The Dáil is in Committee for the consideration of these amendments.
Amendment from Seanad:—
1. In Section 7 (3) the words "a period of" in line 43 deleted and the words "such period as may be prescribed, not exceeding," substituted therefor.
DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - AGRICULTURAL PRODUCE (EGGS) BILL, 1924—FROM THE SEANAD.
Mr. HOGAN
It is felt, and the traders made representations in that direction, that the specified period of 28 days in the Bill as it went to the Seanad, was unnecessary and was somewhat too rigid, and that it would be more convenient, and serve the same purpose, if it was left more indefinite.
I move—"That the Committee agree with the Seanad in the said Amendment."
Question put and agreed to.
Amendment 2:—"In Section 9 (1) the words `registration of the premises' in lines 9-10 deleted and the words `entertainment of the application by the Minister' substituted therefor."
Mr. HOGAN
Sub-section (1) of this section reads: "There shall be paid to the Minister by the person applying for the registration of any premises in the register of exporters the fee specified in the Schedule to this Act, and a payment of such fee shall be a condition precedent to the registration of the premises." The amendment suggests the deletion of the words "registration of the premises" and the substitution of the words "entertainment of the application by the Minister." It was felt that applications made by correspondence might go on for, say, two or three months, and that, under the Act, when everything was ready for registration, the applicant might withdraw. In order to guarantee the bona fides of the applicant, a preliminary fee will have to be paid before the application is even considered, and that fee is £1.
What will be the effect of the amendment supposing the application for registration is not approved? Is the deposit returned?
Mr. HOGAN
That will be in the discretion of the Minister. The idea of this is to prevent impossible applications, to prevent the consideration of applications over a very long period, which afterwards may be found on examination to be unwarranted. The fee is extremely small, and is merely to ensure that applications which have no chance of success will not be put up.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Amendment 3: "In Section 9, immediately before sub-section (2) a new sub-section inserted as follows:—
`There shall be paid to the Minister by the person applying for registration of any premises in the register of exporters the deposit specified in the Schedule to this Act on account of the first annual fee payable in respect of such premises, and the payment of such deposit shall be a condition precedent to the registration of the premises.' "
Mr. HOGAN
As the section stands, the fee is paid in advance. It was considered that in the interests of the exporters themselves it would be better to have the fee paid at the end of the year, and not in advance. As I suggested for the Butter Bill, simply a deposit of £5 should be paid for the first year, and that each year after that the fee would fall due on the 31st December. For any particular year after the first year, the fee will fall due on the 31st December of that year, and will be payable on or before the 17th March of the next year.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Amendment 4: "In Section 9 (2), immediately after the word `in' in line 11, the words `respect of' inserted."
Mr. HOGAN
That is merely a consequential amendment.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Amendment 5: "In Section 9, sub-sections (3) and (4) deleted and the following two new sub-sections substituted therefor:—
"(3) The first annual fee to be paid by the registered proprietor of any premises registered in the register of exporters shall be calculated on the quantity of eggs, ascertained in the prescribed manner, exported from such premises during the period between the completion of the registration and the end of the calendar year in which the premises were registered, and shall become due on the 31st day of December of that year, and the difference between such fee and the deposit paid on account thereof as aforesaid shall be paid by or returned to (as the case may require) the registered proprietor before the 17th day of March, in the year next following.
(4) Every subsequent annual fee shall become due on the 31st day of December in the year in respect of which such fee is payable, and shall be paid before the 17th day of March, in the year next following, and shall be calculated on the quantity of eggs, ascertained in the prescribed manner, exported from the registered premises in the year in respect of which the fee is payable."
Mr. HOGAN
The first proposed new sub-section deals with the first annual fee only, and the second sub-section deals with the subsequent annual fees. That as I have said, provides that the fee shall be paid at the end of each year and not in advance as the section as it originally stood provided.
Have these amendments, which the Minister is putting forward, been agreed to or have they been before the representatives of the trade in any way?
Mr. HOGAN
The trade itself agreed to the amount. There is no change in the amount of the fee which is still a penny per £2 worth exported. There is, however, a change in the procedure. As the Bill stood formerly, the payment was made in advance. I met the trade organisations and they complained, not very bitterly, but they made some complaint about payments in advance. They pointed out that it would mean making payments for extra book-keeping and that sort of thing. When I did meet them I made no promise whatever that we could change the procedure and we left it at that. Afterwards, in considering the Butter Bill, we contemplated having the same procedure, that is, payment in advance, and we decided to adopt this procedure in the interests of the exporters themselves. Then, in reconsidering the Egg Bill, even though it was in the Seanad we decided that we might as well give them the benefit of the change.
I take it from what the Minister has said that these amendments will be acceptable to the trade?
Mr. HOGAN
I am sure they will, but I have never put them before the trade. It is obvious I think that the trade would prefer to pay at the end of the year rather than at the beginning.
Amendment put and agreed to.
AMENDMENT 6.
In Section 9 (5) all words after the words "annual fee" in line 30 to the end of line 39 deleted, and the words "payable in respect of that year shall be calculated accordingly," substituted therefor.
Mr. HOGAN
That is consequential. Amendment put and agreed to.
AMENDMENT 7.
"In Section 10, at the end of sub-section (3), page 7, a new paragraph (e) inserted as follows:—
"(e) that the registered proprietor having made a contract for the sale of eggs to be exported from premises of which he is the registered proprietor has without reasonable cause failed or omitted to carry out such contract."
Mr. HOGAN
This amendment was also suggested by the Butter Bill. It was as a result of representations which I had from the egg trade that I began to consider this question at all or the need for such an amendment. It was as a result of representations made to me that I inserted an amendment of this character in the Butter Bill. Afterwards I made certain inquiries in regard to the effect of putting such an amendment in the Butter Bill, and after considering the matter I inserted an amendment in it to that effect. It was two members of the egg trade who put this consideration before me and made me start my inquiries on that line.
The Minister, I am sure recognises that this amendment is consequential on a section in the Butter Bill. When the Butter Bill was going through I took exception to that section and I stated my reasons at the time, reasons which I do not propose to repeat now. The objections which I then stated to the section in the Butter Bill apply to this amendment, but as the Dáil accepted the principle in the Butter Bill I do not propose to contest it to-day.
Mr. HOGAN
I have authority for believing after consulting the trade itself and the most reputable firms in the trade that every one of them will agree to this amendment, and every one of them I believe will agree that it is necessary.
I do not take exception to the amendment from the trade point of view at all. It is to the principle that I object, and not to the effect that this amendment will have on the trade. I really think it is detrimental in an Act of Parliament to introduce a section which really affects morality more than anything else and I do not think it should be necessary for this Dáil to put in a section of that sort.
Amendment put and agreed to.
AMENDMENT 8.
In Section 14, at the end of sub-section (1), page 9, a new paragraph (g) inserted as follows:—
"(g) the description of eggs which may or may not be brought on to the premises."
Mr. HOGAN
This amendment is meant to guard against the possibility of foreign eggs being brought on to premises and sold as Irish eggs. It enables us to make regulations that if foreign eggs are sold that they shall not be sold as Irish eggs. There is a danger that when Irish eggs get a reputation on the foreign market, and they are rapidly building up a reputation at the moment, that there would be a great temptation on the part of people to buy Russian eggs in great quantities and to sell them as Irish eggs on the English market. To guard against that temptation, and to safeguard the Irish egg trade from the possibility of such a contingency arising, we are taking power here to make a regulation compelling any exporter who sells foreign eggs to sell them as foreign eggs and to mark them as such.
Does not the law at present require, under the Merchandise Marks Act, that that should apply? Is not this merely an extra precaution?
Mr. HOGAN
I do not think it is.
How do these eggs come into Ireland? Will they not have to be imported first before they can be exported? And is it not on import that the eggs will become foreign?
Mr. HOGAN
Yes. Supposing an exporter runs short of Irish eggs and imports a couple of thousand Russian eggs, re-packs them, sends them to his customers in England, they will naturally take it for granted that they are Irish. He has not broken any law that I know of. That is likely to occur. It is just like foreign creamery butter which is sent from here and is sold as butter from Ireland. We do not want to leave any loophole as the reputation of Irish eggs will be gradually growing.
It seems to me that they will not bring in any other than Irish eggs. If a man deals in eggs he must automatically become a dealer in Irish eggs, solely because if he brings in other eggs he breaks the law.
Mr. HOGAN
The Deputy is partly right and partly wrong. This empowers us to make any regulations we like. We have a description. Remember, it is extremely difficult to know one egg from another. Remember that it is probable that as Irish eggs get a reputation, the temptation to mix Irish and foreign eggs will be so great that we may actually be compelled to do what the Deputy suggests we are taking power to do and say that no foreign eggs shall be brought on the premises. If we reach that stage an exporter dealing in foreign eggs would simply have to make structural alterations to his premises.
It is all right. I am not a Farmers' representative.
Mr. HOGAN
The Farmers' Union actually suggested this amendment.
Amendment put, and agreed to.
Mr. HOGAN
I move Amendment 9, which is as follows:—
In Section 14 (3) the word "or" in line 23 deleted and the word "and" substituted therefor.
I would like to know the reasons for the change, because it makes a distinct change. It is on account of this and the next amendment that I ask the Minister to consider it. The section says that the Minister may make regulations in regard to all or any of the following matters, such as testing, grading and packing. The Bill, as it went from the Dáil, reads: "tested, graded, or packed." Now the Seanad asks us to agree to an amendment saying that all eggs tested, graded and packed shall be in accordance with regulations. These regulations, however, may be only made in respect of grading or testing or packing Consequently, if only one of these regulations is made in respect to only one of these matters, according to this phraseology, if the amendments were agreed to, it would have no effect because unless they are tested, graded or packed, there is no offence. In the original form, if either or all of them were regulated, the sub-section would apply. The Minister has proceeded on the assumption that it is certain that regulations shall apply to all these things. I suggest that it is not imperative according to the Bill, and that there is no improvement, but rather the contrary, in the amendment of the Seanad. It is an important verbal alteration which may possibly bring about considerable difference in the amendment.
Mr. HOGAN
I agree with the Deputy that I do not see any great reason for it, but I do not see that it makes any difference. Surely, "all eggs tested, graded and packed" means the same thing as "all eggs tested and graded and packed." If there is any force in the Deputy's contention it was always there because the word "and" was understood.
Section 3 says that certain conditions shall be complied with before any export of eggs is allowed; that is to say, the eggs shall be tested, graded and packed in accordance with any regulations that may be made under Section 14. It is possible to make regulations affecting the matter of testing, and to make no regulations in respect of the matter of packing. You may make regulations under (A), (B), and (C), or either of them, but if you put in the word "and" in sub-section (3) it implies that you must have regulations in respect of all those things. There is no value in altering it to "and."
Mr. HOGAN
I think the Deputy is right.
Would the Minister report progress and continue the other amendments on Monday?
Mr. HOGAN
Yes, that would suit me.
Would you take amendments 9 and 10 now?
I was suggesting to report progress, and I take it a similar point arises in amendment 10.
It is not the same. It is rather a question as to what it means and the awkwardness of the phrase to be inserted.
If we report progress now, Deputy Johnson and the Minister can discuss the matter, and on Monday we can decide whether we propose to agree with the amendment. The matter can be dealt with outside the Committee as satisfactorily.
Mr. HOGAN
I move to report progress.