I move that this Bill be read a Second Time. It is a Bill to enable the Minister for Finance to borrow and provide money to enable the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to carry out the necessary extensions to the telephone system. When the British Government purchased the telephone system from the National Telephone Co. it was arranged that the money for the purpose, and for the necessary extension, should be advanced direct to the Post Office from the Consolidated Fund rather than by Votes at any particular period or from year to year. Various amending Acts have been introduced in Great Britain. Up to this we have advanced money out of the Central Fund to the Post Office for the extension of the telephone, under the authority of the British Acts as adapted by the Adaptation of Enactments Act. However, it is undesirable to proceed in that way, because a difficulty naturally arises in regard to the limit. It might be held that we could continue to lend up to the entire unexpended amount under the British Acts at the time of the separation, or it might be necessary to fix what would be the Irish proportion of the unexpended amount allowed to be advanced out of the Consolidated Fund. We have advanced to the Post Office since the taking over, in the year 1922-23, £64,500. Last year we advanced £70,000. It is estimated that in this year £150,000 will be advanced, and that the sum of £500,000 now asked for will carry us on until the 31st March, 1926. It has been felt that it was better to bring into the scope of this particular Bill the sums that have already been advanced under the British Acts which came over, so that we would have done this all under the authority of our own Act, with the definite limitation of £500,000. If the British procedure is followed here further Bills of this nature will be introduced as necessary for the purpose of enabling further sums to be advanced to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs for this purpose. The borrowing will be done probably from some Pension Fund to which it will suit to have the money repaid in the way in which it will be repaid, by annual terminal payments.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - TELEPHONE CAPITAL BILL.—SECOND STAGE.
Do I understand the Minister to say that this Bill will be retrospective, and that the sums already issued from the Central Fund will be included in the £500,000, and that the £500,000 will cover the period from 1922 to 1926, that is, £500,000 for about four years?
That is so, roughly. I stated the amounts already advanced were, in the year 1922-23, £64,500, £70,000 last year, and it has been estimated that £150,000 will be required in the current year. That will leave a fairly substantial balance for the next year. If we were satisfied that more would be required it would be possible, of course, in the interval to take steps to provide more.
AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE took the Chair.
What exactly will this expenditure be on? Would the Minister give us some information as to what will be the nature of the work?
I would like to ask the Minister for Posts to give us full information upon the position, and the purpose for which this money is to be applied. We have had from the Minister for Finance a statement that some of the moneys which are proposed to be granted under this Bill have already been expended, and I think it would be well to know whether it is intended simply to continue on the same lines of expenditure for the next two years as for the past two years or whether there is any intention to extend the telephone system to any degree. I had thought when this Bill received a First Reading that it was a proposal to elaborate somewhat the telephone system, and generally to extend telephony through the country, and that what was required was a large new capital sum. I think that the Minister should take this opportunity to enlighten us as to the policy of his Department respecting the development of telephony; how far it is intended, for instance, to introduce the telephone in substitution for the telegraph, whether it is his hope to extend the telephone system throughout the country, rural as well as urban, and whether he has any expectation regarding a new system of linking up of exchanges. I think in a general way the Minister should be invited at least to give the Dáil full information respecting his policy and what he hopes to do with the remainder of the half-million pounds that is now sought.
Deputy Johnson is quite correct in his anticipations regarding the contemplated development of the telephone system. On previous occasions it was made pretty clear to the Dáil that this has been the settled policy. The British left this country in rather an undeveloped state telephonically. As a matter of fact, with the exception of the cities and certain important towns, it could reasonably be said that we had no telephone system at all, that at most it was only a skeleton system. I do think that our predecessors did intend, prior to the European war, to embark on some such comprehensive development as we now have in mind. At any rate, whether their expressed intentions were really to be carried out or not, is a matter that we need not really dwell on now. But immediately on the advent of our administration we proceeded to ascertain what could be done in this direction, and we drew up various schemes covering not only the extension of those parts which were already tapped but of development into those areas, like Connaught, which have practically no telephones whatever. The first step in this direction was the supplementing of the main arteries connecting the principal towns. There is no use in considering a national system of joining up the smaller towns and villages without first providing for those main arteries, and as soon as the Engineering Department had been enabled to remake the destruction of the last two years, attention was directed to the building up of those collecting arteries, these main junctions. We are now engaged on that work, and at the moment extra telephone cables have been laid down between Dublin and Cork, and between Dublin and Mullingar, and we are on the way to extending those cables from Mullingar to Athlone, Longford, Castlerea and Roscommon. Also, we intend to supplement the main lines to the NorthWest. As far as the direct South or the direct North is concerned, we are fairly adequately served. The moment that these main lines are completed, and every effort is being made to expedite their completion, it is intended to cut into the sub-districts, the smaller towns, and subsequently the villages, and finally the country districts, otherwise to push on with a universal scheme of telephony.
There is one thing that can limit our development speed and that is the shortage of technical labour. It is unfortunately the case that when the British withdrew from this country, they were wise enough from their own viewpoint to take with them a great many men who were essential to developments of this kind and who would be very useful to us at the present juncture. But matters are as they are and we have to face the situation as it is. We are, therefore, limited in our speed by the fact that we are short of this technical arm. A good deal of pressure has been brought to bear on me from members of the Dáil and from public bodies to push on telephone development, but there is one line to which we are very keen on giving preferential treatment, and that is the cooperative creameries. I have a list here in anticipation of some questions being raised by the Farmers' Party, pointing to a considerable number of stations that have been joined up within the last six months; others that are actually in progress at the moment, and others still that have been facilitated by the installation of call offices in the neighbourhood. But there are others far removed from any centre of population which will undoubtedly cost a great deal of money not only to the State but to the creameries themselves if the work is embarked on. With regard to this I would say that we may not be justified in spending this money until such time as we see what further shape the directional wireless system may take in the immediate future. If it did happen that we could utilise directional wireless, the expense of equipping these creameries, which are, of course, the first consideration, by directional wireless, would be very little; it would be quite infinitesimal. There is, as I say, a general desire on the part of the country that no time would be lost in bringing this State to that level of telephonic equipment which we find in certain Continental countries. The Dáil can absolutely rely on it that not a moment is being lost in so equipping the State. If many towns have not already had their telephones installed it is because of the huge amount of destruction which we have had to replace, and it is solely because of that. We would indeed have been in a position to announce now that possibly not less than two or three score of the smaller towns would be so equipped were it not for that waste during twelve or eighteen months. A good part of this money is also needed for Dublin. In Dublin prior to our time you had something like 10,000 pairs of wires. That was the maximum capacity of the local machinery. People in pre-war days had to wait very often six, eight, and in some cases twelve months and longer for a telephone. Immediately after taking over we proceeded with a very comprehensive scheme of wiring and we are now in the neighbourhood of the completion of something like 10,000 extra pairs. In other words, double the local capacity, in the brief period of two or three years. We have laid as many pairs of wires in Dublin since this State came into existence as our predecessors did during the whole life of the telephone. That is not bad progress, and the result is that, except in a very few districts in Dublin, we are now in a position to put up telephones practically overnight. That is the experience of people in Dublin, and the Department has been thanked by people every other day for the expedition shown in this work. We have scores of such letters, and if we had the necessary technical machinery very much more progress would have been made. At any rate this Bill is essential, and the money will be well utilised. It will repay the cost itself. The State will not lose a farthing.
Is it in contemplation to develop any manufactory in the Post Office in connection with the production of equipment?
I had intended for some time past that, as many members of the Dáil as possible should have an opportunity of getting to know some of the outstanding features of the Post Office service. It is their duty, I think, to acquaint themselves personally with a service of that kind. It had been pretty well excluded from their purview in the past, and for that reason I hope it will be possible for Deputies to see what has been done. One of these developments is the manufacturing arm which has been set up at Island Bridge in a large factory taken over from the British. Formerly, it was the practice here to send practically the entire of the repairs of Post Office machinery across the Channel, and to have the repairs executed there. That was a waste and a loss of money to this country, naturally, and, of course, it also lessened the amount of employment to be given in this country. We took immediate steps to have that remedied. We have now set up this factory, and we are employing at the moment about 150 people, mainly mechanics. The number of people we are employing is increasing, and we anticipate that before the end of the year it will reach 200. What the number will ultimately attain I cannot say, but the policy of the Post Office at the moment is to see that everything possible, whether telephone cabinets, furniture, instruments, or anything else, must be made in this country. To do work of this highly technical character needs expensive machinery, and in the case of the men engaged on it a certain amount of technical training. Needless to say, all this will require time, but we are on the track of grappling with that whole subject and of keeping in this country the very large sums of money which formerly left it for Post Office equipment here. That is our policy.
The Minister has referred to the lack of expert workers. I suppose we may take it that he is exerting his influence in the proper quarters to see that increased facilities will be provided for people to learn and get trained for all the skilled work that is required to be done.
I would like the Minister to state if his Department has in contemplation any comprehensive plan for the extension of the telephone service to the rural areas of Ireland. By rural areas I do not mean towns in the rural districts, but rather isolated houses in rural districts.
We have attempted to secure the nucleus of material for technical purposes from the source hinted at by Deputy Professor Thrift. We are not oblivious of the importance of that, but as the Deputy, I think, will admit, it is a matter that takes time. Regarding the rural post, we have at the moment a delegation at the Stockholm International Congress, and their instructions are, in addition to the congressional work, to investigate on the spot the working of a system peculiar to Scandinavia, a rural system which may be applicable here. I hope to be able to give further enlightenment on that point when the Annual Report comes along.
Mr. O'CONNELL
I would like to say a word by way of approval of the programme of work which has been outlined by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I think the extension of the telephone system throughout the country is very necessary, and especially in a country like ours, where there is a scattered population and where the Post Office service of the more common kind must necessarily be proportionately more expensive than in a thickly populated country like Great Britain. I think that this is the best way to extend the postal facilities throughout the country. I think it is preferable to do it in that way rather than to attempt to extend purely postal facilities. We could get a better service and, I believe, a more economical one by means of the telephone system extended in the way that the Minister proposes to do it than we could get by merely extending the letter deliveries. I was particularly glad to hear the Minister's suggestions and proposals with regard to the manufacture of post office machinery and requirements generally in this country. That is a branch of the service in which I believe there are great possibilities, and I certainly think the Minister should get every encouragement from the Dáil in his desire to have such a service provided and developed as he proposes. I think the Dáil will have no difficulty in assenting to this measure, and if the plans which the Minister has outlined are carried out I believe they will do all that he thinks they should do, and that if he finds it necessary to come to the Dáil again and ask for power to borrow a greater amount than is mentioned in this Bill to carry out work along the lines he has indicated, I am confident he will be granted the power he seeks.
One is glad to be able to support what Deputy O'Connell has stated about the manufacture of the special requirements needed for the Post Office at home. At the same time, I would like to know from the Minister whether calculations are made at regular intervals as to the cost of these particular commodities manufactured at the works that he has told us of, and whether he is satisfied that he can produce there the same articles at a lower rate than that at which they could be obtained if manufactured in other workshops not under the control of the Ministry. While one is anxious to see these industries started, one is not anxious to pay more for the different commodities produced in the Post Office factory than they could be obtained for by contract in outside factories in the Free State. That is a point on which I would like to have some assurance from the Minister. The next point is in connection with the factories for the production of these commodities. I take it that the demand for these particular commodities is more or less a temporary one to meet the extensions that the Minister has in view. If that be so, the Minister ought to be slow in the way of laying down large and expensive plant for the production of commodities, the demand for which in the future may not be at all equal to what it is at the moment. There is a third point on which I would like some information. The Dáil is aware that the charges for our telephone connections here are somewhat higher than they are elsewhere. What I would like to know is if, as a result of these extensions, we are likely to have a reduction in these charges in the near future. It is obvious that with more extensions we are likely to have a larger income than we have had hitherto, and hence I would like to know if the local charges in future are to be lower than what they are now.
I desire to know from the Minister if it is his intention to connect the telephone service with the residences of dispensary medical officers in the country. I understand that during the past twelve months strong representations have been made to the Minister on the matter from County Boards of Health. I think it is very necessary that these connections should be made owing to the fact that dispensary doctors at present are unable to get in touch with the central hospital in any county at night for the purpose of ordering out the ambulance to take urgent cases to hospital. I would like to know from the Minister if he has given any kind of favourable consideration to the representations made to him in one particular case, namely, by the County Meath Board of Health.
If representations are made to me in respect of the particular institution to which the Deputy refers he may rely that careful consideration will be given to the matter, but I might point out that in some cases very exorbitant demands, which are not justified, are sometimes made to my Department. Deputy Good rightly asks the question whether a State factory is able to compete on equal terms with private enterprise. I am in a position to satisfy the Deputy, without any shadow of doubt whatever, that in the overwhelming majority of cases not only are we able to compete with private enterprise, but even taking into consideration the usual overhead and other charges, we are able to beat them easily on some very important contracts. I am also satisfied, in this particular State Department at any rate, that the public is getting value for its money, and nowhere more so than in this State factory. It will be known to Deputies, or to many of them at any rate, that in these State factories a regular output per hour is needed, and nothing is taken for chance. Every man has got to do a certain thing within a certain time, and if he fails to do that then he has to get out. That is the alternative. That is our system, and for that reason we can absolutely guarantee that the State is going to get value for its money.