Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Jul 1924

Vol. 8 No. 7

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 33—DUBLIN METROPOLITAN POLICE.

MINISTER for JUSTICE (Mr. O'Higgins)

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £343,983 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for expenses of Dublin Metropolitan Police.

That Vote represents an increase of £16,446 on last year's estimate. Savings amounting to £46,067 are effected under sub-head (B) (which deals with the pay of the Force), the saving there being £37,570; and sub-head (C) (clothing and equipment), on which there is a saving of £8,497. Those two substantial savings are more than offset by excesses under sub-head (A) (salaries, etc.), £1,052; sub-head (K) (pensions), £3,411, and sub-head (KK) (compensation under Article X. of the Treaty), £58,292. Under sub-head (A) (salaries, wages, and allowances), £15,237, Deputies will notice that an increase of £1,052 is caused by the appointment of a secretary in the Chief Commissioner's Office, an additional copying typist, and the reinstatement of a second-class clerk in the Dublin Metropolitan Police Courts. This second-class clerk resigned his position in the Courts after the signing of the Treaty, but before the approval, by the Dáil, of the Treaty, on the grounds that he had been harshly treated on account of his national sympathies. He obtained an appointment in the Dáil Ministry of Home Affairs, and on the commencement of the recent Irregular troubles he was dismissed on suspicion of being hostile to the Government. His case was investigated, and it was decided to reinstate him in the Dublin Metropolitan Police Courts, so that it is really a case of reinstatement. But the item did not appear on last year's Vote. The post of secretary in the Chief Commissioner's Office was one that always existed, but was absent from the Estimates for 1923-24.

Under this heading you have the salaries of the Police Magistrates. The Chief Magistrate at present has a basic salary of £1,200, plus bonus, the bonus being £263. He has, therefore, a total income of £1,463, and the two other Magistrates have basic salaries of £1,000, plus bonus of £263, giving them a total income of £1,263. When Part 3 of the Courts of Justice Act, 1924, comes into operation there will be a District Court for the whole of the Saorstát, and it is probable that there will be three Justices of that District Court allocated to the Dublin Metropolitan area, at present served by the three existing Police Magistrates. The salary fixed by the Act for senior Justices appointed to the D.M.P. area is £1,200, inclusive. That is, in effect, a salary less than the salary of the present Chief Magistrate by £263. The salary fixed by the Act for the other two Justices to be assigned to the Metropolitan Police area is £1,100 inclusive, being £163 less than the salary of the present Police Magistrates. The salaries of Justices of the District Court are to be borne out of Voted monies until 31st March, 1927, and after that date will be charged on the Central Fund.

Mr. JOHNSON

Will the Dublin Justices henceforward be included in a Vote other than the D.M.P. Vote?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Yes. They will appear on the District Justices Vote until March, 1927, and after that they will be chargeable on the Central Fund. When Part 3 of the Courts of Justice Act comes into operation, there will be a District Justices Vote which will include the salaries of all the Judges of the District Court and of the staffs attached to the court. This particular item will then disappear from the D.M.P. Estimate. There is a vacancy in the office of Chief Clerk which has not been filled. The Chief Clerk retired under Article X. of the Treaty.

Passing to sub-head (B), dealing with the pay of the Force, a saving of £37,570 on that Estimate is based on a requirement of 1,140 men as the normal working strength of the Force. A large number of men have retired and are retiring under Article X. of the Treaty, and it is necessary to make provision for the pay of 180 men, in order that there may be sufficient recruits trained to fill the vacancies. As an offset against this, a lump sum deduction of £13,321 is made in respect of the estimated saving in pay of the men retiring. 210 members of the force will be retiring as between this and December of the current year.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

Will these retirements be in accordance with the provisions of the Treaty or will they be normal retirements?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

They will be retirements under Article X. of the Treaty. The position is that out of 1,124 men who were transferred on the 1st April, 1922, 423 have actually retired, and 190 have applied to retire, so that out of 1,124 men transferred only 600 are now serving. There have been, from some quarters, suggestions that it was the wish or the policy of the Government to cause men to retire under Article X. of the Treaty, and that statement received a certain amount of publicity through the Press and otherwise. That statement is the exact reverse of the truth. We have done everything possible to keep on in the service of the Government and of the people the members of the Force who were transferred. We are disappointed that out of eleven hundred men transferred, who for the most part are probably sons of the small farmers of the country, such a large number would decide to take advantage of an Article which was inserted in the Treaty to meet the case of men who would be utterly obnoxious to a new Government, or to whom a new Government would be utterly obnoxious. There is something rather disappointing about that wholesale rush to take advantage of the terms, of that particular Article in the Treaty, and I feel it has been strained beyond the intention of the framers of the document.

There are four women police provided for in the Estimate. There was some curiosity expressed on a previous occasion as to the purposes for which they were employed, and I find that they are chiefly employed in cases of offences against children, molestation of women, and sex offences generally. Searching of female prisoners is also carried out by them. They are sometimes engaged by private shopkeepers to watch for shoplifters and pickpockets, and one part of their duty might be to obtain evidence in cases of illegal betting, palmistry, fortune-telling, and cases of that kind. I have dealt with the strength of the force as on the 1st April, 1922. It was 1,124; 423 have actually gone, and 190 are due to go, and will probably go between this and December. In addition to these retirements, there were certain retirements which might be described as normal owing to age, illness, and so on. There were about 110 such retirements. The pay of the force was readjusted in March of the current year.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

A nice word.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It is a most appropriate word. It was readjusted to meet the fall which had taken place in the cost of living since the previous rates were fixed. These rates were identical with the rates fixed for the British Police Force as a result of the recommendations of the Desborough Committee which sat in 1919. During the period in which that Committee was sitting the average cost of living figure was 115 above pre-war, and since December, 1921, the cost of living figure has never been more than 100 above pre-war. The most recent figure was less than 90 above pre-war.

Mr. DAVIN

In practice.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

To meet this reduction the police rates of pay were revised as from the 1st March. As I explained in dealing with the Gárda Síochána Estimate, it is not the intention that these present rates of pay would be subject to fluctuations with trifling changes in the cost of living. It is intended that the pay of the police would remain unaltered, while the cost of living gravitated between 70 on one side and 100 on the other, and only in the event of a change outside these figures, either upwards above 100 or downwards below 70, would there be any proposal to alter the rates of pay, so that for all practical purposes the members of this Force can feel that the present rates are permanent, static rates, and not likely to be changed in the near future. That revision of pay was effected on exactly the same basis as was adopted in adjusting the pay of all other Government servants, whose remuneration varies with the cost of living.

The pay of a constable who has completed his training at the Depot is now £3 per week, increasing by annual increments to a normal maximum of 78/- at the end of 10 years' service. It is as well to remind Deputies that in 1914 the initial pay of a constable was 25/- a week, and that the present rate of £3 a week represents an increase of 140 per cent. on the 1914 figure. A sergeant gets as his initial rate at present 87/- per week, and his initial rate in 1914 was 37/-. You have there an increase of 135 per cent. over the 1914 figure. Deputies will, of course, keep an eye on the fact that the cost of living figure at present is less than 90 above pre-war, so that while it is natural there will always be discontent when there is a proposal to change the rates of pay— no man accepts light-heartedly or gladly a reduction of his income—when you get down to facts, such facts as these figures I have given now, the basis of the discontent is not very sound or very substantial.

Mr. JOHNSON

Will the Minister say how far it is true that the resignations under Article X. of the Treaty have been concurrent with or followed the announcement of the reduction in pay?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I can answer that question. All the applications were in prior to the reduction in pay and prior to any suggestion of reduction in pay, and they have not been withdrawn since.

I have here tables showing a comparison of 1924 with 1914, and it might be well to run through it. In 1914 the Chief Commissioner had a salary of £1,000 a year; in 1924 he has a salary of £1,100. The Assistant Commissioner in 1914 had £800; he has now £820, rising to £910. The Chief Superintendent, pre-war, had £300 to £400; he has now £650 to £800. A Superintendent had £250 to £320, and now has £425 to £585. An Inspector had £120 to £160 in 1914; he has now £280 to £320. A Station Sergeant in 1914 had 41/- a week; he has now from 100/- to 105/-. A Sergeant had from 37/- to 39/- weekly in 1914, and in 1924 has from 87/- to 98/6. A Constable in 1914 had from 25/- to 33/- a week, and has now from 60/- to 83/-. A recruit constable in training in the Depot had in 1914 20/- a week, and has now 50/- a week, and Deputies will not lose sight of the fact that these figures include free housing and free uniform, and consequently are a little better than they look, even at first sight.

Mr. DAVIN

Does the Minister say that the houses are provided for the constables or sergeants?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I am speaking of the recruits. Oriel House appeared on last year's Estimates, and disappears from the Estimates for the current year. The strength of that institution in November, 1923, prior to disbandment, was 72 men, not including the director, and of that 72 men, 28 were appointed to the new Detective Branch of the D.M.P. One of these received rank as superintendent, two received the rank of inspector, five became sergeants, and twenty constables. Of the twenty who were accepted as constables, one received an immediate benefit of eight annual increments in the normal scale, four received six increments, and the rest received four. Five members of the Transport Branch of Oriel House were accepted for transport duty in the D.M.P. The members of Oriel House who were not transferred to the D.M.P. received disbandment gratuities of eight weeks' and four weeks' pay, according to service, and a number were employed on protective duties when the D.M.P. remained below strength. In filling vacancies in Government Departments ex-members of Oriel House receive the same preferential consideration as ex-members of the National Army.

The present strength of the Detective Force is one chief superintendent, one superintendent, five inspectors, fifteen sergeants, and thirty-eight constables. Taking the present strength of the whole force, you have a commissioner, one assistant commissioner, one chief superintendent, seven superintendents, twenty-five inspectors, forty-two station sergeants, 145 sergeants, 843 constables, 189 recruits in training, and four women police, making a present total of 1,258. That figure must be taken with a reminder that quite a large number of men are due to leave under Article X. of the Treaty within the next four or five months. In recruiting for the Force preference has been given, and will continue to be given, to the applications of men who had service in the National Army. Of 663 recruits accepted since April, 1922, 267 were ex-members of the National Army, and 41 were ex-members of either Oriel House or the Protective Corps. Twenty-eight ex-members of the Force who retired or were dismissed for political reasons prior to the Treaty, have been reinstated, and under the provisions of the Superannuation Act of last year the previous service and period of absence of these men will count for purposes of increment of pay and also for pension.

Mr. JOHNSON

Could the Minister say anything respecting the position of applications for recruitment to the D.M.P. of ex-members of the R.I.C.? Is there any debar or interference of any kind, or are they welcome?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

There is no bar that I know of, and men of good type and of good character will be welcome.

Mr. DAVIN

Will they get credit for their service in the R.I.C.?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

No.

Mr. MORRISSEY

Is the Minister prepared to make any allowance for them with respect to age qualifications?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I would not like to say yes, as a general rule, but always in the case of a good man, a desirable candidate, that rule can be made a little elastic. Sub-head (C) is for clothing and equipment, £3,382. You have a decrease there of £8,497, which would be due, I think, to the small issue of clothing to be made for the current year. The clothing and equipment consists of trousers, night helmets, leather waist-belts, armlets, and a small quantity of serge and cloth tunics for new recruits. When uniforms are part worn they are issued to recruits to wear them until the full life-time of the garments have expired. I think that that is feasible. Occasionally men retiring give up uniforms in a condition that precludes their being issued to new recruits. No issue of new uniform is made to men who have sent in application to retire under Article X. of the Treaty. As in the case of the Gárda Síochána, contracts are made by the Government Contracts Committee, and they are notified in advance of the requirements of the Force. There is an item of £571 under sub-head (D) for transport.

Mr. JOHNSON

Do the members of the D.M.P. get their own suits made for 15/-?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

No; that is peculiar to the Gárda. The conditions are different. A man stationed down the country in the Gárda Síochána is not as easily suited as a man in the city, and it was considered better for the purpose of having the Gárda properly turned out that they should get the uniform made up locally by a local tailor to ensure a proper fit. There is not the same consideration for members of a Force stationed in Dublin.

Major COOPER

But do the Gárda not get their uniforms when they are in the Depôt?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

They get them made up locally.

Major COOPER

But are they not in the Depôt when they get their uniforms first? One sees them here in Dublin.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

They get one uniform there. Under "Transport" there is a reduction of £81, which is due to the fact that a motor prison van has replaced the old horse-drawn vehicle, and that eliminates charges for forage and shoeing of the horse. It is worth mentioning that the change was effected by adopting the body of the old van to a new Leyland chassis at a cost of £650. There is the fact that apart from being an economy to some extent, the motor van is better suited for the purpose and will minimise the risk of a recurrence of the incident which took place some months ago, when an attempt was made to rescue a prisoner from the horse-drawn van, an attempt which was only defeated by the courage and presence of mind of the driver. There is an item of £388 for law expenses. The fee paid to the solicitor for the Metropolitan Police is £300, plus bonus, which varies according to the cost of living.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

Does that mean a daily attendance at the courts?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It means he is at their disposal at all times when his services are necessary, but it does not necessarily mean daily attendance.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

It is a retaining fee?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Yes.

Mr. WHITE

Could I get in a few words about the conveyance of prisoners?

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

The Deputy will get his chance later on.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I think that the Deputy missed his chance on the Gárda Síochána Vote.

Mr. WHITE

You got that through with great speed.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Under sub-head (F) there is a sum of £971 for incidental expenses, which include laundry work and medicine. The laundry work is paid for by deduction from the men's pay, and unless there is a serious outbreak of illness there is little variation in the cost of medicine, which consists of prescriptions ordered by the medical officer. Sub-heads (G), (H) and (I) do not seem to call for any particular comment.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

resumed the Chair.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I would like to touch on the question of the strength of this Force, compared with the growing population of the city for, say, 30 or 40 years. In 1883 the population figure was 349,645, and the strength of the Force at that time was 1,245. In 1891 the population figure had grown to 352,277, and the strength of the Force was still 1,245. In 1901, the population figure was 392,797, and the strength of the Force was 1,233.

In 1911 the population figure was 416,104 and the strength of the Force remained much the same, namely, 1,231. The estimated population for the current year is 432,000 and the strength of the Force stands at 1,140. So we have had for the last 30 or 40 years a very substantial increase in the population of the area in which this Force served, an increase of 24 per cent., while the strength of the Force suffered a reduction of 8 per cent. You had an extension of buildings and streets in suburban areas, and taking it all round you had a considerable increase in the duties of the Force. For instance, traffic is a comparatively new thing. I find, going back on the records of the Force, that this duty, which at present takes 75 men daily, had not a single members of the Force assigned to it in 1914. Thus you have a combination at the moment of steadily increasing duties and a rather low strength and I think that the general efficiency of the Force, in spite of these facts, is on the increase.

I am not quite certain at the moment that at some stage during the current financial year it may not be necessary to get powers from the Dáil to increase the statutory maximum, to increase the strength of the Force. In 1922 you had issued 11,000 summonses and 3,925 arrests were affected by the Force. In 1923 the number of summonses rose to 17,251 and the number of arrests to 5,288. Those figures do not necessarily point to an increased lawlessness on the part of the population of the capital but they point, I think, to increased vigilance and somewhat increased energy on the part of the Force. Deputies in considering this Vote will have regard to the fact that the sums provided for compensation and provided by the police courts are substantial, and the actual cost of the police Force proper may be estimated at £208,690, which represents a saving on last year of £45,919, so that the increase as shown on the estimates may create the false impression and is somewhat deceptive. It is due to the increased pension burden.

Mr. HEWAT

Might I ask the Minister, in connection with pensions, if any cognisance is taken of the pension scheme in connection with the pay or did it come into calculation at all, or is it on any sort of contributory basis?

Mr. GRATTAN ESMONDE

In sub-head (C) there is an item of £25.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

If sub-head (C) is discussed now we cannot go back on the others.

Major BRYAN COOPER

I have something to say on sub-head (A), but it may also come under sub-head (KK). It is hard to disentangle the two. The position indicated by the Minister with regard to the number of retirements from the Force is a very disquieting one to a certain extent, because it practically means that in two and a half years since the signing of the Treaty more than half of the Force that is taken over has gone.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Not quite more than half. There are 600 at present serving out of 1,124 transferred.

Major BRYAN CONOPER

And 120 are due to go before December.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

190.

Major BRYAN COOPER

That means that before December there will only be 410 left of the 1,100 taken over. That is obviously a situation which must cause certain difficulties both in administration and in the efficiency of the Force. That means, broadly speaking, that at least half the Force will have less than 2½ years' service, and that in a comparatively large city like this. From my own personal knowledge I know that the recruits coming in are of a very good stamp. I was told that secondary teachers, not foreseeing what the Minister for Education had in store for them, were about to seek positions in the D.M.P. I know that the men coming in from the National Army are men of very good character, indeed. However good their records are, it will take time to make them efficient police officers. I think that one of the first directions in which an advance should be made is in that department referred to by the Minister, namely, that of traffic control. The Minister said that we have 75 men employed on traffic control. That is not an enormous number.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I was drawing a contrast with 1914.

Major BRYAN COOPER

Yes, that there were none in 1914. In 1914 there was certainly a policeman at the junction of Grafton Street and Nassau Street. He may not have been put down as controlling traffic and nothing else, but that was his chief duty. The Minister will, perhaps, be able to elucidate the position a little, but he certainly did control traffic, whatever his title was, and it is obvious that there must have been men who did control traffic, because motor traffic in 1914 had developed within seventy-five per cent. of the pitch it is at now. I think seventy-five men are too few for traffic control. I think that is noticeable already. A friend of mine told me that on coming in to the city from the Drumcondra side he did not see any policeman until he reached Parnell Square. And from that to the centre of the city there were only four policemen at a normal time in the morning. It is obvious that if you have seventy-five men scattered from Drum-condra to Killiney and from Ringsend to Terenure, there will be areas where there is no traffic control, and it is important to train recruits to traffic control as soon as may be, even if it necessitates the putting on of new men. Another point is this epidemic of retirement from the Force. Why are we confronted with a Force fifty per cent. new? I think one reason is that there was a feeling of insecurity amongst the men, not so much founded on the reduction of pay as on a feeling that there might be in the future an altered state of affairs in which they would get no pensions at all, and that they might just as well claim their pensions now.

In any event, there was no possibility of their getting pensions on a higher scale than under Article X. of the Treaty, and in the interests of themselves and their families, they thought that they should get out as soon as they could. There was a further feeling; the D.M.P. in the last four or five years has come through a very difficult time, because they were placed in the humiliating position of being the only people in the city who had not a gun. They did not enjoy the guns in the short period that they had them, and asked to have them taken back. It must be degrading to the morale of a police force who had to stand by while a shop was being held up, because they had nothing but their batons. In some cases they had the more humiliating experience of being held up by girls. That is a thing no man who takes a pride in his uniform can stand. Self-respect forbade them to come out, but now that that time is over, they come out for a rest. I hope that the Minister will tell us whether anything was done to combat that feeling. Was any special appeal made to those men? Did the Minister parade them and tell them they were stretching the Treaty to an unfair extent in claiming pensions, and that the country and the city needed their services, and that the country would be grateful for those services, because the moral factor is one of very great importance now? I feel that, possibly, if men had been appealed to in that way, and been shown the situation in the way that the Minister has shown it to-night, we should not have been faced with this position. That is a point which causes a certain amount of anxiety and disquietude.

Professor MAGENNIS

Like Deputy Cooper, I am uncertain as to whether the question I wish to raise belongs to (A) or (KK). I think it belongs to (A). The Chief Magistrate of the Dublin Metropolitan area had a salary of £1,200 plus a bonus of £263. Under the recent Courts of Justice Act he becomes a District Justice with a maximum salary (and no bonus) of £1,200. That is to say, were he to continue as a District Justice his position would be so much the worse. Is the amount under (KK) a compensation under Article X. of the Treaty which is set down as for probable additional charges made to cover the case of the retirement of the Chief City Magistrate? When the Courts of Justice Act was a Bill passing through this House, I had the temerity to set down an amendment with a view to preserving the primacy of his position and the security, that is, that the status and tenure should not be made worse by the alteration in the system. That amendment in a slightly modified form, to the best of my recollection, was accepted by the Attorney-General of that day. However, it appears now from the Minister's statement that the Chief Magistrate, as a District Justice, will have a maximum income of £1,200 from that office. Consequently, I have assumed, perhaps hastily, that he is bound to retire. If so, is the provision for that retirement included in the proposed Estimate?

Mr. DAVIN

I am rather reluctant to say anything in connection with the debate on this Estimate, lest it might be said by the Minister that anything I had got to say was brought forward in a rather mischievous manner. I do not think the Minister can fully appreciate the fact that the large number of retirements that have taken place, or of which notice has been given by the individuals concerned, are not due to the fact that they seek to get the benefit of the conditions which the Treaty entitled them to, so much as to provide for any future reductions of pay which affect their pensions. I think if the Minister, in regard to the future conditions of the D.M.P., gave something in the nature of an assurance to the House that the pay of the D.M.P. was not to be affected by the fictitious figures put forward as affecting the cost of living, there would be a greater desire on the part of the old members to continue to serve in the D.M.P. I think everyone is anxious to do everything that is possible to continue the service of the old men, because the effect of the retirement of a large body of the older members of the D.M.P. is not likely to have a good effect on the work which members of the Force are called upon to perform. I would like to make a protest that the figure of eighty-five per cent., which is given as the increase over the pre-war cost of living, is found in practice not to be the actual figure which prevails.

If the average housewife goes out to purchase anything which could be regarded as being a necessary of life, she will find that the figures presented to her in the Government statistics do not really represent the conditions which prevail. Therefore, the figure of 85 per cent. should not be stressed in this matter by Ministers who are so accustomed to trotting out these figures when there is a question raised as to the conditions of service, either in the D.M.P. or any other body of State servants. We know that the members of the D.M.P. are used to taking a drink in the canteen—taking a pint as it has been referred to. The cost of a pint to a D.M.P. man to-day is 400 per cent greater than it was in 1914. If they like to take advantage of the holidays which are allowed them, they will find that railway fares are anything from 120 to 150 per cent. higher than pre-war. These are things which should not be overlooked by the Minister. If the Minister pursues the matter further he will find, with regard to everything which the D.M.P. require, that the figure of 85 per cent. does not represent the conditions which prevail at the moment. If I understood him properly, he stated that there was not likely to be any further reduction in the pay of the D.M.P. unless the cost of living figure, which is given as 85 per cent., is reduced to 70 per cent. or under. If the Minister makes a definite statement that there is no likelihood in the near future of anything in the nature of a drastic reduction in pay, so far as the Force is concerned, as far as I can gather from speaking to some of the men, he will get an assurance, perhaps from a good many who have put in their papers already, that they will continue to serve the Free State Government.

I agree with the Minister absolutely that the terms which have been given under Clause X. of the Treaty to members of the D.M.P. who express the desire not to serve the Government set up by their own people, have been strained beyond any degree that could be regarded as a commonsense degree. For instance, I came across a case the other day of a young member of the Force who came to me and told me that he had put in his papers to retire. He stated that he had no prospects of finding any other employment, but that the pension he was likely to receive would amount to 15s. 10d. per week. That will give Deputies an idea of the anxiety to take advantage of the very good conditions offered. I told him that it was a shame for a young man like him, who had no prospects of finding any other employment, to resign and accept a pension which, without any additional income, would not be sufficient to support him. Employers should definitely state that while there is such a large amount of unemployment in the country no inducement would be held out to young men of that type to take advantage of the taxpayers' money with the prospect of finding employment in any other business. I merely quote that case to show that there is a desire on the part of such young men to take advantage of the very good conditions of pension. Such an attitude on their part should be counteracted by the general body of employers stating that they are not prepared to provide employment for such men, especially when there is such a large number of other men unemployed, who have no other means of earning a livelihood. I hope the Minister will make something in the nature of a definite statement with regard to the question of any further reduction in pay.

There is, I think, no comparison between the figures in the Estimates for the uniforms of the Gárda Síochána and the sum provided for the uniforms of the D.M.P. I find that an inspector in the D.M.P. is made an allowance of £15 per year for uniform. I do not know how many uniforms an inspector would require, or what the cost of three or four uniforms would be, but I am sure that he could get a uniform under better conditions than the average citizen can get clothes. The Minister stated the other day that 15/- was the allowance given to a member of the Gárda Síochána for a "make up." Although that is only for a "make up," there is a considerable difference between that 15/- and the £15 given to the D.M.P. inspector for uniform. I think that ought to be explained.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It will be difficult to explain that.

Mr. DAVIN

The real reason why I intervened was to ask the Minister to give something in the nature of a definite statement in regard to the future conditions of the Force, especially as regards pay. If he does that he will probably find that even a number of those who have put in their papers may be induced to withdraw on the definite understanding that their conditions of service, particularly of pay, will not be interfered with in the near future.

Mr. CONLAN

I would like to ask the Minister what proportion of the Vote is paid out of the National Exchequer and what is the amount levied out of the local rates in the D.M.P. area?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is stated in the Appropriations-in-Aid.

Mr. JOHNSON

Yes, £52,000.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

A great deal of dissatisfaction has arisen— whether it be justifiable or not I am not going to argue at present—as a consequence of the recent cut, and the Minister in using that deft word "readjusted" in respect of it has justified such a cut, because of reference to conditions that prevailed before the war. I would like to urge in this matter— and it would follow upon other matters, too—that if cuts are to be made, or are not to be made, that they should be justified by reference to conditions relative to the National Exchequer and that there should not be this reference back to some pre-war period, as though that had any extraordinary or peculiar sanctity about it. When police constables, like others, have their pay cut by references to conditions which prevailed at a time, the details of which are not very immediate to them, and when they imagine that their condition, perhaps, is a great deal worse than it was, or a great deal better than it was, I think that that kind of argument is not really going to help. I suggest that we are now ten years away from the pre-war period and that if anything has to be done it should be done by some standard that would be more immediate to the conditions we are faced with to-day. I do know— and the Minister will have experienced it and other Departments will have experienced it—that a great deal of irritation is caused, and is in this particular case being caused, by reference to a pre-war standard, that the rate of living is so much higher than it was ten years ago, when it would be just as practicable to say that it was so much per cent. higher or lower fifteen or twenty years ago.

I think if there be justification for the D.M.P. cut, justification lies in the fact not that the standard of living has changed within ten years, but simply owing to the fact that the National Exchequer cannot afford certain burdens which it had hitherto undertaken. While referring to that I would like if the Minister could give any information regarding what we have already seen notice of in the Press. That is the attitude of the Ministry in regard to the challenge to the cut. As that cut would be governed by Article X of the Treaty it underlies this Estimate to this extent, that if that challenge be sustained in the courts of law——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Is not that matter at present under discussion in the courts?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It is.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Is not that matter at present in the courts?

Mr. FIGGIS

I agree, but I am not asking for any decision on matters that are sub judice. But to this extent, presumably, if the case that is now in the courts went against the Ministry it would require a supplementary Estimate to this. That is what I want to know, whether this Vote is supposed to be sufficiently wide to cover that possible contingency?

Mr. ESMONDE

I would like if the Minister could give any suggestion of how the computation of £25 for white gloves was arrived at. Does he assume that £25 worth of the present white gloves will be lost in the washing in the present year, or that they will be worn out? I do not know how many pairs of white gloves he expects to buy for £25. It seems a pretty large sum. Under sub-head (F) there is a large increase for advertisements. The amount is £124, while it was only £92 last year. I wonder could the Minister give us some explanation of the extraordinary increase with regard to newspapers, whatever it may mean. Finally, there is the general question under sub-head (KK), which I protest should not be included in this Vote. I think this sub-head should have been included in Vote 16, where the main charges under Article X. of the Treaty are included. When that Vote comes on I intend to raise the general treatment of that Article by the Government. I think, possibly, that some of the difficulties of the Minister might have been avoided if the D.M.P. had been treated under Article X in the same manner as other sections of the public service. If they had been put down under Vote 16 it would be clearly understood that the Force is being paid as part of the Treaty by the British Government because of resignations, and that the money would be refunded from this State. I think, possibly, it might be done. If the sub-head was not under this Vote, but under Vote 16, the Minister might have been saved some of the expense and trouble incurred as a result of Article X of the Treaty. The last point I wish to make is to draw attention to sub-head (L), some of the items in which are rather grotesque.

Major COOPER

Is Deputy Esmonde sweeping us off from sub-head (KK)?

Mr. ESMONDE

I wish to object to sub-head (L), some of the items of which are rather grotesque. One is publicans, pedlars' and chimney-sweepers' fees, £381. I think it is high time the D.M.P. area should be treated the same as the rest of the country, instead of having these rather grotesque and prehistoric appropriations in aid. These only tend to confuse the Estimates and the people as to how their money is being spent.

Major COOPER

I had intended to speak on sub-head (C) but Deputy Esmonde appears to have thrown it away like an old glove.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

A white glove.

Major COOPER

I wish not to support him, but to ask the Minister to buy as many gloves as possible, because as far as I can discover, we appear to be voting an establishment of 1,287 sergeants and constables, and only clothing 1,050 of them. I presume it is a matter of book-keeping, but when I read the Estimates I did form a horrible picture, only dissipated by this consolation, that there were white gloves, and that 240 odd received an allowance for boots, so that they were clothed at any rate, so far as the extremities are concerned. I suppose that is merely book-keeping. I think Deputy Hewat will agree that it is not business to enrol 1,287 men if you are only clothing 1,050, because the others would not seem to be qualified to carry out any very active functions.

Mr. JOHNSON

I hope the Deputy will consult with the Director of the Tailteann Games.

Major COOPER

I do not think the Tailteann Games are in order, but as far as I can gather from the posters, all those concerned in the Tailteann Games are going to be very heavily-clothed indeed. Possibly, these constables have been lent for that purpose, and therefore do not require uniforms. Coming to (KK), I do not entirely agree with Deputy Esmonde's contention that this sub-head ought to appear in Vote 16. But the inclusion of these pensions does inflate this Vote in a very serious manner, because we have actually arrived at the position when the Vote for pensions and compensation is 50 per cent. of the total Vote for pay. That is not a usual concurrence in any such Vote. The total Vote for the pay of the Force is £253,000, and the Vote for compensation and pensions is £129,000. That is a very striking contrast. Normally, one estimates about 10 per cent. for pensions. This is a burden that will go on, because as Deputy Davin said, many of the men retiring are comparatively young men, and we shall have the ordinary pension burden of people retiring owing to age going on side by side with it. I do not pretend to suggest what can be done. I do not suggest a violation of the Treaty. I think, if possible, steps should be taken to check any further retirements, even to the extent of a personal interview with the Minister. It might be a deterrent if it was held up before the eye of the prospective retirer, that he would have to go to the Minister and explain why he wished to retire. Even if we have to go to that, I think it will be preferable to a further inflation of this very large Vote.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

May I take it that Deputies have made any comments they wish to make under all the sub-heads and that I am concluding the discussion on the Estimate?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I suppose so, but I could not give a guarantee.

Mr. DAVIN

There is only one point I wish to raise. I desire to ask the Minister why he agrees to reinstate twenty-eight men who resigned from the D.M.P. from reasons of national sympathy and to give them credit for their service after reinstatement, and why it is that he is not giving the same concession to resigned R.I.C. men who might be considered fit and suitable candidates for the D.M.P.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Because one man has got a pension and the other has not. There is really no analogy; the Deputy rushes his fences. You are dealing with the ex-members of a Force that has been disbanded, whose cases have been considered by a committee and who are in receipt, or will be in receipt, of pensions. In the other case, you are dealing with men whose Force is still in existence. Deserving cases in that Force are offered and given reinstatement. I suppose I might as well deal now with Deputy Esmonde's white gloves. Each constable gets two pairs per year, and about 360 pairs are bought yearly. Deputy Professor Magennis asked if specific provision were made for a pension for the Chief Magistrate. No specific provision is made. When the Estimates were being prepared, there was no reason to suppose that the Chief Magistrate would retire under Article X. of the Treaty, and the Courts of Justice Act had not then been enacted, so that we made no forecast in respect of retirement in that quarter. If the Chief Magistrate is not reappointed as a District Justice the position with regard to his pension will not be in any way prejudiced by the omission. Deputy Hewat asked a question about pensions. The position is that 2½ per cent. is deducted from pay as contribution to pensions, and the pensions are then paid out of voted moneys under the Pension Scheme, which is covered under sub-head (K).

Major COOPER

Does this 2½ per cent. appear as an appropriation-in-aid or where does it appear?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It appears under sub-head (B). The Deputy will notice a note there at the bottom as to the deduction of 2½ per cent. from the pay of officers and men on account of pension, and a deduction from the men's pay for fines and so on. This pension business and Article X. of the Treaty have figured a good deal in the discussion. I did, and the policy of the Ministry generally was to do everything reasonably possible to prevail on these men to remain in the Force and to continue to serve. I did not, as Deputy Cooper suggested I might have done, hold any parade or address the men on the subject, but I know that the Commissioner went to considerable pains to show the men that they had every security by remaining, and that it would be an unfair thing, and perhaps not a very wise thing for themselves, to persist in retiring. But the lure of the pension was there, and the prospect of easy money, with nothing to do appealed, I suppose, to certain men. I have known cases of where men asked for reinstatement in the Force on the ground that they had been dismissed from political bias and because of their perfervid national sympathies, and then having secured, by letters and testimonals from Deputies, reinstatement, their names next crossed my desk as men seeking to resign from the Force under Article X. of the Treaty. So that they wanted to get in in order to get out under favourable conditions. That, of course, was rank dishonesty.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

Could that be allowed or was it allowed under Article X. of the Treaty?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It was not allowed. It was not allowed in spite of rather urgent entreaties from public representatives that it should be allowed. Deputy Davin set me a conundrum. He asked me to explain why it is that an inspector of the D.M.P. gets £15 per annum as a uniform allowance although a Guard only gets 15/- for the stitching of a uniform which is served out to him. Now £15 is adequate to buy an inspector his uniform.

Mr. DAVIN

How many uniforms?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

One in the year. The position with regard to a constable in the Guard is that he gets 15/-. The inspector has a higher rank and his uniform is somewhat more costly. He buys the complete uniform and all that is allowed is £15 per annum for that purpose. The Guard, on the other hand, is served out with the cloth, cut up in standard sizes and ready for stitching. It is sent down to him to his station, and all the local tailor has to do is to stitch the seams, having seen that the thing is a fair fit for the patient.

Mr. JOHNSON

Did the Minister ever inquire how much extra the Guard has to pay to the local tailor for the work?

Mr. DAVIN

Or did he inquire how much over the recognised ordinary cost the £15 would be as far as the inspector's uniform is concerned?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

The Deputy can worry that out for himself and let me know the result in the morning.

Mr. DAVIN

I am asking the Minister for information.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Uniforms are not supplied to officers in the Force, and, as I pointed out before, no new uniforms are being issued to men who are retiring under Article X. of the Treaty. It is felt that they can finish their period in their present clothing. That accounts for the discrepancy which Deputy Cooper harped upon between the strength of the Force and the provision made for uniforms, so that nothing very terrible is likely to happen under that head.

Major COOPER

That only covers 190, and the number is 250.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Yes, but a certain number have gone. Those who went out are giving up their uniforms, and they are now being used for recruits. Deputy Conlan asked a question about the amount paid out of the National Exchequer. He will find the amount under sub-head (L). The item of £52,000 there is from the police rate levied in the Metropolitan area.

Mr. CONLAN

Do you agree that the general taxpayer, especially in rural districts, is called upon to furnish an undue proportion of the cost of the Dublin Metropolitan Police?

Major COOPER

Does not the Dublin taxpayer have to pay for the Gárda Síochána?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Yes.

Mr. HEWAT

The farmers have it every way.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Deputy Cooper mentioned with regard to traffic that he considered 75 men inadequate and that he was quite sure that a certain amount of traffic duty was done in 1914. The position is that in 1914 no men were specially allocated for traffic duty, and such little point duty as did go on at the time was haphazard. There were no men at that time definitely allocated to the work, whereas there is now a daily call on the Force for 75 men, which may seem inadequate, but which is all that we can spare for the work out of the present strength of 1,140. I harped on that aspect, and on the increasing population, and the increasing number of streets and houses and so on rather with a view to showing the strength at the moment was on the moderate side and very much on the conservative side, and that certainly there is no extravagance in regard to it. I think I have covered practically all the points raised upon the Estimate. I would like to say generally, as in the case of the other police force, that we are satisfied with the progress that has been made in this Force, and I think there is a steady upward tendency.

The discipline and the morale of the men is extremely high, despite references made to the reduction of pay and so on. That has been contested in the way in which men are perfectly entitled to contest it, but it has not affected the efficiency of the Force or the morale of the Force, which is quite good, and there is considerable progress in a great many desirable lines, and there is a fine spirit generally in the Force. Their keenness on athletics and on all that makes for esprit de corps in a police force is something we regard with great pleasure. Generally I feel that there is good progress being made, and in the case of the new Detective Branch of this Force I am particularly pleased with the conditions there. The men have done, and are doing, fine work for the restoration of normal conditions in the capital. They have grappled with a really serious situation, and they have practically eliminated armed crime from the city. They deserve extremely well of the people of the capital and of the people of the country.

Question put and agreed to.