DÁIL IN COMMITTEE. - LOCAL GOVERNMENT (RATES ON AGRICULTURAL LAND) BILL, 1924.—THIRD STAGE.
In this Act—
the expression "the Minister" means the Minister for Local Government,
the expression "county council" does not include the council of a county borough.
I beg to move Amendment 1:—
After the words "county borough" to add the words "but does include Commissioners acting on behalf of a county council which has been dissolved."
This is merely a small provision to remedy what, I think, is an oversight in the Bill—that no provision has been made for the Counties of Leitrim and Kerry, where there are now no county councils. I want to secure that the ratepayers in those counties shall have the same benefits, such as they are, given by this Bill, as the ratepayers in other counties. I might follow the example of the Minister for Industry and Commerce in the Trade Loans Bill, and give a much more subtle description of a county council, but I think this, which is a plain, simple, but, possibly, not legal definition, conveys the meaning sufficiently.
The definition of "County Council," which is set out in the Bill, is a definition by exclusion. The county council is every council, except the council of a county borough, and it is not quite clear whether that does not include Commissioners. In any case, there is no reason why there should be any doubt about the point, and, for that reason, I am accepting the amendment.
Amendment put, and agreed to.
Question proposed: "That Section 1, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
I should just like to ask the reason for leaving out the county boroughs, because, in some cases, the county boroughs contain a great deal of agricultural land within their limits. I quite agree that it would be most unreasonable if the county borough council in Dublin, or the Commissioners acting for it, were to demand a loan under the provisions of this Act. But, I believe, in Cork—I speak subject to correction by those who know the place better—there is a very considerable amount of agricultural land included within the borough limits. That was shown by the fact that the Farmers' Party thought it worth while to put up a candidate in Cork at the last election, and I believe he polled a considerable number of votes and was not obliged to forfeit his deposit. The provision may press hard on bona fide agriculturists living within borough limits and paying heavy rates. Borough rates are invariably higher than the rates on the county-at-large. This may press hard on men like these, and I should like an explanation as to why this course is being adopted.
Mr. HOGAN
The amount of agricultural land included in the county boroughs is extremely small. The valuation would be no more than £10,000 or £15,000, and the rates would be no more than £1,000 or £2,000. That is the first reason for excluding county boroughs. Secondly, the problems of agriculturists—if you like to use that term—in the county boroughs, are quite different. The agriculturist in the county borough is in a different position from the farmer who is living outside the county borough, and whose markets are far away. The man within the county borough is doing market gardening. He has to pay higher rates, but if he has he gets the benefit of water, heating, lighting and other things. He is, therefore, in a different position. In addition, he gets better prices, as he goes in for market gardening. The problem the ordinary market gardener constitutes is a wholly different problem from the problem which any ordinary farmer in any county constitutes. I agree he has his grievances also. They are very serious, but they are not grievances of the same kind as those of the farmer outside, and this Bill is intended to deal with the man who is making his living in the ordinary way out of agricultural land.
AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE took the Chair.
Mr. HOGAN
There is the other point that there are, I think, only four county boroughs in the Saorstát, leaving out Cork and Dublin. The valuation of the land is very small, the amount of land is extremely small, and it would require exceptionally complicated and intricate arrangements to make the necessary adjustments. It is a question really of expediency more than anything else, and the amount of land involved would hardly justify the trouble. I just learn now that agricultural land in a county borough does not pay more than one-fourth of the rate per £ of the rates payable in the particular county borough.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 2 and 3 put and agreed to.
SECTION 4.
(1) A county council shall be authorised to borrow for the purposes of this Act.
(2) Money borrowed for the purposes of this Act shall not be reckoned as part of the total debt of a county council for the purpose of any enactment limiting their powers of borrowing.
(3) A loan borrowed under this section shall be repaid within such period not exceeding seven years as the county council may, with the consent of the Minister, determine.
(4) The sums required to repay the amount of the loan borrowed under this section shall be raised and levied by means of the poor rate off the agricultural land in the county.
(5) Where a county council makes default in the payment of any sum payable in respect of a loan borrowed under this section, the Minister may, on complaint being made to him by the person to whom such sum is payable and after notification to the county council concerned, direct that the amount of such sum shall be deducted from the amount payable to the county council out of the agricultural grant, and the sum so deducted shall be paid to such person in discharge of such sum; provided that this enactment shall be without prejudice to the guarantee fund under the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1891.
I move amendment 2—to delete sub-section (2). I do so because I think it is very undesirable to encourage the growth of a municipal debt in this country. At present we are fairly free from it. We may have large schemes in the future that will need development by borrowing, and it would be well to keep our hands as free as possible. If you say to a county council, or a body of that kind, that it can borrow under this Act, and that the amount it shall borrow shall not count as part of its total debt, you are to that extent giving veiled encouragement to borrowing. You are giving the idea that if any such need occurs in the future, a similar stipulation may be put into a Bill, so that they can continue to borrow. The Minister may say that the statutory powers of borrowing which these bodies enjoy are very small and very limited. That is so. They are extremely limited, but I think that should be dealt with as a question by itself in a Local Government Bill, and that we should not continually have these saving clauses put into Bills dealing with other matters, and saying that the loans shall not be reckoned as part of the total debt of a county council. The general policy of the Government with regard to debt has been to avoid creating debt wherever possible. The Minister for Finance has not borrowed to anything like the extent he should. I think it is rather a pity in a matter of this kind to reverse that policy and to put in a provision which will inevitably be in the nature of a veiled encouragement to county councils to increase their debt.
I am afraid I do not agree with Deputy Cooper in this amendment. I think it is very important that the powers of the county councils to borrow should be retained. As the Deputy has pointed out, the borrowing powers of these councils is not very great, and I think, in an important Bill of this kind, which deals to a certain extent with questions outside the scope of the county councils, that nothing should be done to interfere with the powers they at present possess. Therefore, I hope this amendment will not be accepted.
I do not think the amendment would be a good amendment to insert in the Bill. There may be some county councils who for various reasons have had to borrow considerable sums of money, and if they want to give relief under this Bill they may be unable to do it without further borrowing. I think it would be most undesirable that the amendment should be inserted. On the other hand, there are other county councils which have very little debt, and it would not affect them to any great extent. There are some county councils in the Saorstát which had to borrow in recent years, and if this amendment were accepted it would handicap them and perhaps nullify the effect of this Bill.
I think, before one could consider this amendment one would have to be informed regarding the use of borrowing powers by the county councils. If, as I think, some of the county councils have very nearly exhausted their borrowing powers, of course this Act will be of no use to those councils. To the extent that the councils have used up their borrowing powers, acceptance of the amendment would mean that the Act is not going to be of any use to these councils. I would ask Deputy Bryan Cooper, when continuing this discussion, if he will tell us, or if he can tell us, how it will affect the county councils, assuming that the county councils still desire to use this Bill for the purpose of borrowing money.
In view of Deputy Hughes' statement that this amendment would impose hardships on certain county councils who have borrowed up to their limit, I shall withdraw it, although I cannot help thinking it might be a good thing for them to be taught a lesson. I do not want the farmers of these counties to be excluded from any of the benefits, or alleged benefits, of this Bill. I know Deputy Hughes has a larger experience of local administration than I have and I take his word that the amendment would impose hardships on these counties. I withdraw it therefore.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I move amendment 3. In sub-section (3) to delete the word "seven," line 7, and to substitute therefor the word "ten."
This amendment means that loans borrowed under this section shall be repaid in 10 years instead of 7 years. I put it down because, after the Minister's speech on the Second Reading, I find no reason to hope that the agricultural depression will have passed in 7 years, or that the county councils will be in a much better position to repay than they are now. Agricultural depression usually moves in cycles, and those who observe those cycles know that a cycle lasts usually 12 or 14 years. The present agricultural depression may be said to have begun about 4 years ago, possibly five years. The Minister's proposal would, therefore, bring it within the minimum limit of the cycle, while my amendment would extend it to the maximum. While I do not want to upset any arrangements made with the Bank—and, of course, it will be optional to the Bank or anybody making the loan to stipulate 7 years, which is only a statutory limitation—I think a little more latitude would be wise and would work better in administration. I beg, therefore, to move the amendment.
I would press this amendment on the Minister for very much the same reason as I objected to the last amendment. There are many councils, both urban and county councils, who have borrowed money for different stated periods. Owing to the difficult circumstances in which these councils have been placed they have not been able to meet their instalments, and I think the principle that this amendment involves is a very good one. I might not agree with Deputy Cooper as to the period of ten years, but I certainly approve of the period being extended. I have certain strong ideas in regard to this matter.
Mr. HOGAN
Deputies will note that the next amendment, Amendment No. 4, deals with this matter. The amendment which will be moved by Deputy Duggan proposes in sub-section (3), line 7, after the word "years," to insert the words "on the 31st day of March, 1925." If that amendment is accepted, the sub-section will read: "A loan borrowed under this section shall be repaid within such period not exceeding seven years from the 31st March, 1925, as the county council may with the consent of the Minister determine." That is giving little less than 8 years from now so that there is not much between myself and Deputy Cooper. I previously pointed out that besides the rate-payers and the county councils there are other parties interested in this scheme and they are the banks. The banks have met us fairly in this matter. This is not, strictly speaking, a banking proposition. This is not normal banking, but they have met us very fairly, and the Standing Committee have agreed to leave this loan 7 years from the 31st March, 1925, and to have it repaid by annuity. That is a big concession. This is not ordinary banking business, and as they are parties without whom this section cannot work I certainly did not feel inclined to press them any further than that. I would like myself if we could get 10 or 12 years but we must recognise the banking difficulties, in these matters, and the difficulties are that in ordinary circumstances they would not allow money to be outstanding for such a long period. In view of that fact and of the fact that without the banks we cannot do business under this Bill, I would ask the Deputy to withdraw the amendment.
I do not agree with the Minister that there is very little difference between 9 months and 36 months. I hope he is going to go on the principle that there is very little difference between 9 and 36 when he starts grading the eggs.
Mr. HOGAN
I cannot follow that. I would require to know more about the valuation. In view of the fact that arrangements have been made with the banks and that to break them would be to destroy the Bill, I do not want to upset them, although I have no exaggerated idea of the benefits to be brought about by them. I will withdraw the amendment, with the leave of the Dáil.
The Minister speaks of an arrangement with the banks. I think it would be interesting and valuable to know what that exactly means. Does it mean that the Minister has consulted the banks en bloc or separately, arriving at a similar agreement? Does it mean that there is an association of bankers which decides these questions; in fact that there is a banking trust. I know there is an association, but I thought it purported to deal with internal arrangements between the banks. Now it seems—unless the Minister can correct it—there is an association of bankers who will make terms with the Government and I presume that if one bank desires to go better than another that a stop is put to that bank, that its little game is checked and that, as a matter of practice, the banks are able to control the Government, and through the Government, to control the country. I would like to know definitely from the Minister what exactly he means by saying that he has made an arrangement with the banks and that they have agreed to this. Is it an arrangement with each bank separately and independently or is it an arrangement with the banks taken altogether? If so, is that the common process of making engagements between the Government and Finance Institutions?
Mr. HOGAN
This is a red herring. The fact is this Bill really gives power to a county council to exercise an option. It may or may not exercise that option. I thought it good business myself—on behalf of the county councils, if you like—to find out whether the banks would, in the event of a county council approaching its particular treasurer, facilitate us in this matter. I took the trouble of writing to the Secretary of the Standing Committee of the banks and asking when their next meeting would be, and whether they could not arrange an interview with me after a meeting of the Standing Committee of the banks. The Standing Committee of the banks is a committee which includes representatives from all the banks. They would be all in Dublin on the same occasion, and I found it a convenient time to see them. I dare say I could have been them one by one, and as a matter of arrangement I could have seen the representatives of the banks when they would be in Dublin at a meeting of the Standing Committee once a fortnight or once a week. But, as a matter of expediency, I thought it is advisable to see all the representatives of all the banks, and I asked them if a county council came to any of them and sought the facilities which they are entitled to ask for under the Bill would they give the county councils those facilities. They said they would. I asked what period for repayment of the loan would suit, and I suggested the number of years set out here, and that was agreed to.
That is all that is in it. There is nothing to hide and there is nothing to keep back. We need not have done that at all. We might have allowed each county council to go to its treasurer. One bank might say that they would give five or six years; another might arrange eight or nine years; and still another would mention ten years. It was much more convenient for the county councils to see the banks beforehand and to ask them to make a uniform arrangement. That was done. It is not that the banks limit the number of years; probably the banks will give a greater number of years for the repayment by the county councils than if they had not been approached.
The Dáil will have noted with interest Deputy Johnson's disapproval of combination for the purpose of bargaining, and will await his resignation from his trades union in order to prove his consistency. I beg to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move: "In sub-section 3, line 7, after the word ‘years' to insert ‘from the 31st day of March, 1925.'"
Amendment agreed to.
Question: "That Section 4, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 5.
(1) This Act may be cited as the Local Government (Rates on Agricultural Land) Act, 1924, and shall be read and construed as one with the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898 to 1919.
(2) The Local Government (Ireland) Acts, 1898 to 1919, and this Act may be cited together as the Local Government (Ireland) Acts, 1898 to 1919.
I move:—
In sub-section (2), line 27, to delete the figures "1919" and insert in lieu thereof the figures "1924." That is to cover the present Bill when it becomes an Act.
Mr. HOGAN
It is a verbal error, and I am accepting the amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Question—"That Section 5, as amended, stand part of the Bill"— put and agreed to.
Question—"That the Title stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
