointed definitely to their position. For instance, the salary of the Secretary at present is paid from the vote of the Supreme Court of Judicature, and he is paid an allowance from this vote. But now, from the 1st April, he will be paid entirely from the Civil Service Commission Vote. The same applies to the next officer. The Commission so far has held, I think, 16 examinations of one sort and another, for Customs and Excise, County Surveyors, two examinations for writing assistants, temporary typists, examination of D.M.P. for promotion, an examination for Marine posts in connection with the transport section of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, inspectors of weights and measures in the Gárda Síochána, boy messengers in the Post Office in Dublin, and through the provinces, and other examinations of that sort. The number of candidates that have so far sat in examinations held by the Commission, is 1,608. The examinations have been held in Dublin, Cork, Galway, Letterkenny, Sligo, Athlone, Limerick, Tralee, Waterford and Dundalk. There has been a great variety of standard.

This Estimate was prepared two or three weeks ago, and I think the amount is a little more than will be required, but I could not give the exact figure at the moment. The examiners are drawn from the Universities, and the Secondary Schools and the superintendents of the examinations are generally secondary teachers. The only figure that I see which would strike one as a bit high is the amount for subsitence allowances and for travelling expenses. I believe that amount will not be required. That is an excessive item in the Estimate. All the other items, I think, are low. The hiring of examination rooms and so forth does not amount to much.

Is it intended to make this service a profitable one? There is, I understand, a considerable charge made to at least some of the applicants before they are allowed to sit for examination. If it is only £1, I can imagine that if 1,608 persons have already been examined, and if each paid £1, that might have covered very nearly all the expenses. Some, I know, have paid much more. I do not know what the custom is in regard to the matter, or whether all or only a few pay a fee for sitting for examination. The Minister has read out a number of classes which have gone through examination. I was curious to know whether there had been any examination to qualify for Commissioners to act for Local Government bodies. Perhaps the Minister will tell us whether there has been any examination for that section of public service?

Not yet. I think the amount that has been received in fees was something like £400. I had the figure, but I have mislaid the paper on which it was.

I suppose when the examination adumbrated by Deputy Johnson, which, as the Minister suggests, is in the womb of the future, comes into being, there will be a special examination in surcharging. The Minister rather disarmed me in advance by admitting that the £400 is excessive for subsistence allowances and travelling expenses. I cannot see why there should be any vote for subsistence allowance and travelling expenses for examiners and superintendents. At all the places the Minister has named, where examinations were held, I think it is possible to find suitable superintendents. It is certainly possible in Sligo. I am sure the Minister for Fisheries could find them in Tralee, and in Letterkenny, I am told by Deputies suitable superintendents could be found. It is only a question of looking out to find people on the spot who, for the fee paid, will exercise supervision at the examinations. It is not an onerous task. It requires integrity and intelligence, but, nevertheless, it is not a very difficult duty to perform.

As far as the examiners are concerned, I cannot speak with the authority of Deputies on my right, who spend their whole days examining and come back and boast of the number in the bag as if they were out fishing. I cannot see why subsistence allowances and travelling expenses should become necessary in the case of the examiner, who sets the paper and then it is sent down to the place where the examination is held. I cannot see the necessity for those expenses in the case of the examiner. The examiner lives probably somewhere in my constituency, and he goes down to the University, whichever it may be, and in his office he sets the examination paper. The Minister then sends it down to the place of examination.

I do not know if he trusts it to the post, or if, as is the case in Italy, all examination papers and answers are conveyed by Civil Servants of a minor type. I travelled with some of them, and I must say they are men of an unpleasant type, who spat on the floor all the time. The post is not trusted there. In this country I think the post might be. I do not see any necessity, not merely for an excessive Vote, but for any Vote at all, for these subsistence allowances and travelling expenses.

I think it is generally regarded as undesirable to have local superintendents, and one has only to think over the matter a little to realise that there would at least be grave charges made, even if there was no foundation for them, and that there would not be any confidence if we had local superintendents.

The Minister has really taken my question out of my mouth. There is the classical case of a local superintendent who was retained twelve months in advance. I think it is really impossible to have local superintendents. Would I be in order in asking when there will be a formal syllabus published, that will be accessible to candidates and their instructors? Perhaps I might incidentally be permitted to congratulate the Minister on the scheme of examination held up to date. I think it is desirable that details and the courses or the curricula of our first and second class Civil Service examinations should be known as soon as possible, and as widely as possible, in the form of a syllabus.

I wish again to direct attention to the financial aspect of this Vote. We have £1,650 plus £400, that is £2,050. Sixteen examinations were held, that is, it cost £125 for each examination. While I consider that a reasonable amount ought to be paid in this case, I think the aspect of the case is such that it shows there is some extravagance in the administration of this particular service.

Mr. O'CONNELL

I am afraid Deputy Wilson would not succeed at any of these examinations, or in one particular branch, at any rate.

I think it is only fair to point out to Deputy Wilson that this £1,600 provides for a good deal more than conducting examinations. The work of the Civil Service Commission is much wider than that. Deputy Cooper was trying to draw those who, like myself, have the misfortune to indulge in that peculiar form of torture called conducting examinations, but he will not draw me on this occasion more than to draw attention to one word. I think those who are exposed to such obloquy should have the same title throughout the Paper and not be called Examiners in one place and Assistant Examiners in another. One line in the Paper sets out the cost of Examiners and Superintendents, but the total is made out a little lower down.

There is an excellent explanation for that which I might be allowed to give. Senior Inspectors of the Intermediate Education Board set a good many of the examination papers as part of their ordinary work. Hence a good deal of the fees are fees to Assistant Examiners who examine the papers when there are a big number of candidates. Usually in cases where there is a University standard, the Examiners are University Professors, and they could, of course, in no circumstances be called Assistant Examiners. On the point Deputy Alton raised, I do not follow as to what exactly he meant.

I mean that we should have a more or less standard syllabus that would hold for year to year so that it might be known what course or standard you would expect from first class Civil Service Candidates and what from second class; that is to enable us to know approximately.

The Civil Service Commissioners can only hold an examination when requested to do so, and have not yet held a First Division Examination, but one is announced for the end of the year. The standard has been announced as an Honours Degree Standard. A detailed syllabus is in course of preparation, and will be published, but the difficulty is to arrange for a course that will give fair play to candidates from the two Universities, and not only from the two Universities, but really from the four institutions, namely, the three University Colleges of the National University and Trinity College. The intention of the Civil Service Commission has been that examinations conducted by the Commission would never cut across the ordinary educational policy of the country, but would be the same as the examinations held by the Ministry of Education, and the Universities. There have been special reasons urged by the departments concerned for certain examinations, and owing to the transition period, I think one departure was made in which an examination was fixed with an age limit beginning at 19, which was very undesirable, but was done for special reasons.

Might I suggest that there might be some laxity for certain appointments, appointments for special departments where you require rather specialists than the average type of students, as, for example, for such Government appointments as a Museum appointment. I would leave that to the discretion of the Director or Governor, or the gentlemen who look after these places. I just thought I would simply emphasise this particular aspect of the Civil Service for the moment.

The Civil Service Commission, besides conducting examinations, also nominates and approves of Selection Boards for certain appointments. Deputy Alton's point is that there should be certain Selection Boards for certain posts. That is actually the case at present.

Question put and agreed to.
Barr
Roinn