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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 22 Jul 1924

Vol. 8 No. 17

SPECIAL ORDERS—THURLES, BLACKROCK, AND WICKLOW ELECTRICITY SUPPLIES.

I move:—

Go gceaduítear an t-Ordú Speisialta a dhin an t-Aire Tionnscail agus Tráchtála fé sna Electricity Supply Acts, 1882 go 1919, agus fén Ordú um Choimisinéirí an Leictreachais (Aistriú Feidhmeanna), 1924, i dtaobh Baile-Cheanntair Dhúrlas Eile, i gContae Thiobrad Arann, Ordú a tíolacadh Déardaoin, 17adh Iúl, 1924.

That the Special Order made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce under the Electricity Supply Acts, 1882 to 1919, and the Electricity Commissioners (Transfer of Functions) Orders, 1924, in respect of the Urban District of Thurles, in the County of Tipperary, which was presented on Thursday, 17th July, 1924, be approved.

Question put and agreed to.

I beg to move:—

Go gceaduítear an t-Ordú Speisialta a dhin an t-Aire Tionnscail agus Tráchtála fé sna Electricity Supply Acts, 1882 go 1919, agus fén Ordú um Choimisinéirí an Leictreachais (Aistriú Feidhmeanna), 1924, i dtaobh Baile-Cheanntair na Carraige Duibhe, i gContae Bhaile Atha Cliath, Ordú a tíolacadh Déardaoin, 17adh Iúl, 1924.

That the Special Order made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce under the Electricity Supply Acts, 1882 to 1919, and the Electricity Commissioners (Transfer of Functions) Order, 1924, in respect of the Urban District of Blackrock, in the County of Dublin, which was presented on Thursday, 17th July, 1924, be approved.

Will the Minister tell us what is the purpose of this? I must confess it is one of the many sins of omission that I have not read this, although it affects the County Dublin. I am sure that the Deputies in the various other areas and all the Deputies for the County Dublin will make themselves acquainted with what is in this Order, but I confess that I have not done so, and I should be obliged if he would tell us what is in it.

I have a short memorandum here on the point, and as it is quite brief I will read the paragraph which relates to this particular Order. It is semi-historical, and in the end explains some of the purposes of the said Order. But really the Order explains itself. The Order was presented on the 17th July, and it was before Deputies for some period, and I thought it might have been appreciated by them. The point is that the Blackrock Urban District Council obtained an Electric Lighting Order in 1901 through the British Parliament. The Order was continued in force by the British Board of Trade and Electricity Commissioners, but the Council contends that it has not been in a position to proceed with the work, and that it is not in a position to do so this year. It is claimed that by giving power to transfer statutory rights possessed by the Council an arrangement may be entered into with some other local authority, or with some company or person, to provide a supply of electricity to the people of the area.

As the only alternative would appear to be the revocation of the original Blackrock Electric Lighting Order, the securing of which had involved the ratepayers in substantial expense, it has been felt right to make the Order now submitted in order to provide the local council with power to negotiate for a supply by other parties. The rights of the ratepayers of the area are adequately safeguarded by the terms of the Order as the parties to whom it is proposed to make the transfer must first be approved by the Minister, and subsequently all the terms and conditions of the deed of transfer must receive similar approval. Approval must be given to the terms and conditions of the deed of transfer, and this Order actually went before the Dáil or was made on the 26th March, 1923, but could not be approved finally until the Electricity Commissioners (Transfer of Functions Order), 1924, was made by the Executive Council on the 19th June, this year, under the provisions of the Ministers and Secretaries Act, 1924. There is one clause I would draw attention to. It is a clause definitely inserted not only in this Bill, but in every scheme for the development of power in the country. The object is to hold over all such schemes and orders of this type for incorporation in any national scheme that may afterwards arise requiring the parties on whose behalf the orders are made to take a supply of electricity in bulk from a central power station if such supply be made available, at a cost equal to or less than the local cost of generation. The arrangement of the clauses of the Order itself describes the purpose pretty well. The first clause is the short title. The second clause deals with the incorporation of the Electric Lighting (Clauses) Act, 1899. The third clause describes who the undertakers are. The next clause deals with the area of supply. The fifth clause deals with power to break up streets, etc. There is a clause as to compulsory works. There is also a clause dealing with maximum prices, the transfer of undertaking, etc. Then there is the question of the relation to the Dublin Corporation, the Dublin Tramways Co., and the Alliance and Dublin Consumers' Gas Company.

I would like to ask the Minister if he is aware or has he any knowledge in his Department that this particular local body has already made something which is tantamount to a contract with such person or persons as is specified in the Order, and if the matter has come before the attention of his Department and whether any action was taken in regard to it?

The action taken is rather general action. It is that all the terms and conditions of any deed of transfer arising out of these matters must receive the approval of the Minister, and, consequently, contracts previously made, if they come within the scope of this at all, will be brought within the terms of the order itself.

The question I was putting to the Minister was rather directed to eliciting the position as to the local body and the person with whom the contract is made or may have been made. In the event of the Minister withholding his sanction, what becomes of the position of the contract if such contract already existed in written from binding the private persons to supply, and binding the local body to the private persons to grant such power to supply?

That is purely hypothetical. I personally do not know what distinct order it is to which the Deputy is referring. All I am aware of is that this particular body has stated it was not in the position to proceed with certain work to which the Deputy refers and is not now in a position to proceed, and I cannot see how it could have entered into a binding contract while making an application of this sort, if that order be not one such as may be brought in afterwards within the scope of the terms of this Order.

The issue of this order is the result of consultations and conferences which have taken place since March of last year. It was referred to by me in the Dáil at that time, and this is the culmination of a long series of conferences and consultations.

I do not know what the number of the conferences is, but there have been all sorts of conferences, I understand, with the Urban Council, and they have put up a certain contention to us to which I have alluded, that they are not in a position to do this, that, or the other at a particular time. I presume that is the conference to which the Deputy refers.

Is this particular order limited to the district of Blackrock?

Yes, there is a special clause describing the undertakers and the area of supply, but the whole thing is in the order presented to the Dáil since the 17th of this month.

All that the Minister mentioned in his last statement was that powers were taken under the order. As I understood his statement in the event of supplies from a central authority being available at a lower rate, then this authority was bound to take that supply, and I suppose scrap its existing works. Is that the intention?

Not merely the intention, but it is the condition under which the order is made. Clause 12 reads:—"In the event of a Central Power Station being established for a district in which the Blackrock (Co. Dublin) Urban area is included, and that a supply of electricity in bulk is thereby made available to the undertakers at a rate of charge equal to or less than the cost of generation in the generating station of the undertakers, the undertakers shall take such supply from the Central Power Station."

That has been entered into with the eyes of all parties concerned open to the matter, and it is a very valuable clause, and it is not a clause that can be contended with on the ground of equity.

That is a rather drastic clause, and it might be an even more awkward clause supposing that the expenditure had been incurred with the authority and approval of the Minister for Local Government.

Deputy Good seems to be unaware that the Minister for Local Government recently set up a commission for Greater Dublin. He is obviously unaware that while certain townships are promoting a Bill for incorporation as a rival city, the Dublin Commissioners, acting as the Commissioners instead of the Corporation of the City of Dublin, wrote informing the Minister for Local Government that they did not intend to press the promotion of their Bill for the extension of the boundaries of the city pending the findings of that Greater Dublin Commission. The Order just read out by the Minister for Industry and Commerce really keeps the matter open and prevents vested interests being established and the creation of a situation which would prejudice the findings of that Commission.

With all respect to Deputy Professor Magennis, I do not think that affects the question at all. The question is this: If the local authority is not to be encouraged in this expenditure pending other enquiries, would it not be better for the Government to say so, and not place the local authority in the awkward position that they will be placed in under this Order?

I understood that the responsibility of my department was this: that they were faced with a situation in which a national power-scheme might or might not materialise. They had to take precautions beforehand. They could not hold up this Order any longer than it has been held up, and the only way out of the difficulty seems to be the incorporation of a clause of this sort which definitely gave notice and a warning to the undertakers under this Order that they would be obliged afterwards, and obliged to do what? They would be obliged to take a supply of electricity in bulk, if it is made available, at a rate equal to or less than the cost of generation in the generating station of the undertakers. I think that is quite fair and reasonable.

I understood that the Blackrock Council and the people with whom they were in communication 18 months ago did, as a matter of fact, agree that such a condition should be applied to the motion they were then seeking acceptance of. On the matter of the presentation of these Orders, the Minister quite justifiably pointed out that they were presented to the Dáil on Thursday last. Since then we had Saturday and Sunday, but Deputies were not here in vast numbers yesterday. To-day is Tuesday, and I submit that that period is not enough, if any other period would be enough, to ensure that Deputies interested would have an opportunity of reading these Orders. I am quite sure that if I had sought this Order yesterday or this morning that I would have found some of the other Deputies representing the County Dublin in possession of it, so that my chance of getting an opportunity to read it, would have been very small indeed. I submit that matters of this kind should be circulated, because they are of considerable importance. This is an Order which has to be specifically approved of, and I would urge that a matter of this kind should be circulated rather than that Deputies should merely receive notification to the effect that it had been laid on the Table.

I am very anxious to get an answer to the question that I put to the Minister. This is a matter that is regarded as of some importance in the locality. Strange as it may seem, I have read the Order, and I have read it with some care, and I have failed to find in it any answer to the question I have put. The facts are these: The Blackrock Council did some time ago enter into negotiations with a person. That person alleges that documents held by him from the Council constitute a contract, and that contract only requires some Order to be made by the Minister in order that this person may be able to enforce this contract. That is the position. What I want to know from the Minister is whether this Order does purport to confirm that thing that is alleged to be a contract, and whether this Order is directly consequent upon these earlier negotiations by which this person or company will have passed over to it the powers to create such an electricity supply. In other words, this is a general Order, and what I want to know is whether this general Order does empower a specific contract or alleged contract which is supposed to exist?

The Minister will now conclude.

Before concluding, I would just like to answer the point raised by Deputy Johnson about the circulation of these Orders.

In the absence of the circulation of the Orders to which Deputy Johnson refers, if it would meet the Deputy I am quite prepared to postpone the taking of the remaining two Motions for a day or two in order that Deputies may have a better opportunity of reading these special Orders and the terms and provisions in them. I do not press at all for the taking of these Motions to-day.

With regard to the point raised by Deputy Johnson the documents have been presented in pursuance of Section 26 of the Electricity Supply Act of 1919. I take it that it is a statutory obligation to present these documents and make them available for Deputies. It will be easy to make arrangements by which Deputies interested could get copies in the Office when the documents appear on the Order Paper. It might not be found necessary to circulate them to every Deputy, as they concern purely local matters.

I do not see that anything is to be gained by delaying the taking of these Motions to-day. I read this Order on Friday last, and I must confess that I have almost forgotten it now. I am sure that if the taking of it is postponed for another day I shall have forgotten it entirely.

Is it agreed that the Order should be taken now?

Agreed.

The Minister will now conclude.

It appears that the only point I have to answer is the one raised by Deputy Figgis. This is not a general Order. It is a special Order, and is so entitled, I believe. I cannot understand what the Deputy refers to, because I must still abide by the statement I made here, that it has been felt right to make this Order so as to provide a local authority with power to negotiate for a supply by other parties. In the absence of this Order there was no such power, and how anything approaching a contract could be entered into without this Order or something corresponding to it I fail to see. I cannot answer the question because I do not see how the fact alleged could have arisen.

Question put, and agreed to.

I beg to move:— Go gceaduítear an t-Ordú Speisialta a dhin an tAire Tionnscail agus Tráchtála fé sna Electricity Supply Acts, 1882 go 1919, agus fén Ordú um Choimisinéirí an Leictreachais (Aistriú Feidhmeanna), 1924, i dtaobh Baile-Cheanntair Chill Mhanntáin, i gContae Chill Mhanntáin, Ordú a tíolacadh Déardaoin, 17adh Iúl, 1924.

That the special order made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce under the Electricity Supply Acts, 1882 to 1919, and the Electricity Commissioners (Transfer of Functions) Order, 1924, in respect of the Urban District of Wicklow, in the County of Wicklow, which was presented on Thursday, 17th July, 1924, be approved.

Question put and agreed to.
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