When will the next stage be taken?
DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - THE DÁIL RESUMES.
Bill reported without amendment.
Before passing, I would like to ask the Minister to consider the position of the soldiers under this Bill for the period preparatory to the bringing forward of a new permanent measure. The Minister has said that these amendments have been found necessary in consequence of the experience of the last twelve months. Now, inasmuch as the law relating to the Defence Forces is the law relating to soldiers in the Army, one would naturally expect that the experiences those soldiers themselves gained should have something to say to the permanent measure which will govern the conduct of the Army. The experiences of the Headquarters Staff may be one thing, the experiences of the soldiers themselves will be quite another, and it seems to me that the interim between now and the permanent measure should be availed of to enable the soldiers themselves to give expression in some way to what they consider unjust or unfair or impracticable in the conduct of the service so far as they are concerned, and more particularly when it comes to the question of discipline and disciplinary measures, punishments and the like. Soldiers are precluded under the terms of their declaration, or oath, from subscribing to or becoming members of any political society or organisation whatsoever, and I want it to be made clear by the Minister himself that that does not preclude soldiers from expressing their views upon what is requisite to the proper conduct of the Military Forces, in so far as the law affecting soldiers is concerned. If we are to understand how a measure of this kind affects a soldier, then that soldier must be free to express his dissatisfaction, or his sense of injustice, or to make suggestions as to alterations of the law, which, in fact, is a political effort.
I invite the Minister to make distinct here that when we say a soldier is not to be a member of or to subscribe to any political society or organisation whatsoever, that that does not preclude him, or any number of soldiers, from making representations in regard to a political measure, such as the Defence Forces Bill, and that it will not be deemed to be insubordination for soldiers to make representation regarding the terms of the Act under which they are working and living. There must be, I think, and there ought to be, some means whereby the legislature should be made aware of the soldiers' grievances, and if they are precluded by virtue of any oath or regulation from making representations in regard to the incidence of Acts of Parliament, then they are practically helpless things in a machine. I suggest to the Minister that he should make it clear to the Army, to those at least who are likely to continue to serve, who are not likely to be demobilised in the next month or two, that their experiences of the disciplinary terms and conditions under which they are working should be given expression to if they desire, so that when we come to deal with a permanent measure we shall have not only the views of the Headquarters Staff and the Ministry itself, but also the people who are obliged to obey the rules laid down and the conditions prescribed by the law. I think that it must be understood that this measure, as the last measure, the Principal Act, as it is called, is temporary, and that the permanent Act will have to receive very much more careful consideration from the Oireachtas. In giving it that consideration we ought to have knowledge of the experience, not only of the Headquarters, but of the rank and file of the Army.
Will not this question arise rather on the next Stage of the Bill than now? We have finished one Stage, and the question is when are we going to take the next. On the next Stage the general question of the Bill, it would arise.
I want to ask a question.
The Deputy has had forty-three opportunities of doing so.
I thought at the end of the Bill was the proper place to ask a question.
I will allow the Deputy to ask the question.
On Friday last the President made a promise that he would circulate a White Paper in connection with the Army reorganisation scheme, and I want to know when that paper will be circulated, so that we will have an opportunity of discussing it.
I understood I gave an undertaking that when the Army Estimate would come up it could be raised, and it was on that occasion I intended to afford the opportunity.
The answer to the question did not state so.
That was the impression I intended to convey.
Can the President be sure that the Army Estimates will not come on to-day? They are on the Order Paper. Will he give an undertaking that they will not be taken, and that they will not be discussed until we get this White Paper?
I think I will be safe in giving an undertaking that the Army Estimates will not come on to-day.
Will the President give an undertaking that the scheme will not be brought into operation until we have an opportunity of discussing the matter?
I am afraid I could not give that undertaking.
Has the scheme not already been put into operation?
I am afraid we are getting into a new matter now. The question is the fixing of the Report Stage.
Report Stage ordered for Tuesday, 2nd July.